First Out of the Water with Jan Sibbersen

Foreign.

I'm charlie redding.

And I'm claire fudge and this is.

The tribe athlon podcast.

So I was riding in aero position towards that helicopter that was hovering on top of the road and I mean, goosebumps all over. That was probably the coolest moment ever.

That is Jan Siversen and this episode is first out of the water.

Hey, Claire, how are you doing?

Yes, good, thank you. How are you after your, your mammoth weekend of cycling in the Peak District?

I am good, thank you. Yeah, I'm good. And I'll tell you all about my, my cycling at the weekend. But before we do that, how are you, how's your recovery from COVID going? Because I know obviously you kind of. It was a while ago.

I. Protocol Charlie, for once I'm impressed. Yeah, I, yeah, I felt a bit kind of sore over the weekend in terms of my friends in Marbella racing where I was meant to be. But it was, it was actually really nice to kind of watch people do really well. So that was really great. And yeah, I'm back to kind of more or less where I should be in terms of training. It's just, just a few overriding symptoms of cold, really. But other than that it's been, it's been fine. And I think, you know, being for anyone that hasn't had Covid, that does get it actually being really sensible hopefully kind of brings you back sooner as well.

Yeah, yeah. You don't want to do any long term damage, do you? So well done for skipping Iron Man My Bale, which actually Nikki Bartlett won, didn't she?

Yes, I think so.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, she did. I just saw, saw a post this morning. I was like, oh, yeah, that was, that was, I was very pleased for Nikki.

So.

Yeah. So, well, that's good news that you're on demand and you're back, back, back to nearly 100%.

Yeah. This weekend they'll be back. Well, I kind of slipped in another little tiny race because I felt like I missed one out. So I'm just doing something small down in Dorset just to get back on the, just to test myself, really, actually. And then Olympic distance, which is going to be like, it's going to seem like a blooming sprint race to me.

Yeah.

But I think it's actually really good. I find it really difficult to work at that kind of intensity. So, you know, it's. I don't know if you've been back and raced that kind of distance again because I find it really difficult.

I know the last time I did I think the year before COVID was the last time I did it and it was the Dam Buster, I think, at Rutland Water. And yes, I said exactly the same thing. God, that hurts so much.

It does, doesn't it? Really does. I've got that and then a few other races, a couple or two races in June and then. Yeah, back on it, hopefully.

Excellent, excellent. Well, that's good. Well, I was back on it because I had so last, obviously the weekend before last Outlaw Half, which went pretty well for me.

But how was your recovery? And then you've just. You've just dived back into a massive tour of the Peak District the weekend after.

Yes, well, the. The planning wasn't particularly brilliant. I'm not actually sure. I realized that they were only a week apart when I. Until about a week before the Outlaw Planner by trade. Pardon? Yes, yes, yes, yes. That was poor planning. But yeah, so I. And actually even poorer planning was because I'd had so much other stuff going on and because of the Outlaw Half, I didn't actually really pay any attention to what I'd signed up to with the Tour of the Peaks and.

Hilly, isn't it?

It is very, very hilly. And in fact, I mean, I always remember people describing the Fred Whitton as being the toughest sporty for the uk. About three quarters of the way around the Tour of the Peaks, I said to Giles, who I was cycling with, I said, how does this compare total ascent wise to the Fred Whitten? He said, oh yeah, it's about the same. So I really should have looked at this route beforehand, I think.

Not like when I lived in Yorkshire, I did the Attack to Dell's a couple of times and geez, that was really blooming difficult. But I had no idea when I signed up to it. And in a way, probably the best thing I ever did because the second time I did it, I knew what was coming.

Yeah, well, that's. That's exactly it. And I just kept. We just kept getting big climb after big climb after big and. And some good steep climbs in as well. Anyway, I loved it. It was a great day. We got perfect weather. It was dry, it was warm, but not hot, it wasn't windy. So yeah, it was fantastic. I've never really. I don't think I've ever cycled in the Peaks before, which is ridiculous. Cause it's like less than two hours away from me. But it was.

How was your recovery afterwards?

Well, I. It was, it was so, you know, after some races. So when I did the Dragon ride years ago, they handed me. Yeah, that's it. 142 very hilly miles again. And the first thing they handed you was a can of Erdogan. At the time, I didn't know it was alcohol free, so I was like, a beer straight after that. I can't. And then I realized it was alcohol and it was all good. And have had a dinghy many times since and. And. But yesterday, after the Tour of the Peaks, the first thing they handed you as you crossed the finish line was an actual proper beer.

Really? Was it like from a local brewery or something?

No, it wasn't. It was one of those little French stubbies that you used to drink when you were. When you were. When I was at university. But it got me thinking. So what? Um, so my recovery started with a beer and it was a bit more sensible and went to. Yeah, and then. Then he went to a protein shake and some precision hydration. 1500 electrolyte. Then I threw in a can of Coke and, and a Mint Magnum. So there's. There was all sorts of things in there.

You didn't go too far wrong. Actually. It's quite interesting.

So. So pull apart that. Let's start with the beer. Well, is a beer good?

Interestingly, and I know I mentioned this to you before, but there's been like a recent systematic review of beer after racing. And I mean, to bear in mind for everybody listening, these are small studies and there are some flaws in these studies and they're also based on men. But the kind of little takeaway points were. And actually this is what you'll love and probably what a lot of people will love is the fact that actually when you look at beer versus water, there's a. There's a beverage hydration index, which I talked about actually quite some months ago, I think, before. But basically looking at the hydration properties of things like water and milk and rehydration solutions, and actually beer and water aren't too significantly different in terms of hydration, but it's the big but it's the amount that you drink of it afterwards. So if you're looking for the rehydration properties of it and the. The good things that are in there, so something we call like flavonoids. So they're polyphenols, basically. So these are kind of active components of certain foodstuffs. So these kind of components of beer may help to reduce inflammation, which obviously, after you've done training, increases inflammation, but it depends on how much you drink. So it's been postulated that maybe max 600 mils. What's that? It's a pint, isn't it? Pint A bit, roughly speaking, yeah. But if you have it alongside something that helps with hydration so some added sodium or having something like a recovery milkshake or like a whey protein recovery that because of its hydrating properties and the fact it's a foodstuff and has sodium in may help with some, some form of hydration. So there are a few little benefits to it. But it is likely obviously if you have too much it's going to affect rehydration so you're going to feel pretty terrible the next day. And also if you're thinking about making muscle, so muscle protein synthesis, it does. Alcohol definitely interferes with that. But from a rehydration point of view, actually, you know, a pint as long as you have something to eat and have something to some sodium with it. But interesting, interestingly because you're, you're a lover of non alcoholic beers, aren't you?

I am.

So there were actually the benefits because a lot of these sports beers you might, because you mentioned things like Erdinger and I think that was one of the first isotonic.

Yeah, alcohol free beer.

Exactly. And actually some of the research was done in these type of non alcoholic beers. So the kind of beer that I've just been talking about was more than 4% but that's kind of what we're talking. We're not talking some of the really strong. Is it like Duval and things. It's like 7% or something, isn't it?

I definitely don't need a 7% beer after racing. That would be a very, very short lived recovery.

Yeah, I think it's a thing, it's about being, you know, it's about being sensible. But the fact that it does have some of these nice little properties of these flavonoids that are in there can help to produce inflammation. But yeah, take it as you will. I'm not suggesting we all go out there and do that at all. But the big takeover point from that as well is about rehydration, a bit of sodium and food and actually if you get in something like a milkshake afterwards or whey protein recovery, then actually you're doing a pretty good job. So the magnum that, you know, you could, could suggest that there's some calcium, you know, in there and obviously whey and casein in there. So yeah, did a pretty good job.

I thought it was all right and then when I got home I had Roast chicken and a couple of glasses of wine. So how, how does roast chicken and wine again fit into the post recovery.

If it was red or white?

Well, I have to confess, it was white. Normally it would have been red, but I was being tight. I'd got a bottle of white that was open and I hadn't got a bottle of red that was open.

Well, I guess you, I guess the only thing there is that. So the chicken sounds great in terms of actually helping you to sleep. You've got the tryptophan, which one of the amino acids that can help in terms of sleep. So you got that in chicken and turkey in particular. You also get in like dairy products as well. But maybe that wine may have helped you feel like you were getting to sleep because you know, we talked before actually when we did our event, like sleep was horrendous, wasn't it? But like, so we can, that can help us feel like we're getting to sleep. But actually that could have interfered with how you felt this morning. This morning?

Yes, this morning.

So in terms of like not actually getting very good quality sleep but also interfering with hydration as well. So.

Well, funny enough, my aura ring to recovery. Yeah, my aura ring told me that I didn't get much deep sleep last night. So it could have been the two glasses of wine but.

But also stimulation from lots of training as well.

Yeah, I suspect it was more to do with that. But yeah, so it was. So recovery. I feel actually okay today. I've got slightly stiffer legs than I would like to have on a Monday.

Two glasses of wine.

Yeah, blame the wine, not the 113hilly miles. Excellent. Well, thank you for that insight and I'm pleased to know that my recovery hit the mark in some way, even if it was probably slightly awry in others. But let's dive into the interview now with Jan Sibberson.

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So, Jan, welcome to the Tribe Athlon podcast. I'm joined here by Clare, as always as well. I'm really looking forward to, forward to chatting to you about all things swimming and wetsuits. But like with all of our guests, I'd like you to kick off by telling those people that don't know much about you a little bit about your background. You know, sort of. Let's start with how did you get into swimming and therefore and then triathlon after that.

Yes, Charlie, thanks so much for the intro and I'm very glad to be on the show. Yeah, a little bit of background on myself. I got into swimming basically before I got into walking up straight because my both my Parents were in education. My dad was a physical education teacher. So from very soon on I was exposed to all different sorts of sports and swimming was one of the first of them. So I think I started swimming around or I started getting thrown in the water around like two and a half, three years maybe. And I think I completed my first 25 meters at the age of four or something like that.

So you still have the badge?

I still, it might be in one of the drawers. And at some point there was like three or four badges and the swimsuit was too small. So those are the good old days, right, with all the other badges. Yeah. So that was an early, early start of the swimming career and I made it to the junior national team at the same time. I was still actually also activ. In skiing, in downhill skiing, and was also making the junior national team. Had to decide eventually what sports to pursue further. And it ended up being swimming for various reasons, but I think the biggest one was the, you know, the, you're not getting injured, or let's say the risk of getting injured not being as high as in downhill skiing. So that's how I ended up being a swimmer.

Was there also. Do I remember hearing there was also a link to alcohol, your parents wanting to keep you away from alcohol?

Yes. So there is, in Germany, in the south of Bavaria, there is a boarding school, a skiing boarding school. And so when you're on the team, this is kind of the school that you kind of have to go to in order to progress to a more senior level. And we went there with my parents and for some reason they found out that those students would actually have a beer every now and then. And that was then immediately was like, Jan, you're becoming a swimmer. So that was, I think if I would have insisted, I probably would have. Would have been able to succeed. But no, it ended up being swimming. And I'm very grateful for that. And in retrospect, I think it was a great, great decision.

Fantastic. So tell us a little bit about how you progressed through swimming and, and sort of your, your highlight of, of your swimming career.

Well, you know, I never, you know, made it all the way to the top. So I would say I was always B national team. So it's like the, let's say the third plus ranked in Germany. So I, you know, I tried to qualify for the Olympics. Didn't make that. I swam. I swam at worlds and I swam at Europeans. And you know, I think I had, I had over the course of my swimming career, which I would say was between 1990 and 2000, I had some really, really, let's say, great experiences and great races. One in particular, I was still a junior and it was a 400 freestyle event. And it was for the first time in my life that I experienced something that I would call like performing in flow, where you basically you do the race and then afterwards you look back and you don't really know how you did it and because you just remember getting on the start block and then touching, touching the wall after 400 meters. So in the, in the middle everything became a blur. And, and I think that's something, I mean there's been research and all this kind of stuff on flow, but being one at the moment and being in flow and not, it's one of the greatest feelings as an athlete that you can have. So I would pretty much, you know, not, you know, not that metal here, not that metal there, but it was that race, when I experienced that for the first time, that was most outstanding, brilliant.

And when you think back to that, was there, was there anything that you kind of identified about that race that you kind of maybe helped you get into flow?

That's a, that's a very good question. I remember that I, I was very well prepared for the, for the whole meet. It was, it was a four day meet and was at the finals of the very first day. And, and then like a week before the race when you start the taper or a week before the event before when you start the taper. Your body does all these weird things, you know, and you don't know if it's still, if it's still going to work on race day or not and to try, but then you shouldn't because you need to rest. So it was this kind of like state of uncertainty. I would say that, that there was before, but. And then it kind of like changed during the day. So you do prelims in the morning and the final in the evening. And at prelims I was still feeling like a little bit here and there, but then I think it was the first time that I raced in an atmosphere with a lot of spectators, etc. But, but I think that's really the difficult part. Then how do you replicate it? You know, because you've had this feeling and you don't exactly know how you got into it and it became kind of like, I don't want to say the, the chase of a swimming career, but I'm sure if you ask other top athletes, they'll tell you the same, you know, you'll, you Know, you don't become superstitious or anything, but you try to do things exactly the same how you did it then to try to replicate it. And sometimes it happens and sometimes it doesn't happen, but it's. I guess it's one of the keys on, if you can solve that, that riddle and know how to get yourself into that state of mind, state of body, state of. You name it, then, you know, you get yourself a winner. I never, I never really, I never really figured it out 100%. I think it, it's body, mind, soul, you name it. I guess if you're, if your brain is preoccupied with other stuff in your life, I think it's probably hard to get into that state if you're not well prepared for the race. I, I probably think it's, it's the same because at some point stuff just gonna hurt and you think about the pain and think about different stuff. So I think a lot of stuff needs to come together. But when I watched later on, when I watched like Ian Thorpe or Phelps swimming, you know, they must have been in this sort of state in order to achieve the things that they achieve.

It's interesting, isn't it? Some of those things that you described are the things that put you in, some people in flow, but they're also some of the things that exactly would have the opposite effect and cause some people to choke, aren't they? So you're right, it is. It's really, really difficult. So how did you progressing through a good. But as you say, you didn't quite reach the top of the game in Germany in your swimming career. How did that translate into then you ending up in triathlon?

Yeah. So when the swimming season, the swimming season usually would run until like June, July, and would end with either nationals or then an international event. And when that was over, you pretty much had like three to six weeks off over the summer. And a couple of my friends back in my hometown, they would do triathlons and they said, hey, you know, you, we see you cycling to the pool every day and pretty much we see you running every once in a while. Why don't you try a triathlon? So it was back in 93, when. 1993, when I did my first Olympic distance triathlon. And well, it hurt a lot, but it was also a lot of fun. And so I always had a little bit of a triathlon gene in myself. Then I went to the States, went to school in the US for four years, and there was basically no triathlon during those four years. But when I graduated from school, ended up being, or going to New York, working as an investment banker, then I asked myself, look, has this already been it in terms of sports at the age of 25? Because I still felt quite young and I thought, you know, this, am I going to spend the rest of my life in an office building? And I said, I clearly, I clearly answered that question with a no. So it was by coincidence. A friend of mine came and visited me on Thanksgiving in the year 2000 in New York, and he signed up for the Half Ironman in St. Croix in the US Virgin Islands in the Caribbean. So I was like, wow, this is cool. You know, I, I want to go there as well. In the beginning I wanted to support him. And then I, I was like, why don't I do the race myself? So that's how I got into, that's how I got into triathlons. Yeah.

Awesome. And I think you, you qualified for Kona a bit quicker than you were expecting, didn't you? So, so tell us, tell us a little bit about that and how you got to Kona so soon.

So, you know, working and living in New York is, is one thing. And I, you know, this event back then was in early May, and so I started training probably, I'd say in February or so. January, February. So I would swim at the downtown Athletic Club. There's a, there's a 25 yard pool in one of the high rises in downtown Manhattan. I would cycle up on the, on the west, west side highway in New York City and then you can cross the Washington Bridge and then you go up a road called 9W, I think. And every triathlete in New York knows it. And you run in Central park, right? So you take the, you take the subway up to, up to Central park and then Central park round is 10k and you do one or maybe one and a half. I think I've ever managed to make two, two rounds. So I trained for it and then we flew down to the Caribbean. And for me it was more like getting in a vacation from this stressful investment banking life. So for one week it was like relaxing and diving and a little bit of rum and Coke and a little bit of party. And I think I was, for the first time after my swimming career, I was really tapered or it was really resting and we were joking in front of, before the race what would happen. And so I had no real expectations, but it kept on going, going, going, and it, and it worked and it worked it. I could hold on to the to the pacing, to the. Didn't make really a strategy, but ended up winning my age group. And suddenly someone said to me, do you want to go to Kona? I'll do that, sure. And back then you had to make in when you applied or when you, when you entered a race, you had to make, you had to cross out. I want to get a corner slot. And luckily I just made that cross. I didn't really think about it beforehand, but. So if I hadn't make that one, you wouldn't be able to go. So I took the Kona slot and yeah, four, five, six months later or yeah, yeah, five months later I was on the plane to Hawaii.

It's just amazing how that's so different. So, like I'm busting a gut here and I'm a million miles away from qualifying for Kona. And Claire, you've just qualified for Kona, but you've been busting a gut to get there, haven't you? What do you make of that?

Me?

Yeah.

I was just about to ask actually, because I was going to bring this up because I wonder whether when you don't have huge expectations because Jan, you were saying, well, you know, you had a bit from. And coke, you're enjoying yourself. You know, you've been out partying a little bit, but you've been really well tapered and no like massive expectations. And I sometimes wonder whether that is actually very helpful to a stressful situation as well because you, you kind of just go out there and get on with it, don't you?

Well, I think there's a, I think you're, you're already pressing the right points. I think there is, you know, when you, when you look at races and when you look at people at the start line and especially Ironman or half ironman or qualifiers in general, you know, people, you know, I don't want to say, you know, it's good to be focused, but if you are, if you are so focused that you lose your, your relaxing when it's not relaxed anymore, then I think you can't perform at your peak. And, and the other thing I always say is I firmly believe that at least a quarter of the people at the start line are not rested well enough. I think that's, that's a common, common problem in coaching. And I think it's probably gotten better. But, but especially for Kona, you know, when you, when you see people at the start line in Kona, it's been a long season, it's been a long year. They've had to qualify. Then they fly out for 24 hours. They get to the island, they try to train a little bit more and see if it's all still there. And they get to the start line and they're basically, I mean the adrenaline is up but they won't have a great race because they, they get, they go tired into the race. So, yeah, I mean it, you know, back and back then, I mean it, maybe it wasn't as easy as I described it. I mean, obviously I came with a, with a huge, let's say engine from swimming and that engine was still running very well. And it's relatively, I would say, easy to translate it on the bike. Yes, you need more specific training for the run, but I think, and you can, you know, in a half distance, you can still fake it on the run if you, if you're not such a sophisticated runner in the end. So you just, you know, you hold on before you fade. So that's, I think, to put it a little bit into perspective how it all happened back then.

Brilliant. And I'm hoping you're heeding this advice, Claire, knowing what jam packed race schedule you've got for this year.

I was just about to ask actually as well, like your connection obviously when you were in investment banking, do you think that kind of, and maybe this is my perception of it being extremely stressful, but do you think that kind of your background and being in that stressful environment actually has helped but for competing because you're used to kind of being in a state of stress or being able to kind of calm yourself down in the state of stress?

Yeah, I think, I think it comes down to, also to personality or the nature of personality. You know, there's, I mean there's people out there who, for them, for them triathlon is everything, right? And they have their jobs and they have their lives and then there is this one, this one sparkle in their lives and it's triathlon and they give it all and they, and they, and they want it all. And then come race day come along, they, they, they tighten up because the burden is so heavy. So, so I think, you know, feeding from different areas in life and not placing too much value on the sport because, you know, you also, I think we always, we also, you know, can't take ourselves too, I don't want to say seriously and say, look who at the end of the day really cares whether an age grouper makes it to Kona or not. And there is not that many people. So I think be easy on yourself here and there a little bit. Of course it's easier for me to say this, having done all this before, but I think put things in perspective and say, look, it's not the end of the world if this doesn't happen. And have a glass of, if you are, if you like to enjoy your glass of wine every once in while a. In a while. Have a glass of wine the night before the race. It's not going to kill your race and maybe, maybe it'll make you sleep and that might be more beneficial to the next day than anything else.

That's the sort of advice we like. I like, like.

I said, I said one glass. Right?

One, not one bottle.

Exactly.

How did your first race in Kona go?

It didn't go as planned, I must say. So I had the whole family come out with me and everybody was super excited that, you know, they get their first trip to Hawaii. And so we flew out, I think two weeks before or 10 days before and we first went to the big. To the, to Oahu, to the other island. And I went on with my dad as a big avid thing fishermen. So we went on an, on an offshore fishing trip and it was a very, very rough day on the water and usually I don't get seasick but, but I got seasick like hell and I was the one feeding the fish. We didn't catch that many, but basically that was exactly one week before the race and, and I was pretty much completely exhausted. No more electrolytes, nothing. And it took me, yeah all the way to race day to, to recover from that, I would say. And yeah, I mean I, I did manage first out of water, but I had to really put everything into that and I wasn't really that first year. It was all about, I know, first out of water and then whatever the day holds for me and I wanted to finish it, take it off my, my bucket, a life to do list and then move on in life and then do this once and that's it. So, yeah, I mean, got first out of water. I think I arrived at ten and a half hours, which wasn't great, but wasn't bad either. It was a super windy day. There were a couple of girls that were blown off the highway literally with their bikes. It was absolutely horrific. But I was super happy to have, to have finished it, to have done it. And that's actually when I thought, okay, this is it, this is over. Now back to investment banking for the rest of my life.

Wow, that's so cool. The first appearance at Kona and You're first out of water, I heard you say, when I was doing my research, I think it was a quote from Mark Allen, wasn't it, about the power? Something along the lines of, the power is with the leader. So talk to us about that. You've obviously been first out of the water now a few times at Kona. Talk to me about that, Mark Allen saying, and what it really felt like to be leading the world Championships at Kona.

Well, I don't know where I picked it up, where I picked that quote up, but I think it was like the energy is with the lead. That. That was what he said. And, you know, it's hard to describe, and you have to, like, pinch yourself sometimes. And I get goosebumps when I talk about it, when I think about it, because, yeah, you get out of the water, and I mean, in the water, you don't really realize much or you don't really see much, but once you get out, you've got all the spectators, and then suddenly there is TV cameras in front of you, behind you, left, right and center, and you ride through town and everybody's cheering and everybody is super excited, and you go all out. Right. I mean, that's. That's what I did. And I mean, I knew I was going to fade, but, you know, enjoy the. Enjoy the glory as long as you can. And later, later on, in the subsequent years that I raced in Kona, it was important for the sponsors, obviously, to be out front as long as I could. And I think it was. It might have been the first year. And a German TV car came up to me and they interviewed me while I was riding in the front, and I thought, this is really, really cool. And basically, you know, you. You have goosebumps all the way. And I think the most special moment I've ever had leading that race was when you go past the. On the bike, you go past the airport, and then there's a scenic point, and then there's a long, long downhill, maybe like two or three miles or so. And. And the helicopter, the TV helicopter, went pretty much all the way down on the road maybe a mile in front of me. So I was riding in aero position towards that helicopter that was hovering on top of the road. And, I mean, goosebumps all over. That was probably the coolest moment ever. And then obviously, sooner or later, somebody would come, one of the big names. And then it ended within a second.

When the. When somebody. I can't remember who it was, somebody overtook you and they said, great, great racing or something. Didn't they? Who was that?

It was, it was actually Simon Lessing. That was in 2004 back then. My last attempt at the, at the swim record and I had missed it again by 20 seconds or so. And I was, I was leading the race obviously and I think it was at 40k into the bike or so. That was the second large group that came by or the first large group and he was at the end of it and I had met him a year before or so and I thought, I mean back then, Sir Simon, right? He was, he was the name in the sport and I couldn't believe it. Like he wrote by and he says, hey Jan, how are you? And did you get the record? I said no, I didn't. And so we chatted for like 10, 15 seconds or so and sure enough, 30 seconds later I got a penalty for talking to someone else. I don't, I still don't know why, but some of the, some of the Hawaiian bike cowboys gave me a four minute penalty and yeah, had to serve that in the end but for me it didn't really matter. So don't chat too much.

Well, I suppose because once you've been overtaken you've got to drop back, haven't you? Got to drop out of your, out of the window. But yeah, you wouldn't have been getting any advantage, that's for sure. So tell us a bit about trying to break the Kona swim record.

Well, I can tell you it took a really long time. So I raced Kona six times and I'll make it, I'll make it brief. First time I told you quite extensively that didn't work out. Second time around it was a year where it was super, super wavy. So they wanted, or they, they were about to cancel the swim because they were like 6 to 10 foot waves in the morning and there was a big storm at night. But then, and that's how the legend has been told, the dolphins came out and then everybody knew it was safe to swim. I think it was, there were 300 people that dropped out of the swim in that year 2002 because it was, it was a true rough water swim. And literally, you know, you, you could hardly see the buoys because of all the ups and downs that you were tossed around. And yeah, I swam a 48 and change and the record back then stood at 46, 44 and yeah, I had a five minute lead to the second guy out of the water. So that was also the year that I led all the way to Kawaii High So probably about 60, 70k into the bike year three, I really wanted it. So this is 2003 and I trained for it even, even more specifically. And the clock stopped at 46, 56 seconds over. That, that hurt. That really hurt it because, I mean, six seconds, it's 10 meters, right? And that's just luck or no luck. Right. And in 2004, last attempt, and that was a 47 and change was something like 20 seconds over. So didn't feel much better than in 2003, I can tell you. Yeah. And that was. And then I didn't qualify in 05. And then slowly but surely got into the business world. Never really forgot about the record. You know, I, deep down in myself, I was like, I deserve this one. But, you know, time goes by and you think, okay, that's it. But it was still there. And so in 2016, I returned to Kona. So I would go back frequently, but only to watch or to work a little bit for German TV as a student, swim expert, etc. And in 2016, I came back to, to help this kid, Patrick Lange, because it was his first year, and he asked me if I could tag along and I said, you know, I haven't been to Kona in four years, so, you know, check it out. And back then I stood at the start line and when the gun went off, you know, you. Everybody gets goosebumps. And I thought, well, why don't I know? I should, I should do this one more time, right? And let's. I should give it another shot. I stayed reasonably fit over the years and, and yeah, so the mission Kona swim record was revived, so to say. And this time I knew, okay, you know, this. I've done all these and these mistakes over the years. I've. I've thought it through a million times of what could have gone wrong and. But at the end of the day, you still need a very, very good day in the water in terms of conditions, right? So you don't want to have waves, you don't want to have wind. Obviously, there's. There's hardly any wind in Kona, but you don't. Ideally, there is no current or very little current because the current can be very strong, especially on the way back. And, you know, in 2018, I got, I was prepared and I got lucky with the, with the external conditions. And that's when it then finally happened.

Excellent. How much did you beat the record by?

15 seconds. So I was on the other side of the scale at that time, and now it's at 46 29. And it had stood for 23 years before was set in 1995 by Lars Jurgensen. And yeah, and then now people are accusing me that I put on Covid so that Hawaii wouldn't take place and the record stays on longer. It wasn't me. It wasn't me. I can't take the plane.

So you have the swim record for the fastest swim at Kona. I think you also potentially have another record at Kona, don't you? Do you want to tell us about that?

Yeah, I always say jokingly, the second record in Kona was actually at the same race and being the athlete that was passed the most, so I think I really have to look it up. I think I came in, in 1300 place or so still at a 1026 or 1029. But obviously the overall, the overall performance has, has, has increased a lot in Kona. So attend. You know, in my first year in 2001, the 1026 or so was 230th place. And 20 years later, or no, not 20 years later, but 17 years later, that same time got you 1300th place. So it's crazy how the, how the performance. It was also an easier year, but still, I think that's noteworthy. But yeah, I was passed by 1300 and something people.

A friend of mine is a very strong swimmer and he always, he's a good cyclist, but he struggles with his running, so he has exactly the same problem. How do you deal with that from a psychological perspective? Have you got any sort of advice for people that are very good? You know, their strongest element is the swimming and then they constantly spend the rest of the race getting past?

Well, I think it depends on, you know, it all depends on what you want to achieve, what you want to get out of this race. And if you are aware of the fact that you are not the greatest runner or not the greatest cyclist, then I think it's much easier psychologically than if you, you know, you try to hang on to this group and then you got, you get spit out in the end or you're trying to hang on the. To that runner and then he or she runs away. So I think, you know, at some point, usually during the, during the race, there is someone who, you know, who you see twice because they overpaced and then you'll see him again or her again. So that's. Those are the little psychological wins that you, that you should look for. And I also think on the run, then at the very latest, it kind of evens out a bit. And you usually find someone you can run with. And that's what I always did in pretty much all of my Ironman. At some point during the run, let it be 10k, 20k or so, you have someone who is, who is kind of in your. In your performance realm and. And then you just go with him or her. Yeah.

Do you find that's where you make the friend.

That's where you make the friendships. Right.

I was gonna say.

So you're actually chatting to these people, isn't it?

When you're, when you're chatting at that point or when you can just kind of pass them on the finish line, I think that's the best bit as well.

Yeah.

Well, I mean, if you, if you constantly chat to someone on the run, then you probably don't run fast enough. But if you, let's say if you chat with someone that runs next to you every kilometer or every aid station or so, then it can be, I think, very, very uplifting. And I've had a few of these experiences and it's. It's actually kind of cool. I haven't made friends for life, though.

Well, Claire knows all about passing somebody at the right at the end of a race because we did a 13 hour ultra marathon together. But you made sure that you crossed the line ahead of me, didn't you? So tell me a little bit about. So you were in investment banking and then you went off and created your own wetsuit brand and company, Sailfish. So tell us a little bit about that transition from the corporate life into setting up your own business and kind of what spurred that on.

Yeah, I worked in New York for a year, as I told earlier, and then I worked another year in Frankfurt for the same bank. And that happened to be the year 2002. When the Ironman in the. Back then it was called Ironman Europe because it was the first one in road Roth. How the, how the English say move from Roth to Frankfurt and because Frankfurt was preparing a bid for the Olympic games and so that's how they could make it happen to do a race like that in a major city in Germany. And I was working in Frankfurt and my boss back then, he was a super sports fan and he said, jan, you got to do that race. I mean, you've just done Hawaii and you got to do it. And I said, norman, I thought I was done with this and we're now going to make some money. He said, no, no, no, no, no, you have to do this race. I said, all Right, I'll do it. And that was pretty much the end of my investment banking career. I thought back then my plan was, okay, let's do triathlon for a couple of years. Let's travel around the world. Let's. I did an around the world trip actually for pretty much a year where I traveled just with a bike and then speedo wetsuits and running shoes. So that was really, really cool to be able to do that back then. And then I thought I would go to business school, get an MBA and go back into finance later on. But by 2004, I started selling wetsuits, not from Sailfish, different brand on the side. And that business exploded. And I mean, triathlon exploded. A lot of people got into the sport, and so the business part became more and more relevant. But I soon realized, and I think this was, yeah, 2006-2000-2005-2006, that it's a much better place to be in when you are the owner of a brand than being a distributor or being an agent. So that's when the idea of founding my own company, founding my own brand evolved. So, yeah, it didn't come overnight, but at some point, my girlfriend back then, she came up with a name, Sailfish. And she said, this is the fastest fish in the world. And, you know, you seem to be a pretty decent swimmer, so why don't you call the brand Sailfish? And so I looked it up and we, you know, you will go through a registering process, you trademark everything pretty much globally, the right classes, etc. And there it was born. Born out of the water in 2007.

Now it is a great name. And I love, I love the reason that you called it selfish. Actually, I think that's, that's brilliant. So tell us a little bit about, you know, when you're choosing a wetsuit. It's actually really tricky, isn't it, to know there's so much complexity around the subject. Tell us a little bit about how you can, how people should go about choosing a wetsuit.

Well, we, you know, everybody, every brand takes maybe not a different approach, but they take, they take a certain approach to their wetsuit line. And the way I look at it is, you know, you have certain types of swimmers, you know, you have swimmers who, who need a lot of support, who need a lot of buoyancy, because otherwise they're just like a brick in the water. I don't want to offend anyone, but that's what it looks like. And then there's athletes who have a great swimming Background, they have a great water position, and all they want is a little bit of neoprene so that they wear a suit, a little bit of cold protection. But other than that, they want flexibility and a very natural feeling to their swimming and so on and so forth. So we basically have four different suits, four different wetsuits, performance wetsuits in our line, and they are designed for a certain type of swimmer and also, I must admit, for a certain type of budget, because the more you pack into a suit, the more technology goes in, it also becomes a bit more expensive. So. But I would say that we can, you know, with a range of suits that we're offering, we can pretty much help every swimmer or every swimmer type on what he or she brings to the equation to the water. Yeah, that's our philosophy and our approach.

So how does somebody work out which of those suits, other than their budget, how do they work out which is the right suit for them?

Well, most importantly, and I mean, we do a lot of demo swimsuit, especially in continental Europe, is to try out a suit and to feel comfortable in it. And that's what I always say first, no matter what brand you're ending up buying. And the most important aspect of a wetsuit is that you feel comfortable in it because you will encounter stressful situations. And in those stressful situations, the last thing you want to think about is, oh, you know, I feel a little bit restricted here or there. It's. Then it's about solving the situation and not think about your wetsuit. So number one priority in my eyes is feel comfortable. And that's something that oftentimes you can only experience if you've tried it. But if you can't. Well, I mean, I don't want to, I don't want to be too commercial here, but I think our suits have a very, very good fit. And I think we were known for a very body ergonomic sizing patterns. So I think we can cover 98, 90, 97% of people in terms of fit really, really well. And then it really comes down to second decision is probably budget, whether you want to be on the top end or on the middle or on the lower end. And we've got solutions there, both in terms of buoyancy, flexibility, and. Yeah, so probably the best is there's a wetsuit finder. You type in a few characteristics and then it'll spit out a couple of options. What we believe is the best suit for you.

What sort of performance gains can you get from. So if somebody picked the. The Cheapest wetsuit on your range versus the most expensive wetsuit on your range. What sort of performance difference might they see?

I think it depends. It depends on the kind of swimmer you are. I've experienced so much in this area and it doesn't necessarily mean you'll get more performance gains from the top end suit. The top end suit might just suit you better. But let's say a bad swimmer bad, you know, call it relative. But a bad swimmer getting into a good suit might gain 10, 15 seconds per 100 meters. I've seen the most crazy things there. Whereas if you have a swimmer like me, I probably swimming with a suit versus swimming without a suit. It probably takes two to three seconds off per hundred of my time. So not that much. But will a top end suit with all the features help a better swimmer more than an entry level suit that is not so flexible? Yes, it will. And usually you only see the outcome or you see the benefits of a, of a high end suit. Not after 500 meters, not after a thousand meters. You, you see it in the last third of the race or especially or in an ironman. You, you know, on the second half of the, of the swim part, that's when people start, I don't, you know, start falling apart kind of. And that's when the, that's when their speed really drops. And that's when you, when you benefit from a really good start suit. Not in that, not in the beginning. You know, you can, you can stick anybody in a, in a relatively stiff suit and have them swim 500 meters. It won't make a huge difference, but the longer we go, the more important it is to have a good suit.

It's interesting.

Yeah, that makes sense, doesn't it? I suppose you can, you kind of, kind of power your way through the awkwardness to start with, but it gradually erodes your performance as time goes on. That's really interesting.

You see it to that point. To that point and that's something maybe also noteworthy for the listeners on the next race that you're watching, whether it's live or maybe even on a tracker. Watch the top pack of pros or watch how it unfolds and you'll see that on the second half of the swim part, that's when, that's when the distances really start to expand. And that's really when, when, when shift, when, when it shifts a lot in, in, in the water and when the proportional, better swimmers gain proportionally a lot more time than, than on the first half. Very interesting.

Yeah, no, that is really interesting. And so Sailfish is not a brand that I see about as much in the UK as some of, as the, some of the other brands. Are you, are you, you know, how would somebody buy one in the uk? And I also, I think you're just starting to break into the US now as well, aren't you? So tell us a bit about how you're looking to expand and how people can get hold of them.

Yeah, so even though I really do like the UK as a, as a country, it is well known that you guys have a few wetsuit brands who live there kind of or who are born there. And you know, from a business perspective you pick the battles that you can win. And I think, you know, if we would put an extreme amount of effort into the UK market, we could probably end up playing a significant role there. But you know, when you have a small company like mine, you really look for the opportunities or for the low hanging fruit and you look at markets where it's probably a little bit easier to break in then into the UK market where you have, you have all the competition, four or five brands who are, who are born there. And so we, you can, you can get our products in the UK from our own website, safish.com or I think everybody knows Wiggle. So Wiggle carries our product. Yeah, Wiggle carries our products as well. And in looking at the, at the global market, the UK is an important market so we're definitely servicing it to our best capabilities. At the same time we have started looking, not only looking, I am in the US right now at the US market and we're launching here. It's a five year project that we started two months ago and it's been fascinating getting to know the US from a different perspective this time and it'll be our main focus going forward.

Brilliant. And this road trip that you're doing is quite something, isn't it? So just give the listeners a little bit of an idea of what sort of road trip you're taking on.

Yeah, so when I thought about the Project usa, Sailfish usa, when we don't come in with a multi million or hundreds of thousands of marketing budget, so you really want to know or learn as much about the market as you possibly can. And I have a very good right hand in Germany right now who is running the day to day operations, Dennis. So he allows me, or basically that allows me to take some time, not off, but take some time over here. And I came up with a three months road trip. We started in San Francisco Went all the way down on the California coast to San Diego, obviously a major triathlon hub in not only in the US but also in the world, I would say. Then we went over to Phoenix, to Arizona, up to Las Vegas, spent a week in St. George for the World Championships, and then further up to Salt Lake City and then over to Colorado. And at the moment we're in Boulder and it'll continue by the end of the week with Chicago, then down to Memphis, over to Nashville, Louisville, Kentucky, Richmond, Virginia, up to Washington D.C. philadelphia, New York, and ending in Boston on Fourth of July. And that's. That's the trip. Yeah, so it combines. It. Yeah, it combines obviously getting to know the country, getting to know the people, getting to know the dynamics of the market. It's a completely different market than in Europe. And obviously making ties and making connections and starting partnerships for next year. So, yeah, this year it's all about learning and understanding. And next year it'll hopefully be about a bit of selling as well.

Brilliant. What fantastic trip that can be put under the banner of business. If ever there was an opportunity to merge business with fun. That sounds like it. So one of the things you obviously went on, you mentioned Patrick Laniger and you went on to support. Was it coaching him or. I know you were supporting him for.

A number of years.

Tell us a little bit about that and with a particular focus on how you helped him improve his swimming.

Well, so. So Patrick and I, we really go back and know each other since probably 2006 or 2007, somewhere around this for a very, very long time. And then he eventually. So I wasn't coaching him. So it was Faris. Faris Al Zultan who won was. Who was an Ironman Hawaii champion, I believe, 2007 or 2007, maybe. And he coached, started coaching him and. And his first race on the Ironman circuit was Ironman Texas back in 2016. And he won that race and ran a 240 marathon. So people were like, you know, wow. You know, it's. This is. This is pretty amazing for a first. For a first Ironman. And let's see what the guy. What the kid can do in Kona. So that's what he didn't. Nobody had any expectations. And he was completely under the radar. And he started the run in, I believe, 22nd or 23rd place. And he ran all the way up to third place that very first year for Dino 1. Sebastian Keener took second and Patrick had a penalty on the bike. And if you subtract those four minutes Whatever it was, he actually, like, mathematically, he would have, he would have won the race. So there was something in the making and something in the coming. And yeah, day after the race, Bob Babbitt, very famous figure in the sports of triathlon, he called me and he says, do you know anything about this kid Patrick? And I said, yeah, he's standing right next to me. And he said, you know, why don't you come to breakfast with Bob? And that's kind of how my, my role started to become his manager and agent. And that's what I did for, for five years. And I think, yeah, history. I don't think history has been made, but obviously he won Hawaii twice, 2017 and 2018. It was fascinating. It was, you know, it was absolutely a great, great experience to see him win those two races, which I both raced in as well. And yeah, we had, we had an, we had an amazing time. I think he, he, he made some good sponsors that he still has today. And yeah, it was, it was a hell of a ride, I can say that.

Fantastic. And I think his swim performance improved over the time. Working with you, are there any single sort of concepts that you, you remember that have sort of helped him improve his swimming?

Yes. And, you know, and I made it very clear from the very beginning in the relationship when Faris was the coach, Patrick the athlete, and I was the manager. So the three of us, we had a very clear understanding that everybody takes care of their role. And my role was not coaching, but I said, look, if you need, if you want, or if you need advice when it comes to the swimming part, I'm happy to give it. So eventually, you know, I have a, I have a certain approach to, let's say, the last six weeks leading up to a major race, let it be Kona or any other race in the season. There is, I have some say, standardized practices that, that also I did on my, on my way to the swim record. And I just know it works because I've done it many, many times in my lives back even in the, in the pool when I, when I swam 1500 free, which was. Used to be my main event. And it's not that different than a 3.8k when it comes to training. So I, you know, I never did any technical corrections with a stroke because for that you need to be on the pool deck on a, On a daily basis. But those guys in, in the, in the, in the elite, in the world elite, their strokes are usually 98, 95% solid. So that's not really what they need to work on. It's really the swim specific endurance or the swim specific power also, especially second half. I spoke about it earlier of the, of the swim part, so that's a good piece of advice that I gave him and a little bit of a blueprint on how to do it. And I think it showed up really, really nicely in 2019. Unfortunately, he had to drop out soon thereafter, but I think his swim is very solid and has definitely improved over the years. And he can most certainly maybe not be at the front of the, of the top pack, but he can always hang in the, in the back of the front pack and that, that makes it very dangerous for everybody else or later on in the day.

And one of the things I remember hearing you also helped him was his approach to the warmup on race day. I think, I think I'm right in saying that, that, that really surprised me how much warming up you did on the morning of race day with, with a swim. So tell us a little bit about that.

Well, maybe the best analogy is to look at it when you look at a diesel engine. A diesel engine takes a long time to warm up, but once it runs, it runs. And a lot of these ironman athletes or long distance athletes, they are diesel engines to a certain degree. I mean, you've got all the kids coming in from the world triathlon circuit, from the ITU circuit that have a lot of power and speed in them, but at the end of the day, it's a, it's a diesel race if you're, if you're out there for eight hours or a little bit less. So, and that engine needs to be, needs to be warmed up. And what always struck me, you know, Patrick had a, had a duathlon background and, and he wouldn't, he wouldn't swim the day before the race. He just was just used to it. Right. And so, you know, you have race start and, and I always say that if everybody was reasonable at an, at a triathlon race, everybody would start the swim at their own pace and not any faster. But of course, the first 50, 100, 200, 400 meters. The way these races start is it's all about adrenaline and lactate. So they get a lot of lactate in. And so the one who, who can compensate that best is usually really well off later on in the swim because, because you're just not building up so much, so much lactate. So, and in order to not build up so much, if you are a good swimmer or, or if you're a contender and for, for top spot in the race, you have to warm up. And I, and I, and I said, Patrick, you know, go in the water the day before the race, at the, in the evening, just swim a thousand easy or whatsoever, maybe a little bit of, of, of testing, testing the waters and, and, and go up with a heart rate. And if possible, in the morning, either you swim, you warm up in the water or you warm up with a, with a cord on, on land so that you know, you must, you must sweat, you must be, your body must be already full on and then it won't be, you know, it'll take a lot of stress out of the start. You know, can I, can I go right away full on from the, from the gun? It's, those are the questions that they ask themselves. And if you have already warmed up and you're like, you know, your body is already ready to go, it's a lot easier to survive those first 100, 200 meters than if you go, if you are, if it's a cold start. And I think he took that advice or he, I know he took it and he's preparing his immediate race preparations differently now than he used to. And it works.

Brilliant. Brilliant. That's really more warming up than I would ever have considered doing. I think I felt like hearing that I might be exhausted before I even started the race.

But.

Yeah, no, that's really interesting. There's so much advice out there for people in the triathlon world. One of the questions I like to ask people is what's the worst advice you hear being given when it comes to swimming, particularly around the triathlon world? Is there any bad advice you hear being thrown around?

Well, I don't want to single out anyone and I thought about this question beforehand, but you know, there's, you need to find a balance, I think in training. And then, you know, I think when, when, when coaches or when athletes, when they think too much about technique or too much about the opposite, just yardage, getting in yardage, that's, that's usually not a way to succeed in the end. I do believe in, in, in consistency. So I think that's the, that's the most important part when it comes to swim practice and swim training. So what I don't believe in is, is let's say in, in the winter people are inclined to swim more, but then they go on a training camp for two, two weeks training camp in the spring and suddenly they only swim. They only, they only ride their bikes and run and then they lose all their swimming because Swimming, swimming goes away very, very quickly. So, so what I would say is, you know what, no matter what, what, what, you know, what you read, what people say to you, try to keep, try to keep your swimming consistent. You know, try to keep, try to make it twice a week to the pool. That's usually the minimum and that's that, that'll work. Then you can improve your swim. Yes, of course, do work on your technique a little bit more in the wintertime and then once it comes to spring and race season, there's not that much time left and you shouldn't really be working too much on your technique and you should really focus on getting faster and having more endurance, more power in the pool or in open water. And I think the single most determining factor for a good open water swim is swimming in a straight line. So I leave that with all its implications out there. But I see so many people who have decent swim times in the pool and then they get into the open water and then suddenly they get passed by people who they would never even look at in the pool. So I think that's a very, very important aspect in the open water swimming world is to swim, to try to be able to swim in a straight line. And that takes practice.

I was going to say, is there any one piece of advice if somebody was like me, meandering all over the place on the swim, is there any advice that you would give to try and, or any sort of training that you would give them to try and get their swim straighter?

That's a difficult one because you can't put out a recipe for everybody. It's just impossible. Some people don't swim in a straight line because they breathe only to one side and then they swim off to the other. Then if you have a stroke where you, let's say you overreach underwater with one arm to the other side, that also tends to result into not swimming in a straight line. Then there is the simple fact that in the open water, usually you don't see the ground and there's less points of reference. Sometimes you don't even see the buoy and all that. So my, my single piece of advice would be the more, if you know that you're bad in this, the more you can train in open water and the more you can do these orientation exercises and look at landmarks, look at buoys, see which way you veer off, the more you can train that, the better you'll get. But it is something that it won't come natural. I mean, you can always Stick to the, to the feet in front of you. But I've had, you know, I've had my experiences with that and, and then you end up someplace else. So don't ever. Don't trust the feet in front of you.

Exactly. You know, you don't know whether they're making exactly the same mistakes that you are.

Exactly.

So this has been absolutely brilliant. One question I ask everybody that comes on the podcast is are there any books that you found particularly helpful, particularly inspiring, find yourself recommending to other athletes? And that doesn't even have to be in the triathlon world. It could even be a business book and, or even something other than a book. But are there anything, any books that specifically stand out for you that you find helpful?

Yes. So I spoke in the beginning, we spoke a lot about Flow and there is a book out there on flow. It's from a Russian author that I shouldn't.

Mikhail Chechnyai or something along those lines, isn't it?

Exactly, exactly. So if anybody is interested in that concept, he's written. I think it's a couple books, books already on that. So I would recommend that. And one of my favorite book in the, in the business world is Shoe Dog by Phil Knight. It's an absolutely great story about the history of Nike. And when I read it probably for the first 10 years, his story is so similar to, to, to mine and I was like, wow, so, so when are my sales going to explode? Right. But I guess for that I'm not, we're not in the right market for that, but really. Yet. Exactly. Maybe, maybe this podcast will change the world of wild mountain open water swimming and there's a new global movement into those sports. No, but it was really, really fascinating and how he did it and the team he assembled around himself and, and where it all ended up. So that was really, really a cool read. Very inspiring.

I agree. I think that is a really inspiring read for any, anybody that's running their own business or setting up their own business. Because what I loved about it was he was. They were so on the brink of going bust. Lost count of how many times it was like the next check the Net. It was like so many times it nearly ended. And to think that that was Nike and to think where they are now is absolutely amazing. So, yeah, no, that's really good. And flow I haven't read. It's on my reading list, but I've not read it. So that's brilliant. Claire. Have you got any more questions you want to ask, Jan?

No, I don't think so. Actually. I like the idea of reading about Flow, though. I think that sounds super interesting in terms of. From a psychology perspective. I think that sounds fascinating. So I'm definitely going to be diving into one of those books which I will read especially.

Especially in Leading up for Kona. Right. So you know when you're then there on the start line and you can just get into the flow and then nine hours later you reach the finish line and you don't even know what happened.

Now that would be amazing, wouldn't it? Not only to know.

But Flow is one of those books that gets referenced in so many other books. It's a bit like. Like thinking fast and slow, Carol Dweck's mindset. You know, there's a. There's a handful of books that get referenced time and again and Flow is. Is one of them. So I'm sure that is a fantastic recommendation. Jan, it's been an absolute pleasure chatting to you. Thank you for the advice. Brilliant story. Love, love the fact that you have the swim record at Kona, but also that story around leading the race. I think it's absolutely brilliant and I just want to wish you every success with Sailfish. I hope you crack the US market. And we're seeing you on Sailfish is on the corner of Oxford street, just across from Microsoft and Nike in Phil Knight's shoes.

Well, we already set up our warehouse in Beaverton in Oregon next to Nike, just to let them know where around.

Fantastic.

Thanks so much for having me on the show. It was really great.

If you want to find out more about Yan or Sailfish, the best place to go to is sailfish.com on Instagram, the Sailfish underscore triathlon, and on there.

On Facebook as well.

Again, details are in the show notes and on on the Sailfish.com website.

So what did you make of that conversation with Jan?

It was awesome. Do you like. I actually formed a really good picture of this kind of idea of the helicopter coming down in front of him.

Oh, me too.

Cycling. That just must be that feeling like, you know, for that. Even for that amount of time, but that amount of time that he was in front was. Was still great. Was he like 70? He was 70k ahead, wasn't he?

Yeah.

He was not 70k in the lead cyclist.

Yeah, yeah.

With the helicopter coming down. That just must be so cool.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I would have thought if that happened to me, I would have thought there's some horrendous accident in front of me rather than me being.

You Know, in October, it might be happening to you, you might get the same experience. Actually, what actually won't, because what I did here when I was doing my research on Jan is that they've changed the format. I hadn't really picked up on the. So the pros now go off way ahead of the age groupers. And so actually, even if you nail a swim and you're first out the water in your swim wave, you're not going to get the helicopter, I'm afraid.

No, quite disappointing, but.

It did sound really cool. So what else did you take out away from the conversation with Jan?

I thought that, you know, some of the advice that he gave around, you know, the tips for swimming and warming up beforehand and, you know, I think that kind of rings really true with working with athletes is there's so much energy lost with like, adrenaline at the start of, you know, races. And actually doing some warm up, I thought actually is a really good way to focus as well, so that you can kind of actually kind of harness, harness your energy, warm up that diesel engineering, you know, and get going. And also the idea of, you know, practicing sighting as well. I know he didn't go into too much in depth on that, but I think that's really important. Athletes are often spending so much time in the winter, as he said, in the gym. In the gym, in the pool and then kind of that, you know, that drops off when they come into race season. I thought that was really, you know, really important sort of takeaway, really.

Yeah, I thought that was, that was really good advice in that you. I, I often think it's. It's better to just get my swimming done in the pool because there's obviously it's much more controlled environment, it's quicker, it's less inconvenient off. Well, you, for me it is, but, but also there's that risk of the more open water swimming you do, the more likely you are to pick up a bug. And, and, but actually that I thought that was. Yeah, it was, you know, just practicing more and more to get that, get your swim line straighter is good advice.

And some really interesting points about the wetsuits. I was really interested to speak to him about that as well. Like, you know, that idea of actually, you know, finding a wetsuit that's right for you because I think, I don't know what your thoughts are on this, but I think, you know, reading kind of some of our magazines that are available in the UK or looking at kind of, you know, what's the best triathlon wetsuit. Like I think often as triathletes we, we go for like a brand either that one of our, one of the top athletes is wearing or something that's been voted the best. And actually it's got to fit you, hasn't it, at the end of the day, otherwise it's not going to do anything for you. So that came across, that was really interesting for him to talk about kind of their line of wetsuits and how they designed them. Really.

Yeah.

And for me that kind of highlighted the importance of actually just going and trying wetsuits because I mean, particularly in this day and age where we all just want to shop online, it's actually I could really see the value in going and finding, going out your way to try something, which I suppose is why he's currently heading across the US he's just giving the right people the opportunity to try a wetsuit that may feel a little bit different.

Yeah. Fantastic. And just such like his experiences and where he's come from and yeah, it was a really exciting interview. I liked it.

Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely brilliant. And those books, I cannot recommend Shoe Dog highly enough for any business owners. I think that is a tremendous book. Really, really good and flow. I'm definitely gonna go.

Yeah, actually both of those books just need to, you know, not allow them to stack up in my bed. But other than that, they both sound amazing actually. And I didn't know about the night book, so I'm probably the only person that doesn't.

But yeah, well, interestingly so. I've only just made this link, but when I interviewed Dino from Huub, he also recommended Shoe Dog as one of his favorite books because I remember talking to him about it. And I think if you're in that sports manufacturing space, it is just an amazing story. It really is. So. And I suppose you've just got that, that even greater affiliation. It made me want to go into running shoes, I have to say. Yeah, it really did get get me excited. Right, Fantastic. Well, that's another episode done. Thank you for your help, Claire, and yeah, I hope you feel a bit better soon. And for everybody else, keep on training.

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