Superhero Running with Aly Dixon

Foreign.

I'm charlie redding. And I'm laura siddall and this is the tribathlon podcast.

And then here I am in a lift with Mark Cavendish, who just came in from a training ride. So he was in his Lycras, so, you know, it's quite an awkward situation to be in anywhere. And then, yeah, he says, like, oh, what event are you? And I'm like, I don't know. Then I went, no, the marathon. I do actually know what I'm doing here.

That was Ali Dixon and this episode is Superhero running. Hey, tribe, how you doing? Sadly, Sid and I couldn't get together this week to have our usual conflab. She's busy getting organized to race in Austria and I am in Cornwall with the family. So as a brief introduction before we dive into the brilliant interview with Ali Dixon, the amazing marathon runner, there's just a couple of things that I saw this week that I would share with you or a couple of experiences as well. So the first thing is I had a swimming lesson recently with Mary Hardwick, who is somewhat infamous in, in my local area. She runs a company called Inspire to try, but she's got one of these amazing endless pools that, that's fully kitted out with all the cameras. And last year, obviously my swimming was all over the place. We were doing mostly in, in open water and I found that my technique has really fallen away over that time. And so it was brilliant to be able to get into a pool. Have her point out on video what was going wrong with my technique. And some simple, fairly simple improvements that I found really easy to change in my stroke, but have massively upped my performance, but also are making the longer distance swims less tiring. So really suggest, you know, there's so much performance to be gained from looking at your technique with swimming as opposed to just training harder, you know, training smarter and improving your technique. I remember when I was interviewing Joe Skipper, he was saying about the fact that, you know, he uses the swim spa to really hone his technique and that's what I'm trying to do now. So check out the options. I mean, in Spa2Tri are absolutely brilliant. I'm gonna put the video on there or try and put the pre before and after video on the show notes. If I can get it just so that you can see the difference in what was going on, because it really is worth doing if you, if you're, if you're going to be doing triathlons or even just any swimming, just getting a lesson every Once in a while can really hone your technique and give you some significant improvements. Another thing I saw that was interesting this week was a write up from Precision Hydration about Emma Pallant Brown, who we interviewed a couple of weeks ago winning the Ironman 70.3 in Florida. And they were just kind of commenting on her overall fuel, nutrition and hydration strategy. And so she was taking on 65 grams per hour of carbs on the bike and 56 grams per hour on the run. So she was front loading the carb int whilst on the bike, which makes a lot of sense because you can tolerate a lot more on the bike, as we probably all know. And she was generally using chews and drinks on the bike when she could obviously, obviously chew and then switching to gels on the run. And that seemed to work really very well for her. In terms of fluids, she was kind of, it was pretty hot. I think it was 28 degrees and 96% humidity. So that's pretty torturous running. But so she was taking on 800ml per hour and that has obviously proven to, to do, do her very well. Then in terms of sodium, she apparently is a high sweater, but a low, kind of relatively moderate sodium. So she was racing with 430 milligrams of salt per liter. And I think it's just interesting to kind of look at how these pros, when they're working with companies like Precision Hydration, are really fine tuning the their nutrition strategy. And it kind of comes back to that interview that we did with Andy at Precision Hydration on that ratio of carbs to liquid to fluid to sodium. And obviously that will change per athlete, but it'll also change per race. Like with Florida being very humid that you know, there'll be a high amount of sweating going on. So I think just thinking back to that is, is is really useful when you're kind of planning your nutrition strategy. And one other thing that sort of jumped out at me this week was the Monster Triathlon is going to be back on in 2022. This sounds amazing. It's another one to add to the bucket list. I think it's seven days from Loch Ness to London. So you do a 5k swim in loch Ness, you do a thousand kilometer bike from Loch Ness to Windsor and then you do a 50 kilometer run along the Thames to finish. What a brilliant seven days that would be. So if you're looking for a race to add to the bucket list, why not add the Monster Triathlon? Anyway, without further ado, we will dive into the interview with the amazing Ali Dixon. Ali Dixon is a marathon runner from Sunderland that has done good from humble beginnings in the local running club to running for Team GB in the Rio Olympics, twice being British and English marathon champion, breaking the women's 50 kilometer world record at her first attempt, and holding the world record for the fastest half marathon dressed as a superhero. That one I particularly like. But she still holds winning the local blade and races as one of her best achievements. So she's absolutely fantastic. Fascinating lady. Sid and I got the opportunity to chat to her about the importance of the running club scene to her both at the start and now as an accomplished athlete. How to make self coaching deliver more. Because she switched to self coaching quite a while ago and her performances have just gone from strength to strength since she did. And she had a number of running books to recommend that I'd never read before, or some of them I hadn't even heard of before. So there was a brilliant list to add to my reading list. Anyway, I know you're going to really enjoy the interview with Ali Dixon. So, Ali, welcome to the Tribeathlon podcast. Sid, welcome back as well. Really looking forward to this conversation. So, Ali, first things first. You know, for those people that don't know that much about you, do you want to kick things off by just telling us a bit about your story? You know, how you got into running, some of the amazing things that have happened on your. On your journey through the sport.

Yeah. Ali Dickson. Born, bred, raised, still live then up in Sunderland, God's country, second best place in the world.

Where was the first bet? Where's the first best place?

Fontaine Moor.

That probably answers one of my questions I was going to ask.

Rewind, rewind. But no. Yeah. Based up here in Sunderland. Yeah, kind of. I've always been. Emerged in running literally from the day I was born. My dad was a marathon runner and you know, the day I was born he was meant to be doing a 10k race and had to miss it because my mum went into labor. Which.

Has he ever forgiven you for that? Is that.

Well, I think it took until like 2016 and standing on the roadside and where you are before I actually went, okay, I forgive you. But yeah, kind of, you know, back then our house was kind of the hope for him and his mates to meet for training. So, you know, it's always been around us and I was dragged around the country watching him race. I remember being down at London Marathon for the first ever London Marathon and kind of as I got a bit Older. I remember being down there and kind of people collapse and as the running past and, you know, I have vivid memories of saying my mum, I'm never doing this. This is just crazy. So, you know, it's kind of. It came back to hit us. But yeah, I actually joined the club, the local club, when I was, I think I was about 11 or 12. I was in the first year of senior school and one of my friends at school was a member and she came in, she was like, oh, we're going to Flamingo Land, which is a theme park up here. So I was like, oh, I want to go Flamingo Land. So, yeah, I went home and I was like, dad, I want to join the happy years. And he was like, yes, get it. I was like, only. So I got Flamingo Land. And, you know, it's quite apt and you know, when I do talks and that in schools, kids find that quite good. And it's good because, you know, it has been a roller coaster ever since. And I know that sounds really cheesy, but, you know, it is a good little story sort of thing. So, yeah, that was when I was like 11.

So was that trip to Flamingo Land as good as you hoped it would be as the 11 year old having to sign up then for the Harriers Club?

Yeah, it was a good day out. I enjoyed it. I do remember not being allowed on the biggest roller coaster because I wasn't tall enough.

I used to hate those height things.

I was like on my tours and everything, they're like, no, in short, they.

Always filled me with dread for my entire childhood.

But no, it was good day out and, you know, I made some more friends that were members of the club and yeah, kind of. I think my friend packed in about a year later and here I am nearly 32 years later, still going. So. But yeah, kind of, you know, of those 32 years, there has been a lot of ups and downs. I remember, you know, people always say, like, when did kind of you start dreaming of becoming an Olympian sort of thing. And I wrote in my record of achievement at 16, as I was leaving school on my ambitions page, I said, you know, I wanted to be a physiotherapist in the Royal Navy, which again, I couldn't get into Royal Navy because I was too small or if I stick in with my running, you know, represent Great Britain at the marathon, at the Commonwealth Games or an Olympic Games. So it was something that I did always have ambitions of. But like most kids, you know, you know, a lot of Kids, especially up here, they want to be Premiership footballers and that most kids have these dreams and they pretty much know they're not going to happen. So for me, it was always a dream and, you know, I was quite prepared, you know, for it not never to happen, but I'd give it a damn good go. And 25 years after writing that, I did eventually make it. So, yeah, it was quite, like I say, a vulgar course with a ride. Nothing's ever straightforward. There was lots of ups and downs, lots of knockbacks, lots of setbacks, but I stuck at it because I loved what I was doing. And, yeah, eventually got there.

Amazing. And so what? So let's pick out a few of the highlights of that running career. You know, I'm guessing that Rio was one of them, but, yes, give us a few of the highlights because there's so many amazing.

I'm just looking at the wall behind you. Obviously the listeners can't see that, but we are very privileged to see you have, I'm guess, every one of your sort of representative vets, like, across the whole room.

I haven't got my first one because my mum and dad's got my first one on their wall.

Oh, nice.

Yeah. But, yeah, the rest of them, I've got them. Well, I haven't got my VO1, if you notice, because that's downstairs in the sitting room. You want to show something like that off. But I do if I move my head flag. Yeah. So I've got my. All my vests up on this wall and then on the far wall over there. So you two can see I have my majors numbers, which has a spot left for where hopefully Chicago will go one day. But, yeah, kind of highlight of it, obviously is, you know, Olympic Games. It's the pinnacle of pretty much any sports, you know, bar and football, where the World Cup's their pinnacle, you know, ethicate. If they're in an Olympic sport, they dream of becoming an Olympian and to get to that stage and stand on that start line, you know, there's only. I think it's five and a half thousand Brits ever competed in a summer or Winter Olympic Games. So it is a very, very kind of elite private club to be part of. And as the old saying goes, once you're an Olympian, you're forever an Olympian. So, you know, it's something that'll live with us forever. And it's quite strange looking at it because, you know, I've always been a massive fan of the sport and as I was growing up, looking at Olympians they were like, you know, they were just, they were gods to me. They were just on this massive pedestal and I was like, wow, you know, that must be brilliant. And now that I've got that kind of, not that word after my name, it's kind of even five years on, you're still pinching yourself and saying like, really? You know, and, you know, there's a lot of times where I think like, you know, did I deserve it? Sort of thing, because, you know, I've never seen myself on the same level because, you know, you look at them and you think, Linford Christie, Sally Gunnell, you know, all these top ones. But it's not just about those ones that are out there winning medals. You know, it's just being there and competing and seeing that you have. Getting to that level and you have been to an Olympic Games. It is, yeah, a very, very special thing.

What was it like going to Rio? You know, talk us through what your experience of being mad.

What was it like sharing a lift with Mark Cavendish?

Crazy. I've never been so starstruck before in my life. I thought I was playing it cool, you know, I'd been on the massage table and I'd had the Mary brothers either side of us and, you know, I kind of chilled that one out. And then here I am in a lift with Mark Cavendish, who just came in from a training ride, so he was in his Lycras, so, you know, it's quite an awkward situation to be in anyway. And then, yeah, he says like, oh, what event are you? And I'm like, I don't know, the marathon. I do actually know what I'm doing here. I'm not just some crazy woman.

Full security.

Yeah. Like, luckily the doors of the lift opened and I just got out and then like I suddenly stopped and thought, I hope this wasn't his flaw because obviously there's only the two of us in. But luckily it wasn't. So, yeah, I walked up another 10 flights of stairs just to make sure I didn't see him again.

But apart from that. Yeah, what was that whole. Yeah, it's just Olympic Games because as, yeah, as a kid, it's. I've always been that sports fanatic.

And then like, you hear from other people that been to Games, you know, obviously I've got a lot of friends that went to London and that and they were all you saying about the village is amazing. It's just like, you know, everything's free, got 24 hour free McDonald's and, you know, you go into Samsung shop and they give you a free four. And, you know, and it was absolutely crazy. And I always said, like, because you have the kitten out experience, and that was great. And then it was still kind of didn't quite feel real. And I was like, oh, feel real. You know, when you get to the airport at Heathrow, you're checking in and everything, but then you're checking in behind Chris Froome. Gordon Ramsay's put on free breakfasts at his restaurant. And you're sitting there, you know, and you're looking around. You're like, geraint Thomas and all this. And then you stand and wait to get onto the airplane and, you know, Princess Royal walks past you. You're like, this isn't real, you know, so it's just absolute craziness. And then, yeah, it's kind of like I was quite chilled out in the Holden camp because you were in with all the rest of the track and field athletes. So that was just like any holding camp. But then you get to the village and, you know, it's this massive village. 11,000 of the world's best athletes cross. Like, I don't know how many different sports it is, and you're just wandering about, you know, you seem bold and Michael Phelps and. Yeah, I had a bruise on my arm where I just kept on nipping myself to make sure I wasn't dreaming. Luckily for me, the marathon was quite early on in the program. So I watched the marathon. Sorry. I ran the marathon and then I got in to watch some more of the sports. So I went to the Belladrome. I managed to see some tennis. I saw the girls win the hockey. And, you know, and these are things that you can never do again. So I had a lot of people saying, like, oh, have you been to Coca Cabana Beach? Have you been at Sugarloaf? And that was like, I could literally come back next year and do that. I can probably never, ever see Great Britain win hockey gold again. So, yeah, I was just.

Let's hope you can from there.

Yeah, I could watch it on tv. But me actually physically being there in the crowd, you know, sitting a few street seats along from Steve Redgrave.

Did you then, with the marathon being quite early on, did you stay in the village? Because often, sort of athletes come into the village maybe specifically for their event, and then they'll leave. Or were you in.

I think it was like three days before, and we came into the village. And that's really good because especially for me, with it being like, my first games, you go into it. And all of a sudden you just have all this kind of, you know, excited, nervous energy. You're almost bouncing off the walls. So if I went in from kind of like the opening ceremony and done a week in there, I would have totally worn myself out just by, like, being totally starstruck with everyone. So, yeah, the kind of. The. Be aware, they're very, very good at looking after us that way. And, you know, they said three days is enough. And then, yeah, I had. I think it was about eight or nine days left of the Games. So I just stayed all the way through, went to all the hospitality houses, picking up all my goodies and went to a few parties. And, yeah, it's kind of, you know, partying in British house with Claire Balden. And it's just, you know, these things, they just. Now you look back on them and you just laugh and you're like, really? Did that happen? But, yeah, it was just. I just made sure I soaked up every single bit of it. And I was lucky. My parents came across Procter and Gamble, provided them with a hotel for five nights, otherwise they wouldn't have been able to afford it. And, you know, meeting up with them the day after my race because my mum gets really, really nervous when I race. So I told her, I'm not seeing you beforehand because, you know, I don't want your nerves put onto us. And I saw them the next day and they were just, you know, we were all just overcome with emotion and, yeah, just having them there, part of it, it was just, you know, made it a lot more special. But then they went off sightseeing and didn't invite me.

Sounds like you had better invites anyway.

Yeah.

So how did the race go? You know, did it go according to plan? You know, what was it like? How was it?

Yeah, because of conditions, obviously. It was like, really, really hot. I'd prepared really well for the heat, so I didn't find it quite as hot. Like my mum and dad were saying, like, they were melting just standing by the side of the road. And I was like. I don't really recall it being hot, but I have watched it back a few times and you're like, yeah, it is really hot. But, yeah, just, you know, you don't go to an Olympics trying to run a PB or anything because, you know, the conditions and just the nature of the race. You're racing it rather than running fast. So I just went out and I think the first 5K split, I was like 76 or something. And I ended up finishing 27th. So, you know, that was a mixture of me just going off nice and steady, picking my way through the field, but also other girls went off too fast and, you know, start becoming like a war zone with bodies on the side of the road because you had to do four laps of the same loop. And yeah, kind of as early as 10k that were just, you know, dropping out, collapsing all over. And I just made sure every time we went past a water station, which I think they were every mile, grab a bottle, take a small sip and the rest just over your head, your shoulders, your legs. And then I have my carb drinks every 5k. So, yeah, it was just literally, you know, just get through it. And also I wanted to take my time a little bit so I could just soak it in and enjoy it, you know. So I wasn't trying to run at 2:30 because I was like, no, I want those extra five minutes of enjoying it. But yeah, I went to plan and, you know, I did come through strong and finish well and.

Yeah, and were you. And were you happy with 26 as a place? Because it, I mean, it.

Yeah, definitely. Because I was ranked. If you put, like it on pbs, I was ranked way, way lower than that. I think I was ranked outside the top 50. There was like a. I think it was. So I was ranked kind of near the second half of the field and, you know, I beat a lot of people that are faster than me on paper. But, you know, like I said, some of them were, they just ran suicidally. But, you know, there's a lot of people that look at those conditions and go, this could be my chance, you know, and go for it. But the sensible people, they just want it nice and steady and tough to pick through. So, yeah, I was really pleased.

Brilliant. And you nearly got into Team GB for the London 2012, didn't you? Just missed it fairly closely.

Not really, no. No, I had. Back then there was A standard and a B standard and I had the B standard, which was 235. And I'd ran like 234something. I can't remember what it was, but the a standard was 231, I think, and the third member of the team around 227. So, you know, I could always say that I had run the qualifying time, but in theory I was like more than a mile away from actually qualifying.

So, yeah, I was going to just ask, do you think you would have. Were you in better shape to do better at Rio or at London in terms of timing?

Definitely, at VR, I had a lot more experience behind us. I'd made a lot of mistakes going into London and I'd learned from them. And then I changed my coaching set up. I started coaching myself and, you know, added things like strength and conditioning, like proper going in the gym and lifting weights rather than just, you know, piddling about. And yeah, kind of, yeah, I was just a whole different athlete between those four years. A lot of change. Just kind of my mentality, I wasn't kind of. I was confident in myself, but I wasn't as cocky. Kind of my first few marathons, I was a bit cocky with it. And yeah, kind of the more I did and the more I went up, kind of the more that cockiness came away, which, you know, sometimes it's the other way around. But, yeah, I think I was just a bit more kind of assured of where I was and what I was capable of rather than, you know, saying, I can do this, I can do that, and not doing it, I was now doing it. So letting the feet do the talking.

So what was then the difference or that trigger point of going, so until until then, you'd had a coach and you'd been working, working with someone. But then, like, the thought to me of self coaching is just. I just couldn't do it because I would just be hopeless at trying to. And that's with, I would like to think, years of experience. So how do you go about kind of making that decision and then setting up the training and holding yourself sort of accountable or having those conversations where you wake up in the morning, you're like, oh, I'm not feeling very well. But is that. That. Is that a proper judgment call or is it just because I don't. Does that make sense?

Yeah, yeah. At first it was tricky. I did have a few people that I used, like, as a sounding board. So I contacted my dad's old coach because, you know, my dad wanted to 21 back in the day. And, you know, my theory was obviously he made me half my DNA is linked to him, so surely what worked for him should work for me. You know, hopefully that I didn't get my running genes from my mom, otherwise he would have got no background. Actually, my mom's a really talented runner. She just doesn't like doing it. But yeah, I contacted Alan Story, who coached my dad, and just said to him, you know, tell us what my dad did. Because obviously you don't want to ask your dad because then, you know, you kind of say to them, I want to be like, you but yeah, I spoke a lot to Alan and the stuff that he was saying that my dad used to do was the kind of ideas that I already had in my head. So it was things like extending your tempo and, you know, running your temple at you go on marathon pace rather than go and try to run them all eyeballs out, which a lot of people do. And longer long runs again, kind of, you know, 24, 25, 26, even more. You know, I didn't take it well. I took it up to the 26.2, but I didn't take it beyond. But Alan was like, you know, there's nothing wrong with doing a 28 mile run because it's getting your body ready for what you want to do. Yeah. So a lot of it kind of was the same ideas that I had and that kind of like give to me somebody like Alan Stall that you, you know, he's one of the best in the business. If he's got the same ideas as me, I must be on the right track. So I started implementing them and literally a year later I went from 234 to 231 to Brighton. And you know, Brighton's not the quickest, of course, and everybody after that was saying that was a sub 230 at Berlin or London or something like that. But yeah, 231:08 I ran at Brighton. And that reinforced to me that I was doing things right. And, you know, I'd made the right decision a year earlier to leave the coach and go self coached. And then I got into a few of the UK camps, mainly over in Kenya, and I got friendly and got to know Paula Radcliffe quite well and she was obviously coming to the end of her career. Then she said, you know, I'm always happy to help you if you want me to look over things, you know, chat through things and that. So, yeah, she started putting input in and she was. That one bit where you said earlier about if you wake up and you're not feeling too well, I am quite good at that. I know the difference of like, you know, between being knackered because you're generally overdoing it and just being knackered because you're training hard. And I am quite good at kind of reading the signs of illness and that sort of thing. But one of the big things that she did was like, rein us back a bit. If I start getting carried away because I'm not an athlete where I need a coach to push me, I would need a coach just to go wait on, you know, come back you don't need to be doing 130 miles a week.

So.

So yeah, she had a big input and helped a lot. And yeah, kind of the self coach, it's not for everyone. You do have to have a lot more discipline because like I say, you haven't got a coach saying get out that door, go and do this. And your initial kind of planning you're going to go, oh, I really love doing six by a mile. Let's do that every week. I hate doing hills. Let's never run them. But you know, I had to write it as if I was writing it for somebody else. So I was like, you know, this is the stuff that you need. And I would look at the pumps of my race and my training. I'm like, you know, I am crap at hills and that's why I don't like them. So I need to do them in training so I can get better and get stronger. And yeah, you just had to kind of switch off that it was you that you were coaching. But it's quite funny when like you say athletes go, oh, I'm just asking me coach about that and I'd be like 2 seconds, so will I. So then have a conversation with myself. But yeah, it's worked out. So, you know, is there any other.

Advice that you'd give people that are self coached other than the bits that you just said which sounds, you know, sound very, very sensible. Is there any other advice you'd give.

People just to keep honest with yourself? You know, that's the big thing. You've got to be honest and truthful with yourself. If you have got somebody that can kind of, you know, be a second pair of eyes or second pair of ears, that's great. But it's just a case of, you know, don't just do everything that you like doing because they're probably things that you're already good at doing anyway. So, you know, you need to work on your weaknesses and yeah, just kind of look at yourself as an external person sort of thing, you know, because I do some coaching anyway and I have a sports science background so I knew all the principles and that. But putting it into yourself, it is quite difficult. But it also allows you, you know, it allowed me as a coach to do experiments in training sort of thing. So I can now pass that on to the athletes that I coach. It'll take thankfully most of the stuff that I did, you know, I did get some things wrong. I'm not perfect and I never will be and I never claimed to Be an expert. But I did find the formula that worked for me. And, you know, I made some mistakes along the way, but I managed to turn them around and rectify them.

What did you. Did you pick up anything? So you spent some time in Kenya running and training. Did you take anything different? You know, because obviously there's a. There's a huge sort of the Kenyan runners and the way they train and things like that. Was there anything you picked up there or was it more. You were still kind of in a British environment?

Yeah, we were still in a Western environment. So the camp that we stay, you know, in the kind of a few years back, it used to be a lot of Brits, not just British athletics, kind of just, you know, Brits that have paid to go over there. And you can all stay in the same camp. And then you'd have a few Canadians, you'd get like, pretty much all nationalities from across Europe, Canada, America. So you did watch them, you know, like, Desi Linden was in there one year, so you watched her and picked things up on her. And it's more kind of not the actual training that you're picking up on, because mostly the training, you know, it's not rocket science. Mostly everybody's training is the same. It's the bits in between the recovery and the chilling out and, you know, lying on your bed doing nothing apart from reading, which that's not what we're very good at as Brits because we're used to being so kind of active in that. And like, the youngsters kind of under 20s or the early seniors, they were getting driven crazy because they had nothing to do. They're like, like, I've got no Internet, I've got no PlayStation. So after a few camps, they'd start taking like the One TVs and PlayStations and that. But then, like, you know, you had the other guys, they're going, what you doing? You know, instead of having an afternoon nap, you're playing on your PlayStation, you're staying up until like midnight playing on your PlayStation when you should be asleep. So, you know, it did keep them entertained, but also, you know, kind of learnt them the lessons of how to be that all land athlete. So that was the big thing that I took from the camps in terms of the Kenyan stuff. I'm always fascinated. I used to love going down to the track and watch them. You know, they're on a dirt track and there's just everything in there from Olympic champions, world record holders to, you know, kind of British guys that have just paid their own way over there and there might be like a five hour master, but they're all training on that same track and giving out each other the same respect. So I used to love watching that. But when I hear people say like, you need to run really, really slow. It's what the Kenyans do and that kind of thing, I'm like, but the big thing is we're not Kenyan. You know, I'd rather look at what some of the Europeans or, you know, people that live at sea level do because it's a lot more relevant. You know, we don't live at 7,8000 foot, so they might be running 9 minute Milan because they're at that altitude, whereas if they come down to sea level, you know, that might increase by a minute. And you know, they've got different genetic makeup because of where they live and how they've been brought up. You know, they've been brought up very active. A lot of the kids that go to school, they'll walk or run like three mile around here. You know, they get a lift to school and it's only 400 meter down the street. So we've had a completely different upbringing. So, you know, doing it the Kenyan way isn't necessarily going to work for us.

Well, I like, sorry, Charlie, I like what you said. Like you came from your dad, so you in theory hopefully have the same DNA and genetics as him. And what worked for him is, yeah.

I'm not going to bring up like kipchoge and go, what works for you? I hope that works for me because he's got a lot of connection to me.

That's really interesting. So when I interviewed Shane Benzi, he spent a bit of time talking about the fact that he was out in I think Ethiopia rather than Kenya, maybe both talking a lot about the technique. Do you think the same applies to the running technique or did you pick up anything from the running technique of like the Kenyans?

I would love to look as flowing and graceful as a Kenyan, but if you've ever seen me run, you know, I'm the complete opposite. But yeah, I think they do a lot of not necessarily kind of technique work the way we see it, but they do a lot of what they call gymnastics. I've been to Ethiopia as well and actually stayed with the Ethiopians with Getawami's camp and yeah, whereas we spend a lot of time in the gym getting strong. They use their natural environment to get strong. So in E10, where most of them stay, it's incredibly hilly, the terrain is really, really rocky. So they have really strong ankles, really strong feet, whereas we don't. And yeah, kind of. It's very rare to see them in the weights with like, you know, weight room doing squats or deadlifts or anything. Whereas we put a lot of emphasis on that. And again, it goes back to a lot of them, the live and work on farms in between. So they're getting that manual strength. But yeah, they'll do a lot of what they call gymnastics, which we'd probably call drills. And they're just all. It's great to see, it's fascinating. They're all just in like normally two lines and they're just dancing up and down. There's loads of like images of it on the Internet if you want to look it up. And yeah, it's just kind of dynamic stretching and drills, what we would call. And they work on that. Whereas over here it tends to be just like the top, top guys. I Look at that 1% of technique and everything.

That's fascinating. And when you say about the fact that in between their runs, you know, they tend to be out on the farm, you know, that reminds me of Nikki Spinks, who does exactly that. And then, yeah. So kind of strength workouts don't have to be necessarily in the gym, do they?

No, no. Like obviously being in a gym and getting to a gym, it's costly and it's time consuming, but you can literally do a 10 minute workout around the house with stuff that you've got in the house and get the same thing or, you know, you can add in hills to build up the leg strength. You don't get as much of an impact on it, but, you know, doing a weekly hill session will give you strength gains just the same as squats and everything. And when it comes to the gym, it is kind of, you know, that is a little bit harder to actually set stuff because obviously people have different movement patterns and need different muscles looking at. For me, kind of, you know, I don't use my quads the way I'm meant to. So we put a little bit more emphasis on trying to build the quads up and get them recruiting. You hear a lot of people saying, my glutes don't fire or my glutes don't activate. So they've got to look at that sort of thing and then that will affect like the V achieved, the hamstrings and the calves. But, you know, simple things like calf raises, which will really, for most people, increase the strength of their legs and prevent injury. You can do them when you're brushing your teeth twice a day so you don't have to be going into the gym.

Well, that sounds like great advice. You mentioned running clubs already and I know when I've listened to other podcasts that you've been interviewed on running clubs. Running clubs have been a big thing for you, haven't they? Tell me, I love the fact that you used, I heard you use the term that it's a drinking club with a running problem. I thought, that's fantastic. I like the sound of that running club. But having gone to Newcastle University, I kind of get the. From being in the northeast, I get the impression of what that's like. But yeah, talk to me about the importance of running club and how they've influenced you.

Yeah, I'm a club runner at heart. Like, you know, the last few years, like you say, I've done a lot of podcasts, I've done a lot of talks and most people I've run at international level and kind of to the level I have, they've came through the junior ranks, they've gotten like the first England GB vests, kind of late teens, early 20s sort of thing. So they've known like the international scene a lot more than what they've known a club scene. Whereas for me, I was 29, I think, when I got my first England vest, 30 when I got my first GB fest. And, you know, I'd spent 20 years as a club athlete and then moved into the international scene. You know, I've been lucky enough for the last 11, 12 years to be an international, but now I've gone back to that club scene. And, you know, I describe myself as a club athlete who's been very lucky and grabbed at the opportunity that's came along to become an international athlete. But for me, we've got a really, really good club scene up on the north east and North East London community is amazing. And, you know, I try to be out there doing as many of the north east races as I can. I'll always wear my club vest. I won't rock up in my sponsor vest. I don't actually have a sponsor anymore. But, you know, previous four years, I wouldn't rock up in my Nike kit. I'd have my club vest. I might have Nike take on my club best, but it is my club best, the same as, you know, the rest of the guys. And we are more of a social club at the strollers. So you can have me at a local 10K, rocking up, doing 33 minutes and, you know, one of our other women might be doing 63 minutes, but we're there representing the same club, wearing the same kit, you know, one team. And I think for most of them, it does mean a lot as well that I've kept my roots and, you know, I haven't kind of got too big for my boots and whatever, because, like, going back to what I said before about kind of putting Olympians on a pedestal, most of the guys around here that I train with and race against for years and years and years, they seemed no different to what I was, you know, six, seven years ago without having those five rings tattooed on my stomach. So, you know, for them, it's just kind of, yeah, Sally sort of thing. So, you know. But then, like Laura Waitman, who's also from the Northeast, she comes and does a raise and they're like, oh, my God, there's an Olympian. And I'm like, like, hello. But again, I think it's just because, you know, I tried to make myself as kind of available and open to people. You know, I don't try to make myself any different to anybody else if I'm on that start line. You know, I give everybody the same respect, no matter who they are, what they've done.

And are you now involved in coaching people within that running club?

Yeah, the kind of. My club's not the best for kind of coach and setup. You know, there is a coach there and they do, you know, a good standard of coaching and training, but in terms of the type of coaching that I like to do, where I'm literally taking somebody and saying, this is what you're going to do this week. And, you know, it's all kind of progressive towards a target. It's a lot more kind of ad hoc, one size fits all at the club and trying to get them to kind of, you know, say, I'm going to dedicate the next six to 12 weeks to training for X event, you know, and I'm going to follow everything you say. It's quite hard because I said they do like to enjoy your drink and be sociable and that. And whilst running is important in their life, it's not the be all and end all. So, you know, they look at me and they've got, we really need to be dedicated if we're getting coached by her. But I give them a lot of help and advice. You know, I'll say the sessions that getting put out on our group Facebook page and that, and if I'm thinking, you know, that's too Much for these guys. I'll say, how about changing it to this? And I'll go down the track, you know, and I'll help out, kind of, you know, give them some tips. Just explain to them one single file running lane one. Because if you run in lane two, you run in seven meters extra. And like, you know, a lot of them didn't even know that. I had to literally say to them when we first came down a track is 400 meters, four times as roughly a mile. You know, they were doing the good old Garmin. Oh, my garment says after the man. No, you still got 50 meters to go.

The finish line is not halfway down.

And then I put my garments here. They're like, turn your garment off.

Yeah.

And you know, it's just kind of. They're not used to being on a track and a lot of them are scared to go on the track because they think that they've got to be fast or they've got to be elite. So if I go down to our like D or E group in the same way, standing there with a stopwatch, the Autumn man and my mom, because they're like, I can't be training with her. And I'm like, I'm not going to be running behind you with like, you know, a frying pan hitting you if you're not fast enough. I'm not. Run, fat boy, run. But yeah, most of them do appreciate the input and you know, when I did make a degree on that, you know, they were really, really proud and you know, but just the whole city in a whole tended to be really proud and they did a lot to celebrate it. They had a run to Rio kind of event where they raised a lot of money on the day of my race because of the time difference. It was in the afternoon, my race. So they had this big like challenge run where they all got dressed up in like kind of Brazilian or Olympic themed. And then they were all running around like Sunderland looking for something that's got veo in the title or a coconut or, you know, getting random people to spell out al with themselves. You know, it did bring a lot of attention and you know, the club were very, very excited to be able to say that they've got an Olympian.

So I'm sensing there's a bit of a dress up theme going on in, in your life or in the running club, because I think you are you still world record holder for half marathon dressed as a superhero.

Yeah, thankfully that one hasn't been beaten yet. 50k got taken down when I saw was doing that, I was like, just please don't run a half marathon dressed as a superhero. So, yeah, that was kind of. I'm ambassador for the local hospice, Saint Benedict's. We've got a really strong family connection with the hospice. They looked after my cousin, who was only 24, 25 when he died. They looked after my granda, who passed away a few months before I made her Rio. And then literally just not two years ago now, they looked after my uncle as he died. So, yeah, that said to them, I'll run the Great North Run. But obviously, you know, I can't go around asking people for sponsorship for an and a half marathon. It's something that I do every day. So I thought, I'm going to have to have some sort of gimmick here. And I'd always wound Paula up when she was doing our last ever London Marathon in 2015, saying, you should run in a Wonder Woman outfit, you know, get another world record as your final one. And she's like, no, no, no, I'm not doing that. Don't be daft. So I said to her, I was like, you know, I'm going to take it on instead. I'll do the half marathon. And she was like, yeah, you're crazy enough to do that. So I did actually kind of take a lot of traction raised. I think it was about 5,000 pound by doing it. And, you know, the Great Run, I know a lot of the guys there, they picked up on it. They kind of put it into their media press releases and that the BBC picked up on it, interviewed us before, and then Gabby interviewed us after. And like, I'd grabbed a beer about 11 mile, but I'd spilled it all down. I wasn't like, she sounded close to. I was like, yeah, spilled beer downers.

So not only did you. You were dressed as a superhero, you got the world record for the half marathon and you had a beer halfway or near the end?

Well, I attempted to have a beer because, like, yeah, it was in, like a plastic cup and I just grabbed it off somebody in the car and I was drinking. It was like going everywhere.

I was envisioning you sort of taking the cap off with your teeth while dressed as one.

No, somebody handed it to us. There's like, at about 11 mile in the Great North Run, there's a beer station and like the Hampshire.

Anything less from that area of the country.

I hear so many amazing things about the Great North Run and became because of my time in the Northeast, I'm desperate To get up and do it at some point. What makes it such a. Other than the beer at 11 miles, which is the first time I've heard.

That when you're in the elites, you can't grab a beer at 11 miles. But no, it is a really special event. You know, there's a lot of the club runners don't like it because it's so expensive to enter and it gets busy and you know, you can't do proper warm ups and all that sort of thing. But if you look at it what it is, you know, take away the elite fail, take away the Mo Farahs and Mary Kattani's up the front, you've got 50,000 ordinary people out there. You know, they can all say they've raised Mo Farah and you know, what other sport can you say? You've raced Four time Olympic champion, you know, you're never going to be able to say I've played against Lionel Messi or Ronaldo or anything. So, you know, we have that unique thing in the sport to start with. But, but for the great north one, you've got 50,000 ordinary people and they're just doing, for some of them, which is seen as something totally extraordinary. You know, they might have overcome illness, they might have lost somebody to illness. You know, they might be doing it because, I don't know, they've lost a load of weight. But they all have their own individual stories. You know, even myself that day I had the story. I was doing it for the hospice and memory of like the family members and yeah, just it's an emotional event and it's a big party and everybody's in there, you're all going through the same stuff and the crowds are just fantastic as well. You know, the Northeast, they love the Great North Run and they line the streets and you know, they're just, yeah, it's just a really, really good event. And for me, I've also got the added bit. Back in 2014, after I had to stop at the Commonwealth Games, I went into like pretty dark place with it because to me, because I got injured and had to stop, I'd literally let everybody down. You know, I was running for England, I'd let everybody, viewers, friends, family down by not finishing. So I decided I didn't want to run ever again. Threw my shoes away and, you know, I swore that was it. I'm not running again. I was working in sweatshop at the time. So I was going into work and they had people coming in and they'd start chatting and that. And I'd say, oh, do you do any run? I'm like, oh, I used to do a bit, but not anymore. But some of the lads managed to persuade us to do the Great North Run. And, you know, I went along, not ran for like six weeks having, you know, said that I was retired and never doing it again. And I just absolutely loved it because. Because it reminded us why I started running and why I loved running so much. And, you know, it's not about being up the front, seeing how fast you can be, making teams, winning medals or anything. It's about just being in there, enjoying it and just, you know, appreciating that you can put one foot in front of the other and cover 13 miles without thinking about it. You know, a lot of them were thinking about it because it was hard. But yeah, I finished that day with a massive smile on my face and totally fell back in love with running. So the Great North Run does have a very special place in my. And yeah, it is just a great event.

Fantastic. Well, it sounds like we're going to have to get up there and do it at some point.

And if Brendan's listening to that, he was a Satana.

We'll make sure we forward it.

Yeah, that's a great advertisement. It is.

We'll even put that in the snippet right at the start. You haven't ever done it, Sid, have you?

No, it's. When I was living in the UK, I was very much like track running, so 400 and 800, so like the thought of doing half an hour run was long distance for me. So I hadn't really got into like London Marathon had always been a bucket or is still a bucket list race for me at some point and. But I've always loved the North Run and how they've grown the event and now just like that mass, you know, and I hope, hope when we can get back to those days of racing, that mass participation and like you said, Ali, it's just like anyone doing it from any level and it's. Yeah, it's such a good buzz and I'm definitely tied in with the beer at mile 11 now.

We'Re there.

There's a beer tent at the end as well.

Done.

Definitely done. Nailed it. So other than the Great North Run, are there any other races that you particularly highlight as being your favourites?

Yeah, we have one up here called the Blade and Race and again, it's like about 3,000 people every year. It's always on the 9th of June because of the song The Blade and races was on the 9th of June. You've got to have a Northeast connection to understand that.

I know, I know that they sing.

That or be a Newcastle fan, but yeah, Blade and Races, it was one of my very first road races that I did like a 16 year old and I won the under 20s that first year. And you know, we used to get Kenyans and that coming across because it was decent prize money. But, you know, it is a really, really big. Got good kind of history in the Northeast. And I kept on going back and going back and going back and it took me, I think it was 18 attempts over 21 years to finally win it. And I finally won in. I think it was 20, yeah, 2015. I finally won. And you know, that to me, you know, I hadn't at that time like made an Olympics or anything, but that was to me was winning the Olympics, finally winning Blade and, and it sounds daft to people who don't really understand the race, but it's like, you know, it was one of my very, very first ones all those years ago. I came back and I've came back and I've never ever getting it right. Or there'd be sometimes when I did get it right, I went brilliant. But there was always somebody that beat us. And then to eventually get there after all those years and get my name on the trophy, it was, yeah, it was kind of my really kind of special moment. And it was also the last race that my granddad actually came to watch us before he got ill. And I went on to win it again the year after and then I won it for a third time. The last time it was won in 2019. And there's only one person, well, one female ever won it four times and that's Jill Hunter, who if I go back again to like my childhood, she was, she ran in the Barcelona Olympic Games, Great Britain in the 10,000. And she was one that kind of. I watched her run and it was that kind of if she can do it, she's from Newcastle, she trains with my dad. She's just like me, why can't I? So to try and like, you know, get up there on almost par with Jill, who I'd looked at as, you know, I had posters about my bedroom wall as a kid. You know, be up there with your heroes. You know, I would love to go back and do it, win it for the fourth time to tie that record. But I don't think that's going to happen now because it's been cancelled this year. Because of everything that's going on and you know, next year I don't think I'd be able to run fast enough. And you, the youngsters are now going to be catching up hopefully.

I mean you say that and there was an interesting you said about kind of dealing with or getting older and then managing that expectations of where the pace and stuff is. I mean what then took you to doing the ultra running and going and.

Yeah, it's something I've had an eye on for a few years, the 50k and I don't know why but I'd looked up the British 50k record and it was like 3 hours 16 I think and I was like, you know, without sounding big headed I was like I can do that, you know, hopefully quite easily. And it was in 2017 after I'd done the World championships in London. By that point I'd pretty much ticked all the boxes of everything I'd want to do at, you know, been to Europeans, been to Worlds, been to Commonwealth, been Olympics. And I was like what else is there that's now going to keep us kind of excited enough to kick us out of bed and get out to train? So yeah, I spoke to Neil Black who was the performance director at the time and he said Samuel, what you going for now? Because most people are towards my age were kind of saying well, well you know we're retiring now because start of a new cycle. I was like oh no, I'm not going to retire, I still want to go you know, Commonwealth next year. I says and then I'm even looking at possibly the 50k. I think I'm with the British record. And he's like all right. And he knew us quite well. He treaded, he's been on camps and that because he used to be a physio as well obviously he's like okay, the next World champs if you're up for it, you know, we'll look at sending a team if you think that's kind of something you want to look at. And then I thought nothing else of it, you know, it was like another two years until this champs came around. And like I say I went off to Commonwealth Games and did Boston and that and then I saw the selection policy had been released and I was like yeah, I think I'm going to put my name in, you know, in the hat for this. It's just something different. Instead of like, you know, going to Berlin or Chicago and going through the same training and comparing everything, getting a bit down that year, you're not as fast as you used to. And I was like, it's a new challenge, let's put it in. So emailed the selector and said, you know, this is my cv, I'd like to be considered. And he came back. He's former ultra, out and out, ultra backward and he's like, thanks for your application, we'll definitely consider you. But just a little note, not all good marathon runners make good ultra runners.

Is that like fuel to the flood?

So am I in the team or not? Yeah, I got a phone call a few weeks later to say, yeah, I'd been selected and it was quite in British terms, you know, I haven't really had anybody, you know, again, don't want to sound big head of my caliber go into that. It's always been kind of the proper ultras. So the good thing was I went into it with no expectations and pretty much under the radar because nobody in the ultra world had heard of it. So did all my training, went off to font and more to train. I ended up getting in really, really good shape and I've got a 10 mile tempo route that I use over there. I always do it kind of two weeks before my marathon. Got in most of my build ups there and I did it and I was like, that's pretty damn close to PB form. And I didn't want to look up the times to compare because I knew I was in good shape and I was like, I'm not looking but that's pretty damn close. And after the race I did look it up and I was only two seconds slower. So I actually came back and said to my partner then I was like, I'm not doing the 50k. And he's like, what? I'm not doing the 50k. He's like, you're in really, really good shape. Why are you not doing this 50k which is in like two weeks, I'm going to do Berlin. I think I can still run a pb, get the qualifying time for next year and go to another Olympics. And he's like, no, do the 50k. If you recover well, you've still got four weeks you can possibly go and do that. So anyway, I decided, yes, I'm going to stay with the 50K because you know, there's no pressure, it's something new. And also everything was booked. So I went over there and like I said, under the radar. They'd done the press conference with like the three favorites sort of thing. I was never mentioned in anything and yeah, just went out and ran, took it on the first mile I was actually in second because Helen, who was like my teammate who ended up second, she kind of went a bit crazy and the first man ran really fast. I was like, helen, do you realize how fast you're running? This is like 5:55. Pierce, let's ease off. And yeah, she did ease off from that and I just kept on going and I was always really conscious about that last 8k because obviously I'd raced up to 42k and never raced beyond that. I trained up to 30 miles. But there's a big difference between training and racing. So yeah, I just kind of like kept it controlled and the men and the women running at the same time. And it was again, it was a lapped course. So like we were going up one side, the men were coming down and I was shouting over like, go on Paul, you're looking great, keep going, you're looking strong. And after the race they were on like, how did you be able to like shout so much at us when like they were just grunting as we play sort of thing. And that was my way of judging my effort. So I knew that I was running comfortably within myself and you know, I was going to get to the finish. And then on the last lap we went around the top bend where the feed station was and I had about a two minute lead at that point and the team manager shouted at us, you got to smash the world record. And I came around like the U turn and I looked back and I was like, what is the world record? I didn't even know what it was, what I was on for or anything. And yeah, I just pretty much legged it down that last 4.5k. Finished off with like a 5:37 last mile. So it was kind of still strong running at the end and yeah, crossed the finish line and they were all like jumping all over. You've broken a 31 year old world record. And I was like, this is where I feel really bad because I don't know anything about ultra running. I don't know what the world record is, who held it, you know. You know, I've looked her up since and she was a really, really good, very famous ultra runner. But because I was just new to it, I knew nothing about it. So I was like, you know, I'm really, really happy, but I also feel a bit of an imposter just coming in and you know, taking this. So, yeah, it was a pretty crazy day. You know, I had hope to win the race. That was my aim going into it. So to come away with the world record was an added bonus. And yeah, kind of. Desi obviously looked at it and thought, I can get that one, and went for it a few weeks back and got it.

But the thing that impressed me, I mean, one congratulations for when you did win the world championships and get that record. The thing that stood out for me when Des Linden ran a couple of weeks ago was actually the support that you gave her leading into the race. And I know you joked about it a minute ago saying, I please, Des, don't run a half marathon dressed as a superhero and that sort of thing, but the open support that you gave her into the event and then afterwards when she got that was pretty impressive. Now, whether you felt that internally when I can imagine, like someone taking your.

Record away, yeah, it was a bit of a wrench, but, you know, I always live by. And again, it's a cliche. Records are made to be broken. You know, it would have been great to hold on for that first 31 years, like first date beforehand. But for the sport to progress, which I want to see the sport progressing, you know, records have to be broken. And the big thing is, you know, I don't currently have world best written next to my name, but if you look in the record books, you know, I've still got European best and everything. And I'm still a mom on that timeline of progression. And I forever have 2019 world champion next to my name. That doesn't get taken away from me. So, you know, she's took nothing away from my performance. All I've done is given her a stepping stone to this sub three and as well, like, I've spoke to the guy who's in charge of the ultra running worldwide, and he wants to try and make the fight the 50k a bit more mainstream. And I said, like, you know, you've got to try and attract some more of the top marathon runners rather than kind of the ultra fail sort of thing. And to do that, I think they needed a bit of a challenge. And that's where Desi came in, because she looked at, you know, she's never got to look at the marathon world record. Let's go and crack that. She looked at that as something that was kind of achievable and she could get the hype built up around it. And she's done a lot for the ultra world by doing that. But my three or seven, you know, I'll be the first to put my hands up. Yes, it was a world best. You know, nobody had recorded faster than that ever before. But there's probably about 100 women out there, you know, there's probably like five British women out there that could go and run that time without like, you know, really bothering themselves. It wasn't a truly world class kind of time. Whereas now a sub 3 hour is more in line with like, you know, other world records. And I'm not trying to take anything away from myself or anything. You know, at the time I was the fastest person ever to have recorded it. But you know, I can look at it rationally and say, you know, this is a natural progression because then you had also the odd people going, wow, she took seven minutes off it. You know, I'm blaming the shoes and all that. And you know, I don't know if you saw the tweet, but I pointed out to somebody she's a 222 runner, I'm a 229 runner at our best. You know, that's seven minutes. She's took seven minutes off my time. You know, she probably should have actually taken eight because you extrapolated another half an hour, you know, so, you know, my performance is still actually better.

Yeah, well, I think so. I think like you said, it's a really, I love what you just said about how for sport to progress a record would need to be broken. The guts to. Like you said, I think you are giving yourself a disservice by putting down saying that there are a lot of other people that could have got that record. You, you had the guts.

Yeah, I was the one that put my head on the line.

And you've almost then given the others that first step to say, I keep.

On saying to the British girls in particular, you know, if you're running 231, 232 now, yes, it's very good time, but you're not going to make a team. You know, international standards now is 2:29:30. You know, so for next year's world championships and everything, if you're not running faster than that, you're not making a team. But those 231, 232 girls can go to a 50k and win it and become a world champion. And it hasn't got quite well, it hasn't got the same glamour as, you know, KJT or Dina Asher Smith Smith winning a world athletics championship, but they can still forever call theirself a world champion. And let's face it, you know, if I went to a 10k race in Sunderland tomorrow and asked people, you Know, what's the difference between my world champion title and Dinasha Smith? That go nothing, you know, yes, I didn't get the $50,000 for winning like she did, but, you know, they don't even know that. I did get portable phone charger though.

But the ultra running world is just growing and growing and growing, isn't it? Were you tempted to go back and do more or was that just.

No, like, you know, I did joke on about it and that as well, saying, you know, over and out. I've done a crash and grab, just, you know, ticked all the boxes. If I go back, I'm on for a hiding for nothing. You know, I can bow out now with 100% win record, but it is something I might look at because, you know, just things are changing as it goes, you know, So I change my mind pretty much every day about what I want to do in the future with my running. So, yeah, it might be something, you know, one day. I would love to go and do Comrades, but the thought of racing, you know, running hard for six, six and a half hours, it's like I can't quite get my head around that. So.

You wouldn't have to run that hard, though. For you, it'd be like a stroll in the park.

Now when you look at like, you know, you see the girls now, Gerda Stein, who holds the up record for Comrades, she just ran a 226 marathon. You know, Desi's talking about going into things like two oceans and convicts. At her best, she's a 222 marathon. And I do think, you know, when some of these marathon runners, especially the Kenyans, when they click on that the Comrades actually has good prize money. You know, they'll be there like a shot. But no, it is, it's getting bigger and it's getting more kind of screen time sort of thing. You know, we're getting some good names. Tom Evans, what's he called? John Kelly, that's currently doing the Pennine Way. So they are getting more and more coverage. And, you know, it's gone from the days as well where the marathon was the ultimate challenge. That's no longer, you know, there's guys in our club, they're all off over to the lakes. 1 and 50 miles and 100 miles. And it's like kind of, yeah, the marathon's nothing nowadays as a training run, you know, it's just. I don't know what it is with human nature. We're just kind of getting more extreme and, you know, it's the same. If you look in triathlon, the iron man's no longer. It's got to be like the hardest iron man gone. You know, I want to run up.

Everest and you've got to do 100, 100 days.

Yeah, yeah. It's like why can't people just change, you know, out of that?

I've always been fascinated when you do compare triathlon and the long distance to like a marathon runner. Like tell me when you were competing, how many marathons would you do a year as like key races as races.

Maximum of two.

Yeah.

There was sometimes where within a 12 month period you might end up doing three just because of like the way it's fallen, doing maybe like autumn marathon and then London as a trial and then a summer championship. So you might, you know, you could even if you did Berlin, London and then say a world or something, you could end up with three and nine months. Yeah, normally it's like two a year because you know, they take a lot of training and then they take a lot of recovery. So after every mouth and I have two weeks where I do nothing, I just slob out, eat crap, drink beer, get fat and yeah, just recover and enjoy life because I know in a few weeks time I'm going to start that cycle again where, you know, I'm running 120 mile a week and I'm sleeping more than my. What? I'm awake.

So it, because that always fascinates me. And there's a couple of commentators in, in triathlon who always say, yeah, look at the elite marathon runners. They run two, maybe three a year and here we are as a bunch of triathletes and we're probably doing five full distances a year or like just wanting to do more and more and more.

Like I followed your skipper and like, oh, don't apologize, he was like, you know, doing half this, then going across to America doing another half, go somewhere else in America doing another half, then coming back to Britain. I was going back to America to do a fall. I'm like, seriously guy.

And Joe probably does like the distance of the race like a week before in training anyway at race pace as well, bless him.

But like when you look at that, you know, I know a few guys, I do triathlon and that as well because a lot of it, I know they're still using up a lot of energy and they're using the muscles and that a lot of it is non weight bearing. You haven't got the impact of it. So yes, they're doing a marathon at the End. But you know, the 2.2 mile or whatever it is swim, you know, they're using the muscles and they're using energy, but they haven't got the pound and go through the body, which is a lot of what takes the recovery in the marathon.

Totally. I mean we could, I think we could swim and we could do the swim distances and ride the bike kind of every day and not have, have the impact. But it's that as soon as you've done that marathon at the end of it, that's the bit that, that puts the nail in the coffin, so to speak. Yeah, yeah.

I can't, I can't let you go without asking you about running books. I always ask everybody about books on this podcast, but I've heard you mention a couple and one that was when in one podcast you were, you were. I don't know whether you're writing a four word or something or being involved in it, but you didn't actually mention the book. So what have been the most kind of impactful running books for you do you find yourself recommending?

I've really enjoyed Charlie Spedden's.

I heard you mention that one before. Is that one From Last to First? Is that the right book?

Yes, yeah, yeah, it's something like that. But yeah, yeah, obviously Charlie's got the local connection. He's from up here and we were both coached. Well, he was kind of coached, but I was coached by Lindsay Dutton who was involved with both of us. So yeah, it was kind of, you know, I enjoyed it because I was reading it and I knew a lot of the people that he was talking about, but I also enjoyed it because, you know, we have a very similar approach to things, especially most people call it psychology, but like kind of just our mental approach. Whereas we'd be training for a race and you kind of, you build up races, might not go quite to plan but you know, you kind of put that in a parcel somewhere and put it on the shelf because you know that it's this focus race where everything is kind of, you know, focused on and that's the important one and you know that's going to go well. And yeah, we kind of had that good like kind of mentality where we couldn't sensibly just look at things and rationalize them, whereas a lot of people will just, oh, I'm having, well, oh my God, I'm never going to do this. That's it. I'm not doing my main race. And you're like, well, you know, you've got to have a bad race somewhere sort of thing, and you'd better have it there six weeks out than on the main race day. But, yeah, there was a lot of bits where I just liked kind of the stuff that he was saying. And, you know, I also like Charlie because you're quite happily, you know, have a pint and then go and race and whatever. So, you know, he's a runner's runner. He's not one of these kind of, you know, he won an Olympic medal, but it wasn't kind of like utter serious, you know, monk lifestyle sort of thing. So, yeah, that's a really good one. Fictional wise, I love Once a Runner and, you know, if you've never read that one, you know, it's. It's really good. Based in America and, like I said, fictional. Quentin Cassidy, he's at university. I'll try not to give too much of a way, but general gist is he's in university. He wants to break four minutes for the mile. So he basically takes himself off to a hut up by lake and just trains. Yeah, pretty much the life out of him. 40 by 400 run until he pees blood. Sleeping for 16 hours. And it's kind of like, you know, when I was in, like, Kenya and that, the first time I went, I was staying with the Kenyans and it was like, I'm doing a real life Quentin Cassidy here. You know, apart from the beard growing longer and longer by the day. You know, I was getting milk fresh from the cow, was getting water from the well. And, you know, I just saw myself in the book. So it is a good book just to kind of, you know, a. Romanticizes kind of the path that we're all on. Other one, running with the Buffaloes, where they follow Colorado State for a year. That one I've really, really enjoyed because we've got Boulder the year after. So we're like, let's go up to Marks and Run. Let's go to this cafe for the pancakes. And yeah, you just kind of like, try to follow the bits of the book, but it gives you, again, an insight into the team and the team mentality and the team training and all that kind of stuff. And then you look at, you know, one of the big lads in there was Dathan Ritzenheim. And, you know, you can follow his career all the way through to the Olympics and he's now coaching. So, yeah, that was a good one for, like, a real life kind of stuff. And, yeah, there's just. There's loads out there. I tend not to like as much much. Kind of the general autobiography ones and that. And like, you know, I've told myself, like, Paula's book. I was really excited for that to come out, but I wanted to know about training and everything, you know. But, you know, instead she's telling us, like, about our love life and how she proposed to Gary and all that kind of stuff. It's great for the general public, but I'm like, no, I want to know what it did for the 10 weeks before you won the world record. You know, I want every ounce of your training. But yeah, she kind of just skirts around that and just tells, like a general life story. So. But yeah, like, I do enjoy reading about what kind of other runners have done. You know, there's a lot of books that have been written, like Train Hard, Race Easy and all that kind of stuff. Running with Fire. And they'll talk to athletes and say, you know, give us again, it's just a snapshot because they'll say, give us your best session or, you know, give us a key workout and that. But just reading them and getting a bit of. Oh, that's another 26 marathons by MEB. That's a really good one.

Sorry, what was that one? I missed that one.

26 marathons by Mebke Flagesi. And he basically goes through. He's run 26 marathons, obviously, and he goes through each one and kind of, you know, he describes, this is what I did in the build up. This is my mindset. This is the outcome. This is what I learned from it. And as he ages, how he changes his training and changes his approach to it. And I read that when I was in Kenya at the beginning of last year. And it kind of, really, kind of, again, I was seeing myself as he was getting like, towards the 40. I was like, yeah, that's what I've done. As I've gotten towards the 40 and over it, you know, just scale it back. You add in a few extra easy days and rest days and, you know, again, it reassured us that, you know, what I was doing wasn't like, you know, it wasn't unique. It was what everybody was going through and what everybody was feeling. But, you know, at the end of it, he made an Olympic Games at 42. So it still gave me that I can do this.

Fantastic, amazing. I haven't read. I don't think I've read any of them, actually. So that's a whole load more for the reading list.

And I think the one that you were talking about that would have been limitless for Mimi Anderson.

Ah, right.

Yeah, yeah. So I got a advanced copy of it to read through so I could write just like, you know, the little bits that they put on the sleeve so I could do that.

Yeah, I've seen that. I saw that come out. But again, haven't read that yet. So that's another one.

Yeah, it's good. Apart from she's now really I just want to do like a hundred mile bike ride.

I can see a bike in the background.

Yeah, there's two in the background there.

Are you getting into your cycling?

I enjoy cycling, but I'm not good at it. So, you know, I don't like things I'm not good at.

Are we talking the relative goodness of scale that you're associating with your running calibre?

If you put us on zwift, I can be very good. There you go.

That's fine.

All.

That's all we've lived on for the past year.

But if you put this out on the roads, you know, like I said, I enjoy it, but I'm still a bit nervous and haven't really got the confidence to, you know, just go and blast it and see what I am capable of. But yeah, if I ever entered like, you know, a time trial or a race or anything, I'd be very, very bad. So. But it's just a kind of a standard weekend warrior, you know, I am, I'm not too bad and you know, as it's obvious with Marvin and I can just go and go and go. So I went out on it about two weeks ago now, I think was the last time I went out and I just did. I know it's not much, but I did like 40 miles straight off without thinking sort of thing, you know.

Seems pretty decent to me.

It's when I look at some of my friends who are like triathletes or cyclists and they're like, you know, they're doing all these massive rides and that, that and you know, a good five mile an hour faster than me and I might only be doing like 10 miles the same pace that they're doing 50. But then it's like what I always said to other runners, you know, don't compare.

Yeah, I know I was about to say that when I put my stuff.

On Strava and I put like easy seven and it's like 7:15 piers and the people easy. Really? I'm like, yeah, but it's all relative, you know.

Yeah.

When you're talking about your ultra pace I was thinking that. So to wrap things up, this has been absolutely fascinating. What are you most looking forward? What are you most excited about in the sort of year or two ahead?

It's hard because at the minute, we don't know what's happening, do we? You know, like, I would love to be able to do Chicago and because it's my only missing for my six star. And I'd be the only. Sorry, yeah. The second elite female to have a man all six, plus a world and Olympics at the minute. There's only Edna Kiplagat done that from the female. But Joan Barnoot and Dina Castor, they're all on five, the same as me. So I'm in a race with two pretty big names. But yes, I would love to be able to go off to Chicago this year and do that. You know, it's now a long, long shot for me to be able to get into Chicago as an elite athlete because, you know, I'm not running as fast as I can. I think I could possibly still pull off at 235. Whether that would be fast enough for them to say, yeah, come on over. I don't know. The only thing I'm hoping this year, with all majors being within six weeks of each other, plus the Olympics, like further six weeks beforehand, fields are going to be spread out a bit more. So there might be a bit more of a chance. But you're also looking with COVID restrictions, you know, they might say kind of domestically or something, so. But the good thing is with Chicago, I could literally see it not in America for my 50th birthday. Yeah, yeah. But, yeah, Chicago's one where I can put my name in the ballot any year and, you know, if I get it, I can go off and do it. It just means I've got to pay a lot of money to get there. But, yeah, other than that, I'm just looking forward to, you know, I've already made the decision to step back from kind of international, and I didn't really have to make the decision because, you know, the other girls would have faster and made that decision for us. I'm just no longer fast enough to make the team. So, yeah, I've stepped back from the international side of stuff. Just enjoy some more local stuff when they get up and running, you know, reconnect with the local scene and get stuck into some coaching. Yeah, I'd like to be able to kind of connect with the club and especially working with some youngsters, whether that's like, you know, young, youngsters where they're just doing like the try athletics or whatever it's called, standing, long jump and that sort of stuff, or whether it's kind of under 17s, under 20s and help guide them through. But, yeah, I'd like to give back because I've gotten a lot of pleasure and enjoyment out of the sport. So I'd like to try and guide others to do the same.

Fantastic. Brilliant. Well, it's been absolutely wonderful chatting to you. It's an amazing career in running and, yeah, I can't wait for you to. To get that six star because we'll be looking out for that.

I've got the gap on my wall waiting. Excellent.

Ali. It's been absolutely brilliant. Thank you so much for coming on and, yeah, best of luck with it going forward.

Thank you very much for having me. It's been a pleasure.

You can find out more about Ali alidixon.com her Instagram. She's Ali Dixon. That's a L Y, by the way. And same. She's also on Twitter, easily findable. And then I'll put a list to all those books that she mentioned in the show notes. So, Sid, what did you make of that chat with Ali?

Oh, I love chatting to Ali. She's so kind of. Of. Well, I don't know, there's like a humble, humble side to her. But then you can tell she's kind of got this confidence as well. Or perhaps she. I think she said she'd sort of learned from arrogance along the way at some times and it had taken her down a bit. But just I think the way that she's the community and the running groups and her strong. Her strong connection with that, the fact, I think, that she grew up with that running community and it wasn't till she was, I think, 29, 30, that she actually got her. Her first sort of vest or representative vest. And I think it just shows that you can keep going and you just. If you're loving it and you're running in your running club or your community or the triathlon, whatever it is, there is still that. That chance to chase that dream and then the success she's had after that, I just think, you know, brilliant. I think, you know, that other amazing. Listening to her finally sort of winning the Blade. Is it the Blade and run. I think she's like. It was that local race that had meant so much and she just kept coming second and second and second. And it was, I think, 18 attempts before she actually won. And so I think it's that never give Up. Yeah, never give up attitude that I really, really loved with Ali.

Yeah, I thought she was fantastic. I loved the. Yeah, I mean, obviously calling the podcast tribe Athlon. It should, it should be about the tribes and the people that you do this stuff with. And the running clubs have clearly been a big and still are a big thing for her. So I think that was brilliant. I also found it fascinating learning more about her being self coached and kind of how she goes about that and how she runs it, still runs it by other people and makes sure that she doesn't just do the sessions she likes and gets in the sessions that she doesn't like the hill reps and things like that.

So, yeah, very smart. I love the comment. I said, well, you know, if it worked for my dad and I figured his genes would be in me at some point, sort of thing, it must, it might, it probably would work for me. And there was that kind of. Yeah, very much family connection I loved, I think, I think, you know, you could see every now and again she's got a real dry or like fun sense of humor and that kind of came out at times and you could see like a bit of a cheekiness in her. And then we started talking about beer and stuff like that, which would have been quite good fun, I think. So. Yeah. And the fact that she dresses up as a superhuman. I mean, you don't do that if you haven't got a bit of character about you.

Absolutely. No, I think that I agree and I quite like the idea of turning up at their drinking club with a running problem because I think that sounds like a good way of enjoying an evening. And actually it's very much like the whole fell running at the community. I was listening back to my interview with Nikki Spinks and when she was sort of first getting into running with Fel in fell running and she was like, yeah, I'll do the race, but then we all go down the pub afterwards and have a few pints and a pie and it's like, yeah, that's absolutely brilliant. But it was also great to get a perspective on the Olympics, wasn't it? I mean, that did sound like amazing, amazing experience.

Yeah. I mean. Oh. I mean, I'm a sports nut, so anyone who's got Olympic stories and big championship sport stories, especially like from athletics is always, you know, I'm always all ears and it's very much listening. So, yeah, it was great. It was great. I thought she was a really good person to chat to.

Yeah, absolutely fantastic. Fascinating lady. And so, yeah, let's wind up for. For this podcast.

Yeah.

I'll just remind you that this podcast is brought to you by Precision Hydrated and if you use the discount code Tribeathlon15, you'll get 15% off your first order. And it's also really worth going on their website and doing the online sweat test so you can be a little bit more scientific about your hydration strategy. And so, yep, Sid, have a great week's training. And to everybody else, yep, keep on training. If you've enjoyed this Tribathlon podcast, please do go to Apple Podcasts and rate it and review it. It massively helps us to deliver a better podcast. It helps people find it as well. So, yeah, go to Apple Podcast, give us some feedback, give us a rating and a review and please share it with your friends because ultimately that's what allows us to keep delivering more and more of these podcasts. And don't forget to download the tribathlon app for more amazing podcasts, but also to help you train, compete, and to build your tribe.