Giving Back Through Sport with Emma Pallant-Browne

Foreign. I'm charlie redding. And I'm laura sidall and this is the tribathlon podcast.

It just gave them so much hope and so much meaning to life that yeah, it was something that if they wanted to do really well, it just opened up such an opportunity.

That was Emma Pallant Brown and this episode is Giving back through Sport. Hey, Syd, how you doing?

I'm very well, Charlie, thank you. How are you? How are you going? I hear you might have had a return to the swimming pool this morning.

I have, yes. Do you know what first pool swim in? Well, it feels like forever and an hour in the swimming pool has never gone so quickly. Like compared to the swim spa. The time just flew by. It was like, wow, how did that hour just go so quickly?

It was because you're actually moving in a swimming pool. That is the difference. You actually feel like you're making progress rather than in a swim spa. You are staring at the bottom, not going anywhere.

You're absolutely right.

There is no referen to time in a swim spa. I would be able to cope.

I'm starting to perfect it. I'm starting to work out how to build a set in the swim spa that needs to be different to. And it's kind of. Yeah, it's all about your head. But it was absolutely brilliant to be in the pool. My coach, which is one of Matt Botterill's coach guy called Ian Dempsey, had sent me a good set because I was always used to doing swimming in a group where people knew what they were doing and I was just following them. Whereas he sent me a really, really cool set this morning and it was just, yeah, an absolute pleasure. But how's your training going?

It's good. Well, I actually had dinner with Ian Dempsey. They were here, we overlapped by a couple of days so I had dinner with him and Tim Don before they left.

You saw him there, did you? After.

So we had a bit of a chat. So that was good. Yeah, it's gone well. So I. This is my. Well by the. When we are recording this, this is like my penultimate day. I head back to Girona tomorrow morning. So all I have left the bikes packed already which is quite organized for me. Normally that's a last minute at night thing but that got packed this morning and then today I just did some, a bit of an easy swim and some mobility session and tomorrow I've just got like an early, early morning pre travel run. Yeah, it's been good. Would be nice to have some friends, I will admit. That especially sort of dealing with the island and the conditions. But yeah, it's been really nice. Just, you know, a change of scene is always good and taking on new, new terrain is always good. And it's weird when you kind of, you know, with training camps you kind of very much. You're very much in them. I'll try and describe this the best I can. So you kind of forget actually what you've done or the accumulation of work or that it's any. Maybe it's more or it's different from what you would normally do because it's just. You're literally kind of just living day to day because you haven't got any of that outside distractions of when I would be enduring. It's a very weird, weird feeling. So actually. But you don't realize what you're doing, if that makes sense. So now you know, my coach made a comment and saying about, yeah, but you've had some pretty solid big days and stuff. And I'm like, oh, have I kind of thing. Because you just. You just going through that process. But yeah, no, it's been great. The island has certainly lived up to its reputation of being windy. I will have to say that I did run. I did a fantastic running man impression the other day on the spot, going nowhere into a headwind as I was like, what the f is going on? I meant to be progressing for it was a bit like being in your swim spa. I was only seeing the rock that was next to me and I was not progressing forward. And then you turn direction and you feel like you're floating, which is. Which is pretty good. But you did get. I did get a bit sandblasted as well. Came back, felt like I'd had a. Had been to the spa and been exfoliated.

Brilliant. And what's been happening in the world of triathlon, is there anything interesting happening as races are starting?

Yeah, well, I mean, it is exciting now. We are. We do seem to be sort of getting towards a bit of a season. We had the North American 70.3 Championships in St. George a couple of weeks ago, which was super exciting. Races there pretty much foot battle between Lionel Sanders and Sam Long, which is fantastic. And then a dominant performance by Daniela Ryf on the women's side. But still great racing, by the way. In fact, Emma Pallen, we spoke our interview e today on this episode. She came third at that race. And then next week coming up, we've got Ironman Tulsa, which is again, it's the North American full Ironman championship. So, again, that's pretty, pretty exciting. But I think what was super exciting the weekend we just had was the first race back of the World Triathlon Series, formerly known as the itu, and it was the start of the Olympic qualifying year again for. For Tokyo, which is only a couple of months away now. So I think that was. It was exciting for two reasons. One, because it kind of like the mention of the Olympics again, and we're getting that bit closer. There's only two races in this qualifying period, which makes it pretty hard and very, very stressful, I think, for the athletes. And two, yeah, that was the other thing, the excitement of seeing there was so much. There was so much at stake for these athletes. Like, it's, you know, it's the one, you know, a bit like our guest in the future weeks, Ali Dixon was saying about the cycle of the Olympics and things. And, you know, for these athletes racing, they were gearing up for last year. It's been postponed for a year, which for some athletes has been a blessing because, like, some of the younger athletes coming through have had another year to get stronger, get faster. And we are now, and we now saw that at the weekend and then that's really hard as well on those athletes who would probably have been the selection choice had the Olympics been last year. So on the women's side, yeah, it was young American Taylor Knibb who won, but she has got a ridiculous caliber. Like she's been junior world record, junior world record, junior world champion, twice under 23 world champion. But her win meant she took one of the automatic qualification spots for Team USA for. For Tokyo Summer. Rappaport had got another automatic qualification spot from 2019, which means there's only sort of one spot left for the. For the women, for the Team usa, but probably two athletes that are not, you know, two athletes, one spot doesn't go. And so I just feel like as much as I. The Olympics is that pinnacle of the sport and it makes people's dreams, but it also just is brutal and, and it's going to be. I saw a tweet or a message from Tommy Zaferes, who's a photographer and, but husband of Katie Zaferes, and he just said, you know, just, it's a really pressured time at the moment for the ITU athletes with the Olympics on the horizon and selections and stuff like that, and it's going to be amazing for some people and their dreams are going to be made and it's going to be really brutal for others. So just be really conscious of what you're saying to people, what remarks you're posting on social media to comments and stuff like that. So. But yeah, it was exciting. It was ITU race or world triathlon racing. It's hopefully the Olympics is coming kind of thing and then the Paralympics and yeah, there's, there's the next race in that series I think is Leeds in a couple of weeks time, which is.

A big one for Ali Brownlee, isn't it? That's where he's racing, I think.

Yeah, I don't know yet. On the men's side, I think the, the highest on the men's side it was won by Norweg and gosh, my. His name's gone blank and I should know because he's a deboer athlete as well. But our British highest ranks was Alex Yee who came fourth. So that was, that was a good work from him I think. Johnny Brownlee was racing but yeah, Alistair is racing in. Kristen Blumenfelt won. I should have known that. But Alistair is racing in Leeds. So the. So on the women's side, sorry, going a bit down the triathlon talk. The women's side, the team's already been selected. So Georgia Taylor Brown, Jess Learmouth and Vicky Holland. So none of those three athletes raced in Yokohama this past weekend. But on the men's side only Johnny Brownlee has currently been selected. But at the moment as well we only have one other spot for the men's team. Whereas normally Britain would consider themselves having three spots per men and three for women. So we had the three per women. At the moment we've only got two on the men's side. So the male British athletes are trying to now race and get enough points to give us that third, third spot that we would normally have.

Oh, I see. That's how it works, is it? Right, because I know that there was, there's. Because there was. There's talk that Tom Bishop was going to have a spot, wasn't there?

So. And well, so this is, this is the thing with the. You if you. So Tom Bishop I've heard is racing lots of races to get enough points to get Britain that final spot. It doesn't guarantee that he, whilst he collects the sport the points to get the spot that he is the athletes that is then selected.

I see. God, that'd be harsh, wouldn't it?

Yeah, totally. But this is selection and this is a policy. So you know, you look at like when we, when you interviewed Tim Don and he was talking about, I think it was the London Olympics and actually his ranking was higher but they picked someone else because of the way they wanted the dynamics to work and that's. So it's pretty brutal from that respect as well. So at the moment though, Britain only have two spots. Johnny Brownlee's got one already pre selected. The other spot is, hasn't been confirmed yet. They are trying to get a third spot but there is then there is no sort of guarantee on who gets that spot. And it doesn't have to be the person who got the points for the spot either.

Well, let's just keep our fingers crossed that we do get Olympics, we get to see some great racing and that will be an amazing highlight for this year. But you're absolutely right, you know, for some people have kind of built up. They were just, you know, peaking in 2020, this year is going to be a year too late. But then for other people the timing could be perfect, couldn't it? So in the same way that, you know, next week's, next week's interview with Ali Dixon had with her Olympic ones. Anyway, so we're now going to dive into the interview with the amazing Emma Pallant Brown. And don't forget, this episode is brought to you by Precision Hydration. So check out the show notes for a discount code. Emma Pallen Brown already has a hugely impressive sporting CV, being the European under 23 cross country champion, a world class middle distance runner, world titles in aquathon and duathlon, runner up at the 70.3 World Championships in 2017 and a stack of 70.3 wins. All pretty impressive stuff for somebody whose running career was ended as a result of a knee injury. So Sid and I wanted to chat to her about the benefits of cross training, about cracking the nutrition and the hydration challenges of the long course, about being mentored by Dame Kelly Holmes, what must have been an incredible start to her sporting career and also perhaps most importantly, giving back to the community through sport. I know you're going to really enjoy this insightful and wonderful chat with Emma Pallant Brown. So Emma, welcome to the Triad Athlon podcast. Sid, great to have you back. So do you want to kick things off by, for those people that don't know much about you, do you want to tell us a bit about your story? You know, how do you initially get into running, how do you get into triathlon and what have been the successes along the way?

Yeah, so I think I was always a super sporty kid, just loved to burn energy. I kind of my mum pretty early on realized that I Was a lot better behaved at school if I did some kind of activity every day. So yeah, pretty much did every sports team going, played a lot of football in the boys teams and yeah, just love being active and not sitting still. So yeah, I kind of, I think it was probably if I did it in school years, it would be year three or year four where yeah, my run coach, I went down to a run club and um, he was like, yeah, you could, you could be okay at this sport, but you just gotta like focus on this sport um, if you want to be really good. So yeah, that was kind of all I needed. Focused on running, um, and really came to triathlon having been an injured runner and just cross training, just swimming and biking and really wanted that like race motivation to be like, okay, at the end of this I'm going to do a race like this all has a purpose to it.

I'm going to stop you there because you have very much glanced over your running pedigree. When you said, yeah, I came into triathlon as an injured runner. You were a very accomplished runner. 1500 meters, was that your kind of your, your distance?

Yeah, I think that was the one that I liked the most. Yeah, the, the middle distance. And the thing is, the older you got, the more it became. It kind of came into a tactical race. So it was be like a paced kind of 1200 and then an all out kick sprin finish. And I was kind of more a 1505k runner than a 15,8k 800 runner. So yeah, decided to step up a little bit as well.

So let's just Clarify. So under 23 European Cross country champion, is that right?

Yes.

Junior world championship bronze medalist in the 1500s. And twice you got the qualifying time for the olympics in the 1500, is that right for athletes? No. Beijing and London. Yeah. So yeah, so just an average runner. We'll put that there.

So actually, so before we come onto triathlon then, what, what was the highlight of all of those achievements in the running world?

I think the two that were probably so the, the bronze for the world juniors. The, the bronze 1500 because it also kind of served as a qualifier for Beijing Olympics. So there was one spot left and my best friend was also ra. Yeah, if we got a medal we could go to Beijing, but she actually won the race so she got that slot. But I think it was just that, yeah, it was such a massive event and we kind of felt like we nailed it and we trained together up to it and from a teamwork point of view kind of I'd say that was the best. And then from kind of my own sense of achievement, I think the under 23 European cross country, because. Yeah, just having your national anthem, seeing your flag up there and it is off the back of having a really kind of injury. Like that year I had probably done my least amount of running and it just been cross training. Cross training. So, yeah, it was a little bit emotional how.

How far is the cross country at that? Under 23 or for the European champs.

So I think it was just under 5k.

Yeah. Okay. So similar conversion from the track.

Yeah.

And as you were growing up, you were part of. You had it in very. One of my heroes as a mentor. Mentor, can't speak. Kelly Holmes. And was part of kind of. She set up a program, didn't she, where she identified that five or six sort of female, young, up and coming runners. And you were part of that. Tell us a little bit more about that experience.

Yeah, so she had this mentoring ski. So it was off the back of her double gold and was just like. Yeah, she had all these thing like opportunities come up and she thought, do you know what? Like, I never had this as a young person and I want to put some of this into the next generation. So, yeah, took some of those opportunities and pooled some funds together and started this mentoring scheme and started with about five or six to begin with. And then I think in the end there was probably about 20 of us. Yeah. So there was a lot. And not all of us did everything, but it went to. So when I didn't make the Commonwealth, so I again, I ran the time for the Commonwealth in Delhi and then, yeah, injured. So I didn't do the trial race. And she took us out there just to experience it. So we got like the accreditation. We had all the. It was kind of trying to bridge that gap between being a junior and actually making it as a senior because that under 23 kind of middle phase was still very much like a junior. And she was just helping us, especially through those uni times. Like things like we'd go on a cooking course, like how to eat healthy at uni and not spend loads of money. And like, she's so practical. I think maybe from the army. She like. Yeah, just knew what you need as a young girl kind of trying to make it in the world of elite sport.

And if I'm right, it was kind of three. And this is a bit, I find quite interesting. It was actually through Kelly Holmes suggested you give triathlon a go. Sort of having had various. Which I find amazing because Kelly Holmes is scared shitless of water, from what I understand. And we'll never do a triathlon, even though we've been trying to get her to do one. But she won't like the swimming. She's got a bike, she's runs, it's just like perfect. But, yeah, it was her suggestion, wasn't it?

Yeah. So she'd actually come to the London trial race and yeah, had watched me kind of warming up, had, like watched the race and then came and found me. So I stepped off the track, like halfway through the race. I was just like, what am I doing? Like, my knee was so painful, I was trying to push myself and all I could think about was just trying to take my weight evenly and I just thought, what am I doing? And I just walked off the track. I went and hid in a, in a corner in the cool down area. And yeah, she just came to me and she. I think as well, mentally it's really hard. Like your mom and your family, everyone can be like, say the right things and really try and like, hug you and tell you it's fine. But I felt like she really understood just mentally where I was because, like, I just saw black. Like, I didn't see any way out of this. I, Yeah, I didn't know what to do because I'd hammered my knee and it got to the point where I couldn't even walk properly and I just really didn't know what to do. And I kind of, rather than her just be like, oh, just take a rest, like refocus, go on holiday, like, just relax, do something else. She was like, okay, I know you love to push yourself. Like, why don't you push yourself in your cross training? And I've got a charity spot at London Triathlon in, like, that gives you a couple of months. And yeah, maybe if you do the run, great. If not, do the swim, bike and just have fun, even if you walk the run. So, yeah, that's kind of where it began.

And did you think at the time that this was going to be pointless because you wouldn't be able to run, or did you kind of think that you could do the running with the cross training?

Yeah, no, I always, I always kind of felt that I, as long as I kept myself fit, I could always run. Like, I could go six, seven weeks without running. But as long as I was fit, I felt like I could put together kind of a good run. And yeah, running, I just feel like I feel at ease as, as long as there's no injury. I kind of feel like, yeah, I could run anywhere, anytime.

I mean it is probably. She's probably a good person because she, Kelly Holmes had so many injuries in her career and then kind of always came back. So when you say that, yeah, your family is very supportive from one angle and they will always want to hug you and stuff, but she probably could see and knew what you were going through and into that. And I'm. And we're jumping ahead a bit now, but I'm fascinated. Like, say you struggled with so many injuries as a runner, yet touch wood now in triathlon you're pretty resilient and I'm not aware that you've had any huge injuries around running or anything from that aspect.

Yeah, I think, yeah, I feel massively different as an athlete compared to what I was as a runner. And just mentally like I. Being more relaxed, being able to go for longer periods of time if I feel like the slightest niggle to be able to go for longer periods of time without running and not worrying about it at all because I feel like I've got so much work to do on the swim and bike. I think from that mental point of view and also just things as a young runner like diet and pushing through things. Yeah, mentally I changed a lot to kind of. Yeah. As a, from a runner to a triathlete, I just, I'd say I eat totally different.

That sounds like we need to. Well, no, let's explore it now. So why, why are you eating differently?

What.

Give us some examples.

I think as a runner I, I felt like. So I was never the smallest, I could put on muscle quite easily and I always thought I have a big quads for a runner. Whereas looking at the triathlete girls I thought, oh, I have more of a triathlete body. So I kind of accepted my body in triathlon. But as a runner I was always doing things to be. Just to try and stay like less muscular, so leaner. And I went on these crazy diets. Like I was all about low fat. I'd eat low fat yogurt as my protein, I'd eat pitta bread as my carb and I'd live all like 10 days in a row of that, like very, very unhealthy.

Was that, was that through guidance from the setup or is that just in your head kind of what you thought you had to do?

Yeah, I think just there was. So I was living in a halls with a lot of other athletes and I think we were all very much. Yeah. Looking at what each other were eating and I just went through a trial of one week of this and I dropped a lot of we. And then I thought, oh, I've got to keep doing this. And hence why I kept breaking down, getting like. Someone could sneeze in our corridor and I'd be the first to get it. Someone? Yeah, I'd get niggles and I just wasn't recovering from my running sessions.

And so. So how would that look now with. What's your. What's your diet look like now? Or is you just eat whatever you want?

Yeah, pretty much fries all the time.

Yeah, it's all about meat. Yeah. No, now I honestly, like, I'm very conscious about what. What I do eat, not what I don't eat. I kind of just try and make sure that I get all my good nutrients, I have a good balance. And there's things like your fruit and veg and red meat and things that I'll make sure I definitely get in. But I'm not too worried about cutting things out.

I know in South Africa, it's a very different story, isn't it? In South Africa, they class chicken as a vegetable, don't they?

Yeah. As a side.

So how. What have you been. What have been your highlights since coming into the triathlon world? What are the kind of those magic moments that have happened so far?

Yeah, I think so. First of all, I just love the atmosphere. So the fact that you were going down, racking your bike and there's so many people, you're all in the same race, like all types of people from all walks of life and you're all in this one race together. Whereas I was very much used to walking onto a track with. Yeah. And a big, like, stadium, normally at nighttime and everyone was just watching you. It's very, like, the crowd felt very separate to the race. Um, and, yeah, in triathlon, it just felt like you were out there, you were amongst it and there's so many different places and you'd actually see them, like, on your bike. You weren't just flying into a hotel, going from a hotel to a track, back to a hotel, flying out. Um, and those experiences to begin with were. Yeah, it was kind of enjoying it quite a lot. Um, yeah, I'd say, race wise, I think. Well, duathlon really helped me just because I was still really struggling with that swim and in that transition, it was kind of that pickup races, like, that success, that prize money that kept me going and it was able to, like, make me a bit more patient in the swimming to. Yeah, keep going. On the triathlon.

So let's again being very modest here. Two times world duathlon champion. Is that right? 2015, 2016 and then world Aquathon champion. And was that kind of still kind of when you were more focused as in you relatively new into the sport, working with Michelle Dillon, but kind of still in that ITU aspect or had you already. I can't quite remember now like if you'd already started verging into or moving into the longer course. Yeah.

So for the first two Athens I was still, yeah, giving it a go on the short course. And yeah, that's where it really helps kind of non funding and I was, I carried across a couple of my running sponsors but yeah, was still very much not getting the results that warranted big support in triathlon.

And talk to me about the Aquathon because it seems to me that with Aquaphor, firstly, tell for those people that haven't heard of Aquathon because not everyone will have heard of it. It tell us about that and then tell us why you were doing Aquasolt because it seems like you're missing out, maybe your strongest element.

I always think of Aquaman when someone says Aquathon. I don't know why, I just like have visions of. But it isn't that. Yeah.

So Aquathlon or Aquathon? Yeah, Aquathon is swim run. And so it was actually I see my first long course worlds in Chattanooga and the world you Athlon was in Canada two weeks before. So we kind of thought get a good workout, kind of train quite hard into that multi sport championship, do a couple of races. So the Equathlon and the duathlon and then yeah, get, get a nice kind of be on the time zone, be in the right side side of the world and really prep for Chattanooga. So yeah, it was definitely there to help my swim and I didn't have the greatest swim. I, I think I came, I can't remember. I just remember being minutes off the front and then just ran as hard as I could. And yeah, it was a nice way to do it.

So with a Kathlon or Aquathon, whatever we want to call it, that's just swim to run. But a duathlon is run bike run. Is that right?

Yeah, I thought there was some Aquathons or however we call them that were Swim bike.

That's Aqua bike.

Oh, Aqua Bike. That's it, yes.

Which I also think when someone says they're doing an Aquabike, which did become quite popular a couple of years ago, I think of like those massive pedalos in the, like at the beach with those big fat wheels. And I'm thinking someone's doing an Aquabite. They're like, on these, like, like pedal things. Massive fat tires. Not that at all, but. Yeah, but. Well, that obviously kind of set you up pretty well because you then went on and came second at the 70.3 World Championships just that couple of weeks later. That's right, wasn't it? And. Which was kind of like you've had. You'd had some podiums and you'd had some wins by that stage over the 70.3, but that kind of probably really catapulted you, I think, into the limelight on. On the middle distance, would you say?

Yeah, definitely. And I think it was that kind of. It was my first world. I didn't feel a lot of pressure. I felt like I kind of went under the radar a little bit. I was like, ranked, I think, like 13th or something coming in. And I just. It always was hanging on my swim. I knew if I had a good swim, especially with the course, the course kind of suited me because it had a little bit of a flat bit and then it went up this big hill. So, yeah, I kind of broke down the swim packs and I managed to bike up to the lead group and, yeah, found myself in a position that I rarely was in triathlon at that time.

Fantastic. And so what are the top results you've had since. Because you've had a win recently, I think, haven't you?

Yeah, I won in Florida maybe three or four weeks ago. Yeah.

And then. Well, I mean, how many? How many? I was trying to find it actually on the web last night, and I actually. I was disappointed in myself that I didn't know how many 70.3 or middle distance wins you've had in your career. I did. Did remember that you are probably one of the only female athletes that's beaten Daniela Ryf and Lucy Charles in the same race. I think that was in. Was it Majorca or something? Or Gran Canaria one year in challenge. Yeah, but I do know you did. Yeah, you came over to. Obviously came over. Went over to the States a couple of weeks ago, totally smashed the field at 70.3 Florida, and then came third at St. George, which was what, a week ago, two weeks ago now, which was the North America Championships. And that must have been another pretty, pretty significant boost.

Yeah, definitely. I think, to be honest, that's probably one of my more significant results just because of the way it was raced. Like, I feel like, not everything like before. My success in big races has come because the races, like, it's more gone my way. I kind of. I have relied a lot on other people playing apart and racing the race rather than racing my race. And, yeah, I've had a totally new outlook this year, a new coach, and we went in with my own game plan and just racing my race. And, like, I felt more in control of a race than I've ever been before. Like, I don't know, I wasn't watching other people. I was just focusing on what I was doing. And, yeah, it was really refreshing, but very different. A really different race.

Well, you. I mean, you biked off the front of a chase pack and sort of through the field on the bike. And I guess St. George is a course that suits you, like you said, with the hills and stuff, which then put you in a good position for the run and yourself and Jeannie Seymour, like, shot out. I mean, yeah, Daniela Ryf was first into transition, but you guys came in and absolutely, you know, shot out of T2. No fear about her being up the road, just. Just on a mission to chase her down.

Yeah. And I think it was quite exciting. It was like one of those just really gritty courses, but it had the uphills without the technical descent. So again, I kind of felt a bit more confident with it and just biked. Yeah. Rather than trying to be tactical on the bike, I felt like, yeah, I just. I just biked and actually really enjoyed the bike leg.

I know. I know from listening to other podcasts, you have. You've had some crashes on descents, haven't you? And you've kind of struggled. Struggled with them. But. And so you find yourself now not descending as quickly as I think maybe. Maybe other cyclists. What a. Tell us a bit about that. But more so, what strategies have you employed to. Or are you being. Or are you trying to employ to get you better at descending?

Yeah, so I think the.

I had some crashes. Yeah. Which I didn't really. I kind of got on the bike and I was. I was fine after. And then the one in Lanzarote, I fainted going downhill, which, sorry, jumping.

In which descent was it? Because I want to make sure I'm out there now.

Not the Tabiasco, the one next to.

It with the beautiful view. Yeah.

And I just. I. I don't know, afterwards, I. And not meant, like, I wasn't thinking about it. I wasn't. I just feel like subconsciously I was.

My.

Like, I just didn't want to go Fast. I didn't want to go fast downhill. Um, and especially if there were turns and things. I kind of. I don't know, I felt like. Like I was just gripping onto my handlebars and, and just slowing everything down. Um, and so before. Nice. We actually went in, out there just to keep on practicing the descent. And we kept practicing, practicing and I still. It got to the race and there was just a speed that I didn't want to go. There were girls like coming past and yeah, I just, I couldn't let myself off the brakes. And after that, Jared was like, okay, we're getting you an off road bike. And we started doing more off road. Just thinking, okay, there's no cars. And just to be good on the handling and to. I think that helped. Like in. It was. Yeah, the downhills, I started to descend a little bit better. And we've kind of kept with that. We kind of kept with. If there's a place we're going that has technical descents, I'll just like trying to keep the gap to Jared and more like follow him down and focus on him rather than the descent.

And do you think that off road training is helping you in other areas as well as descending?

Yeah, I think it's nice to get that continuity of just.

Yeah.

Being able to ride. And I find that my cadence is a lot higher off road. And so your fitness. Yeah, can shoot up quite nicely.

And is that something. So you're in South Africa at the moment. For those people that haven't quite worked this out, the fact that you're an English girl with a pretty strong South African accent now is. So tell us why you're in South Africa.

Are you opening the door that we can take the piss out of? Her accent and her yards. We should have had a counter, like going. Yeah. But then I can't speak either, really, for my.

I love the South African accent, so it's perfectly cool with me.

But.

So what I want to know is, well, tell us why you're in South Africa. But also I'd be intrigued to know whether the off road cycling is more prominent in South Africa than the road stuff.

Yeah. So I've married a South. Oh, there's another yacht. Married a South African and he does a lot of off road riding. And. But I did find that. So everyone was like, when we were in lockdown, I was told to get a gravel bike as my off road bike because graveling is like such a thing. And there's gravel races that will open up before anything else. So we Just wanted to race. So I got a gravel bike and the, it's not like American graveling here is like, their idea of graveling is like rocks and yeah, it was a little bit too much for me. Um, I did one off road, road race, a gravel race race to the sun. And yeah, had a bit of a crash and I came third, but I didn't, I was like, never ever again. Just after the four. Like it's such a silly thing, but I just thought, yeah, it's a bit dangerous for me, but I've seen the graveling in America and that, that kind of appeals to me. But it is, it's off road riding is big here. People love their mountain biking.

And do I remember, is it the Cape Epic. That is, is that a big, that's, that's off road as well, isn't it?

I think, yeah, yeah, that's huge. And that is super technical.

And do you, are you fancying that or is that kind of. No chance.

Never ever. Jared. Jared's like well into his mountain bike racing now. He's kind of racing pretty much every other weekend and I'm sure he'll do it one day so I'll be chief supporter.

He won't rope you in to do it as like a pair. You'll be like, no, I'm on the support line. What.

Are there any other things in South Africa that you particularly want to do? I, I remember when driving, when you drive that coast road out of Cape Town, sort of that to me, I, I drove it thinking I'd love to be on a bike. Now that just would be amazing. And I believe there is some, some Cape cycling events, isn't there? So are there any particular events in South Africa that you've, you've got your eye on?

Yeah.

So two years ago I did the Cape Cycle Tour. Um, and yeah, it was two guys. Um, or maybe even last year it was literally just before lockdown. Um, it was the last race that was on. And yeah, it's just after we got engaged and we were having a great time out in Cape Town and we found a 10k run race. Um, and I would recommend that race to anyone because, yeah, it was really good fun and I got a, I got away on a couple of times. I got a little breakaway and just to see the views like you just like up these hills and these climbs and on these totally shut down roads. So it's all like, it's just such a massive event and yeah, you really see things that you probably wouldn't at another Time. But the big one is probably Comrades marathon. I really want to do that.

I mean, I've asked this, I think before. Would you go up or down or both ways and do it for two years?

I think I'd have to do both. I think, yeah. The downhill I definitely take longer to recover from. I think.

I know you say. I think. I can't remember who we've mentioned it before, maybe with Krista Cullen. But the downhill it sounds, the easier. But we all know how much, like, it just stings your quads. And when you say downhill, it's slight net loss. But there's still a lot of uphill, isn't there? From what I remember and stuff. Yeah.

Yeah.

And while we're on the subject, South Africa, Sid and I are both big rugby fans. Who are you going to be cheering for in the lion with the Lions tour now? The British and Irish Lions or all South Africa?

Yeah, of course. I'm British all the way. I kind of. It's a nice rivalry. I was here for the World Cup.

It was at the end, wasn't it? Was it the end of the World cup when we raced in Cape. At challenge? Cape Town and South Africa had just won and they had the street parade through Cape Town and Jared made us go out and I think, like, I think we were both. Yes. Obviously both had wanted England to win, but the effect it had had on South Africa, South Africa taking that win and just that buzz of the street party and seeing the crowds and the buses come through, that was pretty amazing.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're a strong second favorite.

Well, I really like that. I was actually planning on doing the Lions tour and trying to cycle between the tests, which I think is about a thousand miles. Some South African friends I've got tried to talk me out of it. They said, I'm not sure it'll be the safest. You know, the. The roads that you'll be on will not be particularly good, but it just sounded like such a good idea to me.

I'd be more impressed that you get a Leeds pass for that.

I might not have made all three.

Tests, but sticking with South Africa, tell us, because you've now kind of pretty much set yourself up there and with Jared as well, you've started well. There's a couple of things I want to talk about. One, peak coaching, which is performance, endurance and knowledge. And you. Yeah. And you've kind of created quite a community, it appears there, and quite a good coaching business. And then also I want to touch on, like, the running. Running group you've created with the orphanage. But maybe talk about peak coaching first and that kind of setup.

Yeah, I think it's one of those things of. Jarrad kind of felt that he was quite fortunate as a young triathlete being able to go out to Boulder for quite a few and train and learn with the best. And he's one of those people, he would talk to everyone. If he wants to know something, he'll sit down, he'll chat. And he then kind of thought, well, here, like there was a lot that. Yeah, there's a lot of kind of old school coaching. And he felt that, yeah, he just start something here. A different approach using training peaks. And from the knowledge that he has from his mentors and his coaches, just kind of trying to have some family kind of fun way of training with a little bit of like the knowledge that he'd got from overseas. And it was kind of something quite small and quite. Yeah, there was. It was like a strong group of like lots of friends and he was always traveling, so it was never kind of a massive coaching group. And then when lockdown happened, we kind of. Yeah, just started training online, trying to offer people a little bit more kind of when they were stuck in their homes. And then, yeah, creating stuff like Zwift meetups and things. And as soon as we were allowed out, we kind of created a few time trials and just events to like get people back together. And yeah, it's kind of growing from that. So it's still just something quite fun. And yeah, just trying to. Just trying to have the fun part of triathlon, but with a bit of knowledge kind of based behind it and a bit of performance driven.

But part of that you've got is called Kickstarter. Is that right? Which is kind of supporting younger athletes through the. Through the process. Is that right? Yeah.

So very similar to kind of what I had. Yeah. With Kelly when I was growing up. We kind of sat down and we talked about how do you bridge that? Again, it's that tough part where people may be leaving home for the first time and going to uni or they're kind of a lot of their friends are not doing sport. Like found a bit of a nightlife and not doing as much sport. And if you kind of feel on that isolated kind of as well in age gaps between the junior and the senior. Is there a niche out there that we can say, okay, we will have a mentor in the team, Jared and one of the other guys, and they can kind of. Yeah, just be there for the Athletes and pull some of Jared's contacts in to sponsor and just make that team because as well mountain biking we wanted to trial it with just because it is that little bit harder to get around the country and to find sponsors. There's kind of a big. It starts a massive field of juniors and then you get a really big drop off kind of to the seniors and then you get people taking it up when they're older. So it's kind of been Jared's baby of yeah, just trying to help people maybe through that. And if people are super talented and start moving up the ranks then yeah, maybe there can be that support where they can then go and find the competition overseas. Because yeah, internationally is obviously where then you can make it kind of standing alone.

Fantastic. And do you want to lead that into the orphanage running club as well? Tell us a bit about that.

Yeah.

So then the peak development was kind of. It's been my idea. It's something that, yeah, I've always wanted to do when, yeah, I kind of, I thought I'd be a bit older maybe when I started it, but having moved across here I kind of, yeah, felt that there was already a gap because we did some training in Kenya and when we were out there we got to go into the schools and we got to do a lot with kind of the younger athletes and just see how they thrived off that older guys that have come before them that turned into world champions. And I don't know, it just gave them so much hope and so much meaning to life that yeah, it was something that if they wanted to do really well, it just opened up such an opportunity and I kind of felt that here, Yeah, And helping them a little bit from a performance driven place is that they'd have the support there to go. So we've started in an orphanage and now also teamed up with some guys down in Durban for some younger kids. And it's just started off as kit and basically getting them talking to the teachers and organizing how they can because as well we want it to be very much led like giving more opportunities for other people to run it. That it's something that can be self sustainable and we can branch out to a couple of places and then get into, into into competitions and things. But the struggle at the minute is there's been no running races but yeah. Since lockdown. So you're kind of telling these kids, which isn't a bad thing because at first we want them to enjoy it and we want them to do it as part of like a way of life and have fun and games kind of incorporated into that. But then you get the older ones who are starting to. Yeah. Want to do something with it. So that's the. That's the struggle at the moment.

I think it's such a fantastic thing, though. I remember being at a conference in the US and a lady whose name escapes me had set up a charity which is essentially a running club for homeless people. And it had. I mean, it's now a huge charity across the us, but it had such a transformative effect on them. I think that's absolutely fantastic. And, yeah, anything we can do to support that, please do let us know.

Thank you so much. Thank you.

I look forward to hearing more about that. Tell me a bit about.

I know you've tried. You've had.

You've dabbled on the long course, haven't you?

How.

How's that gone? And why hasn't it gone quite according to plan, do you think?

Yeah, so the. The long course, I kind of. So I went into it after Chattanooga, so I had. It was at the time where the half distance still could contribute to Kona points. And, yeah, I thought, like, now is a good time just to give it a go. The first one really didn't go well. I pulled my car and I just was like, no way. I haven't done all this training and not to complete one. So then I set my eyes on the next one and, yeah, again, didn't go well. I almost didn't make it to the finish line. And I think there's, yeah, a lot of elements of my training and my nutrition, and I trained so hard for Kona, but I. Yeah, it was. It was not to be. I kind of, yeah, fainted in the second transition.

I think I stepped over you. Sorry? I think I stepped over you when you were on the floor in transition. Not quite, but I think we're in there at the. Say I came in after you because you were clearly ahead of me at that point. And I think I remember going, oh, Emma doesn't look too good at the moment.

It wasn't an elbow to the head.

No, definitely not elbow. If I had more energy, I would have probably. Well, I think you had help at that. You had people surrounding you at that point. Yeah.

So why do you think that hasn't gone very well for you so far?

I think so. I'm a very heavy sweater and, yeah, I find my nutrition is. Is still something that I'm working on and. Yeah, things. Things. It is a bit of a puzzle, but I I think I'm, I'm getting better there. But I think as well I was trying to do everything. I was trying to race hard at 70.3 and trying to incorporate the Ironman as like just like a side thing of, yeah, let's do this off 70.3 and still race a lot. And still, yeah, I just couldn't say no to things. I was doing all kinds of races and a lot of races and I think, yeah, as an Ironman athlete, if you're going to do it really well, I think sometimes you, you have to focus on that race and what have you done?

And you mentioned two things there, sweating and nutrition. What have you done to try and counteract those two issues?

Yeah, so I think just being a lot more so for example in Florida. Florida is a race that last year I wouldn't have finished no ways. Like I was already 5k into that bike. It was just really thick, really humid and I was, yeah, sweaty. I thought, oh no, I'm, I'm in for a tough day. And whereas on the run I would normally just go, go until I blow and, and this time I felt myself going and I was like, okay, it doesn't matter how, just forget your run split. Doesn't matter how, how slow, how many people pass you. You have to finish this race, start walking the aid stations. And it's something that, yeah, I've never, I don't know, I've never been confident enough to do before and I just thought, yeah, you just gotta be smart here. And I had Tim and Jared both screaming at me to, yeah, three people telling me to walk them and I was like, okay, I'll give this a go. And. And it paid off like really big time.

And you work with precision hydration on that sort of thing. So they helped support you around like kind of understanding more about, yeah, the sweating and then what you need to take as fluid and stuff.

Yeah, massively. I think that's another big one of the fact that I can't get that much liquid in. Then it's a case of I'm not massively salty with my sweat, but I have to preload on the salt because yeah, otherwise the liquid that I was taking in, if it's too salty, then I wasn't getting enough fluid with it. And then if there was, if it was just water, then the opposite, I was flushing everything out. So I, I now pre hydrate kind of the day before, like on a lot of salts. So like 1500 in each bottle. And then on race day I'll just be on 500 and that seems to be. Yeah, get the good balance.

That's interesting, isn't it? I know we took. We interviewed Andy and they're our podcast sponsor, so we kind of talked a bit about that, but I hadn't sort of heard about using the 1500 and the 500 at complete extremes like that. So that's quite an interesting strategy. What about on the nutrition side? Was it. Is it GI problems? Is it kind of what issues have you had there and how are you trying to correct them?

Yeah, again, I think this comes a lot from being. When I was a runner and not having the best diet. I kind of, yeah, made my gut very susceptible to certain foods and very intolerant to certain things. And so two days out from a race, I will try and go super low fiber, which, yeah, has really helped. Um, but, yeah, still, even at St. George, like, I had issues. I got off the bike and I was like, oh, no, my stomach does not feel good. Um, and then it's looking back, it's it. So I'll know everything that I've eaten leading into the race, and it'll be like, ah, okay. I had that clif bar maybe kind of the. The afternoon before, looking at the fiber content of that. And, yeah, it's been really reading into things and then cutting out anything that I think that it might be and then trialing it and the next thing. Because I think your gut reacts really differently to that intensity for that amount of time. It's not something you can train all the time in training because you're not always doing four and a half hours, like, pretty solid work.

And do you find that your. That gels, sort of traditional gels are a problem, or are they kind of actually a good solution for you?

Yeah, I've actually found that a gel before the swim is good. And then I take more solids on the bike. Solids and then the carb drink with my precision hydration. And then on the run, I go back to gels.

And any particular ones that you've. You've kind of warmed to?

I think on the run, I've been using goud because, yeah, they're that little bit more solid and they're easy to hold. They're smaller.

Yeah.

Practical reason, season with.

With the progression you've made, then, like, you know, like you said in Florida this year at the 70.3, if that was a year earlier, you probably wouldn't have kind of finished. There's a bit of a. And take this in the right way, like, maturity of Learning of how your body reacts and then that's it. Having the confidence in your run that yes, I'm okay to walk the aid station still and I'm still going to kind of get to the finish line. You also mentioned as well, and I think since maybe the back end of last year, you've changed coaching setup, you're now working with Tim Don, are we going to see a move back up to the full distance in the coming years from Emma. I was going to say Emma Pallant, but you're Pallant Brown now, aren't you? Or are you going to kind of stick over that 70.3 because you love it and you're just crushing it and that sort of thing?

Yeah, I think I still have a couple years left that I want to really just dedicate to 70.3 and see where I can get and how far I can get. But I have a feeling that, yeah, in kind of three years from now there might be the bug kind of on the shoulder that starts to want to go to the long stuff.

And what have you, like you've been with Tim now for the, what, for six months or so? I guess maybe, maybe a bit longer. He's obviously got incredible experience and stuff and we almost see in the racing almost like a new, a new Emma coming through. What kind of are some of the things that has. Has it been different or changed or what have you picked up and learned so far already?

Yeah, I think like I've changed so much. So when I first started with Tim, I was looking at the training and thinking, okay, like, I'm not sure Tim knows me because this, like, I train a lot more than this. I can take a lot more. Like, I don't know, like, I really wasn't. The first couple of weeks he was like, just, just give me a couple more. Like, trust it. And I'm like, oh, getting itchy, like wanting to do a lot more. Um, just not knowing what, like suddenly I had time in the day. I'm like, I'm, I'm normally training all day. I don't dunno what I'm doing with this. And it was that thing of, okay, this training isn't easier because as the weeks progressed and, and the actual sessions are harder than I'd ever gone before. And yeah, the time was less, I was training less, but the training was that much harder. And I think, yeah, I just found a new level of kind of pushing myself without training all day and being confident to then rest after a really hard session. And yeah, it Looks totally different. The training is totally different to what I was doing. And then as well just the, the whole thing of aerodynamics. We kind of, we really worked on that with Specialized as well. It was kind of. Yeah. With the Tim and Specialized not just having a good position but then also training it in to be able to run off it. And it was bringing the power down to begin with and then building it up in that position which. Yeah, all stuff that you kind of, it's. It takes a lot of trust and confidence in someone to follow the plan. But I was seeing it pay off and yeah, I kind of trusted in the process and it's definitely very different to what I was doing. But I'm feeling good off it.

Brilliant. And you're a trained physio on you. Is that. I'm all right in saying that.

Yes, I am.

How does that, you know, has that helped you in preventing injury going forward? Is it a help or hindrance?

Yeah, I think initially especially when I was a runner, it was a massive hindrance because I would always, yeah, whatever it was, if I had knee pain I would just tell myself it was yeah, a little bit of quad tightness. I could just massage it and then be fun. And I'd always go with my patients, I always go, okay, careful, it's the worst case scenario. And with myself it was best case scenario. Crack on and yeah, block it out. Whereas I think now especially as I look more into the efficiency side of things and the era like I, I like pulling back the, the body mechanics side of things and like using it to also, I don't know, cues for swimming and thinking about each muscles and just really looking deeply into things. I think it, it's helpful having that little bit of, of anatomy kind of.

Background and there's training with Tim helped with that at all because I know, I remember him saying in the interview on this podcast that the slightest niggle, the slightest feel he'd be, he'd stop the training. Have you kind of. Is that or because you're injury free in triathlon? Has it not really come up?

Yeah, I think Tim and Jared and myself like we're at polar opposites. We're kind of the opposite end of the scale and it's been that real good kind of coming in of. Yeah. If I mention something Jar is like, okay, this is serious. Like this is really bad because she's mentioned it and it's getting more confident in opening up to. Yeah, if there is a slight, slight niggle, then yeah, the program has to be changed and, and I think as well the more last year I was doing a lot of stuff on my own and coaching myself and when that control is taken away from you, it's, it's easier to have someone else tell you rather than be second guessing yourself. And yeah, I kind of, I think that's a lot more helpful.

But, but it is hard to open up around, you know, if you do a run or something and you do have that little niggle and you're like, you know, maybe a few years ago you'd probably just push through and it's kind of like being more aware of, of is it just a niggle, is it a tightness and it's going to go away or is it something that I should pull back and I should tell my coach or tell Jared or whatever. And that's quite a hard balance to get. And I think we probably. Or I'm going to say this. When you're younger you just kind of push through because you're like I'm invincible and everything like that. And then, and you're not as old yet. You still. Well, a lot of years ahead, but I think it's then kind of learning and understanding your body and going back to you being a physio actually. And I think I've seen you've said this, so I think for Brits going to see the physio is like the worst, it's the last case, it's the end of the chain. It's like when you're injured, you're trying to rehab and it's got that perception, whereas I found when I was in the US that actually they go to the physios or they call them pts like on a weekly basis for more prevention and performance. So it's kind of a, there's that mindset there of I think we probably think of like that injury you kind of plow through. But actually if you've got that niggle it's like, oh, actually tell my physio or tell my PT or get that massaged out and tell the coach and then be proactive before it gets worse.

Yeah. And I think also that maintenance thing of now that I'm not training like the eight hour day every day that when you have a little bit more time then you're, and you're also recovering better. Then when you have got your gym session, you're actually thinking you're not just I'm knackered, I'm going through the motions. Like you're thinking about what you're doing and you're taking the time to foam roll, you're taking the time to activate before you go out and all those. Yeah, just having a little bit more time is, I think, been really helpful as well.

Brilliant and touching. Leading on from physical pain then to mental pain. I remember you talking about mental pain versus physical pain and you loving the mental pain piece and sort of always getting that to the peak as early as possible. Talk me through that, because I thought that was absolutely fascinating.

Yeah, I think it's that thing of. I've always craved that I think it's almost like a high of. Of when you're pushing your body to the absolute maximum. And the treadmill on the Turbo is quite easy. Well, easier to do this on when you. You've literally got nothing left. And I think it's almost like you get to a point where it can't be any more painful than what you're doing and then you just have to hold on and it's. It kind of. It's that numb kind of high of. Yeah, I think you just get used to it and I. I don't know, I find. And, yeah, I love those moments because I just. Yeah, I almost get a high off the back of it and I think it's. Yeah, maybe it is a mental thing.

But I think it has to help. When you mentioned then about how the Turbo and the treadmill helps you maybe in more ways get to that place of pain, you also have probably one of the best setups for indoor training that I think I've seen. I remember we were doing the Zwift races and we'd be on camera and Emma would be, like, in the dark, but she'd have, like, strobe lights going and, like disco lights and a ball and, like, pump. You could tell there was music pumping as well. And it just looks incredible. Is that. That's kind of like. That must help as well.

Yeah, I think it's just. It makes it so much fun and like. Yeah, when you're out and you're having the best night out and like, we haven't had a night out in so long and it felt like every time we were going to do those Zwift races in the garage and it was.

It was.

Our time was like 9 or 10 at night, especially in the winter when it was so cold to get out there and then you just. Yeah, the lights go off and Jared starts the disco ones and I have all my favorite tunes and I don't know, we just had so much fun with it. It was. Yeah, I Actually really looked forward to those nights. It helps having a good setup.

So what would be one of your like go to playlists or pump up tunes that you use in those when you're in the pain cave or in the garage.

I've made so many playlists from. I like I just I get hold of loads of remixes and then yeah and a lot of like the old Rihanna stuff but then remix I was yeah really getting into awesome.

That sounds. That sounds good. I think anything that you can do to. To make virtual racing more interesting has got to be a good thing.

I think it would was like a very different experience when we were virtually racing because you were on camera so you could see all everyone else and you knew everybody and you had a chat in the in the pen beforehand or some people chatted. It was normally Lauren Brandon saying how how being all buzzy and energetic with everybody the rest of us are dying. But I think that's very different like you know from somebody just using Zwift or one of the other platforms. But you don't have that rapport maybe with the other races. So you're still very armed. You still feel very much like perhaps you're on your own. Whereas it was such because we were all isolated all over the world. It was. It was that kind of. It was a love hate relationship. You hated it from the pain aspect. Emma probably loved it but you just have that sense of like connecting again with all the other women that you were normally would be lining up and seeing at races and stuff.

It's all about. It was an opportunity to get back together with your tribe even if you weren't physically getting back together with them. And we've had the same with our time trial Thursday racing. It's been absolutely brilliant fun and do you think you will carry on with the virtual racing Emma once once you don't no longer have to.

Yeah, yeah, definitely. I love it. Like are you doing the June series? Yeah, I hope so.

Yeah. Brilliant.

I always we always ask because I listen to a lot of books while I'm out biking and out running. So we always ask are there any books that you found particularly powerful books that you find yourself recommending to other people or if not books any other sort of source of learning but anything that you found really helpful for you and you kind of find yourself recommending.

Yeah, I think we love a good movie just because yeah I get stretched and duty so cool runnings I love but that's a pretty obvious one. Then there's a movie called Without Limits about Steve Prefontaine. Yeah, I'm big, big into that, I think book wise. I like a lot of autobiographies. I kind of have read. There's Jason Robinson, he was a rugby player there.

Yeah, Billy Wiz.

Yeah, I really, I really enjoyed his book. Actually.

I haven't read his book. That's, that's really interesting. I actually wasn't even aware he'd got a book out. He's. He was a brilliant rugby player.

Have you read Kelly Holmes's book? Yeah. Was that part of the initiate? I don't know if she'd written it by then, actually. She. Maybe she hadn't.

It wasn't the first one you thought of, was it? You're gonna be in trouble.

Actually. Do you still, do you still speak to her? Do you still kind of keep in touch?

Yeah. So we were actually having a laugh at. Because I talked to her after we'd been to one of the orphanages and I was like, wow, yeah, I feel sorry for you. I said, you think we were badly behaved? And I was telling her some of the stories and she was laughing back at when she used to take us on camp and stuff. But yeah, yeah, I still keep in contact. She's actually got a place in Cape Town. So, yeah, fantastic.

Lucky her. And so to wind this up, what are you most excited about? Looking forward now that you don't have to be like everybody and just say any type of racing, but what specifically are you looking forward to in the year or so ahead?

Yeah, I think if I can get across for Euro champs, then definitely European championships will be the next one. One, of course, St. George as the world. Definitely looking forward to that. If I can sneak a place into the Collins cup, that will be amazing. And if not, it gives me something to work my ass off for next year.

So I wanted to ask you about that actually, because yesterday you had ranked 29th on the Collins cup ranking and you were the 14th European. Today you are fifth European and have so the top four, and I'm going to get this wrong and I should know about it, the top four get the automatic slots and then I think it's too discretionary to the. The captain. So thankfully and rightfully so, your last two race performances have moved you up from what was a very bizarre ranking to actually put you in the mix. So, yeah, your, your fifth European at the moment. So I think that puts you like and with. I would say, but I'm not picking with the performances you've had in the last couple of races that to Me would stand you in a pretty firm spotlight for being picked, but obviously, yeah, it's kind of up to still got to kind of creep either into that top four or hope that starter start speaking to Chrissie Wellington and Norman Stadler. Oh, yeah, I love.

I love Chrissie Wellington's book.

Correct.

Good answer. Well, I do love her books. And are you excited about the format of the Collins Cup? Do you think that'll be. Do you think that'll be good?

Yeah, definitely. I think just anything that is. Yeah, that can be broadcasted and get the excitement and I don't see anyone saying no to it. So it will literally be the best in the world. And yeah, even for what they pulled off at Daytona, like, I have big faith.

Fantastic. I think it's going to be amazing. So I can't wait. Emma, it's been an absolute pleasure. I really love chatting to you. Loads of good advice in there and, yeah, I wish you every success for the season ahead. And fingers crossed you make that Collins cup and then you have to come back on the podcast and tell us how it was.

Definitely.

Thank you so much for having me. Thank you.

Thanks, Emma.

So, Sid, what did you make of that chat with Emma?

Yeah, again, as with most of our interviewees, huge fan of Emma and I'm. Do you know, I'm just really excited that. And I don't want this to come across the same way, but I think just what we're seeing from her, like, what she's been through in her career already, like, she's done so much, she's achieved so much coming from the running background and the caliber she was as a runner and now into triathlon. But I think really over the last 12 months, she's almost not. Not reinvented herself. I think she's always been there, but we're seeing a new level of performance coming out from Emma, which I think is. Is really exciting. I think, you know, some people had perhaps said, like, you know, because. Because she's not had the success yet at the full distance distance, people forget that you can be an incredibly accomplished and successful athlete at the middle distance. And, you know, we're seeing that. And I think the results that Emma's had in the last couple of races is really exciting to see what she's going to be able to. I think there's still so much more to come from her going forward. So it was fascinating just to hear from her about sort of how she's changed. Yeah. How she's changed as an athlete from having success very Much as a junior in the running and now sort of with the support crew she's got around her with her husband and new coach, with Tim. And just then her maturity with again, that not sound. Taking the wrong way to her training is impressive. Yeah.

I thought it was absolutely brilliant. She was a really lovely person to chat to, but one of the things that fascinated me the most was the fact that she got to the point where she actually couldn't really run and at some certain point couldn't even walk because of her knee. And you hear so many people say, oh, no, I can't run because of my knee. But to go from that point and then become an incredibly successful triathlete, which obviously involves a fair bit of running, is absolutely brilliant. And I think that people could take that as very reassuring, but also help, you know, show the power of kind of cross training and kind of minimizing the impact. So I thought that was. That was really, really interesting.

Yeah. And I think off that as well. The fact that what she said, she's changed, like it's a lot less load that she's doing these days, but the effort involved is a lot more. But she's allowing herself. Herself to recover more or she's able to recover more in between, so she can go again at that intensity. And I think, like you said, like with. I was fascinated too by the fact that it was a running injury that pretty much sort of ended her running career as a very talented youngster. And yet she's. I'm not aware that she's really had. And I. Touch wood. I really don't want to jinx her now, but I'm not aware that she's really had that many injuries as a. As a triathlete, which is really impressive as well.

Yeah. And that linked into the fact that her physio background, similar to Kat Matthews actually, in the sense that, you know, being a physio you would think is. It is. Is a real advantage, but actually it can make you your own worst enemy because you kind of almost know too much and you can kind of, you know, basically you end up training through problem times when you. When you should be easing off. So. So I thought that's really interesting how we've had to train physios in the last three episodes and both of them are saying the same thing on that front.

Yeah, no, it's good. I say, I also like the fact that she has got the South African accent. I didn't fully hear it at first, I just thought it was the Londoner and the Southerner coming out. But then I was like, yeah, okay, she. She just say, and I will remind her and I'm going to pick her up on that next time I see her.

I thought it was stronger at the start of the podcast, or at least when we first started chatting to her. I think that the South African accent sort of crept out a little bit as we went on, but it was very good. And the last thing, which I thought was really interesting was the fact that, because obviously the podcast is brought to you by precision hydration, but really interesting to hear, hear how the strategy that they've given her with the 1500 beforehand and 500 during the race has really helped her in races like Florida and all of that sort of stuff. So, yeah, I thought that was. That was fascinating.

Yeah, really good. And I really hope she does have success in getting into Team Europe for the Collins cup, because I think the nature of the race. Race and her skills would be really very valuable for that team.

Fantastic. Well, let's keep our fingers crossed for her.

And.

When is the Collins Cup?

End of August.

That's when it is, isn't it? But when's it. When's the team finalised?

Oh, I can't remember when the cutoff is. I think the cutoff might be end of June. Not sure.

And then you've got the wild card picks to do after that. Brilliant. Well, thank you, Sid, again. And in the meantime, for everybody else, keep on training. Don't forget to download the Tribathlon app for more amazing podcasts, but also to help you train, compete and to build your tribe. Sam.