Marvellous Mimi with Mimi Anderson

Foreign.

I'm charlie redding.

And I'm claire fudge and this is.

The tribe athlon podcast.

But even knowing all of that, all of that, it was the hardest thing I've ever done. Actually. Really awful. Still makes me cry.

That is Mimi Anderson and this episode is marvelous. Mimi. Hey, Claire, how you doing?

Yeah, good. How's your week going?

My week is good. I've been surfing in Cornwall and cycling and yeah, it's, it's been a good week. What about yours?

Awesome.

Yeah, it's been, it's been good actually. After having some, some time training down in Dorset, it's been kind of back to work, so. Yeah, but good. Not as fun as.

Well, surfing is fun until you get whacked in the face by the surfboard, which I did this afternoon. So not. It's not all rosy, but we're joined as well today by Warren Pole from 33 Fuel, our new sponsor for the podcast. So, so it's great to get you back on the podcast, Warren.

Good to see you again, guys. I can't possibly compete with all your glamorous locations. I'm in central London. There is definitely no surfing here.

Actually, you've got an amazing backdrop of some really cool art, so you look like you're in the right place. And obviously the last time we saw you in person was just after or around the time that we did the Arc50 ultramarathon. And you and Erica provided an amazing crew facility. So yeah, great to see you again.

Likewise. It was a beautiful weekend that and I'm still, still have fond and impressed memories of the performance that you guys put on for a first Ultra in Inverticon was absolutely smashing it out around the coast path there. Still memorable of how quick you were in and out of checkpoints. And if Ultras are won by the people who slow down the least, I think that summed up your day because you literally just. There was not a time you were not moving as quickly as you could. It was a great weekender and nice to see it from the non running side of things too. I quite enjoyed all the sitting down.

If that was the secret to our success. I think I can blame my success on Claire dragging me out the feed stations.

Yeah, I'm not one to hang around, but yeah, you got to get, get the feed in and move out. So yeah, it was, it was all important. It was all part of the nutritional plan.

It was. Well, it worked. It did work very well. So it's great to get you back on Warren, because you were one of the first guests on the Tribathlon podcast. So it's great to get you back and I actually really encourage people to go back and listen to that podcast because it was a brilliant episode and we, we dived in to a lot of detail with, you know, kind of the, the reasons behind 33 fuel and your own endurance background. But I thought it was, it'd be just good to get you back on the PO podcast to talk briefly about the sort of history of 33 fuel and where the name comes from and what the, where the ideas behind the products were. So tell us a little bit about where 33 fuel came from, both in name and in idea.

So the. For those who haven't come across us before, natural sports nutrition is what we do. And it came about from my own ultra running experiences. We're going back to the sort of early 2000s and I was having real consistent problems with nutrition, a lot of stomach trouble. And as anyone who's done any long distance endurance would know, the further you go, if there are problems, they're only going to compound. And simply looking at the ingredients in many products, it became clear that a lot of them were common with processed foods and junk foods. Whereas basically the foundation of a healthy diet is obviously good fresh food. So my wife Erica and I, Erica was doing a lot of triathlon at the time. I was doing a lot of ultramarathon. We went looking for a natural alternative and at the time, genuinely nothing existed. It was powders and gels or nothing. The market has grown a lot since then and there are now more alternative options, more natural options. There are a lot of different things you can find back then. Nothing. I swapped out to cheese sandwiches and malt loaf and I'm wondering, Clare, if the maltloaf was a bit like your scotch pancakes moment. That really, I really enjoyed that. Yeah, the pick me up, yeah, it hit a spot. But I was going better on cheese sandwiches and maltloaf than I was on so called sports nutrition at the time. And this sort of began the catalyst early experiments. We're very early onto the superfoods. We're like, what if we started making sports nutrition products using superfoods? They were very new at the time that it was really found in dark corners of the Internet with, you know, kind of slightly weird beardy people. But the knowledge coming out was great. Our early experiments didn't work very well though, until our third founding partner, he came to join us. He is actually Erica, my wife's sister's husband's brother. He was in Canada. He'd been studying superfoods for a decade and he came to London to visit. He ended up staying for a couple of months in our apartment and helping us because he brought his superfood knowledge for holistic wellbeing. We brought the sporting knowledge and we ended up with a shake blend with 33 ingredients in it. Can you see where I'm going with this? There were 33 ingredients people in that first ever shake blend. That was an all in one stop. Not just protein, but all of your micronutrients, your anti inflammatories, things that would help sleep, things that would help mental clarity. But all from nature. Not compounds, not processed, not chemicals. Simply the raw natural superfood ingredient with all the properties into this one blend. And that was what became the foundation of our business. One product, it was a shake. It had 33 ingredients. We called our business 33 shake. And lesson for anyone, 101 entrepreneurs 101. If you're coming up with a company name, probably don't name it after your first product because one day you might make more products and then suddenly you've got a business called 33 Shake that makes energy gels, protein bars, greens, blends. Very confusing. We became 33 fuel and have never looked back since. So that's us. And that's where the 33 comes from.

And that product still exists today in your product range?

It absolutely does. It's at the heart of our elite meal replacement shake.

That's the one that was okay?

Yeah, that's the one, yeah.

And so that is your. So you describe as a meal replacement shake, but is that. When would you use that as an endurance athlete?

It's a gold standard product and it really is something that you would use. I mean clearly if money were no object and use them every day, that'd be great. But that's probably not going to be the case for most people. Where you would use that is your biggest days, the times when it really matters. When you. We're talking race day, we're talking race day recovery. So a couple of days afterwards, we're talking pre race or we're talking those big, big training blocks when you're putting really major volume in for a week, stick some of these into the like one a day for the last three days. That what it's going to give you. It's not just about getting calories in. I mean you know all about this, Claire. It's about getting the maximum beneficial micronutrients in. And that's where this Shape scores so highly because it's a very, very concentrated natural form. And that's why in the very early days we picked up one of our biggest customers for those products, a certain Sir Bradley Wiggins. And then that's how Team sky then started trialing it. And, you know, things have gone from there. But it's a specific product for your big game days.

And you mentioned the micronutrients. Is there. I mean, I don't think we should go through all 33, but 33 ingredients, but other like one or two that you want to pick out and go, well, this is really important because of this.

There are so many. But I mean if we were to start with just one. For example, if you were to take maca, right, Maca root, it's a, it's a root from South America, comes out in a powder. What that helps in terms of, it's not only been proven to increase endurance ability, but it also helps with the foundation for testosterone production. So in anyone, particularly once you're getting over the age of 30, having that there as a catalyst to help an optimal environment for testosterone production is really valuable. But you've also got the simple fact that it's going to help improve your endurance as well. Now this is just. These are two properties out of one ingredient. But it illustrates that when you, when you take something and boil it down to just say one macronutrient, for example, carbohydrate, you get the carbohydrate but you don't have any, anything else behind that. If you then swap to using a natural source for that purpose, you can get multiple benefits. So a great example there would be baobab, which we use as the foundation for the carbohydrate in our energy drink. It's an amazing anti inflammatory, it's a great source of carbs and it's got a ton of vitamin C in it. So you're getting all of that while you're getting your carbs as well. When you come to the elite pre and post workout shake, you do that 33 times and everything brings so much more to the party that that's kind of why it hits so hard.

I like the idea of like that because when I was down, when we were down in Cornwall, I actually tried your products for the first time actually as well. And one of the shakes that we're talking about now tasted amazing. And actually one of my thoughts about using it is we've got a lot of. So a lot of the clients that I work with are kind of sporty they're not necessarily athletes doing triathlon, but they're sporty and they ride a bike but do a lot of traveling. And actually on flights and going through airports and things, sometimes it's really limited in terms of good quality food. And actually that was one of my thoughts is actually if you've got something really good quality that can just get the nutrients in that you need, because sometimes you don't even have an appetite as well. So I think that's, that's like a really nice time that you could also think about. And it's easy to pack, isn't it, as well in the.

Or to have on the move because, like, when you're driving along, you've got long days driving. I actually had one of those on the way back from Cornwall after doing the Ark. And, you know, it's so easy to stop at a service station and then you're like, oh, right, okay. It's the standard range of rubbish food options. Whereas having one of those on the go, I just was. Was really, really good. And I know I'm getting what my body needs, but also getting a lovely shake at the same time. So, yeah, I think that's, that's a really good point, Claire. What?

What?

So you've obviously evolved the product range in since that 33 shake was first released. One of the ones that always stands out to me is the Daily Greens. Tell us a little bit about what prompted you, because you mentioned there's, you know, there's a whole load of good micronutrients in the shake, but what made you think to. To launch the Daily Greens?

So the Greens come about because the Shake will do all of that and then some, but you know, kind of just over seven pound a serving. It's a specific use. It's a very expensive product to produce and we appreciate it's not for many people, it's not going to be every day, but it's there for them. We're like, okay. The mission of the company is about helping people improve their performance, health and build a fitter future, both for, for active people, but also for the planet. And if you want to do that, you need to be able to do it at scale. So an elite race product is great, but it's not going to hit everyone every day. What about when you're just in a hurry in the morning and you need something that helps? This is where a greens blend can come in and can help anybody. But again, we go to the market. Okay, what's out there? Greens blends that are Drinkable tend to be drinkable because they have flavoring in them or sweetener or both. As an example, flavoring, even organic, natural flavoring. When you buy it as a food, as a producer, it comes in big canisters and they have a lot of warnings on them due to the toxic nature of it at scale. In small doses, it is legally fine. It's absolutely, it's a legal food additive. But if you were looking for the best, you would not choose to eat it. And if you saw it in the containers, it gets delivered to manufacturers at, you definitely wouldn't use it. So we're looking for how to get a green splend without this. Well, you can have a greens blend without flavoring and sweetener, but it'll probably be undrinkable. Now we've got a compliance problem that's not helping anybody either. Greens by their nature don't taste that good. We went to the drawing board and what we ended up coming up with in our blend was to start blending it with cinnamon. And what the cinnamon does is it just takes the edge off the greens. It's got a little bit of sweetness in the back of it, but it's an incredible anti inflammatory all on its own. So not only did we solve the taste issue, but we did it by adding an extra benefit that wasn't in another greens blend. And at that point we're like, okay, we can really help people with this. Let's roll this out. And it's literally, you know, a spoon a day and a glass of water, bang. And you're just ahead of the curve on your micronutrients. It's the everyday version of exactly what you both talked about in terms of how do I manage it when I'm traveling in an airport. Well, okay, maybe one of the elite shapes would be good if you're, you know, you're flying to Kona Claire or whatever and you want to stay right on top of things. You don't want to have to have a hot dog just because it's the only thing there. Charlie, again, you're trying to, you know, well, what about the Mars bars? If I just have the shake on my way back because the arc took so much out of your tank, how do you get it back in? Well, what about the everyday version? Spoon of greens? That's where it came in. Brilliant.

And I think it's, I think the cinnamon is, is a great point. Actually, I was going to mention that because, you know, I've had, I've had spells where I've Taken wheatgrass every day or spirulina every day and. But it is blooming horrible. So that little bit of cinnamon, and particularly when you blend it with your protein shake, which is also delicious, that cinnamon just adds that little bit of flavor and you know you're putting good stuff in your body. So I think it's, it's really good. And just briefly, one, the last product, I mean, we're not going to go through the whole product range, but the one, the one I just want, I am really always intrigued by is your energy gel, because I've not seen anything like your energy gel anywhere else on the market. So just for people that haven't seen that, explain that product and also so its origin, but also how athletes should use it.

The Chia energy gel that we produce, its origin can be traced back to me, covered in globs of Chia in a field somewhere, following the country to cap, not the country's capital, the London to Brighton trail route as part of my UTMB training one weekend. Because Chia seeds, obviously, you know, they got slow release energy, they've got good fats to help you with your fat burning and they've got all of these great things. Cheers to Superfood. Clearly, I'd not long since read Born To Run at the time. We're back in the early 2000s again here and Chia seeds, that's the answer. So, you know, you just got to soak them in some water. Had no idea what to do. Put too many Chia seeds in a water bottle, then put too much water in. Thought this will get me all the way from London to Brighton. Went to sup on it. The bottle clogged immediately because chia swells by roughly seven times, it absorbs roughly seven times its body weight in water. Wouldn't come out the nozzle. Took the lid off the bottle. Everything then exploded. I'm covered in Chia. Turns out Chia on water kind of tastes like wet cardboard as well. Not a good experiment. That is the birth of this revolutionary product. Not very hopeful, but the power of Chia is so good, particularly, and this is the kicker, when you don't grind it, you lose all those beneficial oils are in the shell. You lose those when you grind. And powder. Cheers. So powder Chia has some benefits and it's a good product, but if you can keep it whole, that was the gold standard for us. So we used it as the foundation for an energy gel. There are 100 calories a shot and as you guys would know, you need to prepare your gel in advance, so you pop the top on it, you add water to the level of the neck. We've got this down to a fine art. It's perfectly balanced in there now. It does not explode. It swells up to exactly the right consistency to give you a perfect gel. Takes 10 minutes and then lasts for 24 hours. So in an extreme endurance event where weight matters, let's say marathon desart, you would take them dry and fill as needed in the morning. Whereas in an event like the arc, where you're not going to want to stop, you'd simply make them up the night before or the morning of the race, carry them and use them like any other gel. But they've only got four ingredients. Chia seeds, vanilla, Himalayan pink salt and coconut palm sugar. So you've got a little bit of carbs trickling in, you've got the fats, you've got a very, very stable energy curve. There's no spike in there. Very easy on the stomach because literally, in its essence, it's a cheer pudding. And what you can do, water would be the standard mix, but because you're hydrating them well, you can use anything you like. You can put oat milk in, comes out creamier, you could put fruit juice in, you get a bit more carbs, you change the flavor. And if you want the greatest caffeine gel ever, put fresh coffee in it. That was a trick. We like. We. We only ever thought of this originally with water. All of those recipes have come from customers. And the coffee one, you can blame Italian cyclists for that. Took them about a week to work it out.

The coffee, I have tried it with coffee and I think it's delicious with coffee. And obviously you get your nice caffeine kick at the same time. But the other one that I've tried, it was coconut water and that works really nicely as well. You know, we've got some good electrolytes in there and so, you know. But, yeah, I think it's a really innovative product. How would you use it compared to a traditional gel? You know, I get the feeling the energy release would be different to a traditional gel.

Yeah, it's definitely. It's a steadier build and a longer burn, so we'd use fewer of them, but where you would use them is the longer, steadier stages. So, you know, if we're talking Iron man, then we're going to go in the middle of the bike, maybe a couple on the run, but we're talking steady state, sustained effort. The place you're not going to use them is five minutes out from the last climb on the last stage of the day in the Tour de France. When you need a, when you need it to really kick, they're probably not going to come in quite quick enough for that. But if you're doing sustained, steady exercise and training, they'll look after you all day long.

Awesome. Well, it's been great to catch up again, Warren. Really looking forward to working with you on the, on the podcast. And you know, we'll obviously get, we'll get Erica on at some point to talk about the kind of Italian roots of 33 fuel as well. But yeah, fantastic to catch up. And also we have a plan in the diary for the next ultra marathon, don't we? And you very kindly agreed to crew for us, so not until the end of the year, but I.

You're the only one with the entry is what I'll say. Charlie, so far I know you did.

Say you'd mentally committed, so I'm sorry.

Yeah, I had mentally.

It's great to see you again, guys. I'm really excited that we're, we're working together on this because from the beginning, when we first met Charlie and then found out more about what you were doing with tribe, I thought, I just think it's a brilliant project. There's so much professionalism and energy that you bring to it and you as well, Claire, getting to know you. When we came down to do the arc in Cornwall, it just feels like a really great, a really great team. It's wonderful. The quality of your guests and the content is so good and it's just totally aligned with our mission for helping people be better athletes at wherever they want to be. So really excited to be working with you and, you know, thanks for the idea.

Fantastic. Well, I agree. I think you're totally aligned in terms of delivering quality, endurance, but not at the cost of putting bad ingredients and bad food substances into our bodies. So yeah, no, fantastic. Right, well, now we will dive into the interview with Mimi Anderson. This podcast is sponsored by 33 fuel. Now 33 fuel produce award winning natural sports nutrition and everything they do is led by their fuel osophy for performance health and a fitter future. 33 Fuel's mighty products have been fueling triathletes worldwide since 2012, as well as many of the world's best athletes, whether that be England football team, Tour de France winners and also triathlon world champions. In fact, football four times Ironman world champ Chrissie Wellington has been using 33 fuel for years. 33 fuel also leads sports nutrition sustainability with plant based formulas for reduced environmental impact. Recyclable packaging and also carbon neutral delivery is a free option on all orders. Rated by Runner's World as one of the top 50 eco hero companies worldwide, a portion of all of the 33 fuel sales also support reforestation initiatives. So if you want to find out more go to 33fuel.com and if you use the discount code Tribeathlon you will get a lovely discount at the checkout and also if the there's a link in the show notes to take you through to that discount code as well. Enjoy.33fuel.com. Wanda Summers has an incredible story that demonstrates the power of the mind. She got into running by signing up for Marathon Desables, billed as one of the toughest races on earth. So not an easy start, but life was about to get much harder. Soon after mds, she was paralyzed in a paragliding accident back near her home in Cornwall and was told that without surgery she had a 0% chance of walking ever again. But Wanda ignored the advice, defied the odds, and now not only is she walking, but she's back running ultra marathons again. Claire and I got the chance to chat to Wanda about her mental strength, about that mental strength through both racing and recovery, going from couch to marathon to sables, the iconic races she's done since and the secrets to running longer and faster. So I know you're going to really enjoy this incredible conversation with Wanda Summers. Now Wanda is based in Cornwall and the Cornish Internet was not playing to our strength that day. So please forgive there is a little bit of disruption on the on the line on this, but I'm sure you will agree is well worth listening to the incredible story that is Wanda Summers. So Mimi, welcome to the Tribe Athlon podcast. Thank you so much for joining me. I am. I'm really excited to chat to you because, well, what. What an amazing array of adventures that we can talk about. So welcome and But I want to kick things off by understanding how you got into running because I think it's always brilliant to start the story of you know what really got you into it?

Oh, I'm always total vanity. I started running just purely because I wanted thinner legs. It had never occurred to me that I wasn't a runner. I used to do sports at school, but team sports. And after the birth, well yeah, after the birth of my children, I decided that I just needed to do something. So somebody suggested I should start running. So I thought, oh, okay. Then I went to the local gym and I literally stood on the treadmill and I'd avoided the treadmill because it's one of those things I thought, you know, I'm going to press that button, I'm going to fall off the back, that type of thing. So I'd never gone on it. And Again, this is what, 2000, 1999. So, you know, the Internet as it is now didn't exist and so I had no idea what I was supposed to do. So I did start a run walk program and built myself up to a mile and then I did three miles and I had to do three miles in 24 minutes. And I'm not quite sure why I chose 24 minutes, but that's what I chose. Very random number. And then, yeah, and then I went and did a run outside with friends. And again, back then, it wasn't normal to see loads of people running outside. You know, now you see people running with backpacks and, you know, with their dogs and push chairs. That sort of didn't happen back in the dark ages. So, yeah, it was quite nice to actually go outside and discover that people, that's what people did. I mean, it was a complete revelation. It was fantastic.

Brilliant. So what was your first big challenge then, on your running journey?

Well, we did a little. A few things, I suppose. The first big, big challenge was the Marathon des Sables. We did a few. In the build up, I did a half marathon, which I have to say, I thought was pretty big at the time. And yeah, so we did that. And then literally having done the half marathon distance, one of my. The girls that I ran with came up to me and just literally said, mimi, I found our next challenge and she handed me this magazine, I think it was the time supplement or something. And on it they had done an article on the mds. And I just remember thinking, oh, my God, look at that. People walking around in these funny suits and gators on. Although I didn't know they were called gators at the time. And these funny hats, you know, that shaded them from the sun with their backpacks and blisters and. Yeah, and I just thought, yeah, definitely got to go and do that. So we had to send off for the information. Again, you couldn't do it online, you had to send it through the post. But yeah, so that was my first challenge. But in the build up to that, we did something called the Thames Path. Saw the Thames Meander. In fact, it was called, which is a 50 miler, which we did with full kit when the Thames was Flooded. So that was rather comical.

And what is it? I mean, I interviewed a lady called Wanda Summers recently who actually did MDs, then became paralyzed in a hang gliding accident. And then now he's back and told her she'd never walk again. And now he's back running ultramarathons.

Amazing.

But MDS was the thing that drew her in. I've got friends that have done MDs, obviously. Kerry Sutton, a mutual friend, has done mds now 3 times. What is it about that race that really draws people in more than probably any other endurance race out there?

I think, Well, I think firstly. Well, for me, I think it was because I didn't know about anything else. Now it's very easy to put into Google, you know, ultra races or whatever. It's a whole load of them to pop up. But again, back then, you know, MDS was the only one that most people knew about. And there is something very exciting about going to spend seven days in a desert. You know, the Sahara desert's well known, running with a full pack, staying in a. It's not even a tent, it's a bivouac which can blow away at any time.

But.

So I think. And it's not. The distances aren't too extreme as well. So you're, you know, obviously you've got one long day. But I just think it's the excitement of. It's the adventure, isn't it? For me, it was the adventure going somewhere completely different and doing something way outside my comfort zone. I mean, I didn't know whether I could finish it or not or whether I was capable of doing something like that, because it's not just a physical challenge, it's a mental challenge as well. But, yeah, there's something about that race, I don't know what it is that just people go, gotta go and do that. Gotta go and do it. It's definitely on the tick list, isn't it?

Something about their marketing has clearly been better than any other ultra race out there, because you're right, everyone knows. Then it's like, you know, well, their marketing was very good because it was branded the toughest race on Earth. Now, I dare say you would question that statement, but it's. I've. I've seen countless races that are branded as the toughest race on Earth.

But.

But yeah, I mean, it's a fantastic event. I haven't done it and I'm. And I'm very keen to do it. Although, have you done other of the. Have you been back and done MDS.

Since No, I haven't. I did. I've gone and done lots of other desert races, so I do like the desert. But I hadn't done the MDs twice, because, again, for me, I had a sort of a young family or a youngish family, and obviously my husband isn't a runner, so we couldn't ever go and do anything together. And so I think, for me, it was more important to go and do other events in different countries rather than go back and do the same thing over and over again.

So of the other desert races, which one other than mds? Because I dare say being your first has a special place in your heart. Which of the other desert races would you, you know, did you really love the most?

I love the Kalahari Extreme Marathon in. It's in South Africa in the Kalahari Desert. I actually went back and did that twice. Once in 2006 and then again in 2009, because I think it was their anniversary or something. So a whole load of us sort of went back again, and again it's done on the same format as the mds, but it's much, much smaller. So you're looking at, I think, the first year I did it, 35 people. And that, to me, is just. It's wonderful. So you get to know everybody. Everybody gets to know you. You're camping on one one of the nights we camped on the Orange river, and you could hear baboons making an absolute racket. You know, the other side, and you run along and you've suddenly, you know, you see a giraffe or you've got gemsbok and. Oh, it's just. It's lovely. I mean, there's something magical. I love Africa anyway, but there's something magical about running with the wildlife.

And I suspect if you're feeling a little bit tired, there's nothing more motivational than a lion creeping out of the undergrowth.

I know we did a race in. I did a race in Namibia, and apparently one of the checkpoints we went up to, there was a sort of a leopard that sort of, you know, apparently was hovering around. I was quite excited. I thought might actually see a leopard. And somebody said, mimi, you actually don't want to see the leopard. All right? Then.

You get so caught up. I've been on safari a few times, and we were in a. It was a game reserve in South Africa, actually, and we'd been. I love the leopard is my favorite thing to see. I think it's just magical creatures. And we'd been trying to stalk leopards. This whole particular trip and, and then on the last day we were sitting in the camp and somebody said, there's a leopard in the camp.

I'm like, brilliant.

Right, you know, you're back into. Right, where do I go get the camera. Let's go take a photo of it. No, no, no, no, no, no. You don't understand. We need to, we need to stay away from the leopard in this environment. Because you do. You just get so caught up with it, don't you?

Absolutely. They'll eat you. Yeah. You are their dinner.

Yeah, I know, but being in the jeep, particularly when the jeeps don't have any cover, you know, you are lulled into this false sense of security, aren't you? You know, you're sitting there and there might be a lion or a leopard just literally a meter or two away.

From you if you were out of the car with that. Yeah, that's a very different experience. When I, when I raced in Colorado, somebody said we were given these barbells. Barbells, bare bells, which we had to put on our backpacks. And we were given this pepper spray stuff. But the locals said, don't worry, you won't be seeing a bear. They're quite rare. Well, there I was running down this road, you know, literally about to turn into this forest and there was a bear. And I'd actually turned my. I'd switched my barbell, a bear bell off. I'd put the Velcro over it because it was annoying me, this sort of bell going the whole time. And all I could think about was getting my camera out, take a photograph, and I was quite close to it. And thankfully the bear turned around and walked off and then turned around and looked at me as I sort of came into the woods and just thought, no, you smell too much. I'm not going to go near you. But again, very dangerous. I mean, he could have just turned around and what killed me, but in that moment I sort of forgot that.

But it is interesting, isn't it, that I suppose because of any. You know, it's like sharks, isn't it? There's so many, you know, you hear stories about sharks, but actually sharks generally don't want to attack humans. They don't like the taste of humans, they don't like the, the human blood. It's generally a mistake. So I suspect that nine times out of ten, as long as you're not, you know, probably the worst thing to do is run in the opposite direction. But. But yeah, I'm interested by the pepper spray that Sounds a bit like the. The advice, you know, once the bear is on top of you and you're trying to use the best. The pepper spray, it's probably a little bit too late, isn't it?

Exactly. You know, where is it?

Yeah. I remember being in Australia and them saying that the most dangerous animal in Australia is a cassowary. Not the. Not the crocs, not the snakes, not the spiders, but a bird, albeit like the size of an emu.

Yeah.

The best thing to do if one's coming towards you is to stand up with your hands, like right up in the air because it won't attack anything taller than. Than it. But you are literally exposing your whole body to go, right, here you go. You've got a free shot at me if you want it. And I'm not very tall anyway, so I wasn't very confident, even with my arms in the air that that was going to be tall enough. So you've got a reputation for doing doubles. I have many doubles. Spartathlon double, Comrades double, Grand Union Canal double what? So tell me a little bit about the mindset of why isn't doing. I mean, the Spartathlon is what distance?

Remind me about 100, 153 miles. Yeah.

So it's 150 miles in hot 36 hours. Yeah, yeah, 36 hours. But in its hot temperatures, isn't it? It's. I read one of our. No, not at Aragon. Finn Vasos, his books.

Yes.

Is themed around him running the Spartaph on. And so why is doing that once not enough?

Well, yeah, I mean, the. One of the things I never want to do is disrespect the race I'm doing, you know, the main race, because to be quite. They're hard enough as it is. But my doubles only started because I wanted to go out and do Comrades in South Africa. And I said to my husband, right, I'm going to go out to South Africa and I'm going to do Comrades. And he said, we can't go out there and just do 90 kilometers. I thought, oh, all right. Then, you know, he had absolutely no idea what Comrades was about, but he just said, no. He said, 90 kilometers, it's not worth going out there for that, you see. So I began doing a little bit of research and I discovered that two guys a few years ago had done the double, so they'd had a lot of support, so they'd had road closed for them and everything. And they ran to the race and then they turned round and ran back. The aim was to do it within the 12 hour cutoff that you had. So I contacted them and they. No female at that point that I was aware of, had actually done it. And I think they were a little bit, well, very South African actually. You know, I don't think they thought that a woman could do this type of thing. But anyway, and said it was very difficult, you needed lots of support. Anyway, I got loads of support. It was fantastic. I had a friend of mine who used to be the personal bodyguard to Nelson Mandela. So he was great. He gave me a couple of guys who came and they were part of my crew. So I ran from. I did the uproot first. So I ran from Durban to Peter Maritzburg. So we went, we did it in under the 12 hours and through the night. And these guys are absolutely hysterical because of course, people line the streets or line the course the night before. They're all there, you know, drinking their beers and they're having brides and, you know, they're setting up the music at the halfway point. So we managed to dance through that and I did it with a friend as well. And yeah, and we literally got to the finish of the upper and we then had to get to the start of the down of the race because you have to be in your pen by a certain time, otherwise you'll set right to the back. And it was at that point I was quite nervous. I'd really enjoyed the up and I thought, ooh, am I now going to be able to run all the way back again? And yeah, it was amazing. So that's how my doubles started. And then I think the next one was bad water because I'd done bad water before. So I wanted to go back a few years later and then do the double. So the double for that means you have to. Because the original Badwater race, so it's 135 miles, finished at the top of Mount Whitney. So it used to be 145 miles, 146 miles. So I had to finish the race and then go all the way, summit Mount Whitney, which is four and a half thousand meters, and then come all the way back down to the basin again. And I beat the previous time that a woman had done the double. I mean, it's not a record or anything, but I, you know, was out to beat a time and I think I beat it by 21 hours or something. And then the Grand Union, because nobody had done it. And I did speak to Dick about it and said, you know, are you happy for me to do this? And I think, you know, had again because you've got, you know, now it's, it's done on a ballot. It was done on a ballot then. And I think, you know, if you were to do that again, if I was to do it again, I would do the race first and then run back. Because I just think otherwise, if you then run there and you don't make it, your somebody has lost a place in the actual race. But I managed to run there and then turn around with the race and run back. So it was horrible weather on the way there, glorious ice cream weather on the way back. And so I just enjoyed it and relaxed. Yeah, but I love it. I think with any race, if you're going to go out and run 100 miles or 50 miles and you know that that race is 50 miles, when you've got to the finish mentally and physically, you can't do any more. But if you know that you've got to turn around and go back or you, your race is 100 miles, your mindset is completely different. You know that you can, you know, you know that that's the distance you've got to do. But once you get to that finish, if somebody says to you, mimi, oh no, you still got another five miles to go, you go. Don't think so. I can't do that because you sort of switched off at that stage.

See, I'm pleased you said that because I was going to ask you about some of the kind of mental techniques and you know, because I did my first proper organized ultra in January, which is the 50 mile arc 50 that we've talked about, about on the podcast. And I remember, I mean, I actually was ill in the days leading up to it, so I actually hit some pretty dark patches as early as 13 miles, which is really very early. And, but got, got through them, got through halfway. I was like, right, I think I can finish this. But I remember distinctly, remember at 45 miles, which is the steepest, the last, the three steepest climbs are all in the last five miles, 45 miles. I had a brief chat with somebody who was finishing the arc of attrition 100 mile version. I was like, right, I know now I can get through the 51 miles that is this race, but I have absolutely no idea how. I, you know, I just, there's no way I could get through 100 miler by the Monday. I was looking for 100 mile race to sign up for, but that's a different issue altogether. But how, how is that, you know, so different? Mentally to, you know, what sort of. Have you got any techniques that allow you to kind of turn around and just go back and do it, do it again?

No, I think for me it is just. That is what I'm doing. So. I know, I know it's not easy. I mean, like you, I have dark places where, you know, my crew will literally sort of have to sort of pick me up and give me a kick up the backside. And, you know, and they know now, you know, if I say to them, well, how far to the next, let's say checkpoint? They know that they can't lie to me. They can do little white lies, but they can't do an out and out lie because I get really cross, you know, I'd rather know that it's five miles rather than could be about three meanie, you know. So I have dark patches, but I use imagery, I suppose, in my head. So I always have a picture in my head of the finish line. So I would have googled pictures of the race and know what the finish line looked like. And at that finish line, I have got my family. They're never there, but I have got my family waiting for me and they're holding the medal and I'm running towards them with my arms up above my head, so. Cheering and. Yeah, and that, for me, is a very strong image. And even if I'm having a bad time, that's there.

It's interesting that you say that that's your image and yet they're never there. So talk to me a little bit about. Because obviously, as endurance athletes, it is quite a selfish exercise that we go through and yet the visualization is about. About them. So talk to me a little bit about that.

Well, I just think that, yeah, it is very selfish and I think my poor husband, bless him, has put up with an awful lot, you know, getting running again. Mimi, are you. Or you're, you know, you're doing this or. And it. And I think my children were fine, although my eldest, who is now, she's got three children of her own, she would sort of say, oh, well, Mum, I never went to this party or I never went to that. She never missed out on anything. You know, she went to everything because ultimately, family come first. You know, if they're ill or something happens, you might, you know, you might have a long training run and one of your children are ill. You think, really, this is so not the time to be ill, but you can't leave them, can you? So you obviously, you look after your family, but I Think it's because it's the people that I know love and support me, that they're, that they're always part of my journey, whether they're there or not, you know, because another image I have is my children around a swimming pool and they're, you know, they're all singing to steps, Reach, you know, Reach for the Stars, the corniest song in the world, but we love it and it just always makes you feel happy. So it's silly things like that. And they've been great. And my husband, I think he did find it quite difficult. He didn't marry a runner and then suddenly his wife is going off and leaving him and leaving the kids and I mean, they're always very well looked after. But you know, again, back in those sort of days, women didn't tend to do that sort of thing, you know, so I was frowned on sometimes for leaving my children. They were always quite safe and always well looked after by my mother usually, or my parents. But, you know, I did get a bit of criticism for that. But I think, I don't know, I think it made me a better, a better person going off and doing something that I wanted to do for myself when I came home. I was able to then enjoy being at home, you know, loved my children. So that never came into it. So I don't know, it's just, I think it's very important to have our own things, whether you're male or female, to do something that you love to do. And I think now it's much more accepted that you can do that.

Yeah, no, I agree. Did you find ways of kind of bringing your husband, who isn't a runner and your children into the experience? You know, whether it was sort of making holidays around it or did you just go off, do it, come back and then it's like right back in the family time?

No, no, we did. So when I did the Kalahari for the first time, my youngest and my husband then came out and we then had a 10 day holiday afterwards. So that was great. My son, I've never done anything with my eldest actually as part of my racing. My youngest has also come out and been with a friend and she's been part of the crew, whether you didn't really need crew, but, you know, so they had a mini holiday there. My son came out to the Arctic as part of the crew with me and my husband now, bless him, he crewed when I did my John o' Groats Lands End world record. That was the first time he'd ever crude for me. And initially I didn't want him there at all because I thought he's never seen me in pain to that extent. And I wasn't quite sure how he would react. You know, he's either going to put on crew hats or he's going to put on husband hat and go, no, she can't go any further. Which I knew he sort of wouldn't do. So he came and crewed with that, and he was brilliant. And sometimes I had to remind him that he could put on husband hat and, you know, it didn't have to be crew all the time. But after that, he did actually say to me when we got home, he said, you know, Mimi, you know, it's been very selfish. You're running and you haven't really involved the family. And I hadn't done that intentionally, but I think because it was something that was mine, it wasn't part of the family. It didn't involve them. It was my thing. You know, my husband's got his thing, I had my thing. And he said, you know, if you want us to get more excited about it and get more involved, you need to involve the family. So he said, I have made a decision. I'm going to come and crew for you. And. But crew in races, if I don't need a crew, he goes and helps at the race. And my heart sank. Absolutely sank. I thought, no, no, no, no, no, no. I quite like anyway. But he came and we've never looked back. It's the best thing he ever did, you know, so he's been everywhere with me, which is great.

Fantastic. That is actually really interesting because. And do you think that he now enjoys it as much as you do, or is it just. Does he just tolerate it or, you know, how has that evolved over time?

No, he's. He definitely enjoys it, you know, because he's. We've been to so many different places. He's met a lot of the people, obviously, that I've met, which has been. That's been really nice. And he's very good at it. You know, he won't put up with rubbish from me at all. And he. But in any situation, he will just deal with it and he'll get it sorted. He used to be in the army. He's very good navigator.

He.

He's very good at organizing things. He's very. I mean, I organize everything and then he just does it. But I never have to worry about him because I know that he just does it. And. Yeah, he loves it. He does love it. I mean, he's having nice cappuccinos and, you know, ice creams as I'm slogging it up the road to meet them, you know, so he does have a good time as well.

Because I actually, this. This is sort of ringing true with me. My wife offered to crew with Kerry James, and also Warren and Erica from 33 fuel were crewing for me and Claire, my co host on the podcast, and Carol offered to crew for that. And I was like, I don't know, because my instinct was that I would, you know, if I was in a dark place, I'd bite my tongue with friends that were crewing. But if it was Carol, I was kind of like, I might just actually say what I think and then she'll probably say what she thinks and it'll all kick off. So I wasn't sure that was the place for it to be kicking off. So, yeah. Do you find that you interact with your husband differently when he's crewing compared to obviously when he's just your husband? And also, do you. Do you find that you interact with him differently when he's crewing compared to other people that are crewing?

Yes, I can be slightly ruder to him, you know, so. But no, I mean, I'm sort of. I mean, I have moments where I mean, my crew always say, you're constantly saying, sorry, Mimi, because I hate it. If. So, an example would be when I did my double bad water. There was a point where I met one of my crew and she said, mimi, produce this sort of bowl of blech. And I just looked at it and I went, I'm not eating that. I said, it's got carrots in it. I mean, I was like a petulant child. I mean, I literally stamping my foot and I went, I am not going to eat that. So she totally ignored me. And I ran on and met me a mile down the road and she'd taken the carrots out, but she's, you know, And I looked at her and said, you've added some more though, haven't you? And I said, I'm not going to eat that. She looked at me and she just said, mimi, if you don't eat this, we've got all day. We're not moving from this spot. And again, in America, I think there was a point where Tim, bless him, turned up with a thermos of. It was very, very cold, and I was about, probably five miles from the finish of the day and it was raining and it was miserable. And he said, right, come on, you've got to eat something. And I just was not in the mood, just did not want to eat anything. I just want to get to the finish and do. And he said, come on, you know, you need to eat something. I won't say the swear word that I said, but I said, what the beep, beep, beep. Have you suddenly turned into a beep, beep, beep nutritionist? And I sort of walked off and I thought, oh, that wasn't very nice, was it, Mimi? So I've turned around and I went, I'm really sorry, Mimi. It's fine. I know that you didn't mean it, but in, you know, you have that moment, like you would do with your wife, probably, where you just, it just comes out and then you think, oh, shouldn't have said that. Yeah. So it's, it's. But they ignore me. It's great. They all ignore me. And I don't, to be fair, I don't do it very often, but when I do. Oh, yeah, it's great.

Well, because I do remember in your book that you was going to come on to America next, actually. Yeah. You had some interesting interactions with your crew there, didn't you? And you, you know, you. You were raving about the, the lady that was cooking you food while Jan's food.

Oh, yes, it was delicious.

So given all of these different, you know, extreme races that you've done, what. What sort of, what food have you refined it down to being, you know, the best food is there? I mean, I know when you. It's kind of we 40 days into the running across America. Is that right when you have to pack up. So that's a lot of. I mean, you can't. Clearly you're not eating the same thing all the time, but have you kind of worked out the best food to eat during, you know, pre race and during the. While you're running?

No. It's ridiculous, isn't it? How many Iran for 20 years and I still haven't refined it. I think my problem is that I'm not really a foodie, so I did struggle with eating anything. So I think for me, the foods in America that Jan cooked, I mean, she was brilliant. So she would look at the elevation we had. I didn't have to do any of this work. I mean, I'd done the roofs and things, but she would look at the elevation that we had to do that day and then would make sure that I was eating the calories. So it varied every single day. You know, we would have boiled potatoes with, you know, with salt and stuff on, and she'd chop up, you know, crush up avocados and, I mean, you know, wraps. And my breakfast in the morning was this fantastic shake that was about 1,000 calories. And if I didn't finish it while I was getting ready, then it would be given to me at the next stop, you know, so it was. And yeah, so she was in charge of the food and there was a big, big variety. But again, you know, they would have five things when I arrived. And I just want that, you know. And I realized after, I think it was day one, that I always quite negative, coming up to a. Not negative with them, just negative about the food because it was. It just seemed to be all about the food all the time, you know, because I had to obviously eat all this food and. And I just felt that I was being quite negative. And that must have been really horrible for them to have, you know, their runner who they're there to stop support coming and going. I've got more food. So I thought, Mimi, no, you're not going to do that anymore. You're going to come in and even if you don't want to, you know, obviously, I mean, I ate something, but you're not going to be negative towards it. But yeah, so mostly, I mean, anything, I think, but proper food, I can't do any gels or anything like that or these carb drinks or anything, so.

Not what? Not what? Not never any of those stuff. It's all proper food. Always.

Yeah. Yeah. I just. I really struggle with, I mean, these drinks and things. Again, I've tried a couple and they just end up being quite sickly and especially when it's very, very hot. So I think it all depends on the weather conditions. I mean, in the Arctic, I would. I made myself a sort of trail mix which was. Had nuts and raisins and chocolate and because, of course, chocolate didn't melt and all of that in this trail mix in each bag was about 1,000 calories. And that's, you know, so it's different depending on which country you're racing in.

And of course, I would imagine the amount of food that you need to eat is different in the Arctic versus running across the US which. Which was hot at the time, wasn't it? So I imagine you're consuming a lot more calories because of the heat on you.

Well, I mean, I had to have about 4,000 plus calories in the Arctic because of the cold, but probably about the same In America. But it's very difficult. I mean my body always loses weight quite quickly and then sort of stabilizes at a weight. It never seems to go then below that. So I always seem to look quite sort of thin and haggard sort of quite early on, whereas everybody else seems to look whoop dee doo fantastic, whereas I just look awful. But my body's always done that, I think because I haven't got very much body fat. So it just, it's used up quite quickly. So it doesn't matter how much I eat, my body does that and then it's stabilizes. So but in the evening, oh, I mean food was, it was like a gourmet restaurant. I would lie there and have a massage and so while the physio was doing the fronts of my legs, I was eating my main course. And then when I turned over to do the back, I had my pudding. And Jan, because again she knew I wasn't a pudding person but I needed to eat puddings to get the calories in. She would sneak in two bits of cake with lots of cream and custard and things and ice cream. She was very clever. And then literally within a few days you think, I don't care, don't care how much pudding she puts on my plate. I, I just need to get, you know, eat. Because you're so hungry and do you.

Think I know you're very open about, in your book about the fact that you had an eating disorder. Do you think that the, some of those hang ups of food still come from that, that eating disorder or is it just the fact that you're running and you know, you've got to get the calories in but you don't really want, you know, you just can't face eating. Do you think it's a, you know, one or the other or a combination maybe?

I think probably a combination. I mean, I think, I mean I definitely don't have an eating disorder anymore and I couldn't go back to that. But I think it's just, I don't feel hungry. You know how some people can feel hungry and they just really need to eat some food, you know. Now I don't perhaps because I've never allowed myself to, I don't know. But I don't really get to that stage where I feel hungry and I'm not particularly interested in food. So that's, I think the combination of that is quite difficult. But once. So it's not about the weight because otherwise, you know, if you, if, I mean, I couldn't Couldn't do events like that if I was. Didn't eat, you know, if I ran across America and didn't eat then, I mean I wouldn't, I would survive toward a week probably, if that. So I think it is a combination of both. And I hated being weighed. They weighed me every day. So they weighed me first thing in the morning and then again in the evening. And because I again, this is a hang up for my eating disorder, I don't want to see the number. I don't really mind what the number is, but I don't want to see it. So they would always put a bit of sticky paper over it. So I didn't see it. And I just said, I don't want you to see it written down either. But that's something I've never liked.

And do you then go back after you finished the event? Do you go back and kind of look at how your weight changed over the course of it or you just, you don't even at that stage, you don't want to know how that was affected by your running.

It dropped quite a lot. There was one, yeah, I did, I vaguely looked and there was one day, I know, when they were quite worried about me because my weight had dropped quite a lot. So they just said, Mimi, you know, you've got to up your food. And then they never seem to be concerned about it because it sort of stable. I mean, the scales are rubbish anyway, you know, cheap, cheerful scales. So they were constantly up and down. But yeah, it was fine, it was fine. And if they were ever worried, they would then say, you know, you've got to eat more.

Okay, brilliant. And that race, that run across America. So you were, for those people that haven't read the book or don't know so much about you, you were trying to break the record of running across America, weren't you? Which, yes, I mean, seems like an absolutely bonkers idea if I'm completely honest and I think I'm writing saying you got something like 2000ish mark, 2200 miles across.

Was that right?

In 40 days, yeah.

2215.4.

Wow.

Very important that 0.4, that 0.4. It took me a very long time.

So before we come on to what stopped you finishing that, pick out a couple of highlights from that adventure. Because the ones that sort of stuck out to me when reading the book involved a gun and also involved cowboys. But those two events weren't linked. So just tell us a little bit about what really stuck out for you and if those two things that then great.

Oh, no, they're well up there. I mean, I think the first one is that every morning, you know, my reset button was watching the sun come up. Absolutely fantastic because we started at 5 o' clock in the morning and, you know, off you go and then you're watching the sun come up for the day and that was your reset button and there was something very, very special about that. So that was fantastic. Love that. I did meet some, some extraordinary people along the way and yeah, the cowboys. So this is in Missouri. Loved Missouri. And my lovely cowboys. So they had. And they're proper cowboys with cowboy boots on everything. And they weren't very old and they had met up with my crew and so they said, well, Mimi's. In order to sign a bit of paper to say that I'd been there, they had to come and find me. So I was in a. By myself, I was having a nice time and everything was quiet, there were no cars anywhere. And then suddenly this Cadillac comes up the road, lots of noise. And I remember thinking, God, who is that? You know how you just take it out and you say, oh my God, that's awful. Anyway, bless them. They then drove on and they turned around and they came back and they just started chatting to me and. And you know, and they then drove on and I met them at the. I met them with the crew and the next morning they were there at our RV at 4:30 and in fact, I think they were there at 4 but with coffee and these great big cinnamon buns. So they'd gone into Archie, which is the next town, and they literally said to the owner of this cafe, this is what we need. So they'd opened up early to give us. I mean, how nice is that? It was just. Ah, so that was fantastic. And they were just so nice, you know, helping us find somewhere to put the RVs and. Because you have to get permission for everything. And then later on that day, there was a whole ladies from Archie who came to join me as. As I was running along. Lovely group of ladies. I mean, one of them did have was carrying a gun and I said to her, why? And it was loaded. Oh, this is good. Because of course in the UK you're not used to that sort of thing, are you? Whereas in America, I think it's sort of quite common. And I said, well, why? Why do you carry a gun? And she said, because if something happens to us, the police or the sheriff aren't going to get here in time to be able to sort it out. So I want to be able to feel that I can sort it out myself. I think, what's a. And that's a bit over the top, isn't it? Carrying a gun anyway. But it made her feel safe. So I thought, well, we'll just go with that one. And then I ran with a lovely lad who was 13 years old, staying with his grandmother. You know, I met some extraordinary people. We had an Indian medicine doctor gave us a blessing. I almost wish he hadn't now because it didn't work.

It clearly didn't work.

No, it didn't work. But no, we. I mean, beautiful. It's a very different country. You know, you're starting on the west coast and you're going all the way to the east coast and it changes so so much when you, you know, you're traveling across it. You know, you get birds, you get butterflies, you get tarantula spiders crossing the road, you get little tortoise turtles. I've rescued a couple of tortoises as we went. You know, you just see all of this extreme, extraordinary thing.

You see a level. I mean, when you drive across the country, you see a little bit when you cycle across the country or when you're bicycling across the country, to use your terminology.

Yeah.

Then you see a lot more. But when you're running or walking, you see way, way more, don't you?

Oh, yeah.

The detail is amazing. So talk us through the. Obviously you didn't get across the us. You had to retire. It was your knee that was the problem.

It was my right knee.

So tell us a little bit about that. But also that's really. That put an end to your ultra running adventures, didn't it? So tell us a little bit about how you've dealt with, with that afterwards. You know, for those people that don't know the story, explain what happened and why you didn't get across and then. And then take it from there.

Yeah. So basically, sort of my knee got to the stage where, in fact, I never thought it was my knee because the pain was everywhere else except for my knee. So it got more and more painful. So it was at the back of my leg. And then, you know, so my physio, I mean, my physios are fantastic. And they would strap me up and then the next day I had to have different type of strapping on because pain was somewhere else. And at one stage I looked like a sort of mummified. You know, my leg just was covered in the stuff. But it got to the stage where the knee issue was causing me to have a lean to the left because it was impacting my back, which was making it quite sore. So Jenny organized for me to go and see a chiropractor, an osteopath, who then, I mean, they were great. They did the treatment for free. So they sorted me out. I was able to continue running and then I had a good day of running and we'd stopped as well to have. See if I could have. Get some painkillers or to have a look at it or something. And there was no magic pill that they could give me, unfortunately. And it got to the 40th day and I woke up in the morning and I was feeling fine. I'd had a really good day. I'd done 58 miles the day before. I felt really good, nothing was hurting. And I got up and I really struggled just even to walk. So I had 16 very painful miles, lots of tears every time I met one of the support vehicles. And they were meeting me every mile at this stage because it was taking me so long just to do a mile. And. Yeah, and I just didn't know what to do because the pain was so intense that you have to ration your painkillers. You can't take lots of painkillers. And again, the crew were really good. Every time I had a painkiller, they wrote it down. So, you know, I had to wait a certain amount of time before I was allowed another one, otherwise I probably would have taken the whole packet at that stage, but I wasn't allowed anywhere near them. And, yeah, it got to the stage where, again, I think Jenny made the call, she said, right, I think we need to go and have your knee looked at properly. So we went and you had to stake out and do all of that. And we went and had an MRI scan and when the scan came back, basically I had no cartilage on the lateral side of my knee, which is. So it's bone on bone, which is what the pain was. And I had bone edema sort of below and above the knee. And the surgeon, consultant said that if you continue, the chances are that you will have a stress fracture or multiple stress fractures because your bones are so weak at this stage. He never said that I couldn't continue. He did offer me an injection, but he said they don't work, don't always work, and sometimes they take two or three days to actually work. And it might be that you go 100 miles up the road and you've got a stress fracture or you don't finish. And then he said to my husband that if she does continue, then the chances are pretty high that she'll end up going home in a wheelchair and have to have a knee replacement when she gets home. But even knowing all of that, all of that, it was the hardest thing I've ever done, actually. Really awful. Still makes me cry. I had to make that decision to over an hour to make it, had to make the decision to stop. But that says you think you're letting your crew down because they've given up all their time to support you, My sponsors, because it costs quite a lot of money to do something like that. And I felt like a complete failure because you just think, well, you know, what do I think? You know, who do I think I am? I can run across America. But I knew I could. I knew I could run across America, but my body just obviously thought, no, Mimi, you're not going to do that. So I did hide away for a bit, actually, because I just couldn't face anybody or anything. And, yeah, so as you said, that was the end of my running career as such. I mean, I can still do, you know, 5 or 10k, but I have to be careful because if I do too much, that impacts everything else still. And that was tough.

You know, what would have been the downside of getting the knee replacement? And then, you know, because there'll be some of us thinking, well, you get a knee, you finish it, you need a knee, you get a knee replacement, but then, you know, crack on and do some more.

So.

So is the knee replacement a really bad. Does it have a lot of other ramifications?

Well, I don't think, personally, I mean, I know there are people out there who run with knee replacements, but it wasn't so much that. I mean, that was. Well, I didn't know about that, but at that time when I was making my decision, I didn't know about that. For me, it was the pain. The pain was so. I can't even describe it. It was so excruciating that the thought I only had 13 more days to do so I had to run for another, just literally two weeks. And the thought of repeating what I'd done the day before and being in that much pain was just not bearable. And I'm sure some people thought, well, you know, if that had been me, I would have continued through the pain and I would have done this and I would have done that. But in that moment, I made the right decision because perhaps I couldn't then have cycled or, and I think, again, you want to hold on to your body parts for as long as possible rather than have it. You only get two chances of having knee replacements and I don't know whether there's much research as to how long a knee replacement will last in an ultra runner. I don't know. You've got Richard Donovan, I think is. I don't think he had a knee replacement. Not sure what he. But he's now running across America, having to. He's had things done to his knees and stuff, so. But I'm not sure he's had them replaced. I'm not sure. But it'd be interesting in a few years time. People go, oh, we'll just have a knee replacement, that's all right. So we can carry on running.

But, yeah, it'd be interesting to see how it lasts. Yeah. And I know for a while you were worried that you would never run again. So how does it feel to now be able to get back out and do your 5 and 10Ks?

Lovely. Absolutely lovely. The first time I went out for a run, I was really, really nervous because I thought, what happens if the pain is there? And, you know, I don't enjoy it. And it was so nice when it wasn't. So it is. I mean, I only do it once or possibly twice a week now. No more than that. And I'm very slow now, which is lovely, but I don't mind that either. No, it's great. It is great.

And one of the things I love about your book is that it then goes back. Obviously, you'd run Lands End to John o', Groats, but it doesn't finish around the trauma of not getting across America. It then takes you on the journey of cycling, Lands End to John o'.

Groats.

So tell me a little bit about. And then going into triathlon as well. So let's start with cycling. Tell me a little bit about what bringing cycling into your life has meant to you, because I know you've also been recently off cycling across Argentina with Minshin, who's also been on the podcast. So tell us a little bit about how cycling has. Has helped.

Oh, massively, Absolutely massively. I didn't think it would. It was quite interesting because I remember years ago, somebody said to me, you know, Mimi, you need to think about what's going to happen when you can't run. I said, well, not yet. So when it then happens, I spoke to friend of mine, Mark Cobain, who had been through similar issues, and I knew that if I Spoke to him, he wouldn't give me fluffy white towels and, you know, say things that actually weren't true. And so he suggested that I do ride across Britain, and to be quite honest with you, terrified me that, you know, initially I looked at that thought, oh, no. I say, I can't do that. You know, cycling that far. I mean, you know, you're happy to run it. I mean, that was easy. But cycling it or biking it, oh, no. Anyway, I then looked up a little bit closer. I thought, oh, but why not Mimi? Anyway, so I signed up for it, and I didn't even have a road bike at that stage. I had a hybrid bike. So I was so a runner, you know, on a bike. At this stage, all my kit was running. I think I had one pair of cycling trousers. That was it. So I signed up for this and I think I did. 100 miles was my longest rise before I did it. So training really wasn't very good at all. Learning how to clip in, nightmare. I don't know why people want to clip into their bike. You know, I tried it the first time and I fell off five times. So I literally had a complete meltdown and I took the bike back to the shop and I went, that's it. I want pedals put on so I can wear my trainers. So that's what I did. And I then tried again a few months later, but it was amazing. Very different from running, but the experience I loved because it was camping and, you know, again, camaraderie. You're meeting lots of people and we're all doing the same thing.

So again, it's the Deloitte.

Yes, Deloitte. Right across Britain. Yeah, it's like. It's a walking village. Absolutely. The food. Oh, my goodness. Never tasted it. I mean, it is so well organized. And I. Yeah, I did that. And I thought, Mimi, you know, okay, that's it. Now, what else are we going to do? Because I think when I first started cycling, I would cycle past somebody and this is on my hybrid, and I'd see a runner and I'd slow down. Not that I was going very fast, because I'm not a fast cyclist. I flow down to chat to the runner, and in my head, I was thinking, I'd far rather be doing that than doing. Being sitting on a bike. So I did have to have a serious word with myself and just say, mimi, you can't do that like that anymore. So it's cycling or it's nothing. So pull yourself together. So, yeah, now. Love it.

Brilliant. And I think I picked up from maybe it was listening to you on a podcast that you said that on a bike you can have mechanical issues. Now, clearly when you're running, you can have body mechanical issues as you experience. But how did you get over that fear? Because I know it's a fear for a lot of people that get into cycling. What if I break down? How am I going to do this? How did you overcome that fear?

Well, I learned how to do basic things. So, you know, first time I had to change a puncture nightmare that was. I mean, why? Yeah, absolutely awful. And I still worry about it, but the way I've sort of got over it now, two things. The first one is, I think, well, with ultra running, if you get yourself into a situation, something happens, you deal with it at the time, you know, there is always a solution and you just deal with it and you get on with it. So I thought, well, if something happens with my bikeling, it'll be the same thing. I just had to sort it out. I mean, so I've just done past the North Coast 500 and there was. I did a very bad gear change and at one and the chain literally stuck together. I couldn't move it, couldn't move anything. So I thought. And we were in the middle of nowhere, so I thought, okay, what are we going to do here? Mimi just literally yanked the train chain. I mean, it took me. I thought it was going to break anyway. It didn't. But you're in a situation, you have no choice. I couldn't walk the bike even, because it wouldn't go round. So it was either a case of, right, we've got to pull the chain and if it breaks, then I have spare links. Would have to Google how to do it.

I was just going to say, do you know how to use it? Because I carry those spare links. But I've never had to actually do anything with them.

No, but I am now. I booked in on the 17th of May. I'm going to a mechanical course. I'm doing mechanics course, so. So I know how to do lots of different things. I'm tubeless now, which I prefer.

Yeah, I think anything that minimizes the opportunity to change a puncture is good, isn't it?

It is, yeah.

But you can. I did have a blowout. I've ridden tubeless for a while. I did have a proper blowout on a well a couple of times, once in a sportive and. And the kind mechanics fixed it, but at least you could use the CO2 canisters. Just to keep you going until you got to the mechanics, which you never would have been able to do. So that was another advantage of tubeless, because it kind of. It takes a lot longer to go down. But, yeah, it is a faff if you get proper puncture with it.

But it is, yeah.

The chances are much, much less on.

They don't say that. No, I'm not. I'm not, not saying anything at this stage because I'll probably go back to this weekend and have a puncture, so. Oh, no. But I still carry inner tubes, so if necessary, we have a puncher. You just put an inner tube in.

Yeah, exactly.

And Dynaplugs.

Yes, yes. Although I really struggled with them, I didn't make a lot of success with them, but yes, no, but the theory is good.

I love them.

And so you then set yourself this challenge of getting into triathlon, but getting into triathlon whilst you really weren't able to swim. Front crawl, I don't think, were you? So tell us a little about how you got through that fear of swimming and how you managed to get through doing triathlons.

Well, I think again, when I didn't complete America and once I'd sort of recovered, which took quite a long time, I thought, right, if I go on holiday or I go somewhere and the only form of exercise I can do is swimming, I need to be able to do the front crawl. And I had this fear of water. So I put it out there on social media. This is what I was going to do, because I think once you put it out there, you have to do it. And anyway, lovely guy Kevin contacted me from the tri club locally and he said, I'll teach you how to swim, Mimi. And I mean, I could do breaststroke, but with my head firmly above the water, I didn't particularly like going underneath the water and I certainly didn't like open water swimming or anything like that. Absolutely, absolutely terrified me. So we met in the swimming pool. I didn't even have a swimming hat on. You know, I do think I'd got. I got a swimming costume at that stage rather than a bikini. So I had my hair all clipped up in these funny things so I could see. And I did have some goggles. So he said, right, Mimi, show me what you can do. And I said, no, no, no, Kevin, no, can't do anything, literally. And I very briefly told him and he said, okay, we're going to start, like blowing bubbles in the water. And I remember putting my face in the water and instantly coming up Going, oh. Oh, God. You know, it was that sort of total panic and all I'd done is put my face in the water. My hair hadn't even got wet at this stage. Anyway, he was very, very patient. He taught me how. Are you a swimmer?

Yes, yeah, triathlete. So, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So to do sink downs. Okay, sink downs. When somebody who knows how to do them, does them. Oh, lovely. They just blow out the bubbles and they sink to the bottom of the pool. So we started in the sort of, you know, the medium length depth, and then we progressed to the deep end. And, yeah, my sink down is absolutely hysterical. I would blow and I would blow and I wasn't sinking, and then I would turn upside down so my bottom would be sitting in the air and I still wasn't sinking. Anyway, I eventually got the hang of. I was useless. But, yeah, so I overcame this fear. It was not pleasant. I did lots of videos and things of me when I finished each session. And my daughter said, mum, that is so embarrassing. She said, have you looked at yourself when you do it? I said, but it's reality, darling. You know, not looking good. And I remember when I did my first hundred meters. Oh, yes. You know, I could hardly breathe by the time I finished. I mean, I really was struggling to get to that last. Get to the finish line of that 100 meters. But when I got there, I was so pleased and I got home and bless him, my husband had printed out 100 meters.

I was going to ask, did you get a little badge that you could sew onto your swimming bag?

I mean, how nice. That is bad. But swimming is an idea. I did. I then did my first triathlon. I nearly didn't turn up. I was pool based. And, yeah, I just thought, no, I can't do this. And my husband said, meeny, look what else you've done in your life. You can go and do this. And he came along later and I was so glad when I got out of that pool. Oh, somebody touched my leg. You know, when they touch your legs, they want to go past you. I said, just let it get to the end first, then you can do. I wanted to sit there going, joe, off you go. Overtake me. Everybody, off you go. But, yeah, I did it. So I was very proud of myself.

Have you continued to get into, you know, Louise persuading you to do these long open water swims that she's absolutely not.

No, she can keep those. I don't care. I said, louis, I'll do anything with you, but I Won't do. No, she knows I wouldn't do it. I. I hadn't swum for ages. I mean, I did it for a long time. I did open water swimming with friends and I really, you know, I did enjoy it, but I find it very difficult to fit it all in because I also play golf as well. So it's, it's because it's a whole morning if you go and swim, because we've got to go down to the sea or the river or whatever it is. I will do some in the summer, but at the moment, no, I haven't swam and I don't miss it, actually. Actually, I'm not a natural fish.

Well, and I was going to mention golf, actually, because I'm also a golfer and I don't think I often say that triathlon or endurance sports and golf don't make good bedfellows. They just seem to. I seem to be exhausted from one and then I play badly and then I don't enjoy my golf and it's like, oh, so are you a really keen golfer and you play a lot of golf nowadays?

I do, yes. And my husband goes, oh, another sport. He said, you know, he's not golf leader. Yeah, no, he is. He does play golf. That's why I took it up, actually, so that we had something that we could go and do together. But, yes, but I get quite competitive with myself, not with him. So, yes, I got myself my handicap and then of course, I want to see my handicap going down. So I do play in a few competitions badly, but I play.

And do you find that that complements your other sport or does it not really make any difference?

I don't think it makes a difference, but it's exercise and it's. Actually, there's something. I mean, golf is the most frustrating game in the entire world. And everybody goes, oh, gol. It's really boring, isn't it? All you're doing is hitting a ball, but when you hit that ball and it pings properly and it goes for miles, you go, yes, that was a proper golf shot. And then the next one, of course, you duff and it goes into the ditch. But you play it for those fantastic shots that you do and you just think, oh, I'm quite good at golf now, you know. But yeah, I think it's sort of. It's a good way to, you know, go out and do. I mean, I love it. You know, you're basically walking about 10k, aren't you? Every time you go to 18 holes, it's social Which I love as well. And who knew that everything. You know, you can get so much pink in golf. Yeah.

Excellent. Well, I really enjoyed reading your book. I think it was excellent. But I always ask people what books they found inspiring, you know, books that you find yourself recommending or books that had an impact on you. So are there any particular books? Don't have to be around endurance sport, but obviously we're all interested in ones that are as well. Are there any books that particularly had an impact on you?

No. You're going to hate me now. I don't really do a huge amount of reading, which is awful, isn't it? Because when I'm not running or cycling or whatever it is, I'm sort of doing other things. So I don't really have a book.

It doesn't have to be a book, actually. So any, like, podcasts or documentaries or even a film, anything that you can sort of throw out there that people might find useful?

Well, I think one of the podcasts that I love is the Her Spirit podcast, which is, again, I mean, that's. I'm not doing that just because it's Louise, but I mean, I really enjoyed that. And again, I don't tend to listen to masses. Masses of podcasts, or if I do, I always forget which ones I've listened to. It's awful, isn't it? But I did enjoy that because when they did a series on doing triathlons, I found that incredibly helpful. But it's all about, you know, they interview various women. So, you know, you're hearing, you know, women who play football or rugby. You know, it's not just running related. So, yeah, I mean, I'm awful at that. I'm really bad at remembering names, so I do apologize for this, but I just love listening to or hearing about other people and how they've overcome stuff and what they do. And you just think, don't ever complain about your life because, you know, they've overcome this three, four times harder than what I've had to go through. And yet they've come out the other end and they're still smiling and they're cycling, running, whatever it is. So I think from that point of view, it always makes me think, well, Mimi, you know, you just couldn't run and it was hard. But, you know, you can always, always turn a negative into a positive and come out the other end.

So, yeah, I love the High Spirit podcast. And I said the same to Louise. I said. I said, I'm never quite sure whether I'm supposed to Be listening to it. I'm not sure whether it's just for girls, but. But I really enjoy it. It's really, really good. So one final question for you, Mimi, because it's been an absolute pleasure chatting to you. What are you looking forward to in the future? What, you know, what goals have you got set or what adventures have you got planned that you're really excited about or maybe haven't got planned, but would love to still do?

Well this year. I am quite excited actually this year. So this year I turned 60, so I thought, and my poor husband, he's never going to see you. So I've set myself lots of different challenges. So the first one was Argentina. I've just done London to Paris because many years ago as well, I Suddenly realized, actually 2005, I, along with three friends, we ran the Paris Marathon and then we continued running and a week later we finished by running the London Marathon. So we ran from Paris to London. So I've just now done it in reverse on a bike. So that was quite fun. And then this weekend I've got something called the west, the Wild west country. So 800 plus kilometer self sufficiency bike packing race. I won't be racing. Can I just say, is that a.

Camping on the sort of side of the road type thing where you.

Yeah, that's a bivvy.

Yeah.

Yeah, you can, to be fair, you can stay in B and Bs if you want. But this is the first time, I mean, I've done lots of bike packing, but this is the first time where it's been, you know, an event where there aren't set distances. You know, if you're bike packing, you tend to say, I'm going to go cycle this amount every day. So I'm doing that. And that really is training for something called the Pan Celtic. So the Pan Celtic is over one and a half thousand miles and the aim for that, this is a journey so it doesn't really have to be done in a certain time. But my aim or most people's aims is to try and do it in nine days. When you say that, you think, oh, that's a long time. Well, that distance over nine days is going to be with ferries and everything else. But I have to finish on the 19th or early on the 20th because they have the after party on the 20th and that is my 60th birthday.

Oh, wow.

So I have to, I have to do that. Yeah.

Well, a friend of mine did the Pan Celtic last year and I mean he's a Very strong cyclist. And I can't, I'd be wrong to say what he did it in, but he, he was up in the. I think he was in the top three finishes. So he was doing it in, I don't know, three days or something like that. But I, I think he's planning to do it again this year. So I will make sure that he makes a beeline to buy you at the after party to buy you a drink for your. For your 60th.

Absolutely.

That actually last. I know that the route changes each year for that, doesn't it?

Yes, it does. So this year we're going across and we're doing islands, we're doing the Wild west, you know, the sort of the Atlantic Wild West. What's it called? Wild Atlantic Way.

Yes. Oh, that'll be incredible.

Yeah. So it'll be stunning. But we're doing south to north. We're not going all the way up, but we're doing south, whereas the route is usually done north, south.

And do they give you all the route beforehand because. Or is it just quite last minute that you get the route?

No, no, we've already got the route. So you then start planning and you mark out all the stops and the. Yeah.

And the bus shelters that you can sleep in.

I know, but it's awful, isn't it? You spend hours Googling, you know, and you know, your little man, you know, in Google Maps searching for the bus shelter and then you call, you think, well, every Tom, Dick and Harry on the race has found that same bus shelter.

It's an interesting question, actually. So one of the things that. So I have signed up for 100 mile ultramarathon the Dartmoor Way.

Yeah.

Later on this year. And one of the things that has intrigued me is the fact that I'm gonna have to run through the night, which I've never had to do before you. I'm sure you've done that hundreds of times. So. But have you cycled through the night and is that a different experience?

I haven't cycled through the night, but I've started a race at 2 o' clock or an audax event. It's 2 o' clock in the morning. And that was actually, do you know, it was really lovely because there's nobody else around, just a few drunks and things who think it's very funny. They've seen a bike list of cycling past. But yeah, I mean, I quite like. I don't mind cycling or running in the dark, you know, if you're gonna if you're doing a race, you sort of run into the dark so you naturally just get used to it and, yeah, I quite like it.

It sounds slightly scary to me. When the ultra runners talk about hallucinating and all that sort of stuff, you're thinking, hallucinating on the bike. That sounds dangerous to me.

Yeah, no, absolutely. I'll probably get off and bivvy at that point.

Yes.

I mean, I've got distances that I want to try and do each day, but, you know, it really all depends on how you feel. You can have a plan, like with running, and then you just adapt it as you go along and if you don't make what you want to do, it doesn't really matter because it's all a. It's the journey, really, isn't it? You know, it is.

It's all part of the adventure, isn't it?

Yeah.

Mimi, it's been an absolute pleasure chatting to you. I wish you continued success in your unbelievable adventures. I think it's. I think it's absolutely amazing. And if you ever want to come and play golf up in Rutland, we've got. There's a very good golf course here called Luffingham Heath, so. So I'd be more than happy to show you and your husband around Loughnham Heath for a game of golf. I'm not sure I can keep up with you on the. On the other adventures, but the golf, hopefully I can show you around.

That would be fantastic. And good luck with your hundred.

Thank you very much. Thank you. No, it's been an absolute pleasure and yeah, good luck with it all.

No, thank you. I've loved it. Thank you very much.

If you want to find out more about Mimi, the best place to go to is marvellousmimi.com but on Twitter, Instagram and I think also Facebook. She is arvellous. Mimi. Wow. What an amazing lady. You know, she's just achieved so much coming into running relatively late, you know, after. After giving birth to three children and then coming into running and going from running a mile on the treadmill to signing up to mds. I mean, there's something about that race that just sounds amazing, but it really inspires people to take that huge step from running a few miles to something monumental. And a good friend of mine, Dan Kirby, just done exactly the same thing and, you know, he's done phenomenally well at it, you know, but it was the first race that Kerry Sutton did, Luke Tabersky did, you know, just. It's just an inspiring race. But where that has Taken her, you know, going on to run, you know, double Spartathlons and Comrades and Grand Union Canals and Badwaters and all of those. I mean, those races are phenomenally hard in one direction, but both, both there and back is absolutely bonkers. It made me laugh, actually, when I was chatting to Kerry Sutton after she Crude for me at the Arc50. I said, oh, you know, I think I'd really like to do Lands End to John Groats. Do you. Do you fancy it? She was like, right, yeah. When are we running it? Like, no, no, no, no, no. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. I was talking about cycling it, not running it. So Kerry and also Mimi just have a totally different mindset. And the fact that they immediately think of running Lands End to John o' Groats before they think cycling. In fact, Mimi even said it felt more challenging to cycle it than it did to run it is absolutely phenomenal. So I think it's really interesting that she doesn't use any of the gels or any kind of sports nutrition. It's all proper food. I thought that was. That was a really good takeaway, particularly as you're. As you're trying to run further and further, but also how she kind of is aware of how the eating disorder impacts her. So not wanting to know her weight while she. While she's on an event, even though it's really important to deal with it. And of course, we all know as endurance athletes, this thing has, you know, this. These sports have a significant impact on our loved ones. So I thought it was really interesting that she really kind of embraced getting her husband involved when initially she was reluctant to do that, and how actually he's really enjoyed that and how he's become an amazing support crew for her. So just loads and loads of takeaways there. And then, of course, having that strength of mindset to go, I'm petrified of the water. I can't even face putting my face in the water or getting my hair wet. And yet I am going to learn to swim because I'm determined to do a triathlon. Again, just absolutely inspiring stuff. And I know that she's just going to continue to do more and more of these incredible challenges as she goes, as we've heard. So I'm sure you got loads of takeaways yourself from that conversation, but I know I really, really enjoyed chatting to Mimi Anderson. So go check her out online. Follow up, you'll see some amazing photos, like when she was doing the cycling across Argentina. And yeah, I hope you found some amazing takeaways. And in the meantime, until the next episode, keep on training. And remember, this podcast was sponsored by 33 fuel, so rethink your sports nutrition with 33 fuel award winning natural sports nutrition for your performance, health and a fitter Future. It's the 33 Fuel Fuel Osophy. Get yours at 33fuel.com and if you use the discount code Tribeathlon or the link in the show notes, you'll get a discount at the checkout. If you enjoyed this podcast, please do review it and share it because it helps other people find what we think is really valuable learning lessons from amazing athletes. So please do that. You can also find the whole back catalogue@tribathlon.com and you can also find out about the Tribeathlon app, which helps people find events find people to train with and enjoy their events through their tribe. So check out tribathlon. Com.