From Ocean to Ironman: Finding Purpose Beyond Victory with Matt Trautman

Professional athletes do. You have lots of setbacks along the way. You have your ups and downs and just realizing that there's no down without up and no up without down. And you just gotta ride that wave and see your way through it to get to the other side of that.

In this episode of the Business of Endurance, we're joined by the incredible Matti Trautman, an athlete whose journey embodies the essence of resilience, reinvention and mental toughness. Competing as a whitewater rafter to becoming a world class triathlete, Matty's story is one of overcoming obstacles, including severe spinal injury, and finding the strength to not only recover, but to thrive. Matt opens up about his path to recovery after a life changing crash, his transition from professional athlete to coach, and how his background in kayaking and yacht racing shaped his approach to endurance sport. He shares invaluable lessons on building resilience, dealing with setbacks, and find purpose beyond the race course. If you're looking for insights on long term performance, mental fortitude, and how to tackle life's hardest moments with grit and grace, this conversation is definitely for you. So listen up and dive in to this brilliant episode about the journey of Matty Troutman. Do you know what? When we look at the back end of this podcast, then we see something really interesting. We see that 57% of the people that regularly listen to it haven't hit the subscribe button. So could I ask you a quick favor before we dive into today's episode? If you're enjoying Claire and I bringing you amazing guests, not asking you for patronage fees, and not jamming the podcast full of adverts, then the best way you can help us continue to do that and make it even better is to hit that subscribe button. And here's my promise to you. When you subscribe, we'll make it our mission, along with the team that supports us, to continue to improve this podcast every week. So thank you so much for your support and for being a part of the Business of Endurance community. Let's dive in. So, Matt, welcome to the Business of Endurance podcast. Really looking forward to chatting to you and sort of diving into all things Ironman, all things South Africa, and lots of other stuff. But I want to start with a topic we haven't talked about before is you started out as a competitive whitewater kayaker before you transitioned into triathlon. So can you take us back to those days? What does that look like? I didn't even know that was a thing. And so, I mean, I know what whitewater rafting is, but I didn't know that it was a competitive thing. So tell us a bit about that and also kind of maybe sort of segue into what did that teach you that later proved useful when you came to triathlon?

Yeah. Hi Charlie, thanks for having me on. Yeah, I mean the kayaking. Suppose it's that we have to go back to where I grew up which was in Petermaritzburg in South Africa. And I mean it's a very sports mad town. I guess there's a lot of big endurance events that happen there. There's the comrades marathon which is the biggest, the ultramarathon in the world, participant wise. And then you've got mid mile mile which is I think also if not the biggest, one of the biggest mass swim events. It's a mile in a dam there. And yeah, just that I mean growing up there obviously had a big influence on my career and who I, you know, turned out to be. And yeah, one of the sports that is popular there is canoeing and there's a race there, the Doozy Canoe marathon which is a three day event starting in Peter Maritzburg and going down to Durban. And my parents had both done it and were into it as I was, as I was growing up and I mean amongst other sports comrades as well. And yeah, I mean it's, it's a tough sport to do when you're younger. I mean I only got into it a bit later in life but yeah, I was playing I guess all the traditional sports in primary school growing up but paddling was always on the radar and as soon as I was, I was able to then, then got into that. Yeah, in high school I went to, I went to a boarding school there just outside of Peter Maritzburg and you had to do one term of team sports like it was cricket and then you could start, you could start paddling in the, in the fourth term and yeah, that was, I couldn't wait. And so I got into it then and yeah, just really enjoyed it. I think getting out, it was definitely a way to get out of the boarding school and get off the grounds on the weekends was a big attraction but for various reasons I guess that yeah, I was drawn to it and it's. Yeah, it definitely set me up in terms of being an endurance sport athlete later in life.

Do you think just sort of kind of diving deeper on that? Do you think it, you know, what, what specifically do you think about that sort of sort of youth stage, do you think then helped you later on when it came to Ironman in particular.

Like it is an endurance sport. I mean. Yeah, I did. I know the question started off with the whitewater kayaking, which I did do the. And the doozy is it's down a river. It's I guess what are flat water boats otherwise? So like in the Olympics you've got the kayaking events, there's our sprints From I think 200 meters to a kilometer on flag water. And it's in very similar boats except you go down rivers with them, which, yeah, I mean it's quite unique, I guess to South Africa. There are some other events around the world, but it's, you know, it's very popular. And in Peter Maritzburg in Durban. Yeah, I guess, I mean the training is. You got to train for it like you would. A triathlon teaches you the discipline of doing that. And I mean from a physical point of view, it definitely sets you up well for being active and fit and you building this big aerobic engine in your youth. And that no doubt helped with the triathlon.

It's interesting actually because we've often talked to people that whether they end up in triathlon or doing something else, that they start with swimming in their youth. Swimming in your youth seems to be a great way of. And it's described in the same way. It's a way of building the engine. It's understanding, sort of following a training program, it's having a tribe, building a tribe around you. And it sounds to me that that's actually delivered something very similar to what a lot of people that start in a swimming background probably got. Were you a swimmer as well as a youngster?

Yeah, 100%. I mean there's like, I think doing anything at that age and building a big, A good foundation, it can help. I mean swimming would have been, would have been more useful for triathlon in terms of the technical aspect of it and getting those neuromuscular patterns dialed in a bit better. In youth I did swim. Yeah. In junior school and like I mentioned, there was a midman mile which I did a few times. And yeah, it was, it was more just a school sport that you'd swim out, I don't know, like once or twice a week, I guess. And then. And be the guy as it was never something that I took too seriously, which yeah, like I said, would have been useful. But yeah, the paddling, it sounds like.

It did something different. It did something similar, the paddling for sure.

And I mean, you gotta. I mean, I played a lot of different sports and besides the paddling, there was cross country and that race, the doozy you got to and there's a lot of portage in with your boats, you've got to be very run fit and you're running with your boat quite long distances. So yeah, there was good crossover to triathlon for sure.

And so that kind of raises another question which is, so we talk a bit about this kind of opportunity for people to niche down early and particularly in triathlon. You know, with Ironman historically people didn't sort of start doing Ironmans until they were certainly in their 20s and sometimes not even until they were in their 30s. Whereas we're now seeing younger athletes switching to long course much sooner to then niching down much earlier. But you had range from doing all sorts of different things because you also spent some time on super yachts which I'm going to kind of touch on in a minute. But just before we do, what do you think the difference, you know, what do you think that range of doing different sports provided to you later on?

Yeah, I mean I'm a big believer in that. You don't need to specialize too soon in your youth. I mean the technical aspects of swimming, like definitely picking that up sooner rather than later. You see the importance of that especially in the short course, Olympic distance stuff. But even moving now into the longer course stuff, you got to have a good swim foundation. But yeah, outside of that I think you want to, you just like in terms of your youth, you just want to instill that passion of moving your body and being active and having fun and yeah, it's whatever you find enjoyable, it just sort of becomes a habit I guess and gets ingrained that this is a good way to live and a good way to spend your time.

Brilliant, brilliant. And just tell me a little bit about what you were doing with the, with the high performance yachts. You know, what did that look like? And what lessons from the sea helped you shape your approach to endurance land racing on land?

Yeah. So I got into sailing straight after school when I matriculated at 17. Yeah, I'd spent five years like I said in boarding school and I couldn't wait to just get out and explore the world a bit I guess. So yeah, I mean I started off just working on a diving in fishing boats in Mozambique and did that for a few months and then met a guy there who had an old around the world racing yacht in the, in the UK and he was looking for crew so went over to the UK and did some racing there on this, the it was like an old 80 foot boat. We had like 20. We'd sail with about 20 people on board and we sailed it across the Atlantic. And yeah, this sort of was always my plan to just take I guess a gap year and then go back and study something. But that gap year turned into the next 10 years or I mean up until recently I guess I was on. It was more like a 20 year gap year before I had to find a desk job. Yeah, I mean the, it didn't start off as a. I mean I wasn't racing straight away but. Yeah. What did it teach me? I mean sailing is a lot of it is about the preparation of, of your equipment. I mean having having your boat in good working order is, is very important. And I mean as a sport there, there are a lot of variables, a lot of things that are out of your control. I mean the weather, you can predict it to an extent but you do, there is an element of luck involved I guess. And I mean you're working together with other members, with other crew members to get the best, the best out of the boat. And yeah, it's lots of factors that go into it. And I eventually yeah from the Creed stuff, I then tried some single handed sailing and managed to get some funding together to do this race across the Atlantic called the Mini Transat which yeah, that was an experience on sailing single handed across the Atlantic and definitely some, some good lessons there and in perseverance and staying focused that, that I took over to triathlon. But I mean, yeah, triathlon was at the time obviously wasn't on the radar and I started as a professional triathlete. Well I started triathlon at 27 and so yeah, a late starter but like sailing's a. From a physical point of view it's like it's not like you're sitting behind a desk. Yeah, you're always on the move and there was some carryover there as well.

I love the fact that you've talked about a couple of things. I think triathletes definitely forget one, prepping your equipment. So the fact you were able to learn that early on I think is amazing on the yachts. And also this idea of these variables and things being out of control and I think a long race day, anything can happen, can't it? So what took you from the worlds of yachts to then coming into triathlon? Because you mentioned just there that you got into it a little bit later in life. What really brought you into the world of triathlon and then Ironman or did you start With Ironman because I know some athletes do.

Yeah, I mean I started, yeah straight into the longer course stuff. It's. I mean at the time we were, we were based. I was on a boat, working on a boat in Cowes on the Isle of Wight and it was actually in 2012 and the Olympics were on. The Brownlees obviously won that year in London and there's a lot of focus on triathlon and yeah, I literally saw that, thought it would be a fun thing to try. I mean I was still staying active. I was paddling and doing some running and I'd done a trail marathon in that year in 2012. And yeah, it just started as a fun challenge and yeah, there are lots of other options in the uk. A lot of races to choose from. So did I did a half distance race later in that year and yeah, I found that I was, that I really enjoyed it first of all and it was competitive and it's kind of snowballed from there quite quickly. That came back to South Africa in the, in the off season and race 70.3 here and then did Ironman, South Africa, it was in 2013 and qualified for Kona there and then yeah, it just, the momentum kept going and went to Kona and it did well there and then thought, okay, let's try and give this a go as, as a profession.

So you quite quickly got from kind of this idea of being, being in the UK over the Olympic year and thought actually triathlon looks a good go. And then how long did it take you then from there until going professional? Was it literally just a couple of years?

Yeah, I raced one year in the age group category in 2014. Raced as a professional now. It's my first professional victory. So yeah, that was a big turning point in my career. Sort of solidified that A I could make a living out of it and that I could be competitive, could go very quickly. I mean the sport, I wouldn't say it was as competitive as it is at the moment. I think if I had done the same, if I tried to take the same trajectory now, yeah, you probably wouldn't be winning races straight off the bat.

What do you mean by that? Do you mean the professional world of triathlon has got a lot more competitive? Like for what reason? More numbers of people coming in or numbers of races or lack of numbers of races. What's kind of driven that, do you think?

Yeah, I mean I think there's just. There's been more publicity for the sport with starters. There have been more athletes going more younger Athletes getting straight into the long course stuff. There's, there's more money I think with the, with the PTO and now with the Ironman and pro series, and there's just more incentive for, for people to do well and to get into the sport straight away instead of going through the, through the short course circuit first. And yeah, there's, I'm sure they're more, more professionals overall racing for whatever reason. Yeah, probably the, I mean, I don't know if they, if their driver's financial or what it is, but it's definitely a bigger professional sport these days.

We certainly saw like a massive sort of uplift in terms of age groupers and then age group is going, you know, going professional over the years. But it's interesting you talk about it being more competitive now, you know, since kind of post Covid. I wonder if people have sort of moved into different sports. But it seems to have had kind of a second, you know, kind of a second wind again. You had a crash in 2017 which was horrific and you came out of extremely strong. So tell us a little bit about what happened in, in 2017 after your trauma and spinal injury. So tell us a little bit about the accident, but also about what it took for you to be able to get through that, recover and actually come back even, even stronger.

Yeah, in 2017 I was driving on a Saturday morning. It was, yeah, last long ride before 70.3 South Africa in East London and yeah, going out towards Franschhoek here in the Cape. And yeah, I got hit, hit from behind by a car at high speed. I was riding in the, in the yellow like emergency lane and this car was in there for whatever reason and took me out. And the result of that was, yeah, crushed three crushed vertebra and that they then needed to operate on. Yeah, straight away it was, I mean it was quite close to the spinal cord and I was very lucky not to have any spinal cord damage. And yeah, some other, I mean that was the, that was the main, yeah, the main, the main injury which was, yeah, big one that. Yeah. So they had to do a spinal fusion between those three vertebra and. Yeah, was it. It was a long recovery.

What was the advice at the time? Were your sort of specialists telling you, yeah, you'll be back racing again in no time or was there very much contradictory advice to that?

No, I mean there was, it was the only, it was the only feasible option that the spinal fusion itself. There weren't many other alternatives. The ligaments between the vertebra had torn in there during the accident. So, yeah, I mean I got hit, landed on the bonnet and the windscreen and then supposedly as I was like flying through the air like that twisting motion then for the ligaments as well. And so, yeah, to stabilize the area, I had to put in the, put in the rods. The surgeon, no, he was, he was pretty straight up that I probably wouldn't race professionally again. He had done like spinal fusions on a few athletes, but mostly rugby players. I was in, had the operation in Stellenbosch. It's a big professional rugby community there and it's. Yeah, I mean rugby is obviously a different sport. You try Atlan, you're not going to try and scrum anyone unless it's a mass start, I guess in the world.

Yes, I say not, not on purpose, but.

But no, he wasn't too, he wasn't too positive that I'd, that I'd be able to, to race professionally again. And I guess that was some small motivation to try and prove him wrong and not the biggest one.

But what were your motivations? Because to be told obviously to have been a competitive professional triathlete and then have this accident be told that, I guess that was maybe a step up, you know, actually be told that there is hope that you could have this, this, this operation. But what was going through your mind? Because you mentioned there about, you know, actually, well, I'm going to prove everybody wrong. I'm going to get back to it. Were you kind of going backwards and forwards from I'm going to prove everyone wrong to kind of what's, you know, what's going to happen?

Yeah, for sure. I think, I mean, I think initially I was like, okay, just you have to do what you have to do. It was like, I don't think, obviously didn't know at the time what the long term prognosis was going to be. Yeah, it was like initially you just got to, I mean like you say, you know, a little bit concussed and don't think you're thinking that straight. You just got to sort of just survival mode in the initial phases. And then no, I mean, I like it wasn't my initial thoughts. It. To try and race professionally again was like I definitely explored my options. I was, I mean, I remember like looking for jobs back in the sailing industry and. But I mean the, like I had to stay put for, for the recovery for the initial, I mean, at least a few months, I guess as it, as occlusion settled and the, the bones started to, to grow back and then Yeah, I mean I think one of my, one of my traits is that once I do set a goal and very single minded and focused on trying to see that through and my first goal I think was just to be able to run again. I was like, if I can just run again and then I'll be happy. And it would have been, you know, I can live like a normal life and as far as I'd always lived my life, I guess. And yeah, once you start seeing like the small improvements, it is motivation on its own and yeah, it is always like it's even when you, you know, not injured, seeing the progress and trying to improve is, is what drives you. And yeah, there was definitely that to just to try and get a little bit better each day and see, you know, where I ended up. And it took about six months before I ran again. I just built up slowly. It was, yeah, there's no rush in that process as the, as the body tries to heal. And then yeah, I kept seeing progress and then like, I think it was probably only after about seven, eight months that I thought, okay, I could actually I might be able to race again.

Did your training change? You know, did, did being hit by a car on the, on the bike have a psychological impact that meant you trained more inside or, you know, how did, how did that all play out?

Yeah, well, I mean my wife Nicole wasn't cheating me out on the road at all, that's for sure. Well, those first few months it was all yeah on the indoor trainer and no, I mean just in terms of that from the physical standpoint it was much better without having any jarring on the back. And yeah, I mean with the run in I started off on the ltg, the antigravity treadmill and then on the treadmill and I mean the run in was the, was the hardest discipline to get back because you put in so much load through your back when you're running and without the discs in between the vertebra anymore, there's a lot more load going into your lower back and, and about that. So yeah, getting the muscles strong enough took some time. But yeah, in terms of getting back on the road, it was, it took a while and then Nicole ended up following me in the car for, for the first, it was probably first few months of any riding that I did on the road. Yeah, it's like, I don't think I was ever like, I don't think it ever made me more nervous. I mean definitely more aware of the, of the risks. And yeah, best thing I did was Put a red light on the back of my bike. That might have made a difference in hindsight.

How do you think that crash and we'll come to the one that's more recent as well, but how do you think that that first trauma kind of changed? I guess your. If it did, your mindset or your approach to training. And what I mean by that is, you know, were you, you were talking there a lot about actually your body takes time to recover and we see so many athletes, whether they're triathletes or in a different field actually doing loads of training and not taking enough time to recover. So did it change your approach? I know that some of it you had to, but did it change your approach then and now in terms of training, recovery, load, mindset? It's a big question. I know.

Yeah, I mean, definitely initially, I mean that, like, I had to adapt the training to just be able to cope physically. And then, yeah, I mean, I did try and, and then get back into, into normal, I guess normal training and training like the way, the way I used to. Yeah. So I got hit by the car. It was in January. And then I did, I did 70.3 Bahrain and like November, December that year and, and that all went fine, like relatively pain free. And then I thought, okay, let's ramp it up some more. And in training for 70.3 South Africa again, which, like, yeah, it then ended up becoming like a big thing in my mind to, okay, this is a year post accident and this would be like my proper comeback race. And yeah, I ended up overdoing it in the lead up to that. Had like issues with the sciatic pain. There was some of the discs below the fusion started bulging and pushing up against nerves and like, thankfully managed to get through that race and still, you know, make my comeback. But then it was a few months out again after that and I think it was really only after that that I truly appreciated that. Okay, you're going to have to try a little bit of a different approach and respect, you know, what's gone on. And yeah, it's mainly like load management and not getting into that situation again where you, where you're doing damage.

So you get to this stage, there must have been a point where you thought, do I quit? So what was it that continued to push you forward and then describe what you went back to win? Ironman Wales again. Didn't you describe what it was like getting, getting back there and winning again?

Yeah, I mean that, I mean, in terms of quitting for sure. I mean, I must have retired a hundred times in my head over the course of being a professional triathlete. I mean not just at that stage but I guess at all stages when you do question your life choices. But yeah, as I said, I mean that's like once I like set a goal and for whatever reason it is trying to see that through, that I did manage to win 70.3 South Africa which I guess was the biggest reward at the time from all the work that I'd put in. But then had had those issues afterwards and then I went back over to Europe and trained with the Brett Sutton and his squad and yeah, struggled, struggled for a while. It was so up and down just thinking back. Yeah, I had had some really bad races and then managed to string together a few good weeks of training and get to Wales and in decent shape and win that again. Which, yeah, I mean it obviously it feels good winning good for your ego.

It's a tough race but it is an amazingly well supported race, isn't it? I mean it's beautiful but the support is incredible.

I mean it's honestly one of the highlights of my professional career racing. Yeah, I love that course, love the town and all the support you get along the way holds a special place in my heart and wouldn't change it.

Brilliant. So let's fast forward then to 2024 now. Ironman South Africa. 2024 holds a very special place in my heart because where I got my Kona slot, what I remember from that day is probably what everyone says every year and I think Claire warned me in advance who it was going to be was tough sea swim. Fortunately we got the full swim, not the shortened version lot. Very, very windy bike and then hot and windy run and I remember seeing seeing the pros flying by me which have. I say you were one of them that I would have seen. That's unbelievable in, in that wind. So describe what happened in that race as far as you're aware because I don't think you're completely sure what happened but maybe, maybe with time you've worked it out. Yeah. Describe what happened in that race for you.

Yeah, as you say, very. It was a very windy day and it's always a tough course even if the conditions are perfect. Always in for a poison for a tough day. But yeah, like I say, we had the full swim. Had a, had a great swim for me just trying to think there was. I was in the front pack. Yeah, the guy managed to get out first out of transition even that was, that was a standout and yeah we had some strong bikers that year. There was Cam. Yep, Cam Perth was there and Rasmus Swenington, who ended up winning. And we were all relatively close together. I think Cam had got up the road before my accident, before I crashed. Yeah, it was on the second leap. I think he was ahead by about a minute, but, yeah, very much in the mix. Still pushing hard and. Yeah, pushed a little too hard, I guess it was. I don't. I don't remember the accident but someone did take a video of it, surprisingly. So. Yeah, could see in hindsight what had happened. But yeah, on a descent and I think I just. I hit a bump, got a little bit airborne and there was a strong crosswind and like on the tri bike with a disc wheel and deep section front wheel, I think it just like blew me out and yeah, I ended up hitting the deck.

In those videos that you sent, like the day after, you do look like you're pretty beaten up. So how did you feel based on what you'd been through with the car? How did you feel in those. In those days, that day after.

I mean, again, initially I was. I mean, I was completely out of it. I was. Yeah, I had quite a bad concussion and so definitely wasn't thinking too straight. Apparently. All I was asking after the crash was, was the bike all right or who's got my bike and where is it? And then. Yeah, it was quite. Apparently I don't remember any of this. We're quite keen to know what had happened in the race and kept asking, you know, about the outcome of the race. Yeah, that was, I mean, after the accident, besides the concussion, the outbreaks in collarbone and. Yeah, a lot of road rash and tell her to operate on the collarbone. Yeah, for the second time and that. Yeah, match the other side. So both collarbone's broken now, but yeah, I mean, I think like with concussion symptoms it's. Yeah, definitely it takes a while and to start to start thinking straight again afterwards. And like it was quite a. It was definitely a very rough few weeks post crash where you, I guess not in your right mind and there's a bit of a daze, like thinking back a bit, you're just like very sleepy and yeah, like I said, just not, not thinking straight. But I mean, in the end it was. Caused the crash, I guess retired me. I haven't, haven't raced professionally since then.

Obviously there's been a lot of talk about those crashes. But what do you think? What's the toughest moment of your career that people didn't see that perhaps you know, what's been the toughest part of that whole journey for you?

Yeah, I mean, this last crash was tough. Just not like coming to terms with not racing again and dealing with that and not having, I guess, the ending that. That I would have wanted. Yeah, those few months after that accident were definitely hard to deal with. And as professional athletes do, you have. You have lots of setbacks along the way and, you know, you have your ups and downs and I guess just realizing that there will be, you know, there's no down without up and no up without down, and you just got to ride that wave and, you know, see your way through it. So get to the other side of that.

You mentioned there about the 2024 crash and that sent you into retirement. Were you already thinking about your career at that point, before that 2024 race? That actually, at some point I'm going to stop when I go out on a high. Some athletes do different things. They stop when they're at the top of their career or they kind of go out when things are sort of changing. So what made you make that decision? Was it purely the crash or were there lots of other factors involved in. In your retirement?

Yeah, I mean, I was. As I said, I've. I'd retired a few times in my head before that, but it was going to be, you know, potentially my last year. Like, it's always, I guess it's. It is hard to retire when you're on top because you don't, you know, you don't know how long you'll be able to, you know, if you can keep performing, then. Then you'll do that. And I think if I'd had good results last year, I potentially would have done another year. But, like, I had. I mean, I'd had some serious discussions with Nicole about the next steps, and Nicole was pregnant with our second child and traveling. Yeah. With a young family and trying to make a living out of being a professional. Childhood like, based in South Africa, at least it. It does mean a lot of time away from home. So, I mean, those were. Were big considerations. And then, of course, the financial, the financial aspect, you got to be doing well in races to earn a living. And so, yeah, there were lots of factors. And after that crashed, it was going to be like, you know, at least four or five months to get back to a good level of racing again. And, yeah, weighing everything up, but it just. It didn't make sense. And, yeah, in a way, lost. I didn't have the same motivation to, to prove anything to my or others again that, that I could make a comeback. I mean if I, I think if I'd had the same, I mean definitely if I'd, you know, was a younger me and, and had the same drive, then, you know, I could have come back and done something but just I'd lost that a bit and yeah, lost the need to, to prove anything and it was, it was a good, in the end, a good time to move on.

I, I guess like, you know, a really, really difficult decision. And, and now you're coaching and you mentioned obviously being coached by or under the eye of Brett Sutton before. Tell us a little bit about your coaching. So what have coaches in the past, how have they shaped you as an athlete and what have you taken from that coaching philosophy into your own coaching with athletes now?

Yeah, I think Brecht, he was my first, well, he was my second coach. I was coached by local professional triathletes here. Clearing Kent Horner, which was yeah, a great start. They had a great squad here that, that I started with and definitely set me up and set me on the right path and yeah, training with, training with others, at least initially it was, I mean, yeah, great fun and great way to learn and be motivated. And then when I went, when I turned pro, I was then, yeah, looking to race more overseas and try and be based outside of South Africa and so joined Brett Sutton and his squad and yeah, that was a big, big step in my career and I mean learned, learned loads from Brett. I think his, I mean he's, he's obviously one of the most successful triathlon coaches in history with the amount of Ironman world titles and Olympic titles. He's got his athletes too. Yeah, I mean his, his philosophy quite different I guess to, to a lot of other coaches. He's very good at looking at the entire holistic view of an athlete and you know, not focused on, on the numbers specifically at all really and more just how do we get this person as a, as a human being to, to their best potential. Yeah. And so looking at the overall picture and I guess knowing which buttons to push to motivate different people and creating, I mean the importance of creating the right environment is very important. And he had, you know, being surrounded by other high performing athletes in this training environment where I guess success is inevitable in the end is that that's the way it feels is. Yeah, it was huge. And I mean there's lots of like subtleties of the way he goes about it and. But in the end it's, yeah, just, just consistent training in the right environment was where the biggest lessons I took from Brett, from that I moved out of the family here, I guess, and was spending less time overseas and got a local coach who was a lot more into the numbers, so learned more on that, like, technical side of things, on setting specific targets. But, yeah, I mean, in terms of my own coaching, yeah, I guess it's a you approach. I try to take the best of both worlds there and into my coaching now.

A mixture of numbers and that kind of holistic part that you were talking about with Brett. And I guess you're an expert at getting over injuries and being patient with your body. So I'm sure that. I'm sure that comes across in your coaching about being patient. Is that something that you see a lot with your athletes in terms of kind of this rushed, got to do more hours and not give yourself enough recovery?

Yeah, for sure. I mean, it's definitely a lost art these days in terms of listening to your body and. Yeah, dialing into how you feel on each specific day and not becoming a slave to the program. And, yeah, we live in a very digital, connected world. And just taking it back to being in the moments and listening to your body on each day and just trying to get the best out of yourself on each day instead of chasing, you know, these metrics is a big part.

Of it with your coaching now and with your athletes. I mean, we've been having, obviously, a discussion since the World Championships in Kona had changed quite considerably, and with all the people we've been speaking to, all the guests on our podcast and in our own triathlon communities, it's been a really interesting conversation that we've had with lots of people yesterday. I don't know if the announcement came out before yesterday. I saw the announcement of Kona and the World Championships now coming back together so that males and females race on the same day. Tell us a little bit about what a Kona and that experience has meant to you. What do you feel sort of makes it really special to you as a race?

Yeah, I mean, Kona is. It is the pinnacle of Ironman. There's a lot of mystique around it. And as it's clear with the announcements and the polls that they've done, it's. It's very important to people. And a big driving factor on why a lot of people race Ironman is to get to Kono and to tick that box. Yeah, for me, initially, it was my first world champs was in Kono, and probably my best race there. I mean, not in terms of time, but just in terms of performance and enjoyment after that, I guess never that great. And racing in the heat, comparatively, I always perform better in the cooler conditions. And yeah, as a professional, the race definitely you need to, you need to swim well, you need to be in or very near the front pack in order to perform there. So like it's a very specific course from the professional side of things to do. Well, yeah, you have to, you have to fit into that box if you're going to perform this. Which, yeah, never really suited me. So, yeah, I would have like, personally would have liked to race in Nice, I think I never, I never did, but that would have been more suited to me. But yeah, in terms of the announcement, it's. That's what, that's what the people wanted and I understand that it's got so much history and there is, you know, it's Kona, that's what the birthplace of Ironman. And I think a good move in terms of giving the people what they, what they want.

It's difficult if you're in South Africa though, isn't it? So it's a long way from South Africa. I remember chatting to somebody out in Kona and that had come over from South Africa and that and I thought I'd had a long trip and they'd flown to London before they could start their, their journey to or continue their journey. So it is a long way. So I, I kind of get why Nice was, was a good offering. But I think the more important thing is that we've got the guys and the girls racing back on the same day, which to me is, is more important than. I mean Kona is obviously the, the iconic place and we all want to race Kona, but also, But I don't know, what are your thoughts on bringing the guys and the girls back together?

Yeah, I mean, I think the initial change was that they, they tried the two day events in Kono and that wasn't sustainable. And, and yeah, I think the initial thinking was that it was more important to try and have separate races anti stone Kona, which is why they moved to Meath. And yeah, I mean in terms of the fairness of the professional female race, yeah, you might be, might be losing a bit there. Personally, I don't know how much the, like the age group race is affecting the professional female race. Having passed the age group males around and then there's like a split coverage and that's you not, you know, each race isn't getting as much attention. But yeah, I mean, I think it was. It was. The only way to keep it in Kona was to have it on the same day. In an ideal world, I still think having the other separate races is probably a. It's probably a fairer race and, you know, you get the. The focused coverage if you have it on separate days. But, yeah, I don't know. I guess it's a difficult call, isn't it?

There is no perfect, is there?

Yeah. The reward of having it in kind of on one day outweighed the, you know, having it somewhere else on separate days. Yeah.

And so one of the questions that we finish off with always is we ask our guest for books that have helped them along their journey. So what books do you find yourself either, you know, recommending to the people you coach or what books particularly helped you on your journey through sports? Well, any books, actually. It doesn't have to be a sporting book.

Yeah, I think the standout book I really enjoyed, which I read when I was first starting out the men triathlon, was the Sports Gene by David Epstein. That was a good read. And I think Alex Hutchinson, Endure, that book was a great one. Like sports specific, by the way.

So David Epstein was also the guy that wrote Range, which was where we started this conversation, really. But, yes, brilliant, brilliant book. What did you take from Endure? We've had Alex Hutchinson on the podcast, and he's. He's brilliant. I love that book. What. What did you. What did you learn from that book?

Okay, but that's. Now you. I think Specific. No, I got, like, to be honest, I can't remember exactly what. What was in there, even it was a few years ago, but I remember really enjoying it. Yeah, it's.

It's a brilliant. It's a brilliant book. Any others that you would throw out there as books that helped you on your journey?

Yeah, the one I read in 2017, which made a big difference, was a book by Ryan Holiday called the Obstacle is. Is the Way. And that is just about embracing, I guess, where you are and just overcoming, like, overcoming the obstacle is the point. And if there's any point at all, then. Then that is it.

That is. It is also a great book. And I can see why in 2017, that would have been a very helpful book for. For getting you through what was clearly a huge obstacle. And then what we also do, we have a closing tradition on the podcast where we get the last guest to ask the next guest a question without knowing who that's going to be. Our last guest was John Hutton obe, who is the CEO of British Cycling and Claire, I think you've got John's question for Matt.

Haven you.

So John Dutton asked, what three leaders, dead or alive, would you invite to dinner and why?

I think it'd be interesting to. This may be controversial, but have Jesus, Buddha and maybe Lao Tzu, the founder of Taoism or Muhammad. Just some, some different perspectives on religion and the founding members and hear what they have to say to each other. I think that would be quite entertaining.

Wow. I think that would definitely be entertaining. So when I saw that we were going to be asking you that question, I was like, well, Nelson Mandela is obviously going to be one of those people. What question would you specifically ask at that table to open up the conversation?

Oh man, I don't think you'd have to ask anything. I think you could just sit back and let them fight it out, enjoy their different views.

My first question is what would they eat just looking at that range of people sat there.

Well, I mean you could just water and bread and could turn it into anything, I guess.

Well true.

And some red wine maybe.

It would be a feast obviously, which.

Would have to be South African red wine just to finish it off nicely. Brilliant. Matt, it's been fascinating chatting to you. I think it's, it's incredible how you got through that first crash and came back even stronger and performed like in clearly very difficult circumstances. Got back right back to the top of the sport. But I think it's been, it's been an incredible journey and it's been really interesting to learn how you got through that and, and where you're heading next. So just to finish off, what's next, what are you excited about in the future?

Well, at the moment I'm working back in the sailing industry. I'm doing sail design for a sail making company in Captain Cape Town, Ullman Sails. And yeah, getting back into the racing again. We got the Lipton cup coming up which is probably the biggest inshore sailing event here in South Africa. So I've designed some sails for the boats that we're racing on and yeah, that's been a challenge and you know, a big learning experience and I mean that is, yeah, definitely keeping me, keeping me motivated and engaged at the moment. And the next goal is improve as a, as a sail diviner and yeah, getting back into, into the sailing game which is a sport you can do for, for a long time.

Yes, it's not quite so hard on your body as, as some of the other previous ones. Matt, it's been absolutely brilliant. Where do people find out more about you.

Yeah, I mean that's, it's a tricky one because I don't do too much on social media. But yeah, I do have. Yeah, you can go and find me on Instagram mattychartman and you might see some updates every few months there. But yeah, otherwise. Yeah, I mean, reach out on Instagram in terms of the coaching. Yeah. If you are, if you are interested then that is, you can get hold of me there. Maddie Trapman on Instagram.

Amazing. Thank you so much and yeah, we look forward to following the journey as it continues.

Yeah, thanks guys. Been a pleasure timer.

So what do you make of the conversation with Matt?

I thought it was fascinating actually with, I mean, I'm saying fascinating. We're talking about crashes, aren't we? But I think his, I mean his starting point and this made me think actually we've interviewed lots of guests in terms of triathlon that have started with this kind of swimming background. And essentially he had this like water background, didn't he? I know he did lots of different sports, but that was really interesting just to. I guess it comes back to this having discipline at a young age in, in a sport, like being in a sport. So that, that was really interesting to me. And also there was two things actually I wrote down as he was saying it is, it was fascinating. We have, I don't think, well, since I've been co hosting the podcast, I don't think we've had anyone in terms of sailing yachts. I might well be mistaken.

I don't think so. Not in.

That was fascinating. And I was thinking like, how does that transfer onto sort of, of, you know, what, semi dry land. But actually him saying that it taught him to think about keeping your equipment prepped and you've got to make sure that you maintain things. And also this being at sea of course is out of your control the whole time, isn't it? So I thought that was really interesting that kind of. He's come into triathlon later on in life, progressed really quickly and yet he's got this kind of background of like look after your kit because a lot of triathletes don't do that particularly well. And this kind of being out of control that that day is never going to go completely as. As planned. What were your thoughts?

Well, I, I completely agree and I think so. We, where we started the conversation as well was about this, this difference between range and niching and specializing too early. And I thought, I think it's really interesting when you hear from people like him that have come in from a kayaking background, playing lots of different sp and then going into sailing and then becoming, you know, like pretty late on deciding I'm going to try triathlon because I saw the Brownlees do really well in London and then like a year or two later he's winning Ironmans and turning pro. I mean it's absolutely amazing, but it shows, it is a really great demonstration. And I know in range, David Epstein uses this example of Roger Federer versus Tiger Woods. And the example is that Tiger woods is, you know, the golfer who at the age of two was swinging a golf club and at the age of four he was going around a nine hole course in like 42 or whatever the number was like ludicrously good. And versus Roger Federer who. And then obviously so Tiger just goes on to become the best golfer in the world ever. And then Roger Federer, he played loads of different sports and it was only in his late teenage years that he decided to, to niche down and specialize in tennis. He obviously went on to become, well, arguably the best tennis player of all time. So I'm sure Novak would have a discussion about that. But. And yet we think, we think that most of the top best athletes in the world ever go down the Tiger woods path and specialize really early. And yet actually 95% of the top athletes come from a more diverse ranged background and they're more like the Roger Federer. And I think that's really interesting and I think that's kind of a bit of what we're seeing with this swimming background and people not necessarily ending up as swimmers, but it's kind of giving them range in helping them in different ways and in the same way that kayaking helped him. So I thought that was really interesting. What did you make about his kind of approach to returning after those crashes or after the first crash?

Interesting, isn't it? Because both his crashes were quite different in terms of, I mean obviously the second one he didn't return, but almost kind of where he was in terms of his career and maybe him still loving that sport. So that drive to actually. And he didn't mention some of the things actually I'd read in terms of his thoughts at that time. But this kind of actually, do you know what I want to go back to this kind of just being able to be somebody normal that can go out for a run and have a run. I think it really puts into perspective, you know, the way he told it in terms of, you know, actually you're lucky that there wasn't any other spinal Trauma and damage in terms of nerve damage, this is what we can do, which is not particularly great, but this is the best option. And actually, I'd be happy if I can run from this. And this is my, you know, this is my goal. And it must have been really difficult to be able to trust your body that it's okay to get back running, to get back out there on a bike. I've worked with numerous patients, but also athletes that have had spinal injuries. And it's quite terrifying to get back out there and, like, go, I don't know, is it okay? Can I run? Can I cycle? So it was amazing that he made this, you know, this. This huge comeback. And the fact that he just kind of threw himself. Threw himself back into things. But also, you know, how that maybe translated into his way that he went about training as well, because he taught quite a bit about, you know, respecting the recovery, that it did take a long time, that I did take longer to get back into it. And even with that, he still had setbacks of those injuries, but he was just gonna, you know, just gonna keep going.

And he alluded to the fact that. And I don't know that he said it specifically, but I've heard him say it elsewhere.

His.

His training changed quite a lot. He switched to doing, I think, on the bike. Something like 80% of his training turned to indoors. And. Yeah, and you can understand why that would be the case. I mean, obviously it helps you train more specifically, but, yeah, you can understand having been hit from behind by a car, why that would. Why that would be the case. So, yeah, I mean, it's phenomenal that he could do that. But I think he also was pushing too hard, and it was Brett that said, no, no, no, you need to back off a bit and actually allow this recovery to. To be. To be slower than you're trying to. To make it. Which, you know, I, you know, I suppose is the importance of having a coach, isn't it? Sometimes you need. You need them to tell you to slow down as opposed to speed up.

I think it also comes back to listening, you know, listening to you. And I always talk about, you know, with my clients, about listening to their body because, you know, your body does tell you things. It's just. We override it the whole time. And, you know, it takes a long time to recover from a lot of these things and actually listening to that intuition. So having. You're absolutely right. You know, having that coach there, and that's the importance of having a person as a coach. You Know, we often talk about AI, don't we, in terms of, you know, having, having your data there to tell you one thing, but it can't tell you actually whether you're ready to go forward if you're suffering from an injury. So I think that all three of those things are really important. I thought it was really interesting, he mentions, and I picked up on it with him, about the field becoming more competitive, which I thought was really interesting at the time. He was saying, well, maybe the field wasn't. I mean, maybe he was being very humble about his wins and how well he did, you know, but actually how that field has become, you know, a lot more competitive over the years. What are your thoughts on that?

I think you only have to look at the times to see that it is definitely more competitive. You know, the guys at the top of the sport are taking it more seriously from a science and technology point of view than it's ever been taken before. I mean, I think what's fascinating is we're only just now starting to see if you discount the advantage of riding a much more aero, much faster bike. We're only in the last two or three years have we started to see them coming back to, you know, getting past the times that Mark Allen and Dave Scott were doing, which shows you how phenomenal those guys, those guys were. But I think, yes, from a science and technology point of view, obviously in a nutrition sense, it's just so much more scientific than it's ever been. And therefore, yes, it is. And people are starting long course much earlier, which is, you know, they're specializing in that. And that's only gonna mean that you end up with, with, with better athletes in it. So, yes, I, I think that's the case. But yeah, another fascinating conversation. Another like, amazing story from a, an unbelievable athlete. So for everyone else, keep on training.