Extreme Triathlons with Flora Colledge

Foreign.

I'm Charlie Redding. And I'm Laura Sidall and this is the tribathlon podcast.

This can also just be a way to get to some really cool places and see them, experience them, and have triathlon almost as an adventure. And I think the special part of an X tri or almost any organized race is that, you know, you've got the adventure and you don't have to figure out the route. Some people have done that for you. They've been like, look, this is Montenegro. You've never been here before. This is the coolest route. Do it.

That was Flora College and this episode is Extreme Triathlons. Hey, Sid, how you doing?

I'm very well, thank you, Charlie. I've had my coffee this morning. I did forget that we were 15 minutes later, so I'm slightly kicking myself for not claiming that extra 15 minutes of sleep this morning. But. Yeah, no, all good, all good here. How's things with you?

Yeah, all good, all good. We. We've had the sun shining, so I've been getting in some. I've been able to get into some decent rides and running's going well. So yeah, yeah, all good here.

I did see my sister posted a picture on. On social media saying, oh, there were some strange shadows on the grass or some strange dark patches on the grass today. And this yellow thing in the sky. Oh, it looks like we had some sunshine and casting shadows. So I think. I think you've had some pretty rough weather of late, so maybe that's a dare. We speak too soon and say spring is on the way, but hopefully there's light at the end of the tunnel for the UK winter.

It definitely feels like that. And I think there's. I think that with it has come a lot more positivity in the people I speak to. It just makes such a difference when. When people can, you know, go out and enjoy a walk or a run or a bike ride or whatever it is, and the sun is shining. So, yeah, no, all good here. And you're getting pretty well practiced at getting up early, aren't you? I didn't I see you out skiing again under the moonlight or something?

Yeah, we had a. So we kind of have to get up to get to the ski slope, sort of. We have to be up and off the slope before the lift opens. So the lifts open at 8:30. So we go and we skin up the slope and then ski down and we went. Yesterday, we did two laps, two laps yesterday, which I wasn't sure whether I was regretting, suggesting that we did two laps when I was going up for the second time, but it was amazing. Yeah. So we, what time did we leave? We left town at 4:45. So 4:00am get up kind of thing. 4:45 we left so that we were hitting, getting onto the bottom of the Snow at about 6:30 and it was about, I don't know, 45 minute walking up and it's about a five minute walk, ski down if that. But it was awesome. Yeah, it was. I think we've had sort of that full moon of late, which I did see somewhere was a sign that spring is on its way. And then it was just beautiful. So last, I mean I went last week and it was still amazing but it was quite cloudy so you didn't get amazing views. And then this week it was just blue sky. So as soon as the sun started to rise and stuff and you just got that amazing light and then the sun hit the top of the mountains and it was just. And we went. The first time we went up there was no one else on the slopes bar a few of the, you know, the workers that were going to the different sort of ski chairlifts and things and checking the slopes. And then we skied down with Dakota the dog, he was flying down the slopes as well. And then he, we put him in the car for the second lap and went up again. So yeah, it was a. And then yeah, all done by 8:30 back in the car, stopped for a breakfast bagel on the way home and back in Boulder by 10:30 and kickstart to the week.

Fantastic. And is it, do you think that's good strength trait? Skinning up the hill, good strength training?

Well, it definitely had my highest 90 minute heart rate for a while but then I have been, I have. We are at altitude, remember. So you know, we're at sort of 10,000 or so feet and going up to over 11,000 and. And stuff on the slopes, I mean, yeah, it's just a different kind of fitness and it's just that. But across I've always wanted to try like the cross country skiing so the sort of flatter, endurance based skiing of that. So I've never done it. I've always kind of. I think it's something I would enjoy. I'm really enjoying the skinny again. I just haven't done anything like that for ages. It's just something different from having been in a bit of a rut of with the injuries and stuff. And it's yeah a good. I kind of said like when I knew with Lockdowns that I was going to be based in Spain over winter. I got really excited because I was like, for once I'll be in winter I can go skiing and you know, try the cross country skiing, you know, all complementary to, to training. And then of course I got injured and stuff and so I hadn't been able to even enjoy those elements of winter. So now in Boulder and I've got that opportunity, I've just, it's been really great to do something a little bit, a little bit different. And I mean, yeah, I think there's, there's fitness gains, there's length. I mean it's slightly different, different movement of muscles. I definitely felt as you're skiing, I felt a little bit weaker in that lateral motion, which was interesting because I tend to think I was pretty strong in that area anyway. But yeah, I mean I think there's that you're always going to get a benefit when you walk up a. Walk up a mountain at elevation for a couple of K and then ski down and the legs are, the legs burn. Even though it's a short skied out. I'm trying to catch my. I went with my coach, Julie Dibbons and she's, she obviously does it a lot more than me and she's still ridiculously fit. So the second time, second time up, she's slowly sort of creeping away from me and I'm like, just, just count, just keep go through that. Counting like 1, 2, 3. As we said, don't look at the top, just look in front of you. And then skiing down. It's like I think I said before, you know, I haven't skied for, gosh, 10 years or so. So sort of the legs are coming back to me, but she just sort of whizzes down super fast and I'm like, I don't seem to be going as fast as her.

I'd be petrified that I'd be doing myself some damage at some point on the way down the slope.

Yeah.

And you know what, that's why I've not skied really since I've done professional or triathlon and a professional because you just one. I've never been in winter and that much anyway, but to, yeah, just that fear. I remember when growing up and when I was playing netball and athletics, I was still had that fear that I was going to injure myself when I went skiing. So yeah, I hadn't done it for, for so long and yeah, I did, I did have those fears like the day before we go of Going, gosh, am I rewriting the headlines of being injured again? But I think, you know, there's lots of things that we might get injured doing just in day to day life. And I think the problem is probably from a mental health benefit. It outweighed, outweighed things and we're not doing it, you know, we're not backcountry skiing. I certainly wouldn't be any good at that at the moment. And it's all, yeah, touch wood. Okay, so far, fantastic.

No, well, that's. I know that. I know. I mean, I'm not a keen skier at all, but I've been skiing a few times and know that it's, you know, actually my worst injury skiing. I just had a couple of falls beforehand and then you're kind of. You've got it in your head, haven't you? And as soon as you're skiing in a negative way, that's when you're likely to do yourself the most damage, isn't it?

So it is true. Yeah. And it's, it's also weird. It's like, it's something I noticed, like as getting older, you get more fearful of the risks involved and stuff, whereas I think any younger you kind of just not. Well, can be blase, but it doesn't, doesn't make as big an impact. But yeah, so definitely, I mean, it's hard to say. I know everyone. I feel bad saying anything about it because I know everyone in the UK is probably like super, super frustrated because they haven't been able to do it, go out and do anything and things like that, where I was pretty fortunate being out here and being able to do that, I think.

Yeah, no, fantastic. And, and coming onto races. So my, my next race was going to be the Outlaw that's just been pushed back by three or four weeks, which is a bit of a pain because it means that I've now got two races in within two weeks. But hey, I'll just, I'll have to.

That's all right. I, I ended up with three races in three weekends in September and September in my race calendar this year, and two of them were full distances, so that a bit of a. Bit of a slightly.

Yeah, that's not great. But you're also slightly more equipped to deal with it than I am, I think. Yeah, but, yeah, so. So I think so. Outlaws moved back. Anything else been, you know, what's, what's happening on the racing calendar?

Well, I think, I think we're just starting to see those races in Europe get. Getting pushed Back we saw, I think Lanzarote was May, that's been pushed back to July. Mallorca was May. I think that's been pushed back to October I think now. Yeah, Outlaw we saw actually unfortunately, Ironman New Zealand and where New Zealand have been pretty, pretty Covid. Safe, I would say for the last year. And it was Ironman New Zealand. Topo was meant to happen on this Saturday 6th March and unfortunately last weekend they had a community outbreak in Auckland. Now when we say that, we're talking like one or two cases at the moment and they shut the city down and the country down, which meant that unfortunately Ironman New Zealand can't take place this weekend, which is super. I mean there's nothing you can do about it for sure. But obviously really hard on all those athletes that have been preparing for weeks and months to do a full distance to get within like a week of racing and then have it. Have it postponed. And that's been. But the team have been working really hard and so they've only. They've pushed it back to the 27th of March. So that's actually not. Not too bad, I don't think. But yeah, I mean, it was a shame to see that and then. So, yeah, I think we're just seeing a few of those races in Europe as things don't quite get back on track as quickly as we were hoping.

I think it looks like. It looks like from sort of June onwards. Yeah, we can hopefully do it. But certainly the Outlaw was sort of talking about, you know, it's the kind of communal facility, the toilets, all that sort of stuff. But also I don't know whether it's linked to whether they can do a pro race with the current legislation at the date that they've got. But yeah, it's challenging. But, you know, I hope, you know, as long as we all get to do some races, I think we'll be happy. And if we've had to kind of juggle things around a little bit, well, you know, so be it.

Yeah, I think so. I think people just want to get back racing now and I think like you said, there is that bit of light at the end of the tunnel. There's still things being pushed back. You know, there's various rumors over here in the States. People think they're all going to be. Or the people that want to be vaccinated, I should probably say they reckon it's all going to be done by June or July. Like I've got friends who are not frontline workers, not Older as such. And they're due, they're getting vaccinated this week and next week, which just baffles me, to be honest. But it is state by state and that's. Yeah, I mean, that's, that's the process. So I also, I know as well over here, like friends who are teachers and have been sort of keeping things going. I know that they've had their first vaccines, which is quite, you know, that's quite exciting. I know the uk, I think it was, was it July now? It said that all adults will be. Have their first vaccine by something like that.

I can't remember the exact date.

I still need to work out where I. Where I have to go to get mine. Not sure which country I fall under.

I wonder whether in time we'll be getting. We'll. We'll almost need it to be able to travel, to be able to.

I think so. I think a lot of, I mean, like, you, you know, like if you were going to. I remember going to South Africa, not south to Africa to climb like Kilimanjaro and stuff like that, and you had to have so many vaccines before you went there. I kind of feel that this might be just one of those on the list of going before you travel, you have to have this vaccine. But if that's the case, it's also got to be made available to everybody to be able to do that because, you know, I'm pretty sure most of the UK are desperate to get away on holiday and get out to places, but if the vaccine isn't available for them, just to go and rock up and have it booked before that holiday, then. Yeah, it's kind of difficult.

You've got to sit tight, wouldn't you? Yeah, yeah. Well, I'm hope. I'm hoping my. I'm still hopeful my holiday plans and my Ironman tiling plans will be able to take shape. Interesting. I wanted to mention, I was reading. I just finished another book this week while I was out on the bike actually, in the sunshine. It's a book. It's the latest book by Matthew Syed, who is a brilliant author.

Yeah, he's. I love his work.

Yeah. So this is, this is his book, Rebel Ideas, which is fantastic. I loved bounce and Black box thinking, but this just, it just is great at getting you thinking around so that it kind of opens around the theme of, of how the CIA didn't anticipate 911 because of a lack of diversity. And then it looks at the power of the team and team thinking and how we Homo sapiens evolve out evolved Neanderthals because of our ability to kind of socialize and communicate and kind of learn from others experience. There was one really interesting chapter which was talking about kind of the danger of averages. And the story he talks about is a series of. There were war planes, I think it was 1950s, but I might be wrong. And they were finding that a lot of pilots were crashing these particular planes and yet they couldn't really identify a problem with the plane or the pilots making a mistake. And an engineer ended up working out that they designed this cockpit with all the average kind of height, weight, arm length in mind. But of course no one pilot was the average. You know, they all had slightly different things. And then. And so he literally just made the cockpit really flexible and suddenly they eliminated most of the crashes. And then he starts talking the same chapter, he starts talking about nutrition and they just started working out that really, you know, my good list might be sushi and avocados and all that sort of stuff, but actually my good list could be, you know, what causes my. Keeps my blood sugar nice and flat. Could cause. Could actually be the bad list for somebody else and could cause those. Those spikes in sugar. And they did an example. I did a test with white bread versus sourdough and you know, proper homemade sourdough versus cheap white bread. For some people the sourdough was obviously the good thing and didn't cause a spike. And white bread did for other people completely the opposite way round. And so I just thought, it's really interesting is a company called Day 2, which actually, annoyingly I've done some research. They won't help people in the UK at the moment, but they will basically, through a blood test and a stool sample, give you your good list, your bad list. But it's. It's a level of kind of nutrition. We've obviously got Claire Fudge's interview coming up in a couple of weeks, which I've already recorded, so I won't be asking about this, but we've got that episode coming up in a couple of weeks. But have you. How much you know, how bespoke a nutrition plan do you work with. Have you read up much on this?

And I mean, I think nutrition is very individual, like completely individual of what works for some people. What works, you know, we. There's a lot of research about, again, it's different between males and females, but even within that, I think the feet, like, I mean, that doesn't surprise. I mean, I love Michael side's work. I wrote down. I'll have to go and read the book. Although my, my tally on book reading is a bit slow at the moment this year. But yeah, I, I mean I, I, interestingly enough, I work with Claire Fudge, but we just started working together a few months ago. It's definitely an ongoing relationship. You know, it's, it's also tricky for me like because of traveling and stuff and then being in other people's houses and what food can you get or what do you, can you prepare and things like that and then fitting, fueling it around your training and you know, I guess fueling around training, but then what are your goals? So, I mean, I think, I think training food is very individual nutrition plans. And also, yeah, I've in the past been diagnosed with impaired glucose tolerance. So, you know, at that point I was meant to be taking tablets and on like a low GI diet. Um, but then at the same time several people have said, oh, that was a load of rubbish, you should never have been diagnosed with that. So it's, it's a whole minefield to, to navigate through. And that's where, and there's so many different, I'm going to say diets, I think that's probably the wrong word, but different eating plans and habits you can follow and, but it is a bit, I think it is a bit sort of finding that one that works for you. It's a bit more individual.

Certainly the people I've interviewed, you know, you've got people certain, there's certain people out there that are renowned, particularly ultra runners that are renowned for working on a, on a no car. No or low carb fat carb basis and you know, high fat and burning fat. And yet there's a whole lot of other research that says actually that's just, you know, most of that is rubbish. And, and yet you can't dispute the fact that some of the top, a couple of the top ultra runners whose names escape me at the moment work purely on a, on a keto basis. And so it's, it's about, it made me just think that actually what we need is something like this Day two approach where you can actually kind of speed up the learning journey and say, well, look, based on your, on your gut, your, you know, your biome and also your blood, these are the things that are likely to be bad and these are the things that are likely to be good. I just thought it was really interesting.

There's also, I think a company, is it called Super Sapiens or something like that, which it's A patch that you wear on your arm.

Oh, yes, I've seen these on. You see athletes.

Yeah.

So I know they spot, I know they work with the BMC team and I think a few other athletes have got them and worn them and I think it does like real time blood glute sugar, like blood blood sugar levels, so your glucose levels and so you can see instantly if you have a pastry, a bagel or something like that, you can then see if it, you know, how much or if it does spike and stuff like that. So that's quite interesting to look into as well.

Oh, brilliant. I will do some research on that and maybe next week we can chat more about Super Sapiens or something along those lines. So let's move on to the interview with Flora College. In a world where a normal ironman just isn't tough enough, Flora College excels the extreme tri races, which is include iconic events like the Norseman, the Swissman, Patagon man, all in spectacular parts of the world. And Flora College regularly wins and podiums at these incredible events. But what does it take to do that? I wanted to get to know more about the logistics of these sort of point to point races in spectacular parts of the world, but also how she deals with practical things like the cold. You know, I'm, I'm a big Jesse when it comes to the cold and so racing these incredible distances in, you know, starting with a really cold swim, I just wanted to know more about that and then also what it takes to organize your crew and, and really what it takes to win an extreme triathlon. So, Flora, welcome to the Triathathlon podcast. Really pleased that you could join us and really looking forward to chatting to you and finding out more about extreme triathlons. So for those people that don't know much about you, do you want to tell people a bit about how you got into triathlon and what sort of events you're known for and the successes you've had on that journey?

Yes, I'm very happy to. And thanks for the intro. I got into triathlon really quite late. Maybe some people will think it's not late, but for me and for other people who've kind of gone the professional triathlon direction, it certainly feels like it was. I didn't do my first triathlon until I was 28 and up until I was about 24 or 5, I had no interest in any kind of competitive sport at all. I could swim a little bit and I did some swimming growing up, but what I was really interested in as an adolescent and teenager was dance, actually, and I was in musicals and things like that, which I really enjoyed. And then I just did a bit of jogging and things to keep fit when I was at university, but I didn't really enjoy it at all. And then one day I was just jogging and I just suddenly decided it just somehow suddenly in that one moment, it switched from I have to jog to I could run. Just transformation occurred. I have no idea where from, but this kind of, oh, I have to do my 30 minutes to stay healthy suddenly became, it could be an hour. How far can I go? How far could I get? And out of nowhere, this discovery of running kind of came about. And that was when I was about 23, 3 or 24, I think. And from then on, I was just hooked on running and I took it really seriously and I sort of. I was never great, but I did all right. I moved to Switzerland, to Basel, and I was able to win the Basel marathon, which is not crazy competitive, but it was all right.

Amazing. What was that? What was your marathon time?

Oh, it was 3:15. So it was nothing. Brilliant. But it was a hilly course. But yeah, no, I mean, but you know, I trained and I'd done it and it seemed like it was going well, but I mean, I think just like so many people and triathletes, I just kept on getting injured and probably I was just trying to do way too much too soon, maybe just making training, nutrition mistakes, that kind of thing, but I just kept on getting injured and so I was kept on having to go swimming anyway as cross training. And in Basel, everyone commutes with a bike. So I sort of thought like, oh, yeah, I can ride a bike. How hard can the bike part be? And so I just decided I'll just try triathlon. And as soon as I started trying to do some brick training sessions, like doing a bit of a session on the bike and then running, I kind of realized I can run just as fast off the bike as normally. So it seemed like it just kind of fit my physique or physiology quite well. And then I did my first race, which was this absolutely tiny one. And as I say, by then I was 28 and I was really bad at it, but I loved it. It was so enjoyable coming from this pure running where you just, you know, you start running and then you keep running and then you cross the line and that's it. To triathlon, where you suddenly had to get changed in the middle of it and remember to eat and remember to drink and then get changed Again and how do I do the transition? And it felt like you always had something else to get better at. And there was always another bit of the race left where you could do, where you could make up some ground if something hadn't gone well. And so I just loved it. And fairly soon after that I just decided I wanted to get as good as I could again almost out of nowhere and had this idea I think I could be a pro. And looking back I was like, you shouldn't have thought that back then. I was so bad. And it took me a really long time to kind of get to where I am now and build it up. And I very much sort of went in a different direction than I expected. I thought back then that I'd be good at short distances, which is really not the case at all. But over time, kind of continuing to do more races, I discovered that there was this race format called extreme Triathlon and I just saw a couple of pictures of what these races were. I think I saw the ferry picture of Norseman that everyone knows and heard about the conditions and how few people get to do it and what was entailed. And I just thought I have to do that. It just sounded so brilliant. And then I started to discover that there were these extreme triathlons were starting to spring up all over the world and oh, there's one in Switzerland where I live and that ended up being the first long distance I ever did. And that's sort of the racing I'm known for now and that I've been able to become good at. And that's the direction that triathlon has taken me.

Amazing. And so your first Ironman distance triathlon was an extreme triathlon?

Yes.

That's certainly jumping into the deep end, isn't it? And what was the longest triathlon you'd done before that? Had you done a half Ironman or.

I'd done a half, yes. And I had also done this thing that probably not many people necessarily outside of Switzerland know, but I'd done the Powerman Duathlon Long distance World Championships in Surfingen and that's pretty long. That's a 10k run, 150k bike and a 30k run. So you're out there for a while. So that was kind of quite a good stepping stone. But yeah, I definitely didn't do a traditional Ironman, you know, Ironman brand or challenge or anything before getting started with Swissman. And it ended up being a much longer day than it should have been as well.

So how did you train for that first ever Extreme Ironman. You know, did you. What did you do to get yourself ready to be able to finish that? And how long did it take?

So the training, and this will always be a theme with my training group. So I'm trained by Robin Haywood, who is the kind of assistant coach to Brett Sutton. And we don't really do a lot of training for particular courses. So I never really go and train loads in mountains before I'm going to do an extreme triathlon or anything like that. So it's a lot of work on the turbo. Kind of short, intense hill repeats with running and biking. And then our swimming is just sort of always a lot and always hard, basically. But it's. Yeah, I really couldn't say. There's this really specific training I do that's different from everyone else because I do X tri. It's very similar to what all the athletes in that group do in terms of workouts. And Swissman is one of the longer X tries because it's got a lot of climbing meters. And the problem the first year I did it, my first X tri, was that there had been a couple of accidents, road accidents that stopped all the traffic on the course, and that meant that none of the support cars could really get through. And so I ended up getting to the second transition, ready to go on the run, and none of my stuff was there. And so I kind of called the crew and was like, where are you? And they're like, we're not going anywhere. And I was like, okay, this is not great. And they were like, yeah, your day is probably over. Sorry. And I just sort of sat there for a bit and I was like, well, there's nothing. Like, I'm not injured, so I don't think my day is over. I'll get there somehow. So I was about to set off, I think I didn't want to do it in my bike shoes, and I didn't want to do it barefoot because I thought that would really damage my feet. But I was sort of walking around trying to figure out what to do, and this guy in the crowd just gave me his shoes and was like, good luck.

Did he get them back?

I don't know. I hope so. I left them at the lost and found in the finish line, and I hope he got them back, but I'll never know. But so I set off with these shoes, and they were even my size, and this bottle from the bike. And I didn't really have any food, but I was like, oh, I'll figure it out. On the way. And this was like the full marathon. And so I wasn't very fast. But I remember the crew did finally catch up to me just before the final climb. And I was so in this mood of, like, we must keep going. Even though they showed up and they had my shoes, I was like, I'm not changing the shoes.

Let's just go.

And so that took me that day, took me about 16 hours or something, but we finished amazing. And the next year I was able to come back and win it. And that was so much more special because of all the stuff I had to go through before.

And what was the winning time then? If you did it in 16 hours.

The first time, the winning time that year, what was your.

What was your time?

Oh, the winning time the next year? Oh, I think it was something like 13 and a half hours.

Wow.

So it helped having the shoes.

But if ever there was a. An example of the wonderful community that is triathlon, there is it, isn't it? You know, random strangers giving you their shoes off their feet to help you get through.

The organizers were doing everything to make it possible for us to finish. I think, like, if I hadn't had those shoes, they were calling some running shop in some town and they were like, can you just bring us shoes and we'll pay for them later? Loads of shoes. So they were doing everything they could, and it was really brilliant. Even though it was really hard at the time because I sort of didn't really have the day I wanted to. Having that be the first experience absolutely meant that every race I went to after that, I was like, no matter what happens, I'll finish. I'll be okay. Get worse than that.

So you won Swissman at your second attempt. Tell us what you've done since then and your greatest successes.

So, yeah, I won Swissman the second attempt the next year. And that was kind of my breakout year in a way, because four weeks before that, I won the age group, won the duathlon European Championships. And then I think three weeks after Swissman, I won the age group long course triathlon World Championships. And then a couple of weeks after that, I was third at Norseman. And then I got my first ITU elite start in Thorfingen. And that went quite well, too. I was sixth, which for me there was really good. So it was just this year of result after result after result and pretty close together. Yeah, really close together. Because I kind of planned the whole season. And then I got into Norseman because I got in via the lottery that first time. Because I hadn't really done anything before. And so I just turned up as this sort of unknown athlete there and it wasn't planned at all. And then I just got the slot and I saw the season and I was like, I'm sure it'll be fine. And so then that, that year kind of qualified me for the pro license. And then the year after that I won Swissman again. I was second Norseman and I won Patagon Man. So it was a really another great year.

Amazing. And so you've done all of these incredible extreme triathlons, which I'm going to come back to because I really want to know more about them. But have you done a normal Iron Man?

Yeah, I did one like after I did that first Swiss Man. A few weeks later I did Ironman in Switzerland and I just didn't really like it. I wasn't good at it. And that year I wasn't very fit anyway for a lot of reasons. But I just, you know, I really didn't enjoy the experience that much. It didn't do very much for me.

So what is it about these? I mean, because you're obviously covering the same distance but with much, much more climbing over a longer period of time because it's so much more difficult. What is it about these extreme triathlons that a you love and why is it, do you think you're better at them than a traditional Ironman?

I think what I love about it is, visually it's just incredible. I mean, you're in these wonderful locations and you're very much sort of on your own out there. Sometimes you're not seeing another athlete. I mean, I've done kind of hundreds of kilometers of the bike course and not seen anyone else because there's only 250 people out there stretched over this point to point distance. I feel that the more challenging and a bit out there a race is, the more I enjoy it. Because when the race is sort of doable and it's just about being as fast as possible, there's a lot of ways to fail. In a way it's like you almost won't be happy with anything but a really fast time or a really good finish or this or that. But with an xtri, your time is almost meaningless because of how challenging the conditions could be. It's just about rising above them. And yeah, I want to do well and be competitive, but the crazier it is, the easier it is also to just switch off of that competitive. It has to be about the ranking mentality. And just be like, I've just got to get through this somehow. And I think the spirit of it is just so special. It's so personal because you've got this little organizational team and this small group of athletes, but then you've all brought your crews with you and the crews kind of travel along with the race. So that's this really special aspect of it as well. And I think maybe I do well at it because I enjoy it. I think that always helps. But I think the format is just. It rewards people who can be a bit patient and calm and kind of meet out their energy well until the end and be strong at the end. And that's maybe the only natural talent I have in triathlon. I have to work for everything else, but that I can do quite well. And I think that is rewarded in extreme triathlon.

Fantastic. And I definitely want to come back to this whole how to crew, how your crew help you, because that is again a whole unknown for me. You know, it's. That's just a completely different element with where, where you introduce the point to point aspect. But before we do that, I'd really like to. You've done Swissman, you've done Norseman, you've done Patagon, man. What other extreme triathlons have you done?

Or.

And what makes all of these are different, aren't they? So what makes each of these unique? So that people can sort of think, you know, oh, I'd like to do that one. That sounds amazing. Or so what makes them unique?

Well, those are the only ones I've done. They're actual official X Tri World Tour races and I was hoping to do more in 2020 but didn't happen. So we'll see if it happens.

I can't think why, but.

Yes, I know but. And so they're all. I think they all follow a similar format in that they have kind of, you know, they're this point to point format a lot of the time. Not always. They usually got a lot of climbing meters in there. They usually try and go for a mountain pass on the run, at least in some way. If it's not the finish line, it's in there. And then a fair amount of climbing on the bike as well. And just overall tougher conditions. And apart from that, some of them are kind of in hot countries. I think there's one in Morocco, one in Spain. But most of them are kind of a little bit known for being colder. So that's why they're similar. But they're all unique because they put you into the wildest landscape that the host country has to offer, really. And you really see some absolutely stunning views and stunning scenery, if you can enjoy it at the time. I always remember that actually in Patagonia, it was so incredible and I got to enjoy it on the run, but the bike was so tough and the last 30 kilometers was sort of this huge headwind and an uphill and really bad road surface. So you're just sort of in the time trial position, barely moving. And I was going along, going along, going along. And I finished the race and we were driving back and I was just looking around, I was like, I didn't see any of this, and these mountains and huge fields. And I was like, this is all new.

So does that mean that part of the adventure is the experience around the actual event? If you can't enjoy the amazing environment you're going into during the event, sometimes I'm sure you're enjoying it some of the time. But does that mean it kind of. It's all part of the trip, is part of the magic?

Yeah, I think that's. That's absolutely true. And, you know, depending on your goals in the race and what kind of athlete you are, I think before the race, you, to whatever degree, you might be kind of shutting yourself off from that a little bit, you know, trying to rest a lot and just get ready for the race. But I think that's maybe something nice about Extreme Triathlon as well. But everyone kind of lives the spirit of the race a little bit, even in the days leading up to it. I don't think you have these super professional athletes who are. Who are coming there to lock themselves away and not experience anything of the country. They're kind of really getting involved with it and experiencing it all as well. And I think you can still have a good race. You can have a great race. When you've done that, and that's a really nice part of it, you do get very immersed in the place where you are, and they're really just in these fantastic locations.

Fantastic. So with the three events that you've done, then just very briefly, kind of pick out what makes each special. What is. I mean, you refer to the infamous ferry jump from the Norseman, but just maybe there's one or two things from each race that you think that's the reason why somebody should pick out that race to go and do it.

I mean, I think Norseman, it's the legendary. It's the first, it's the one everyone knows about, you know, it's incredibly difficult to get into that race, but I think it's still worth everyone, everyone trying through that lottery system because it's really the extreme triathlon. And that's probably the one most of all, where we've got all these kind of iconic images of it. If that's the ferry jump or if that's that finish line crossing where everyone just of collapses.

Because they've essentially just been climbing for the last however many miles, haven't they?

Yeah. And I mean, I don't know, there's not much footage of it because I don't think many photographers are getting there. But you're not just going up a hill, you're sort of scrambling over these giant rocks for 4km and it's really, really hard. And you see this tower for miles and miles and miles. Like you can see it from 20km away, this massive hill, and you're just sor. Like, I have to go up there. So that's the Norseman thing. Swissman is incredibly beautiful. I think Swissman is the one for me that really has the kind of mountain element of it. You have these very clear, like, up this mountain, down this one, up this one, down this one. Whereas Norseman, you just sort of. You go up, but then you're on a plateau and then there's the mountain at the end. But Swissman is clearly, we're in Switzerland, we're climbing mountains and we're going to finish on one. And even though it's slower, the course really carries you along. It's very, very rolling. So it's kind of even nice on the run in a way, because it takes you through all these different landscapes and that's a really special thing. And then Patagonia is just stunningly beautiful, but also brutally tough. And the organizers, in the best possible way, have no mercy, because I just remember the water there. Everyone was always talking about the water temperature. How cold is it going to be? How cold? No, they won't let us swim. And every other race, including Norseman, I mean, if the water gets below 12 degrees centigrade, they would either cancel it or shorten it. And here it was sort of 10 degrees. And I just always remember the chief organizer being like, oh, great, well, we can do the whole swim then. Have fun. No question of shortening it. No, this is fine. You'll just deal with it. And it was impeccably organized, but it was just like. Well, yeah, you said you came to do something extreme. There you go. That was brilliant as well.

Fantastic. And what an amazing Part of the world that must be to explore. I've got a couple of friends that went and did that. Well, it must have been in the year that you won it, actually. And, yeah, they just. Absolutely. They had a blast for, like, two weeks they were down there, I think. Just incredible. So of the other extreme triathlon events that are out there, what are the ones that are really on your bucket list? The ones that you go, well, that's, you know, that's a really iconic one. I really want to do that. Or, you know, like the Morocco one that you mentioned, that would be introducing heat, which I know you're not a huge fan of. So which ones do you really like the idea of doing?

I mean, in one way, it would be cool to say I did them all, but in another way, I look at the Morocco one and I think, well, maybe not.

That's the one that is not so appealing.

Maybe it's dry heat or something. Maybe I'd be okay. Celtman. I absolutely would love to do. Hoping I can do it this year. My mother's side of the family is from Scotland, so it has a bit of a. Not exactly a home feeling, but sort of. And I think there, the. The element of cold, the terrain is absolutely the kind of thing I love. The bike is even longer. I think it's 200km, but just the kind of foggy, gray, damp. Like the first triathlon I ever won, it was when it was snowing. So I just love that kind of thing.

Is that because you embrace it or just other people hate it?

Both. No, I think it's just.

I don't know.

I mean, I just don't. I've never felt like, oh, my body works less well because it's cold. I've always just felt like, oh, well, this is bracing. Might run a bit faster. It's never bothered me. And then I think, yeah, to some degree, it does get to people mentally, and I. Fine, yeah. But at the same time, I've been on the other side of it when it's unexpectedly hot and it's really not gone my way. And I would really love to kind of at least mentally get a grip on that more so that I could. Maybe my body will never work as well in the heat, but I can kind of give it my best.

Yeah. I'm not sure Scottish blood is designed to work in the heat, is it?

No, exactly. So, yeah, definitely. Kelpman. There's a new one it hasn't even happened yet that takes place in Nepal, and it kind of himalaya and that, again, is absolutely. I've always, always dreamed of going there. My father was always talking about that. He was a mountain climber and so absolutely love that. I'm not sure if that would be possible this year, just with travel issues, but definitely that. And then there's the Black Lake race in Montenegro, which just looks stunning, and I just would like to get the overall win at that race, and I think that would be possible. That's also on the list.

I think, you know, there can't be anybody listening to this going well, maybe except the Scotland one. For any. For any Brits that people aren't going well, that'd be an amazing place to go and do a triathlon within. I think I understand what you're saying about the mainstream Ironman events and maybe not being quite your thing and there being thousands of competitors rather than hundreds, but. But in their defense, they can still take you to some amazing parts of the world, which makes for the experience. But this type of triathlon is extreme in the competition, but also in the parts of the world it's taking you to, isn't it?

Absolutely. Absolutely. It's just. Yeah. I'm not saying they're not beautiful, traditional races, and there's not just Iron man, there's all these other types of triathlon that exist, and some of them can be absolutely stunning places. But I do think that the nature of how alone you can be out there and just how tricky some of the elements of the triathlon are to get through gives it something special. Because I think another part of some races, some triathlons, where there's at least more competitors on the course is you've always got the kind of element of always drafting, going to play a bit of a role, and how much of the aid stations, the support that they're offering you, playing some kind of role. And when that's stripped away, you really get the feeling of like, no, this performance is purely what I put out there. And I think it's just nice when triathlon kind of. It's such a special. You know, in a sense, what we're doing when we're doing a triathlon is we're moving around faster or slower, but we're getting places. And I think it's nice to remember at the end of the day, this can also just be a way to get to some really cool places and see them, experience them, and have triathlon almost as an adventure. And I think the special part of an X tri, or almost any organized race is that you've Got the adventure. And you don't have to figure out the route. Some people have done that for you. They've been like, look, this is Montenegro. You've never been here before. This is the coolest route and that's a really nice way to experience a place. And triathlon gives us that fitness too, to do that.

Yeah, it is an amazing way to see a part of the world. But I can also understand that doing it point to point allows you to see so much more of it, doesn't it? You're not doing two loops of a particular section or that must allow you to see a huge amount more.

Absolutely, absolutely. I think in some races you notice it more than others. In Swissman, I know their tagline is from the palm trees to the eternal ice. And you really notice, like, wow, I covered completely different regions and kind of climate zones almost in the race.

It does sound cool.

I like that, and I think it is. You realize it so much more when someone on the course. I always remember being at Swissman and I had my running along and I had my race number on, and so it was quite obvious that I was doing something. And some people kind of in the middle of Switzerland, where the run is, they were like, oh, where did you start this morning? And I told them, and for them, they're like, that's 200 kilometers away.

You're just lying.

You realize kind of what you're doing and how amazing it is that you covered so much distance. And, you know, it's a nice thing as well. You have to deal with the logistics of it. Absolutely. That you have. Everything has to move and your crew has to be, you know, moving it with you and getting the kind of accommodation in different places. But it gives you. It shows you a lot of the country as well.

Amazing. And you mentioned how cold some of these are, other than acquiring Scottish blood. If somebody's about to go and do Patagon man, for example, for the first time, what should they be thinking about with regards to the swim, the bike and the run for dealing with the conditions that it's going to, you know, it's going to throw at them.

So before I went to Patagonia, I did absolutely nothing. And then I got there and the day before I did this kind of test swim and I was like, oh, dear, this is going to be hard. And then luckily, the next day the water was a tiny bit warmer. But what I think is important and what maybe people don't realize with the cold water swimming is if you can safely access some cold Water and, you know, have someone watching you and this kind of thing then from day to day, that shock feeling that you have when you get in cold water and it's mostly when you put your face in, that will go. It will get better from day to day. And that adaptation can stay for months, which is really cool. So if you know that you're going to go to a race like that and you can access some kind of cold open water in a safe way, if you could just go there and do a little bit every day or every other day, just have that, like getting your face in the water for a while, you'll feel much better. And if you can't do that, I think you can do something similar with a cold shower or. I don't know, my partner was like, could you just do it with a bucket of ice water? And you probably can, but it's just about kind of getting that initial shock reaction away that you have, which makes you feel like you can't breathe. To be honest, I don't know how much you really can adapt to, like the last part of the Ironman Swim, you've been in there for an hour and you do just feel a bit cold. And I don't think you should try and train that because it probably wouldn't be safe. I think that's one of the things that you just kind of get on with on race day. But what I would say and what the cold water and research people also say is the key is the swim isn't as important as immediately after the swimming, because as soon as you take the wetsuit off, that was this super thick layer of protection that you had with that warm water layer inside. And suddenly it's gone. And it's six in the morning and the wind is blowing and you're in a kind of lycra leotard. So that for me was the huge thing in Patagonia that I took a long time and put on a lot of clothing and that was kind of what kept me going. I felt like that I really stayed warm as soon as I got onto the bike. And for me, that was the key thing.

So are you wearing the same wetsuit you'd be wearing for the rest of the season, or is it a thicker winter wetsuit for swimming? And are you also wearing gloves, hats?

It was. So when I was in Patagonia, it was the same wetsuit, but I had a neoprene long sleeve underneath which was 1.5 millimeters. Neoprene socks, neoprene gloves which are A bit. You don't feel the water quite as well, but I think they really helped. And I wore two caps. And to be honest, the weird thing is I never feel that the neoprene cap helps that much. So I haven't really bothered with it, to be honest. I never felt the difference. But I will start probably using a specific cold water wetsuit because my wetsuit sponsor, Deborah, is producing this new one that's specifically formulated for really cold water. But in Patagonia I wasn't.

Right, okay. And then you said at the start. So in transition you've got to be really careful about losing too much heat. And again at the start of the bike. So are you just applying layers and chucking them at your crew as you go or, you know, how does that work? How do you deal with the bike at the start and throughout?

I was basically doing that. So in Patagonia, I think so I had my race suit on and I put on a long sleeve top, a zip up jacket and a vest and a hat and gloves. And I think at the first stop I took off the jacket and the vest and then the next stop I took off the long sleeve top. So I was coming to a full stop and taking it off. But that kind of works in that race format and I felt like it was worth it. To consistently keep the right body temperature in other extreme triathlons, it really depends. I've never worn as much clothing in any other race. Sometimes you can just go off without it. Sometimes if it's just a vest, you can kind of take it off while moving and throw it to your crew. But I'd say it's always worth taking the time to come to a complete stop to make sure that you have the right clothing. Because if you make the wrong decision and you get way too cold descending a mountain pass or something, it's is just going to lead to far more problems.

Sounds like good advice. And on the run, I assume the run is fairly straightforward with regards to, you know, running in the cold. I tend not to have a problem with that. But anything that you think of that's been helpful for you on the run?

No, not really. Almost the opposite, actually. Last year at Norseman, it was really hot.

Hot.

It was so unexpected and I was kind of annoyed because I was like, this isn't why I came here. And so honestly I would say, you know, that consider that that could be a factor and don't neglect it. And one of my crew members had this sponge with him and he'd kind of brought it with him as a joke, because it was this in joke we had, and he was like, hey, Laura, look at this. And I took it and I was like, why isn't there water on this? Because I needed it so much because it was so hot. So I'd say that that's just possibly a factor to consider, that if you do want to be cooling yourself on the run, your crew has to bring the water and the bucket and the sponge. So don't forget that part.

But also, I think some people were getting sunburned at Norseman last year, weren't they? Which again. So it's a whole other thing to anticipate, isn't it?

Yeah, absolutely. I think it's partly checking weather forecasts and conditions in advance and that being ready for anything aspect. The year before that, on the final climb at Norseman, I did have to put on a jacket. It was that cold that I was running and I needed a jacket. And my crew member had to put on loads of clothes actually, because he got really cold. But it's quite easy on the. Because you just tell your crew car they're kind of always there and you're just like, yeah, give me that jacket.

You know, and so talk me through what it takes to crew one of these events, because, you know, you've just described several things that sound like you need a certain type of person to crew. Do you always have the same people crewing or do you have different ones? And what. What is it? What would you be if. If you were recruiting a new crew, what would you be briefing them on to make sure they were up to speed?

I would love to put them through this obstacle course.

But.

So a lot of the same people are often in my crew and they're all really good friends and reason. If for various reasons, some of them can't get there, then the others are there. In Patagonia, I had someone who I'd never met before, and she ended up being absolutely incredible. And it just goes to show that you don't need to kind of know anything about triathlon or have done it before to be a brilliant crew member, because she did an absolutely amazing job. So I'd say the key things to being a good crew member are to first and foremost want to do it. If you don't want to do it, then no matter how fit you are and how much you know about sport, it probably won't be a good day for you or your athlete. So just want to do it. Talk a lot in advance with the athlete about what they expect what needs to be done. And even things like, are there things that the athlete doesn't want to hear? Like, I hate being told have fun, or, oh, you're in fourth place. Like, just don't tell me like that as well. And other than that, I mean, yeah, I guess just be really patient because these people are my really good friends and I really love them. But at the end of a race, if it's really from feeling bad and it's really tight, like, I can just be like, stop doing that. How far is it, like, lose all your patience because you're so tired. And I think that them kind of understanding, like, it's fine. She's just a bit hungry to make a good crew member.

Well, I suppose that's the benefit of having the same people, is that they start to know she is hungry. We might be trying to, you know, they might be suggesting things to you as opposed to just taking the abuse and thinking you're grouchy.

Exactly. Yes.

But so are they. Are they. Do they all. All the races work in the same way, so the crew are kind of. Are they always able to follow you in the same way, or does that change from race to race?

It changes from race to race. And that's something you really want to read the manual very carefully to figure out before you do it. Because, for example, at Swissman, you can have as many crew members as you want, technically, and they can be with you for the entire run. So I'll have two people on bikes with me on the run, just so that they have someone to talk to, usually. But then I don't have to carry any food or drink, and it's brilliant. At Norseman, only two people can help you at all. So you could have someone else in the car there, but they can't do anything. And that goes for the whole race, and they can't be with you for most of the run. So it does vary greatly. And there's also things like sometimes you're only allowed to start stopping the car and getting out after 30km, or not in this particular area, or you can only park the car here and not here, and just various things like that. So it does vary quite a lot. And you really want to be sure that you kind of check on that before you do the race.

Right. And sorry, just to be clear, because I think I got those confused in my mind, the first one you said where you could have as many people as you wanted was which race?

That's Swissman.

That's our Swiss man. And the second one was Norseman, wasn't it?

Yeah.

Brilliant. Thank you. And you obviously do quite the regularity with which you do these events is more than I would assume. I understand most people do, you know, most people don't do several events in quick succession. Is that you or is that the nature of the racing? That it's kind of, I don't know. You're obviously racing for a longer period of time than a pro that was doing a traditional Ironman, but, you know. But is it kind of slightly less abusive to the body? Body? I don't know. So is that you or the type of racing?

I think it's both. Other people have done multiple X tries in one season. I don't think there are people who were necessarily winning them, but they were doing them. I feel like another kind of element of my not getting so tired in these races and also not being blazing fast is, is that I do recover from them really quickly. Um, I mean, after I did Swiss Man In 2019, I did another race the next weekend and I didn't do that well. I did it, um, and so. And I actually did a race like eight days before. I didn't finish, but I did a race nine days before Northman in 2019 when I came second. So I, I feel like I can do that quite well. Um, but I do think it's far less punishing on the body as well. Much less. I've never had any problem after Swissman like being able to run a couple of days after because at the end of the day, the end of that race is you're hiking up a hill, good, cool down. And you really weren't going as quite as intensely because you had to manage your energy for longer. And I think also you can really take care of yourself recovery wise during the race because you can really eat and drink quite a lot and you have to, to feel to keep going for that long. So I'd say it is somewhat less stressful to the body. Although Norseman is more definitely.

Okay, okay. And you just talk about nutrition there. So what is your nutrition strategy? Kind of. Do you have anything specific that you're doing before the event? What do you do during the event? I know you have one particular favorite theme, but you can explain what that is and then anything afterwards, particularly to recover.

Oh, before. Nothing particularly special other than probably what nearly all athletes are doing, which is kind of avoiding high fiber things, so avoiding fruit and veg and whole grain type stuff and going to the more simple, higher carbohydrate based I always try and have a burger the night before the race. That's my pre rest meal. That works well for me. And on during the race. Yeah, I've got it down to kind of like a list of what works for me quite well. And that's sort of a mix. I always have some kind of isotonic energy drink in my bottles, except for the very last one where I'll switch to a soft drink and then often some little sandwiches. But of what I eat is just chocolate bars, to be honest. On the bike that's usually Snickers and I think this year I actually did Swissman on my own. I just covered the course. My crew were there, but I just did it solo. And then I started having M&Ms. As well, which worked quite well, but they were really hard to eat on the bike.

That sounds like. They sound like they could be lethal on the bike actually. It could end up choking on one.

It was more just. You couldn't get very many out of the bag, but whatever. And then on the run, I don't know, I'm quite good at like eating like chewing on the run as well. And then I like Milky Way.

More chocolate?

Yes, more chocolate because it's just, it just melts on the tongue. And I'm drinking Coke on the run, but some isotonic stuff as well. And afterwards it's just sort of anything really.

So we've gone burger beforehand, we've gone chocolate throughout with Coke and then whatever you like afterwards.

Yeah.

But it is really interesting because, you know, some people, probably me included, get really caught up with the nutrition elements of what, you know, the right fuel that's going in and, and everything else. But actually it's perfectly feasible to be fueling these events with just standard chocolate bars and, and, and the like, isn't it? You don't have to get too caught up in it.

No, I'd say that first of all, the massive advantage. Well, there's two massive advantages. Those food is that they're really easy to digest and that's what the manufacturers want. They want you to eat a lot and that's not always good. But when you need loads of calories that are really quickly digestible, that's great. And second, I want to eat that stuff. I like a Snickers, I don't like a gel. And I think the gels and isotonic stuff, they do have their place, the drinks especially because you do need the salt. So having some of those is kind of valuable. But I say much more important than what you're getting your calories from is that you're getting them and you just have to find a way to have that stuff sit comfortably and get you through the race. And I found that this works for me much better. So I'd say it's really important to pay attention to things like how many grams of carbs per hour. And that's basically one gram per kilo of body weight. So you can calculate it before, but whatever fulfills that, go with it, I would say, because if the gels are making you sick and you're not finishing them, or you don't like your drink and you just don't drink it, it's not going to do you much good. Whereas if you like Snickers, that'll be half your carbohydrate needs right there.

And so this dislike for the heat is nothing to do with the fact that all your nutrition melts?

No, it doesn't even melt that much, worryingly. Which probably tells you something about the quality of the Snickers chocolate. No, no, it's almost completely unrelated to that.

And what about injuries? You said that at the start when you were just running, you were suffering from a lot of injuries. And you know, nowadays you don't suffer from injuries. I think you said, what is it? Have you done anything other than the type of running that you're doing, changing? Have you done anything else to. To avoid injuries?

Yeah, so probably bears mentioning that my diet day to day is somewhat better than my rest. So I think that's something that plays a big part. You know, fruit, vegetables, all the typical healthy stuff. There's nothing I don't eat, so no kind of restrictive diet, but making sure you eat enough as well, because especially if you're going into a calorie deficit for many days in a row, you might not realize it hunger wise, but it's a huge risk factor for stress fractures and overuse injuries and that kind of thing. So eating well, sleeping enough. But I think when I was a runner, a pure runner, I was younger and I think I was very much in that mentality of if I ever do less than what my training program says, I'm a weak point person, you know, and so no matter that that really hurts or that I feel terrible or my legs are so stiff, I will do it. And now I'm like, that's ridiculous. If it really hurts, don't make it hurt even more. Just leave it for a day and then you'll be fine. And it doesn't mean you're weak or lazy. It just Means that you realize that, okay, I got the most I can get out of my body and I'll let it settle for a bit. And that's like, I just don't get injuries anymore. If something starts to hurt a bit, I just stop. And then the next day I'm fine. Whereas before, I would keep going, manage to drag another week of training out, and then be injured for six weeks. And I think in triathlon, absolutely, it helps that you can swim and bike if you're, you know, you've got a running injury, so you can always do something. Swimming is usually nice for the body. So I don't run very much, but I think having now that mentality of, if something hurts, I'll just stop, and being okay with that has got me so much further than trying to push through every little pain and niggle.

Funnily enough, when I was interviewing Tim Don on earlier on this week, he said exactly the same thing he said throughout his career. Soon as anything hurt was like, no, I'm just going to stop. And I think that's great advice because it is so tempting whether you're a pro or whether you're, you know, somebody that's just doing it for fun. It's still, you set the training program, you think, oh, it's. And yet. So you don't want to miss anything, and then you. You go out and do too much, and then you have to miss a much longer period of time, don't you?

Exactly. And I think it's just, you know, we're so caught up in this culture where we think like, that athlete never ever stopped, never ever quit and never. And it's just not true. No one's like that. And I think if you want to have moments like races where you find a way to really dig deep and not quit, you have to be kind to your body. In other times, I always think, like, if you. If you want your body to listen to you, sometimes you have to listen to it and pick your days when you're going to go that hard, because I think you can. You can kind of burn all your race effort way before you get to the race if you're not careful. Um, and you have to sort of keep that energy going and keep the recovery going so that you do have that extra burst of energy that you want on race day or for a particularly hard. Because you can't just spend that every day. You don't have that. No one does.

Yeah. Yeah. And talking about listening to your body, where do you stand in terms of feel Versus data. When you race, is there a Garmin on the bike or are you using a watch? And when you train, again, same approach.

I'm almost 100% feel. So especially with racing, there is no Garmin on the bike. I'm wearing a watch. This is something I've had a lot of people like. Yeah, you say you don't do data, but in that picture you're wearing a watch. Like, yes, I'm wearing a watch, but it is purely so that I can see every 15 minutes. So I know, drink something, eat something. So that's just to keep that. The nutrition going, basically. So I wouldn't. I've never ever raced with the speed or the pace or anything like that in front of me. I would never do that. And I just think that it's so essential to know it's all about knowing this is my hard effort, and this is how it feels when I have to keep my hard effort going for eight hours and for six hours and for four hours. You have to know that. You have to know what your body can do and what's in you. And so with training, it's also almost 100% on feel. With the running and the biking, it's completely on feel. Every now and then with swimming, we get like a, you know, go every 1:30 or kind of thing like that just to structure the session. But it's not always. A lot of it is just, you know, do 400 hard, do 800 hard. And that's just taught me so so much about pacing and what my body can deal with. And I like it so much more. I hated heart rate and data, and there was this thing telling you, like, you're not doing that well, and.

And yet I'm slogging my guts out. Yeah.

Yeah. I just. I never have to feel bad that, like, I never have that. I'm not as good as I think I am feeling when I stop a session. It's just, I felt good or I felt bad, but it's done. And it brings me so much, and I've improved so much with that as well. And I can't imagine having something like this thing in a race distracting me. And also, I know people who've had their garment there or whatever and it stopped working, which technology loves to do, and they just. Their race fell apart. And afterwards they're like, yeah, I didn't know, like, you know, how many watts or what effort I'm like, how can you not know you're doing it? Like, just know you have this far to Go. This is what the wind feels like. Just do it. And so I can't imagine being disconnected from that, especially in something like xtri, where you're not, you know, it's very varied terrain and all this kind of thing, and there's so much playing into it, and you just have to. You have to be connected to yourself. I think.

Brilliant. I think it sounds very good advice because it is too easy to get bogged down with data. And not only then do you get, you know, stressed about your performance, but you also often get stressed about the technology. Is like, is this syncing with that? Why is this not working? I was supposed to leave 10 minutes ago. And this expensive gadget is not talking to that expensive gadget. And it. So. So you seem to have this freedom of. Of that stress, which I think is a wonderful thing.

Yeah, I mean, I think that does. That does make it a big difference.

For me as well.

I kind of. I have that with headphones sometimes I'm like, oh, can't link to Bluetooth or whatever. But, yeah, I mean, I also. I don't use Strava or anything like that. And I think that would just drive me mad, like, having to see other people's, you know, how they did on that section that I just ran, and they were faster, but I was tired and, like, I just don't want to know, like, on race day. Then we'll see how, you know there's someone timing it on race day. I don't have to deal with it. Then we'll see. Like, that. I really. It frees my mind a lot.

Fantastic. And you mentioned. So you're a pro triathlete, but a lot of these events don't have any prize money, do they? How does being a pro in XTRI work?

I also have another job, which I'm.

Gonna come on to. I'm definitely gonna come on to that.

Yeah. So it's kind of. It's different in the sense that nearly all X Tries actually do have a sort of separate entry system for elite or pro athletes. So you're taken out of the big lottery and they kind of judge your past performances. And to some degree, that gives you a better chance of getting in. You can at least earn your way in there, which is quite nice. So that's. That's a huge advantage. You know, like, I did get lucky my first year getting into Norseman, but now I can say, like, I can just get into Norseman. And I think there's a lot of people who would think that's a Pretty thing. So that's very special. And of course we know in triathlon like it's not just about prize money. Yeah, these races don't happen to pay prize money, but certainly the exposure that they give you and the platform that they give you as an athlete allows you to work with some great sponsors and find other sources of income. So I think that's something that gives us a great opportunity as well. And there is also something quite special about the fact that, you know, in Norseman it's just, it's, it's, everyone gets that black T shirt or if they don't, they get that white T shirt. And that's a special thing, a special thing to have. You know, there's not many people in the world who have that and that's certainly a very, very valuable thing. But yeah, it does mean that, you know, financially I have to, to support myself in a lot of ways and that's just part of it.

Okay, brilliant. We will finish on, on, on your day job because I think that's going to be almost as interesting. And are there any products that you particularly think that you particularly clearly that's not going to be a Garmin, but is there anything that you found that you just think is such a brilliant product? It's just made my life so much easier regardless of how it fits into the XTRI world.

Wow. So I mean, to be honest, one of my main answers, and this is just because of how clumsy I am, is a drop proof waterproof phone case. But I'm not sponsored at all. But this is by the company, life proof. And I just, every single day I will throw all my swimming kit onto my phone and then I'll drop my phone and then I'll have it in my sweaty rucksack during an X try because you have to have a phone with you that's important. So bulletproof phone case is pretty good, I would say. Apart from that particular product, I mean, I think that the technology we have now with these running vests, they're absolute game changers. I mean now you can, you can carry so much stuff with you on a run and in an extra, you have to. And you don't feel it. They just don't move like it's amazing. So I think those are, those are great things and really cool and allow you to have a lot of cool experiences in racing and still feel comfortable.

And is there a particular race vest that you, that you get on best with?

I've only ever had one and I'm not sponsored by them. Either maybe they'll hear this and then I will be. So I just use a Salomon vest that I've had for a while and it's. Yeah, it's absolutely brilliant. And I guess the only other product is one that I'm just discovering, it's a compass. So I'm really bad at navigating, finding my way. And in Celtman you have to have a compass with you because you might have to navigate on this, this mountain section and they give you a map and everything. And I just sort of saw that in the manual. I was like, I have no idea how to use a compass.

Can you use. So for something like that, makes me think I've done. I've interviewed people from the trail running and the Fell Running and the ultra running world. And for some races you wouldn't be. You're not allowed to have your phone, so you have to use the map and compass for Celtman. Would you be able to use your phone for navigation if you preferred? Or, or do you. Are you without phone and you have to navigate with map and compass?

I think you'd be allowed to use your phone because you have to have it for safety reasons. They just want you to have the map and compass in case you lose signal or battery or something like that. But I think we could use the phone and your crew member is there too, so I don't know. He doesn't know how to read compass either. But between the two of us, I'm sure we'll work that.

That sounds to me I was supposed to do my first ultramarathon and I was in a couple of weeks time. Sadly it's not happening. But yeah, the whole map and compass versus OS maps on the iPhone just seem like a no brainer. I mean the iOS maps is a, is a, you know, makes life an awful lot easier.

That's a good tip. We'll have to get on that before we get to Scotland.

I would do that. And you can download the whole map so you don't have to worry about signals. But it takes the. You know, having done things like my Duke of Edinburgh award, trying to work out where you are on the map is often as challenging as where to go next. So OS map just takes the, takes the guesswork out of that bit.

Yeah, that's a good tip.

Fantastic. And so let's come on to your day job. Tell us what you do for a day job.

So I work at the University of Basel in here in Northern Switzerland and I work at the Sports Science Department as a researcher and I research exercise.

Addiction, which is why we need to talk about it.

Yes. A lot of people think it's very funny when they hear. Next question I usually get is, oh, are you researching yourself? And I say, no.

Well, I was going to say, are you addicted to. Do you think you're addicted to exercise yourself?

No, definitely. No. No, definitely not. But although I did take the questionnaire just to check. No, I was also. No, it was for scientific purposes. I was taking it to check if I thought it was good. So. No. Exercise addiction is this fascinating thing that's not yet recognized as a psychiatric disorder, like a lot of behavioral addictions. So things like we hear about shopping addiction or smartphone addiction or that kind of thing, and those are things we're starting to talk about, but they're not yet included in the list of diagnosable psychiatric disorders. So we still need more evidence before we can really put them on that list. And exercise is something that, first of all, we know can be rewarding. And anything that's rewarding for humans, there's the risk that we want too much of it. And what that seems to manifest as in some individuals is this compulsive need to exercise for a certain amount of time every day, and that's usually quite a lot of time. And they become incredibly nervous and anxious and even depressed if they can't exercise for that much. And they'll exercise through severe injuries, through illness, even when it's causing them problems with their job or their family, and even when they know that it's a problem, they still can't stop themselves.

I see. So, I mean, obviously this is a serious problem for many people. But I'm interested that, like, you and I aren't addicted to exercise either, because, like, if I take that, if I take alcohol as an example, I remember reading Duff McKagan's autobiography, you know, the bass guitarist from Guns N Roses, and at his peak, he was drinking six bottles of wine a day. So he's. He was definitely an alcoholic. And we could definitely say he's at one end of the scale. But is somebody that's drinking two bottles of wine a day an alcoholic? Probably they are, yes. You know, and maybe even one bottle of wine a day is an alcoholic. Who knows if they have to have a bottle or even if some. They have to have half a bottle. So where does. How do you draw a line in the sand and say, well, these people are addicted, but these people just like to do it every day because there's going to be Some of those symptoms that you just described that people are going, well, I get pretty grouchy. I get hangry. If I don't go for a run, I'm pretty miserable.

Yeah, absolutely. It's a very good question, because unlike heroin or alcohol, we kind of need exercise. I'd say. I'd argue that we absolutely need it to live a healthy life. And so suddenly we've got this issue that we need some but what's too much? And it's something that you see with eating disorders as well, that it makes the therapy of eating disorders complicated, because no matter what, you can't get away from somehow needing food. So where is normal and where is problematic? And with exercise and with other behavioral addictions, usually the sign is when it's becoming a significant burden for that person to carry out this activity, but they do it anyway. And that can be a psychological burden and. Or a physical burden. And so with the alcohol example, you'd say that usually we can start to tell it's a problem either because the person can't seem to go one or two days without it, if, for whatever reason they had to, and. Or because they're having physical problems due to their consumption. And some people will kind of go their whole life with smoking or drinking a lot and just never really have the physical problems. But it's still an addiction because they couldn't stop for several days and just not suffer at all. And so with exercise, it's kind of the same thing. It's when it's becoming a burden for this person physically or psychologically, and they still don't stop. And the difference between passionate, very motivated athletes and professional athletes is that, first of all, if they do have to stop, yeah, there might be some grumpiness, there might even be serious sadness, but they are still, by and large, basically okay with the fact. And whatever the reason for stopping was, they're probably not going to hammer through because they have an injury, or when it's causing them trouble in their family life or whatever, they'll be able to stop for that amount of time. And the other thing that we often find is that these people still have a real passion for their sport, and that's why they're doing it. And for people with exercise addiction, it's not particularly a goal or a passion for sport. It's this fear of what will happen when they don't. It's become this obsession of, I need to. That's the only way I'll feel okay. And if things stop, I'll just fall Apart. And that's not really the case for most athletes. And what you often find is that athletes can't really be addicted to exercise because we all know that we need to recover, and we do recover. We give ourselves that time and that's how we get better. And people with exercise addiction don't have these athletic goals that they want to achieve, so the recovery is just never there. So they just have this plateau of movement that's part of their lives, but it's not really kind of peaking and recovering.

Is this a common addiction? I mean, so is it something that you see? So how many cases do you tend to find?

It's definitely not common, first of all, because we're only talking about people who do a lot of sport, and we know that these days that's not that many people in the world. It's very tricky to determine how many people suffer because we've only got some very basic questionnaires to try and determine who could have a problem. And some of them are so basic that almost any athlete would be caught. So we kind of have to ignore some of the data, but we've got some slightly better ones. And it seems like of regularly training athletes, athletes, it's maybe between 1 and 10%, and that's just of people who train a lot. So it's not a lot of the population. But at the same time, we don't really know what the kind of hidden number is because these are people who are almost never self referring to a psychologist or a psychiatrist because there's no treatment. So we think these are often people who will only get in touch with a medical professional for a physical injury. And it'll just never really be documented. They'll never be kind of caught in the, in the medical picture.

And what's. If somebody knows somebody that is they think is suffering from this, or this is sounding like it's ringing a bell for a listener, what should they be doing about this?

Well, I think anyone who recognizes this in themselves is taking a very important step by saying, okay, I realize that this might be problematic and it's causing me a lot of stress and trauma and I want to do something about it. As I've said, it's not a recognized disorder yet, so it's difficult to find treatment. But if you have the resources to get some kind of cognitive behavioral therapy, that's a fairly well established way of dealing with behavioral disorders that could be causing you trouble, if you want to kind of take your own steps, then maybe some kind of mindfulness based approach to your physical activity so that you could start to think about trying to play with some of the rituals and structures that have kind of taken hold of your physical activity. But it's a very challenging thing. It's certainly not easy to take on on your own. And if it's someone you know or a loved one, you can certainly try and talk about the role that physical activity has taken on in their life. That's no guarantee that they will open up to you about it. They might just try and hide the activity. I think with a lot of disorders like this, unless the person's ready to do something about it, they just might not. And that's the reality of it. But being there in a non judgmental way is probably the very best thing that you can do. If you think that that might be the case with someone you know, okay.

Brilliant and flipping on his head. Have you done. Does your research then kind of dive also into using exercise to recover from other addictions, or is that something completely different?

It is completely different in the sense that there's really not much crossover that I don't think you'll see a lot of people who were addicted to a drug then become addicted to exercise, Although there are some cases of it. And in triathlon, we have a lot of quite well known cases of people with a past of abusing drugs or alcohol who've gone on to become highly successful. Are they addicted? I would say probably not, because they have to have these recovery phases that they recognize are a part of training. So I think in that way, exercise can be an excellent thing to bring you back to a healthy relationship with your body, because you'll realize it's not just about pushing and excess. It's about the moment where you have to go, no, this is what my body needs and I'll stop. So I think it can be a valuable treatment. And that was the research I used to do before I came to this. I did research looking at whether exercise could be a valuable add on therapy for a number of drug addictions. And we looked at whether people enjoyed it. We did that in a clinic for people who had heroin addiction, Whether they could take part in a physical activity program. We tried to look at whether exercise had a positive impact on their brains when they were thinking about the substance. So if we could reduce their craving, and there is some quite good evidence there that it can be effective. The reality is just that often with these populations, there's a lot of stuff standing in their way to taking part in a sports program. It's not as simple as just sort of walking in there and going like, hey, we're going to do it, and then everything will be fine. They have these complex lives that mean that they don't always get an immediate benefit from it, but I think it can certainly be valuable. Yeah.

I remember seeing a lady speak at a conference I was at in the us. I can't remember the charity's name, but she essentially set up a charity for homeless people, getting them out running, and it was just so incredibly beneficial. This charity has grown to be really quite big across the us but, yeah, it's incredible to see how beneficial running was to homeless community as long as they were given the opportunity to do it. The challenge is getting them the getting in the opportunity, isn't it?

Absolutely. Absolutely. I think there are so many things where, you know, you have to have the decent infrastructure. And then there were people coming to us and being like, look, I don't really have clothes that I can just get sweaty because I don't have enough clothes. Clothes and I don't have the shoes and this and that. All this stuff we take for granted. And you start to realize, I mean, I think it's also important because you realize, like, oh, maybe exercise won't immediately solve everything, but also a huge amount of enjoyment and benefit and positive feedback that we got when they were like, yeah, I haven't had the opportunity to do something like this in years and I feel better. And they were joining gyms and this and that. And so I think there's a huge amount of potential as long as we realize that it's stuff that takes kind of investment from the ground up for a long time, but it's something that can really. I mean, I think, you know, exercise and sport, I will always think that that's something that can change the world and change people's lives if people are allowed to find the thing that they enjoy.

Absolutely. I think you're right. It can do a huge amount of good, can't it? So, coming back to your own races, is there a particular highlight? You know, you've got these amazing wins under your belt, but is there a particular one that stands out to you as your best moment of your career so far? And why?

Oh, that's such a good question. And it's also sad in a way, because I'm like, it's been so long since I did a race. I have some pictures of races on the wall and I remember looking at them and I was like, was that really me? But yeah, hopefully we get back to that soon, I think, oh, wow. I'd say maybe Norseman last year was very special because I think that. And to some extent, Patagon man, but maybe less. That was in some ways the first biggest race that I went to where suddenly people were like, oh, you're Flora. Are you gonna win? And I could kind of. I could just go there, and no one knew who I was. And even afterwards, no one knew who I was, and there was no pressure, and if it went badly, no one cared anyway. Kind of, you know, I did, but that was this thing where everyone kind of knew who I was. That sounds very arrogant, but, you know, some people did and the organization did and this kind of thing. And, you know, you get asked a lot like, are you going to win? How are you? All this or that. And that was the first experience I had of performing with people's expectations and managing to do well. You know, I didn't win, but I got second place. And I was really, really happy with that on the day and with that competition. You know, to come second to Lucy Gossage for me was brilliant. And so that was something really special that I could go in there with what could have potentially been pressure and use it in a positive way. And then we just had a flawless race. I mean, my crew was brilliant in some ways. Maybe it wasn't even a good race because I didn't. There were so few challenges to overcome. Like, they. They were so great and so flawless, and it just went so smoothly in a way. But that was something really special to kind of. When you come to it so late and you kind of claw your way into the professional ranks. I think I had a lot of phases of, like, I'm not really, like, you know, I've got a pro license, but I'm not really. And it was nice to be like, no, I am, and I'm here, and I'm going to show that I deserve to be here. And that was a special thing to experience, I think.

Amazing. Amazing. Are there any books on this extreme triathlon world that you found really useful or you find yourself recommending or you just enjoyed?

No, I think I have to write the book.

Sounds like it, doesn't it?

I would love to do that at some point. I am always skeptical of these athletes who write a book in the middle of their careers, because I'm like, no, that was just for the money. Just wait till the end. But no, there is no book about it. And I often feel like there's no story of the female athlete or there's not enough stories of the female athletes that are the kind that I want to read, so maybe I'll have to write it.

Sounds like it.

Read a lot of sports biographies and sports books that have given me a lot for X try and I'm just trying to think what they are. So I was and still am a big fan of Paula Radcliffe and I really loved her biography. That was the first running biography I ever read. And I got a lot out of that triathlon, to be honest, not so much Wasn't massively impressed with the triathlon books that I did read. But I like a lot of the kind of running books like Running with the Buffaloes. Brilliant for me. Nicole Cook, female cyclist, the Breakaway, absolutely brilliant. And this story of cycling that you never really hear. Emily Chappell's cycling books as well. I mean her Ultra cycling and Round the World cycling, that kind of thing. I'm reading Cillian Jeannette's books at the moment, so all that kind of stuff. But yeah, the X dry books are still to be written, so I look.

Forward to reading it. There's a great book, I don't know if you've ever seen it, but it's called against the Odds by a guy called John Pendergrass and he tried to do six Ironmans in six different continents in his 60s. And it's just a wonderful book because more than half the book is about the traveling that happens kind of before and after each of those events. And you know, the kind of the Ironmans are just the fabric amongst, you know, the story. But there's definitely a story to be. To be told by. From these extreme triathlons. So, yeah, so I look forward to the book when you get it done. And final question I ask everybody is what are you most looking forward to in the year ahead?

Oh, wow. I would have to say racing.

It's a common answer, actually.

Yeah, I think that's. I hope that's quite a nice answer in a way because even though 2020 was very different, there was still so much that I could do and that hopefully a lot of people could do and a lot of great experiences that I could have and time with family and friends and new things that I could do that I couldn't have done during a racing season, like ridiculously long bike rides and open water swimming and things. So that wasn't a wasted year. That wasn't an empty year. There was great stuff. And so if I can say racing is the only thing that was missing, I think that's pretty good. But I'm definitely, definitely looking forward to that.

I think. Hasn't it made everybody just appreciate how much they enjoy racing Element? It isn't just about cycling, swimming and running. That is brilliant fun and I think those. Those that do that have been able to fare this time much better than others. But, yeah, won't it be great to get back to some racing of some sort?

Oh, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

Flora, it's been an absolute pleasure to chat to you. I've really enjoyed it. I could chat to you all afternoon about this topic, but it's been brilliant to see what you've done so far and I can't wait to see how you get on in the season ahead.

Thank you so much. Thank you. Super enjoyable. And at least we saved some things that I can put in the book.

Excellent. Definitely. I'm looking forward to it. So what did you make of that interview with Flora Sid?

I mean, I think it's certainly sort of inspiring from it. There's so many events out there, like, you don't just have to stick to the traditional triathlon. I think probably the thing that stood out for me at the beginning, she said that she didn't start triathlon or did her first triathlon at 28. Well, I didn't do my first one until I was 29, so as a complete beginner with, you know, with trainers on my road bike. So I think for anyone listening, there's still kind of. You don't have to start young. There's still plenty of chance to pick up the sport and still have some incredible opportunities and experiences. And that doesn't mean you need to go professional or anything at that age. That's just like, you know, listening to all the different races. I mean, what did you. What did you. You pick up? For me being a bit inspired, I think.

Well, I. So I picked up certainly on that point about coming into the sport late. I do think that is incredible. And it's, you know, the more we talk about Ironman and Ultra endurance events, the more that seems to be a theme, doesn't it, coming into the sport late? You know, I'm just reading John McAvoy's book at the moment and again, he obviously only came into the sport late.

For various other reasons.

Yes, well, we'll come on to that in hopefully a future edition. Yes, he was somewhat restricted in his activity, wasn't he? But it's just amazing how people do come into the sport late. And I've referred a few times to you doing your first triathlon at 29. And becoming a very successful pro. And you just think that's amazing. But what I loved about chatting to Flora was these extreme triathlons. You know, I've got friends that have done Norseman and Patagon man, but I've kind of never really. I've been so focused on. Right, okay. Just, you know, just getting around a normal Ironman has been my focus.

But they do sound is surprise. Well, it doesn't surprise me because you did your ultra run on your own kind of thing, so it kind of makes quite. It seems quite sensible that you would be inspired by this.

Is there any.

Have you put any on your bucket list already?

I've definitely put Swissman, Norseman and Patagon man all on the bucket list because they all sound awesome. I just think that, you know, I'm coming into it. You know, you did your first triathlon when you're 29. I was probably 41 when I did my first triathlon, so, you know, my time has gone. But actually I'm loving the journey and I. What I think is, you know, but I'm unlikely to be getting on podiums anytime soon. So actually, for me, it's partly about the experience of traveling to somewhere I wouldn't have gone to, was it not for the race. Partly about seeing that part of the world and then partly. Just about kind of pushing the boundaries further and seeing what I can do and I'm there to complete, not compete most at the moment. So therefore, just, you know, kind of hearing about these races and as using as an excuse to go and explore, you know, part of the world that you wouldn't necessarily go to, I just think is a brilliant way of doing it.

I mean, I. Yeah, I mean, I. Obviously Tim Don did Pascon man as well.

Yeah.

And I've got a few friends who've done it and it just looked amazing, like the scenery. I think I've also had friends who've done Canada, man, which again, looked pretty epic. I think these extreme triathlons, just like you said, if you've got it, gives you that opportunity. Like, it's one of the reasons I love doing the sport is that, you know, obviously in normal times, although I have traveled again at the moment, is that you travel to different places in the world and you get to race in amazing. And I know that's not available to everyone, but, you know, there is that opportunity to do that with all the races we have in some fantastic locations. And I think the extreme triathlon just capsulates that as well. All these extreme, you Know the different challenges and extreme and things you can do now. Even if it's like you know, the gravel riding or mountain bike, you know, three day adventures sort of thing and things like that or yeah, the Exterra Xterra stuff. But yeah, I think some of the, I think Patagon man is probably kind of on my long list at some point and then yeah, Norseman because it's just kind of that iconic. I feel if you're doing extreme triathlons, you have to do Norseman. You have to get that black T shirt at the top of the hill to finish.

But she really Swissman. Really? She convinced me that that would be, that's gotta be up there as well. You know, obviously she's slightly biased because that's where she lives, but it just sounded fantastic. So, yeah, anyway, I really enjoyed chatting to her and yes, it's definitely inspired me to go and do an extreme triathlon at some point in not too distant future. Brilliant. So that's it from, from us. Good luck with your training, hope you get some more skiing in while you can.

And I think we've, I think we've got one more day planned but in an, but an afternoon, not an early start, an afternoon. And then I'll be saying goodbye to the, to Boulder and heading to, heading to Miami first. So it'll be going from the mountains to the beach time.

Fantastic. Well, maybe that means that your apres ski can be something slightly stronger than a bacon sandwich. So in the meantime, keep on training. And remember. This podcast is brought to you by Brits Superfoods. You can find out more@britsuperfoods.co.uk but if you use the link in the show notes or you use the referral code of Tribeathlon, you'll get 10% off your orders. You'll get a free bag of juices worth £15 with every order. And those will happen forever as long as you buy from BritSuperfood having started with that referral code, you'll get those forever. In addition to that, you'll also benefit from that 110% money back guarantee. So if you don't see the value in it, then, then you can. They'll give you your money back and an extra 10%. So go check out the link in the show notes or go to BritSuperfoods.co.uk and use the referral code Tribeathlon and you'll get that 10% off free shipping and free juice on every order. And don't forget to download the tribathlon app for more amazing podcasts, but also to help you train, compete, and to build your tribe.