From First Marathon To Desert Champion: Ryan Sandes On Risk, Resilience, And Running For Joy

Foreign.

Rather try something and fail hopelessly than think like what if I didn't want to look back in 40 years time and think what if I've always believed in kind of living every day as if it were your last in this.

Episode, we're honored to feature South African trail legend Ryan Hedgy Sands, a living testament to what a curious mind, unwavering discipline and bold risk taking can achieve. From lining up for his Foot First Marathon in Knysna with just three weeks of training, to winning the Gobi Desert Ultra and becoming the first to ever win all four of the Desert Ultras to his landmark Western States victory, Ryan has consistently redefined what's possible in the sport of ultrarunning. He's faced setbacks from glandular fever to being attacked by the locals and emerged stronger and wiser. In our conversation, we'll hear what truly motivates him. How racing for fun is better than racing for medals, and how important the small wins really are. Whether you're an endurance athlete, a business leader, or a dreamer, a term that Ryan himself loves to use, Ryan offers strategies to help you push further, think smarter, and live more resiliently. So let's dive into the episode with the amazing Ryan Sands. Do you know what? When we look at the back end of this podcast, then we see something really interesting. We see that 57% of the people that regularly listen to it haven't hit the subscribe button. So could I ask you a quick favor before we dive into today's episode? If you're enjoying Claire and I bringing you amazing guests, not asking you for patronage fees, and not jamming the podcast full of adverts, then the best way you can help us continue to do that and make it even better is to hit that subscribe button. And here's my promise to you. When you subscribe, we'll make it our mission, along with the team that supports us, to continue to improve this podcast every week. So thank you so much for your support and for being a part of the Business of endurance community. Let's dive in. So Ryan, welcome to the Business of Endurance podcast. I am really looking forward to chatting to you all things running. Plenty of South Africa and some loads of other stuff too I suspect. And I'd really love to kick things off with how you started running because you weren't actually a runner as when you were at school, that wasn't your primary sport, was it? And you sort of fell into running almost as an excuse to drink beer, I think, which is a brilliant way of falling into running. So tell us a bit about that first marathon that you did in Knysna. How did it all happen? And how did you do compared to how you and your mates expected you to do?

Yes. Hi, Charlie and Claire. Really cool to be chatting to you. Yeah, as you mentioned, I guess it's fair to say I got into running by accident or stumbled upon running. It was my last year at university. I was studying honours and I had a whole bunch of friends going up to run an out of town marathon. But it also, it was quite a big kind of party weekend and I'd been up there a couple of times just for the party. But I thought seeing that I was in my final year of studies and doing my honors, that I needed to be a little bit more responsible and at least have a good excuse to go up and have a party. So I decided to join them and they were running the half marathon. Unfortunately, or fortunately for me, I left entering until I think it was like three or four weeks before the race and actually discovered that the half marathon entries had closed, but there were still a couple of full marathon entries. So I guess being a student and pretty like young and naive, I thought half marathon, marathon, kind of same thing. And so I entered the marathon and yeah, I mean, I think I had just over three weeks of training to, yeah, kind of time left to actually train for the marathon. And yeah, didn't train much for it. Lined up at the start line and I guess to my surprise and my mates from varsity surprise, I actually finished the marathon and really enjoyed it. And I think for me it was just kind of that feeling of setting yourself a goal that you didn't know if you could actually achieve and actually going out there and achieving it and just that feeling of fulfillment of actually crossing the line just kind of. It was out there running the Knysna Marathon that the running bug bit. And I think it was more than just running. As I mentioned, it was about that. That feeling of fulfillment. And the Knysna Marathon, it's a kind of classified as a road marathon, but I would say a good kind of 60, 70% of it is on kind of forest road. So I definitely, yeah, kind of from the start of my career gravitated towards more the trails and yeah, the kind of the kind of out there adventures.

I mean, it's a beautiful part of South Africa. I think I'm right in saying it's renowned for its oysters and it's a really beautiful place on the Garden route. But what time did you do? I mean, how did that marathon go? Three weeks of training. I think you're playing rugby before that, weren't you? But no proper run training. So how did it go? Did you hit the wall and it was, it was a horrible meltdown or did it just go remarkably well?

Yeah, I mean it was actually quite crazy to, to think back. It was like, yeah, just, just over 20 years ago. So it was quite a while. So to actually. Yeah, I'm just trying to, trying to think now. Like, I remember it went pretty well up until like 30k's and I definitely struggled the last 10 or 12 kilometers. And being out on like the, the forest roads, it was quite a hilly and mountainous or quite a hilly marathon. I mean, I think there's 6 or 700 meters of elevation gain over the, the full distance or maybe it's closer to a thousand meters. So by marathon standards, it's, it's, it's quite hilly. So I mean I felt really good the first 20, 30 K's and then definitely hit the wall. But I mean I think that is normal probably for, for a marathon generally, kind of whether you're well trained or not. I guess the final 10km or so is tough, but timing wise, I mean it was about between 3 hours and 15 minutes and 3 hours and 20 minutes. So I mean, I guess it was, was fairly a decent time for that type of marathon. But yeah, like I said, I think just kind of going into it with no real expectations, just kind of wanting to, to finish it. Yeah, I mean, I think I just saw it as this, as this cool kind of adventure. But I guess having said, said all of that, I've always been a, a really competitive person. I mean I played a lot of rugby at school and was always very competitive with, with rugby and I guess whatever I do, I mean, it's not for me like about beating someone else. It's about kind of being the best I can be and just kind of getting the best out of myself in the, in the situation.

I think that's incredible. I think there'll be a lot of people listening to this going. You put three weeks, okay, you were playing, you were running on a rugby field, but you put three weeks of run training in and on a hilly marathon, you come out somewhere between 3:15 and 3. I mean that's just. It is a phenomenal sort of baptism of fire to, to get into, into running. And then I believe the next step, your first ultra was the Gobi Desert. So tell us a bit about what made you sign up for that. What Was your preparation for that like? And how did the Gobi Desert run play out?

Yeah, I guess so. After the Neista Marathon coming back to to Cape Town I was living on the backside of Table Mountain in a in a town called and I joined the local running club there. And I mean this was back in 2006 and I mean trail running was was very new then as a sport. But a lot of the the runners in in the club did a lot of their running in in the mountains being on the back slopes of of Table Mountain. So very quickly joining the local running club or the Harper Harriers I started joining some of the the runners for for runs on the trails and just absolutely loved it. And from there entered a couple of trail races. And when I say trail races I think there were like three or four trail races in Cape Town. So I ran like two of them and just really loved the experience. And then I remember it was one one Sunday afternoon I was I was Googling extreme trail races and I popped the 4 deserts website and I was actually at the time reading Dean Carnazes book Ultramarathon Man. He was a famous or is a famous ultramarathon runner I think like kind of one of the the years of the the sport. And I was reading his book at the time and up popped the 4 deserts website and I saw he was actually running the series at the time. So I thought this would be an an amazing opportunity to do something completely out there. What a cool adventure it it would be. So entered the the Gobi Desert Race to be honest actually got things a bit a bit wrong. I thought the deposit was actually the full entry fee so very quickly realized I didn't have the funds. I had to go to my dad for an interest free loan which he luckily gave me. And then secondly actually had to figure out where the Gobi Desert was obviously with Google that was quite quite easy to find out and obviously realized it was in China and that was about six months out from the the race. I guess from that point onwards unlike the Knysna Marathon I did put in a lot of training, did a lot of research and I mean took the race as seriously as possible but it was pretty tough training for the event. I just started working in the corporate world. So yeah trying to fit in a really busy job and train for something like this. And also I just moved into a place on my own side moved out of my my parents house. So yeah it was there was a lot of lot of change. I remember once or twice actually running On Table Mountain. I phoned my mom and I was like, please can you, can you come fetch me up, pick me up. I just can't run another, another kilometer. So it was, was tough. I mean I think literally a lot of the even just live off microwave popcorn which is the easiest thing to do. I was so tired after work and training but like I said I put a lot of effort into it and did quite a bit of research. So went into the race, I mean I was confident I could get a good result. To be honest. Running the Gobi Desert race, It was a 250 kilometer race, self supported. So you had to carry everything that you needed to take with you for the full seven days except for water, rations of water that the race would give you. And then also they, they provided like a tent but apart from from that you had to carry all your own stuff. I mentioned it was over seven days, six stages. Most of the, the stages were about 40 kilometers long and then on the the long stage was just over 80 kilometers. Just training for, for that and preparing was, was quite a challenge. I mean that the longest race I'd run up until then was a 42 kilometer road marathon or I think it was a 36 kilometer trail race. So I was definite into the unknown but I mean I was confident that I'd prep really well. I was naturally a competitive person and I think I was secretly hoping for like a top 20 or top 30. And yeah, I remember lining up at the start of the race just being so nervous, just thinking like what the hell have I got myself into? I mean it was an expensive race to, to get to train for. I mean the entry fee was three, three thousand dollars or three and a half thousand dollars. I mean I was kind of having visions of, of kind of. I could have spent three, three months on a kind of island with my mates instead of doing this but so it was quite daunting standing on that that start line. But yeah, after the start gun went everything just seemed to to click. I really just focused on running my own race. And I mean I remember coming on that first stage, coming into into the final aid station and the aid station person said you're in second position. And I was like looked at them shocked. I couldn that I was in second position. And they're like yeah, the guy leading the race is just in front of you. And I mean that was like the first time. I actually kind of went into to race mode and basically just tried to run as fast as I could until the finish line and I think with like 3 or 4 k's to go past the guy leading the race and won that first stage. And I think for me like what is going through my mind, I just said like all I wanted to do was like win one stage. I mean I said to myself like if I've got to walk the rest of the stages, like who cares? It's a, about kind of living for the moment and I would be the first South African to, to win a stage. So I mean, yeah, it was, I was really chuffed and stoked with myself to, to win that first stage and then yeah, I guess going into the rest of, of the race. Woke up that second morning feeling very stiff and sore and thinking like what have I, what have I done? And again it's been cool to see how the sport has progressed because back then it was a lot more kind of older people that, that were doing the sport. So I know like a lot of people are thinking like what's this like youngster done? I mean he's gonna crash and burn like his race is over. So I mean I had that in the back of my mind. But yeah, I started day two, the second stage and again ran conservatively and then again kind of coming into the final aid station, found myself leading the race and won the second stage and the rest of the remaining stages and kind of won the race again. It was, it was a big surprise for me and I think most of the people at the race. But yeah, I think it was that race that the Gobi Desert Race had definitely kind of changed my trajectory in life. I mean I studied quantity surveying at the University of Cape Town and was working for a property development company. But I think it was on the bus on the way back to, to the hotel from the, the final stage of the Gobi Desert Race that I was thinking like she's imagine I could do this on a, on a kind of full time scale. I mean this is so much cooler run around the world than kind of, yeah, working for a big property development company, counting toilets or having a boss shout at you. So it got the Gobi Desert Race. Kind of got my cogs turning in my brain. I was very lucky to have met Dean Conaza there. Picked his brain for a lot of advice. And I think it was about six months after the Gobi Desert Race that I decided to kind of take the plunge and try and run fully professionally. I mean at the time when I did make that decision, I remember the one day kind of going to my parents house and going to Speak to my dad and telling him that I'm going to quit my job and become a professional runner. I remember his whole face just kind of dropping. He was like my number one supporter and my biggest fan. But he kind of, I know we were going into like a big recession at the time and he was like, don't you think it's a good idea just to keep your job? And I was like, no, this is what I, what I want to do. And I kind of took the, took a chance and luckily it was, it worked out for me.

It's just so amazing to hear you talk about, you know, running the marathon in Knysna and then a couple of trail runs and there you are winning. You know, the whole of that, that, that Desert Ultra is just amazing. You talked about having, you know, this job before you did the race, but day after or maybe that evening when you'd won and you'd also beaten Dean as well, what actually changed in terms of inside to make you make that decision that this was going to be your profession? What was it that kind of really clicked inside?

Yeah, I mean, I think it's a really good, good question. And I think it wasn't like, I mean, I think it was more like a subconscious decision, I mean even to go and run the, the Gobi Desert race. I mean in many ways I felt like kind of going and working in, in, in the corporate world, almost like a little bit claustrophobic. Just. I've always have been quite a free spirit and I've always believed in kind of living every day as if it were your last. So I mean, I think finishing the Gobi Desert, I thought like this could be this incredible opportunity to do something completely different. And I think for me it's like I would rather try something and fail hopelessly than think like what if. So I mean, I think the decision to kind of go from the Gobi, develop, I mean of chase this dream of becoming a professional trail runner when, I mean, I think there were only a handful of trail runners at the time. I think it was purely just that, like I didn't want to look back in 40 years time and think what if? And to, yeah, I guess to, to turn that into a reality was really difficult and challenging at times and quite frustrating. I mean the, the sport is, I mean it is a very niche sport. It's obviously got a lot more traction and become more mainstream. But to actually find sponsors and to actually do it fully professional was, yeah, it was, was very challenging. And I mean the first when I Actually quit my, my job. I knew I had like six months of savings to kind of get by, but I wasn't actually making enough money off running to actually survive. So yeah, I guess it was, was quite, quite risky. But like I said, I think for me Ian Carnazes was really influential in terms of seeing that, just seeing someone else actually having done it. But also I remember it wasn't the, the Gobi Desert race, it was the next race I did with him. It was a Sahara desert later that, that year that after I'd won that I was just really trying to kind of soak up as much knowledge from Dean as possible and he said something to me. It's like winning races is great, but it's not necessarily going to get you sponsors. And I think that's always stuck with, with me in terms of. Yeah, for sure. Being a professional athlete is, it's important to, to win and to do well. And I mean if I hadn't of, of one and had had success along the way, I probably wouldn't be sitting here now. But I think also at the same time it was so important in those early years to just kind of think outside the box and almost see myself as a business. I guess in many ways it was like, I guess the best way to describe because trail running was such a new sport, it was like kind of applying for a job but you didn't know what the job description was. I mean, essentially I had to make my, my own. So I mean that was quite, quite daunting. But at the, I think for me it really like made me feel alive and I really felt like I was in control of my own destiny.

What mistakes do you think? Like, obviously the, as you said, like the ultra running has really changed since when you, when you first won that ultra and made that decision. What advice would you give someone new making that decision right now? Like, is there anything that you would have done differently in terms of you starting out in that?

Yeah, I mean it's, it's interesting. I almost feel like now because the sport is so much more professional, I mean, I find it's almost getting like harder and harder for up and coming athletes to do well. So I think for me the important thing is to just really focus on yourself and kind of tell your, your story and kind of do what you want to do and then find like the partners that, that kind of fits what you want to do. Don't kind of change what you're doing to like tie into a partner. I think it's those kind of unique human stories that are, that are really important and kind of finding what, what makes you different, not just necessarily follow following what everyone else is doing. Yeah, I mean, I also just think kind of my advice would just be choose your team around you carefully. I mean, I think having the right support team is so important. And then again, just going back to partners, I think. I mean, I've noticed in the last couple of years with the sport getting more professional, there's a lot more kind of movement between partnerships and relationships. Kind of chop and change the whole time. Where I found in, in my career, where I've had, I've had a number of highs, but I've also had a lot of lows that really kind of looking after those partnerships have really helped me through the tough times and kind of knowing that those partners have had my back. So I mean, I think that that's also really important, like just really nurturing those, those relationships and growing together.

And you've got a really interesting name for your sponsors or partners, haven't you? Which is not a term I'd heard before. Share that with people.

Yeah, I mean, I always, I call my, my partners dream givers and yeah, I mean, I guess, as I said, not, not a guess. I mean, I wouldn't be sitting here right now if it wasn't for the incredible kind of dream givers I've had along the, the way. And yeah, I mean a lot of my, my partners I've had right from, from the start. So I mean, I'm really, really proud of that and also grateful for them to. They are having supported me through thick and thin.

Brilliant. And so you mentioned there, you've mentioned the Gobi win, you've mentioned the Sahara win. I think I'm right in saying you're still the only person that's won all four of the Desert ultras. Which one of those do you think stands out as the most special for you in your mind and why?

I guess definitely I would say that the first being that the Gobi Desert, just because to be honest, I remember like two or three weeks out telling myself that like, once I'm done with the Gobi Desert, I was gonna throw my running shoes away and start spending more time with my mates again and kind of have a few, few more beers and yeah, just, just be a little bit more normal. And I think it, yeah, it was obviously as soon as I'd finished the Gobi Desert race, like I mentioned, it was just surreal feeling. But also this like feeling of emptiness was like, what next I'd invested like six months, I poured my heart and soul into it and all of a sudden it was like, like what, what, what next? And I mean as, as I mentioned, I was lucky after Gobi to pick up a few, a few sponsors and to do the next race in, in the series. But I mean going, going back to. Yeah, for sure, definitely. I have to say that the Gobi Desert was definitely kind of out there. That changed my trajectory in, in life.

Brilliant. And I've listened to a few other podcasts where you've been on and I haven't heard you talk really in any detail about you winning. Qualifying for the Western States is the pinnacle of many people's ultra running career, but to go out and win it is just incredible. So tell us a bit about what it meant to you to get to race the Western States and then to win it and how did that race play out? Because I don't really know that story.

Yeah, so obviously The Western States 100 miler is the original 100 miler, so there's a lot of prestige, a lot of history. Actually before I ran the western states first 100 mile and my first 100 miler was the, the Leadville 100 miler, which is also another well known 100 miler in, in the US and I ran the Leadville 100 miler in 202011 and won that. And then in 2012 I came and ran the, the Western states 100 miler and I was, I was second that year but both Timothy Olson who won and myself went, went under the course record. So to be honest, I thought I'd come back the following year and have a good shot at, at winning the Western States. That didn't happen. I think a few weeks out from, from traveling from Cape Town to the US I sprained my ankle badly, tore some ligaments. I didn't get to, to run it in 2013. And then yeah, there was, there was a few years of like, I mean I think I came fourth and then yeah, I was fourth and then I think it was ninth or something and then so it wasn't, there weren't quite the performances I hoped for for there and then I came back in, in 2017 and, and won it and I mean for me just that the whole story had been a couple of years like building up to two Western states. And when I did finally win it, my wife was there, my mom was there, our newborn son was there. So I mean it was a really special day out and just a really memorable day. But for Me it was more just the build up like kind of the highs and lows along the way. As I mentioned, I sprained my ankle the one year I couldn't race it. Actually one of the years a couple of days out I got food poisoning. Couldn't line up. So yeah, it was quite a, quite a roller coaster to to get there. And then also a really famous South African runner, Bruce Fordyce, he actually signed a book for me way back in like 2011 and he wrote in the, in, in the book to a future Western States champion. So that had always stuck in in my mind and I really look up to, to Bruce Fordyce and really wanted to, to honor that. So I remember kind of actually paging through that that book a few weeks before leaving for for, for western states in 2017. So to actually honor that was, was, was really cool. But yes, I think the beauty about trail running and and running ultras is that it's such a humbling sport. I mean there's one minute you feel like you can be on top of the world and the next minute you hit hit rock bottom. And also the, the thing I enjoy about, about ultra running, I mean it's not like riding a bicycle where you can have a mechanical and running if you have a mechanical, the only, only person you can blame is, is yourself or your legs or getting your nutrition wrong or kind of your pacing pacing wrong. So I mean that, that's really cool and as I mentioned can be really humbling at times and I think that's.

Probably a nice segue actually into the utmb. So you'd have the Western States as the sort of maybe the most iconic race in the US and then you've got the UTMB which is the most iconic race in Europe. Your relationship with that has not been quite so good, has it? So what's your, your take on the UTMB now? Will you ever kind of do it again? You know what's, you've just seen Tom Tom Evans win it brilliantly a couple of weeks ago. So what's, what are your thoughts on utmb?

Yeah, I mean as I, as I mentioned, I think that the sport has has really kind of progressed and, and move forward. And I mean as I say, I've never had a great race at, at utmb and it's definitely like the one race I feel like I haven't been able to to get right or kind of get close to getting getting right. But I mean to be honest, I kind of feel like I've missed my opportunity. There were a Few years where I kept going back to utmb and it was almost like I was going back there because I felt like it was the thing to do, like I had to get the monkey off my back, but it wasn't actually what I wanted to do. And earlier. And so, yeah, I DNF didn't finish UTMB last year and it was quite like. I thought maybe that was like the end of my, my racing career in terms of. I just. Things felt like really stagnant. I wasn't enjoying the training and yeah, it really kind of made me relook things and this year decided to enter a 200 miler or was actually a 250 miler, the Cocodona 250 miler in the U.S. the training was really tough for it. The race in itself was quite extreme, but for me, just having a completely new goal, something fresh that really excited me and I felt like I was doing Cocodona because I wanted to do a. It felt like lining up at the Gobi Desert Race again for the first time. And I think for me that is so important to actually do what, what makes you happy. So, I mean, going back to utmb, never say never, but I mean, yeah, currently, yeah, I mean I was, I was there this year, saw Tom's incredible run, really happy for him. But I mean, being on the sidelines, I was pacing, I mean, or craving for a fellow Salomon athlete, Lucy Bartholomew. And to be honest, I didn't have like a lot of FOMO about lining up at the, at the start line. Yeah, I mean, I feel like I've had my experiences there. Like I said, probably not, not good, but I, I don't think any, like, I mean, I think as, as an athlete, as a human, you need to go through those highs and lows. And I always say it's those low patches that have actually shaped me in, in life. And I mean, possibly going back to Western states, if I hadn't had those low, low moments, I probably wouldn't have found the passion and the energy to, to go back and, and to win it. Yeah, at the time it really sucks when you kind of going through a bad patch, but I think that's where I found I've really kind of grown as, as a human and as a person and it's kind of forced me to like, evolve. So yeah, I think it's important where I am now, having been in, in the Sport for like 18 years, just to keep finding new things and to keep, keep evolving and growing and doing the things that Excite me.

That excitement when you're running that distance and that adventure is just so important, isn't it? To not love it or want it at that point is. Yeah, is extremely important. So it's really interesting to hear you talk about utmb. We're going to come back to some of those bigger races actually. But you know, we often hear and with professional athletes, you hear the whole time about their, you know, their big races, their big wins. But in your journey, in your career as a professional athlete, what are some of the maybe smaller wins that maybe actually made a huge impact on, you know, how you approach races now? Or maybe it's some of the lows actually that you've had along the way that have been, you know, had this major impact.

Yeah, I mean, I think it was when I was writing my, my first book. I thought that like, kind of when I was kind of running through kind of the races I'd done, I thought it'd be those big race wins that would, would stand out. And to be, and to be honest, I think still my favorite race to, to date was doing a canine search and and rescue race with my dog. I mean, I got. Got the photo of us at the finish line and just you could see we both had. Had smiles on our faces. I mean, for me I've realized it's, it's those smaller moments or sometimes kind of having a setback and doing a community run for, for a, for a partner and running with, with people that don't necessarily get to run in the mountains every day on, on the trails every day. And everyone's so excited and eager and it just makes you realize that that like kind of. Yeah kind of what I have and not to take it for, for granted. So often I feel like that is, is really kind of motivates me and kind of fuels me even in, in South Africa I've done some, some work with foundations and there's a foundation called Live to. To Run and you're working with. With some of the kids there. It's just so inspiring just to hear their backgrounds. I've just, just having such a rough upbringing and to spending time with them and it just makes you realize like how privileged we are and not to. To take the small things in life for, for granted. So I mean, I think it's more those, those kind of human interactions that really stand out for me. Essentially ran a race in Madagascar and just interacting with some of the local people there. I mean Madagascar Madagascar must be one of the poorest countries I've been to. I mean the people have absolutely nothing but some of the happiest people I've ever met. And I remember like being in Madagascar, people just being so happy and having nothing but they had like a really close like family and that was enough for them. And then I remember flying back to Cape Town via South Africa, via Johannesburg which is a big big city in, in South Africa and spending the the night there. But just driving along the freeways, everyone's getting road rage. Everyone's in there like fancy four by fours but, but like no one's, no one's happy or content. They're just grumpy and kind of just kind of going going with it. I think for, for me that was so important. Another thing that springs to to mind was when a good friend of mine, Reyno and I we ran across the the Himalayas ran a section of of the Great Himalaya Trail. And that, that, that experience for, for me because we were up in the high mountains, we were very aligned on the local Nepali people to, to give us food and shelter. I mean they were just incredible. There were times when we would knock on the doors of like a random house in in the mountains at like 2, 3 in the morning and they kind of would always open their doors, they would invite us in, let us sleep in their beds, give us food. Just. Yeah, just the like the kindness of those, those people. Just how far a small gesture of, of kindness goes. Yeah, I mean, yeah, I think for me like if I look back on my career it's more those, those moments of being able to to travel around the world, interact with different people that have kind of really shaped me and, and kind of what's, what's been important to me. I guess that the racing and the doing projects has just been kind of the excuse to have those interactions and, and experiences.

I mean we could probably talk forever about the stories of like, you know, going to different people's houses and knocking on doors at and yeah, the interaction with the local people. Is there a particular moment in time, whether that's in a race or not in a race that really taught you a lesson and shaped you as the athlete you are today?

Yeah, I think it's probably, if I say it's probably like the lope moments in my career. I mean I can think back to end of 2014, early 2015 when I had glandular fever and I mean again I thought maybe that was the end of my running career. At that time there are a lot of athletes getting over training syndrome and glandular fever. Was I guess essentially the start of that. And I mean, again, I stopped enjoying running and was really trying to force things and it was only when I actually took a complete step back and stopped setting goals for myself like running goals and just run started running again for the enjoyment that I actually started to enjoy it again. And I found as soon as I started enjoying something, then physically my performances are a lot better. And I mean, even in range. Know, my friend and I, we did a run around the country of, of Lesotho, which is a kind of landlocked country within, in South Africa, really mountainous and the conditions were really brutal. But anyway, I came out of that with a stress fracture in, in my sacrum and, and again, I thought that was the, the end of my running career. And again, just that like, complete setback and having to completely start again start from. I mean, I remember doing the first hike in the mountains again for the first time, just hiking and being completely out of breath and my calves cramping and I was like, how am I ever going to get to where, like where I was? So just like really building up from, from scratch. I think those are the like, moments I really think about and, and would kind of take those moments kind of moving forward in my career, just like realizing that I guess in life you've got to kind of keep evolving and moving with the times. And I guess in life and in business, like, like, yeah, the world is such a fast place or it's just you're moving at such a fast pace that like, I mean, things change. You have to adapt. If you, if you can't adapt and, and evolve, then I mean, you're not gonna, you're not gonna survive the pace of, of the modern world. So I mean, I think that's, that's been like a really important lesson for, for me.

You mentioned there the, the running around Lesotho, which I, I was fascinated when I listened to this. What I envision. I mean, I know South Africa pretty well, but I didn't envisage that being as difficult from a terrain and a climate point of view as you described. So I'd love you to tell the story of, of that, but I'd also like you to share you. I'm going to describe it the welcome committee that you got early on, which put the whole thing in jeopardy in your mind, didn't it? But it also, I think it left quite a lasting impact on you. That Wellcome committee so kind of tell the story of, of what that was all about, what it was like. And you Know, what did you learn from the welcome committee?

Yeah, so I guess, yeah, the Lesotho Project. So I mean I actually attempted another project the previous year with Red Bull idea of running the length of of the Skeleton coast in Namibia. And unfortunately I ran into some seal clubbing happening halfway through the the project. And things escalated really quickly. Basically I was in. In the kind of wrong place at the wrong time to to but really quickly found that I was kind of arrested or detained. And yeah, kind of that was the end of the project. But I mean it was quite a kind of scary situation but nevertheless managed to get out of that. And then it was kind of a good friend of mine said what about running around Lesotho? And I thought how hard can it be? Like look at it on a map. It looked like this small little country. It was only a thousand 100 kilometers and, and essentially would just be kind of hugging the border all the way around Lesotho. And so that's how the idea started. Spoke to Reyno, he's. He's kind of got a, got a rubber arm and he was pretty quickly keen to join. And I mean that, that was essentially how it started. We did a couple of recce and then really quickly realized that the terrain up there was brutal. And also essentially we weren't following hiking routes that would take like the route of least resistance. We were just following the circumference. So we were going against the valley. So I mean instead of often hiking route would take you down into the valley and we were going against like the valleys and the peaks. So it was up, down, up, down. There were no, no trails during some of the recce we encountered. They've got the local herdsmen on top, but they also had these packs of dogs that were. Were quite hectic early on. I have discovered that it was going to be a, yeah, quite a quite a hectic project. And it was actually through that that I, I spoke to Red Bull and I said just I'm feeling really uncomfortable from a safety point of view but like, and it safer would be would be to. For like there were a few select sections that we could potentially have guys on on horseback join us. Just from a safety point of view they could go ahead could speak the, the local language. So Red Bull agreed to that and I felt a lot better about the project. We started the, the project, Reyno and I, and it was the, the second night that we'd actually just picked up the two guys on on horseback and we were going along. Rayna and I could run through the night. Quite easy. Horses couldn't couldn't go at night. So we, we stopped and we, we found like somewhere to, to camp for the night. And it was next to like a kraal, which is basically where some of the herdsmen would, would keep their sheep. And we started setting up, but we were looking around, we couldn't see and we were waiting and waiting, but then it started to, to rain and it got really dark and, and cold. So we just set up our tents. Anyways, we set up tents, got inside, and we were just like going off to sleep. And the next minute I just remember hearing this like scream, rocks being thrown. Like, I remember just like opening my eyes and seeing this like, rock pierce my tent. I mean. Oh, it didn't. Luckily it didn't pierce straight through the tent, but like the whole intent, like just indented rainer was lying next to me kind of screamed. We ran out the, the tent and the two guys on, on horseback, they, their tents were one up from us and they, they got out and they were like, basically they're just screaming and shouting and rocks being, being thrown black sticks and, and yeah, it was just complete chaos.

Us.

And yeah, the two, two guys on horseback were literally fighting for their lives. Luckily they could speak the local language. So eventually things calmed down and it was the, the two herdsmen in that area, they had seen us coming and they had thought that we were coming to steal their sheep. So they had kind of called a whole lot of friends in, in the nearby valley. So there were suddenly like nine, nine guys. So these sheep. And yeah, luckily with having got that speak the local local language, things calmed down and the guys were really apologetic. Like two of the guys were, were crying him and yeah, I mean, kind of, yeah, things things. Calm Calm down. Can't say I slept much that, that, that evening. And I mean, in, in my head I was just like, okay, like, this is the end of, of of the project. I've got a young son, Brandon. I'd already run across the Himalayas, which was pretty sketchy. As I mentioned, I had this bad situation along the Skeleton coast and I thought like, this was it. I promised my wife that if like anything sketchy happened, that was the end of the project. I mean, that, that night, or kind of just lying there tossing and turning through the night, I was like, cool, this is the end of the project. And we woke up the next morning and we kind of took our tents down and we're heading out. There was one of the local herdsmen was like super apologetic and offered to kind of navigate and to show us a way to get out of there. And they would like started chatting a bit, a bit more. He explained it in terms of that basically the chiefs that live at the bottom of the, the mountain, they pay the, the local herdsmen, they would give them one sheep a month if none of the sheep got stolen or injured over the space of a month. But basically because it's a high cattle theft area, it had been like nine or 10 months since they had actually been paid. So essentially they weren't being paid their salary. So they all kind of, yeah, being paid. So they were super on edge but obviously reacted in a very like harsh way. You could see they were, they were really sorry. And for me it was probably didn't think it as much at the time but it was a real like eye opening situation for me just to like realize that I mean especially in South Africa we come from such diverse backgrounds and such different backgrounds that it's so important to just listen and understand and like where the other person is coming from and just to have empathy. And for me that was a real, yeah, kind of eye opening situation just to have empathy and realize for sure the situation wasn't ideal. The guys could have just come and spoken to us but kind of they come from such a different background where life can be so harsh. So yeah, I mean that was a real eye opener for me. But anyway, going back to the project, literally I'd say that that morning I said to Robert Rainer, like kind of done with this project, I just want to, want to get out of there. And we were going and we had about 50 or 60ks to get to where we could resupply and where we would see crew because they had had heavy rains. When we got about 10km out we got in radio comms and our crew had told us that the rivers were all flooded, they couldn't get us. So then that meant that instead of seeing our crew and like in the 10km time was going to be like over 100km essentially there for another kind of 36 hours or so. And it was in that space that I realized like geez, I'm so far in this, this now. I had time to process the situation that I decided to, to keep going on the project. But I mean it was a, it was a crazy way to, to start the project. And I mean the rest of the project was, was brutal just in terms of the weather conditions that the terrain, it was by far the hardest thing I'd done. And I mean I'm really grateful that Reyna and I had done the. The great Malaya Trail, that before doing the Lesotho project, because we actually felt. We took a lot of lessons into the Lesotho project in terms of. I felt when you're doing the Himalayas, we were very, like, set in our ways. We were very specific. We didn't kind of adapt and evolve enough through the project. Like, I remember at the start of the Himalayas project, there was really extreme weather conditions, and we were just like, no, we plan to start at 4am on the 1st of March, so we're going to start no matter what. Whereas in the Sutu, you really had to. To, like, adapt. And even, I think it was day seven or eight, I made the decision to. For Rain and I to. To backtrack off the mountain just because the weather conditions were too extreme. And it's. It's always that. That feeling of like, I mean, backtracking off the mountain. I didn't know. I didn't know if that was the end of the project, if we were going to be able to kind of get back up there again and complete the project. But, I mean, in hindsight, I think it was a really good decision. But, yeah, I mean, just essentially, it was beyond really extreme project, just from weather. Weather conditions, probably. I mean, weather conditions and terrain. But it's a project I'm probably most proud about because I feel that it was Raina and I that did the circumnavigation of Lesotho, but we had a really big team behind us, and I feel like it was a really big team effort and. And we really like it. It was cool just to kind of find the best possible team for them to really all kind of go above and beyond to make this project possible. So, I mean, I think that's. Without going off on a tangent. I think for me, trail running has never been about, like, running a set time or kind of about winning a specific race. It's always been about the adventure and the unknown and evolving as a person. And I mean, as I said, I feel like for sure The Himalayas was 1600 kilometers and we were going over peaks at over 5500 meters, whereas Lesotho was a. Only a thousand one hundred kilometers and kind of the highest elevation was like 3400 kilometers. But I think that the conditions were so much more challenging. And also we had to really kind of build a strong team around us. So I feel it's really kind of, yeah, kind of made both Rain and. And I kind of adapt and just. Yeah, I mean, come out of it feeling like we had grown as, as humans.

You certainly got the adventures from what you were saying. The adventure is definitely there in those stories. So you were talking about, you know, the importance of good team moving to the Cocodona 250 which was 61 hours self supported. How do you take what you've learned in these lessons of more of the adventure style trail projects into a race like this? And secondly I'm really interested to know about the fueling side of things. How does that work for 61 hours being self sufficient?

Yeah, so Cocodona. So we did actually so we had eight stations along the way. So at least didn't like catching have to carry everything. I mean again Cocodone was again like an incredible experience and I think for me the biggest take out of it again was the. Was the team again having. Having Reyno there to crew me. I've done a lot of projects and adventures with some of my Salomon teammates like Lucy, Bartholomew and Christian who I'd spent a lot of time with over the years. Having them out there to, to pace me. A lot of the, the Salomon International team was out there, some of the developers and designers. So it was also really cool to share the experience with them. So for me that was probably, I didn't realize it before I entered the race. That was probably the biggest take out from the race, just that collective experience. I mean I guess essentially I'm the person that was running for 61 hours but just to be surrounded by that team just. I mean it wouldn't have been possible without them. And I think for me I really went to a place that I've never been before. Kind of from a mental point of view. And as you mentioned I've done like a lot of adventures and multi day adventures and then also a lot of races. So I felt this was like the perfect blend of the two where essentially I mean it is a long adventure but at the same time you're also in a race. So I guess the best way to describe it it's a bit like an adventure but just with a more intense feeling like you constantly racing. So I mean that was really interesting interesting for me and just the, the planning and preparation. I mean I felt I made a lot of mistakes in, in the race in terms of. I really battled with, with sleep. I planned to sleep like just kind of take some trail naps on, on the side of the trail for like 10 maximum 10 minutes. I found that's always worked really good well for me during the, the projects and adventures I'd done. But unfortunately we had really bad weather conditions, so that wasn't possible. So the few times I did try sleep, I couldn't sleep. I actually only ended up sleeping during the. For like, I think it was like seven minutes on the third morning. But by then, during the. The first night was okay, but that second night I was hallucinating. Remember, like running through the foresty section and all the trees started like looking like, like people. I saw some deer that actually looked like lions. They were actually. They looked like African lions. It wasn't even like the, the American like mountain lion. So it's, it's a weird feeling that you like seeing. You're like having these hallucinations but you, you know, it's not, not, not real, but you can still see them. Like even I would see like the one time there was a big tree trunk and I thought it was someone hanging from a, from a tree. And I kept telling myself like it's not real, like snap out of it. But you can see it until you get, get closer or till you get, you know, like about 10 meters away. So I mean that was, that was quite weird. And then also just in terms of just it was weird. Like I also at times started especially that second night, there was a big section we actually had to do on our own. We couldn't have a PACER with us. So like a PACER is a lot of the American race have it where for certain sections of a race you can have someone running with you. They're not allowed to carry any of your stuff. But it's just purely from a safety point of view to, to have a second person or to keep you company. So I mean, a few times out there, when I was out there on my own that second night, I was really starting to freak out. Like was this like my body shutting down and you like so tired. You just don't know if you, if you're coming or going. So that would, that was really challenging. And then from a nutrition point of view, yeah, so I, I used it like a combination of like whole foods. But like when I say whole foods, really easy stuff to, to get down. Like smashed potato and rice and a lot of bone broths and then a lot of the sports, sports nutrition, like the, the general kind of like precision hydration and scratch labs and then a lot of stuff like, like Red Bull and caffeine during the night to, to stay awake awake. So it was quite a mixture. But I mean in, in hindsight I think it was like after about 30 hours. I was so sick of of that. So I mean if, if I did another 200 milo or I guess when I do another 200 miler, I'll definitely try and have more variety in, in my, my food. And again it's quite difficult, but I just feel like the more tools you can bring, the more tools you can have in your, your toolbox for, for a kind of 200 mile miller, the better. And I mean I think that's where kind of experience really comes into play. But yeah, I mean just the experience of, of running Cocodona was, was really cool. I think. I think for me my, why was just like a really strong. During the race and I was, I mean I went through some really dark patches but I mean I was quite, I was. Yeah. I mean I, I kind of really felt like there was, there was never a time where I thought that I was going to quit or I was going to stop. Even when my legs like swelled up or got borderline hypothermia. I mean for me, yeah, I was just like in a, in a really good headspace and I feel a lot of that comes from just I was doing, I was doing the race because I really wanted to do it. It wasn't because I, I felt like I should do it. Always the thing to, to do.

I've got my first 100 miler coming up and I'm listening to you talking about the 250 and I, I'm thinking this. Yeah, I have no idea what I've bitten off but what you describe worries me. But also I find it unbelievable.

I think on that, I mean, I guess it's all relative. Like a lot of people say like, like I, I can only run 5ks. I can't fathom how you run 100k as 100 miles and for me it's just breaking it down into, into bite sized chunks. And I mean even a Cocodona for me that's why having a support crew out there was so important. I literally, I never thought of about the finish line. It was literally just getting to the next aid station and seeing my crew and just that was like the race within the, in the race and then after that focusing on the next race and I mean even when times were really difficult, I remember some of those night stretches where I was so tired and I felt like I was moving backwards. I literally just focused on kind of getting to the next tree and then to the next tree and then the next kind of marker. So I mean I feel with 100, 100 miles. Just break it down into, into four marathons and before you know, you'll be at the finish line.

Brilliant. That sounds like amazing advice. I will remember you when I. When I'm battling towards the next tree. Now, on this podcast, we always ask for book recommendations. Now you've already written, you've written two of your own books, which is amazing. What books have you found influencing you on your journey? I know you, or if not books, something else. But I know you mentioned Dean Canassis right at the start and maybe the, that is the book that influenced you, but what do you, what do you find yourself reflecting black on as a, as a, as something that helped you on your journey?

Yeah, I guess. I think my mom has always honored, honored me from my teenage years that I need to read more books. So that's probably something. I haven't read enough books. But I mean, in my early days I remember like, yeah, kind of reading Dean Carnazes book even. I guess it's probably slightly controversial, but reading Lance Armstrong's books just, yeah, I mean I found it just super, super in inspiring. So yeah, for me it's just really the kind of like reading those human element stories of kind of people that kind of really just go out there and push their limits. But I mean, I guess currently I actually listen to a lot of podcasts. Like, I mean, probably a podcast I listen to a lot now is Second nature. Actually a friend, a good friend of mine, Dylan Bauman started it and I mean, I find it really interesting. Just the business of trail running and sport. I mean, I think for me the big dream is just like, how can I keep doing what I'm doing forever and how can I keep evolving? And I mean, I know I'm not going to be competitive forever, but is there a way I can still stay in the sport and still chase my dream? I mean again, a podcast like Second Nature, I find just super inspiring. Like the business of sport and just being able to think outside the box and keep, keep, keep evolving. I mean, even going off on a tangent there a couple of my, my Red Bull teammates and it's been really cool to see how, how their careers have, have progressed and also just how they've, they've continuously evolved and they like, are still able to do what they love. And I mean that's why like, like a brand like, like Red Bull, I've called them a dream giver. I mean, I've pitched so many crazy ideas and projects to, to them and they never say like, no ways you've Lost your mind they and support you. So I mean that's been also like really cool because unfortunately I can't, I can't race forever. I am getting older, but I mean I think there are ways to, to keep evolving and, and stay in, in the sport. And I mean also having said that again with, with, with Rain, we started a sports management companies. Yeah. I'm also, also keen to, to give back. I think I'd like to think I've learned quite a lot from the, the years I, I'm really passionate about sport and being able to give back and continuously kind of grow. The sport is important to me and also just, I guess living in South Africa, I mentioned it earlier, I mean, I think that's one reason why maybe I've kind of kept doing what I've done for so long apart from kind of just absolutely loving what I do. But I mean, I just feel that in South Africa we come from such varied backgrounds and I'm kind of lucky that, that I've come from a really fortunate background. But I mean, I think on a daily basis you're surrounded by people that haven't come from such fortunate backgrounds and have come from really rough backgrounds and you just hear their stories and you're so inspired to kind of keep going. I mean, I think back to live to run the foundation that I've mentored some of their runners and Sinovuyu who I've become good friends with. I was out with him and we're doing some training and I just come back from utmb. I dropped out. I thought it was the end of the world. And then he started telling me some of his stories and I mean that his, his mom passed away when he was like five years old. He didn't know his dad. He didn't actually even exist at school. He did really well at, at cross country. But then eventually he had to stop because when he made the, the regional team, they wanted proof of his identification to make sure he was in the right age group. And he actually didn't, he didn't have idea. So eventually, I mean that he had to sort that out, but that took a number of, of years. And then again spending some time with him and going to visit his, his home. I mean he kind of would walk for five or six kilometers just to, just to get water. So yeah, I mean just kind of hearing some of the hardships, I mean it's just really inspired me kind of to, to keep doing what I, what I'm doing and just, just to, to realize that I mean, running is just, it's just running. There's so much, much more, more out there. I mean, having said that, I'm really kind of passionate to, to, to give back because I feel running has given me so much.

Oh, you're absolutely right. It's the stories behind it that's, that's so meaningful, isn't it? And it's when you find out more about those stories. We've talked about it a lot on the podcast, but it's those stories that make it powerful. Whether it's, you know, fire books, whether it's via podcasts, whether it's just, you know, chatting to people out on the trails or in, in, in connections, that is getting to know those stories. That is so powerful both in sport and in business. Actually. It really, it really is. And then we have a closing tradition on this podcast where we get the last guest to ask the next guest a question without knowing who that, who that person is going to be. And the last guest was Ruth Daniels, who is the CEO of British Triathlon. And I think Ruth's question is going to be really interesting for you. So Claire has got Ruth's question lined up.

So there's a lot of noise about private equity investment in sport. How would this impact the evolution of sports? And will there be a bigger division between the haves and the have nots? And if they don't make their returns, what might then happen?

Geez. Interesting question or a hard question. For the final question, I'll try to answer the question. But I guess my take on something that's quite relevant maybe in trail running currently, I mean with talking about utmb, they partnered with, with Ironman and there's been a lot of, of kickback and I mean as I said, I've been in the sport for 18 years. I've really seen it progress and, and, and grow and I feel there is space for, for everyone. I think the beauty about trail running and sport, I mean like a lot of people moan about the price of entering a trail race or the barriers to entry, but essentially running in, in the mountains is free. You don't have to run a race. You can join a running club, a running community and you can get out there and have just the same experience. I mean I've got a lot of friends that go out and trail run or run, but they don't have any desire to do a race where the other people, I know that their goal and their ambition, their kind of 10 year dream is to, to run UTMB or to, to run Western States and obviously then the barrier to entry does become bigger. But I mean I feel that there's, there's room for everyone and I mean I also feel then with, with an investment in the, in, in, in the sport. I mean I do think it's good. I just feel it, it's really important for it to be managed in the right way and, and for people really to, to just still stick to the essence and the roots of that sport. I mean I feel if there's a big investment in the sport and then the sport because of that takes a completely different direction, then I don't feel that is, that is good. But I mean I, I feel if, if we can still hon honor kind of what the sport is about then I mean, I think it's a good thing and I mean for me people say like, do you think it's a good thing for Ironman to. To get involved in trail running? It's really commercialized thing and things and I think, I think it's great. I mean I really feel like it's, it's kind of getting the sport out to a wider audience, getting more people involved in the sport, but I just feel it's needs to be managed in, in the right way. And I mean I do feel utmb/ironman have made a number of mistakes along the way, but I also feel like they've been quite honest and open and have kind of put their hand up and said for sure we haven't done this right? And I mean I appreciate that we all, we're all going to make, make mistakes along the way. So. Yeah, I don't know if I've kind of answered the question, but I do feel like, I mean, I think it is a good, good thing for, for sport.

You're right. I mean I had a feeling that that was where you were going to take that question. When I saw it, I was like that's going to end up with UTMB and Iron man surely. And as, as the 100 miler that I'm doing next year is the Arc of Attrition, which has then also been bought by UTMB. So and Claire and I both did the 50 miler before it was bought by UTMB, it'll be interesting to see how that's changed under the banner of UTMB and obviously UTMB being owned by Ironman. So I figured that that would be where you would go and I think, I think my instinct is that you're right in that there's, there's an opportunity to make it even Better and be. But, but equally it's got authentic and there's lots of cheaper ways of doing ultra running, isn't there? So there's kind of. It's good to have a pinnacle, but there's. Then it needs to, it needs to say authentic, but yeah, no, fascinating. And I think you kind of share a really valid point on, you know, there being a pinnacle but also kind of level, multi levels to it. Ryan, it's been absolutely brilliant chatted to you. I think your story is incredible. I think, you know, how you got into the sport and rose to success so quickly is phenomenal. And now sort of doing like, I think the conversation particularly around loving doing what you're doing, going away from the fixed goals and doing what you want to do for fun, I think is, is really a really powerful lesson. So a huge thank you for, for coming on the podcast and we look forward to following what comes next.

Thanks so much. It was really awesome chatting and hopefully chat soon again.

So what did you make of the interview with Ryan?

I think we could probably listen to him for a year to listen to all his stories. There's just so many, many, I guess from, from the outset, like, you know, having a couple of weeks that, to do a marathon to then going and winning, you know, a massive desert race, I think is unreal, isn't it?

It's insane, isn't it? I mean his time, his first time of a marathon just blew me away when I heard that I was like, wow, for three weeks training. That is incredible. But then, yes, like you say, go on to win it. And I think, I think he's amazing how actually the more you spoke to him and particularly when we were speaking into, in, in the. After we stopped recording, he said, well, actually, you know what, it's like he's created this thing which we didn't get a chance to talk about. He's created this thing in South Africa called thirteen Peaks. It's a bit like an FKT type thing. You just got to go and, and ascend the 13 peaks around Cape Town. And he said that's more of my legacy than any results at Western states or in the desert. It's people kind of thinking of me as the guy that created 13 peaks, not the guy who won Western States and the four desert ultras. That's kind of where it ended up coming back to. That's what I thought was really interesting was his legacy is not. And what really kind of motivates him and not the medals, but the experiences and the, and the People, I think.

Yeah. And actually that's where he started as well. The start of that conversation was about, you know, making the best or being the best person, being the best of making the best of yourself. You know, it's not about beating somebody else, which is a really interesting take when on. Like, he talks a lot about adventure, but not really about racing, which is really interesting, isn't it, to kind of interview somebody on the. Kind of. He happens to be really great, really fast, but actually it's about the adventure, which is. Which is amazing. I thought it was really interesting to listen to him talking about when you kind of just lose the love for something as well. That was when you asked the question about utmb. What did you think about that in terms of just not having the passion, I guess, for it?

Well, I think you're right. I could really resonate with it. And it's something we've sort of mentioned a few times on the podcast. But when it purely comes down to. To when it starts coming down to times and, like, the fun drains out of it, it's really difficult to get motivated to do a sport that is incredibly tough. You know, it is an incredibly tough sport, and certainly Ironman is not as tough as running utmb, or at least I don't think it is. But I found it exactly like that, you know, like, when it starts coming. Getting down to just like, can I go faster than that time? And can I. I be. Be that Pete. Get that, people. It was exciting, but it became less fun. It became much more stressful because the smallest thing can happen that's outside of your control and suddenly the whole plan falls to bits. Whereas when it's about the adventure, it's. It's way better. I mean, like, I. So I. As you know, I did my Lake Windermere swim last weekend. I'm not sure I would describe it as fun, but it was something that I wasn't sure whether I could complete or not. And I was really kind of with how it went. I won't be rushing back to do it again, but it was definitely an adventure and it was definitely pushing through the comfort zone. And that, to me is way more exciting than, you know, would I go back and try and beat my time at Lake Windermere? Absolutely. Definitely not. But, you know, and so I thought the way he said, I just stopped setting goals or ignored the goals I'd set and just started training for fun at running, for fun, fun again. That I think is a really good lesson to learn for, you know, just doing what you do for fun.

And I think actually the, you know, he talked a lot about, you know, the people that he met along the way and actually the relationships with different communities and, you know, their experiences and. And actually having time out from the sport. So when. When he had glandular fever, he didn't talk about loads, but he talked about coming back from that and actually having that time out and coming back in is having that passion again, isn't it? And that. That desire, that adventure. And actually, we've just thinking about who. Who we've been speaking to recently. You know, people that are doing big adventures have this kind of sometimes just not a desire to do anything just yet. You know, when we ask them what their big plans are and they go, well, there's not anything just yet because. So it's really interesting to hear people doing these very long events. Events, and it makes me wonder what that is also about in terms of, you know, psychologically, not just physically. This must take a lot out of people to do these kind of adventures when he talks about his projects.

Yeah, but what you just said there reminds me of the previous episode with Sean Conway, because he was saying the same thing, wasn't he? He's kind of like, the terrier is now tired for a while and I don't need something to wear the tearing terrier out, but it's what happens. And the reason I did the Lake Windermere swim wasn't because I particularly wanted to do the Lake Windermere swim, but once I got this concept of, you know, I was going to do lands into John O. Groats as the longest bike ride I could do, and do arc of attrition, which is the longest run I could think of that was, you know, could think of that was vaguely achievable. Then it. Well, as soon as I got in my head that, well, if I do a longest swim, I've now got my version of the long. The longest triathlon like it. That sort of created excitement as a whole. And. And I think it takes time to come up with these ideas that excite you in your mind. And once you've got them, then it's like, right now I can. Now I can go off and get kind of detailed on it and do the training and get excited about it. And so I suppose that's the one of the lessons that I've taken from this is.

Is.

It's how do you. You kind of gestate and formulate what that is? Because only that once you've got that and you Go right now. That whole thing excites me. Now I'm going to do that. So. Yeah, and I think he certainly added a few races to our bucket list as well, isn't he?

Yeah. I mean, even just doing a bit of research on him, I was like, oh dear, this is there, there's a lot of races here. I mean, some that we obviously know of and others that were just, well, he calls them projects, but you know, the adventures. I mean, it's just. Yeah. Just amazing. You know, one of the great things that he, that he talked about was having the book. I forget his name.

Oh, yes, I can't remember the. Yes, I know who you mean.

I can't remember very well known. Australian runner? No, Australian. South African runner.

South African. South African. But yes, I can't remember his name.

But the fact it was written down, he looks through it and somebody's already kind of of said, you can do it. That's really, that's really lovely to be able to kind of hear it kind of written in a different way. It's not you saying like, this is my goal, this is what I'm going to do. It's actually somebody else saying, you can do it.

Yeah. I wonder, I wonder if anyone, if somebody had done that for him, for utmb. I wonder whether. Yeah. Well, we didn't speak about race visualization, but I've heard him talk about how important that is to him and he race and he. I've heard him admit that he could never visualize himself doing well at utmb, but he could visualize himself doing well at other races. And so, I mean, visualization is a really important thing anyway. But yeah, that's interesting, isn't it?

Yeah.

Yes, we should. Maybe another question. We'll have to ask him another time, I suppose, but. Right, there we go. Another fascinating episode with amazing stories, adventures and incredible results. And for everyone at home, keep on training.