Paving the Way with Stacey Copeland

Foreign.

I'm charlie redding. And I'm laura siddall and this is the tribathlon podcast.

We've done incredible things. I had role models by then who it was impossible for me to say women weren't capable of things because I'd seen women doing unbelievable things.

That was Stacey Copeland and this episode is Paving the way. Hey, Sid, how you doing?

I'm very well, thank you, Charlie, how are you? I mean, we're going to talk everything Aero today, aren't we? I'm surprised I'm not looking at a picture with you sitting on your bike in your new dialed in aero position.

Well, actually if it had been an hour ago, I would have been. I was dialed in, I was doing my Zwift time trial, trying to keep in my air, actually, I think it's.

Yeah.

So why are we talking about aero? Do you want to explain?

Well, actually, first of all, is that like the Zwift Racing League on a Thursday?

Yeah, it's the WTRL time trial thing.

And I hope you were in position because that's one of my bugbears with people that using Zwift is that they then sit upright on their TT bike or they use their road bike on the trainer. And it's like, it's a perfect opportunity for you to really focus in on good technique, good skills, good aero position without kind of. Yeah, you still got to look up the road, so don't put your head down. That's another key point because you still got to pretend that you are riding outside side. But it's a really good opportunity to practice that. But yes, we are talking about aero position because you went to see the awesome Matt Bottrell last week and I'd actually seen him the week before when I was back in the UK and I've worked with him. I work, I mean he works with my coach, Julie Dibbon. So we kind of speak fairly regularly. But you've got. Yeah, all new, all new aero position.

Yeah. Well, it sounds like I've got a similar setup to you because he, I, I went, I went to see him with just the kind of the how. However, the giant Trinity bike arrived and he instantly looked at it, went, oh yes, we have to change the front end of that. And I knew full well he was going to. But having seen the setup that you'd got, I, it made me think, you know what I need to get, I need to change to Di2 as well. So it was like, so bless that. I mean, I thought I was going to be in there for about three hours. They knew full well I was going to be there for a lot longer than that. So I got there at 2 o', clock, didn't leave till half past seven, I think. But they completely deconstructed everything to do with the bike because obviously to add DI. I didn't know how much work adding DI2 was, but seems it's quite a lot of work.

Yeah. Did they have. Do they have all the parts? Because there is a, like, world global crisis on bike parts at the moment.

Well, that was the amazing thing. So I was, I was umming and ahhing as to whether to switch to Di2s, and I was chatting to my cycling posse the weekend before and because I'd spoken to Rutland Cycling just to sound it out and they said, well, there's no point in quoting because we can't get the parts. And. And one of the guys I work with works in, in Sigma Sports and he was saying, you know, I was just chatting to him and he was saying, part. Di2 parts and similar are trading at the moment on ebay more than their retail price for secondhand parts. And it's absolutely crazy. So I sent Matt a message going, I don't suppose you can. Can do it when I'm there, can you? And he said, well, I've got most of the parts and I could. I'm pretty sure I can get the other bits. So, yeah, amazingly he could, he could do. He could do it all. And so, yeah, I've now got Di2s on the, on the TT bike, which is brilliant. It makes such a difference having gears on the bullhorns, doesn't it?

Definitely, definitely.

So. So, yeah, But I was so impressed with him. He's got a young lad, George, I can't remember George's surname, but he's a top cyclist as well. I think he won the Wales Welsh Nationals, I think. But, yeah, really fascinating getting you into that aero position. God, my first ride after it, my shoulders were screaming at me.

What did he give you? Did he give you. So that's the other thing. When you're on the turbo, did he give you all the drills and stuff to do to kind of strengthen those muscles and things?

He has. And you've just reminded me, sent them to me in an email and I haven't looked at that email since he sent it to me.

There you go.

I do need to do that.

Yeah.

But, yes, he's given me some drills. He gave me some drills to do on the turbo and on the bike, but amazingly, that on, yes, on that Saturday my shoulders were agony. But I rode on the Turbo on Tuesday and again tonight and I'm already noticing that they're loosening up a huge amount, so. But how are you? So you're now out in Lanzarote, aren't you?

I am, yeah.

How are you getting on out there?

Well, we've had a few technical issues, haven't we? I'm in an Airbnb and as always they've got probably sporadic wifi and Internet connection. Yeah, look, I've never been here before so. And obviously everyone talks about it as being the Mecca of triathlon training locations. Why is that?

Why do they call it the mecca?

I don't know, to be honest, from my first two days.

You've got to find out then, haven't you?

Look, yeah, I arrived yesterday morning. I just did an easy spin like built the bike, easy spin, got the, got to the shop, got the food and got my bearings yesterday, which was pretty be actually pretty nice just to have that time. And then today I did just an easy run along the beach promenade which is quite. So I'm staying at Costa Tagiza I think it is, which is on the kind of south. Where are we? Southeast side, I guess a little bit of of the island near Sands beach which is one of the, the popular training resorts. So on the opposite side to Club La Santa, which is the other popular training resort. And I'm just in an Airbnb because it was far cheaper and more cost efficient for me and that's even with adding in the pool costs and stuff like that. So swimming at a lovely outdoor 50 meter pool which is heated, whereas I think Sands beach is not heated at the moment. And then yeah, got out and rode this afternoon and tried to do a bit of see a bit of the island and I was just, I didn't know whether to laugh or cry at one point because you know, I'd just been in to see Matt Bottral and again sort of spent however much money that I didn't want to think about on this lovely new front end custom made for my factor with the plate to attach the, the drag to zero bars. And then for the last year obviously because Matt works with my coach Julie, been working on position anyway and you know, we were all, Julie, Matt and I were all really happy with the work. I'd made it before the going to see Matt and getting the front end of the bike sort of adjusted and then obviously afterwards and then I think for like 5% of my ride today I could physically get onto the aero bars because 95% I was just trying to hold the bike upright and like. And I was just more. I just, Yeah, I wasn't sure whether to laugh or cry, going, I've just spent all this money on this front end. All I want to do is like, get into aero bars and just ride my bike and enjoy it. And. Right. And this. The landscape's pretty stunning. It's quite kind of Luna esque. It's, you know, it's lava fields. I guess it's sort of got that Kona feel, which is probably why a lot of people enjoy it as well or like it as well as a training base. There were some stunning bits of coastline with like the, the waves crashing against the lava rock and stuff like that and. But yeah, just was trying to keep the bike upright. I think I only had to unclip twice as the wind battered me across the road and I needed my leg out as stability so that I didn't come off. And that was twice. I thought that was quite a good going. But the funny thing is I don't know if this is a normal day or if it's a light day or if I have no, like relative ranking of wind scale. All I know is Lanzarote is windy and I was prepared for that. So, like, it was a great ride and half of it didn't matter and I was like, yeah, this is fine. I can totally ride in the wind. I just can't kind of do perhaps how I would like to ride in the wind. But yeah, so we will see over the next two weeks what happens.

I remember when, when I interviewed Nikki Bartlett when she won Lanzarote, she ended up riding with a disc wheel and she said that it was pretty windy then. I mean, that must be. Must be incredibly difficult in that the.

Rear, the rear isn't the issue. So you're totally fine riding a disc wheel because all your weight is on the saddle and goes through the disc. It's the front wheel that causes the issues in the wind more so is what I'm saying, is what I know and experience. Obviously I haven't like Kona, they ban discs anyway. But I think that's the crosswinds coming down from Harvey and just with the number of people. But it's actually, if you talk to any of the wheel companies, most of them will say the disc isn't. The disc actually adds more stability in the wind. And it's the front wheel, it's the depth of the front wheel. So actually you could ride a Disc. But you want kind of a shallow. A really shallow front wheel. And today as well, it wasn't. It was the front of the bike that was getting that. That was the bit I was having to control the. The back of the bike. I didn't feel I would. Was getting swung or buffeted at all that way. And I think that's, you know, that's the same with the disc. So. Yeah, and it's. Do you know what, if you look at it in terms of Ironman Lanzarote course. So I rode a bit of the course today on my ride and I might regret saying this, but there's nothing on that section that's super steep or super hard from a climbing perspective. But a lot of it, there's just no sort of flat. It's kind of constant gradual gradients. Just long, kind of. Not that long, but they're just long because you into the. When you got the wind as well. Or it's just that constant rolling and stuff like that. It's not. I don't know. Yeah, you climb a lot. I'll have to look at my, my training file. You do climb a lot, but it's not the mountainous climbs that you'd think of in the Pyrenees or the Alps and that sort of thing. It's. It's a lot more like the whole island is just one big kind of.

Well, I went there when I was a. About 20 with a girlfriend at the time. And obviously we saw in a slightly different way to exploring it now. But I do remember going out to the lava fields and going. I think we went up the upper volcano of sorts.

But.

But yeah, and I remember them saying that they filmed one of the Bond. At least one of the Bond films was filmed there. I have a feeling it was Moonraker or something like along those lines. So it is an amazing landscape. When is Ironman Lanzarote?

3Rd of July, I think it is.

And are you planning to stay in Lanzarote until then or is that.

No. So I'm just here for. So I was just looking at the elevation I did climb today, which elevation gained was 1400 meters.

Over how long?

Over 115k.

Okay.

It's a fair bit.

It's a reasonable bit.

Yeah. No, so I am planning just out here for two weeks and then I'll go back to Girona and got potentially a race at the end of May in Austria and then kind of potentially come back out here, depending how I feel about racing in the. On the course and the conditions.

Well, it sounds fantastic. And I can imagine it's a. It's a brilliant place to be training.

Yeah. Do you know, I think I'm. I can't work out if I'm lucky or not at the moment. I'll rephrase that. I'm very lucky being here. I know that. That's not what I meant, but obviously I'm staying in. I think what would normally be of quite a tourist area, like when I ran along the beachfront this morning, you've got that classic, like all the bars and restaurants, like, just lining that beachfront. But I mean, at that time in the morning they were closed. Maybe they'd be open in peak season still at that time in the morning. I don't know. But off that, obviously a lot of things are shut and closed at the moment because the island hasn't really, you know, like the uk. You can't travel here from the UK and stuff like that. So on the one hand, it's. It's really sad to see like. Like the pool that we. The pool that I was swimming at has. Is attached to a hotel, but the hotel is closed. And it's a huge hotel, but they've been, you know, they've kindly opened the pool up for people to use, which is great. I'm in an Airbnb, but I don't think. I think there's only kind of limited space and the hotels are only just starting to open up. So it's kind of sad to see, like, as a tourist place, not just for holidaymakers as well, not just like training. It is pretty sort of, I guess, decimated. But at the same time, I think I'm quite lucky because I'm not sure I could cope with being quite central tourist location and British. So I think I've lucked out, kind of.

I think when there were banging tunes going down at four in the morning, you probably wouldn't have been thinking, oh, I'm really pleased the tourists are back.

Exactly. Totally.

So, yeah, one thing that did cross my radar actually this week is a new book that's just come out. So Damien hall, the awesome ultra runner, that was a previous guest, actually, since he was a guest on the podcast, he went and set a. I know it was just before he was a guest on the podcast, he set an FKT on the. On the Pennine Way. So he's just released a book called in it for the Long Run, Breaking Records and Getting fkt. So I'm really looking forward to reading that. Actually. No, I'm not gonna read it.

I was about to say the crucial point is, is it. Or is it an actual physical book?

And this is why I haven't.

This is why I haven't bought it yet. I messaged him and it is coming out as an audiobook. So if you want to read it, you can get it on the Kindle or paperback now. But if you want it as an audiobook, hold fire because I'm under instruction from Damien that it is coming out as an audiobook, which will be amazing. But it just kind of reminded me because Damien hall is also one of the sponsored athletes by Precision Hydration, who are obviously amazing. Sponsor of the podcast. Podcast. And when I was speaking to Damien, Damien was saying how. How that kind of the bespoke hydration plan, the position precision hydration put together for him has really helped him. So it was just interesting because that's definitely a book I want to read. But he's just another person that's being helped by actually. And I was using that Precision Hydra. I was using the 1500 on my Zwift this evening because I sweat so much on that flipping.

Yeah.

Time trial.

So. Yeah.

So look out for that book.

I'm looking, I'm doing. I'm going to do some studies while I'm out here doing some training with Claire Fudge and the Precision hydration guys. Just on sweat loss and stuff like that. Pre and post rides. I just need to find a pair of scales first, but we'll do that over the weekend.

Can you get a sweat test while you're out there or have they not got anywhere?

No, we're gonna. I'm gonna do like the online one and I'm gonna talk to Claire. And then we were trying to get it done when I was in the UK but just timing didn't work out. But we're going to do kind of. I think I need to read it, but I'm assuming it's kind of weigh yourself pre ride any bottles and then log how much you drink and eat and stuff. And then weigh yourself, post ride and work out what the. What the damage is sort of thing. Um, don't quote me on that. I will give you more information when I've done it. And I've actually read the email.

It is quite funny though, since we did that and the Blow interview, I've caught myself noticing sweat marks on people's cycling kit and I'm like, oh, that's a salty sweater there, you know, And I'm like, no, I'm not going to tell him.

Don't.

But it is Quite amusing.

I tell you what, though, somebody talk about books. Somebody's book I would want to read is today's interviewer because Stacy Copeland, who we chatted to, her ability to tell a story in a tale and get messages across would. Is just phenomenal. And you know, that would be. I wonder if she's ever thought about putting it. Trying to capture everything she's done in writing.

You're right, it would be a brilliant book. And another one that would be a brilliant book. And I've told him he needs to write it is Matt Bottrill.

He's got some brilliant stories with all.

The stuff that he knows. It would be a fantastic book. In terms of advice.

Yeah, he. I reckon he'd have to get like. Get a. Do you call it a ghostwriter or someone or somebody.

What are you saying about Matt's.

No, I think Matt just needs to talk like you get. And then someone just capture that.

Like, I think it's brilliant.

Yeah. I mean, probably the same with Stacy. She just needs to. Needs to talk and let someone else just capture it in word.

Yeah. But I do agree, I think that. I think a book from Stacy would be brilliant. So on that note, so let's lead into the interview with Stacy Copeland. And don't forget, I'll have a discount code for you for precision hydration at the end of the podcast. Stacy Copeland has represented her country in both football and boxing. In 2018, she made history when she became the first ever British woman to win the Commonwealth title. And as a footballer, she represented England under 18, played in the FA cup final, and has also played in both the US and in Sweden. And as an amateur boxer, Stacey won the European silver medal and national championship. And as a professional, she won the Commonwealth title. So Sid and I were really excited to chat to her about, you know, breaking through in two different women's sports, really against the odds, the perceptions of those sports for women and how they've changed over time. Also her now her new purpose, her drive to help others through the charity Pave the way. Stacy's absolutely brilliant to listen to. Full of energy. And I know you're going to really enjoy listening to the interview with from Sid and I with Stacy Copeland. So, Stacy, thank you so much for coming onto the Tri Bathloom podcast. Really looking forward to chatting to you. And Sid, welcome back as well. Let's kick things off for those people that don't know that much about you. Stacey, do you want to tell us a bit about your story? Tell us, you know, how you Got into playing football and how you got into boxing. So tell us your story.

So I don't really know how I got into football. I mean, my family, like I say, the crap at football, all of them. So it wasn't really an obvious influence, but it was just. I don't know, it just appealed to me. When I was at school and all the boys were playing at playtime on the playground, I just felt, you know, I just really wanted to join in and I did.

Just. Sorry. Jumping in then, did you? You didn't get to play. It wasn't a sport at the school for girls kind of thing. It was just that you saw the boys playing on the playground at lunch.

Girls at all? Yeah, Perfectly appropriate question, because there weren't any. In fact, although the ban on women's football was lifted in 1971, in this country, the FA, the Football association, didn't officially recognise until 1993 for girls and women. So there was a rule that you couldn't play with the boys. But also because the FA weren't involved, there wasn't any structure, there were no girls leagues teams, there wasn't a setup and no infrastructure or anything like that. So it did make it very, very difficult to play at all. So that's hence why, for me, it began just in the playground, just joining in with the boys. It wasn't a structured thing. It was, you know, you. Jumpers down the goal posts at break time and. And that was it. And then they did have, you know, the P. Teachers. Well, one of the teachers was saying, you know, we've got. We've got a. Like a. Not a trial but, you know, a training session for the school team and I went along and I got picked and, you know, played in this first game for the team. And, you know, we had this horrible bright green kit with this thick white collar and I got some, you know, I had my first pair of footy boots that my dad had bought me. From where? Woolworths, which were the heaviest thing I've probably ever. Might as well have worn a pair of ski boots.

You started your weight training early, but.

He obviously didn't have any foresight that was actually going to be a proper player. So I'll get them. Should be all right. You only play a couple of games, but I just loved it. And the minute the whistle went, it felt amazing to be in what felt like a real game of football, because obviously from the playground, with just, you know, you shove your bag down or whatever for post and then there was real goals, there was A real referee. We were in real kits, you know, it just felt amazing and. But then part way through the game, a parent and a coach on the other team realized that I was a girl and just shouted across the pitch, you know, like, well, what's going. You know, what's going on? This. That the other captain of exactly what words he said. But, you know, suffice to say, I was made to leave the pitch and it was just a horrible, horrible feeling. And I went home and just said to my mum, gonna have to cut my hair short. She's like, what you on about? I said, I need to. I need to look like a boy because that, you know, I want to play football. And that was it. And she did. She cut me. Gave me a shocking bowl cut, which was probably all right for the 80s, to be fair.

You probably fitted right in. I think we. I remember everyone having bowl cuts back.

Then, like a mini member, Duran Duran or something. Off I went and, you know, played football. And there's two things about that, really. One is that a lot of kids go through that and. And when they're subjected to that kind of stigma or ridicule or whatever, it just makes them give up, which is totally understandable because it makes you feel awful. But for some reason, that wasn't wired that way. And instead I just thought, I need to find a way to be able to play football. So that was one side to it. The downside was that kids then started saying, why do you want to be a boy? Well, I didn't want to be a boy. I just wanted to play football. And that, at the time, was the only way that I could. I could kind of do that. So it was. It was really difficult. And it. You know, I spent a long, long time wondering what was wrong with me and feeling like a weirdo and a bit of a freak and things like that. Not only for being the only girl to do the sports I was doing, but obviously the messages I was constantly getting from other kids, from society at large, was, you don't belong there. You're doing something you shouldn't be doing. And it was just so at odds with how I felt because, you know, and that's so sad because sport is just one of the most powerful things on the planet for bringing about social change, but also for bringing people together and bringing out the best in people, no matter gender, race, background, class, anything. And it's really sad when it does the opposite. So, you know, it was a really. It was a difficult time. And in terms of the boxing it was very, very similar experience in that, you know, there's more of an obvious influence there because my dad was a boxer, my granddad had been a boxer and ran our gym. So they took me in the gym sort of three nights a week. And I just absolutely loved it. I really, really loved it. And I did all the same things that my little lab mates did, you know, the same training. I watched the fights at the weekend, went to the shows, just loved it. And then I would have been 11 when we approached my granddad, me and my little mates who were in, like the group together, and we said, right, you know, we're ready to start boxing and get carded and all that. And my granddad just said, yeah, that's fine. But then he just looked at me and said, you can't box, kid. I said, what you on about? And he said, it's not legal for females. And I said, what? And I just couldn't believe it. I just found it so bizarre that it was. I didn't have a sense of inequality at the time. I mean, I was 11. I wasn't sort of thinking along those lines, really, and thinking, oh, this is unfair treatment of gender inequality. I just kind of thought, well, that's really weird. How can it be illegal to do a sport? I just found it really strange. And it was. It was horrible because I thought, right, well, I can't do it. It was just bizarre because I just thought I would. You know, the last few years I've been in the gym, I expected to be able to compete and I couldn't. So it was.

Yeah, it was very strange, it seems as well, like. So from playing like, football and in with. With your mates on the playground, and then you were in. You're actually in the school team, so this, you know, and you were playing with peers and then in the boxing with your mates, they all seemed to accept that it was just normal. So the boys you were playing with or the other girls and all just playing on the pitch, but it was only kind of the adults and the authority, I guess, that had the issue with it. Is that kind of how it felt?

I think what was difficult for kids was when I had my hair cut really short, I mean, I didn't have like, you know, a skinhead or anything. I had like just a really short haircut. So. And at that age, so it's like seven or eight, it can be difficult to tell, like who's a boy or a girl. When you're that little, you know, it usually is things like your Hair or if you close up, you can, you know, tell there's some sort of, you know, physical things that you can tell, I guess, someone's facial structure, whatever. But generally speaking, you know, not seven year old boys with beards or whatever is there? So you can kind of, you know, you could get away with it. But yeah, I think it was then that kids started. They didn't have, they didn't have anywhere to put me, you know what I mean? There wasn't. I didn't fit in a box properly, you know, I wasn't a girl as they saw, you know, what a girl should be. But I wasn't quite a boy. So what was I. To me, I always felt like a girl. I wanted to be a girl. I was happy being a girl. I just happened to love those sports for whatever reason and it just, you know, it was difficult, I think, for other kids to, to understand that, you know, if I wanted to do boys sports, I must therefore want to be a boy. I think that was the thinking plus, you know, at the time. And I've not really realised the importance of this until in more recent years when there's been somewhat of a revolution really of women's sporting apparel or, you know, clothing in that. Back then there weren't women's football kits, there wasn't such a thing. There was kits that were made for the body types of men and boys. So therefore, if you wanted to play football as a girl and you wanted to wear a footy kit, it was a boys footy kit. It was made for boys and men's bodies. So therefore you looked like you were dressing like a boy. Tracksuits were all made for boys. Any workout gear, you know, barring the Jane Fonda look, which became popular obviously when, you know, she very much brought exercise to women and we started having aerobics classes and step and all that, that. My mum was a fitness instructor. They had all that, you know, leotards, pop socks. It started, you know, they started to be clothing for women, but that's not appropriate on a football pitch. It was never going to rock up to football or at the boxing gym in a multicolored unit, pop socks. I just looked absolute idiot. Yeah, Charlie does it all the time. But. But yeah, it just would have been, you know, it would have been just obviously, you know, there wasn't boxing clothing tailored to him and there weren't football kits tailored to women. So therefore another thing that went along with that is because I wore sports wear all the time, kids would then think I dressed Like a boy. But again, I wasn't dressing to be like a boy. I was dressing for that sport, for football or for whatever, do you know what I mean? So it was. It was all part of the same thing and more the kids issue was more thinking, you know, why do you want to be a boy? And then I got to secondary school and then that started with kids saying shim and she male and calling me boy. And really sometimes quite a strong reaction. I mean, I got spat at once with someone saying, what are you, a freak? You know, and I think it was that again, that fear of what's different. And now, of course, it's. Thankfully, there's still a lot of that, but it is very different now because at least there are more examples of women and girls like me and it's becoming more acceptable, which is good when going through that.

Sorry, I'm totally sidetracking the conversation, not really giving you a chance to go through the full story, which you'll get onto. But then. So when you were going through that secondary school and kind of getting that abuse, basically for. So you talk about a lot and a lot of the work you do is about this power of sport and how it can have such a massive influence and yet through doing the sport or wanting to do the sport, you were then having such this negative pushback on. You did that. I mean, obviously we've seen what you've done now in that, but did it make you more determined to follow the passion and see the positives in sport, or was it now going well? Actually, I'm trying to do this sport, but it's bringing all this negative and I should just.

I don't think I thought about it loads at the time. Being honest, I was young and. Do you know, if I could pick a word to sum it up, it'd be more confusion. I found it very confusing because for me, I was me. So I wasn't frightened of this freak being that, you know, some people perceived me as. I wasn't worried that I was strange or, you know, I knew I was happy as I was. I just loved the sports that I loved. I know I. I wasn't trying to be anybody else. I was just being me and me included, loving the sports that I loved. So I found it and it was just normal to me because bizarrely, the place I didn't belong were the places I felt most like me, I felt happiest. And when I was in the boxing gym or on a football pitch or, you know, a ball at my feet, I was Punching a bag, that is when I felt whole, I felt alive. I felt all of the amazing things that the right sport for you feels like, whether you do it at elite level or you just do it because you enjoy it, it's the same feeling. You know, there's just different outcomes, but there's, it's the same feeling. And that to have that feeling internally that was met with this external barrier and wall of negative sound was very confusing. I didn't understand it. The knock on effect for many years was a feeling of shame though, because that does impact. You don't just stay confused. Eventually your brain will come up with an answer. And particularly for a young person, usually you look to yourself and you think, there must be something wrong with me. And that's how I felt, that there must have been something wrong. And I did feel ashamed to an extent of who I was. But it was very much at odds with this deep, deep love that I had for sport and how it made me feel. It was very confusing. But it took me a long time to work through that sense of shame and to get to the point of starting to process, you know, what you've just alluded to there is, you know, what, what does this actually mean and what does this mean for, for me in sport and, etc, etc. That came much later.

Did you ever get to the point where you thought about giving up? I mean, obviously you couldn't do the boxing that you wanted to do. Did you ever get to the point where you thought about giving up football because of the kind of name calling and abuse and all of the other issues around that?

No, never.

Excellent.

So there was obviously a clear determination to progress in it. How did you progress from sort of struggling, you know, not even being allowed to play in the, in the school team to going on to becoming a professional footballer.

So that happened. And I don't know where that drive comes from. Like I say, Charlie, that's one of the saddest things for me is that there are still a lot of kids giving up on the things that they love because of this kind of ridicule. Or it can be from their own family sometimes. You know, I had a supportive family, but not all kids get that and that must be very, very difficult. And that's really sad that they give up and imagine if I had have given up. I mean, God knows what. My life is unthinkable for me to imagine my life without sport and me without sport. And we're taking that away from a lot of kids. But I just had that drive for whatever reason, you know, I was seven or eight. It's not like I'd read a load of quotes and self help books. I was just like, right, cut my hair short. I've got. I was just like that. God knows why. I just was. So I think there's an element of it that is just who you are as a person, you know, regardless of the environment that you're in. But what happened was there was a couple of events that kind of happened at similar times. So me and my dad, when he used to stay with my dad at weekend, it really consisted of five things, really. Chocolate.

I'm with you.

Chocolate. Diet Coke, Rocky films, Bruce Lee films and Karate Kid with a bit of Inspector Cluso thrown in now and then. And I'd be Cato and would be enacting it all after. But Karate Kid and Rocky and things like that, I mean, I was just total believer. Do you know what I mean? I was all in. I like thought they were real. Anyway, so I had to go at the crane, which Karate Kid famously did on the beach on that stump. And I did it on the banister at the top of the stairs and very quickly got to the bottom.

As you mentioned Karate Kid. Then I was about to say, wasn't there an incident where you might have tried to reenact.

That was it. And I don't like to say I fell down the stairs because that sounds like a lost. I just went very quickly down the stairs and by the time I'd reached the bottom, I'd broken my shoulder and I was 11 at the time. So then I couldn't box for quite some time because obviously, you know, it needed to set, heal. I was in a sling for what felt like forever. So I really threw myself into football then. And it was roundabout then that we found out about a local girls team that was setting up called Stockport County. Well, it was already called Stop Hook county, but Stop Hook how we're getting the girls team. I mean, and I went to that very first training session and it was just amazing. And that's why sometimes I think it can be good to have, you know, opportunities for girls and for boys while we're still at this stage, that it isn't equal. If it ever does get to the point when it's equal, it may not make a difference. But I think back then, because it had always been. I'd never, ever, ever been in a boxing gym ever, or played football, whether that's in the playground at school or as part of the school team, ever. And there'd been another girl. Never, ever that happened. I did several summer camps that my mum, you know, thankfully, you know, was able to pay for me to go on. And there was a couple that were free with the council, do you know what I mean? There was a. You know, they did, like, cheap places for kids. And again, there was never ever another girl. So to them, turn up and the beat all of these girls, but not just girls, they were girls like me and they had little football boots on. They were talking about shin pads and they knew what they were on about. They were talking about their favorite players and who they were going to try and be in that training session. And I was like, oh, my God, here's my tribe. I couldn't believe it. It was just. And that's why, like I say, there is. It's great mixing stuff, but sometimes there is a value in that, especially if you've never had it before. And I was just like, wow. And that was it. And off I went. And I went through the whole system at Stockport county, from under 11s through to the first team, actually. And then we were at a summer camp. Sorry, a summer tournament where I was playing for Stockport county and I saw Tranmere overs playing who were in the Premier League at the time. And I just couldn't believe I'd never seen women's football like that. I just couldn't believe it. Like, the speed of play, the technical ability of the players, it was just like, I was absolutely mesmerized and I knew that's what I wanted to do. And so I said to my mum, like, I want to play in the Premier League. And so she said, right, well, let's. Let's try and sort it out. And I was only about. It was about 15 then, so I still had another year at school. And the scouts had been from America to the games at Stockport and they'd spoken to me and Amanda Barr and, you know, the coach and said, you know, we're looking at them, we want them to go to America. And I was like, great, I'll just forget school now and I'll start training. They're like, no, no, you've got to get some GCSE to get in. So it's like, shit, right, okay, better now start doing some school work. So I went from, like, sack school off. I'll just train. And they were like, no, you've got some GCCs. Like, oh, my God. Right. So then I had to actually trying and concert. And that was the only reason I put any effort into my GCSEs at all, because I thought that later it could. It could help me get to America. So there was that half on my mind and I thought, I need to get in the Premier League. And so me and my mum, I remember dead clearly, we sat in the back room of the house and she got a map out, because that was all we had then. You know, we didn't have all these technological gadgets now, but. And we got the map of the country and had a look at where the closest Premier League teams were. And Tranmere was the closest to Manchester at the time. We didn't have any Manchester professional teams. And she said, you know, if. Let's ring up, see if we can find a phone number, see if we can sort out a trial, because obviously there's no Internet. Then, you know, it was only just start. And it was like that weird digit stuff like you see in the old films. And so, you know, we looked, we looked it up. We got a phone number. She rang the manager and found out where the trials were. Then I rang the manager and said, you know, I'm. I'm a footballer from Manchester. I wanna. Would you consider taking someone from Manchester? And he was like, yeah, come down to the training session. And that was it. I went to my first training session. It was at New Brighton beach on Merseyside. I mean, I never even knew Merseyside had beaches. I couldn't believe it. I was like, what beaches near Liverpool? It's like Deadwood.

Oh, you know, it's. Yeah, there's water and some.

They're nice, though. They're actually nice. It's just at the walk, very, very long way away. You can't actually see it, but yeah.

Quite the same sort of beaches as you're experiencing in Lanzarote, though.

So we did like, oh, my God. What Felt like a marathon down the beach. Then we stopped in these sand dunes and did these sand dune sprints. And honestly, I thought. I didn't know there was going to be sick die. I just hyperventilate. I just didn't know it was horrendous. And we got back and then the manager was like, all right, get your fussy boots on. And I was like, what, playing football now? Jesus, my legs like spaghetti. And then we played this game of football. It was just like. And I was like, oh, my God. So that was it then. By the time I got home that night, I mean, I was like, right, tomorrow I'm going to really start. Of course, I couldn't the next day, I couldn't even walk some sit ups and that. I made myself a plan to like, you know, level up really and start properly taking my training seriously and, and training every single day, which I hadn't done to that point. And that was it. And then, you know, I played in a couple of summer tournaments for me. They decided to sign me on and my mum and my nan, between them made sure that I got to every training session and every game on a Thursday night and a Sunday for Tranmere. And that was me, my start in the Premier League. And it was just, I don't know, it was just amazing. And we had a brilliant team as well. Really, really good team and a great manager who's dead supportive and yeah, it was, it was, you know, I was, I was very lucky to have that support from my nan and my mum. You know, my mum had the three of us on her own and some weekends I'd take my sisters with me and my manager was great about it. He'd get us her family room and my sisters had come down to like, if we played Arsenal, whatever, and just stay with me and, you know, because obviously mum was by herself and it's really hard doing everything by yourself. So, yeah, it was just a great experience starting in the Premier League and it took off from there really fantastic.

And I'm really keen to kind of understand more about how perceptions of football have changed women's football in your over that time. But before we do that, how did that then lead on to you playing for England?

So there were some trials. I think I've been at Tranmere a year and a bit, or 18 months, something like that. And then they were starting to properly develop the women's football, England. So they were starting to have for the first time, like a proper pathway, you know, putting all that in place. Hope Powell was the manager then and starting to put things in place where there was a, a pathway that you could follow. So from, you know, under 18s, under 21s up to, you know what I mean? It wasn't all in place yet. It was the under 18s was the first bit. It's a feed through to the senior team now. We've got everything. We've got, you know, the school girl level, under 17 and just, you know, it's great. But we didn't then. So they were trying to find the players to, you know, get this going. And I went to the trials and it just went really, really well. I mean, I scored three goals, I got two assists. It went so, so well. And then we got. We all got letters a couple of weeks after, and there was about five of us that had gone from who I knew, you know, out of our little group or whatever, and I was the only one who didn't get picked. And it was. Oh, my God, it was. It was the first time, I think, that I'd been really, really devastated in sport. I'd felt a bit of heartbreak before, you know, with stuff like when we had the FA cup game when I was like 15 or whatever, and I'd got a stomach bug that weekend and I couldn't go, and it was really gutted and, you know, stuff like that. But that was. That was brutal. Really, really brutal. And it, you know, it took me a bit. It really broke me out and it was dead that difficult. But then I thought, right, if this is what I really want, though, and this has stayed with me forever, really, and due to boxing as well, that I kind of said to myself, I want to play for England. I never said it had conditions, so I never said I want to play for England. So long as everything goes smoothly and goes my way and there's a straight path to it, I just want to play. So whatever is on that path shouldn't change that I want to play. And I thought, well, then, with that in mind, I just need to work harder and see what I need to do. So I contacted him and asked, you know, what feedback I could have, and they said I came out of position too much and I was playing in a different position that I usually played for my club, strangely. So perhaps that what it was, I don't know. But anyway, I kept on and eventually I did. I did get picked and I went on, obviously, to play for England, which was one of the big things I'd always wanted to do. And then I've made the big move to play for Don Castabelles, which was the club I'd always really wanted to play for, because although I hadn't really seen any women's football, I'd seen clips of them in the FA cup, because that was all you used to get years ago was a little clip of Doncaster Bells playing whoever was trying to beat him that year, because they just were the best team for about 10 years, and therefore they were the team I really wanted to play for. And I'd read the book, you know, I lost my heart to the Bells. I'd read all about the original team and how it got set up, and I just had a real fairy tale thing with it. And then, you know, I went there, I Had a couple of trials and it wasn't really trials because I played for Tranmere against them and they'd approached me and asked about going to play there, but obviously you need to go to a couple of training sessions, just make sure it's the right fit for you. And so there was that more than a trial, really. But I just loved it from the second I went in. And for me, it was like walking into the hall of fame of all these footballers I'd looked up to and that I was in the same kit as them. It was. It was immense. And strangely enough, that was Chippy Julia Chipchase, who brought me there first, who's sadly passed away this week, and what a massive, massive pioneer she was. And another one who, you know, had she been in the men's game, it would be everywhere this week and everybody would be remembering her. And I hope she's remembered properly because she did phenomenal things for the game. You know, she was part of the very first Bells team in the 70s as a player and then went on to coach very successfully, the senior team, taking us know, to Premier League heights, to FA cup finals, Charity Shield, you know, then she went on to Leeds and she was in the fa. You know, she did phenomenal things, but as usual, doesn't get the credit that is deserved. And I find that very annoying. And, you know, it's. It's upon us now to try and make sure that her legacy and memories, those who've played for her, that people know about and that it's carried on and we'll certainly try to do that. But. But yeah, she gave me my. The opportunity to go to Donnie and play for the club I'd always loved. And it was, it was, it was just. It was just great. But even putting the kit on was just dead exciting. It was. And what, like, say, walking in there and there was like, all these players that had, you know, really looked up to. It was exciting. I don't think I spoke for about six weeks, which is not like, what's that kind of.

Yeah, because I, I've. I've had similar, like going from amateur triathlon to professional. And so you're. You've seen all these idols that you've looked up to in the sport and then suddenly, like, you're looking across and you're on the start line with them in that same game. So what was that kind of like, did it obviously excited you and you said it was awesome, but did you get kind of. Was it nerves and inferior inferiority or did it actually it sounds like it probably just drove you to be even better.

I think there was a. There's a. There's a bit of everything that goes through your mind, isn't there? I don't think there was one dominant thought. I think I went through all of them of thinking, christ, am I actually good enough to be here with these lot? Like, these are. These are like the big. You know, they were icons of the game at the time and still are. You know, they're the OGs, do you know what I mean? They were the original, original. Like, nowadays they'd have been household names and been megastars, but it just wasn't like that then. But to me they were, because it was my sport and I was just like, proper starstruck. So I went through that and went through, you know, a bit of imposter syndrome, I guess. But I also always had that thing that kicked in that was a bit like, don't let this opportunity go. This is what you want. So you have asked for this discomfort, really. It's part and parcel of it. And you can't be afraid and go small and shrink in the face of it when it's what you've wanted, like, this is what you wanted. So everything that comes with it, the fear, the doubt, imposter syndrome, all of that comes with those kind of big ambitions and big goals. And so I kind of accepted it, really, and thought, right, then, learn from them. Try and be as good as them and just enjoy every single second of this experience. And I did.

I think, obviously she went on to play for England. You went and played in the US as well of your footballing career. What was the. What was the greatest highlight?

I don't think I've got, like, one particular greatest highlight. They're all different chapters, really. I mean, going to America was a. Was a pretty phenomenal experience. You know, that was a bit like a dream come true because, again, they were starting to be megastars, you know, the US team when I was growing up, and there was the likes of Mia Hamm and Michelle Akers, who were like, you know, proper. They were like the Beckhams of women's football. So I think to then go over there was pretty amazing. But also the setup is. Is phenomenal, you know, thanks to Title 9, which ensured in from 1972 onwards that, you know, all institutions had to give equal funding to both male and female sport. And that's changed sport in America forever, really. And I was a beneficiary of that, obviously. But, yeah, it meant that you had great facilities. You had, you know, excellent physios who were there all the time to help you with your rest and recovery. You could concentrate on your sport. You did studies alongside it, which was dreading, and ended up enjoying. I loved studying, perhaps because I was a bit older and I'd worked and, I don't know, for a multitude of reasons. And, you know, the academics set up there, the structure of it's different anyway, it just suited me better. So just the whole experience was amazing. The Americans have a different culture towards women's football, towards sport in general and towards, you know, just life. You know, I think that they're a bit more positive, enthusiastic. Yeah. And that there's no. There's no reservation with it. Whereas I think we do have a bit of that, you know, a bit more reserved, which is not a terrible thing because they're asked, you know, it's good to have a balance between being arrogant and whatever. But I think I, you know, I thrived in that environment where it was, you know, they were very much about, you know, being your best self and all that. And it was a good thing. It was a good thing for me. So there was lots of lots and lots that I got from it beyond just playing football. And then I did pre season in Brazil with the American team, which is just a fantastic experience. Amazing people and again, a great culture for football and beyond. And then finished my playing career in Sweden, which was, you know, totally different. That's one of the great things that sports afforded me, is to be immersed in these different cultures and countries and. And ways of being, which goes far beyond sport. That's, you know, a life experience. And it was. Yeah. So I was very, very fortunate to have those experiences. And to be honest, if I had to pick the highlights, Charlie, it wouldn't be like a thing like, obviously playing for England and actually being there, listening to the anthem and then putting that Donny Bell shirt on and going to America. Just the whole experience of it, going to Sweden were great, but it's always about the people for me. So the highlight for me is always those mentors, those influences, those teammates, those people who have massively influenced me and who, you know, I've been able to support and influence and, you know, help in my own way as well, both in and out of sport. My highlight will always be, you know, the impact that, the relationships I've built with others. But also whenever I've been able to use sport to inspire others or make a positive difference, that will always be my highlight. And in America, My broken leg, which ended football for me, really, because it just changed something in my head just snapped as well as my bone. That, although it was a terrible experience, led for me to really throw myself into using sport as a positive catalytic, which had already done before, but it really, you know, supercharged it because I threw myself into it. And we did some amazing projects with, you know, young people at juvenile detention center, which was a very, very different experience to what our justice system here. Very, very different. We did stuff with teen pregnant mums. We did stuff at a juvenile addiction center and a rehab center with Hispanic kids who, you know, weren't fluent in English. We did a reading project with them, a literacy project. We did sports project with kids in underprivileged communities, all sorts of things. And, you know, and there was little bits like, obviously I loved the football there, but there were two highlights. And I'm going on here, but I have to include these. There was two real highlights. I did this project at the homeless centre in Austin where I was, and we did a basketball tournament with us. And I'm crap at basketball, but we did a basketball tournament with us and against, you know, with the homeless. Like, we're mixed in. We have mixed in teams. And then invited them to a game and it was just amazing. Like, there was just like a whole load of like, you know, busload came from the homeless shelter and sat on the edge of campus watching our football game. And people were like, wherever they could. But it was great because, you know, in many cases they'd never been onto a college campus. And why not? It should be for everyone. And then the other one was when I was doing these sessions at an asylum center for, you know, people who'd fled persecution in different countries. And it was a small little place. It had bunk beds, like top to bottom everywhere. There was 13 different nationalities staying there at the time. And there was a couple of bits in particular, this massive football game. And there's loads of different languages being spoken. It was just absolutely amazing. And there was this old guy from Argentina who we ended up playing Jenga and kind of explained how to play it. And we didn't speak a word of each other's language. And we ended up playing this game of Jenga for about three hours. And it was just like so amazing, like connecting with him. And then the other one was a little boy called Diego who was there on his own with his mum. And his mum had been through some terrible things and they'd fled their country and come there and he had these Little trainers with all holes in. And me and my mate bought him some from Walmart that light up, you know, when you step. And seeing him that first day when we gave him those trainers and he was running up and down with him, lighting up, and he was saying all this stuff in Spanish and I was like, do you like him? And he's like. I was like, he likes it. Like those kind of things. What can be more important than that? Those, those will always be my highlights in my heart.

With those sort of projects that you did, was that through the association of being with the university or the college and the football, or was that stuff that you'd kind of just driven yourself to some extent? Obviously you're in America.

I just said it up because you know what I found? I'd been. I was a youth worker before I went over there because obviously I've always worked full time throughout my sports career because I've just missed out on, you know, whenever, whenever money's coming to us for.

I've gone, yeah, we were the wrong. We were the wrong generation. We needed like five, ten years younger.

Yeah, absolutely, with you. So I always had to work. And I was a youth worker before I went to America, and I absolutely loved doing, obviously, the football. I actually enjoyed the studying, but I always felt like there was something missing and that was my bigger, if you like, purpose in life, which was making a difference to people. And I didn't feel like I was. I was within the team, you know, I was a leader within the team. I was a captain. I enjoyed that role. But that, that's just one part of it that that's, you know, felt like sport, do you know what I mean? And I wanted to be. Use whatever platform, resources, whatevers I had to make a difference to others. And I didn't feel like I was doing it. So I'd already set up quite a few community projects anyway. And then with the injury, I thought, right, the best thing I can do while I'm feeling this horrendous is channel that despair and depression, really. I was very, very down when I got that broken leg really down. And I thought, I need to channel it into doing something good for others, because it is the only thing that can make things feel better, in my opinion. So that's when I got all the other athletes involved, you know, whoever was wanting to. So we had like, say, the basketball team, the baseball team. I did a different project to each place and it was really lovely when I left because we had the, you know, the athletic banquet, which they have at the end of every year. And when I was a senior and we were finishing the. They introduced the Stacy Copeland Community Service Award. And that's. Now It's. Well, it's 11 years ago that. But they've. It was 10 years last year, and I really wanted to go for the 10 years, but of course, Covid stopped anything like that. But it's now it's awarded to an athlete every single year who uses their, you know, role as an athlete to make a difference in the community. So that, I mean, that's got to be my highlight as a human being. Do you know what I mean? That'd be the highlight, really, of hoping that there's some sort of legacy there with which to make a difference to others. Because, you know, ultimately, it's great if you can be fantastic at sport, and that's exactly what I was driven to do. But for me, there's another purpose as well of making a difference to others. And I want to always do that in whatever way I can.

Amazing. And in terms of. So how did you get from that point where you were sort of really down around the football? I think I heard you describe on a podcast that you felt football almost let you down as well, because you kind of played some pretty rough cards at the end of your career. How did you go from that point to suddenly deciding that you wanted to get into boxing and going on to becoming a professional boxer and winning the titles that you want?

It happened to say it in a very blunt sense, when my penalty was saved in the national championships. That was the turning point of my life, from football to boxing, because prior to that, I had had the broken leg, but I still was in love with football still. And all I could focus on was getting back for the end of the season. And somehow I did. I was constantly in a boot and was cycling about in my boot. And, you know, I turn up to games in the boot and put my actual boot on and then put the boot straight on after me. And I had to have it on for months because the leg was healing and whatever. But I did make it back. I scored one of the penalties that put us through the week before. And then we got to the big game. We traveled over to California. It was just, you know, when, you know, when it's something that good that you can't believe it's happening and it's that good. Do you know what I mean? It was just like the. You know, it. Like if you could, you know, in films, like the happy films, anyway, they finish it like the best bit when it's like, yeah, that. That would have been the end of my film. Do you know what I mean? And it would have been better stopping there because the next bit was absolutely horrible because then we went to California and we had this massive game. God knows how I managed to play a full game and extra time, given that I'd had that broken leg, but somehow I did, and he hit the post with 40 seconds left in overtime. So that was horrible. Anyway, and then we went to penalties and, you know, the play before me had missed on our team. They scored, I took mine and she saved it. And it was. It wasn't quite the end of the world because they still had to take one, and had they missed that, that would have still been in it. But they scored. And within that one minute or whatever it was, period of walking up to take the penalty, her saving it, walking back to the line in some kind of mega days, like, it is shock. And people who haven't experienced sport that level and when it hasn't consumed them like it did for me, probably won't understand, but it's like those massive shocks that happen in your life, those moments when you get those phone calls, it's exactly the same. It's shock. I couldn't believe I'd missed the penalty. And it's like, no, no, this wasn't meant to happen. Like, rewind it back, let me do it again. It was just horrendous. Got back to the line, stood with my teammates, watched them score, and then watched this team celebrate with this mega euphoria and look around at all my teammates and my coach and all these people. I felt like I'd massively let down, and it was like my whole world fell in. It was just. Honestly, I do. I wanted just to go to sleep and wake up in maybe three, four years, however long, when it had just gone. I didn't want to live through that feeling. It was absolutely. And it. Without a doubt. So sport isn't separate to life. When it is your life, it's 100 up there with the worst things that have happened in my life, no doubt about it, which, yeah, it's ridiculous when you put it into, you know, some other kind of context that it is just a sport and it's this and it's that. But when it. When it does feel like such a massive part of your life, it's. That's just how it is. There's no hiding it. It was completely devastating. That's how I felt. Felt completely heartbroken. It was just horrible. And then it was really within days that I, oh well, straight away. But you never know. D off the immediate emotion. But as the days went past, I knew, I thought, no, something has definitely changed in me. I am never going to feel the same about football again. And I didn't. I was really angry with it and I thought, I've been loyal to you all these years, through everything, working full time, driving all the way to Donny, like an hour and a half after a full day at work, training, driving back, got everything. And before I've been to America, I'd been through a really difficult time where, which is why I went to America because I had a house then with my boyfriend, a full time job, I was settled. And then, you know, something awful happened. We had to go through a whole trial in court. I was living out of my car for a few months at a time. It's just horrendous. And yet I'd still, I'd sleep in my car in like a hotel car park, meet up with the bus and pretend I'd just driven there, go down to Arsenal and play a game of football. Even that I was dedicated to football. And I thought after all of that, this is what you do to me. It was bizarre and it's such an illogical thing because football isn't. Doesn't think it don't play mind games with you, it's just a thing. But that's how I felt and I thought, how could you have done this to me? And I just knew I'd never ever feel the same about it. And that's when the. The only thing that made me feel better, if I could even say better or just make me want to still carry on, was the thought of boxing. Because I thought that was the one thing that was like. And that's again, it's a terrible thing to say because I've got fantastic friends, a family I adore, so, you know, how can the thought of boxing. But if I'm telling the truth, that's how it was. And I knew that if I could box and pursue that dream that I'd never ever had as a kid, then that was that little glimmer for me and I hung onto it. And that was when that transition happened. I still went to Sweden because I'd already agreed to go with my best mate and from America and we had a whole trip around Europe planned and all that. And I enjoyed it. I still enjoyed it, but it wasn't the same. It was not the same as I'd ever been about football and I knew I wasn't. And that was when that mentally that transition happened. And I knew I would end up going into boxing. And then my sister, you know, was pregnant with my first ever niece. And then that was. That changed everything. And I was like, right when I finished in Sweden, I'm going home. Because I desperately, desperately wanted to be part of her life and boxer. Those were the two things that kept me going, you know, knowing that my niece was coming along and boxing. So I had those two things that were everything really, at the time, what's been very conscious.

I know you're time pressured. So this could be another one of our John McAvoy interviews that goes on from. For two and a half hours, but I know it can't today, so we might have to do a chapter two at some point.

But.

What was the highlight of. I find it really interesting that you talked about a lot of highlights around people with regards to football. And then we've also talked about the low of the sport of kind of feeling like you've been betrayed by the sport. Do you want to give me the highlight of your boxing career? But also, was there another moment and I think probably there was relating to the belt that also felt like it had been, you know, it was cheating on you as well. Is that a good way of summing up sort of the high and the low of your boxing career?

Yeah, I mean, I didn't feel cheated by boxing. I felt cheated by the structures, by the inequality.

Right.

Because had never been so obvious to me just how unfair this landscape is. It. It had been there and it had been obvious, but not that obvious to me, if that makes sense. So, for example, the, the difference in that 20 year period was significant because when I got that first England call up and got the letter to say I'd been picked, it was just. I mean, it was amazing. Like, you know, as the three lines crest on and it just blow, it blew my mind. It was just, oh, I think I floated. And I think no matter what, you know, I always say this, that no matter what level you get to, even if you become the best ever in the world, that first call up for your international team or whatever is just major. It's massive because you don't know what's going to come next. That is the best thing ever in your life. Do you know what I mean? So that, that feeling was incredible. And I went to work where I worked in like a factory place at the time. And there weren't any holidays left on the road or at the week that I needed, because it was like the European Championships. I think it was like June or something like that. It's when a lot of people were starting to go away on holiday. So, you know, it was. There weren't much left. So I went to see my boss and I said, oh, I need a week off, but there's nothing left on the rotor. And he said, oh, you're going on holiday? I said, no, no. And he said, well, what's it for? So I gave him this letter and I might. I've probably been better off saying, to be honest, I'm thinking doing a bank job on the side, but I'll give you half. And he probably would have gone, oh, great. You know, I think that would have been more well received. So I gave him the. I gave him the letter and I just stood there and like, like I said, I was practically floating. It was. I was like, you know, and he just didn't say anything for ages. And I was like, this isn't going out. I really anticipate. And then he just said, so you want me to give you a week off to play for a women's football team? And I was like, well, it's the England women's football team. And, yeah, and it made, you know, all these put downs and innuendos and whatever, and I said, oh, look, it really means a lot to me. Can I just take it unpaid? To which he agreed, thankfully, and that was it. But I left that office and that interaction feeling really small, really stupid for thinking it was a big deal to play not for the England football team, but the England women's football team, which meant it was crap, like, not proper. Do you know what I mean? The other one, the lesser than. And again, I felt that sense of shame of what I was doing. I didn't even tell any of my colleagues that was going. It wasn't until it was in the paper a few weeks after and they're like, I thought you'd gone on holiday or something, or you're having like a secret operation or something. I was like, no, no, I was playing footy. So fast forward 20 years when then I've been to Zimbabwe, I've made history and won the, you know, the first British woman to win the Commonwealth title. We had an incredible experience over there. You know, the support for the event was immense. The coverage on their, you know, terrestrial sports channel was phenomenal. It was just an absolutely incredible experience. And then to win was just every emotional emotion imaginable searing through your Veins like, oh, phenomenal. And then, you know, the nerves beforehand in the build, the whole lot, the whole lot was just a massive, massive experience. And then to win and not get a belt was, how can you put that into words? Like, how can you, how can that ever be okay? And when I got back, I rang the head of the Commonwealth Boxing Council because I was back at work on the Monday morning, obviously knackered and I mean, just won a tight little 36 hour journey back and there was a bloody work. But anyway, and I rang him and said, you know, what a great experience it had been and everything. But, you know, not having a belt was just not what I'd had in mind because it had meant that, you know, it wasn't quite that fairy tale because me and my coach had never, ever have that moment, you know, and we should have had that moment. We should have pictures of us with that belt and that's what you do it for. You do it for the bell or the trophy or the whatever. And we just didn't have that moment. And I said, right, we're never gonna have that moment back. I said, you know, what, what's going. He said, oh, yeah, well, I can explain. The manufacturers of the replica belt have ceased production. So I said, what's it got to do with me? Said, oh, well, you know, we have replica belts for women and real belts for men. So I said, my God, why is that? She said, oh, well, there's more money in men's boxing. I said, I know, but you know, surely even if it meant paying for it with my own money, I should have had the option to have that belt for that moment because it's, it's massive. I'm never going to get that moment again. And I said, it wasn't even the worst bit in the ring. The worst bit was that everybody at home, it had been live streamed. You know, my family got together in the houses, they got projector screens and everything and watched it. Everyone watched it. Everyone was so excited. They said, oh, we can't wait to see the belt. It's coming home, it's coming home. I didn't have the heart to tell everyone there wasn't a belt. You know, you don't want to put. Part of the great thing of sport is bringing other people with you in it and them having that high. And I didn't want to put a downer on it. But we get back to Manchester Airport and me and my coach, loads of our family and friends had turned out to surprise us and not having that belt to share with them in that moment was sickening, absolutely sickening to my core that I was stood there, who'd come back a champion. I was like my own hero, being honest, because I was like, my God, have I actually done this? I can't believe I've actually done it. There was all the people I loved, you've helped me and supported me and I couldn't have done it without. And I didn't have that belt to share with them in the moment. It's disgraceful. And I felt that in every cell of my being. And so I said to him, you know, how quickly can I have a real belt? And he said, well, we've got loads here at the head office, you can have them within a couple of weeks, but they're quite expensive, so unless you've got a sugar daddy, you probably won't be able to have one. And I mean, I thought to those 20 years before, and I thought, I've been here before, I've been treated like this before, you know, as a youngster getting me first England call up, and now as a accomplished, high achieving athlete who's made history and dedicated my life to this, I am still being treated like the lesser and the other. And you know what? Now I'm not having it. And so I said, you shouldn't have said that. I said, that is a terrible, terrible way to speak and a very derogatory thing to say to a professional athlete. Oh, I didn't mean it. Like I said, I'm not interested in how you meant it. I'm telling you how it felt. And in your position, that is not good enough. So you what you need to understand, because he'd started the conversation with, you know, I need to make you understand why they want a belt. So I said, what you need to understand is that this cannot happen to a future female champion, so we need to come up with something. And then that's when they, they decided to do a Women's Commonwealth title belt, which is now available and should be. So although it was a horrible thing to happen, I'm glad it happened to me because I was the person, the right person, because I was the one to do something about it. But the difference in that 20 years is not just that I'd got older, that doesn't always work. You know, the difference is that the most powerful thing really is that I had a different narrative and that is why storytelling. And that's why I never turned down podcasts. I might have to delay them or postpone them, but Never turn them down. I never turn down the opportunity to share the story if I can, because I know what a difference storytelling has done for me. Because the only narrative I had as that 16 year old that first time round was that women are not as good, they're not capable, they don't belong in those spaces. If they do, they're a freak. We don't value them the same. It's all of this again and again. That was from kids at school, some teachers, even society in general. The media taught you that, the governing bodies taught you that. Everywhere that message came from. And I didn't have any other narrative 20 years later, I'd then had the ability, thanks in part to the Internet, to access information about the history of women's sport. And if we only compare it to men's, then maybe it doesn't look as good. But if you look at the history of women's sport in and of itself, of all the sports have been banned from, how long we've even been allowed to compete and then how far we've come in that time, the fact that we weren't allowed to run marathons because of stupid things like you just falling out and shit. I mean, God. So, you know, when you look at all of that, plus we've had social stigma. We have to somehow work out how to deal with contraceptives or having kids or not having them and bloody everything that comes with that and just your body freaking out every month and doing weird shit you can do without. So all of that and look where we are. We've done incredible things. I had role models by then who. It was impossible for me to say women weren't capable of things because I'd seen women doing unbelievable things, you know, climbing big mountains and doing ultramarathons, marathon de Saab like sprinting, triathlons, football, doing everything at an amazing technical level and endurance level. So that narrative by then that I had, I was equipped with a different story. And that's why I was able to recognize this isn't me that should feel ashamed. You're in the wrong and this needs to change. And that's why stories and the narrative is essential for us to think differently about ourselves and that, you know, what we're a product of. And that was a shift for me going.

Because I know like now and God, there is, there's so much I want to dive into about then the injuries in the retirement that obviously pave your way and then, gosh, yeah, so many questions. But the talk about storytelling and narratives and you now do a lot of speaking. And you do. You've got your TED Talks and, like, you've got your radio program, which is, again, another thing I want to dive into. But. And like you said, you never turned out a podcast and stuff, but I remember reading something around where you were when you first started out doing a lot of the talks, of the speak speaking, and you were doing it all for free. And then there was kind of a trigger moment of where you realize that actually what you're speaking about is completely opposite to what you're doing in doing those talks for free, because you're not valuing yourself and your message as a female. Can you just talk a little bit about that? Because that's. It's something I personally struggle with as well. And then when you did flip and sort of start valuing your time, how was that? Did you get. How was that received? I guess. And how you've developed it from there?

Yeah, it's a great question. And I'd start by saying, I don't think there's anything wrong with doing things for free when you're learning.

Yeah.

Because what also doesn't help is this idea that you get an athlete and they go, let's get them doing some public speaking. Well, why would there be any good at that? That's exactly the same as having a mechanic and saying, let's get the mechanic doing a bit of public speaking. Why would you do that? Like, why would you assume that somebody. Because they do a particular job, which in many cases, that's what sport is. It's a job, you know, for those for whom it is a livelihood. It's their choice of career. It's. It's very different to other jobs, for obvious reasons, but it is a job. Essentially, for me, it wasn't a job. It was an extracurricular thing, but it took up a massive part of my life. Now, clearly, there will be things, depending on what your journey has been in sport, that lend themselves to business. And, you know, there's a lot of parallels. And they apply to business. They apply. In some cases, sport has impacted people's mental health, made them more aware of it. They might want to talk about that. They might have had physical health things. They might want to talk about that they've had setbacks, adversity, whatever it might be. And there might have been loads of learnings from that that they can then share. They might be really clued up on motivation and what, you know, some athletes go on to. They go in deep, don't they? Like, they're really psychologically into it all and they can go into businesses, but that's not just speaking about. And I don't want to be awful, but, God, I have been to some and it's sports people and they just give a chronological order of what they've done. It's really boring. You can make anything sound boring, really. You could be an astronaut, which is widely accepted as being one of the most, like, amazing. Like, yeah, like proper clever, amazing things you can do. But you could make that sound boring if you go, well, I went to Nasser in, oh, round about 2009, and I tried my suit on and that fitted. And then I went to the moon and then came back from there in. And then I might have gone to Mars in between. Yeah, I did go to Mars. It was difficult. I had a couple of difficult times, but I kept going because that's what you should do, never give up. And eventually I got to Mars. Do you know what I mean? It's not that interesting, actually, to me anyway. So it. I don't think. I think that sometimes does a disservice. This idea that just because you've done sport means you can do public speaking. Not everybody can articulate and convey the things that they've learned, if they have, in fact learned anything. And actually, with some athletes, they haven't had a life at all. What they've done is go around the track again and again and again and again and again. So what's there to talk about? You know what I mean? And then I'm not having a go at people, I'm just saying. And it's the same with other speakers, you know, just because someone's done really well in business, for example, it doesn't.

Mean they're excellent, doesn't mean they can tell the story.

Yes, exactly, exactly. So public speak. What I'm trying to get to is that public speaking in itself is. Is a skill, it's a passion, it's a, you know, a way to connect with people. I think you don't know if you're any good at it, other than the feedback that you get. The same with, which is very similar to sport. If you're winning, you know, you're doing all right.

It's very black and white feedback, isn't it?

Yeah. There isn't a win like that in public speaking, is there? It's just what you. The emotions that you can bring out in people and the connection. So I think that sometimes I don't think there's anything wrong with doing a few for Free. I did hundreds for free. I did too many. But I don't think there's anything wrong with doing a few for free. I don't think that there's a. Should be this sense of entitlement that because you've done anything and some people have had, you know, the most phenomenal experiences. Incorrect me. John McEvoy is one of them. But it doesn't mean they're good at public speaking is what I'm trying to say. They might be better with someone interviewing them maybe, or writing it, or somebody writing it for them and, you know, whatever. So that, That I think can be a problem sometimes for me. I did far too many for free. And it got to the point where the blog that I wrote about came to a head sort of thing when it had been coming up more and more. And I was thinking it's costing me a lot of money this. Because no talks are for free. They actually are your expense. You drive there and you take the time to put that presentation together or whatever you're doing.

And especially if you're doing it properly and you're like. You're tailoring it to like your audience and what are the messages and making sure you're not just doing a chronological. This is the story. Yeah, yeah.

It's bespoke to each audience, if you passionate about it. And there was. Anyway, there was that one when I was in the city center in Manchester, a big law firm and they'd said, oh, we've got this parking space now, you know, I trained at R6 that morning. I'd done a full day's work at school, then I'd been training at the night and then rushed straight there. So it was at the end of a very, very long day. I'd stayed afterwards to, you know, people wanted to chat and ask questions, which. That's my favorite bit really, is that bit after hearing their stories and them sharing things, connecting basically. So anyway, ended up leaving really late, obviously I've got to get up and do all of that again the next day because there isn't that rest and recovery when you're a working athlete juggling too. And then they said, oh yeah, such thing about the car. And I said, oh, how do I get out? They said, oh, you just pay at the meter. And I thought. And I knew I only had like, I think it was 67 quid or something like that left before my next payday. Cause all my money went towards my. My training fees and my equipment. And you know, it's expensive. Any sport is And I got down, it was like. Oh, it was ridiculous. Like 25 quid or something for the parking. And I thought, what am I doing? I've just been speaking to people who earn in a day. Well, I, you know, I was on ten and a half grand a year at the time at the school. I was on, you know, below minimum wages, support staff, didn't have a pot to piss in, really. And I'm thinking, what am I doing here spending, like, 25 quid on. But, you know, and it. And that's what started me thinking, you have to approach this differently. Because I'm not driven by money, which is a blessing and a curse. And if I had to pick one, I'd rather not be, because I don't tend to be a massive fan of those who are. They just have a different value set to me. So I'd rather be like this. But then you have to kind of get a balance, don't you? And I thought, I need to come up with a list of reasons why it's worthwhile or important or necessary or okay even to charge. And I did. And from that moment, it changed. And those reasons were along those lines that you've just said, Laura, that, you know, is it right to go and speak to a company, or anybody for that matter, about what they often refer to as women's empowerment? If I'm there for free and everybody else there is getting paid and the organizer is getting paid, and then I'm driving all that way, incurring costs and doing it for free, how am I part of what I'm asking others to do? I'm allowing businesses in particular then to undervalue women. And maybe I'm putting an expectation on people to expect other women to do stuff for free and undervalue us. So it was those reasons, but it had to be more than money. And it was. And ultimately I felt like I was doing it for something worthwhile. And I still do a free talk for every paid talk I do, because that's who I am. And I'd never. Don't want to do that, you know, but it's important to recognize which. Which are your choice, which is being taken advantage of and all of that. So, yeah, it changed it from there. And public speaking is. Is one of the greatest joys of my life. It really is. It's such a privilege to connect with people and to hear their stories and, you know, to share yours. It's a really stunning thing. And I think one of the things I love about is the same thing That I love about sport, really, that even though with all the technology we've got, I mean, it's phenomenal. How isn't it? You can, I mean, look at you, you're in Lanzarote, being able to chat away to us. Charlie's somewhere else, I'm in Manchester. You know, there's all these things you can do and what it does in sport. You can now have your heart rate monitored. I mean, I've had a heart rate monitor for years now, and if I don't train with it, I'm like, oh, no, I'm in the green zone, I'm in the yellow. Good God. I don't know what's going on, what's happening. You know, I have to train with it. I'm like, I can't train simply not knowing my very current heart rate.

Just speaking to a lot of listeners are triathletes who are obsessed, excessive, compulsive, data freak.

So it's like heart rate monitor, it just don't count.

And if you haven't uploaded it to like training things, you did not do a five hour ride. Yeah, exactly.

But even with all that technology, even with all the science and nutrition and everything else, what it comes down to is that person or people against the others. And you can always have it where somebody's had all the investment, the best science, the best technology behind him, the best team, and they can lose because somebody else just pulls it out on the day. That is incredibly special. And that simplicity of that, mentally being in the moment and really nailing it on the day, you know, it's the simplicity that I love in this very complex world. And that's like public speaking. There's amazing things now. You can have PowerPoints, you can have special effects, you can do this and do that. Ultimately, though, you can also just stand as a human being, wearing your heart on your sleeve, opening up your heart and sharing your story with a group of other human beings and it can still really move us. How is that special?

It's also like sport in the sense that you're absolutely right, it's not. People aren't necessarily naturally gifted public speakers, but it's something you can learn. So if you can go, if you go. I've done public speaking training before. My public speaking is a million times better now as a result of having a few straightforward lessons, like going for a swimming lesson. If you don't know the right techniques, you don't know the mistakes you're making. And so it is something that you can.

And why would you be expected. Why would you expect to be paid for that straight away? So if you're a tennis player, you would expect that as you get better and start winning, there'll be a bit of prize money that comes with that. But when you very first out and you can just about barely do a backhand, why would you be like, oh, someone gonna pay me for this? You know, why would you think that? And it really, it should be the same with other stuff that in any job you start out on at least. Obviously I'm not saying do it free, have your expenses covered, but there's no, nothing wrong with you doing your apprenticeship in it as you build up, you know, and learning. What's wrong with that?

It's a really fascinating, fascinating topic that again, like a whole nother the podcast where it's like, there's a generation and I'm going to probably like insult people here of like, where there's feeling there's that entitlement and it should happen straight away. And it's like, then there's a generation that goes, hang on, you need to put the groundwork in first to build up. And like you said, like you not expect to get paid when you're just starting out necessarily. But then at the same time, if we go back to that inequality message, it's kind of like, well, actually, should we be forcing the issue to, to get that reward earlier on?

Yeah.

Or is it. It's kind of like, do we? Yeah. Anyway.

But I think what you say about the entitlement bit working in a school, which is still. I'm down to part time now because I've got loads of other stuff going on. But the influence of social media on young people is enormous. And really, you know, it's hard to blame them for having that sense of things just going there because that all the time it happens with people who. And I'm not having to go at influencers or reality TV people.

No, let's have a go at influences.

To be honest, I don't think I know any. Like, I don't think I know anyone. I know, I know Tommy Fury obviously, who's been on reality tv, but I know him through boxing. I don't know him as a reality TV person. I knew him because I trained in the gym with him. So I know him as a boxer first and foremost. I don't really know. I'm not in those circles in that.

World because it's not in your value.

It wouldn't be fair for me to say anything about, about them personally. However, you know, the, the implication and the ripple effect is that you can have no skill, no talent, you haven't put the RDRDs in and you can make a load of money and become famous. And I remember at the foot the boxing a few years ago, there's a woman sat ringside and everyone was having selfies with her. I was like, who's that? And he said, don't you know? And it was like, no, I ain't got a clue. They said, oh, it's such a body off this show. And I said, all right, what's that show about? Well, they put all these exes together and she ended up sleeping with suchbody on the beach. And then they did this and I went, what are you. He's all having selfies with her. They were like, yeah. I said, you know, if that was some in your local town, you won't be having a selfie with him. He'd be like, he's been up to, you know, or he. Whichever, like, he's a right one. Him or she's a right one. I said, but because they've done it on telly, it's totally different. And there's a, there is a bit of a danger in that, that everybody was falling over themselves to have these selfies and even some of them walking away going, see what she did? And I thought, but why then have you given that? You know, and that's the. That is also part of the world that we're in. And so it, yeah, this, this is having an impact on young people and it's. That's why I hope it doesn't take over sport and I hope we keep what I consider the sacred bit of sport and that it's there for young people forevermore. Because I don't want that to be taken and I don't see how it could be, because it does require. What does happen is that if you've got a big Instagram following, you may get better opportunities that better able athletes don't. That is starting to happen. However, it can only get you so far that. That's just how it is, you know, in somewhat like boxing, you can have a massive insta following or, you know, whatever some of the other scenarios and you get these big opportunities. But like I say, if someone else gets in, there's nothing going to stop them punching your head in.

I was going to say boxing's quite.

With you.

It's quite brutal like that, isn't it? I mean, it's a bit different when it's racing or you're looking at trying to build brands or if it's team sport. And it's very sort of subjective to a coach or a different thing. But boxing's pretty much black and white. I mean, I'd love to go into like, never boxed. Love the, love the concept of the training. I think it freaking sounds one of the hardest things ever, but that feeling of like. Yeah, just going into the ring for the first time and one either connecting and making that punch or being hit yourself and kind of like that. I mean, yeah, go back to that. Social media, it puts it very black and white, but what's that actually kind of like? I mean, you grew up doing it, didn't you? You were in the gym before you kind of knew it.

That helps a bit. You know, the fact that I grew up doing it as a kid, it's just something I enjoyed. And that fear factor was taken away, really, because you don't have that the same as a kid usually, do you just.

I've done quite a few different sports over the years. Football, rugby, now triathlon, more. And I also did martial arts. And when you're sparring, the adrenaline is just off the scale, isn't it? And you, as a result of that adrenaline, you work yourself far harder. So I think it's. It's on a different level to anything else I've done.

It's also different, I think, because, number one, it actually goes against your brain's instinct. Because your brain's job is to protect you.

Yeah.

So, yes. And people say, oh, it's part of your instinct. Fighting, not weeks in advance. It isn't. That's what they don't understand. If you just are in a car park and somebody smashes in your car and you get out and say, oh, you've smashed it in the car. And then they, I don't know, kick your kid or summer, then that's an instinct where it's in all of us to either defend a loved one, defend ourselves, or, you know, act upon something that's just really annoyed us. And you might just. And afterwards you might go, where did that come from? I didn't even. Now, that is instinctual fighting and that is in all of us. Fight, flight or free, just the way we're wired. It might not be with another person. It might be if an animal attacks you, your instincts, one of them will be to fight it off. That is in us. That's not the same as combat sport. That's not how combat sport happens. It doesn't come upon you when you're like in the middle of something and suddenly you have a big Russian fight. You've got weeks of preparation. You know the other person's preparing, you know the exact date it's going to happen. All your bloody friends and family and wider public are watching. So there's. It's totally different. That goes against your brain's instinct. When you're at risk or in a position of, you know, somebody coming at you. Yes. In that second, you. You'll react and you'll respond. And that, that is the way we're wired. When it's weeks in advance. It's your brain's job actually to say, don't do this. This isn't a good idea. You're agreeing to be punched in the head. What are you doing? Like, and not only that, then you get the fears. That could be from somewhat like public speaking, which isn't a physical risk, but the brain responds with nerves in the same way. But it can't differentiate, can it? You're nervous about, you know, public speaking, you're nervous about sport, you feel it exactly the same. Isn't like a different set of nerves. And that nervousness comes about because the fear of humiliation or completely cocking it up, or like, when I've warmed up, sometimes I've thought, what if I get in and my arms don't work? What am I gonna do? I need a plan B. And then I'm like, right, what are you doing? Your arms obviously gonna work. You know what I mean? So you have all these weird things, don't you, that kind of come about. And like I say, because your brain should not encourage you. It's like putting your hand in a fire. Why would your brain encourage you to. It's a ridiculous thing to get in when you could get hurt, you could get humiliated, you could get badly beaten, and then it's, you know, embarrassing. It's your ego, or it's just that thing that you're going to get in and fight with another human being and you know in advance. That's really weird. So you have to overcome your brain's natural instinct, as you do when you're learning. You know, when you're learning to fight, your natural instinct generally is to turn away from the punches or cover up. It's the worst possible thing you can do because they can just rain down on you. You know, you've got to teach yourself to put yourself in the line of fire, so to speak, with your head movement and actually want to invite a punch just so that you can find a Gap to it, then back. So a lot of it goes against instinct. So there's a lot to overcome, which is why it's one of the most fascinating sports, because other sports that don't do that in the same way, other things, but not that.

So you've gone from on the back of your shorts being called SpongeBob SquarePants to pave the Way. Can you explain how that transition has worked and particularly explain Pave the Way what it's all about?

Of course. So when you start boxing, obviously you have a nickname, don't you? Like the Cobra or the Assassin or whatever. I didn't really have a nickname like a natural one like that, because my nickname was spongebob squarepants, which is what all my mates call me because usually when I get injured and put weight on, I literally turn into a square shaped human, which I pretty much am at the minute. Since I've retired, I'm just becoming a memorial Patrick now more than spongebob. But anyway, that's another concern. That's the Transition after Retirement discussion podcast. Is it?

Yeah.

But anyway, so yeah, I decided to go with instead with something that I stood for and represented and I still had spongebob on my pants, on my shorts, but I had paved the way because I don't really know where it came from. Obviously it's a phrase that already exists, but it just really captured what I wanted to do, which was pave the way for girls and women in my sport initially. And when I had my debut, it coincided with Women's Sport Week, which doesn't happen anymore, but that was the Last one, actually, 2017, something the women in Sport Organization used to do. And for a week everybody would cover women's sport and then just ignore it for the next 51 weeks. But. So it's a bit better now because there's more coverage. But yeah, when I, when I start, when I started, we did like a full week. We did like a Pave the Way week and we did, you know, school visits, community group sessions, we had the photography exhibition of women who work in sport that's on display at the National Cycling Centre, the Velodrome. And that was because there might be, you know, there will be girls who either do a sport that they'll never make a living in it because it's just the nature of the sport, or maybe they're not competitive or it doesn't work out. And I wanted them to know there's all of these careers you can do with whatever skill set you've got can lend itself to a career in sport. But if they don't know what they are, how can they aspire to them? So we had all sorts of women in all sorts of role in sport. And then, I don't know, the week ended and we cracked on and it just. People starting to use the hashtag and it seemed to really resonate with people. And then what happened over the next two years following that, I started doing more and more public speaking and I met loads more women who approached me afterwards and said, I've had the same experience as you similarly, but in tech or law or construction or whatever. So I thought this needs to be about more than sport because whatever advancements are made in sport and social progress manifests in other areas of society. That's the powerful bit that I'm talking about. You know, it can be powerful to the individual, but on a massive scale what sport can do. And if we make things better in sport, it impacts the workplace, domestic life, everything. So I thought, well, this needs to be about more than sport. And then again, through talking to lots of people, when I've been out public speaking and particularly parents contacting me, there were so many who've contacted me, who've got boys who have had that experience. But where they're challenging masculinity, where I challenged the, you know, tradition and status quo, femininity, they've done it for masculinity, doing things like ballet, for example, and they've hit loads of criticism, loads of ridicule. And, you know, there was one in particular and he'd, he'd show me this photo of his son who'd, you know, got this, you know, this certificate in ballet and he was dead proud of him. And he said, you know what, though? He stopped and I said, oh my God, why? And he showed me this video of him doing this, you know, amazing ballet. And he said, just kids picking on him. And he said, and, and I, I said to him, you've got to carry on what you know, keep going doing what you love. And then he said, I showed my mate at work the picture and my mate said, what you raising there, mate? A P, U, double F. And I was like, oh my God, that's awful. And he said, I then had that feeling that my son has every day. And I thought, I almost want to protect him from that. And I said to him, but. And then, you know, stories like that made me realize this can't be just about females. It's nothing to do with gender, actually. It's about masculinity and femininity. And things that go against that. Well, that's long worded. It's easy to say, you know, gender stereotypes should never be a barrier to human potential. What we really mean is the attributes assigned to masculinity and femininity. But that's just a long ass thing to say. But so now Pave the Way is about looking at, you know, gender stereotypes, you know, obviously in a binary way for. For the purposes of what we're talking about and what goes with masculinity and femininity and right across the board to sports at the heart of it. But it's about how it impacts every aspect of us of which there are many. And I hate that. 0 Some idea that if things are better for women, then where do men lose out? If things are better for, you know, black people and where do the. Do you know what I mean? It's not. It's just better for humanity. I think so, yeah. So we got charity status last year. I've just taken on our new next three trustees. So we've got our first meeting with them coming up and we're gonna be launching next year. And you know what's been lovely is there's been some men and women who've been fantastic at giving me their time and energy and experience to help me set the charity up and sort of share what they've learned with me. You know, I know I want to do it, but I'm not sure how. And then I gave a talk at a law firm and a lawyer came up after Robert Nyere and said, what are you doing with Pave the Way? And I said, I'm trying to make it a charity, but I ain't got a clue what I'm doing. And he said, I'll help you. That's what I specialize in, in his help. You know, I mean, he went through it in about three minutes that I've been looking at for months. And obviously it didn't take three minutes to do it. I had to do. He sent me away with bits to do in between. But that guidance was massive. So people like that have kind of sprung up out of nowhere. Certainly the UNLOCK program's been massive. And you know, the poem that I wrote for it for the launch of the new one says everything. That is what I feel. That I felt like I was on board a huge ship with loads of other amazing crew, both men and women, who were part of this rising tide of, you know, it was unthinkable when I was a kid that this, this would be Happening and programs like Unlocked that care about female athletes and value their voice and everything and want to use, elevate their platform. It was just unthinkable. And now it's happening and it's happening more and more. And so Dame Sue Campbell's been brilliant, actually. I did a zoom with her last Thursday and she's put me in touch with other people who have helped her, you know, along the way, sort of, you know, that, well, not helps, but they've done things together, like the Youth Sport Trust and National Coaching Foundation. Emma Atkins has been brilliant. She was an activator for one of the other athletes, but she's really, really helped. She's been fantastic. And it's, you know, it's really lovely if people, you know, are willing to sort of help you along your way and get set up, because it's a minefield to figure it all out. And that's where mentors are really, really important, aren't they? And I think as athletes, that's kind of something that we can bring to the table in any environment, is that we're used to being coached and, you know, we don't have a fear of feedback, we want it. We're like, tell me how to get better. Tell me more, tell me more. What do I need to do? And a lot of people have a fear of that if they've not been in that environment. And I've taken it for granted, particularly since I've been on radio. I've really noticed that, you know, it's difficult sometimes for presenters to take feedback from producers because they see it as, you know, whereas I'm like, what can I do better? What was not better today? What can I do different? And they're a bit like, what? And that, that is the. The environment that I've thrived in is being coached and having somebody who can see the bird's eye view that I can and help me develop and then being able to implement what they're telling me to do. And I think it's a great thing if we could instill that in young people, whether they do sport or not.

Yeah, I mean, you said, like we talked about it earlier about, like the instant feedback you get from data through sport as well, but having that coach and I know it was something I was always kind of like, surprised, like in the corporate world, maybe you'd have an annual review with your boss, maybe that went to half yearly. And I was like, why? Why are we not wanting to create better mentorship coaching in business? Because this is what the Sports world is doing. And look at, like, the success in performance. It does again, whole nother.

What a difference to make. The coaches in you.

Yeah.

Jesus. Some of the most important individuals in your entire life. And then really potentially, you could leave that sports environment and never, ever have that again. And that's sad in a way, which means that some people never, ever have had it or do get it. And that's a real shame. I think there's a, you know, a real area for development that we're missing out on, really, in that. That it could be immense, couldn't it? Yeah, really, really big.

It is actually something that I'm starting to hear more and more of in the corporate world.

How.

Particularly when you're employing millennials, you need to be more of a coach than a boss. And that message is starting to come through in the corporate world more. But I'm very conscious of your time, Stacy. It's been absolutely brilliant. I've got through about a tenth of the questions I've lined up for you, so we're gonna have to do another one of these at some point.

It's been.

Unless Sid's got any questions she must ask before we wind it up. I think it's been an absolutely fascinating conversation, totally inspiring story. I'm really grateful for you taking your time out of a busy day to chat to us and, yeah, just wish you huge success in the future with everything you're doing.

No, I appreciate it. And as I say, I think storytelling is very, very important. And podcasts are one of the few places now where we get to hear not always a story in its entirety. Because, you know, when you've had a career as long as mine, there will be a lot to discuss when you're old, But I think that you don't get that anywhere else nowadays. It's short bit, so it's important.

But that's what's also fascinating. Like, you're not that old. And I'm saying that because we're the same age and I'm trying to convince myself, but, like, just. And this is where we've not even scratched the surface, I don't think, on not even just your sporting career, but those lessons and what we've done. I mean, I was about to open the cupboard behind you and show you my chocolate stash that, like, there's a whole conversation there that I know you've. You've spoken about in other places, but you have so many messages and what you've learned and then what you are trying to do and inspire to others. Like, I. Sorry. Fangirling moment. I love, like, the pictures you're putting up at the moment with your little sister, I think. Well, and your niece, but your little sister. And she's in the gym and she's punching away and, like, she's a little beach.

I couldn't believe it.

Yeah, just those. Those images and that, like, because we.

Have not been able to do much that we're doing lockdown. Like, we've done bits of pads and stuff, but not as much. And they got her in the gym last week, and I was like, oh, my God. Like, she's like a mini tornado. So we're getting a bit worried about her because she's absolutely obsessed. And I mean, obsessed with Titanic. Like, it is every. Everywhere we go, it's like, oh, that's like the Titanic thing. That's. I'm like, right. And I thought, what's happening to her? Like, what's going on here? So when I got her in the gym, I was like, it's all okay. She can smash her bag. She can do the medicine ball. She's not gonna be Titanic. It's okay.

All right.

So I was pretty. Pretty relieved. But, yeah, she's a. It's so good for them, though, isn't it? It's so, so good for them to be in that environment where they're pushing themselves, where they're having the tiny little lessons each time they go in the gym or the sporting environment. They're small, but they accumulate. It's like the opposite to a death by a thousand cuts. There's, like, little stitches being put in place every single time. And it's like, wow, It's. It's massively important for them. So I'm. Yeah, I'm glad that it's a bit of that and not just all about Kate and Leo all the time.

But, yeah, anyway, there is that. There's so much. I mean, even, like, just going on to then, like, the radio presenting in your show there. But, yeah, I mean, we could talk for hours, but thank you. Yeah, I. Come on. Yeah. Love to.

What? Sit on the other week as a guest, Annie Emerson, talking about the Super League, which is phenomenal. And so we're talking about that. But I try and always shed some light on sports that don't get all the mainstream coverage. So, yeah, we'll definitely have you on. But that's. That's where I'm fortunate as well, that I already had. If I'd have had to retire a few years ago, I'd have been in A bad, bad state, at least. Now, the. The saving part for me, I guess, is that I've got other passions. And that's why I really don't like this plan B thing. And when I go to, you know, schools or colleges or sports academies where they've got youngsters, and they'll try and prompt you and say, and, you know, what are your thoughts on Plan B? And I'll say, I hate Plan B. And you can see the go, like what she's saying. And I'll say, like, if you have a plan B, then it means that you're doing. You're not doing the thing you wanted to do. So it's never going to feel as good or as valuable or as fulfilling. The language is very, very, very important. And if you call it Plan B, it's like. And if you look at other things in life that you dedicate yourself to, like your partner, if you're gonna marry that partner, you don't say, well, like that, you know, yeah, I'm gonna marry Dave. But as a plan B, I've. I've always got Jeff. You know, that doesn't work like that. You have to properly. But it doesn't mean that you can't be dedicated to Dave or whoever and have other things in your life that makes the relationship with Dave better, actually. And if it does go wrong, you've still got a life outside of Dave forever. So that's the thing that, yes, you can have sport, it is all consuming. It is everything. It's your passion, it's your purpose, it's your goals. But that doesn't mean you can't have anything else in your life at all. You might bother about the climate. You might be bothered about certain charities or causes. That's okay. Pursue them, enjoy them, because at least there's something else. And it does not mean that retiring isn't horrendous, because I have found it horrendous. I absolutely hate it most of the time. But at least I've got other things that give my life meaning and purpose, so I can compartmentalize that bit. It isn't the whole of me and the whole of my life.

Sorry, I'm one. I will. One question. Retirement for you was kind of a decision. It was your decision at the end of the day, obviously, but it was kind of a decision because it was through injuries and stuff, rather than being on your own, being on your own terms.

Yeah, there was definitely no choice. I mean, I desperately wanted to fight for that world title. And after I'd had the fighting Zimbabwe. I had to have my hand repaired because my tendon had come off.

But it was okay because you didn't get the black eye for your sister's wedding.

Yeah, well, I got a lump, but he got rid of that, so I had to have that repaired. Then I had my, then the first sort of sparring session back. My knee went again. So I. In the last 18 months, I mean I was on crutches three times. I had an another operation, that being my ninth. I had plasma treatment, I had cortisone, I had orthotics. I have the knee brace now. I don't do anything without the knee brace. Like in terms of physical training, tried it all and last summer when it went again, I knew, I knew that the difference then because I don't know about you, but for me, throughout my whole life in sport, whatever injury I've had, I've not been bothered about the long term. To me it's just a ridiculous thing to talk about. So when I've gone in and they were saying this in America, that you're gonna have all these problems later. And I was like, right, right, so when can I play? You know what I mean? It was like not, yeah, talking to the wrong person, like tell somebody else but me. All I want to know is when can I get back playing and what can you do to get me back playing? Oh, well, if we do that, it'll have a long term effect. Ace. Right, let's do that. But what was a bit where you said I could play again? That bit, that's the bit, that's what we'll do. That was all I was bothered about this time it changed because I knew I wasn't going to get to a camp because the three times in the 18 months that I'd stepped up my training, you know, which you need to do obviously to be at that world level, it had gone and I'd ended up on crutches. And when that happened last year, I wasn't even right in the. Do you know what I mean? We weren't even in the gym. We were due to go back in the gym that following Friday because if we've had lockdown, so I wasn't even doing anything like mega, mega. I'd stepped it up a bit, ready for going back in the gym, but. And I thought, and I was on crutches for two weeks. I was in agony. And when I went for the scan, they said they did a different scan other than just the regular mri. And my knee is coming in loads, it shifted loads. And they were saying it's going to collapse, basically. So, you know, I'm going to need a big surgery, an osteotomy, where they take part of my thigh bone out and replace it with a plate. And they said, you need to put that off for as long as you possibly can. So I think, because as soon as that bit was taken away off, I'm not going to be able to fight for the world title. I won't get through a camp. Then it let in this bit of, oh, my God. My actual physical mobility is at risk. I'm not going to be able to do anything physical. Oh, my God. And it was the first time I'd actually cared about that because I'd always thought, well, even if I can't walk, I'll just. I'll have my belt. I'll just wear my belt as I go around on a skateboard or whatever I have to do, you know, and it just wasn't like that then, you know, And I thought, this is different. And it was. Yeah, I knew. I knew, to be honest, it was. I wasn't going to be able to get back to boxing. And that's when I knew and I knew, most importantly, even if I did by some very unlikelihood, I wouldn't be my best and I would never, ever, ever compete not being at my best. One, because that's my sense of self and pride is that I have to be at my best. And secondly, I know I'm not representing just me because we're in the minority. When you box as a woman, you're representing women's boxing. People never watch a terrible men's boxing fight and say, men's boxing's crap. They say he's rubbish or that fight's rubbish. With women, they do if they see a crap when they go women's boxing. And that's it. It's like the whole thing is. So you have to be at your very best. So. And when I had a chat with my dad, who'd been through it, you know, he had to retire. I'm lucky that I've had a very, very long career in two sports. He didn't get that. He got his terrible, devastating injury when I was just, you know, born, and he'd only just got going and we'd moved to London for his. His whole life was just going to take off and then bam, he got this terrible eye injury, which they probably would be able to fix nowadays, but it was a long time ago and that was it. He had nothing else. Ultimately, him and my mum were divorced before I was one, because it wrecked everything in. In their lives. It was just the whole. And when I think about that, you know, I'm in a much different position to that. But he said to me, the thing is, he said, I came back after that injury and I did win my fights, but I wasn't what I was before. And he said, if you come back now and get beat by some of these women, you should be beaten. You'll never forgive yourself. And I thought, he's right. I know he's right. You know, he's been my coach and my dad, and I trust him, and we're very, very good friends as well, and I trusted that guidance, and I know he was right. So it was a multitude of things, but it was. It was. Yeah, it was all I could do. And it is horrible. It's absolutely horrible. But. And it's made me more angry about the inequalities. I'm more angry now that I didn't get to go to the Olympics because they didn't have equal weight categories, that I didn't get to go to the Commonwealth, and that I won that European silver medal and had that phenomenal moment of standing on that podium with a medal around my neck, watching the England flag be raised, going, oh, my God. I couldn't even. It was illegal to do this as a kid. This is. My God. It blew my mind to. Then having to sit in the nosebleed section in Glasgow watching my mates box, who I'd just been with at the Euros. And the only reason for that was my gender, because he just didn't have equal weight categories. But I kind of always put that to the side and thought, but it'll be worth it when I win a world title in Manchester. It'll all be okay. And then, you know. So now I'm really angry about that because it ain't gonna happen. But it's. Yeah, it's. It's very difficult retiring. It's. It's really. Really every bit as horrible as I thought it would be. And I just hope there's a time when it doesn't feel horrible. Do you know what I mean? To think about it. And there's a bit of contentment, because obviously my fear has been that life will never, ever be as good. And I'm trying to reframe that and think, well, even when I was boxing, nothing else I did was like boxing. It was so unique. Anyway, what can be like that? Like you say, Charlie, that adrenaline of Walking out into an arena with, you know, all that's going on, the music and the chair and you're getting in, you're like, I mean, there's nothing like that. And you're just gonna get in a fight with someone and, you know, you go into the wire and you're giving everything that you've got, mentally, emotionally, physically, into that one pursuit. There isn't anything else. I'm not going to get that, am I doing anything? There's nothing like it. But then nothing else in my life was like that. But I still enjoyed those things. So really I should be able to enjoy those other things now. And that's how I'm trying to frame it rather than thinking, oh, I've got to fill a void. There's a void to fill. There's a void to fill. I don't want to think of my life as attempt to fill a void for the rest of it, because hopefully I've got a lot of it left. I want to fill it and still inspire people and see it as a gift and enjoy everything that life's got to offer. Because it is a gift. It's a special thing. It's a fantastic thing to be here and experience it with other people. I don't want that to slip me by. So, you know, you've got to reframe it. But it is difficult, definitely.

That's really interesting. And I've got every confidence that you've. I mean, you clearly already paved the way for many people in what you've achieved and how you've inspired athletes and not just girls, but boys as well. But I also, you know, you can tell from your passion that there's so much more to come on that, and particularly with your Pave the Way charity, you know, I think it's going to be really exciting to see the next chapter. So thank you so much, Stacy.

No, it's a pleasure. And as I say, thanks for doing what you're doing, because sharing these stories and these conversations are very, very important to changing the narrative. So thank you.

You can find out more about stacy@stacy copeland.co.uk and also I will put the link to that and her TED Talk in the show notes. So, Sid, what did you make of that interview with Stacy?

Oh, my God. I think, like, one of my favorite, like, I've just been since I first heard it, being interviewed on a podcast a few years ago, like, just huge fan girl for who she is and what she does. And I mean, I think you tried to close the interview out Several times because I knew she had a time pressure. And then we keep talking like probably down to me asking questions. And then I did get cut off at the end unfortunately with my Internet connection. So I'm not sure quite where it ended up. But like just so much we could have talked about. There were so many things that she said that I wanted to pick up on and just like go down another path with them or just open it up more like discussing more around, like how you value yourself and those things. Discussing more around actually the use of language, which I think is really important. And she mentioned it a few times and touched on it. But like how we use language to kids, adults in sport is like kind of huge. Like, I mean this is probably more what we didn't talk about. Like she's spoken at the un. Like that's freaking impressive. And yeah, there was so much in there. Like I also wanted to like pick up more on. She's obviously got this like inbuilt resilience, determination. Like who ring as a 15 year old who has the guts or the courage. I think probably is more to ring a football club and ask them to kind of can she go down and trial and train and stuff. It's just. And there are other examples of things that she's done through her life that just show. Yeah, what she said, like about grasping that opportunity and being resilient enough to like almost all the setbacks and the. I don't know if you could. The abuse or the negative feedback she had growing up just made her more determined and almost she. Yeah, she recognized it but it was a confusion and it was more that she was just passionate and loved doing the sport and that's what she wanted to do and so she was determined to find a way to do it.

I thought it was incredible, her determination, like you know, all the name calling and all of the hurdles that were put in her way. I mean it must have been awful as an 8 year old being told by a dad that you've got to get off the pitch because you're not allowed to play as a girl. And so, but you know, and so many people would have just decided it was far easier not to play football. But the determination to carry on through and do that. And you know, we tried. I said I wanted to talk about the perception of women's sport. Then we never quite got back to it because there were so many other things to talk about. But clearly, I mean the perception of sport, female sport has come on leaps and bounds in the time that she's been in the sport. And I do think that it's because of people like Stacey that it has. Because you know, it really is, you know, the fact that we, you know, the fact that I wanted to ask her about how, you know, what she thinks about how like the BBC report on female sport now because it's so much more prominent than it used to be. But a large part of that is down to. Is down to people like Stacey isn't Is.

But this is where again where I wanted to go. It is better and we have made huge leaps and bounds, but it's not where it should be. Like you'll get a token gesture of there'll be a few days of women's coverage and then it will disappear again because the men's sport comes. But again and that use of language again, where are we calling it? Men's sport, women's sport and rather that at least that we're starting to get that the progression as well. I wanted to touch on with her around like lockdown and how the last two years, has it halted or has it actually pushed back the progression in women's sport? Or again, is it the language we use that almost becomes a self fulfilling prophecy that women. And how do we change that? Because she's spoken about that as well and things. So yeah. And then like we did again. Well, as that progression. We talked in it a little bit at the end about that retirement from sport and she's clearly struggling with it still. And I wanted to dig more into that. I also wanted to dig into the fact that she's had like nine knee surgeries or 12 knee surgeries and so constantly having to come back from injury and then is that like. And again, knowing that at the time you just want to get out the pitch and play, but then the longer term health effects and stuff. But just coming. I did, I did like the fact that one of her first injuries, which is how she got back into football rather than the boxing was when she was trying to imitate the Karate Kid Crane Crane move and she just said she. She was standing on the banister doing it and she got to the ground floor very quickly. Wasn't a fall as such, but she just got there a lot quicker than anticipated. But yeah, it's just. Yeah, she's. Oh yeah, I was. There's so much I would love to have spoken more to her about and heard from her about.

I was. I'm just looking down my list of all the things I had to talk to her about. And yeah, I I think I maybe got through a third of them there. And yeah, yeah, there was so much to talk to her about and there was so much good advice in what she was saying that. Yeah, I was very conscious about her time because I knew that she had. She's. She's in the process of doing up a house and so she had to meet up. I can't remember whether it was the plumber or the electrician.

Delivered. She's getting the kitchen delivered.

Yeah, that's it. So I was very conscious of that. I also had a meeting, so. But equally, I didn't want to stop what was. What was a brilliant conversation.

I did think one of the things she did say and talked about and it actually, I wrote down here Krista Cullen, which is one of those first. In the first interview that we did, and Stacy talked about it and Krista talked about it about having that bigger purpose. So, yes, she wanted to be the athlete. She wanted to be the best footballer or the best she could be as a footballer and as a boxer. And I was fascinated that actually it was Stacy that had driven all those projects that she did in the US with the youth youth, the young offenders centers and the homeless. And I know she's done loads of projects around the world in a similar vein, but she mentioned it as well about. She just wants to do something where she's having an impact and it's a bigger why and it's a bigger value. And that kind of rung true. Or connected me back to what Krista talked about as well.

Yeah. And in fact, actually, Krista's just a little bit further ahead in that journey, isn't she? Because certainly Stacy with pave, the way the charity work that she's doing now is, that will be, I'm sure, her purpose for many years to come. But, yes, you can see that she needs it because she's still in that tricky time at the moment, having been forced to retire, even though she doesn't really want to. But I'm sure that that charity work will prove to be incredibly valuable to her. Creating a dream retirement.

Yeah. And I think, like, now you can see her passion coming out through, like, the stuff she does, like when she sees her little niece sort of playing sport or her little sister in the gym boxing. And it's almost like she can now kind of have that sporting element through. Through them and through the other kids that she's inspiring. Whether that's. That's boys, that's girls, that doesn't matter. And. Yeah. And then have her. She's now using it, using that platform, incredibly, as a such a powerful message.

And I would encourage anybody to watch her TED Talk, actually. She's got a really good ted talk on YouTube all about pave the way. And it just shows the passion that she's got for.

She's. Yeah, definitely, I would say, people, she's like, she's got a few TED Talks out on her YouTube. She's got a blog on her website, which, again, it's not just. And she spoke about. It's not just a normal. Like I did A, B and C. And it's in chronological order. It really picks up on key points that she's passionate about. And she. I actually, again, another thing I wanted to talk about, like, what she did, what did she study at school and what did she study when she went to America? Because a little bit like John McAvoy, she's got this, obviously got this fascination with history and numbers and wanting to know the facts, which is great because you need that to. To formulate a good argument or to back up your feelings about things. And she's obviously as passionate as she is. It's very easy to kind of learn or take an interest in that information.

Yeah, we didn't talk about it, but one of the other things that was on my list was sort of going back to education later in life. And you can see that from listening to other interviews. That's been a really good source for her. So. So, yeah, so another fascinating interview. Let's wrap this up because it's going to be another monumentally long podcast. But that. But that's good. That's good. So just to remind you that this podcast is brought to you by Precision Hydration, and I promised you a discount code. So if you use the discount code Tribeathlon15 at the checkout, you'll get 15% off your first order of electrolytes. And if you go to the show notes, there's also this code for 15 off the. Their online course on training peaks all around hydration. So, yeah, in the meantime, enjoy Lanzarote.

Thank you. I was just saying we can put the links to Stacey's TED Talks in the show notes as well.

Absolutely.

And also, if people are trying precision hydration, do drop us a note, like, tell us how you're getting on, what you like about it or what you don't like about it. I think that feedback's good as well.

Absolutely. And, yeah, and I would also encourage other people to try that online sweat test just so that you know what you're doing with. With ordering the right stuff at Precision Hydration, because that. That I think has been really helpful for me. Brilliant. So we'll call it a day there. But in the meantime, thank you, Sid, and keep on training. And don't forget to download the Tribathlon app for more amazing podcasts, but also to help you train, compete, and to build your tribe.