Future Marginal Gains with Julian Dean

Foreign.

I'm charlie redding.

And I'm claire fudge and this is.

The tribe athlon podcast.

They've sort of radioed the head to say, oh, some of the athletes have been fired at during the stage and we arrived to the finish like half an hour before Heinrich Hauser won and then there was just this massive media storm.

That was Julian Dean and this episode is Future Marginal Gains. Julian Dean is a former professional road racing cyclist from New Zealand who competed as a professional between 1999 and 2013. He last rode for the UCI World Tour team Orica Green Edge where he now works as a sporting director and formerly he'd ridden with Lance Armstrong. His main achievements include racing in and completing seven Tour de France's four times Olympian and he also won the 2007 and 2008 New Zealand National Road Race Championships. At the peak of his career he was considered the best lead out rider in the world. So Claire and I wanted to chat to him about the mental discipline of repeatedly setting up others for the win and not taking the glory yourself. We wanted to chat to him about racing in the Olympics versus the Grand Tours, about being shot whilst in the Tour de France and also about where the future marginal gains are going to come from in cycling. So I know you're really going to enjoy this interview with Julian Dean. 33 Fuel Produce Award winning natural sports nutrition and everything they do is led by their fuel loss fee for performance, performance health and for a fitter future 33 Fuel's awesome products have been fueling triathletes since 2012 as well as many of the world's best athletes from other sports like the England football team, Tour de France winners and triathlon world champs, including four times Ironman world champ Chrissie Wellington who's been using 33 fuel for years. I personally love their products. I particularly love their protein shake. I think it's delicious, but it's also not full of a load of junk. I love their meal replacement which is kind of brilliant for pre or post workout recovery. I love their Chia gels. Actually they work really well for me, but especially I love their energy bars and their protein bars. They feel like a proper treat to eat as well as being packed full of real amazing goodness. So find out more about 33 fuel.com and if you use the code tribeathlon or click the link in the show notes, you'll get a very extra special discount on your order. So Julian, welcome to the Tribe Athlon podcast. Thank you so much for joining me. We've got Claire here as well to kind of dive into the world of professional cycling. Something that actually we both confessed that we don't know that much about, despite the fact spending. We spend a lot of time on a bike. So, so let's kick things off by Julian, tell us a bit about how did you become a professional cyclist? What? Because I think there was a, there's a triathlon history there, isn't there? But how did you become a professional cyclist?

Cyclist.

Yeah.

I mean it's definitely quite interesting. You know, if you go back in triathlon history, New Zealand's always had a very strong track record in triathlon and if you go back to, to the 80s of the eras of, of Aaron Baker and Rick Wells, you know, triathlon was really an emerging sport in our country and I already started doing, you know, my interest in cycling grew out of triathlons. Aaron Baker and Rick Wells were real iconic athletes in, in New Zealand in the late 80s and early 90s and there was a very sort of strong movement in, in triathlon led led by them that sort of filtered right down into, into secondary schools. And I grew up in the north island of New Zealand on the coast and you know, we had a lot of surf clubs and surf competitions and things like that and the, the triathlon sort of grew out of, out of that and you know, secondary school competitions. There were local triathlons up and down the Bay of Plenty coast sort of every weekend and really it was just from a teacher at school getting a group of kids together that were interested and, and started doing those. And so my first introduction to cycling was actually through triathlons and you know, led by icons like Aaron Baker and Rick Wells. And I sort of found, although I was reasonably good at triathlons and New Zealand secondary school championships did well. It was sort of the, the thing for me I guess was the allure of cycling. You know, cycling was sort of always been a bit of a lower level sport in New Zealand. But you know, I, I really like the mystique of it, the, the European traditions of it and, and, and started to pursue that a bit more by the time I got out of secondary school and started university.

Fantastic. And so how did that transition through to becoming a professional site? Funnily we, we've just interviewed Leon Chevalier who is a, is a young professional triathlete, just came seventh in Kona. But his desire really is to be a professional cyclist. He would drop triathlon in a second if he could be a professional cyclist. So, so how did you make that transition? Where Did. Where did that come from?

I think and back in those days, you know, I made the. I was still doing triathlons and I made the New Zealand cycling team to go participate. I was sort of doing cycle races to try and improve my triathlon cycling. But I think what I really liked more was the cohesiveness and the tactics and the bunch riding. And it sort of turned out that I was developed for quite a young age. I was quite an explosive rider. I developed a really good sprint. So I was able to win bunch sprints and be as good as, if not better than many of the sort of 17 or 18 year olds in the sprints on the road. And, and I sort of just, just grew into that. I think it was more that sort of thrill of like the bunch sprinting and the touching and the, and the danger element of it that, that, you know, as a teenage boy that really sort of drew me into it. Um, because I sort of probably had that sort of daredevil streak in me from when I was a young kid because when I was real younger I, my first introduction to riding or racing a bike was, was through BMX when I was sort of around 8 to 12.

And so, so, I mean, I don't know if I'm guessing you've seen A Sunday in Hell. The, the, the documentary about. Actually I've forgotten, it's about Eddie Merckx not winning the. One of the Belgium classics. I can't actually even remember which one it is. But is it, you know, that mystique around, around that type of racing, is that sort of what drew you in? Is, is that kind of. Yeah. Was it, was it the romance of that type of stuff?

Yeah, I think so. You know, you know, these are some the reasons why we do sport on any level is a really interesting topic of conversation and there's often, you know, some discussion now that. Yep. You know, certainly as a, as a teenage boy especially the competition aspect is really good, competing against others. But I think the motivations for being involved and the drivers over the years have sort of always been slightly different. And as I developed, particularly in cycling, which wasn't really, you know, in the early 90s to mid-90s, you know, there wasn't a real good pathway for triathlon. Sport was still sort of evolving. You know, there were definitely international competitions but you know, globally it wasn't as prevalent as what cycling was and particularly road cycling. And you know, I have a, a, always had a bit of a, you know, as many people from New Zealand do, a bit of A yearning to go overseas and to travel and. And to experience new cultures and things like that. And there was certainly a point where I got into my sort of, you know, late teens or early 20s where, you know, cycling became a real cool vehicle, you know, to go. And I, you know, I got to go to the States and found a team in the States, was able to travel around the States and, you know, just stay with random people and do races all over America and got the chance to go to Europe and experience some different cultures in Europe. And that was really a big motivator for me. I mean, that's kind of, you know, experiencing those different communities and social environments was. Was definitely a big driver. I think we've got. And I may be wrong, but I think, you know, you can do all that stuff with a triathlon these days. But I think back then, you know, there certainly wasn't the scene in triathlon globally that was available in road cycling to be able to get engaged in those experiences and experience different cultures, live in different countries and those sorts of things. And that's certain. Certainly was a driver. I mean, I even remember when I first was with the U.S. postal Service and, and after racing three years in the States, they wanted me to go to Europe and race in Europe. You know, I still wasn't really. I wasn't like, oh, yeah, I want to go to Europe and ride the Tour to France. I was like, oh, yeah, that'll be cool. I'll go. Go to Europe. U.S. postal Service was based in Spain. They had an apartment there for me. Learn some Spanish, experience in other cultures, see a bit of Europe. And that's kind of what it was as much as the racing. Not saying the racing wasn't important to me, but that side of it was, you know, equally as attractive to me through a lot of my career as well.

So in another life, if you hadn't been as good a cyclist, you'd have probably ended up working. You might have ended up working in, like, walk about kind of roaming around the. Roaming around different parts of Europe. But as many of your compatriots do so well. And I think. I think having traveled around New Zealand, I kind of understand the. The Kiwi culture of. Of traveling and it's. Yeah, no, I could. I can. I can get that. One of the things I heard you say on a podcast, so I think your. Your main entry into the kind of professional. Well, not professional cycling world, but the kind of serious cycling world was the Commonwealth Games. And I remember hearing you say that actually you weren't that keen on the Commonwealth Games. You only did the Commonwealth Games once because, for example, they were. You had to. They had to recruit South Africa, didn't they? So that they became five teams in there and that became their bronze medal. But then I think I'm right in saying you've been involved with New Zealand coming back to do the Commonwealth Games in, in Birmingham more. What's your thoughts on the Commonwealth Games now? So tell us a bit about what your thoughts were then and. And has that changed?

Yeah. So as an athlete, I only did one Commonwealth Games on the track in 94 in Victoria, Canada. And I was a bit underwhelmed when I went there, particularly for that reason. I mean, one of the, one of the great inspirations for me was when I was 15 and my mum and dad took me to the Auckland Commonwealth Games and I was able to go watch the road race and the track cycling at the Auckland Commonwealth Games. New Zealand team did really well and I thought that that was amazing. And I was sort of still doing triathlons at that time, but I thought that was pretty cool. And then things progressed pretty quickly and I found myself in 94, the next Commonwealth Games on the track and the team's pursuit story, as you said, I think there was four teams. I needed a 15 to be able to give a bronze medal and I just felt that was always. And we ended up getting third, getting the bronze medal only because they scratched the South African team together. I just found it was a bit. A bit hollow and a bit underwhelming because obviously, you know, the big cycling nations are not in the Commonwealth Games. England and Australia, obviously, big cycling nations, but you don't have the Europeans in the Commonwealth Games. And sort of from that point, I was never really, you know, once I sort of got my first professional contract for European or American teams, it's not, you know, you have to battle a little bit with, to get released from the, the contract to go do the Commonwealth Games. And it was just. Didn't really ever seem worth it, the hassle and, you know, the underwhelming experience that I've. That I had the first time. So I sort of felt through my sporting career that a little bit of that mindset around the Commonwealth Games and I did question its value here as an athlete, but I've just been to Birmingham and working in the athlete support space for the New Zealand Olympic Committee there and it sort of reinvigorated me a little bit. And I know there's been a lot of talk over the Years of the value of the Commonwealth Games to that, you know, people saying that it's dead, it's not, doesn't really have the. Stop the Olympics. Not global enough. But, you know, when I saw the way the people of Birmingham embrace the Commonwealth Games and what it meant to so many of those people there, and also because I was working for the New Zealand Olympic Committee across a range of sports, you know, everything from lawn bowls to rugby to judo wrestling, you know, it's, it's really, you know, and a lot of those lawn bowls, particularly our wrestling and judo athletes are good, but maybe they're not quite at the Olympic standard, but they can go to the Commonwealth game and be really competitive and you sort of see that the Commonwealth Games for those, those sports or athletes that don't quite, you know, can't quite get to that Olympic level is really, really important. And, you know, if you can inspire some kids to be involved in sport back in your home country through your performances at the Commonwealth Games, if it livens up a city like it did to Birmingham, then you start from a social perspective. You know, I guess I'm a bit older, I've got a bit more broad view of things now and different things are important to me. And you start to see, well, there is a place for the Commonwealth Games. You know, it's definitely, you know, if it needs to be put into it to make sure that it's, that it, that it still happens. And you know, although we, we love our elite level performance sport, it's really important to have, you know, role models in sport to, on a social level and community level to engage people and, and try and encourage them into sport because, you know, it's, it's important, it's important socially, it's important health wise that we keep people active and we keep things moving and people moving and the Commonwealth Games is a way to do that, then that's, you know, that in my view, is enough reason to keep it, keep it going.

Brilliant.

Yeah, I think that's, I think that's absolutely right. How, what, what are your thoughts? You've written Olympics four times with New Zealand. What are your thoughts with regards to the Olympics? Well, again, then and now, is that, does that differ? I suspect it does differ a little bit from how you originally thought of the, the Commonwealth Games. But what, what are your thoughts and experiences from the Olympics?

Yeah, I mean, the Olympics is a, is obviously an amazing event. You know, when I did my first Olympics in Atlanta through to Beijing, I think this, you know, many aspects became really really different, you know, everything from, from security to social media and, and the exposure and engagement people could have have with the Olympics. Yeah, I mean, there's, there's, there's lots of different experiences that one can talk about and, you know, when they've been over multiple Olympic cycles, like I have, you know, I do know, you know, one story from Beijing now. I remember, like, sort of going out riding in Beijing and there was certain roads we're allowed to ride on, and they're all sort of barriered off these roads with big sort of advertising signs that we're allowed to train on. But if you look behind those, you know, the poverty when you're out in the country, in the outskirts of Beijing seemed really, really prevalent, but was all hidden by these big screens on these roads. We were training, so you sort of see stuff like that and you're going to. Man, this is, you're not seeing the real Beijing through the eyes of the Olympic Games. And, you know, we all, we all know that these events are big political base as we see currently with the Football World cup. Right. So there's, there's all that, that sort of stuff tied up in it, you know, from a cyclist perspective. You know, I think because our sport does have events that, that are so global every year, such as the Tour de France. And always the Tour de France was in July, and then, you know, a week or ten days later we'd have the Olympic Games on an Olympics year cycle. But I think for road cycling particularly, you know, why the Olympics is important. You know, Tour de France and World Championships, which happen annually, you know, if you would probably, you know, most Europeans would probably want to win a Tour de France over an Olympic medal, which is probably not the case in, in many sports. So our sport is a little bit different like that. So, yeah, I mean, there's, there's lots of nuances given the characters of our sport and comparing that to the Olympics compared to other sports. There's the political issues, but, you know, sometimes you just got to see through all that, see Olympics for what it is, you know, and it's the same, you know, like now I'm with the Football World cup, we all know the issues around FIFA, we know the issues around Qatar getting the, the Football World cup and those sorts of things. But sometimes it's just good to watch really good sport. Right. And if we get opportunities to do that, like we do at the FIFA World cup or the Olympic Games, I'm all for that. And sometimes, you know, you just want to push all that political stuff aside, and enjoy some good sport as well. And Olympics is definitely good for that.

Well, and, and ultimately, I suppose what it does is in, in, you know, like with Beijing and Qatar, you know, they are masking what is going on in normal life in Beijing, in Qatar. But actually what, what, what ends up happening is it brings the conversation to the, we get the amazing sport. I mean, like, I don't know if you were watching the football last night where Germany went out, Spain nearly went out, Belgium went out. It was absolutely bonkers. But it is bringing that conversation to the rest of the world and bringing awareness, isn't it? So actually in some ways, whilst the host country are trying to hide certain things, I think actually perhaps in the long run it proves to be as helpful for them in terms of perhaps changing that as it is for inciting.

Sport.

With, with your, with your. So you did this, the Tour de France seven times, which, and you finished all of them, which is, I think is unusual. So, but I think there are some particular stories that you've got from within the Tour de France that, you know, not, not being somebody that watches it all the time, these stories kind of really stood out to me. I think one involved being shot, one involved headbutting. So tell us a little bit about your. The highlights of the Tour de France, but perhaps also throw in those stories as well.

Yeah, I think, you know, for me, you know, one of the, one of the amazing things about the Tour de France is its purity and loyalty to the sport. And you know, I always used to feel this, you know, coming off the, off the back of the Tour de France and then going to the Olympics and, and having all those surrounding issues at the Olympics, whether, which was not always sport related, but the Tour de France has always, always, nearly always about the sport. The athletes at Tour de France are the priority. Getting the race going and having the, the race going smoothly is the priority. Like it's such a, and the cyclists are the focus of the Tour de France. And you know, when you got to the Olympics, like you were just absorbed in this big media mass of all these different athletes and it's just a really different feeling beast, you know, you don't actually feel like you're part of a big sport. I mean, obviously feel like you're a big part of a big sporting event, Olympics, but it's so big that you just sort of get absorbed in it. Whereas the Tour de France is just about cycling, it's just about the sport. And what you come to realize with, with a Tour de France is what it means to the French and it's such a big cultural event as well. And you know, the, the towns are preparing for it all year that, you know, they're having festivals when the Tour comes to town. And it just means so much to. And people on every level in a community in France connect in some way to the Tour de France. It's, it's connection is just huge and it creates a special energy around that and you know, such a. Obviously there's been years where it's been quite, quite predictable, but you're just never really sure, you know, something's going to be thrown up at some stage during the Tour de France and, you know, whether you're just a bunch fuller kind of like I was much of the time. And it could be random things. Like the time that I, I did get shot, it was, it was a lot of media hype around it. A big deal was made out of it, but it was really kind of nothing because it was all around the, the terrorism attacks around in Madrid that happened earlier that year. And terrorism was, well, still alive and big threat now, but it was just sort of coming into the fore. But we're sort of out. Yeah, I was out the back, back of the race and we were in the groupedo, which is the sort of one of the last groups on the road on a sort of medium mountain stage with, with a bunch of sprinters. And when we get the bunch of sprinters, you know, we just have to arrive together at the finish for the next sprint stage. You still got to ride hard because you've got to ride within the time cut, but you're together and just trying to survive to get through that stage. But as we're sort of cresting one of the hills, it was myself and Oscar free. It was a world champion at the time. We're sort of riding along and we hear this tink, tink, tink, and, and it was sort of a cold day. And you know, when you're riding your bike on a cold day and the stone sort of hits up and flicks you in the finger or, or in the face or something like that, you sort of feel it, but it kind of has that numb sort of feeling because the skin, your fingers or your, or your skin's kind of cold and that's kind of what it felt like. And then Oscar comes back past me and he goes, oh, I've just been shot. And he had a, some blood coming out the side of his leg. So he's gone back to the medical car to see them because each group always has a doctor following in the medical car. And they've sort of radioed the head to say, oh, some of the athletes have been fired at during the stage. And we arrived to the finish like half an hour before. I think Heinrich Howard won. And then there was just this massive media storm and, you know, they were saying, oh, how does it feel to be shot in the Tour de France? And. And I had taken a. I didn't know at the time, but I'd taken a. Been shot in my finger. And. Then, yeah, mass media storm. You know, everyone's worried about security and all this sort of stuff. And I grew up on a farm here in New Zealand and one of the things that we, we used to do was when cars were going past and we'd have a BB gun and we'd shoot the cars going past and hope we didn't get caught, you know, so just kids on a farm, right, doing, doing dumb kid.

I mean, growing up on a farm. I know what you're on about.

Yeah. So that's all I sort of thought about it like at the time. But media had blown it up, it became a security risk. There was always questions being asked, the police got involved and I was up doing police interviews until like half past one, two o' clock in the, in the morning. But all the media around, it was, oh, do you feel safe to start? How do you feel on all this stuff? Which was just really nothing because it was just a, a couple of naughty kids doing something they, they shouldn't have been, you know. But it turned out to be quite a big event because, because of the current circumstances at the time, I got shot in the finger and we still had a week to go. I got to Paris and racing up and down the Champs Elysees in Paris and I think it's still been quite sore and it's sort of been all right. But I got home after the tour and about three or four days later my finger just got like massively infected. So I went to the doctor and they X rayed it and the BB had actually lodged itself in my finger. And I've ridden the last week of a tour with that. So I actually had to have surgery on my finger when I got home to, to get the, the BB pellet taken out of, out of my finger, which was, was kind of funny. It was going into the, to the operating theater and lying there in the operating theater with my finger poking out and all the operating lights. Yeah, it was all right, but Kind of a, kind of a funny story.

Excellent. And I can't help but ask, so I know you rode as part of Lance Armstrong's US Postal Service team. What is, is there one story that stands out to you about your interactions with Lance?

Yeah, I mean, you know, we all know the controversy, controversy surrounding Lance and, and no one can deny those, but you know, there's a, he did a lot of good things for a lot of people. But I think in terms, you know, if we think about, about sport, and this is one of the things that I always like to talk to aspiring athletes or young kids a bit about is, you know, everyone's got something to give. You know, there's something to teach you, there's something to learn from someone. You know, sometimes it might be what not to do, but you know, there's always good things to learn, you know, and you know, one of the things that I really learned from, from Lance was, you know, he was a, you know, no matter like what people say, he was hard working and like, and he demanded a lot of the people around him, you know, and I don't know, you know, some of your listeners may have seen that, that Michael Jordan documentary called the Last Dance on, on Netflix. Yeah, it's really a really good documentary and certainly, you know, really worth watching. But you know, you know, what Michael Jordan did to the Chicago Bulls was what Lance Armstrong did to those, know, in his team or those around him. He brought them up through his work ethic and the way that he went about his business, you know, to, to his level. And you know, when you get people like that, that can bring a whole organization up as Michael Jordan did to the Chicago Bulls, you know, you can get some, you can achieve some extraordinary results. And you know, there's, there's no denying that, that, you know, cycling, like triathlon, you know, it's a hard, it's a hard man sport. It's a, it's a hard working sport. You've got to put the hours and, and you know, Lance was really the epitome of that. You know, there's all that peripheral stuff as well. But I saw an experience, you know, an athlete that worked, you know, night and day, thought everything through tension to detail and just worked like really immensely hard, you know, and, and that was something that I, you know, tried to aspire to and carry through through my sport career. And you know, you, you know, you hear about all the great athletes. The Michael Jordan's, Lance Armstrong's tiger was the Williams sisters. They, they worked, man. They Trained. They worked and they trained, they worked, they trained and you know, you can't get away from that. You know, if you, if you want to be that there we, you know, no matter what's going on periphery, that's at the core of it.

Yeah, I think you, yeah, it comes back to something we've talked about on the podcast a few times and particularly in recent episodes, but I think it's, it's, it's all about, you know, that it gets talked about a lot with the 10,000 hours, doesn't it? And you know, we see people, we see people that are, that seem to be naturally talented, but what we don't see is what goes on behind the scenes and how those people, whether it's Lance, whether it's, you know, Richard McCraw, whether it's Michael Jordan, they just seem, they, they put in the hours and particularly the sort of, that, the purposeful practice as it gets termed or deliberate practice, you know, to really kind of become the absolute best. And yeah, I think that's, that's really interesting.

Now.

You were known as the best lead out man on the Tour for, for, in your day. Now I have to admit I, I had to kind of, I listened to your podcast to understand what the lead out man was, but I think I kind of understood it. But that meant that you were working your absolute socks off until, well, at, towards the end, but never really getting the kudos. How did that, how did that sit with you and how, you know, is that, does that naturally come easy or is it the. Sometimes you're thinking, you know, what, I could push on and potentially win this. How was it to be a lead out man?

Yeah, I think, you know, New Zealanders by nature tend to steer a little bit away from the limelight generally. Not all of them, but generally I think when you've come from a country like New Zealand, you're in the European racing scene, you've given an opportunity with a team, you feel really privileged to be able to be given that opportunity, you know, given that, you know, New Zealand cyclists, particularly back in the day when I was forging my path weren't really well known. The things are a bit different now, but you know, you had to be grateful. And you know, I got my first ride in the Tour de France because I was taken, because I was going to be a lead out rider for Thor Huoft. And just to give people some context, you know, you're basically, you know, on thought who shop was the sprinter. So we're going for the mass sprints the big sprint and you're delivering that sprinter that's going to hopefully win the race to within, you know, 200 meters of the finish line. And I think it was a little bit, a little bit me by nature. But you know, although when I was younger I did have a lot of victories, you know, then I spent two or three years in that lead out role, got really established, really well respected, but then you spend two or three years racing, not going for the win and the chip kind of changes and you know, although I did try to get out of that when I left the French team at Credit Agricola and have an opportunity, the mental shift around that is quite enormous and I didn't really probably realize it at the time or surround myself with the support network that I needed to try and make that shift. And then I sort of spent a year trying to search up my own opportunities and do my own sprints and have a team for me and we didn't get any success. You know, anyone that's been in professional sport or anyone knows anything about professional sport will quickly realize, you know, you're really only as good as yesterday race, you know, because there's, you know, there's plenty of talent coming up behind you, sponsors want results, you know, and if you don't, you know, if you don't prove your worth, then, you know, I'm sorry, but, but know, we'll find someone else sort of thing. So, you know, from being that lead out guy, I tried to make that shift out of there. Wasn't comfortable, didn't really do that well, so I sort of fell back into it almost by default. Having said that, you know, I've really enjoyed that role as well because, you know, you're the guy. So, you know, I, I was the last guy with the sprinter behind me, you know, I'd have two or three guys to organize in front of me and you're that actual one like sort of calling the shots in, in that, you know, final few kilometers of the sprint, when to go, when to hold back, when to move left, when to move right. And then, you know, you've got, you know, four or five guys that you have to really build that trust on and it's quite an awesome, when you get it going well and, and you know, that movement within that group and within the peloton is really fluid and there's a lot of trust there and people can know what's going to happen without really communicating it because you've worked so well together. It's a really unique thing to be a part of, you know, and, and I guess for me, yep, you can stand on the podium, you can get the media attention. But you know, what I, what I always really used to value was when we turned up at the start line the next day and the people that I was competing against would say to me, God, that was a phenomenal lead out you did yesterday or Thor Hushoft wouldn't have won if it wasn't without you or Tyler wouldn't have won that stage if you hadn't have done that, you know, and when you, the people that you are competing against or the people that really know the sport say that to you, to me that was always the highest accolades that you could, that you could ever get now.

Brilliant. And I suppose I can't, I can't help being, being a Brit that cycles. I can't help but using the term marginal gains, where, where do you, where do you think the, the marginal gains are going to come from in the next few years? Or if that's too difficult a question, where have they been recently? But where do, where do you think that those kind of. Because we're all looking for marginal gains, where do you think they're going to come from?

I, I think, I think it's going to be a, a evolution and in the mind and I'm not sure really the best way to explain this, but there's going to be an evolution in sports psychology, I reckon, and sort of the next three to five years. And when I say sports psychology, what I'm meaning there is, is helping athletes create more broader identities of themselves. So I think we've gone, gone through a phase where everything's been really sort of scientific down to the nth degree, you know, collecting data on that, logging that, fixing that, you know, making these small changes around all the stuff that we can measure scientifically. And there's a lot of that and that stuff's still going on and that will still go on, but I think there's a lot of unknowns around athlete mindset. You know, Certainly, you know, GB's done a lot of good work in this space, but I think they've only really scratched the surface of it. You know, I reckon there's going to be some big shifts around, and this might sound a bit out there around spirituality and individuals being a bit more free spirited about their identity. Creating identities for individuals where they can work in high performance environments but still connect back to where they came from and allowing that connection to where they came from to be brought into that High performance space. Even though, you know, a group of scientists at British Cycling or British Triathlon might not be able to quantify that. But if you can make that athlete feel a little bit comfortable and make those connections to where they've come from. And it sort of goes a little bit back to who, you know, when I talked about one of the drivers, for me, about forging a pathway through professional cycling was the need to travel and the need to explore different cultures and experience different cultures. And it's sort of like that was sort of a. A cultural or a social need of mine. And cycling was kind of almost the vehicle to do that, right, to fulfill that. And I think that there's going to be a really interesting space. And we've already sort of started to explore some of this stuff here in New Zealand with MORI frameworks and indigenous frameworks and what makes those athletes thrive. So I think there's going to be a. Some big openings and some real interesting cool stuff. You know, we're seeing, you know, athletes from all over the world, you know, competing in sports at a high level that we've never, you know, from cultures that we'd never really expect before. But, you know, you can't take, you.

Know.

People from Africa, drop them into a European professional cycling team and hope they're going to be all right, you know, but if you create that, if you're. If you connect with where they're from, bring some of that stuff into the team, support them around that, I think there's some real interesting space there to be able to, you know, change the concept around high performance.

And having read James Kerr's Legacy, which is all about the All Blacks, which I don't know whether you've read or not, but do you think this is one? I mean, obviously your blacks probably not had their best year ever this year, but, you know, given the size of the country, the All Blacks have massively over achieved year on year. Is this. Do you think what you've just described is part of the essence behind why the All Blacks have overachieved for so long?

Yeah, I have. I have read James Kerr's book. Look, I have to say, I think it was. I think the timing of that book, I mean, with all books that. That people perceive as being really good, there's always an element of timing in that as well, you know, and, you know, I certainly don't think that the. The All Blacks did what they did because they made the athletes sweep the sheds out. Right? I think it's definitely part of it. And but what I sort of think is that is what, and you know, I see this, my own kids at secondary school now is, you know, the, the, the football coaches or the rugby coaches get the kids to sweep the out because that's what was written in James Kerr's book.

Right.

That's how we create a good team. And I think it's just kind of, you know, I think it worked for them and at that particular time. Yeah. And you know, amongst a whole, whole lot of other stuff that was going on, it's kind of a cool story. It worked with him. Definitely, definitely has, has value and adds some, some character value to the organization. But you can't just, and this is what I was going back to a little bit before, you can't just blueprint these things like from organization to organization. I just think that stuff just, just doesn't work because it's not, there's, there's no cultural connection down through that organization. I think, you know, the all black sort of developed that that was their thing. You know, lots of other bits and pieces sort of added to that and that worked really well through that time frame. You know, it's a bit like sky cycling. Right. They had a really good model that worked for that period that, that they were so dominant and you know, marginal gains was, was definitely part of that. They, they tapped into that. They did that really well. But that stuff doesn't last forever and you can't just take that and then drop it straight into another team or another environment and, and hope that it's going to work.

Perhaps that whole marginal gains piece was, was actually part of the, the psychology as well as the. I mean, I'm sure the gains were, were absolutely important, whether it was the sleep or whether it was the aerodynamics or whatever it was. But for that period of time, perhaps that was the thing that the whole team was bought into and perhaps that delivered some sort of psychological benefits that you've just described. But I think it's really, I think that's really interesting and I, I love your take on sweeping the sheds. So that's, that's very funny. But so where, given that you understand the world of triathlon and you, and you understand the world of cycling clearly even better, is there anything that you think that the world of triathlon could learn from what you guys are doing in cycling at the moment and also vice versa, Is there anything that you think that you guys could take from what's going on in triathlon at the moment?

Yeah, I mean, kind of one of the things that I sort of, that I think is good in triathlon is they're not afraid to experiment with the format of the sport a little bit. Like, you know, those super short course triathlons, the teams triathlons, the mixed real age teams triathlons, all that sort of stuff. And I know, I think, you know, cycling sort of played around with it a little bit and I think, you know, you'll go through phases and, and I think Trifon may have already done this. You know, they'll try some things, doesn't really work and then they'll just shelve it. Right. It's, I think that stuff's kind of cool. I think that that creates, you know, you know, I remember, you know, Jerry Ryan who was the, the owner of, of Green Edge and then now the Bike Exchange cycling team that, that Simon and, and Adam cut their teeth and you know, and he is a renowned businessman in Australia and made his money through, through camper vans but expanded out to other businesses to create more wealth. And one of the, one of the businesses he had was the Walking with Dinosaurs show which some of your listeners may have seen, but it was a show that traveled the world, great for kids and go see these life size dinosaurs in a stadium that sort of moved around or whatever. But it was an entertainment business, you know, and Jerry always used to sort of say to us when he still owns a cycling team that we're in the entertainment business and professional sport, that's what we do, right? We entertain people that want to, want to, want to watch us. And you know, you've really got to keep that. You know, as much as people might not think that's the case, it is the case because that's where, that's where our revenue comes from. And you know, there's, what's happening now is, you know, there's so many, there's so many new sports that kids can do and, and get engaged in and there's so many different ways of watching sport that you know, you have to get your finger on the pulse. You have to keep trying new stuff and, and I think triathlon is, is pretty good at that. And I think cycling needs to try and enter that space a little bit more. You definitely got to try and you know, cycling is much more historical and traditional. You've definitely got to retain that. Some of that stuff, how you bring new elements into it is kind of definitely one of the things that I think about a little bit in comparing those two sports.

I think that's really interesting. I Think so. You've just kind of hit on a hot topic at the moment in that. So I think triathlon is good at innovation and trying different things, but equally at the moment we've just had the announcement that the Ironman World Championships won't happen every year in Kona for. So they're going to switch it. They haven't quite announced all the details yet, although it would appear that most of the details are out even though they've not been announced. So I think that they are taking personally, I think they're taking away some of that magic and history. And you know, for a lot of athletes it's not like the age group is, it's not really about going to the World Champs, it's about racing in Kona, the home of triathlon. And I think moving it away from there takes some of that magic away. And so perhaps this is something that triathlon needs to learn from cycling, which is very much, I mean, other than that, other than the fact that they've just announced that the Tour de France is not going to finish in Paris next year, which perhaps it'd be interesting to hear your thoughts on that. Although I think that's just a one off and probably for slightly better reasons. But is that something that triathlon needs to learn from cycling to keep that kind of history and culture there and the, some of the magic and mystique within it as opposed to purely being about innovating and making it bigger?

Yeah, I mean, I definitely agree with you 100% on that. You know, if there was one event that, you know, and I certainly don't know as much about triathlon as most of your listeners, but you know, if anyone in the world thinks of triathlon, they think of Kona. Right? That's, that's the marquee event in the, in the triathlon or Iron man world. And to me it just seemed ludicrous. A ludicrous thing to do is to, is to take some of the heart out of that. And I don't think, you know, I, I, you know, you talk about them not finishing in, in Paris the year after next, but that's not going to be an issue because, you know, the year after that I'll go back to Paris. You know, that's definitely a given. And the Tour de France, I think it hasn't always, might not have, there might have been another time it didn't finish in Paris as well, I reckon.

But there was, it was in 1905 or something like that.

Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, but you know it's just going to be a one off. Right. You know, the year after it finishes and these, it's going to go back to Paris like for sure. So, you know, and I, I think, you know, also one of the things, you know, we, we're always, you know, people are pushing for equality and sport and, and triathlon's always been, been really good at that. And even, you know, you have, you know, the woman's and the men's events together in Kona, you know, they're on a par there. Right. And I think that's, you know, to separate them out and have them in different locations is just sort of going away from what seems like to me it's going away from what the rest of the world is trying to create.

Yeah, yeah, I couldn't agree with you more. I think it's, I think it's a real, real shame and I think that, yeah, I think when you take some of that magic away, it just becomes about, well, actually if it's not magical, I might as well go and do the race that's kind of somewhere completely different or, you know, the PTO race rather than an ironman race or kind of, it all becomes somewhat neutral, doesn't it?

So.

Yeah, no, I agree. So we, we ask every guest that comes on the podcast for a book recommendation. In terms of, is there any books that you found? We've talked about a couple of resources in terms of the Last Dance, which is absolutely brilliant, the James Kerr book, which you're less keen on. But are there any books that you find yourself recommending or that you, you. That you found to be really helpful in your journey?

Yeah, I mean, it's interesting, I guess, as, as, you know, if we, if we're going back, it's probably a little bit out there, a little bit off, off topic, but I've sort of been reading a lot lately around Eastern spirituality and, and yoga practices and, and meditation and, and the value of, of all that stuff. And the, the, the book that I've been reading, which is not in my office here with me at the moment, is, is called Auto Autobiography of a Yogi by Paramahansa Yogananda. And it's, it's a book really. You know, I think since I've retired, I, you know, I've gone, I've started to look into the stuff a little bit more after a few struggles and, and trying to, you know, you know, your cycling, professional cycling career has gone, athletic career has gone away from you. So who are you really? And all that sort of stuff. And this is why some of the stuff I was alluding to earlier about creating, you know, giving athletes at, at the top level space to actually identify with who they are, I think is, can have massive performance gains at the top level as well as well as help them in life after their spot, after their sport. So that's, that's been an interesting space that I've sort of been, been delving in a little bit. And interestingly, I'll just tell you one little story about that book was it was at Steve Jobs's funeral when he died, everyone that went to the funeral was given an iPad box and they thought that in the iPad box was going to be a brand, brand new iPad. But all the people attended that funeral opened the iPad box and there was a copy of that book in that box. So. And it was said to be the only book that he actually ever kept in his, on his iPad and he, he, he read it one once a year. So there's, you know, it's definitely been a book that's inspired a lot of people. It's not probably topics that we are really used to discussing when we're talking on podcasts about high performance sport or sport, but I, I reckon just watch this space, all that stuff is going to be coming into sport at the highest level and the coming years.

I, yeah, that is, that is really interesting. I have had that book on my reading list for a little while and never got round to actually putting it to the top of the reading list. But I hadn't heard the Steve Jobs story about that. So I shall be, I shall be getting into that book very soon actually, because that's really interesting. Now one thing that we've started doing on the podcast is getting the previous guest to ask the next, next guest a question without knowing who that guest will be. So previous guest was Leon Chevalier, the, the triathlete. Claire, have you got Leon's question?

I have, I'm, I'm still here. I haven't talked the whole time. I am still here in the background.

The delay is kind of meaning that it was just a bit easier for me to take over.

I think super interesting to, to hear about particularly you know, around the kind of psychology of things. And I think, I think that is a huge space that is semi, semi untapped. So I think, I think yeah, it'd be interesting to see. So when we spoke to Leon say one of his questions or his question was. And this is some of some of the things that we talked about actually in, in Our interview with him. What have you done maybe behind the scenes that no one else has known about, that's made a huge difference to your, your career as a professional cyclist, if anything.

Yeah, I think for me, probably, probably two things was, you know, as, as global athletes, we're traveling around all the time. We're living in different places and I think, you know, especially being from New Zealand, where the bottom of the world, we're the most furthest away from anywhere in the world. But learning to, you know, when you're traveling around or when you're going places, learning to, to settle in, embrace where you are and get connected with the, with the people that are around you and, and, you know, often, you know, especially, you know, a lot of cyclists, a lot of triathletes now, if they're going to Europe, they'll go to Girona and they'll stay in Girona and they'll have their little clicks there, and they don't really go outside of that. But your experience. Will be much easier when you're an athlete. You'll get much more personal growth out of it and, you know, it's. You'll feel much more connected. And, you know, we're social creatures. We thrive on connection. We do well when we're connected. And, and if you just put a little bit of effort into making that happen, I reckon that can, you know, and it can just be, you know, even if you're a middle of the road triathlete wanting to go away and, and do some events somewhere else, you know, just those little things can make the experience so much more enlightening.

Interesting.

Well, I, I couldn't agree with you more. I think one of the, one of the things I've loved about getting into triathlon is the opportunity to go and race in parts of the world that I would never have gone to ordinarily. You know, whether it's kind of Chevia in, in Italy, whether it's Tallinn in Estonia or, you know, just different places that I wouldn't be going to. I mean, Tallinn I should have gone to on the stag do circuit, but I somehow missed it on that. So. So going back to doing Iron man seemed like the obvious next step. But, yeah, I just think it's, it's a brilliant excuse to travel, and I think particularly with what you've done, you must have. How did you find the culture difference between. Was it. Was it a cycling with lots of, you know, passionate French and Italian cyclists? Was that. Was that sometimes difficult or was it just, you know, was it A bonus?

Yeah, I mean it was, it was really difficult, you know, when, when you're entrenched and you know, a Danish team or a French team as, as, as my, some of my key experiences were, you know, are you, you know, you have to, I mean they French do things their way. They're a cycling nation and, and you know, you're not going to change the way that they do things and you know, and you just have to find ways to, to work around that and, and you know, try and adapt your practices and the way you do things, you know, to, to, to best fit around that. But, you know, it can certainly be. Be frustrating and you know, particularly, you know, those, you know, you know, we, you know, you mentioned about marginal gains, but you know, if you looked at cycling 10 years ago or 15 years ago because it was so steeped in tradition, you know, gains were really easily made because no one, you know, we just thought that, you know, that's how Europeans did it, so that's how it must be best, you know. But, you know, think things are changing. The European teams are catching up, the French teams are catching up, but still they, they get stuck, stuck in tradition and that can, can be sometimes frustrating and hard to deal with.

Brilliant. On that note, Julian, we'll wind up but it's been absolutely fascinating talking to you and in particular I've loved talking about the sort of history of the importance of the history in the sport and also the psychology thing. I think that, I think you're absolutely right. I think there's, as you say, you know, there's, we've scratched the service surface on that with things like Dr. Steve Peters and. But there a whole lot deeper stuff to go go through. I thought the book you were going to say actually was, was the Resilience Project, which is by an Aussie, which is a really lovely book on. He's an Aussie teacher, but on mindfulness. Really, really good book. But I'm definitely going to check out the Autobiography of a Yogi and, but yeah, thank you so much and you know, I wish, wish you great success as a sporting director going forward.

Great. Now thanks for the time guys.

You want to find out more about Julian, the best place to find him is on Twitter and he is Julian Dean nz. So what did you make with, of the chat with Julian?

It was great. I think, I think actually something for everyone in terms of some of the things that we covered. So, you know, we were talking actually just before the, the podcast about the Kona, the World Ironman World Championships. And the, the moving from Kona and the splitting of male and females. And I think, you know, that tied in really nicely with what we were talking about in terms of history behind cycling. And, but actually their history is so great behind the cycling world that actually even the Olympics aren't something that really draws them in. It's actually their, their bigger cycling tours. So. And I think probably where we are right now as triathletes, and I know many, many listeners are triathletes. You know, I think that's, that's our history, isn't it? That's where, where our history sits in terms of, certainly if you do endurance triathlon is Ironman. So I think that was very kind of person where we are right now, really.

But yeah, I thought it, I thought it, like, hadn't really expected to end up having that conversation with him, but it absolutely hit the nail on the head when, as you say, when the Olympics and the Commonwealth Games just didn't really seem that important to him because it was all about, you know, the Grand Tours and the classics and all because of the history and the culture associated with them. And then we've got, at the same time, we've got Iron man going. Yeah, we're not going to, we want to, we want to basically get more athletes, elites in. So therefore we're going to take it away from. I mean, like, imagine if they just said, right, well, you know, we're not going to do the Tour of France, Tour de France in France anymore. We're now going to do it in Qatar because guess what, you know, the money means that we can make more money. I'm not saying Ironman only doing it to make money, but I think it's.

An interesting point.

But, you know, it just rips the salt, the soul out of it.

Yeah.

There is only so much, the innovation and making it, you know, again, it's like cricket is trying to innovate massively with things like 2020 and 100 and all that sort of stuff. But you've got to have the, the core. You know, if they, if they, if that all, all ends up again, if they go playing guitar, it's going to rip the soul out of it, isn't it? So, yeah, I think that was really interesting. What else did you take from Julian's conversation?

So I, I mean, and I think this, this leads on from a number of conversations we've had on throughout the podcasts, kind of more recently actually is, you know, we talk about these, these marginal gains, don't we? And there's so many developments in the, in kind of the world of, you know, data collection, new ways of measuring, you know, all of what can we tap into to make ourselves as good as we can be. And, and yet he comes back to actually it's our psychology, our head. And you know, this is really interesting, isn't it? It's not something that you can buy. It's like going out and buying happiness. You can't do that. It's something that you, that you create. And I, I think that's really interesting. And I think it, although in the world of professional sport the use of like psychologists for example, has, has been there for many, many years. But it's interesting, like how can we improve ourselves through that psychological route? And he brought in kind of the spirituality bit as well, didn't he? And actually I was, I was just thinking of our kind of interview with Mark Allen and kind of what he was talking about there as well. So I think that to me is, is, is really interesting. Yeah. How, how about for you, like what, what are your thoughts? Because I know you're, you're quite a data driven person and you like your figures and numbers and how does that sit with you in terms of, from a psychological, from a psychology perspective?

I completely agree. I think, you know, why do you think we ask about which books have the greatest impact on people? Because actually that, that is, you know, it's a book versus a power meter. And I know that a power meter has helped me, but books have helped me way, way more.

Yeah.

And whether that, you know, obviously some of those books are more on, but none of those, none of the books I tend to read are on marginal gains. They're more around psychology and you know, books like Alex Hutchinson's Endure just show that how, how much untapped potential in, in the human species is there when it really needs to be. You know, if you remember the chat we have with Charlie Spedding and he, he was like, well you know, my goal was to win a medal and he'd got the, the bronze medal was in the bag. Could he have probably gone on and won a silver medal if that was, if that had been his goal or if that next person had been the gold as opposed to, you know, would he have gone a bit further, faster? Would you have gone a bit faster if a lion was chasing him? Absolutely no doubt. So you know, that central governor theory of, you know, pushing beyond what the brain seems to want to let you access is, and clearly some people are better at that than others and understand you know, you've only got to watch James Cracknell to see what, what some people can do to themselves. I just think it's. Yeah, I completely agree and I think that that's, the data stuff is interesting to a certain extent, but for me the psychology stuff is way more interesting. And, and there's so much scope for development there. I think there's a, there's a really, just on that point, there's the one story that keeps, I keep coming back to and I don't know if I've ever talked about this on the podcast, but I've talked about it a lot while drink over a pint of real ale in, I think it's. In Ada Harahan Finn's book the Rise of the Ultra Runners, he talks about a story where there was a very average runner, you know, very, she was a runner, but not brilliant. And then she was in a, a car crash. I don't know if you've ever seen the film Memento, but the film Memento with Guy Pierce is where he can't make short term memories. So he, he basically keeps, he, he, you see the film in reverse because he can't make these short term memories. And essentially the same thing happened to this, this lady that was an average runner, but what it meant was she couldn't remember being tired from the pain.

Yeah.

And as a result she went from being a very average runner to a top ultra runner just because the brain, you know, physically she hadn't changed, but mentally she was forgetting that she was tired and that allowed her to push far deeper into, you know, override the central governor. So I just think that's really interesting. So I think there's so much potential there.

Yeah, I think, I think just to, to bring it back into the world of new nutrition as well. I think, you know, we, we spend a lot of time which, you know, and you said, you know, all of these things are really, really useful. It's useful and it can improve our performance in terms of having a power meter, for example, or maybe whether it's, you know, looking at measuring core body temperature or whatever it might be, or lactate testing, which is now kind of exploded again in the world of, in the world of sports, certainly in the world of triathlon. You know, some of these things we just, some of the actually easiest things are some of the best things for us to optimize. So in terms of psychology, but also in terms of things like nutrition, you know, people, so many athletes that, that, that come to me are people that haven't thought about one of the easiest things that they can change in terms of optimization of performance. So I think there's so many pieces aren't there to the puzzle and we need to kind of start thinking about every single area in terms of marginal gains rather than, you know, what's the next piece of equipment that I can buy that's going to help me get. Get better?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think there's a. There's a com. I was chatting to a friend of mine that's a Ironman triathlete and also. But. But focusing predominantly on running at the moment. And she was talking about how when. I can't remember which race it was. I think it was when she did Ironman Barcelona, which is her first. She said prior to that she just, you know, nutrition was just whatever seemed to, you know, seemed to be right at the time. And then she first got that. That was the first race she actually got a nutrition strategy given to her. And she said, I don't know whether physically it made that much difference. It probably. I'm sure it did, but mentally it had a massive impact because suddenly I knew that the nutrition was. There was some sort of theory behind the nutrition and that confidence. There's a. There's a thing that I think in endure where. So I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this. When you take a gel, it takes 20 minutes for the gel to actually give you any energy physically, except if you swell it around your mouth, you basically tell your brain that sugar is en route to the stomach and it gives you. It actually is shown to give you an immediate uptick in performance, even though it takes actually 20 minutes for the energy to get there. That, that interests me. What are your.

Absolutely. I mean, and there is absolutely science behind the mouth swill effect of carbohydrate mouth rinsing. And it didn't ever really take off that much in the world of sport, but it is something actually, I still talk to my athletes about the end of an Ironman race. You know, what if you can't stomach anything? You know, if you get a gel, spill it out and spit it out, you're going to get some stimulation from it. But, you know, we've got receptors in our mouth that start breaking down carbohydrates. So. And people forget that. It doesn't just happen in the stomach. You're already breaking down with. With amylase in your mouth, you're breaking down carbohydrates. It does sense that you have carbohydrate. There so it does make sense in that sense. And it's the neural pathway effect of it a bit. It's not, it's not the same pathway as caffeine at all. But that similar effect of that caffeine is not giving you energy, it's giving you the perception of having energy. So, you know, same as the kind of the mouth swill effect is, you know, your body is already starting to recognize this carbohydrate there and already releasing amylase to start breaking it down. So, you know, it's, it's, it's really interesting, isn't it? I think that, you know, the world of psychology is. And how powerful are our, you know, our brains are? It's just, just amazing. And I think that's something that shouldn't be forgotten in, In a world that's dominated so much by, and especially in the world of sport that's dominated so much now by kind of other, other metrics and measuring and gadgets. Yeah, so. Gadgets, Absolutely. I was trying to think of the words, but yeah, gadgets.

Gadgets and things that we can spend money on, which ultimately is not the psychology stuff, is it?

No. And, and it's interesting, isn't it, because sometimes people will spend money to fix a problem, you know, spend money to make themselves faster. And this is what I always get some of my athletes to think about, you know, what are you spending your money on to make yourself faster? Because it's interesting in it, in essence.

But we all like a nice shiny thing to show for the fact that we've spent money on it, which is the battle that you have, isn't it? Because you, you know, we're, we're willing to spend a lot of money on a new bike if we think it's going to make us go faster. But actually it's like buying a really, really smart, you know, car for the drive and then putting the wrong petrol in it.

Absolutely. And, you know, if, if you're, if you're kind of spending out on a new set of wheels, for example, and, you know, you talked about something shiny. Well, actually, ultimately, if you're going out to race, you not want the shiny part being the part of standing on the podium with something shiny, you know, because ultimately that's why most of us are racing. And yet if, if that new set of wheels doesn't get you to the finish line because your nutrition fails you or your head fails you, you know, that's, it's, it's an interesting, it's not an interesting concept. It's It's a concept, you know, that, that, you know, we. We do need to start thinking about if people really want to kind of, you know, look for those. Look for those kind of little 1%, for sure. So, yeah, he. He stimulated some good conversation, for sure.

He did, he did. And the other bit I loved was just the bit that he finished with, which was as a result of Leon's question, which I really like asking these questions from the previous guests. We often get some of the best content out of the question that was asked totally randomly to a stranger, but they're just the. Connecting with where you're, you know, traveling and connecting with where you're based and kind of embracing that culture, I think is. Is really. It's really powerful. It's really good for the soul. I'm a massive believer that traveling is. Is good for the soul. And, and, and actually, I suppose that's one of the reasons why I quite like traveling on my own some of the time, because it forces you to. To embed yourself more when you've got the safety of others around you. You can kind of. You can kind of stay away from it, can't you? But no, you've got to dive straight in, feet first.

Absolutely.

If you're on your own, what do you. Do you experience? You didn't talk about that so much in the podcast, but, you know, you always travel a lot more than me for Iron man stuff. Do you tend to find that you can get yourself embedded or is it just you're just so focused on the race you just.

I think. I think it depends on how long you're there for. But, you know, you picked up on this. It certainly makes you travel to places that you probably wouldn't have picked for a holiday destination. So I really love that aspect of it, and I do actually try and have some time afterwards that I can spend in that sort of area or go off into another part of that country and do something. I think for me, like, you know, in the world of food, I love, like, that's the first question I always ask people. What's the food can be like, like, and then planning, like, what. What food can you have? What foods? You know, so that for me is always really, really exciting. But that comes with culture, doesn't it, and the history behind, you know, a lot of what we eat? You know, I always give the example of every country has got their own bread. There's some sort of starchy carbohydrate that every country has. So that's always my, like, first thing is like, what's their bread, what's their staple, what do they have? But I think, you know, absolutely. I think there's certain things you need to be a bit careful of before you're racing because as, you know, as much as going out there and doing all these things, we can tire ourselves out by going out and walking around, you know, the streets of a new city, for example, or indulging in some really nice local delicacies, which is great. But, you know, one of those things, I always save those kind of things for after I've raced. So I go and have a look around and look at all the wonderful things that I can eat, but then wait, wait till afterwards to have those things.

But that's a good, It's a good reason to make sure that you stay on for a few days afterwards because you're right in the lead up to a race. You don't want to be on your feet all day. You don't want to be trying lots of local, you know, depending on where you are. If you stay away from things like snake blood pre race, you know, that's not going to be. Not be a good time for, for playing around with stuff like that.

I wonder how much iron's in there, you know?

Yeah, I'm sure, I'm sure I only say that I was just watching an Anthony Bourdain documentary on Netflix recently and he was, yeah, he had him drinking snake's blood and I was like, oh, yeah, that must, you must have a fairly strong digestive system to be standing up to that. But, but yeah, but it is why I, I personally would always try and hang on there for a few days afterwards just to actually enjoy the place and kind of, you know, go off and explore a little bit both culturally and from a culinary perspective as well.

Yeah, no, absolutely brilliant.

Well, I, it was a really interesting chat and good to, good to link into that conversation about being rather disgruntled about what's going on with Iron man at the moment. Because that to me is a real, real shame. But we will no doub continue as we find out more if we don't already know it. Right. So good luck with your training, Claire. We've got, we're just, just saying that it's only 12 weeks until we both do Iron Man South Africa. That is frightening. So, yeah, good, good luck with that.

And for everybody, it is when you're not training at the moment, that's for sure.

Well, you can enjoy the roast, the Christmas turkey, that much more.

Exactly, exactly.

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