Going Sub-3 with Run/Walk/Run with Mitch Phillips

Foreign.

Athlon podcast.

Finding out how ordinary people do extraordinary.

Things, Trying to maintain some kind of regular regularity in your, you know, your energy output rather than just dying and hanging on.

That was Mitch Phillips, and this episode is going sub three with a run, walk, run strategy. So in this episode I got the opportunity to interview Mitch Phillips, who is a sports editor at Reuters. But the reason I approached Mitch is because I listened to a podcast where he was interviewed on Marathon Talk in the lead up to running my first marathon. And that was in the lead up to my first Ironman. And I introduced the concept of the run, walk, run strategy. And I thought it sounded like a really brilliant idea, particularly with the Ironman in mind. But what I loved about this podcast interview with Mitch was that it really kind of helped me understand that actually I'd associated the run, walk, run strategy with people that were going to do a sort of four, five or even a six hour marathon. But Mitch had refined this and refined this down to getting to a sub three marathon. And it was that refining that I really wanted to kind of explore further in this podcast because I really wanted to understand how he got to sub 3 using the run, walk, run strategy. He's got a wealth of experience in the running world, in the Ironman world and in running ultramarathons and you know, he's been running for years and years and years, but he's obviously, because of his Reuters background, got a wealth of experience in the world of sport as well. So I hope you'll find this conversation as fascinating as I did, particularly on kind of understanding how we can refine that run, walk, run strategy. It was an absolute pleasure to talk to Mitch, so I hope you enjoy it. Don't forget to share your training photos on Instagram with Tribathlon. We just want to see as many brilliant photos of you out about with your tribe and and I'll be picking out some photos over the course of future podcasts. This podcast is brought to you by Pip and Nut, the amazing nut butters created by Pip herself when she started mixing up nut butters in her kitchen in 2013. I think these nut butters are amazing. My particular favorites are the coconut almond butter, the maple peanut butter, and also the gingerbread one, which is delicious. But all of these nut butters are amazing and what's brilliant about them is that they don't have any palm oil in as well. So delicious nut butter that you can get and check out@pipandnut.com and if you hang on to the end of this podcast, I'll have a discount code for you too. So that's pipandnut.com for amazing nut butters. This podcast is also brought to you by the Tribeathlon app. Now, have you ever thought, well, wouldn't it be really cool if I could find other people that wanted to train at the same time that I could train?

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I listen to this marathon talks podcast and just, you know, while I was in the lead up to the Brighton Marathon, somebody mentioned the concept of run, walk, run and they suggested I listen to this particular podcast where they interviewed you. And it was just a brilliant piece of podcast stuff for me to listen to at that point in time. Really, really helped me. So Mitch, I'd like you to start off though before we get into the whole run, walk, run stuff and your history around that and your sub three hour run, walk, run marathon, which I still think is incredible and I really want to dive into a bit more detail on that. But before we do that, tell me a bit about your story. How did you get into running and triathlons? And tell me also a bit about what you do as a day job.

Start with part two first. I'm sports journalist. I'm sports editor at Reuters. Have been at Reuters For 22 years or so, been a sports journalist or a journalist most of my life. So I kind of COVID international sport moment. My role is kind of planning it and covering and I get out to lots of juicy events, lots of world cups and Olympic and world championships and they're the highlight parts and the more routine parts of sending emails to people, everyone else saying do this, do that. So yeah, always being involved in sport, work wise, activity wise, reasonable runner, school kind of, you know, county ish, nothing special. My dad was a decent run. He was all England, 800 meters, second place twice. I had a bit of some jeans in there, but Kind of played football most of my life that was my main sport. I always liked running but never really got much beyond county wise and then as football started to ease off I got more into running having run more as a fitness aide and then got into triathlon in the mid-90s and got into triathlon for quite a few years. Did my First Ironman in 99 in Roth or Rote.

And how many? How many? So how long after getting into triathlon did you go to go up to Ironman? Was it fairly quick?

It was quite quick actually. I mean I started in 90, I think I did my first sprint in 96 I think it was the only one that year on the Thames Turbo Races down in London at Hampton Pool which are brilliant beginner events super sprints they are and then a couple of years and then yeah, Ironman in 99 so kind of a couple of years really I hadn't done that many Olympic distance I hadn't done a half or anything. Went straight and I thought might as well crack straight on and just Ironman that was an official time Ironman Europe Then it became a challenge event at the time it was Ironman but it was relatively obscure event still then you know, most people knew about Hawaii and not much else. It wasn't a well known sport in this country. I didn't know anyone else who did it really.

And so what made you want to do it then if you didn't know anybody else that was doing it?

I can't really remember. I mean I think I was always a terrible swimmer. I always fancied it. I fancied it for years but I was such a terrible swimmer it really put me. I mean, I mean terrible comes out and all the bikes are gone, you know so it really put me off trying it probably for five or six years I just thought there's no point, I can't swim. And this event was like a 400 meter pulled swim. Well, how hard can it be? So I kind of like splashed and breaststroked my way up and down that and then I got some lessons in some decent swimming lessons and became competent. I was still relatively useless but I wasn't destroyed. I just quite like the idea of it. Maybe it was from a lifetime of being kind of okay at lots of sports but not supreme at any. I thought oh this is a good event where you can be okay again all three sports and then I quickly realized that some people are very good at all three fun thing and then you get to know people through it and it becomes, you know A big part of your life.

And how many Ironmans did you go on to do?

I did, I didn't do another one for 10 years. I managed to say that will do. And then I did another one. I did three in Uno. I did Barcelona. It's also a challenge event in 2009 and then Copenhagen in 2011 and.

Which was your favorite?

Barcelona was fantastic because I went with the Club Thames Turbo and we took about 40 people and. And it was just a brilliant fun weekend which is really applicable for your site, really how much more pleasure you get from it doing it with friends. And we range from really top level Olympic rowers doing nine hours up to guys hoping to crack 15. And everyone was in it together and we stayed in the same hotel. So it's just a really, really good fun experience doing it as a group. Copenhagen I like because I, you know, kind of. That was my fastest time. I kind of felt like I trained properly for it. The first one was this kind of voyage of discovery and you know, the time was irrelevant. It was just fun to try and do this crazy thing, such a great event with that, with that tunnel and I mean even back then it was huge and it's become super huge now and famous for being such a fast course. But it was just a really fun event to see all these locals coming and. And also one great thing about Roth is you tend to. They do this local stay system where everybody, not everybody, but the vast majority of people stay with local families. The community really embrace the race. It's really nice. Fantastic.

And what was your fastest time, you said in Copenhagen that was your fastest?

Yeah, I think it was 1040. 1040. I'd have to check it something like that.

And then, and then. So did marathons. Did you kind of focus more on marathons and running after, after that or was it in between those? You know, when did, when did you kind of switch?

Yeah, well, I think I did. I did a few Londons. I did London before Barcelona more as a sort of training rate of Barcelona. And that's when I, when I first tried run, walk. And then as I kind of came out of triathlons, I kind of stuck with marathons and easier, easier to train for and to do. So I've done a marathon probably most years last seven or eight years. Maybe just one, maybe two a year. One most years.

Right. Okay, fantastic. And your fastest marathon today. I know that you've done a sub three using.

Yeah, I did that sub 325833 in Hull. And that's still your fastest 2015? Yeah, yeah. I won't be getting any faster, I can guarantee that.

But you can plan to continue doing them, do you?

Yeah, I was supposed to do in London this year that fell apart.

Are you going to do it in October when they've reshed?

Yeah, but it won't happen.

No, I think you're probably right.

Mass events, the very last things to come back to unfortunately. But I'm actually getting a bit more into ultras now. I did my first official ultra last year, which 50k but that counts anything over marathons at ultra. So that was an off road one and that's kind of what I'm enjoying at the moment. I mean I run off road most of the time anyway in Mitcham park and stuff. But that was a beautiful race called the Serpent Trail down in Hampshire around Petersfield Way. And that's kind of my motivation now, that kind of off road running.

There seems to be a rise of the ultra runners to, you know, to coin a book title, but it's, it just seems to be the next thing you know, it's kind of like it seems to be really growing in popularity, doesn't it?

Yeah, it's definitely on the list and I think it's following that same kind of path. Marathons became huge and then triathlon became a thing and then Ironman became a thing and everyone, not everyone, but people are sort of striving for that next step. And I'm the same, I'm thinking I've done 50k, well now I need to do 50 miles now or I've got to do 100 miles. You're always looking for something, something else to challenge you. And I know that's kind of normal when people are doing it. It doesn't make the marathon any easier but it just makes as you get older, going longer and slower slightly more appealing than running on the edge of pain for three hours. Not on the edge of pain, on the wrong side of pain.

Yeah. So this. So then that brings me nicely onto this whole run walk run strategy because I would imagine that works even better for ultras. But how did you find out about the run walk run strategy?

Well, there's another, another good example of the benefit of being in a club actually because it was when we were building up for that first Ironman, I mean, went out for dinner, my club at Thames Turbo and one of the guys there just told me about, you know, Galloway and his method. I'd never heard of him even though he's an Olympian or the Method and kind of looked it up. He's written five or six books, I think, basically on the subject.

Thirty, I think.

Oh, really? That's cashing in on a simple idea. But so I went away and looked at that and I thought, well, that makes some sense. And kind of tried it out at London Marathon that year and seemed to work. And I didn't destroy myself. It was okay.

And then how did it work for you in the Ironman?

Well, perfectly, really. I think one of the things about it is that people do it anyway without realizing it. They do it accidentally. One of the things about one walk is that some people criticize. And you say, have you ever watched a marathon? You see a lot of people walking at the end. You see a lot of people walking in aid stations. And in an Ironman particularly, people are walking all the time. They're walking up hills and all sorts. So it really lends itself to an Ironman marathon leg. When you're already bit tired, you're not trying to do some spectacular time. Usually you're kind of lot people just surviving and almost from the start. So it's a question of trying to maintain some kind of regular regularity in your, you know, your energy output rather than just dying and hanging on. You want to enjoy it, don't you? Enjoy the day to a certain extent. Right. You don't be destroyed. You're gonna be. You're gonna feel terrible enough anyway, so you might as well do it progressively.

And so how did the run walk run strategy work for you at start and how did it evolve over time?

The method I used at the start or the ratio I used was, I think, nine minute run, one minute walk. That was a kind of Galloway kind of advice as a general, you know, for, you know, an experienced runner. I mean, he advises people using it very, you know, novice runners and he, you know, advised three minute run, one minute walk kind of thing. But I was, you know, I was an experienced runner by then. And it works on a couple of levels. Ideally, you get, for me particularly, there's two things you get. You get the physiological rest. You get a little break in your quads and your quad in your calves, particularly in some of those big muscles that are tightening up. Even though it's a minute that gives you a fair bit of rest, which is why you need to do it from the start. Not going to wait till you're tired. You do it after nine minutes and start. And then the psychological aspect of it, which I really like, is that you just, you break the race down into chunks, just like in triathlon where you break it down into each leg, you're not looking ahead. Same thing with this. You're thinking, you know, seven more minutes and I've got a break, you know, four minutes and I can have a break. And the break in itself doesn't necessarily need to be a big rest, but it might. It's just that, okay, have a breath and maybe take a gel, have a drink of water, you know, wring your hat out if it's a hot day or tuck your shirt in or something. You know, it's just that mental. I just find that a nice way to run. Some people don't. A lot of people just want to run smoothly and the idea of stopping and starting is horrific. But I quite like. And you practice it in training and becomes normal.

I think that, you know, I've thought about this a bit, particularly recently and I think in a way, yes, I absolutely get the physical benefits of it. You know, you're, you're helping your resting, some of the key muscles because you're using different muscles to walk than you are to run, you're reducing your risk of injury. So the physical aspects I get are really important. And the ability to then maintain a steady pace throughout I found to be really brilliant. But I think the mental side of it is far greater than the physical side. You know that particularly in the Ironman, you know, the last. It was quite funny actually. The first few miles I nearly kind of missed my walk. Kind of bounding, full of enthusiasm. By the end, you know, literally I was looking at my watch every minute, but I was only thinking, oh, it's now only seven minutes, now only six minutes.

Yeah, you're not thinking it's only three hours to go.

Yeah, exactly. You know, and it just made such a difference. And I think that's, I think that's a bigger factor is the mental piece and breaking it down into chunks makes such a big difference.

Yeah, I certainly kind of thought that. And even as I got faster and I adjusted the ratios to the point where when I did the sub 3, I was walking for. I think by then I changed it to. I've been through a few ideas and by then I did, I think I was doing nine or 10 minute runs and 20 second walks. So the walk in itself, you can't be getting much rest from 20 seconds, but it's just enough, just enough to give you that mental break and just to just take a little bit of pressure off your quads for a few steps.

How did you refine it to that so when you went from nine minutes running and one minute of walking, how did you end up working out the 10 minutes of running and 20 seconds of running?

It was kind of refined for me by, by a couple of near misses. I had two very near misses at London. I did 3 hours 7 seconds and that was a bit uncomfortable. And then the following year, having learned from my mistake, I did 3 hours 21 seconds both times doing the walk. What I decided was, you know, I thought I didn't need to walk for so long. And also, of course you've got to run fast. I mean the key is if you're doing a, if you're doing a sub three, basically your run pace is whatever it is, 6:52, if you're going to walk for a minute, you'll run the nine minutes you're running. You're doing 6:40 or something, which is quite hard. It's quite a big jump. And I found that pace quite hard to hold. I also thought, do I need to walk for a minute to get the benefits, the mental benefit? No, I could get that from half a minute. Physically. Well, I'll probably, you know, I'll lose a little bit of benefit, but I'm losing a lot of time. So I think the next year I think I just trimmed it to something like 40 seconds or 30 seconds or something like that, what it was, or seven minutes and whatever. I changed the ratio around a bit and got kind of close. And then by then I thought, well, I'm, I keep missing it. I'm going to try bit more radical, just keep the walk really short, 20 seconds, just enough to give me a little break, but it won't slow me down so much. I could still run something like whatever I needed to run then the 49s or something, a pace I was more able to keep up, I think. So, yeah, I mean it's trial and error really over. I mean I did it over four, five years, four, five, six years.

So a few things that come out of that. One is, and I know this from your another podcast on the Marathon talks.

One.

I'm willing to bet that you had a lot of grief from your friends when you were coming in at 3 hours and 21 seconds or 3 hours and 7 seconds. For goodness sake, man, just walk less or don't walk at all. You'll do your sub three.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean that's the never ending conundrum, isn't it? If you hadn't walked, you'd have gone faster. And I said, well, maybe I would or maybe I would have, you know, got cramp and fallen over and done four hours. You know, what I can say is on one of those races, I think I get the two mixed up in the painful memories. But I think the second one, I got a bit mixed up as you do when your brain tends to mush towards, towards the end of the marathon on my timings and I kind of lost my pace a bit and I, and I sort of mentally decided, well, I'm not going to do sub 3. Now. I've done a couple of slow miles around about 18 or 19 or something and pace was slipping and I thought, there's no way I can do this. So I sort of gave up and slowed down and I did a couple of slow miles and then I kind of, by about 22 miles, I sort of thought, how aren't you not that far off? I sort of recovered it and I really pushed the end and I did the last 5k in sub 20 minutes and was really powering through. And that's the other benefit you get from it. You pass a lot of people, you get a mental lift, you finish strong and you're passing all the people who are getting cramped and falling over because in theory you're finishing quite strong, which is always easy. It's always a nice thing to be overtaking people rather than being overtaken. So then I kind of, you know, worked out from that, you know, it did still work. I just needed to fine tune it system. I had faith in the system. But yeah, mates were saying, you know, well, that's not even a, you know, it's not even a run. You can't say you run the marathon, you know, this kind of stuff, it's cheating. You just got to run all the way. But I mean, I've never bothered with that. And if you look at ultra runners and stuff now it's absolutely normal and encouraged to walk, to walk hills. You know, no one considers it poor form or, you know, not quite cricket to outrageously walk part of the event well.

And that's. There is a stigma around, isn't it? I mean, I was chatting to somebody. I was supposed to be running London Marathon as well this year for Sparks, the charity. And I was at a Sparks event back in January, I think it was, and I was chatting to this lady that had done a couple of ultras, she'd done a couple of marathons and her, I think her fastest marathon was maybe four and a half hours. I think she wanted to go sub four. And I said, you know, you Want to look into this whole run, walk, run strategy. She said, no, no, no, I've done ultras, I can run for the full 26 miles and I'm not. I was trying to explain to her that this wasn't that I was debating the capability to do it, it was actually I believed that it might get her there faster. And certainly Jeff Galloway reckons it takes about 13 minutes off an average runner's time by switching to the run, walk, run strategy. And in fact he's refined it a little bit now. So he's, from what I understand, more recent stuff. He's shortening the walk piece like you did actually, you know, down to sort of 20, 30, 40 seconds. Need as long as a minute.

Right? Yeah, actually, I mean that was another thing. He also has different kind of suggestions, different ratios for different ages. I was 53 when I did that sub 3 and he said, I kind of went back to him and had a chat with him and he said we're finding some success with shorter breaks for, you know, masters runners, as we like to call ourselves. But yeah, but some people, the challenge is to run all the way, you know, and that's fine. I mean it might take them five or six hours, might not necessarily be the most efficient way, but that's their, that's their challenge. I mean generally not many people are doing it for sub three type times. Partly because if you're doing a four hour marathon and you what's that eight minute miles and you want to walk run, you might have to do the run part at say whatever, 7:50 or something. It's not a massive leap. There was a leap from 650 when you already, if you want standard Club Runner to 640 is quite a big step. So it didn't necessarily lend itself to the faster end. Just about worked for me.

How when you played around with all these times, the different splits on it, how did you keep track of it? I mean I have a run what run strategy on my Garmin and yet I find that if I don't, if it's not nine minutes and it's not divisible by 10.

Yeah.

Quite often miss the buzz. So then if I look, if I'm looking down, if it's not divisible by 10, I have no idea where I am. So how did you keep going?

It was. Well, it was pre Garmin, it was old school watch. Although I did then have. I had a Garmin up on the later ones, but it's quite a basic one that just had an Average time, I didn't bother with buzzes. It wasn't absolutely scientific, you know, I didn't beat myself up over it. It was kind of roughly seven minutes. And if I got to a point where there wasn't a convenient easy stop or it was a hill, you know, eight minutes, I didn't care. I wasn't going to thinking, I must stop, I must stop. As long as I was doing roughly 21, you know, if one was a bit shorter, one was a bit longer, I didn't care that much. But if you, I would say if you are new to it and you've got the technology to set those timers and I'll definitely try to use that. Because your brain does turn to mush when you're doing these races. You just can't, you can't make any calculation. Hang on, 10 minutes to go. 10 minutes a mile.

That means the next section's already come round before you've done the maths.

You just can't do it. So any external technological help to, to take any thinking out of the process, I would definitely recommend, well, the Garmin.

The Garmin. You can set up a run, walk, run strategy on it so that it will buzz after nine minutes and then buzz again. It will literally say, run now or walk now.

Yeah, yeah, Try to use that if you could. Yeah, yeah.

So I've kind of worked out that if it's a divisible by 10, it's easier because then when I've missed it, I can look down and go, well, okay, I know I'm. I've been running for 42 minutes. I missed the 40 minute break.

Yeah, yeah.

Now I now know roughly where I've.

Got to catch up. Yeah, definitely. The easier you can make it, the better it is. Yeah. Sevens and twenties, I think I. One year, I think I had seven minutes and thirty seconds. Something that was getting complicated after a.

While, I would imagine.

And it sometimes lends itself to a per mile and you might just say, okay, well I'm going to do 20 seconds per mile and I'll run it every mile. Stop. That kind of stuff.

Well, that could, I could see that working, actually. Yeah, I could see that.

If you're tight, you know, if your mile times roughly work with that.

And the final thing on run, walk, run, I think, because it might set off something else. But the biggest challenge for me, I think, is the, is the kind of social element of it, you know, the fact that you set. I mean, like, I'm not as fast a runner as you, so I Set off in the four hour marathon group expected time, you know, Brighton. And then literally nine minutes into that, I'm starting to walk and everyone's kind of around and going, who's this muppet here? He's got absolutely no, come on mate, you can do it type thing. How did you get.

I mean, I had exactly the same. And the first time I did it at London, I was on the green start, which is quite a small start, was media and celebs and quite a few. Not many people come out. So you, you already kind of quite strung out and. Yeah, I pulled over to the side of the roadside walking and you know, everyone's going, oh, you're right, mate, you're okay, you know you can do it. I know I can do it. And you feel like you want to explain to them, you do understand what I'm doing here. After a few miles, you kind of get in your own little zone and you kind of look ahead or you. Sometimes I'm not going to walk past this, I'm not going to walk across Tower Bridge, but I might walk when I get around the corner. And then once you've done it a couple of times, or once or twice, you know, you don't care about it. To be honest, I just do it for anyone else's benefit.

I just took to staring at my watch.

Look what I'm doing something.

There is some strategy in it. And then I thought about getting a T shirt that sort of said that, you know, running and walking is part of it.

No, it is difficult. It shouldn't be, but it kind of is. People pat you on the back and then you got the other slightly other aspect of that is that you pass the same people lots of times. When I first did it, one of my friends was a journalist, was running. We were both running around the same kind of time and he would, I would stop and he would disappear up the road. And then as I was then running faster than him and I'd then come past him and then you go, okay. And then a few minutes later I'd stop and he'd come past me again and he's getting really sick. And then after a certain time you're ahead, but not everybody enjoys that. As you come past me some they're thinking, if you want to come past me, come past me. Well, I have, but I'm just stopping now. And I think you're sort of taking the piss a bit. That's also a little bit weird. But yeah, it's a good system.

It is a strange Concept and particularly at the start of the marathon, it mentally was really difficult. I don't think I could quite, quite last the full minute for the first.

Two or three because well, look, one of the most important things that new runners get, one things that most new runners get wrong in a marathon is going off too hard, isn't it? You know, it's the most common advice to give that you would give any, you know, new marathon runner. And this is a guaranteed way of making sure you don't do that because you will do if, if the worst comes to the worst and you bomb out and do your first mile too hard, you're then going to have a stop and then you're going to have a break and you've got a chance to think about and you think, hang on, I was supposed to do an eight minute miles and I've just done a mile and a half in eight and a bit. Settle down and the work, the only damage you've done is one mile. Lots of people can destroy their race after you know, 20 minutes, 30 minutes of going too hard. So it's a kind of, it's a built in break, really built in sensibleness.

Well, I, I've been putting some thought into this and I think you're absolutely right. You know, it's a bit about reflection on what's happened so far. It's a bit about reducing risk of injury. It's certainly about re energizing and it's just kind of like just, you know, I just think it's such a powerful strategy that I'm surprised more people don't.

I'm surprised more people don't because people do a lot of it without realizing. Like we said, lots of people walk and hide stations. They'll slow down to have a gel or a drink or walking at the end. Yeah, exactly. So you can incorporate those things. I mean, I tend to not bother with gels and things much anymore. But in early days when I was having you know, maybe like five or six in a race or something, that's everyone used to in those days you take a gel or a drink during that, during that walk, you know, so you're not wasting time. Then you get to the aid station, you just hang on through because you don't need to stop.

Well, I found that, you know, I don't know if you had them, the little cliff energy blocks.

Oh yeah, I quite like those. Yeah.

Pop one of those every, every walk and it's like a little treat. Every walk.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. It's all A mental treat, isn't it? The break is a treat, the food's a treat, Everything is a kind of. Oh a little reward for that effort you've just put out. Yeah.

So it's just touching on nutrition then. In that case, if you said that you had used to have five or six gels on a run, particularly now that you're getting into ultras, what nutrition do you tend to have nowadays?

Well, I've only done one ultra so I would be reluctant to advise people. Too much running and it's only a 50k. But when I did my sub 3 I had 2 gels I think and a bit of water and the whole thing. I never have any gels or energy drinks or food when I'm training. I don't do fasted training but I've done a couple. But I just, just run off a banana or breakfast, whatever. So I really tried to avoid all those things. And to be honest, I think even the two I had were just a kind of a bit of a treat. I don't think I would necessarily needed them. So I've cut right back on and there's a big sort of movement away from that anyway I think now from gel belts with 16 gels around them like a tequila girl in a bar slamming them down. You know, you just have one every 20 minutes they say on the paper. I mean there's a lot of kickback against that I think in the sort of running world now generally. And I'm certainly, I certainly didn't suffer from not having it. I think a couple fine.

I think that certainly I have to treat gels with a lot of caution. My digestive system isn't a big fan of them. So some of the. I found that the Velaforte ones, which are much higher quality, much more expensive as well, but they seem to be okay. But yeah, my biggest, my only threat to not doing finishing the Ironman was my stomach after having gels.

Yeah, well, yeah, and stomach problems ruin a lot of people's races. My first marathon in 1990, I had terrible stomach trouble trying out a new product at the time and I was sick after four or five miles or something and I'd gone into that race in great shape and I had a terrible race and that was a long time ago. And before gels it was some kind of mixed up powder goo that was pretty disgusting. But people do certain long races. What a way to ruin a race by having stomach problems after all that training and then feeling sick. It's terrible.

Although a friend of A friend of mine, a guy I train with regularly has other than his, I think his first Ironman he finished in pretty much bang on 11 hours. And then every one since he has, I think I'm right in saying has has had to pack up because of stomach problems. One way or another he just can't.

Yeah.

And yet then you hear about these ultra runners who will literally some of them eat pizza while they're running. That's a slightly different approach.

Well, when I did my ultra last year it was a really hot day. It was in July, it was absolutely boiling and they had some great aid stations and I just started yearning for watermelon, which they had and I was getting to these aid stations and just taking these enormous pieces of watermelon. Just kind of buried my face up and again it was a kind of mental thing. Much anything and that watery goo and then lemon. But I think I spent about five minutes in one of the end just eating this huge fruit salad. But yeah, you had lots of, lots of savory stuff and potatoes and salty stuff. And I think they generally, I mean the longer they go they generally just say eat whatever your body tells you. Whatever your body tells you you need. I most marathons you want that. But yeah, and most triathlons, Ironman events are going to have big loaded aid stations with a whole bunch of savory food. I think I would definitely advise people to try to avoid just driving off chill for 15 hours. Not many people's stomachs can handle.

I think that at least the energy bars, the higher quality ones, at least they're proper kind of, they've got some substance to them whereas the gels just. Yeah, well they don't agree with me anyway. So if run walk run strategies was one of the best pieces of advice you ever got, what's some of the worst advice you've ever gotten? Where did it come from?

Worst advice? The advice that annoys me most of all in, in triathlon and running is usually manufacturer this whole idea that you throw your shoes out after 400 miles that you have to have a £70 t shirt. I mean when I used to read 220 magazine it used to drive me insane looking at their reviews. Now it's, you know, his seven running T shirts and the bargain one would be 60 quid. And I think, hang on a minute, that's a T shirt. A bargain T shirt is a fiver. That whole kind of push that you must have all the gear and especially in triathlon there's a lot of snobbishness as well with bike levels and things. So advice that you need, all that gear is poor advice. You can have a really good fun triathlon on a cheap secondhand bike and cheap kit and the idea of throwing out A pair of 100 pound running shoes after 400 miles is absolutely ludicrous.

So how far would you run in your running shoes then?

I would have no clue but. But many, many, many times more than the manufacturer recommends. I tend to have three or four on the go at any one time so kind of, I mean I've got shoes I've had four or five years kind of you know, trail shoes that I might not wear for six months. Road shoes that I just wear for long runs and I tend to mix them up so I don't wear the same shoes regularly very often. I've got shoes that I would be pretty sure have done thousands of miles and I've had injuries I don't think I'm kind of injury free and they'll be able to say how that's why I've had injuries but I mean I don't think they're shoe related. I wear different shoes. I just think it's a big manufacturing.

Marketing for it's like the. Like the. Was it V dancer soon or no wash. I can't remember which, which shampoo famous shampoo it was but they said rinse and repeat that one mile exercise doubled their sales.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah yeah yeah.

It's a good piece of marketing genius.

Yeah. And the other one that kind of annoys me slightly is the idea of John Miles. I kind of get all depends on what you're trying to achieve. But for most people, you know going for a run is a good thing and I get it that lots of people do lots of unstructured running, lots of running too much at the same pace but I just. And I get it. I junk miles do you fast miles fast and you slow miles slow. Lots of people do too much in the middle but it's still a run and it's still better than sitting on the sofa and it all helps.

I'm glad you say that because I haven't really torn by that whole junk miles thing. I want to train to get faster at my things like the Ironman. But actually the reason I'm doing the Ironman is to motivate me to go out and do the training and it's the training that should be for me should be the priority. The Ironman is just the kind of reward the cherry on the cake. So actually Junk miles. If you're going out running in the countryside and you're doing it in a way that's good for your mental well being and that you're enjoying it. Yeah, I don't, certainly don't beat myself up about it. I know that I don't run in the most structured way in my training, but I run in the way that's good for me.

I think it's a misconception of what it means as well. I think people. I do lots and lots of very slow running now. I do most of my running relative to my race pace, most of my run, most of my long runs now I run roundabout nine and a half minute pace, you know, relaxed, slow pace, sometimes slower, stop and you know, smell the roses and then I'll do part one or occasionally do, you know, tempo run. If I'm in training I'll be doing tempo runs, whatever. But most of my running is really slow. Junk miles to me would be. It's a bit that you do all your mileage, you know, a little bit too fast but you don't do a huge amount of really high end work. So as far as achieving progress in your training on your time, it's a junk mile and it's not necessarily structured. But I don't really like the concept. As you said, you're doing a marathon one day a year or an Ironman one day a year and you're training 300 odd days a year so you might as well enjoy the training and that's why just run slow and enjoy the running and then, and then do some, do some hard stuff at the other end. Do that 8020 training. Another one of those, another one of those guidebooks. Matt FITZGERALD I think 8020 training was quite a good one. You do your hard stuff hard and your slow stuff. So that's why part one so good that that takes, that looks after some hard stuff without having to think about it.

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And so you mentioned right at the start the importance of having other people to train with on. Obviously this is a big part of what triathlon is about. It's about helping people find other people to train with, but helping to also understand which of your mates are competing in particular events because we all know it's far more fun to compete in an event, as you said in Barcelona, where you've got other friends doing it. How did you meet all of your training tribe? Who do you train with and how did you meet them all?

Mostly through a club and that's quite, it's interesting you say that because I wasn't in a club for a long time and as I said at the start, I didn't really know many people or anyone who did triathlon. I was kind of a solo and I was reading in the magazines. It's great. I made all these great friends from triathlon. I'm thinking, actually, I haven't really done that yet. You talk to people at the events and it was a fun day, but I didn't have mates in the race then. I friend I did know, not through triathlon, through something else, who I bumped into at a race, said, you know, we're talking afterwards. He said, you should just join a club, it's so great. And I hadn't joined the club, particularly, mostly because of my work, because of sports journalists. And I worked most weekends, most of the club stuff, the club bike tour, always on Sundays, and that kind of just didn't really fit in with my life. And I didn't really want to go swim twice a week. So I had loads of reasons why I didn't want to join a club. But then I did and I joined Thames Turbo. They were fantastic. Great club, really good range again, from top quality to fun guys. Really good youth section and just got to know people there and the motivation. And that's why I did Barcelona. I was talking to one of the guys and said, well, a few of us are talking about doing Barcelona next year. You fancy it? And I thought, well, that sounds fun. And then a really good training group got together and been stayed together and we're all friends ever since, really. We did it again in Copenhagen a couple years later, went out with wives and partners, even bigger group. Half of those guys, their children are in the club now as adults. So, yeah, it was really, really a big change for me. I'd always played, you know, team games, football particularly, but running wise has always been quite a solitary affair for me, and it still is, to be honest. Running mostly is just because of the practicality of it, but being part of that club for those few years was really, really good fun and very motivating.

And I think that's kind of where Tribathlon was born out of, actually, because I had a very similar experience, you know, cycling for about three years. And I kind of find the odd friend that cycle. And maybe once a year I'd do a sportive and I'd cycle with some friends, but other than that, it was all fairly solitary for me and it took me a long time to get into a crowd of people and then I started getting into triathlons and it was exactly the same. And, you know, I'd have been cycling for three years and suddenly there'd be this big sport, you know, big cycling sportive going past my doorstep. And I'm thinking, how do I not even know this exist? It feels like these series of doors. You open a door after you've been cycling for a year and you find, oh, there's a few people in here, and then you open another door a year later and then you start triathlons and you find the same thing all over again. And it, you find it takes you quite a while to build a tribe.

And all out there, you know, there's so many club running clubs particularly, and tri clubs dotted around now, hundreds of cycling clubs. And people sometimes think, you know, they're not welcoming. In my experience, they're all very welcoming. You know, they will want members. They're not. Very few of these clubs are geared to top end anyway, only they're accommodating for all levels. And of course, a certain amount of trepidation when you turn up and say, hi, you don't know me. I'd like to join your club. I would estimate that would probably last five minutes in any club. They always make you feel.

Well, I think that's what's so fascinating. I think that once you get into these bubbles, you realize they're incredibly welcoming. It's finding the bubbles in the first place, you know, I found, you know, I've been, as I said, cycling for six years, doing triathlon for three years, and I literally. A month ago, when I was interviewing somebody for my financial planning business, I discovered that there's a triathlon club in the town where my office is, where my business is. I didn't know, I knew there was one other in the county, somewhere else, but it's like these. It's another door.

So.

So I've got to open that door to find out who's in there. But I find it incredible.

Yeah, it's another step. You know, it's like any slightly awkward situation. If you don't know anyone in the club, it's not the easiest thing, is it, to just walk up and say, hi, my name's John, I like triathlon. Can I join, please? But in fact, that's all you ever need to do. Someone will say, hey, sure, yeah, where'd you live? What races have you done? What do you want to do? And off you go. And no one's, no one's judging you. No one's kind of you know, it's £300, please, you know, you know, it's just, it's just making that first step and it's a very easy first step.

Well, it is when you find it.

Took a long time to do it as well. I mean, I was doing triathlon for a long time before I joined the club and it massively enhanced my enjoyment of the sport once I joined.

Brilliant. Yeah, no, that's fantastic. So are there any books that you particularly recommend, any books that you regularly gift or anything else along those lines that you think has really helped you?

I've read so many that they all tend to blur into each other and I can never remember which ones, which Matt Fitzgerald I like as a very accessible author and he's written about 20 or 30, I think. I think I'm getting right. In fact, I'll look. Yeah, he's got a couple of brain. Training for Runners is one book that he's done which is very good on the mental aspect of running. An 8020 training, which is what we were talking about before. Kind of encouraging people that slow running is okay as long as you do some fast stuff. I'm kind of becoming a bit more aware now of physiology of it all and being. I'm looking after your body a bit and reading a bit more about how to prevent injury and recognize what you're doing wrong in your. In your gait, that kind of stuff. As you get older and a bit more battered, you need to read a few more of those things. And then my favorite running book of all time and probably my favorite sports book of all time is Feet in the Clouds.

In the Clouds.

You don't know that book? No. Oh man, you got a treat. It's a fell. It's all about fell running and the Bob Graham round, which is this kind of 24 hour challenge of running, whatever it is. 42 peaks in 24 hours and some mad challenge. But it's the story of this guy, he lives in London actually, he's a journalist and his kind of discovery of firwelling and the book itself is his personal story linked in with the history of fell running and these incredible extraordinary athletes that no one's ever heard of. You know, just so good. I'm pleased you haven't read it because anyone who's not read it, I always get very excited to tell them about it because I guarantee without fear that you will enjoy it. Brilliant.

Well, I shall, I shall add that to my. So I listen to my books while I'm running and cycling and that'll be. That'll be.

Yeah, I do.

Running book and cycling moment is Rise of the Ultra Runners by Adharat Finn.

Ah, you did well to say that.

Well, you said that just about. I think I just about got it out there. I think I sort of stumbled enough to get away with it anyway. But yeah, and that and his book Running with the Kenyans I've really enjoyed.

But that.

Yeah, yeah.

But it's on the list.

Yeah, no, it's very, very good. And I suppose the last question, what are you most excited about now? Is there something on the horizon? What are you going to train for?

Yeah, well, my big challenge, my big interest now is ultras and off road ultras. So I've got a couple. Well, and on road because I still want to do Comrades. That's on my list.

That's in Rise of the Ultras as well.

Yeah. Is it? Yeah, I'm sure. And I know quite a few friends, I've been to South Africa a few times, I've watched it, I've been there as a fan and it was fantastic when I was over there on a rugby trip, definitely. And a few friends have done it, so I definitely want to do that. But my kind of more accessible stuff is to do sort of long, long off road runs. So I'd like to do a 50 miler this year and then the long term goal is to get 100 miler at some point and just that will be a lot of walking and not so much running.

Yeah, I was gonna say that Walk, run, walk. Strategy is.

Ratios might be about 50, 50, but I really enjoy it off road running and my first taste of it as a race last year, that Serpent Trail 50k was really good fun. Even that was boiling hot. Kind of pounding the pavements doesn't really do me. I mean I do most of my training's off road anyway. Triathlon wise, I think I'm done. I'm not sure because I commute to work 15 miles each race I'm going to normally get 90, 100 miles or so. And I was, I keep thinking, well, I've got this running and cycling fitness, it's a bit of a shame to waste it. So I'll go into one. Even though I hate swimming. And three times I've entered the outlaw over the last seven or eight years and three times I've had to pull out twice through injury and once through work. And then I kind of did have a bit of a chat with myself, said, why are you doing this? Just because you feel like you've got another Ironman in you. Do you actually want to do it? It's quite a hard thing. You have to sometimes sit back and think, why are you doing a race? I absolutely hate swimming. I haven't been in a pool for literally years. I don't know how many years do I want to start spending my evenings training swimming again? Just because I think I've got a bit of cycling and fitness. But you know, I think once a triathlete, always a triathlete. It's all in there. I've still got the kit, the tri bike is still in the shed, I've still got the wetsuit. So yeah, there probably will be another one in there. But whether it's an ironman or not, I don't know. But I'm enjoying running. I've been relatively injury free for a couple of years. That's the other big thing now is to just recognize injuries when they're coming or, you know, see them off. So staying fit, running and being able to keep running is the challenge. I guess.

I'm sure you'll agree there's a lot to be learned from that conversation with Mitch and about particularly about how he refined those times for the run, walk, run strategy, getting the optimum splits to get him eventually under the three hour mark. Although it took a few attempts to get there, didn't it? Anyway, genuinely lovely guy and I hope you took a lot from that conversation. And don't forget to share those photos with Tribathlon. I'll be looking out for them. This podcast was brought to you by pipnut.com delicious nut butters that you can find@pipandnut.com and if you use the discount code Tribeathlon15 Tribeathlon15 you'll get a 15% discount on your first order, so go check it out. As I say, my particular favorite is the coconut almond butter. Enjoy. @pippandut.com don't forget to download the triathlon app for more amazing podcasts, but also to help you train, compete and to build your tribe.

Sam.