The Aero Norseman with Allan Hovda

Foreign.

I'm charlie redding. And I'm laura siddall and this is the tribathlon podcast.

I approach it from a health first perspective. So actually my long term health, it's the most important thing. I do want to be able to do an ironman when I'm 80 years old.

That was Alan Hovda and this episode is the Aero Norseman. So while Sid is away racing and traveling around the world and doing all of the things she's best at, I am getting in some guest co hosts for the Tribeathlon podcast. And I'm really excited today for the previous guest of the podcast. Andy Blow from Precision Hydration is joining me as my co host and to help me interview Alan Hovda later on. So Andy, welcome back to the Tribathlon podcast and welcome as the first guest co host.

Thanks. Thanks, Charlie. I'm nervous because it's a big pair of shoes to fill, so. Yes.

But clearly we've, we've allowed Sid to go off and do what she does best and she did it incredibly well at the weekend because she was, she was second in Ironman Lanzarote and literally I was watching it on the athlete tracker going, you know, is this right? It's like one minute she's third, next minute she's fourth, next minute she's second and, and then it looked like she was going to reel in the win. But I mean, amazing race. I think she was 45 seconds.

Yeah, 47 seconds it said on the tracker and agonizing. Yeah, she needed another kilometer, didn't she? Or so she did. She did.

She was reeling her in. But yeah, but I mean that's her first long distance race for I think probably close to two years because you had the injury and then obviously we've had Covid. So that's brilliant. I'm really, really pleased to see, see that she was doing well. So what's been happening with you since we've, since we've had you on the podcast?

It's been busy, busy, busy at precision hydration. We've launched our fueling range, our precision fuel range properly. So that all went a bit mental, as these things do. We were, we, we sort of forecasted what we thought people were going to want and then we underestimated horribly. So there's been a big Scrabble obviously above the water. It's like a swan. You don't see all the legs kicking. It looks, it's been pretty manic. We've actually been keeping fit and keeping training ourselves in the office. We've got a funky little challenge coming up soon with Karen Dark, who's the Paralympic champion and adventurer, is doing this thing called Quest 79. And as part of it we are doing 79 hours of continuous exercise between everyone in the office. So like a non stop relay starting next Friday. So there's been a bit of planning for that and yeah, just generally keeping busy and judging the UK summer showers.

It has. I got down to Cornwall yesterday and it was like torrential downpour. In fact, actually I was racing on Sunday as well. The Holcomb Half. Outlaw Holcomb Half, which is a brilliant race. But we, yeah, the day before we had like monsoon conditions. Fortunately, on the day of the race it was, it was good. So the gels have gone well, have they? I mean, I have to say I mentioned it in the podcast before, I'm not, I don't get on well with a lot of gels, but I've got on really well with the PH gels. But they've gone down well, for want of a better phrase.

Yes, they have, they have. As we sort of said in the launch thing, they've gone fast off the shelves, like the athletes that we hope will use them. And it's caught us a little bit by surprise because whenever you launch a new product, we've got very used to dealing with, with our logistics around hydration and hydration tablets and packets and that sort of thing. And sort of gels are heavier and bulkier and we need more storage and we need to figure out the most efficient ways to ship them. But it's all, it's all kind of good, fun stuff. And the best thing is that, that people are using them. And also what's been really good is loads of people are using our quick carb calculator on the website, which is on the gels page, which sort of gives you some guidance on how many gels to use per hour based on what you're doing. Because that, that's always been a key feature of this project for us is actually, although the products are front and center in a lot of people's minds, it's a, it's a lot more to do with about, you know, how much, how much energy you can consume, how much you take in, what's appropriate for your level of intensity, the duration. And so that, that quick carb calculator is the tool that we've seen and we're tracking, you know, we, we get to see how many times people, how many, how many people each day, like clicking on that and Doing it and it's just the numbers are going up and we, we even had, I think we had at the last count like 52 different countries in the world people had clicked on it from. And I was like we were all trying to name 52 countries and we.

Came up well, sure, that's brilliant. I did it. I did the carb calculator and I think again, I think I've mentioned it on the podcast but yeah, really useful in the same way that the electrolyte calculator is. And they say you've kind of engineered this the opposite way around this time. Have you in that you'd you starting to get the people's data in through the online one. But you'd already got all of the data for athletes historically on the carb stuff beforehand, have you? So how are those two different types of data adding together? Are they making sense?

Yeah, so you're right, there's a lot with the carb calculator stuff there's a lot of really good published literature out there which we can draw on. So there's years of research into optimal carbohydrate dosing and whilst there are some there are definitely individual variances in it, it's not necessarily quite as wide a range or it's not as wide a range as it is for fluid and electrolyte stuff. So the carb calculator is based on that. But you're right, we're also gathering a lot of data from elite athletes and age group athletes. We're analyzing their pre and post race hydration and nutrition plans. We're doing, we're currently today, tomorrow we crunching the numbers on SIDS Ironman Lanzarote performance to get a sense of. Okay, well what does, what does a successful or in fact in many research, what does an unsuccessful outcome look like from a fueling and nutrition perspective? And that's then what. That's the kind of stuff we feed back into the calculators. And the game plan eventually is to have two things really on the website. One is a whole database of loads and loads of case studies of different athletes doing different events, what they ate and drank, breaking it down for people into very simple terms. So you can see reference points on what appeared to work in different weather conditions for different intensities. And then alongside it a kind of a combination of the carb calculator and the electrolyte, the hydration planner into an all in one system. So you can get a full outline of what a successful hydration and fueling plan would look like, for example, for an ironman in the heat or for a half ironman in the cold conditions or for an enduro mountain bike race or whatever it is you're doing.

Brilliant. And when I was chatting to.

Some.

Of the guys at Holcomb, half at the weekend and so do you, do you see yourself working more closely with a super sapiens or something like that to kind of understand the data even better?

I'm actually wearing a super sapiens glucose monitor right now for that very reason. So we have been having a lot of chats with people in that, in that world. The super sapiens people are, you know, fantastic. We have no formal association with them other than they're another bunch of people that are working in this space, you know, working on fueling with athletes. But I mean, I'm in the very early days at the moment. I've been wearing this for 14. This is coming up, this is my first sense that's coming up to the end of its cycle, which is 14 days. It's been like a massive schooling for me in terms of what different foods do to my blood sugar, what training sessions do to my blood sugar levels, how to relate what your blood sugar is doing to how you're feeling and how you're performing. And I'm not even going to pretend at this point to have any great expertise in it, but what it is doing, it's showing me that this stuff is going to be available very widely, very soon in terms of, you know, glucose monitoring is, is coming and it's going to be here to stay. So we definitely think that understanding it is going to be very useful from, from a health and a performance perspective. So that's, that's the next sort of 12 months project for me really personally is to, is to understand this in great detail.

Do you think there'll ever be a similar sort of piece of tech that will deal with electrolytes?

Yes, I do. There's already some patches coming to market which they don't give you real time data but they give you feedback immediately after a training session. We're working also talking to a company called Flow Bio in the UK who are in the very early stages of development of a real time wearable sweat sensor. There are other groups in the US that are doing similar stuff. So I think we will start to see even more data coming back from sweat in the future as well.

And I suppose that just, that's kind of a mobile version of your sweat testing, that you guys are doing it all the time anyway.

Brilliant.

And do you see any other developments in this space? I mean, so have you guys got any other products that you're thinking about launching or any other developments in this electrolyte or nutrition space?

Definitely. I think for us it's the next, the next most exciting things, these web based tools or app based tools. So taking some of this data, having the ability to take data from athletes and interpret it into a fueling plan or a hydration plan. So initially, if we're taking subjective sweat and fueling and intensity information into a fueling and hydration planner, that's the first stage. But beyond that I, I can see that in the future we'll be getting data in from devices or sensors on the skin or in a watch that are going to do the same thing, but actually with data rather than subjective inputs. So that's why. So we're looking at building some of those backend tools at the moment. Because what athletes ultimately want and need is we need an actionable version of a plan from all this data. Because I think one of the concerns about it is that more and more data is just not helpful. Brett Sutton actually put out a tweet the other day and he actually called out, he was calling it something about salt retention rates, but it was definitely a bit of a pop at the idea of sweat testing and hydration planning and even a little bit around power meters and other technology. He was basically saying you've got to do the basics and not worry about all this peripheral nif naf, which on the face of it is not, is not wrong. You know, it is about triathlon endurance sport is about the basics about knowing your body. But, but I think what, where it's misguided is that it's like data for data's sake is confusing and is not helpful. But if you can, if you can cut through the swathes of data, that's not helpful and get onto the data points and get them summarized in the right way to help you. I believe there's a huge advantage that technology can offer you as an athlete, both in health and performance terms. So that's where, that's where we're trying to go with it, is trying to take some of this data and make it actionable.

Yeah, I think you're absolutely right there because there is so much data, isn't there? But it's what you do with it and it's actually about boiling it down to two or three key metrics that you can use to improve going forward. You know there is, and I think that's A lot of the criticism I hear is, you know, there is all this data, but it's really, what do you do with it? And, you know, often us age groupers are keeping track of more data than. Or trying to look at more data than the pros are, and that just seems ridiculous. So I was chatting to Chris, founders of Incas Nova, on a run, where he was kind of showing me the gadget. And ultimately, it's about boiling the data back to usable information and actionable steps, isn't it?

Definitely.

And then.

And then we, the world sorts itself out as to what the things that add value in the long run have longevity. And those that were a bit of a fad or the information was a bit useless tend to fizzle out. They don't become successful. So I don't think the. I don't think the. I think there are people that do get swamped and confused and the data becomes detrimental to them, but that's not the data's fault. That's how you. That's how you're choosing to process it. You know, I remember when power meters first came out and no one knew how to really analyze power data. But gradually, over the years, power data has become incredibly useful for cyclists and triathletes. You know, it's like, really, really useful. There are people that probably, you know, don't. They probably look at their power meters too much, and there's probably people that don't look at their power meters enough. But if you use them, if you use them, you know, correctly, whatever that means, you know, then there's a huge amount of value there. You just got to be disciplined about it.

Yeah, yeah. And I'm. I'm somebody that's used gels kind of sparingly at times because I've just often found that they've caused me too many GI issues. I haven't found that with PH gels, but I still. Would you prefer to have bars on the bike? And normally I would. I would happily chomp my way through Valaforte bars because I really like them. But I do find on the last couple of triathlons I've done, I've struggled with them a bit just because they are quite chewy and so have you got any plans to kind of go beyond gels?

Yeah, we've got plans to build more fueling products. The next one on the horizon is like an energy chew, really, sort of like halfway between a gel and a bar. It's. And we're very excited about this because it's. By the prototypes are, hands down, the most popular products in the office. When the box of samples arrives, we have to sort of restrict access to them. So. So they're really tasty.

They're great.

They are that kind of. Because I know exactly what you mean. I'm, I'm actually okay with gels. You know, I use gels quite a lot, but there are a lot of people that find them a bit, you know, the texture is not. Not is not. Obviously they're not what you would choose to eat if you went to a restaurant or went out for a picnic. So whereas these chews are borderline, you know, my, my kids have nicked some of the samples and eaten them because they're as good as, like, sweets.

So I hope they weren't the caffeine ones.

No, definitely not. We've kept them away from sugar and.

Caffeine is not a good mix when it comes to children.

When it comes to seven year olds, no. So that's mega exciting. We're sort of, you know, in the throes of production with those, so I think people can look out for those in the coming weeks.

Brilliant. Excellent. Well, I look forward to seeing those go to market and yeah, Andy, great chatting to you. And let's dive into the interview with Alan Hovda. Alan Hovda is the three time winner of the infamous Norseman Extreme Triathlon, which is the incredible race where you jump off the boat, into the water, very cold water, and finish by climbing a mountain. And he's also the winner of the Swissman and many other races. So not only is he mastered racing in the cold, he's also mastered racing in the heat too, in places like Kona and Cozumel. So Andy Blow and I got the opportunity to chat to him about adapting to extreme temperatures, his fascination around aerodynamics, and also his love for the extreme triathlon races. I know you're going to love his enthusiasm and there is some brilliant advice woven into this episode with Alain Hovda. So, Alan, welcome to the Tribeathlon podcast. Thank you so much for joining Andy and I. I know there's going to be loads of brilliant stuff to talk to you about. Do you want to kick things off, though? So for those people that don't know that much about you, do you want to tell, tell them about how you got into triathlon, sort of your key successes along the route. Tell us, tell us your story of getting to where you are at the moment.

Yeah. First of all, thanks for letting me into the podcast. It's always great to have A chat with you and I listened a lot to your podcast previous to interview and it's a lot of great content. I really like the mark Vermont Ultra Cycling. That was very inspiring. But back to my story. I started with Triathlon in 2009. I was 20, 22 years at the time and I was a recreational kickboxer so I didn't have any endurance background whatsoever. But I don't know, I was a bit tired of getting hit in the head all the time. So I wanted a new challenge. And then I saw a video of Norseman and, and thought these guys are absolutely insane. I can never do do that. And then I had a colleague who has been supporting a friend who have done Norseman twice and he said yeah, you can, you can do it. It's not that difficult. So I don't know if it was right or not. But I, I, I signed up. So that was the last year you could just sign up when, when the entry released. So it wasn't a problem getting a spot if you just did it one minute after they opened the registration. And I just wanted to do the impossible physical task or the physical challenge. So it was like a one time thing for me to do. To do triathlon I have to learn like swimming and had to get the time trial bike and had to get a coach who trained me and had a lot of people doubting that I would even finish along the way. But I got to the start line and I finished in 14 hours something and three hours behind the winner. And I think it only took a couple of days before I realized it wasn't, it wasn't the end of the journey. It was, it was merely the start of the journey. And as a lot of people who had tried to are interested in Norseman know, it's, it's quite difficult to get a spot. And I wasn't able to get a spot for the following years either. So the only, my only option for forget securing a spot was to get an elite seating. So my goal after Norseman was, was to improve. And when I improved enough then I thought I would go for Ironman Hawaii as an age grouper. So that I managed in 2012 and again in 2015 or 14. And after that I got a pro license and by that time I came third in Norseman 2013. I won in 14, I won in 15, I DNF'd in 16, I had another second place in 17, a first place in 18 and another second place now in the last version in 2019. And I also done Swissman Extreme Priathlon twice, coming third one time and first second. And then I'd done Patagonmann once, coming second, so. And I also done Ironman a lot of Ironmans along the way as well. Or I've done a much, many more Ironmans than I've done Extreme Frightlands actually. Yeah. So like everything from Ironman Cozumel to Ironman Hawaii to Ironman Barcelona, I've been to five times, I think.

Fantastic. So. But you didn't sort of start things easy, did you? Didn't kind of do a sprint triathlon first and then maybe an Olympic one next and then a half Ironman. You jumped straight in at the Norseman to start with.

Yeah.

What was that like? How did you train for that first one? And how did you get to a point where you were confident enough that you were going to be able to complete it?

No, I think I'm born with an, with an. Of overconfidence. So. So like, it's what, whatever. Like when the interview with Mark Belmont and he was like, yeah, I was cycling four hours on four times. Four hours each day for 78 days. And I thought, like, I could do that. Like, I. But the logistic of it would be that would be like what I see as the biggest challenge, not the actual cycling. So I'm, I think I'm born with like the overconfidence of, yeah, I can, I can do it. But then I, I don't know if I actually was like, how do you know what you can do and not do? So it's, it's. I, I did, I did my best in preparations and I did a small sprint triathlon like a couple of months before and then I did a half distance, one and a half month before, something like that. So just to try it out. But I first signed up for Norseman and then I found what we should do in preparations along the way.

And what sort of window did you. So you had a year, I suppose. Did you. Because you just signed up.

Yeah, I think the registration is in October, so I had nine months.

Right. Okay. Okay.

That was. Yeah, it isn't, it isn't that much like my, my swim time, the first year was one hour and 20 minutes, so I wasn't able to swim, crawl at all when I started triathlon.

It's amazing how you've. You've kind of, well, jumped in at the depot or jumped in off the boat, I suppose is the, probably the better way of describing it. Andy, how did you end up meeting Alan and you know, how did you guys cross paths in the past?

Well, I've got a lot of Google alerts set up on my computer for words around sports drinks and hydration and stuff like that, because I suppose that's the sort of sad individual I am. I like reading all about that stuff. And Alan's blog popped up a few years ago when he. He'd written a pretty detailed blog about whether you should drink to a plan or drink to thirst in races. And he'd had a lot of success in Norseman. I'm not exactly sure which year it was, but it was a year when it was quite cool. Alan had won the race and he drunk quite a surprisingly small amount of fluid. And. And this coincided with, I think, him having read a book by Tim Notes called Waterlogged, which was all about over hydration in sport. And it was all about the fact that actually a lot of the time athletes over drink rather than under drink. So there was this discussion in the blog about, you know, drinking to thirst and how that, that, that worked for endurance events. And I kind of challenged that in something that I wrote by saying not that it was wrong, but that it didn't apply to all conditions, that maybe in the heat and longer races, in hotter races, when your sweat losses were high, you need to think more about your hydration and take a more organized and planned approach. And that basically, I think Alan got hold of that or somehow and it kind of stimulated a discussion between the two of us. So from a sort of slightly opposing viewpoints. And we ended up arranging to meet up when I was in Scandinavia, I think I was over there doing swim, run, race, and we met Alan at an airport somewhere. He flew in just for a couple of hours, met us at the airport, had a sweat test, and we found that actually his sweat, sweat sodium levels were really quite high. And kind of started to. Started to look at modifying his approach to hydration based on using some of our stronger products. And, you know, it appeared to be helpful in, in the heat. And we struck up a bit of a friendship and started chatting more. And Alan became an ambassador for precision hydration in that way.

Fantastic. And so, I mean, I've got to come back to this whole. Because you've listed some of those events like Kona and Cozumel, which would be hot races, but that doesn't strike me as the optimum place to be racing for somebody from Norway that's kind of. That's used to winning the Norseman. So we'll come back to that dealing with the heat thing. I Think. But the Norseman just strikes me as an incredible race. It's an iconic race that I would love to do. Some of my mates have done it, but I've never done it. One of the things that strikes me about that race is the cold and how you deal with the cold. So what are your strategies? So on the swim, I dare say it's a very cold swim on the bike. I know some of the races that you've done have been in extremely cold weather and then on the run as well. What, what are the strategies you use both in training and during the race to deal with the cold on each of those levels?

Yeah, we can, we can start with the swim and with this. I don't like to swim in. I don't like to be cold. We just start it up. But I'm not like, I don't masochist or like, I don't like to hurt myself.

You're not Wim Hof?

No, I'm not. I'm not Wim Hof. That's. That's correct. He's a fascinating guy as well, but I'm not quite there. And so. But I can go and swim in the sea when it's 5 degrees Celsius. And the reason I can do it is because I'm good at putting clothing on. So I have my wetsuit, obviously, but then I also have like neoprene balaclava over, over the head. And then I have like gloves and booties and like regular equipment for swimming or for open water swimming is usually not sufficient for, for like those conditions. So then you can go to the diving equipment. And underneath my wetsuit, I just put some layers of. It can be neoprene, like a neoprene vest or, or like a long sleeve for cycling just to get another layer of insulation. So I actually, I can swim in very cold water without actually being cold. So that helps a lot.

And do you find when you're swimming with gloves and booties or socks or whatever you want to call them, that that impacts your swim stroke and your efficiency through the water?

Yeah, I definitely swim slower with it. So I don't enjoy like, if I. If it's like maybe if in Norseman, if it's 10 degrees, like one was one year, then I was swimming with booties, I estimated I would loss about. Lose about 1 to 2 seconds per 100 meters for doing it. But you, you might have the risk of being completely numb in your. Your feet and which. Which could cause an issue when you, when you start. When you start the bike and the. Yeah, and you gloves. So you aren't allowed anyway. So you just have to be prepared to not have feeling in your fingers when you come out of the swim. Which. Which I noticed was a huge problem when I did Norseman solo as I wasn't able to put my cycling jersey on. I actually, I wasn't able to pull the sip on because I didn't have feeling in my fingers. But usually you have, in Norseman you have a support which, which can help you with that. So like this. And it, it helps to be a good swimmer as well because good swim offs, good swimmers are less or shorter time in the water and can usually maintain a higher intensity when you're swimming. So you're generating more heat as well. But so people who swim slower might be have to put more clothing on. And when it comes to the bike as well. I think the coldest we had in Norseman is 0 degrees actually when we passed the Haldang over the plateau. And that was 2015, the year I drank nearly nothing. It was like 1.3 liters until I started the run. So. And that year was when I had my best year as well. So that's, that's the reason why I drinking those. That works. But for me it really works when it's really cold so we can get more back to that later. So I wouldn't recommend that otherwise. But it's important to have enough clothing on you when you bike as well. And in Norseman that's similarly easy because you have your support team and you just should bring along enough clothing like preferably aerodynamic clothing which would keep you warm. Like I've been riding with winter gloves as well. In Osman you could see pictures me doing that, but it's like if I get the hypothermic then my performance plummets. You cannot perform well if you're really, really cold. So it's very important to protect the cold temperature. What about.

You mentioned I was going to come back. I was going to come back to transitions, but you mentioned that the transition can be difficult when you've got really cold hands. Is there anything that you've done other than getting your support cue to potentially help you? Is there anything you've done to help mitigate that cold in transition to get your fingers working more quickly or anything like that? No, you just have to accept it.

No, I try to or I do some drills with my support crew. Just. Or just we plan how, how we actually do the change, what they are putting on and what I am Putting on myself. So like I, I have like socks, I have like wider elastic wool socks which is short, which is easier to put on.

Ah, okay.

And I, I put them on myself because I can. But if I had like normal longer socks which, which had a tight fit, I, it wouldn't be impossible. And so I tried to, to, to optimize those things and, and the most important thing is actually to get going on the bike because like especially In Norseman it's 10k flat and then you just go uphill and then it's quite easy to regain the heat if you're, if you're pushing like race pace, like 300, right under 300 watts, what's in, in the upper Len then at least I, I gain my heat quite, quite fast. And it's also, we have to, you have to have a reflective west on you in the beginning. So I have that reflective west over my tricet underneath my wetsuit. But it's, it's, it's kind of a light, as light west as possible. So it isn't anything that retain water or prevent my movements in the swim. But I have it underneath the wetsuit so I don't have to use time to put it on when I'm up. Okay. In the swim.

Alan, I'm curious because I've swam in cold water quite a bit doing swim, run races and things like that. One of the best tips I ever got was about your breathing because when you, when you hit cold water, when you first jump into cold water, that the natural thing is to hold your breath and take really short shallow breaths.

Yeah.

And learning to put your face in the cold water and really do a massive exhalation has been always been the first thing that I try and do when I get in cold water. Have you got any, do you find it's useful on the breathing to have any techniques for people who might struggle with cold water?

Yeah, that's a good point. And I have a question how you do it in actually a swimmer and race when you go.

Yeah, I just want to try to do is make sure that rather than you see a lot of people jump in if and into a swim or into a swim start and the foot and they, they try and swim around with their head up for a little bit.

Yeah.

To try because it's unpleasant. I try to just get in, get my head straight in and do two or three where I put my face in. Big, big breath out to really empty your lungs and then a big breath in, a big breath out and I find that. That is probably the quickest way to acclimate your head to the cold water.

Yeah.

You only. It only feels like you're delaying the problem. If you sort of swim around with your head up for a while, you've got to kind of.

Yeah, no, I agree with that. And when I go. When I'm swimming in general, I never like, dive into it. I go into the water easy and put my head into it and try to just calm down. But then I. I don't know if. If it's just. I've done it so much that I. I don't get the, like, reflex with the need to breathe in. Yeah. But I don't know if you can train it away. But I don't seem to have it. But I try to ease into the water as calmly and, and relaxed as possible because when you, when you swim in, if you start swimming in 5 degrees, it's never pleasant in the beginning, regardless of clothing.

It strikes me, actually, it's not long ago that I read the Wim Hof book and essentially you could boil that down into two things. Well, three things, really. Mindset. But the other two are breathing, which is essentially what you've just quite similar to the exercises that he'll get you to do, similar to what you've just described, Andy. And then it's also the cold being good for you, but that also comes back to acclimatization. You swimming in Norway, Alan reminds me, I've had on my bucket list for a very, very long time to come to Norway to swim in the Norwegian fjords with killer whales. So do you find that you're, you know, are you pretty well adapted to the cold, do you think? And have you done anything to improve that? Do you embrace the cold water just to try and improve your adaption?

No, I don't actually think I'm well adapted to it because if I, If I don't put enough clothing on, I'm. I will be hypothermic. I, I like. I'm. I'm skinny, but. So I've been swimming. I just did it a couple of times this winter just to. To try it because all the poodles were closed and it was the only option I got. But then I was out in. In the pier where I swim, and there was a guy who. Coming there and he had just had neoprene shots and booties and socks and a cap, so he didn't have a wetsuit. And it was Snowing, it was minus 10 degrees. And he got into the water and before he got in water I was asking how long you plan to swim. It's like he was like half an hour and I was like that's not possible. But he got into the water and he was swimming back and forth actually in half an hour. And I wouldn't believe it if I didn't see it myself because it was just incredible how someone can do it. So he was just, he, he was well adapted. I'm not there at all. So I just put enough clothing on and then, then go for it and I don't actually freeze that much.

Interesting.

Yeah. So I would, I would, I would definitely go for the put more clothing on option compared to just, I don't know, mentally work your way through it. I, I don't know how like it is some races which is called like this where you swim in zero degrees water. You swim like one mile. And I think the winner for the, the world champion in that one he was finished with his one mile swim. He used less than 20 minutes or he goes fast. He had 33 degrees cold temperature. So that's quite extraordinary how you can be. He ended the swim doing butterfly. So how you were able to do butterflies with that cold temperature, that's quite amazing. But at least it shows that. Yeah, you may be not. Yeah, like Wim Hof, he can hit his body but I don't know how. Yeah. How much degree you can. Oh, I don't know.

I think, I think motivation is a huge. Like having the motivation to, to convince yourself you can do it is massive because I did it. I did the Red Bull Neptune steps a couple of times up in Glasgow which is basically in like I don't know, February or something. And it's in the canal in Glasgow and you swim up the canal and climb up rope ladders and it's an elimination heats thing each, each thing is 400 meters or so and you, you swim with like 20 or 30 other guys. The first eight go through and it keeps progressing through to a final. But one year we did it and literally there was ice in the water and stuff. It was absolutely freezing. But it, I've never felt like the stronger fight or flight adrenaline response is what you felt standing on that pontoon with that, with that many guys and it's elimination. You're going to beat the crap out of each other for the first is like 150 meter swim to start with to the first massive obstacle. The obstacles are really high. They've got this, this 01 degree water is like gushing down and pounding in your face. So you've got to hold onto the ropes and you don't. You really don't want to fall. And I tell you what, you. I'm not going to lie and say you don't feel the cold, but my goodness, you can't imagine doing it on your own. Whereas in that situation where all of your hormonal system is, like, turned on to deal with it, you just deal with it. Yeah, it's pretty intense. You feel like, massively invigorated afterwards.

So that sounds. I think that's incredible. I think that you're. I think you're right. What you put yourself through in the name of a race is very different, which is why doing a solo Norseman is. I mean, how did the solo Norseman just explain to people that don't know what that means and why you did it, how did that compare to racing Norseman?

Yeah, like most other races in 2020, it got canceled. So I contacted the Norseman organization or I know them quite well. So I asked it, can we. Can we do. Can we do anything together? So I wanted to do it alone. And they were quite keen to try that out because Norseman is a truly epic race in. In a lot of ways, like the scenery and the nature is spectacular. But the issue Norsemen have during a race is that you don't get the pictures. You don't get the pictures and video you want of how the race feels because you got like athletes and you got those support cars. So the, the pictures in that regards are polluted by the cars. And so they were quite interested to join along and do a movie about it and facilitate for it happening. So they did rent a real boat, not a ferry this time for only me. And we went to the starting place and I did the whole Northman course all alone. But of course, if you have someone filming you, you're not alone in. In that regard. So they did take my wetsuit and, and had my, my sneakers in transition, but I had had a backpack on me to, to have my, my, my fluid and nutrition along the way. So it's just for me, it was to have to have that experience of doing the Norseman course and be able to actually look at amazing scenery. Because when I'm in the race, I'm trying to keep my head as far down as possible for aerodynamic sake. So I don't enjoy the view. That's only fraction of a second. It's. I'm very focused on. On the task and then. And try to be like strong and aerodynamic. That's my mantra when I'm cycling.

And so how was psychologically, how was it doing it on your own as opposed to in the race?

It was much more lonely as, as you. As you don't have support or don't have spectac spectators at all. Then, then you, you really got like a lot of moments alone. So that was, that was really nice in the beginning and I was cycling up the Veering Fossen in the start, which is truly, truly epic. And I was hearing the sound of the birds. And now I thought like it has probably always been sounds of birds, but I never heard it before. So I like, I wasn't open to, to those kinds of inputs, but now I was. So that was, that was really nice. But yeah, at the end of the bike then it gets lonely and in the run it's quite, quite long. The run is quite long. It is just as long as every marathon. But you start with 25km flat and that's quite. Just one direction flat and that's quite monotonous. So that's. I really started missing my support as well. And it was really hot day. So it wasn't, it wasn't that. Yeah. Since I was carrying my own stuff, I didn't, I didn't get optimized the way I do in a race because in 2019 it was quite hot as well. But then I had my support guys that was running alongside me with a spray can which was spraying like mist all over me. So that was really nice. So I don't need to sweat that water and can maybe try to make me less dehydrated. But doing it alone was really something else. And it's not. When you come to the top of Gift Open, it's usually quite ecstatic and you meet your supporters and your family and everything else. But then you came on the top and it was absolutely nothing. So that was, that was quite, quite, quite different but. But also a really, a really nice experience and I, I hoped it would be just, just an easy trip just for, for fun. But five days prior to the race I, I did. I rode for 24 hours. In, in one day. So no. 24 hours like 889 kilometers for, for 24 hours as. So I was really fatigued when I started the race. I started Norseman Solo which, which made it much more physical demanding than I, than I, I wanted it to be. So that made it quite tough. And if I didn't make it to, to a certain cutoff, then I had to walk down the Mountain as the, as the inside elevator doesn't stop, doesn't go all the evening and did you make it? Yeah, I made it. I was really like, oh no, there's no way I can walk down the mountain again afterwards. So I really had to push to be certain that I would reach that cutoff time. But no. Yeah. I encourage everyone who wants to do Norseman and to go and watch the Norseman solo video. It's, it's quite nice. You get really impression.

It'S a great video. I would, I would say for sure it's like inspirational stuff, really good video.

And I think these whole extreme stream triathlons look incredible. You know I interviewed Flora College a while back on the podcast and they, and they do sound amazing events. Can you talk to us a little bit about the diff. You've obviously done plenty of traditional Ironmans and then the extreme triathlons. Talk to me about the difference between the two and, and which you prefer.

Yeah, well, like, like answer to most question. It depends. And in. When you say like an Ironman race it's very. How do you call it? They were very similar to each other. Like different, different courses are obviously different. Like Ironman Switzerland compared to Ironman Cozumel. It's, it's not, it's not identical but like they're so streamlined. So like the blue bag is the bike bag and the red is the run back. And so if you've done it a few times then it feels like you're. It's similar in a way. While the extreme triathlon races are more like, more unique in features like Norseman can't be compared to Swissman and Swissman can, can be compared to Patagon Man. They're truly, truly different races with their unique characters. But I think the big thing which I noticed when doing Osman Solo is that you do the extreme races with your support and you can do Ironman races with having your family watch you as well. But it's only minutes or seconds during a race where they actually cheer you on. And while in extreme triathlon you share the whole experience, they are with you along the way. And it's something about the shared experience which makes it truly, truly so much stronger emotional in that way. So like when I first won in 2014, I was running up the. It was really. The weather was bad, you couldn't see anything in the fog and I was running with my run support and the last 20 meters I met my wife and took her in the hands and we crossed the finish line together and like you cannot get that feeling in Ironman, so that's. I think that brings the experience to another level that you can do it with others. But then again, like I say, I do Ironman as well and I try to do those as best as possible. So when I'm in Ironman Barcelona, it's always about getting as good time as possible and try to push that performance limit as well. And I have the Norwegian Ironman course record, which is 8 hours and 13 minutes, which should be obviously sub 8 hours, but I'm working on it. But that is another journey, if you might call it that.

Brilliant. Yeah. And so of the races that you've done, which do you. I mean, I guess it might. The answer might be Norseman, but which is the one that stands out as the most kind of spectacular in your mind? And are there any that you haven't done yet that you. That are on the bucket list?

I can just like, I think 4,000 people are applying for one of the 250 slots at Norseman each year, which is sad in one way, but the most spectacular race is Lofoten Triathlon. And it's. And it's never been. It's never been fully signed. And that's a race. It's 4k swim, 196k bike ride and 45 run in really mountain passes. So it's like I use one hour more on the run in Lofoten Triathlon, Extreme triathlon than. Than the Norseman.

Wow.

So, yeah, that's proper hard.

And is that. Is that. Is that right in the north of Norway? Is that. Is that right?

Yeah, it's one of the most beautiful places in the world, actually. At least people. If you google Lofoten, then you. And there's the killer whales if you want to swim with those as well.

I'm seeing a plan hatching. It sounds fantastic. And so again, same format, but just a tougher race than Norseman. Slightly longer, actually, I should think, isn't it?

Yeah, no, the format isn't the same because you start because it's a mix of extreme and Ironman format because you start and have transition and go finish line in the same place. Okay, so it's. You finish in the center of the. Like you can air quote city as it has a couple of thousand inhabitants and you. You don't need support, which makes it easier as well. But like logistically. But the scenery is out of this world.

Okay.

So I've done it five times and it was so nice that we nearly bought like a small farm In Lofoten. Amazing. Yeah. It was like we just like to. I'm happy now because it's a bit far to travel to your farm but it was so nice. So that's something I would really check out if you're interested in those unique experiences and can't get a slot for Norseman. But yeah, of course Norseman is. Is truly special as well. Nature wise and like floor. What you call Flora, the. The female with the.

Oh yes.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I heard that podcast as well. And she's quite into Swiss Man.

Yes, she loves Swiss Man.

Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, then I enjoy Swissman as well and I think when I did Patagonia we were able to have a whole month in Patagonia. So we came there one week prior to the race, did the race and then we had three weeks to hike in like the whole of Patagonia. The pier is still pioneer and we were on the all the south tip of Chile as well. So it was the best, the most memorable trip we've done in our life. We had with our three year old son which is quite a good hiker. So that was like. I don't know when we can go to life philosophy. But like you only. Yeah. Life is short and you have to. I think you should try to make the most out of it and, and, and doing things. I think it's so sad when people are going to beautiful places to race and then they do the race and then they travel back without actually seeing the places. So we tried to. To do. Do races where it. It can be an experience more than the race as well.

Brilliant.

Yeah.

So sorry I. But are any races with that in mind that you think I, you know, I haven't done that yet but I really want to do that race.

Yeah, that one there. Yeah, I have something but I don't remember. Yeah, like Flora mentioned as well, the Himalaya Extreme Triathlon. It hasn't been. It was supposed to happen in 2020 and I had a meeting with the race organizer who was in Oslo, so that's going to be out of the world as well. But yeah, I also want to do some ultra trail running races as well. Also one in Lofoten, but also other places and I want to try like double Ironman or Triple Ironman and other stuff as well.

Amazing. That sounds brilliant. And so coming back to temperature then you've obviously done a lot of cold racing but you've also done some, some seriously hot races as well. What have you done to adapt to racing in the heat and how did that conversation with Andy that you originally had evolve when you started racing in hotter temperatures?

Yeah and it is quite funny because like the blog post I wrote like drinking thirst, it is correct in very special condition actually. So for most Triton it doesn't work. And I admit that it was wrong and it was based on like the Tim Noakes book which is generally is good but he isn't 100% at everything he says like the fact that you can adjust the level of salt in your sweat by being in the hot environment and eating less salt then then your body will adjust. That's just not true. Or it is true in extreme lab cases where you can isolate that but it wouldn't happen in, in, in real world. So that's, that was the issue as well because I was having great performances in cold weather but like just 20 plus degrees I was suffering. So that's when I was googling it about and came about my own blog. Andy's thought about my own blog post in the PH blog. And the Precision Hydration blog is like very comprehensive resource of everything related to to salt hydration and performance related stuff around hydration and nutrition and so so and doing the test with Andy like things fell together in sort of way that I need to up my salt intake. I did start to measure my sweat rate which was fairly high in hot conditions and close to zero in cold conditions. And then I had to do the like adjustments needed. If you're like when I live in, if I did it the other day the weather was maybe 15 degrees and clouded and overnight it turned out to just below 30 degrees and sun. So in a very short time span the temperature increased and that day I was going to have a hard day on the bike. So one hour at 250 watts, one hour at 270 watt and one hour at 300 watt watts. And when I come to the third hour I'm supposed to push harder. Then I completely cramped up like from everywhere from inside to my hands to my back and I was feeling horrible. So I just had to soft pedal home and like my maybe I was, I was probably under hydrated because my sensation of thirst wasn't upregulated compared to the temperature. But the most thing is like my body just wasn't adapted to that kind of heat change and I wasn't expecting it. So I was, I was really melting away in the sun. But just after a couple of days then it was all fine in the same temperature. It was, the sensation was completely different. So if you are going From a cold place to a warmer place. If you're doing like Ironman cosmetic in fall then trying to expose yourself for heat prior to race and you can go in a sauna if you have the possibility to do that. But, but you can also just do indoor riding with your fan off to expose yourself for the heat and give your body a chance to adapt.

Andy, how have you worked with Alan on this to kind of make sure his hydration strategies.

Right.

I think what it, it started out with just a lot of general conversations around the, the physiology and the, the sort of, the pros and cons of the sort of drink to thirst. Tim notes method and as Alan said it does work in some conditions but, but when we'd established that it, it wasn't maybe appropriate for the hotter races, it was then simulating the conditions in training sessions that Alan's gonna face in races and then working with him to you know, give him the tools to measure his sweat rate to actually understand okay, what does that, what does that mean? If we extrapolate that up over the course of an Ironman, how much fluid and salt we're going to lose, what's an appropriate percentage of replacement or what seems like a plausibly appropriate level of replacement. And then what Alan's been really good at is going out and repeatedly testing all of these, these little theories. Okay so we're going to try X amount of fluid and Y amount of sodium over this amount of time recording it, it, seeing how he felt and then iterating it like that. So we've been in Alan's case, I would say rather than directing it, we've been a sounding board for those kind of sense checking the numbers and then, and then trying to sort of go back and forth on adjusting them and what, what that means in different conditions. And you know, for example, I know that alan did a 80k 50 mile trail run recently in relatively cooler conditions. And we, we've actually started to now and we're doing this with a number of athletes entire nutrition and hydration intake for those conditions, that pace recording the outcome of the race and then, and then looking at sort of building up a database for individuals to say okay well in these conditions this appeared to work, this didn't appear to work in that one I think for instance Alan's fluid intake was, was pretty low, like 250 millilitres per hour. But it was, but it was relatively cold and cool conditions and we can't argue with the result because he won the race, you know, and appeared to Perform pretty well actually, despite some of the challenges that came across, kind of logistical challenges and things. So it's really about building up, it's building up a physical or a mental database with him or with any athlete as to what they're doing. Laura Siddal, you know, we're actually crunching the numbers from her very recent performance. Armand Lanzarote now, now, because. So Laura had put together her pre race fluid and fluid salt calories sort of plan. Went through it with Abby, one of our sports science team. And then we're sort of just getting those numbers back now after the race. Okay, how close did she get to hitting those numbers? And we know that she had a great performance. You know, very narrowly lost out on actually winning the race by only a few seconds in the entire Ironman. And, and I think that, that, that's the, that's the, that's the best way that we have at the moment in order to help athletes really get to the bottom of this. It's, it's not something which you can, you can't, you can't do a few lab tests or do it, do any sort of tests and figure out exactly what someone needs to eat and drink in, in the heat, in the cold or whatever. But there are kind of plausible, sensible parameters based on things like their, their power output, based on their sweat loss, based on their sodium levels in their sweat, getting those numbers roughly dialed in with them. And then it's, and then it's the evolution of, it's the, it's the survival of the fittest nutrition plan. You know, you kind of do one, then you tweak it and you see if it gets better or worse. And then you eventually. And as I keep saying, what Alan's been phenomenal at, which is what I don't always see with athletes is the ability to like dispassionately analyze these numbers, record them and iterate. Rather than putting a lot of emotion into it, trying something, if it doesn't work, throwing it out and trying something completely different. Because what happens then is you don't really learn what made the difference. There's a lot of confounding factors. You have to be relatively scientific about it. And I think that's to Alan's credit that he approaches a lot of aspects of his training and racing and preparation in that way. And all we've done really is like giving him the sort of the tools to do that in the hydration space.

And what about on the nutrition side of things, Alan? You know, firstly, how do you fuel A like a Ironman Barcelona race differently to the Norseman or an extreme triathlon. And also, are you using any of the tech that's starting to emerge, like super sapiens or anything like that to try and help you on your fueling strategy?

Yeah, that's a good question. When it comes to fueling differences between Norseman and Ironman Barcelona, they're. They're not different. Like my, like my goal on, on the bike is roughly like 350 calories an hour and on the run It's. It's about 270 calories on the hour each hour. So I, I do reduce my calorie intake on the run because it's. At least for now I cannot do more. So, yeah, that's similar. I just like when it comes to hydration, I use the ph drink mix when doing Norseman because then I have a crew who can mix it up along the races. But in Barcelona I use the ph tabs because I can just put it in the bottle along the way. So that's. But the difference is minor.

And what, and what do you actually eat? I mean, I remember Flora saying that she lives on chocolate for her extreme races, whereas that's not what I would expect from most people doing Ironman. So what do you tend to.

To.

To fuel on?

Yeah, I fuel on. On basically gels. So like on the bike I have two energy bars. Usually on the whole bike leg, I divide them into two and instead of like one shot of gel off, like if one gel is 120 calories, which is the pH gel. Instead of one gel, I take half an energy bar which is. That's 100 calories. Because I, Yeah, you, you definitely get tired of doing gels all day. So if I can, I try to do energy bars, but then again you have to find out some energy bust at work and because others just grow in your mouth and you have to. You. You just cannot get them down. So I have someone, I have some energy boss which, which just goes down. So that's. It isn't supposed to be pleasant. You just get it in and get it down and that's the same with, with everything else. Else as well. Hits so on. On the run, it's. It's only gel until maybe 10k left and, and then I go for Coke because I'm so tired of gel. So I tried to have like Cokes without. Without. What do you call it? The bubbles.

Yeah. Flat coke.

Yeah, yeah, I just have some flat coke to just push the. Yeah, the. Get the last squeeze out the last energy. So I just like, I have a plan. Like Andy said, it's, it's very important to have a plan of, of your goal and you should try that plan in advance then, then you should have like what, what is the metric for deviating from the plan? So in my, in my case it's like if I with a high degree of certainty think I'm going to vomit if I eat this gel then I, I don't. But if it's like me maybe 50, 50 then, then it goes down.

So when you, when you have that 50, 50 thought and you go with the gel anyway, how often do you vomit?

Yeah, that's a good question. It's, it's very, it's very rarely. I actually when I have the 50, 50 thought it's never happened happened. So yeah, it's just a few times that happened during a race. I think that's the important thing. And the plan should be very easy to follow because that's a real issue because the plan could look very easy but when you're in the heat of the race then you are able to forget times. And so my goal is to eat on the bike 120 calories each 20 minutes. So that's about 360. I said 350. So yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's not like. Yeah. So every 20 minutes I, I try to consume that but of course if you're in a downhill going 100 km per hour then you can't do it and then have to wait somewhere. But I try to be as strict as the plan as follow as possible. But some things can always happen and often you do things on a lap or you lap things and you don't have 100% control of the time. So, so trying to make that plan as simple as possible. So for me to doing it like in 20 minutes interval and then I have like a bottle with, with which I marked and I in, in the bottle I have like diluted gel which 1 deciliter equivalent to 120 calories. So then I can, if I wonder am I on my plan? I can backtrack, I can look at my bottle and see, okay, I'm drinking two deciliters and I take in one energy bars. So that's one hour and 20 minutes of racing. So if I'm then at one hour and 40 minutes then it's time to, to do another drink.

That sounds like great advice because it is really easy to lose track of particularly on a, you know, on A long race like that. So yeah, that seems like very sensible advice. Is there anything else that you've kind of found, any other techniques like that that you found that really have improved your fueling strategy since you've been racing?

Yeah, no, it's, I don't know. Earlier tried with isotonic drinks and it really didn't go well but. And I tried it for a while in training and when there was one race I vomited on myself during the bike leg when I was doing the, the isotonic drink. But. And you can say it didn't work for me at least at that time. But maybe if I, I've been, I've tried it now with another product and did more testing, maybe then it would work. But trying to, to at least find. Yeah, it's like my approach is, is you that based on science so you can, can look to science to, to read what is possible or not. And now we're trying, like Andy mentioned, we're trying to increase the intake 220 grams carbs per hour, which is a lot. And I tried it once, it didn't work. But that was the hot day training as well. So that was, I had a lot of issues that day. But even if I try, like you have to adapt to it and maybe you, you can do it and maybe you can't because the science paper was like it was really beneficial for the ones who did it. But if you read the science paper, out of it was seven people who were really successful, but two of those was taken out of the study because they had GI issues. So that's just over 20% of, of the participants had to withdraw from the study because of GI issues. So that's, that's not marginal in that regard. So maybe 120 grams is possible and there is a performance gain there. But maybe I'm one of the two people who would get GI issues despite doing the training. So you can't, you can't really take result of science and simplify it in that regard. So you just have to have science based approach to how you make the plan, I think, and be able to adjust and test.

And that's the key, isn't it? It's trying something, testing it and evolving it rather than as Andy said, just kind of of switching tactics completely. Now I know you're super keen on aerodynamics, I think I heard you say on a podcast I was listening to that you were striving to be the most aerodynamic triathlete that there is. And I think from a numbers point of view you were there at some point, I'm not sure. But what would have been the key steps in improving your aerodynamics over the years? Where do you think the biggest gains have come and why has it been so important?

Yeah, aerodynamic. I'm very passionate about it and I first went to a wind Tunnel in 2013 that was so I was, I was like a very eager age grouper at the moment and paid for my, my trip to the Southampton wind Tunnel. So I'm really like into aerodynamics with, into aerodynamics which helps but. And you can say the main thing is work on position first. Like go to a bike fitter and get your position dialed in in terms of biomechanics because you are going to run afterwards or hopefully you're going to run afterwards. So it isn't. The goal isn't to be as aerodynamic as possible. The goal is to finish your triathlon as fast as possible. And if you're, if your bike position is so difficult to maintain that you have to walk the marathon, then you haven't achieved your goal. So that's very important because otherwise you can just look at the tall de France rider and slam the stem and go really down. So that's important to, to, to avoid so dialing in your position as well at a bike fitter. You know aerodynamics and you know triathlon. So that's like the Alpha Omega. But then you also have some very, very like easy thing and inexpensive things you can, can you can do. And I, I don't understand why not everyone are using. It is like the, the Arrow aero cuffs not the compression cuffs like compression. Everyone had compression cuffs because that people believed in. But aero cuffs which like saves you 10 watts costing maybe 30 pounds. That's few people are using it and I, I don't understand why but that's, that's really, really a quick win. And then get a tri suit. Which is very close fitting that's also huge. And a time trial helmet is also very good and it's individual basis as well. But there are a few helmets which generally tests better than others. I have the Kask Bambino non sponsored which is quite good. But I would also check out the.

H. I think it's HJC, isn't it?

HJC yeah. AdWatch. Yeah that looks awesome as well. But. And you have to test it in your position because some time trial helmets go down in your field of vision and then it's all wasted because then you have to look up and then it keeps a huge strain in your neck and Reduces aerodynamic as well. So find a good time trial helmet with like this medium to semi short tail which doesn't get in your vision. That's then you're quite good. It's a lot of helmets and I tested it in wind tunnel and you have like a few watts here and there. But that's, that's not the main issue. You have to, you have to get the time trial helmet to, to get those 10 watt savings. Yeah.

Because actually I was chatting to Matt Bottrill about this and I had a re. I'd historically had a sort of what a long necked TT helmet but for my position I needed a short necked one and that was producing far better performance.

So.

Yeah, I get that. One question that always seems to bug me around this subject is we spend our money getting our bike fit, getting the optimum position. We've got this really slick helmet and got expensive bikes and then we've got this flappy number that's like this sail sticking behind us. Is there a better race solution for your race number than just a traditional race belt with it sort of flapping around at the back?

Yeah, that's a good question. I think Tim Don actually tested it in wind tunnel and it didn't seem to have any effect. But you have like the UK based company called Nopence. I'm sponsored by, by racer by the way. But it's those have like this, this number belt where the, where it's tight to your body. So I'm, yeah, I've, I've been on the verge to actually buying one to, to test out because like it, it.

Feels better and it probably looks better as well.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But some triathlons now we are moving to yet you don't have to have your number belt on the bike so you just can use it on the run. So. But I agree it looks better and feels better but the effect, I think it's nothing to be concerned about.

Okay, that's interesting. It always feels like this. It's like one of those sails on the back of a drag racing car or something.

But maybe it shouldn't be good to have the number belt flapping around. But if you. At least the tests I've seen haven't seen any effect of it then. But then again it doesn't mean that it isn't an effect. It can be 1 watt but that's the margin of error in the wind tunnel as well. So it isn't. Yeah, you don't know. I would try the no pins belt maybe then.

Okay. Okay, brilliant. And Andy mentioned something beforehand that I wasn't aware of and that is, I think you've. Am I right in saying that you've had. You've recently found out about a heart condition that you're having to be careful of? Is that correct? And do you mind talking about that? Particularly given what was going on with Christian Eriksen in the Euros a couple of weeks ago? Is that something you're happy to talk about?

Yeah, I think I got it. One day after the Christian Eriksen incident, I was doing the first triathlon race in one year. Yeah. And it's a 70.3 distance race and yeah, it was a very fierce and competitive field actually for being a local race in Norway because all the top contenders for Norseman was there and I was, I was in the mix. We were all for four of us was got together at the end of the bike and then I noticed that my half heart was pumping hard. So the sensation is that my heart is pumping harder and like out of rhythm. And then I watched at my, my heart rate and it was about 15 beats above what it's been just a couple of minutes earlier. But then the last part, it's. It's quite easy when you go into transition. It's quite technical and you have to calm down. So everything was okay when I started to run and I didn't think anything more about it and it was nice until 20 or 7 kilometer of the. After 21 kilometers. Then I got the spike in heart rate as well. And then I stopped, took a manual count and the heart rate monitor showed the right number. And then I walked for a minute, tried to run again and I was running easy with, with 165 beats per minute, which normally I would have 110 at that pace. So then I just took it easy back home to transition.

And are you, what are your thoughts on. Have you had it checked out since and, and how is that impacting your training racing going forward?

Yeah, so yeah, I have experienced it just a couple of times in training previously, but it was during like the extreme cardiovascular load, like 30 seconds on, 30 seconds off on a treadmill where you run or give everything you can in 30 seconds and jump off off. So then I experienced it just. It can for just, just some, some seconds there. I can notice that something was, was off but like one minute rest afterwards. Then it was all good. So. But now when I got it in a race I had to, to get it checked out. So I've been at, at Norway's top resource for heart related issues among athletes. So he, he's, he's maybe one of the best in the world to, to actually check it out. So he took an, what do you call it? The ultrasound? Yes. A picture of the heart and everything looks, looks good. The heart is large but that's normal for, for athletes. And I tried to provoke the, provoke the arrhythmia on, on a similar treadmill test. So I was running as hard as I could for half an hour and I provoked it for, and I got it for two seconds. That was, I wasn't managed to do so after that I did a 48 hour EKG test and so but everything is, it looks normal and not dangerous in that kind. So I just sent in some data because I'm sponsored by Pullar as well and I've used the Pular heart rate monitor which is like the gold standard for the heart rate monitor. So then you can actually get some information about what happens during when I got the spikes. So I sent in the data from the training sessions where I noticed the arrhythmia and I haven't talked to him later. But I'm training as normal and my race schedule is as normal until at least he finds something which is disturbing. But everything looked normal. So it wasn't like when people are dying suddenly dying. The reason for it is mainly genetic. But you are at higher risk if you're an elite athlete because you're pushing your heart harder. So yeah, but that's at least it was the right decision to stop the race and get it checked out. And of course if I've been 1500 and 33000 meter track runner then probably our career was, would be over. Yeah. Because you, you are going to. But, but for long distance races you don't like. I push myself quite hard at high intensity in training as, as well. But it like it, it had happened for minutes during years of training. So it's, it's not a big issue.

But, but it also highlights the importance of keeping an eye on your heart rate while you're, while you're running.

No, I, I don't think, I don't care that much about heart rate actually because a lot of people said yeah, you should check your heart rate monitor. But it is, I don't, I don't run on, I don't run on heart rate. I don't, I run on feeling. So. But you really feel that something is off.

Okay.

Yeah. So that's because sometimes you can get error with the, with the heart rate monitor as well. But it's it's more the sensation like if, if you feel that something is off it's at least it should be taken seriously. And it is like similar with every like injury because people say to me that I'm lucky because I haven't been injured and my response is like, like yeah. But I have had every injury you can mention. Like, like I have plantofardiitis. Plant of fighter fasciitis. Yeah, I had jumped off me, I had runners knee, I had the inflammation in my shoulders, I had a broken shoulder. I had, yeah, I had Achilles 10. Yeah. Achilles tendonitis. Yeah. So like, but, but it's like you, you can, if you, if you go on a three hour run with your racing flats and then you, you feel pain underneath your foot afterwards and you can conclude that you pushed it too far. So I've, I've done that and, and like yeah, it's probably a damage in the plantofardiitis, plantar fasciitis. So then I should probably let it rest for a while. So that's what I've been doing is like if you have a needle then I listen to my body and the next day you can do the test. Is it better or is it worse? And if it's better. Yeah, then you can do it. Yeah then you can do some easy activity that doesn't provoke pain but try to do activity, not pacify it. And if it's worse then you have to maybe pacify it or support it and try to avoid loading it. So it's like even if I got the injuries it's only prevented me for running or like maximum one week and then I've been back on track and then I've been cycling and swimming in the mean while so I haven't noticed like anything loss in fitness or anything. So it's just trying to listen to your body and just this is generally a good advice I think because people are getting some niggles and they just push through hoping it for some magical way to disappear. But like endurance athletes mostly we do damage, we hurt ourselves.

I remember Tim Don saying the same thing. Just as soon as he feels any sort of niggle he'll just stop or ease off just because he, you know, that's the best way to prevent bigger injuries. So one question I always ask as we sort of wind up this interview is you've mentioned the Tim Noakes book already, but are there any other books that you have found particularly helpful in your journey or any books you find yourself recommending to other people?

Yeah. Like you, I do listen to podcasts when I'm, when I'm out riding. I don't. I know not everyone agree, but yeah, I do tone it off in traffic and when I'm out on the country road and I do get a lot of time to listen. So it's a lot of the books that's typically mentioned, like endure. But also I got a recommendation from Anti, not personal, but on a blog, it's called Burn, which is about metabolic, I don't know, nutrition.

Yeah, it's all about how human metabolism works, isn't it? And like how activity affects your metabolism of food and energy.

I remember, I think you mentioned this in the interview I did of you actually, and it's on my reading list, but I haven't got to it yet, so.

So.

That'S great advice, Andy. Are there any other questions that I've missed that you think that you'd like to ask, Alan?

Oh, no, I think we've covered a lot of that. I suppose there's one, just this little one at the end because as I'm getting older and not training and competing anywhere near the same level, Alan's still very much in the cut and thrust there. Especially given the talk of niggles and injuries, heart conditioning. How healthy do you think it is being a professional triathlete, Alan? Because I think a number of years ago most people would have held up elite endurance athletes as being amongst the healthiest people on the planet and in certain dimensions they are. But how healthy do you think the maintenance of this really high training volume is? And how long do you see yourself wanting to keep it up for?

Yeah, and that's a really good question and, but I approach it from a health first perspective. So actually my long term health, it's the most important thing. I do want to be able to do an IRONMAN When I'm 80 years old and I want to live to 100 years old, at least in healthy ways. So, so I don't want to push through if it compromises my health. Of course. Now my heart issue, if that would be, if my doctor would say, yeah, this is serious, then I would quit. But otherwise I feel very healthy. I'm very seldomly injured and very seldom sick. So overall general health is, is really, really good. And I have, I, I work on oil rig part time and I have a lot of colleagues and sometimes they got like, they got niggles as well, they got like inflammation in their shoulders but they're not training anything. So if I get an inflammation in my shoulders, I Know it's probably because I'm. I overloaded it during a swim so then I can stop swimming but they overloaded it doing basically nothing. So how are they going to recover you might ask. And they don't in the same way. So I think you, you can do it both healthy and unhealthy and I tried to, this is something I focus on as well a lot the last years is always fuel your heart session properly, never under fuel in, in training. And that's really, really, really, really important because you can be anorectic and perform very highly. We had it in elite athletes in Norway. Someone was had severe eating disorder and they were world class athletes but only for a couple of years and then they were completely burned out and had to quit. So. And you have a lot of athletes who are taking like painkillers. I never take painkillers, I never take medicines. So at least until opposite this is proven then I think I'm doing it in a very healthy way. I don't think I have any health benefits of training more but I don't think I have health benefits of reducing it either as as long as everything feels and looks good.

Sounds like great advice to me. I think ultimately this is exactly why I got into it and which is one of the reasons why I'm really interested in the fueling side of things because it has always been, you know, it's not just about running or cycling or swimming more it's also about putting the right things in your body, isn't it? So that you can be in the, in the best shape you can possibly be.

I think also Charlie, that's a really interesting comment that Alan sort of made on Unprompted there about fueling those heavy training sessions because increasingly it's something that I know looking back at my heavier training sessions I often would would feel okay but quite often I would err on the side of under fueling because I sort of thought there would be some kind of metabolic and weight loss benefit to, to doing long hard sessions on the minimum fuel I could and then, then when I had more fuel on race day it would be, it would almost be like an enhanced effect and I think we pretty much know now that almost university the opposite is true. It's like you, you don't recover as well, you can't maintain as high a training load and so it is, it doesn't mean you have to feel ridiculously in every single session you do. But those key hard training sessions, the simulation ones for races and the ones where you're really building your sort of high aerobic endurance. Definitely need to be fueled and hydrated really, really adequately because then you get more out the session, you recover faster, you get up the next day and go again and you don't get that breakdown. You know, you don't add to the stress of the training in a negative way.

And, and I think that's a recurring theme that I'm hearing time and again. So I remember Claire Fudge saying that, the nutritionist. But, but interestingly, Phoebe Liebling, who's a nutritional specialist as well, she was saying even more important for female athletes to avoid fasted training because it's even more detrimental to them because of their hormonal cycle.

So.

Yeah, brilliant. Alan, it's been absolutely fascinating chatting to you. It's been wonderful researching, finding out more about what you've been up to. Certainly you've had an incredible career so far and I can't wait to, to see how that evolves over the coming years. And Andy, thanks very much for being a part of this interview too.

Anytime.

Yeah, thanks for, for having me on. It's, it's, it's an honor and a pleasure to talking to you guys.

Brilliant. Thank you, guys. Alain is on Facebook and Instagram, but the best place to find the links for him and all the information about him is his website, which is tryalan.com T R I A double L A N dot com. So, Andy, what did you make of that chat with Alan?

He's a, he's a great guy, isn't he? Lots, lots of like, lots of really interesting information. He's got a great, great take on the sport. I particularly enjoyed hearing his sort of philosophy about health, first performance, you know, while it, while it lasts. Because that for, that's very, for a personal, for personal reasons, that's definitely become something I'd come a lot more conscious of in the last five years or so because I think I, I probably abused my body quite a lot with, with triathlon, you know, I definitely pushed through a lot of nasty injuries, ended up having surgery on my knee as a result and sort of learn a lot of those lessons the hard way. So for someone who makes a lot of their living doing the sport, it's refreshing to hear a more balanced take on it.

Yeah.

And like I said when he, when he mentioned that I got into cycling initially and then triathlon because it was all about being the healthiest I could be. So I completely agree with that. I think, and it's interesting that he too is very comfortable with the amount of training, but it's about doing it in the right way and easing off and. Yeah, and I think that also comes down to the nutrition, which obviously, you know, you understand extremely well. And actually one of the things that came out of previous conversation with Phoebe was the importance of making sure the electrolytes were right. Which again is kind of come back to what Alan was saying.

Yeah, yeah, definitely. That whole supporting the training you're doing and making sure that you hear. The interesting thing is people listen to Alan and kind of infer the guy's doing a lot of training. You know, he's doing hours and hours of training. How is that so, how is that so, okay. Well, I think part of it is because his life is set up to absorb that. He's not trying to do that before and after work, you know, and, and all the rest of it. He does work, but it's part time. And I know that when he works, he's full on working and when he's training, he's full on training. And that's always a, that's always an interesting one. Especially with really high achieving, aspirational age group athletes who want to aspire to train like pros, but who in reality, it's not an appropriate level of stress to throw on top of the rest of your life. So it's kind of, you know, hearing it through, hearing it with that in mind is that what if 28, 25 hours a week of training might be totally cruisy for Alan, but it might not be if you're, if you're also in the office from 8 till 6 every day.

Yeah, yeah, I think that's a good point. And I love the conversation around the extreme triathlons. And I just think they're, you know, having, I mean, not done one yet. But I will definitely be there on my radar to start, start diving into because they do sound like. I mean, I know I'm never going to be getting on a podium anytime soon. So actually making the things, the races and experience is much more important to me. And, and whether it's the Norseman, whether it's Patagon man or even the Lofotend Triathlon, these sound far more interesting than just going off and doing racing for race's sake.

Oh, 100%. I mean, it's definitely what I've been preaching the last few years by doing swim, run, adventure races and that sort of thing. It's about the experience and the Lofoten one. That's probably the first time in a lot of Years I've actually got that. The fleeting thought in my head of I wonder if I should get my triathlon bike out again. That actually sounded like, okay, that sounds cool. I really like the sound of that.

Well, maybe we ought to be doing this together. I think we ought to be looking at when it happens and we'll try and create a plan out of that because I think that sounds awesome. And if I could combine it with seeing some killer whales swimming through the New York Norwegian Fjord. Well, actually, don't forget the sea. Seeing it's the. Well, I want to see them, but I want to. I want to swim with. I want to dive with killer whales. That's what's on my bucket list. So if I can combine the two, then I'll be a very happy man.

That is a very efficient trip, then.

Yeah, exactly.

Flights, killer whales, swimming and triathlon. Mega triathlon.

Sounds like a plan. And in fact, I was chatting to Shane Benzi about the killer whales in Norway. I'm sure I was, because he. We started off his podcast talking about sharks. So, so, so.

Conservationist, didn't he? Down into South Africa and all over the place. I think that's it.

Yeah, yeah, Predominantly in Hans Bay in South Africa. But yeah, we actually, we. I think we joked after the podcast we'll, we'll have to go to Norway and do the killer whales together, so maybe we can even drag him out there as well for a good. For some good run coaching. But yeah, no, I really enjoyed the chat with Alan. Loads of really good stuff in there and loads of really good advice around dealing with the cold in particular, because that's something that I'm rubbish at. So I think that was really good. But also coming back to how you guys have helped him in terms of adapting from being training mostly in the cold to then switching to the heat and the importance of getting what you guys do do right.

Yeah, Alan's. Alan's an exemplar athlete for that because he obviously lives in a cold climate most of the year. He's had, you know, he's raced now successfully in the heat. Most of us who do triathlon, you're going to have to race in the heat at some point, you know, especially if you've got aspirations of going to a big championship. They're mostly in hot places and. But he's been an exemplar of that philosophy of like, work out a scientifically based but flexible plan, adapt and iterate it. And that's the mantra that we keep, Keep banging on about. Precision Hydration, you know, it's just get, get the number, get, know your numbers, know how much fluid you're going to need, how much sodium you're going to need, how much carbohydrate you're going to need, and then have that, have that, like he said, those reasons to deviate from that plan on the day. And if you do that and you repetitively do that, you learn and you pick up loads of little learnings along the way, like he has, until it becomes second nature. And, and that's when you really pull out your best performances.

And I'm sensing, I see in the background you've got one of these, one of the lovely precision hydration bottles that you've very kindly sent me. But I'm sensing they need a little series of measures on them based on what Alan's advice said. So that we can maybe a smaller one for your gels, diluted.

You know, funnily enough, we have been talking about all of this because I think you're right, because I think we're, we're starting to understand that obviously gels in individual packets are a useful tool, but a lot of people want to use gels on the bike in a bottle. We're actually very close to getting the artwork finalized for what's being code named the Jumbo gel in our office. So that's going to be a gel pack which has 90 grams of carbohydrates. So it's like the three of our standard gels in a single pack. Because for a long distance race, if you're going to dump that into a bott, if you're just going to carry it on the run, it makes a lot more sense. It's got a resealable top so you can run along with that. But I think you're right, a lot of people are hacking that process at the moment. We maybe need to look at some, yeah. Some better tools to help them.

Some interesting bottles to go on. So brilliant. Andy, it's been fantastic that you could join me as co host. Thank you so much for doing that. And for those of you that have forgotten, I'm sure you haven't forgotten, but triathlon is the discount code if you use a precision hydrations website. So, yeah, great to chat to you. Thanks for your contribution interviewing Alan and for everybody else, keep on training. If you've enjoyed this triathlon podcast, please do go to Apple Podcast and rate it and review it. It massively helps us to deliver a better podcast. It helps people find it as well. So, yeah, go to Apple Podcasts. Give us some feedback, give us a rating and a review, and please share it with your friends, because ultimately, that's what allows us to keep delivering more and more of these podcasts. And don't forget to download the Tribathlon app for more amazing podcasts, but also to help you train, compete, and to build your tribe.