Self-coached Ironman with Joe Skipper

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Athlon podcast finding out how ordinary people do extraordinary things.

Unsuccessful people like to look at the negatives and successful people like to look at what they can do and what will make them better.

Going ahead, that was Joe Skipper and this episode is self coached Ironman. Welcome to the next edition of the Tribeathlon podcast. And in this edition I got the opportunity to chat to Joe Skipper. So Joe Skipper was the winner of Ironman uk, Ironman Florida and also Ironman New Zealand. But he's also the British record holder for the most miles cycled in a 12 hour period, which was an incredible 325 miles. Imagine that. Imagine cycling 325 miles in a 12 hour period. Quite astonishing. Anyway, Joe really fascinated me because he's self coached, he doesn't have a coach, which goes against so much of what we hear and what we read. So I really wanted to explain with Joe how he's actually been improving his swimming during lockdown because that seemed like a very difficult thing to do. But Joe has been working really hard on his technique, so I want to explore how he's been doing that. I also wanted to get a feel for what typical training week looked like for Joe, you know, training for Ironmans and the like. Does he train more or less than a typical pro? And what does that, what does that typical pro look like? And then I also wanted to explore a bit about the Helvellyn Tribe triathlon because it just recently done the Helvellyn triathlon. For those of you don't know, Helvellyn is up in the Lake District and it is a very lumpy triathlon and the run is basically fell running, the sort of fell running that we've been talking to Nikki Spinks and Damien hall about and Beth Pascal, you know, so it's proper steep climbs and running down craggy slopes. And I wanted to know how Joe adapted to that given his, his traditional Ironman experience and also whether it sparked an interest and whether he'll be going back to do more of those style of races. There's loads to take from this episode, so I hope you get as much value out of it as I found. This episode is brought to you by Brits Superfoods. Now, I've mentioned a few times in these podcasts that I regularly take wheat grass. I did so for about seven or eight years. Didn't pick up one ailment or bug during that time. Then I stopped taking it. And guess what? In the following couple of years I did pick up bugs and colds and things like that. So I reintroduced taking wheat grass. Haven't had a ailment since. But what I love about Brit Superfoods is that this is fresh wheatgrass. So it's, it's organic, it's grown outdoors and then it's frozen. So instead of using the powders, which can be tasteless often and lack some of the nutrients because you're having frozen wheatgrass, it's much better quality. So I love the Brit Superfood wheatgrass. I have it regularly in my smoothies and also I really like some of their superfood juices as well, particularly the beetroot one, great for boosting my nitrates before or after a long endurance event. So you can find out more about Brits Superfoods if you go to the Show Notes, there's a link in there and if you order through that link you'll get a free gift from Brits Superfoods. You can also find out more about them@britsuperfoods.com this podcast is also brought to you by the Tribeathlon app. The best place to find your next event. Whether you're interested in cycling, running, swimming, triathlons, duathlons, obstacle based races, whether it's on the road or on the gravel, you can find, search for and track down the best events for you to compete in. And not only that, you can find the ones where you know people that are entering as well. So you can have the most fun experience entering those events because you know other people that are attending. So go to trimathlon.com to find out more and download the app. So Joe, I'm really excited to get you on the podcast. Can't wait to chat to you to find out more a bit about the strategies behind your success. But for those people that don't know who Joe Skipper is, which for those people, I know that the people in the Ironman world will definitely know who Joe Skipper is. But for those people that don't know the iron man world so much, do you want to tell us a little bit about your story, where you've, where you've come from and what your successes have been along the way? Tell us a bit about you and your story so far.

So yeah, I got back, I got into triathlon when I was at University back in 2000, end of 2010, 2011. Ish. And I was just doing cycling before that. But well, I actually did do triathlon when I was really young, you know, like 14, 15, but never really that seriously. Just, you know, dabbled at it I guess. You could say then when I went to university, I got more into the cycling side of things, but got back into triathlon 2010 just for something a bit different, really, and really enjoyed it. And then 2011 was my first proper year of actually training and racing triathlons and I was doing that alongside university. I finished university actually, like halfway through the season of 2011 was doing all right and basically to you know, sum up a not too long winded way, I just got a bit better each year and took it more and more seriously and went full time really, and was racing at an okay level as a professional in 2013, but have just progressed from there, really bit better results every year and that's basically where I am now.

Fantastic. And you're.

Talk us through some of your highlights of the, you know, some of your highlight races at the moment, you know, that you've done so far, the ones that you've had the most success in, the ones that kind of meant the most to you.

So the ones that probably made the most to me, my top ones would probably be winning challenge weymouth back in 2014, because that was my first professional win and I got a decent amount of prize money for that, which was massive for me at the time. So that was a big one. And then challenged ALMERE Back in 2017, that was the European Long Distance Championships and that was the first one I won since Weymouth. So it took me three years to win my second one. And I almost thought that I was going to get. I was going to win in 2015 because I was second at the North American Championships, which was a massive race. But it took me another like, basically the whole of 2015, all of 2016 about win. And right towards the end of 2017 where I finally did it and it was kind of like I felt like I took a massive step up after that because then in 2018 onwards, I've won a race every year. So it was like it took me ages to kind of get my second one. Once I got that, I got some momentum. Ironman UK 2018, winning that, that was a massive one for me because obviously being a Brit and winning your home. Ironman. My girlfriend's parents were there, I think my dad was there for the race, my friends were there. So that was obviously massive. Doing it in front of like home support, if you know what I mean. And then top 10 in Kona for the first time was a big one because it was just getting you, you know, everyone wants to get a top 10 in Kona to kind of show that you can compete at the top level. So that was in 2019 and that was good to do because it showed me that I could compete at the highest level. So, yeah, they're probably my favorite ones also, actually Florida, because I did that in 2013 and finished in about. God, off top my head, it might have been 11th place, 13th place, something like that, quite far down. But I was like nearly half an hour behind the winner. So to go back there six years later, break the course record on the same course and win the race was massive because I went about. Almost 30 minutes quicker than what I did six years before.

And that's. Is that quite a hot race? Does that mean you're quite. You quite like these races in the hotter temperatures or.

I do like them in the warmer temperatures. Not Kona temperature, but like, you know, 25, 30 degrees is like quite a nice temperature for me. But Florida wasn't too hot. That was only about 25, so it was quite a nice day. It was like be a nice summer's day back in the UK for that one. So that was a good one. But, yeah, I mean, I don't like them piping hot, but a nice hot summer's day in the uk, you know, I mean, saying that I've raced Roth, that should. That could probably be classed there as one of my best races as well. Second, the first time there when Jan Frodeno got the world record was quite good because obviously challenge Ross one of the biggest races in the world. But I mean, when you get used to racing in the European summer, they're all pretty hot. I don't think you get a race on the continent in July or August which isn't warm. You know, they're always like going to be hitting 30 degrees in the peak of the day. So it's just the humidity. Once it gets like over 70 or 80% humidity, I really suffer. But if you're racing in hot 40% humidity, I'm absolutely fine. I really like that.

Fantastic. And obviously Kona's not happening in February, but happening in October. What are your expectations for Kona next year?

Well, I'm aiming for the podium next year in Kona. You know, I've been like seventh and sixth now. So the next logical step up is going for the podium. And I think I could have got it this year or, you know, last year I think I was fit enough to if I had, like a decent race, but I don't really feel like I had that good a racing Kona. I felt a bit flat on the bike. Didn't feel that that good and had my best run in that I've done out there, but it still wasn't that good a run. You know, like, I lost quite a lot in the heat compared to other. Compared to some of my competitors. But, yeah, I think another. Obviously it'll be two years next time I do it from the last time I was there and I'm getting. I'm coming to the peak, whereas a lot of the guys that beat me are getting quite old and they're getting slower. So I think it's got to be the next logical step has to be going for the podium.

Fantastic.

And why do you think you were.

A bit flat on the bike when you were there last time? Have you put that. Have you kind of worked out what.

You think went wrong?

Well, I think sometimes you can feel, you know, you can do everything right, but you still know, guarantee in sport that you're going to feel 100% on race day. But also, I raced Ironman Wales about five weeks before and I think that kind of took the edge off me a bit with doing the work, doing Ironman Wales and traveling out to Kona, the heat and. Yeah, just one of them things. I mean, luckily for me, I was in really good shape, that even if I did feel a bit flat, I was still good enough to be able to stay with the group on the bike. Um, but yeah, and also, like, the puncher was what kind of cost me as well, because I got a puncher literally four or five miles before transition. So I lost like 90 seconds. I would have been coming in with the group that was coming in from third place downwards, but ended up starting the run to a minute and a half, two minutes behind the guys in that group.

Right, okay.

And also you won Ironman New Zealand.

As well, haven't you? So how do all these races compare in terms of which one is your favorite race, do you think? Not just from the one that you won, but which race do you think? I just have to keep going back for that one.

Oh, God. They've all got something unique about them. I quite liked Wales, to be honest, because that had a great atmosphere, but the timing of it's just a bit rubbish. September, if it was in July, then I would definitely go back to it, but with it being quite close to Kona, I think that kind of impacts it a bit because I wouldn't do it if I was training for Kona again, you know, so that's a real shame for that one. So that, that kind of puts that one off and then New Zealand's great. It's like the start of the season for us. So you can go out there, train in some warm weather and do that race. And the course is good. New Zealand's a great place to train in. So it's like the whole build up is fantastic for that. Yeah, Combine that with.

Do you do Wanaka beforehand, is that right?

Yeah, I do Wanaka beforehand, which is a half distance and do a bit of training on the south island race Wanaka and then we head to the north island or this case we headed to Christchurch and did some training there. The temperature in New Zealand at that time is fantastic, you know, 25, 30 degrees every day. Um, which in February is perfect for us because if I was back home it'd be freezing cold. And then Roth's good big race gets a good. Lot of people follow it, good atmosphere. So they've all got unique aspects to them. You know, all the courses are different. There's just so many races that I love to do.

And did I hear that you wound.

The Kiwis up a little bit by sort of playing down how easily you were going to win Wanaka?

Yeah, I've done that. But unfortunately I might have wound them up, but when it came to the race day, they got the better of me. I've never had a good race in Monaca. Every time I've gone there I've had a crap race but then raced really well at the full distance. Two weeks, two or three weeks later.

It does amaze me that you seem to pack in as many Ironmans as anyone I see. I mean, I think I remember. Did you do three Ironmans in seven weeks?

Four weeks, was it?

Three and four weeks, was it?

Yeah, three and 28 days.

Wow. And how do you think, I mean, have you sort of, you know, is that something you intend to continue? Can you continue to perform at the top level by doing that or is there anything you do with because you're doing that regularity of events?

No, I don't think it's a problem, to be honest. I think people overestimate the recovery from nine man. But it's eight hours. It's, you know, it's a big day, but it's not that much bigger than your biggest training days, to be honest. And I think when you're racing as a pro, you know, if you're training 25 hours, 26 hours a week and it's intense as well. Like some of my biggest days where I'm doing like efforts and stuff, feel, you know you're doing them without a taper. When you do an Ironman you're tapered, you're fresh as anything. And four days after I'm normally fine, like I feel great. I've actually hit my best 20 minute power on the bike four days after an Ironman before, you know, and you can't do that unless you recover well from it. And also if you do them in close proximity it only takes one taper and then a tick over. Whereas actually if you have six or seven weeks behind it, it's probably going to impact you more because you have to do some training. You can't just tick over for six weeks or not do much. So in actual fact I would rather do an Ironman and then do another one three weeks later or two weeks later than I would do an Ironman and then do 17 weeks. Because then once you recover from that second one you're actually going to find yourself you're probably extremely unfit and you probably won't perform that well in the second one. So I think it's much better. And also normally when I do an Ironman I actually find I get a big boost to fitness. I'll do it and then two weeks or three weeks later I'll feel absolutely fantastic. But I guess that's because I'm used to it and that's just me. You know, some people might take longer to recover but I personally don't find the recovery too bad from an Ironman.

So over the course of a season, what do you think your optimum number of Ironmans would be? If you had the perfect year, everything went according to plan. There was always an event that was at the right time of the year. What do you think your perfect number?

Well, either three or four probably.

Right.

Like I'd like to do one at the start of the year because I think that motivates you. If you winter training, you get a decent block of training in. So say like something like New Zealand in March because that keeps you going in like December and January you're quite motivated so you get a really good winter's training. Then I would say one or two in July or you know, kind of time, you know, I'd do one taper bang in two races, maximize that and then turn my focus to Kona and target that in October.

Fantastic.

And then I would say It'd be a 50, 50 as to whether or not you'd want to race after Kona. It could go well or it could go really bad.

Yeah. And how do you find? So also. So tell me about your 12 hour record because we haven't touched on that yet.

Yeah, well what did you want to know about it?

So for anybody that doesn't know about it, tell us what you did and then we'll kind of drill into a bit of the details, I suppose.

So it was a 12 hour time trial which is basically you ride as far as you can on a given course for 12 hours and I managed to do 325 miles, 325.5, that was the official distance and beat the old record by about four miles. So yeah, become the British record holder for it. And yeah, like what details did you want to know as well?

How was it?

Mentally very challenging. Like I'd say the mental aspect of it is a lot harder than an Ironman. Physically. I'd say an Ironman's tougher because the impact on the run you get and just the intensity what you race, an Ironman is just more intense. But eight hours, you know, it's quite a long, still a long day out. But mentally during the 12 hour, because you know you're gonna be out there for 12 hours, you do go through some dark patches, you know, around like four or five hours in when you come, you know, you're a bit fatigued but you're still not even at halfway.

Yeah, I mean it sounds like, I mean that's a phenomenally far this long distance to cycle for a long period of time. It does sound like mental torture if I'm. If I'm honest. What, how did you, I mean how do you stay down on the aero bars for that long and you know, I suppose how do you maximize your aerodynamics for something like that?

Well, I have the same position for that as what I do for an Ironman so I haven't changed it. But I guess some of it comes down to having a strong core. Practicing in your aero position as well. You know, when you got training and probably, yeah, just having a good position, you know, like not just necessarily the fastest position that you can't hold. My position actually feels comfortable so you know I can hold it, it's not a problem. And yeah, you've got, you've obviously got to have the core strength. So it's just a mixture of like three different things I guess that enables you to hold it.

Fantastic. I mean it is an incredible achievement. So well done. And I did watch that, I did watch your YouTube channel video on that and yeah, I mean it's well worth anybody watching because it just Kind of highlights how. How difficult that is.

It is.

It's fantastic. And how has your training been? So. So you. Am I right saying you did Ironman New Zealand this year?

Yeah.

And then obviously haven't been able to race any Ironmans since then. Um, how is your. How did that impact your training? Have you dealt with COVID from a training point of view?

Well, it.

On your moment of glory on the BBC website, because I did hear about it.

Oh, yeah, well, it was going well up until probably I came back from Embryo man when I did the training camp out there and then I did a 5k race on the track the week of the 12 hour, and that was probably when I was kind of at my peak, around that kind of time. And then obviously the taper for the 12 hour, doing the 12 hour, recovering from it, kind of took a bit of the edge off. And then I went back out to Embryon because the race got cancelled, but we had a holiday. We thought we'd go out there for a holiday, but then had to rush back because of the quarantine rules on France, so ended up spending five or six days pretty much in a car, just driving basically back and forth. Yeah, I know. Nightmare. And then I did Davos or tried to do recently, but it got cancelled, so ended up tapering for that and then not really doing much training. So. The last six weeks have been dreadful, really, to be honest, in terms of training, but up until then it was going really well. I struggled at first not being able to train with anyone, you know, and having to do it by yourself, but once I kind of got into the swing of things and they said that you could train with other people, that was great. And I actually managed to get in a really good block of training because I just kept it consistent. And then with the training camp, what I did do in France for 11 days, got into some really good, really good fitness, but, yeah, I've just had a few distractions the last six weeks, but I'm really looking forward to just getting back into the swing of things and getting a really consistent block in and maybe Race and Challenge Daytona in December, if that goes ahead.

Training was going pretty well in the kind of start of lockdown, but obviously not so well later on. Tell me about your little. Your kind of moment in the spotlight when you were. When you were training at the. In an early stage of lockdown.

Yes, it was towards the end of March and I did a 325 kilometer ride with a friend and it was just after, I think we went into like more of a lockdown where you're only allowed out once a day. It was like basically that week. So like a couple of days it literally a couple of days into it and it went like viral on the Internet. Like people, some people were like really critical of it and saying that you shouldn't be out doing it. Other people were like, what's the problem? You're only out cycling, but ended up going on the BBC News, like web front page with like Lionel Messi and like someone else apparently next to me. But yeah, it just went absolutely crazy. I got a lot of abuse on Twitter. Some people trying to stir it up on Facebook as well. Guy Mark Livesey, I don't know if you know him, but he was trying to stir it up on Twitter and Facebook and just basically trying to get people out to lynch me. He's a bit funny like that. But yeah, he was one of the ringleaders around it all.

It strikes, I mean, I live in.

A rural part of the world.

I mean, you live in Norfolk, so it's a very rural part of the world in the same way that Rutland is.

And, you know, my approach to lockdown.

Was that, you know, you needed to, you got. But you know, you need to keep away from other people and do all of the things to be absolutely safe. But cycling around the roads here or around the roads in Norfolk, you kind of. You're lucky if you do see anyone, aren't you? So it did strike me that there was some people that went vigilante during that time and other people that sort of thought, well, actually, I'm being sensible, but I've also got to keep training. And all the training is relative to an individual, isn't it?

Yeah, totally. And the roads are really quiet here as well. And to be honest, I had some of my best rides in lockdown. You barely see a car on the road. You'd go to the North Norfolk coast. Normally if you go up there in like May, June time, it would be really busy. You got there in like this, the weather was fantastic. 20 something degrees and you wouldn't see it. You barely see a car. It was absolutely perfect, you know. And also people are saying you shouldn't be doing anything. You shouldn't be doing anything because there's no events on. Well, in actual fact, you needed to be doing stuff because now the events have started. We've had very little notice that they're going to be on because it was almost like one week, events were getting cancelled the next week. Oh, this race is actually going to go ahead, you know, and you're like, no one really knew it was going ahead until literally that week because they were cancelling them so late. So to all the people out there that were saying, you don't need to do any training, you're not going to be racing. Well, yeah, we are racing and we've actually been given very little notice, you know, because no one knew whether or not they were going to get cancelled or they were going ahead. But I don't think a lot of people understand, as a professional athlete, you can't do nothing for three months, jump on your bike for four weeks and expect to be competing at the top level of sport. You have to keep training. And also, if you don't keep training for a year, for three months, it can take a hell of a long while to get it back. But also, you don't just want to be back to where you were. If you can use this time to actually improve your bike and you can improve your running by training more obviously we couldn't swim at the time, then why would you not do that and use it to take yourself to a better level? You don't have to. A lot of people are there, like to look at the negatives and think that, you know, you can't do that. What's the point? What's the point when in actual fact, they should be looking at it as an opportunity and thinking, why don't I use this time to actually improve myself and get better than I was before? So when the racing does start or next year, that I'm in a much better place to get results than what I am this year? And I think that's the thing, isn't it? You know, like, unsuccessful people like to look at the negatives and successful people like to look at what they can do and what will make them better going ahead?

Absolutely. There's good experiences and learning experiences.

So I couldn't agree with you more.

And so touching on that, I heard you say on a podcast that you bought an endless pool over during lockdown so that you could focus on your.

Swimming.

But you were focusing more on technique rather than swim fitness and saw it as an opportunity to really refine your technique as opposed to just kind of keeping up with your swim fitness. Talk to me about that. And what do you do to refine your technique? What have you been working on to improve your swimming?

So I've been videoing myself in there and just looking at what I need to do to what it needs to feel like to swim. A lot better. So video myself and trying to change it, but getting used to that feel of like, what it, how am I, how I feel, putting my arms in everything with better technique, finding what drills will help me rehearse that technique. So when I'm in the pool, I don't go back to my old habits. I've also found that breathing to my left side, I'm way better than if I breathe to my right. Normally I breathe my right side, but my technique and body position, everything is a lot better if I breathe my left. But I've just been trying to rehearse that so that when I breathe to my left, it feels as comfortable as what it did breathing to my right. Obviously my technique's a lot better that side. A lot of drills, just trying to rehearse good techniques. I've actually done very little main sets. I haven't really done any, to be honest. And it's just like steady swimming, but just trying to rehearse that good technique, try and get it ingrained. And so that when, when it, when it is ingrained, I can start building the fitness back on top of that. And then I should be on to a much, you know, into a much stronger position than what I am now because there's no point me smashing the main set and trying to improve technique because all I'm going to do is just rehearse bad technique and get to where I was before. But in order to actually improve, I need to make sure that swim with good technique is second, second nature. And then I'll start adding the fitness, doing a few harder sets and stuff like that, and hopefully I'll be swimming the harder sets with good technique and then my fitness will come on and I'll be in, you know, I'll be a lot stronger swimmer.

And are you analyzing those yourself because you don't have a coach nowadays, do you?

No, I just analyze it myself. So I get my girlfriend's mum because actually at her house, so she's videoing me and then she sends them to me on the phone and I have a look. I mean, it's quite easy to know what, what you're looking for. You know, like high elbow, good pull, engaging the lats, looking at the recovery, seeing how my arm enters. And with the phones nowadays, you know, you can do it on super slow mo and you can see exactly how your hands enter in the water. And, you know, I don't think it's that hard to kind of analyze your stroke. You know, you can look at videos online and See what a good technique looks like and there's a lot of people talking about it and telling you what, what you need to do. So, you know, the main thing for me was seeing what drills I should be doing which will actually help improve the aspects of the stroke which I want to improve.

Fantastic. And now that you've kind of got.

Used to using an endless pool and do you think if all the pools were open and everything was back to normal, you'll still find a place for your endless pool? Is it serving a different purpose?

Yeah, the main purpose of it is just it's really good for video analysis because the person can stand next to you, video it and you can, you can, you know, you can do six or seven strokes or ten strokes and you can look at it, you can do it again. It's really quick to go back and forth, back and forth. And obviously with mirrors in it, you can see your stroke under the water while you're swimming, which you can't do in the pool. You know, you can't have a load of mirrors in the pool at an angle and see how your hand goes through the water, how you're rotating in real time. You know, you might be able to look at it on the phone or look at it on video, but you can't see it while you're swimming. So it's absolutely fantastic. For technique stuff, for actual normal swimming, I'd say it's probably better to go in a pool because it's, you know, it's just nice. But for technique stuff, I think it's better to do it in an endless pool.

Fantastic. Yeah.

I mean, they do look like a.

Really valuable training tool.

And it's got a Jacuzzi on it as well, so you can sit back with beer afterwards. You can't do that in the pool.

Is that how you sold it to your in laws?

Yeah, they've been making more use of it than me because it's got like a night, it's got a fantastic sound system and a Jacuzzi in it as well. So they go and use it for that.

I think I might have to use that as a sales technique on my wife, actually. I reckon they must have sold a bumper load of endless pools during lockdown.

Apparently they're all sold out. Like mine's a master spas one, so it's not actually the endless pool. So mine's a master spas.

But yeah, no, I'm definitely toying with investing in one as well. And I remember hearing that you've been quite injury Prone, I don't know what. Over your career, what injuries have you tended to suffer from and what have you done to avoid those injuries going forward?

Well, I haven't actually been that injury prone compared to other people. I've only ever had three injuries in my whole career, like, and one of them was back in 2010 or 2011, I think, and that was an Achilles. But that put me up for six weeks, which wasn't too bad. And I didn't actually have my next injury until 2018. So I went for seven years without having one. That was my lower, lower disc in my back, which came on around when I was in Ironman New Zealand, the next one. And that just took a while to get back because obviously it was a disc. So you had to wait for it to heal and then there was nothing you could do. It was literally just about waiting until it got better and then doing some rehab stuff. So using your glutes and make sure your glutes are all firing and everything like that when I got back. But the next injury didn't happen until 2019. That was partly from doing gym stuff, going a bit too deep, doing squats, which I think put a lot of pressure on the muscles there. And then when I was running, something obviously set it off and that put me out for about three months, that one. And that was just a case of literally waiting until it recovered and then getting back into it. But they're the only two injuries I've had luckily, so, I mean, but three injuries. But the first one was literally just five or six weeks of not being able to run. But I mean, even with the other two injuries, I was still able to bike and I was still able to swim. I just couldn't run. So I could still keep pretty fit, you know, so they weren't too bad.

You do anything specifically to avoid injury nowadays?

Well, not really any different than what I was before. You know, I was just. I was doing gym stuff before I doing my normal swim, biking and running. But I think if you're training at a high level, injuries are inevitable really. You know, when you're training 25 hours a week, pushing your body to the limit, you can do stuff to prevent them, but they're going to come, you know, like at some point there's nothing you can do about that, you know, it's just when they come, what you can do to get back as quick as possible and how you can maintain fitness as best as you can.

Fantastic.

And what made you go too self coached as opposed to how long did you have a coach for. And then how long have you been self coached and why?

Well, I was coached originally by a guy called Paul Savage in Manchester and then I stopped that when I kind of moved back to Norwich or went away to Spain for six months. Because I think a coach is great if you can actually see them and you're with them like in person, but when it's remote coaching, it's completely different. So I kind of went self coaching then and I got a coach in 2016. I had them for a while, but I think I actually went slower with a coach and I was improving beforehand. And then back in 2017, April 2017, I went back to coaching myself and I've been back coaching myself like, you know, since then. So I've only actually had a coach really, if you count, say from 2012 onwards for seven months of the whole, in like eight years. So I've pretty much always been like self coached and so.

And so when you're self coached, do.

You still program your whole training schedule into training peaks or do you just know what is coming?

Yeah, I just. Just do it off my head. Off piste.

Does that mean that you kind of.

You can do more training that feels right as opposed to what you've scheduled in, or do you still stick to a kind of mental plan?

I have an idea of a plan, but I mean, it will change because, like, depending on how you feel, which is the beauty really of doing it. Like, you know, if I feel really tired one day, then I'm going to tweak it because why? A plan is just like exactly what it says on the tin. It's just a plan, isn't it? You know, it's not, you have to do this, you know, or you're not going to improve it. It's literally, this is a plan. But if things go well or if things go bad, it will be tweaked. So I obviously tweak it. You know, if I've got, I've got my key sessions, what I want to do. If I'm feeling tired going into them, then obviously I'm going to tweak it a bit because there's no point going into a key session tired and not being able to like, maximize it. And also I find it, if you're too tired week in, week out, you're not going to improve because your body's not getting enough rest to adapt to the training. So, you know, there's no prizes. We don't hand medals out on race day for who's done the most training to build up to the race. It's all about who's the fitness on race day. And that's making sure that you do the right training, but making sure that you can adapt to it. And you know, the training is actually making you faster. So that's the, that's one of the keys for me, and I said it on another podcast recently or I think on one of my YouTube videos, that a coach is only giving you their idea of what they think you should be doing. It's not a guarantee to success. It's literally just them saying, I think if you do this, this will be the best for you. That's basically what they're saying. Because no one can guarantee that if you do X, you'll get to why, you know, because we can't, otherwise we'd all be doing the same thing and we'd all be absolutely racing at our peak, you know, like 100% of what our potential was. So it is literally just their opinion. But they also don't know how you're feeling day in, day out. You can try to describe to them, but when you're doing it yourself and if you, if you're used to it, you know exactly how you're feeling, you don't need to run it by anyone.

And so, so do you tend to therefore train more on feel than on data or on power or, you know, how do you monitor that and how do you.

Well, I use data all the time. Like I use heart rate power for all my bike sessions. Respect when they're intervals. I mean, when I'm not doing interval training, I'm not so bothered about looking at heart rate, but I'll always look at power because otherwise if you weren't looking at power and you were just going by feel, how would you know you actually feel bad because you've got no data to back it up. You know, you might feel tired, but if the power is saying that you're going well, you're not actually that tired. It might be a bit of mental tiredness, you know, but your body is physically responding quite well. So I'll obviously use data to back it up because otherwise there's no grounds for how you're feeling. So I'll use that. And I've just been doing it for so long, you know, I know what pace is a steady run is, I know how it feels tired wise. I know if I've got muscle soreness, I guess I've just been doing it for so long. I know exactly how I'm feeling I've always been training at some point in my life for as long as I can remember, since I was like 7 or 8 years old. You know, like, I guess when you've been doing it for 25 years or like, you know, three quarters of your life, you know, you, you just know what feels right and how it feels.

And what does a typical training week look like for you? I know that would change over the course of a year, but what would a typical week, a month or six weeks before an Ironman look like for you?

Well, I'd do like two speed sessions on the run, probably like a fresh old tempo based one and a speed one where I'm doing like, you know, reps between like 1500 and 5k pace, something like that. And then they'd be like, obviously like on the track, I do a tempo session on the bike and a VO2 Max session on the bike. And then on the swim I'd try and get like two good swim sessions in a week as well with intensity. And then the rest of it's pretty much steady training, you know, to fill in. And that is the bit where I'll play it by ear.

And so that's, so that's two key.

Sessions of each discipline a week. And then roughly how many others would you slot in? You know, how are you?

Very. God, I don't know, maybe like six runs in total, five or six swims, five, maybe six bike sessions, like in total. So I guess maybe like between 15 and 18 sessions, one or two gym sessions. So probably, I don't know, 20 sessions a week, maybe something like that. 18 to 20 sessions.

And relative, relative to other pro athletes in Ironman, do you think? I mean that sounds like a lot to me. Do you think you train more than most people or is that kind of.

No, I think I probably train less than most of them. Okay. Like I think a lot of them do probably more. I mean, I say like, yeah, probably like it could be five sessions of each. It might be like six of one, but it wouldn't, it wouldn't necessarily be six sessions of each one every week. Like it might vary a little bit. Um, but yeah, definitely be doing five sessions of each discipline, like definitely each week. You know, if I'm in a decent, in a block of training.

And what would your longest run typically be in something like that?

13 miles, 14 miles.

Okay, so not a massively long one.

No, like 90 minutes, something like that.

Right. Okay.

And what's the thought behind not doing.

A long, long run within it I.

Don'T feel like I need to, like, you know, it hasn't. Doing a longer run hasn't resulted in running better at an ironman. So when you look at that, how you perform on race day, and if you don't need to do a long run, then why do it? You know, because a long run takes a lot more out of you than the other sports. And if you're performing well with not actually doing one, then why would you do it?

Yeah, no, absolutely. And coming to nutrition, have you found any particular techniques or, you know, tricks that have helped you? I know you quite like your coffee. I see from your videos, you definitely like your coffee because that your coffee machine seems to feature quite heavily. But, but do you use caffeine in a particular way? Are there any particular products in the nutrition world that you really like? How do you fuel your training and your events?

So, yeah, I have caffeine during the race and like before it to give me a boost and then gels. I think a little trick is just putting a lot of gels in a bottle and having them on the bike because you don't have to carry them with you. But I mean, just, I guess just for most people practicing a nutrition strategy and training, you know, I know like if I take three or four gels an hour, then that's a decent amount for me. So I'll work out, put it in the bottle. But there's not really any secrets really because it's so different for every person that it's just finding nutrition, you know, like finding gels or bars you like the taste of and sticking with them for an ironman and seeing how much you can take on without causing problems.

Yeah, I mean that amazed me actually when I was watching your YouTube video, the amount of gels you're getting through.

And I know, you know, if I.

Was doing that, that would not be, you know, I'd definitely be having some GI issues if, if I was consuming that number of gels. But it is interesting. Yeah, I suppose that's, that's great advice is you just gotta find what works for you and what doesn't work for you and then. And then practice it.

Yeah, exactly.

And so in terms of advice you hear in the ironman world, what's the worst advice you hear?

You know, do you.

Is there any advice out there that you think, Nah, that's just nonsense. I don't agree with that.

Yeah, coaches getting their athletes to do effort to ironman pace garbage ever. I just think it's junk pace. It's too slow to gain anything physiologically from it, but it's too fast for an easy session. I think it just tires you out and I don't actually find you gain anything from it. And also coaches that prescribe intervals in an easy run where they do change in paces, I think that's constant garbage. Like an easy run should be done purely by feel. One day it might be quicker than another run, but the whole, the name of the sessions on the tin easy run, you know, like you don't need efforts in it. You just run at what feels like a nice pace and it's just like ticking the box and like, you know, getting the volume in but at an easy pace. You know, it doesn't. It's not a session where you're actually trying to really, you know, do reps at a certain pace. But I see a lot of coaches prescribing certain changes of paces in these easy sessions, more probably to justify their coaching rather than for the actual athlete's benefit.

That's interesting. So you're. So you're basically saying when you're running fast, run really fast and when you're running slow, run really slow but don't do anything much in the middle.

Well, yeah, not necessarily running really fast because you could do a tempo run, but that's not really fast. It's like a controlled effort. So it's not necessarily like you have to run really fast. But like if I'm going for any say I see people that are going for an easy run, say their easy pace might be seven and a half minute miling. The coach has got them doing like one minute at seven minute 30 mile and do five minutes at seven minute marlin. And then we're going to do a minute at 6:30 miling or something like that, you know, which is just complete garbage. Not actually gaining anything from it. It's just more. But I guess as a mental thing, but it's probably tiring them out. And then when they do their efforts, they're not actually able to hit the right pace or they have a bad session or they just end up, you know, not feeling as fresh as what they should do. Whereas like, why not just say it's a 45 minute easy run run by feel, go somewhere nice. I know athletes that won't run on like trails or off road because their coach has given them certain paces on easy runs and they can't hit the paces. They don't want that. It's too hard for them to hit the paces on it on a trail. Which is absolutely ludicrous to me. Like, you should be going on trails and enjoying an easy run and it should be as much as a mental recovery, as much as physical. You know, like, there's no strict paces, it's just literally going at what feels like an easy pace. If you were going with someone, you know, you'd be chatting the whole way around and not worrying about what times you're hitting.

And that leads. Yeah, I think that's great advice actually.

And I think, you know, I've just been for a long run this morning. Um, and you know, it is as much kind of mental, you know, for my mental well being as it is for my training. And I think it's, you know, the.

Idea of doing that not on the.

Trails where I'm kind of exploring a beautiful part of the world just seems, seems alien to me. You mentioned within that your. And earlier on that you kind of, you didn't enjoy training on your own so much. So who's in your training? I mean, obviously Tribathlon, the app, is about bringing people together to train and compete against. So who's in your training tribe? And you know, how much of your training do you do with other people versus on your own?

Just loads of local athletes really. So local friends and I try and train with them as much as I can, but obviously it's hard. It can be hard to try and fit in just because of when they're working and stuff like that. But I'm kind of always organizing sessions and try and get in as much people as we can involved. So I'll probably try and train with people if I at least every other day if I can. Like, ideally, like, the more the better, really, because I just find it's more fun and you get more out of yourself if you're training with other people. So that's one of the reasons why I went to Nottingham to train was because there was a lot more people training and it was a lot more fun. It's a lot more fun training with other people.

Yeah, I couldn't agree with you more. When I got into triathlon, most of my training was done on my own. And since I found cycling groups and I still run on my own, but since I found cycling groups and guys to swim with, it's absolutely, massively transformed my accelerated my improvement, but also my enjoyment. I do think it must be fairly intimidating going for your Saturday morning cafe ride and knowing that you're as part of the group and trying to hang on to the back of you. I dare Say, that must scare a few of your tribe.

Yeah, it probably does because it's hard to get people to come out.

And so actually one event I didn't touch on is Helvellyn. So I'm really intrigued by Helvellyn, mainly because I've been interviewing quite a few ultra runners as part of this podcast. So Nikki Spinks, Beth Pascal, Damien hall, all of which are kind of. So I've been talking about things like the Bob Graham round quite a lot. How has Helvellyn compared to all the other events that you've done?

It was really unique because it was such a different course than what you normally get. I mean, the swim was freezing cold in Ullswater for starters, and then out on the bike course, the bike course was like hilly, but it wasn't too bad until you got to the struggle. And then obviously that was like the massive hill, like, which is pretty tough going up and different than what you'd normally get in a triathlon. But the main bit of the course which really separates it from other triathlons is the Runway. You know, obviously you run up Helvellyn, which I wasn't sure what. What it was actually like before I got to it, because I hadn't done any recce on it, you know, because we lived too far away. So it was all new to me. As I was going, it was just so steep and like off road on rocks. It was just completely different than anything I'd ever experienced. And I think one of the kilometers on the run, we gained nearly 300 meters of elevation in one kilometer, which is like as much as what you get on most Ironman courses. I mean, people say that Wales is really hilly, don't they, you know, on the run? Well, the first two K's of the run in Helveland gained as much run as elevation as what you get on the whole of the Ironman Wales run course. So just imagine combining all that into the first two K's of the run in Helveland, and that gives you an idea. But then Helva then carried on for six and a half kilometers in total. So it was just crazy, crazy steep. And then the downhill, you're running down like really steep gradients that completely trash your legs. You know, you don't feel too bad at the time, but I'm still feeling it now. We're on Friday in my legs. I went out running today and it was like a slow plod, really, and I'm still feeling it in my legs. Five days on which Considering the race is not even as long as a half distance, it's shows you like how much the hill takes out of you.

And did you enjoy it?

Yeah, it was good fun. Like it was like more of like one of them races. A bit like an expedition race, you know, like you kind of do it for the experience, you know, it was great to tick the box and do it. I don't know if I'd want to do it every year, but to say I've done it and at the time, like, looking back, I did really enjoy it just because it was so different than what you'd normally get.

And has it given you an appetite for more fell running?

No, no, it hasn't. Like, actually it's probably put me off doing fell running.

And what about more adventure triathlons? Do you think you'll do more of them? I mean, I know you were going to do. And is it Emberman?

That's it, yeah, yeah. I mean Emberman's like miles compared to that. Like, you know, the run on Emberman's pretty fast, to be honest, and the bike course in Emberman is hilly. But it's not. If you worked out like how much climbing there is on. Well, actually it's probably a similar amount of climbing as what you get on Helvellyn on the bike, if you like traveled it, you know, which the bike course in Helvellyn isn't really crazy, you know, I mean, the struggle's hard, but up until then it's just undulating, you know, up and down, there's nothing massive. But yeah, it's definitely. There's a lot of adventure races like that, which I would like to do to tick the box because they're kind of like your bucket list races, aren't they? So like Norseman, I definitely like to do that Alpe d' Huez triathlon, obviously, Emberman is definitely one because after going out there and wrecking it, it would be absolutely awesome to race triathlon there. So, yeah, I mean, it hasn't put me off doing any of them.

And will you go back for another go at the 12 hour?

It all depends on how it fits in with triathlons. Like, I wasn't going to do it, but it fit it in all right this year because obviously there was nothing else on. So it all depends on where it fits in the schedule, really. Like if there's an opportunity to do a big ironman, then I'd obviously pick the big ironman. But if there's nothing else on, then I would do the 12 hour just because it's so easy for me to get to, you know, the race starts 15, 20 miles away from where I live. So it's only a 15, 20 minute drive to get there. So it depends on what, how the schedule looks.

I thought I'd ask that question because I think after both times you've done it, you've said never ever again. But you've obviously, you're obviously creeping back.

Into saying, well, yeah, it's just because of the mental toll and like it's such a long day. But I mean it's like when you do an ironman, you don't really want to do another one, but it like you soon forget how bad it was and you know, it is a good challenge, but it all depends on how it fits in. But you know, it's so easy to do. I mean the hardest bit is getting your support crew because they've got to give up the whole day and help you for it, you know. So the hardest bit is getting them really to help you because you can't do it without a decent support crew. But in actual terms of like how cheap it is to enter, I think it costs like a tenner. It takes 15 minutes to get to, you know, you can stay the night in your own bed. So it's like hassle free in terms of that. It's just getting people that will give up their day to help you out.

Brilliant, brilliant.

And over your sort of years of.

Experience, are there any books, books in particular? But if not books, then maybe podcasts. But any books that you found to be really helpful for you or you find yourself recommending regularly?

No, not really.

You're not a book reader?

Not a triathlon book reader? Like if it was a murder mystery, then yeah, I'd be up for it. But yeah, I'm not really one for reading triathlon books, to be honest.

And any podcasts that you particularly enjoy.

I don't mind any of the triathlon podcasts, to be honest. I mainly, if I'm listening to them, it'll mainly be because there's an interview with someone who I want to hear interviewed. That's what mainly I listen to. But you know, your standard probably triathlon podcast, like theater radio, auction addict, Iron man talk, but it's met. What gets me listening to them is just if I like the sound of the person who they're interviewing. But again, most of the podcasts I listen to, like your murder mysteries and stuff like that, you know, bit different, so bit of a story behind it.

And do you listen to stuff when you're out on the bike or do you just. Are you just in the zone all the time?

No, I listen to podcasts normally when I'm out on the bike. If I'm doing an interval session, then I'll have some, like, tunes, absolutely pumping. But if I'm just going for a steady ride, I'll pretty much always listen to something. It's rare that I wouldn't. Same with running as well.

Fantastic. And what are your goals for the year ahead? You know, if we're chatting a year from now, what's going to have happened for you to be happy with the.

Year you've had, make it through Corona in one piece? I don't know really what would be fantastic in my eyes. What would be fantastic, which is probably a bit different than what you expect and would be if we get a vaccine for Covid and everything starts to turn back into normality and there's races on and we can get back into racing and doing everything, which we enjoy. That would be, for me, if we could get back to that. I'd be absolutely over the moon and the, you know, actual racing and the results will take care of themselves because, yeah, I'll be training hard and stuff. I'd just love it if we could get. Get back to where we were before COVID hit, really, which I'm sure pretty much most people would be over the moon with that and anything else would be a bonus.

Yeah, no, I agree.

I think that would be fantastic. I mean, it's great that we've had, you know, events starting to happen now, like Helvellyn. I know we had Ironman Thailand last weekend, although we still not got, say, Ironman Italy, which is the one I did last year, happening. So. Yeah, hopefully we'll find a way that we can get some more money.

Exactly, yeah. Just getting regular events on the schedule that, you know, are going to take part instead of constantly being like, you know, you enter a race and being like, I hope it's going to take, you know, I hope it's going to go ahead. Like, which is what you're thinking, like, two, three months out, like, you know, there could be races that are on the calendar now for March and April, but you wouldn't bet. You wouldn't be 100% sure that they're actually going to go ahead even now, would you? So I'd love it if we could get to the point where it's, like, what it is normally when you enter a race and the last thing you're thinking is the race is going to get cancelled, you know, whereas now it's like the last thing you're thinking is is this race actually going to go ahead?

Yeah, yeah. Well actually that's why I didn't do I was supposed to do Tallinn this year and back in June when we were being asked to do you want to defer to September or 2021? I just couldn't see it happening in September so I pushed it back to 2021 and amazingly it did happen and annoyingly a couple of mates went and did it as well. So I'd have actually quite enjoyed going and having a go at it. But yeah, but yeah, if somebody was trying to get into Ironman, is there one piece of advice you'd give them that would help them on their way?

Yeah, probably. It's not as hard as what you think when you look at it. It's a bit daunting when you look at the distances and you never feel like you're ready until you've done your first Ironman. You know like you always think like in the build up to it I'm not ready. I'm not ready when actual fact you probably are. It's just that distances are so daunting it makes you feel like that.

Brilliant, excellent advice and I would absolutely agree with that. What worries me is somebody said that your first Ironman is your easiest so I'm slightly daunted by my next one but who knows. Anyway Joe, it's been an absolute pleasure chatting to you. I've loved listening to your podcasts and you're watching YouTube videos and there's some amazingly valuable advice in this podcast. So a huge thank you for giving up giving up your time and I wish you amazing success. I hope you get to go and do Daytona and hope we all get back to some racing and I'll be watching you very closely. So a huge thank you. I'm sure you'll agree what a lovely guy at but also so much to learn from, so willing to share so many good ideas. I particularly loved his approach to improving his swimming technique over lockdown with his endless pool and getting his mother in law to record him and then analyzing it on against YouTube videos and what he knows to be a great swim stroke. So I particularly learned from that but also his approach to self coaching what the bad advice that he thought, you know in terms of what some of the coaches are getting athletes do. I thought that was really interesting and there was stuff to be taken from that and of course his approach to lockdown as well and his, his long ride and, and how he dealt with the, the abuse that he got on the back of that. So I'm sure you'll agree. Great guy and I'm I know for a fact that he's going to have a great year ahead of him. So again, I hope you've enjoyed this episode of the tribathlon podcast. If you are enjoying these episodes, please do review them and share them. It really helps us. If you've got any recommendations as to people that you would love to get on the podcast, then let me know. Even better if you can introduce me to them then happy days. And so please do get in contact with and you can find us@tribathlon.com the app is soon going to be live. It's not live yet, but it will soon be live. I'm reassured by my developer, so we'll I'll let you know as soon as that goes live. But as always, my name is Charlie Reading and keep on training. And remember, this podcast is brought to you by Brits Superfoods. So they're the number one live wheatgrass juice experts producing field grown, organic and freshly frozen nutritious wheatgrass. And I absolutely love it. If you go to the Show Notes, use the link there and you'll get a free gift if you order your wheat grass or one of their superfood juices. And don't forget to download the tribathlon app for more amazing podcasts, but also to help you train, compete and to build your tribe.