The Arc50

Foreign.

I'm charlie redding. And I'm claire fudge and this is the tribeathlon podcast.

Crisps in my pocket. These are amazing. You know, I had like a little packet of salt and vinegar french fries I don't think I've had since I was about 12 and they were like amazing. That's all I wanted at that point in time.

That was my co host Claire Fudge. And this episode is a slightly different version of the Tribathlon podcast because this episode features a number of different guests from previous podcasts talking about the amazing experience that is the Ark50 Cornish Ultramarathon. For those regular listeners of the Triathlon podcast, you'll know that normally we feature an interview with one single high end sports athlete, you know, usually from the running, swimming, cycling world and but this episode is different. So this episode is a culmination of people that I've met through the podcast all descending on one specific event. So that event is the Ark 50 a ultramarathon around the Cornish coastline. So that's 50 miles that's run from the Minnock Theatre down on the south coast. This stunning amphitheater looks over Porthcurnow beach and you run round through Land's End and along the north Cornish coast, which for any of you know, it is a very spiky stretch of coastline but absolutely stunning. And you finish in the beautiful village of Portht Towan which has a few of the biggest spikes, probably the biggest spikes just in the lead up to it, just in case your legs weren't completely trashed at that point. So I, when I first heard about this race from previous guest Claire Smith, otherwise known as Brutal Claire, that she was actually doing the Arc of Attrition, which is the hundred mile version. But having never at the point I heard about this, I'd never run ultra distance before. Obviously I went on to kind of in my training to run longer distances so that I could qualify for running the arc 50. But as soon as I heard about this event I was like, oh, you know, I love Cornwall. I spent a lot of time on the Cornish coastline, spent a lot of time running on the Cornish coastline. And so I was like, this is the ultra for me, this is going to be amazing. But also knowing the Cornish coastline, I knew how challenging it was it was going to be. So I shared this idea with a few people had become friends since they had featured on the podcast, namely Warren Pole of 33 Fuel. He was one of my earliest guests on the podcast, talking about how you can fuel your racing but in a healthy and super food orientated manner. And then I shared this with Kerry Sutton, an amazing ultra runner that's done everything from the jungle ultra in Peru to leading the Spine race to running across Scotland 215 miles last summer. So, and somehow these two incredible athletes, you know, Warren's done I think 35 Ultras. Kerry, we lost track of how many she's done. These two guys, plus their respective partners Erica and James, who are also accomplished athletes in their very own rights, decided that they would love to crew me doing the Cornish arc 50, which was absolutely amazing. And then chatting to other guests, other former guest and now co host of the Tribathlon podcast, Claire Fudge of fourth Discipline. When I was chatting to her, when I went for my sweat test, my precision hydration sweat test, I mentioned that I was doing this ultramarathon and you know, Claire is an accomplished Ironman athlete. Again, I've lost track of how many Ironman she's done, but she'd never done an ultra at this point either and suddenly she was intrigued by this concept. So eventually we ended up with this tribe of six of us. So Claire and I running the ultra. Erica and Warren from 33 Fuel Supporting. Kerry and James from Perpetual Motion coaching supporting. And it just evolved. So we spent a lot of time in the lead up to it kind of planning nutrition and planning actual race strategies and all of that sort of stuff. Claire even went down to, to Cornwall over a few days and ran the entire route over four days just so that she knew what she was letting herself in for. And then, and then when we got there, it was like this massive learning experience. Learning from the wisdom of particularly Kerry and Warren, but also from Erica and James as well. And so it was this incredible learning experience for us. I also learned a huge amount from Claire with regards to the nutrition. There was the infamous Waitrose shop that kind of evolved and evolved, but it was, it was absolutely fantastic as a experience. And then the event itself just lived up to every expectation. So we decided what we would do is instead of doing a traditional Tribathlon podcast, we would do a Ark 50 themed podcast. And within this we've got a snippet, a 15 minute interview with Ferg, the organizer of the Arc of attrition and the arc 50, which actually came slightly later than the, the Arc of Attrition. So because I really wanted to understand the history of race and kind of he's an extremely accomplished Ultron as well, so pick his brains on it from, from his perspective. And then also Previous guest of the podcast, Nikki Spinks. The legendary runner that is Nikki Spinks was taking on the arc of attrition, the 100 Milo, and she went on to become the first lady through the finish line. So that was amazing. So there's also a 15 minute chat with Nikki in here.

But the.

But the lion's share of this podcast is a chat between Warren Pole of 33 fuel, Kerry Sut of Perpetual Motion Coaching, Claire Fudge, my co host and founder of Fourth Discipline, and myself, Charlie Redding, talking about what we learned doing this experience and running this incredible race round what can only be described as a stunning part of the country. So I hope if you are a ultra runner or you're thinking about running an ultramarathon or if you're just a runner and you kind of think, well, what is this ultra stuff about? This podcast will act as some inspiration and also act as a guide as to what we did to make the race so successful for us as an experience. And, and it wasn't, it didn't always feel like it was going to be that way. I had some, I'd been ill for a couple of days beforehand and I really went into it not being confident of being up to my normal standard. And actually from 13 miles in, I hit some really dark places and, and it was the help of the crew, it was the help of Claire, and it was the preparation that went into the, you know, what the crew had that allowed me to get through those dark times. At 13 miles, I didn't think I was going to get halfway.

So.

But what getting through those dark times and allowed me to finish, but also running it with Claire, I'm sure that if I continue to do this on my own, as I'd originally planned, that I, there was a good chance I might not have finished this or certainly not have finished it as quickly. And that camaraderie of both running it with Claire but also having the crew there made a massive difference to this experience. So I know you're going to get loads from this podcast. It's a slightly different one to normal, but there is so much good wisdom in here from Warren's experience, from Kerry's experience and Claire's experience with regards to nutrition and me as just the person that is continually trying to learn something new. So I hope you enjoy this episode of the Tribeathlon podcast. Today's show is brought to you by Precision Hydration, who help athletes personalize their hydration and fueling strategies so they can perform at their best. They work with a long List of incredible athletes, including multiple 70.3 champions, Sam Appleton and Sarah Crowley. You check out their details@precisionhydration.com and that also includes details of their quick carb calculator to help you understand how much carbohydrate you need per hour to perform at your best. So they're trying to do for fueling what they've already done for. For hydration. And as a listener of the show, you can get 15% off your first order of electrolytes or fuel using the code Tribeathlon15 at the checkout. So on the back of an amazing weekend, running the Arc50 with my incredible crew, we got Warren, Erica, we've got Kerry and James and Claire running it with me. The inspiration to keep running that little bit faster. We thought it would be really interesting to do a episode where we were kind of diving into the details of the Ultron because of the expertise that we've got on the crew and with Claire's running. So I want to kick things off and maybe I'm going to. I know that Claire, you're a. I know now that you're a planner. So talk me through what it was like to plan. I know you've run similar distances before, but this was like me, your first organized Ultra. What was it like to plan your first Ultra?

I guess very different from planning Ironman actually, but using that kind of same concept. So I wanted to go and have a look at the course, which I actually wouldn't really do at Ironman. I might kind of look online and if I had time to kind of check out a few of the, like, major climbs, I'd do that before. But I was lucky enough to go down to Cornwall and actually I did the whole of the course in over four days. So that, to me was like a massive learning point. And we'll. We'll talk a little bit about kind of. That was the start of all my technology problems. Started weeks before the event. Um, and then actually on the nutrition side of things, I did actually I. Well, I should have planned it out and I actually did plan out. Um, so that was kind of similar to Iron man and just kind of a little bit of knowledge about ultra running and. But I'd never, you know, put myself in kind of in terms of like a race situation doing that distance. So, yeah, it was. It was interesting, but it was all planned out. But, like, everything. You've got to have like a B and C plan, which is very much what I had in my head.

Did you find it more daunting planning for this than an Ironman or is it just kind of because you've done lots of Ironmans that you know?

No, not at all. I actually, because like from the nutrition perspective I actually was really good. Like I actually. Because it was doing something different for me because my, my kind of background is not ultra running and some of my colleagues are brilliant. They work with ultra runners the whole time. So um, you know, anybody that I usually have on board I send to them in terms of ultra running. So it's actually really good experience for me to kind of plan that out. So yeah, it was fun actually.

It was good and I'm intrigued from our cruise point of view. So Kerry and Warren, what you know, did you guys have to, did you do any planning for this in advance? Because I mean you, you just came into our lives and were, and just were super organized. You guys have done this loads and loads of times. So was there anything that you did in advance as the crew that was kind of helped you plan?

Yeah, well, I certainly looked at the course, looked at sort of points where it might sort of, you know, because there's more climbs or more technical bits, it might take it out of you. Therefore just making sure that at those places you were eating because you were obviously going to need more than maybe if you're just going on the flats. So I did look at the course, read all the course notes and then just sort of spend some time and did my own sort of planning as to what I might do and then that would help me sort of have a. Be able to visualize a bit better what, what then might work for you guys. Although fully appreciating you to have your own plan. And I was, you know, I, I was there to support you and it wasn't, I wasn't bringing my, my own ideas and it was more that I was going to be able to sort of really. I had put myself in your. In your shoes, if you like, as far as I could.

And Warren, I know we spoke a bit beforehand about nutrition and things like that. We're going to come on to nutrition in a minute. But other than nutrition, was there anything that, that you guys did in advance?

So to, to echo what Kerry and James were doing as well, it was, it was definitely getting familiar with the course, getting an understanding of what you were in for in terms of elevation, trail conditions, weather, and then a version of the same preparation you would have done for the race. Literally. I mean I make lists, I had a list of things that I knew I needed to have that Erica and I would need to have in the van for you to be able to deal with what was going on. And that's not much more complicated than things like a sleeping bag, torch batteries, crates to keep things in just so we can find everything easily in the dark. It's that, it's that thing of being able to lay your hand on what you need without having to put on a light to find it and sort of having that infrastructure in place for you but to flip it and I think, I think Kerry would probably agree with me on this. You guys were really good to crew. You were so organized we were able to literally plug in. You know, you had things pre bagged, you had a plan of where you were going to be when you had time schedules, you had the GPX files ready. You made our job a lot easier I think by the preparation that you did. It was easy to become a part of it.

Well, I think we both knew by the end of this that we were clearly planners. I mean we probably, we both knew we were planners beforehand anyway. But I think there was the amount of conversation that just evolved around the Waitrose shop was, was sufficient to demonstrate how much planning was going on here. But, but, but you know, I think that I really enjoyed that aspect of it. I really enjoy and you know, I think I've also learned took from you know, doing triathlons. Those lists are your saving grace, aren't they? Because and of course the first time you do an ultra or a triathlon you, you don't have your list or you've borrowed somebody else's list and then you evolve, your lists evolve and, and kind of grow with you and I'm hoping it just becomes easier and easier as, as time goes on. So with regards to nutrition, obviously we've got Kerry who's got, you've got a wealth of experience of running these sorts of things. Warren, you, you live and breathe nutrition. As do you Claire. So what were. I'm going to start off with Claire and say well you know, what was your approach to nutrition for the race? What was that plan beforehand and how close to your original plan did you execute?

I would say like I, I based it on, I based it very much on like knowledge. So using kind of my knowledge but also my experience of racing myself. So kind of knowing myself and knowing what happens when I race. So with that thinking about the ultra run being different from more high intensity, even like Ironman distance, that it was going to be a totally different pace and I would be able to, to Take different fueling on but also the fact that we had like boulders and things to climb. So there were the big long stretches where we actually needed our hands and that was for me I factored that in. So one of the things that I thought about was actually and Kerry was amazing because Kerry was and James were keeping me topped up with like water and my carbohydrate based drink. So I was happened to be using Morton so I was using that as something to sip on. So I knew when I had to use my hands I had a liquid source of energy that actually I had no reason not to take it on. And I guess that my kind of A, B and C plan was that I would very much front load as much as I can with carbohydrates knowing that what I'm like later on in a race. Um, but actually I came into my own and Kerry like my scotch pancakes were a winner towards the end. That was what I was on. Which is definitely not what I'd be on in an Ironman. But that was like in my, in my. Well you'll know Charlie. It was on my Waitrose shop. Like what, what would I, what would I fancy, what would I need? But they were like an absolute winner in terms of like pancakes like pan size. I could run with it. It was, it was amazing. And one of the things that was great about having, I mean many things that are great about having crew and I think that was really different from again Ironman racing. And I was thinking, God it'd be amazing if you could have that because you know, just checking in with you guys like every couple of hours and you know, Kerry and James were kind of my crew and like that was just amazing to have somebody just like say actually you're a little bit behind. And there were times Kerry like that I was behind like right at the very beginning. And actually knowing that we had to like stop and top up was a really good way to actually kind of nudge myself to get actually yeah, I'm a bit behind. So it did actually go to plan. I felt like I had no dark moments is what I'd say. Like it was amazing. And that is like, you know also because we're kind of seeing people the whole time. But actually I think one of my reasons for not having a dark point is I never felt under fuel. I felt, I felt really good.

And obviously, you know Warren, we spoke a bit before the race about nutrition and you'd very kindly sent me some 33 greens which were, which were there to kind of, you know, keep my immune system up because I'd got, you know, Carol in the house with COVID and that was brilliant. But it was also we had a good chat about, you know, kind of planning that fueling strategy. So, you know, as you said, we bagged everything up for each stop and that. And that seemed to work well. But my, the thing that was interesting me was how my needs and tastes changed over the course of the race. So to start with, I have my usual breakfast and to start with, I was very much, you know, really running well on Things like the 33 Fuel Cheers Gels and, and then weaving that in with Spring Energy gels. And then I expected, having been able to run whilst eating solids previously, to do exactly the same thing in this race. But for whatever reason, it really didn't work for me. And I did have my dark moments, or as Claire described, my sense of humor. Humor failure and way too early in the race. And I'm sure it was because I'd been unwell for the previous two days and, you know, I was getting headaches, tight chest, but my stomach really wasn't happy as well after I tried to eat the solid food. And so I think one of the things that I took from it was, you know, I got this great plan in advance that I was going to have this bag of food at each, you know, at each station. But very quickly I realized, right, suddenly now these things aren't working for me anymore and these things really are, and I just need to stick to that. And fortunately, we'd got enough of the stuff that I could stick to. So spring seemed to work really well. Later on in the race, the new Ph Tues worked really well for me just because they were just so, so easy. But. But, yeah, but some of the, like the Vela Forte gels, which I normally love when I'm running, totally didn't just. I just couldn't stomach them by the end of it. And then, and then the other revelation to me was the salted peanuts. So when we went into the feed station, like, salty. Oh, wow, salted peanuts. So, you know, you guys amazingly went off and got me salted crisps and salted peanuts for a later cruise. Stop. How does all of that. You know, firstly, Warren, what would you make of what I learned from my nutrition experience based on your nutrition wisdom, but also your ultra experience.

So I think what you did there. And there are sort of two, two ways of doing this. A triathlon, particularly Ironman, is, as a sport and a discipline, more dogmatic in Its fueling nature. You're really focusing your fueling on the bike. It's a particular environment, it's quite gentle on the stomach, you can get quite a lot in and then you deal with what's on course on the run to get the job finished. That does lend itself to a more planned structure. Trail running distance, ultra running can get a bit more freestyle. It's longer, the conditions are different, the weather is different, there may be different foods available. You're carrying stuff, what you want to eat, you can have it with you. This, you then can turn that up again. You've got a crew so things can quite literally be delivered to you. The learning that you did, you know, Claire, you said you had your plan, you executed and it worked and that's brilliant. Charlie, you had a plan, you executed it, it needed to change. That was amazing that you were able to adapt and change with that. Rather than sticking to that dogmatic approach of, well, this is what I'm meant to be doing, I'm going to keep trying and forcing it down. Because when your body is rejecting food for whatever reason, like you don't want it or it's coming back or it's not, you're not tolerating it, that's a sign that you need to deal with and you've dealt with it. You know, you realize those tastes were changing. And one of the high points for me was being able to go into a pub somewhere along the course at around about, I don't know, it was dark, or was it 9 o' clock at night and get you those crisps because genuinely, I know what that craving feels like so much. But you can just never put a bag of crisps in your, in your pack. It takes up too much space. So to be able to satisfy that craving for you at that moment, I knew how good that was going to feel because I've been there and that was great. So, no, I think you did so well to adapt with it, but also to pack with that in mind. I think that that picnic approach to ultra running is a very useful one. You don't have to stick to any one fuel or another. There's an element of what would I like to eat here? And over time, an element of what time of day is it? Well, if it's dinner time, then maybe something a bit more savory. Makes sense. You wouldn't eat dessert all day. So it was fascinating to see, but really nice to see that it played out so well.

Well, and my ham and cheese role, whilst I expected to Attack them slightly earlier than I did. By the time I got to them they were extremely welcome because yeah, you've just, I mean, you know, I remember Beth Pascal saying that she'd have like just three spring energy gels every hour for the entire utmb. It's like actually with spring energy, I think it's the one I probably could just about do that with. But yeah, having something different, having that picnic approach and like you say, you know, just picking what you fancy. Kerry, how does it work? I mean, I can't get my head around how that would, what that would be like if it was 215 miles as opposed to 50 miles. How do you go about fueling a race like that?

Well, that sort of steps up another level because you're then having proper meals, you know, you go into an aid station and they'll give you a bowl of pasta and some sort of sauce on or whatever because you, you know, you need to be having even bigger amounts of food and keeping the sort of, you don't keep to the rhythm of meals obviously you certainly don't worry about whether it's lunchtime and are you having breakfast at lunchtime but, but at the same, but you do need to eat on a bigger scale and certainly gels would not kick it for that length of time. So, so yeah, so I very much, in fact I don't take gels on those but I do, I do rely on sort of gummy sweets or that sort of thing if I want a pick me up. But yeah, I think to sort of just go back again to what Warren said was, is adaptability and, and with that adaptability is listening to yourself. And I found myself wanting things on races that are in a normal run of the mill. I would never touch, you know, bits of. I don't like Coke particularly well in fact, I never have Coke but I do have black Coke on a race. I will also, I love canned tomato soup which has got zero nutritional value but there's something in that that come the later stages of 100 miler I will really, I will really look for. And also to go back to you on the, on those little pancakes, Claire, you were, you were like a kid in a candy shop over a pancake, a Scotch pancake. You were so excited to come in and get your scotch pancake and it was brilliant because it was giving you what you needed. The food was giving you a high point and it was something you could stomach. And you obviously mentally know once you can put something in then you know you've Got the fuel to sustain the next section. And I think, you know, watching both of your fueling strategies which were different, both of you did adapt. I mean you all packed for both eventualities and Claire certainly I know what you had in your, in your box and it was very much this is, this is what I want in my packages and I want gels and I want the little bars, but I've also got a box over here that if I crave a Mars bar or a banana or whatever else then, then that's all there as well. So I think that's always a wise strategy that you've got back up that there is an option, there's another option in case your taste change and mine, whilst one race something works, it might work on another race just as well. So it does all, you know, it's listening to yourself, it's having options and with a crew then you, you know, you definitely got the option of going and getting a banquet or a McDonald's which I've craved as well. And again, I wouldn't touch one of those in normal life.

And is it, is it our bodies telling us the nutrients that we need kind of at a far deeper level than we actually ever understand? I mean I remember Charlie Spedding saying, you know, if food tastes salty, you've probably got enough salt in your diet. If food doesn't say it tastes salty, then you probably need the salt. And is like Claire, is that, you know, is our body kind of demanding what it needs?

It's definitely. Well certainly if you, if you kind of look at kind of research in terms of like carbohydrates. So when you're very under fuels and even like taking this out totally out of a race situation, you know, our primal response when we're really under fueled is to go for quick release fuel. And that's why often people when they haven't eaten for a long period of time will just want quick release energy. So actually there is an element of that definitely like needing energy. And you know, actually me going for those pancakes was like my go to. I was like, oh my God, this is going to give me exactly what I want. And the same with salt, you know, very much so that like there is, you know, a primal part of this in terms of if you're really craving salt, you probably really do need it. And actually, you know, thinking about that kind of end of the race when when we both, you picked up the peanuts actually and I ran out of our checkpoint, I was like, I've got crisps in my Pocket. These are amazing. You know, I had like a little packet of salt and vinegar french fries I don't think I've had since I was about 12. And they were like, amazing. That. Oh, that's all I wanted at that point in time.

That highlights how much salt we need, doesn't it? Because I was having precision hydration tablets in every one of my waters. I was having the old odd salt ph salt tablet throughout the run, particularly when I started cramping after 13 miles, which was, yeah, very, very dark times. And so then to still be massively craving salty foods later on in the race.

Shows. Shows.

And you know, obviously this wasn't a hot race. I mean, you know, I can't think how challenging it would be to be doing MDs.

So.

Yeah.

So, Warren, what do you make of that?

Yes, I mean, I totally agree. It's the body is to a degree giving you some pretty simple signals. Eat salt, eat carb, eat this. You know, because of what you're depleted in. But also, if you look at a traditional race diet of sports nutrition, it's quite low in sodium anyway, compare it to your normal daily diet, you're probably in a sodium deficit over the course of a day just in terms of what you ate before you get to what you put your body through. So that craving is likely amplified by that as well, I would imagine, even without the heat. Wow.

And how would. In mds, Kerry, how would you deal with getting that much? Do you find the same problem that you need? Constantly craving salt?

They give you salt tablets and they're quite strict that you have to take them. And interestingly, when I did it last time, I was like, well, I don't take that salt. I don't eat, you know, consciously any salt in my food or anything. So I was a bit skeptical of it and I. And I took less than I was supposed to. However, I will take more this time. And I do appreciate why they're there and they are. They. You give them to you for a reason. But I think, you know, it's also going in and knowing you can get these sort of sweat tests and things and, and, or even just do a simple look at yourself. Am I a heavy sweater? Do I have white? You know, you'll know this from triathlon care. Do I have a sort of white marking on my T shirt when I finished, which would show that you're. You're excreting a lot of salt. So there's some quite simple markers that you can use to know how much salt you need and how much salt you take. But I, I, yeah, I'll be given salt on the mds because that could be a massive issue.

You're preaching to the converted here because Claire does the salt testing for precision hydration and precision hydration have a, have the online sweat test as well, which actually was amazingly accurate compared to what the actual sweat test showed up. So let's. I wanted to catch up with Nikki Spinks, legendary fell runner that she is, former podcast guest. Really recommend you listen to that episode. But she was the first female to cross the line in the hundred mile version of our race, the Arc of Attrition. So I wanted to catch up with her to find out what the race was like from her perspective in this relatively again, short interview. So, Nicky, having great to get you back on the podcast by the way, but you know, you've just completed the Arc of Attrition, the hundred mile version of the race that I've just done. I have to admit, as, as I was doing, as I was about mile 45, I was thinking, how on earth could you, could anybody do another, you know, 50 miles once I get to the finish? I was broken at 50 miles. So. So how did the race go for you?

It went well, I can say that now. It was very hard work while I was doing it. It something, I think hard work mentally in a way, because I'd not done anything like that before, so I was always worried that I'd set off too fast or. Yeah, things like that. Really?

How did it compare? Because, I mean, obviously you've got masses of experience in terms of the fell running stuff, you know, like you, your Bob Graham double, and your Paddy Buckley double, and Charlie Ramsey double. How, how does it, is it not really similar to that or is it a totally different experience?

No, because there was just so much that was runnable in the, I mean, I hadn't wrecked any of the first half to Mausole, so I didn't know what it was like, but I knew that there was eight miles of road in there and when we set off, it was a lot of the terrain was the paths were quite runnable, which for me, I've never done a marathon, so I don't really know how to run above maybe 10, 12 miles in one stint without having like, lots of walking. And there were bits of walking, but not really. Yeah, what I'm used to.

I see.

And that's really interesting. So, so when you do something like Bob Graham or whether it's a single or a double, are you walking significantly more than you were walking on the arc of a contrition then?

Yeah, I think. Yeah, definitely. And you're walking for longer periods, so maybe a whole hour while you're walking up to say 800 meters or so. It, you know, whereas the Ark, there was a, you know, 5,000 meters of climb in there, but it was all short. 1, 2, 300 meters maybe. Yeah, not even 300 meters, so just lots of short. So I found it quite hard because also at the top of every climb you sort of. You're on runnable terrain which is not the same as in the mountains. You usually get to the top and then, you know, it's walking, it's rough, it's still. You still have time to recover from the climb, right?

I think. So what made you want to do the arc of attrition then?

Well, because it was so different, I suppose, because it was obviously a challenge. You know, a lot of people drop out and I know I'm very experienced, but there's also a reason why lots of people drop out. And I wanted to test myself on something that was just completely different. And I mean, I reckon it. Sorry, when I wrecked it, it was really beautiful as well, but obviously I didn't get to see any of that because we ran it, most of it in the dark.

Yeah, it is a beautiful stretch of coastline. It's. What, it's why I was drawn to doing the arc 50 because, I mean, I know that coastline really well and it is, it is just stunning. As long as you can get your head up and look and yeah, obviously in the dark you don't see much either, but. But yeah, no. Well. And so. So overall, did you enjoy it? Is it the sort of thing that you're going to go back and do more of or will you kind of go back to more of the sort of fell type experiences?

Yeah, I don't, I don't think I'll do the arc hundred again. I mean it. I'm probably still hobbling around, so. But I think I also remember the eight miles through Penzance, which wasn't really my cup of tea. At least it was, I don't know, maybe 11 clock at night or something. So there wasn't too many cars and people about.

Yeah, yeah, I know the stretch you're talking about. Obviously I didn't have to do that in my race, but I do know, I do know the stretch you're talking about.

Yeah, so I did enjoy. As soon as we got to Mausole and the bit I knew I'd wrecked it. I knew where I was, not where I was going because it was in the dark. So I was still, I was still concentrating on the navy and making sure I didn't go wrong because it's very fiddly. But I just enjoyed the technical stuff. Even in the dark. I don't really mind running in the dark.

Yeah, yeah, the technical stuff, particularly around that stretch from Pending Mine through Zenith and Ives is. I really, I mean it's, it's hard going, but I really, I really enjoyed that. And in fact that bit kind of sorted me out from a few dark moments that arrived earlier than expected. So, yeah, climbing over the boulders and all that sort of stuff is. It was, it's beautiful there. I don't know, did you do that in the day or the dark?

In the dark. It got light at St Ives, so we did. Yeah, I did some of it in the day.

But yeah, it's a shame that you missed that bit because that for me is the most stunning stretch of all. All of it. But you'll have to go back and just walk that bit, perhaps. So how did you. So one of the questions I wanted to ask you was. So Claire Fudge, my co host that ran it with me, her watch battery ran out as we hit the dunes of doom. My watch battery did last the duration of the race, but I only had about 10% battery left and I turned off most of the features. The only thing I left on there that I thought I might, I could have turned off was the wrist based heart rate. But how do you, I mean, given that you require, you know, I'm assuming you use your watch to navigate the route. How do you deal with that? Or have you got like two watches that you switch over? How do you deal with it?

No, I bought, I bought a sort of charger that you could slip under between your wrist and the watch and then I carried a battery pack. So I, although it did, I. I got towards the end, so I had to charge it up twice because even though when I first started it, the watch said it had 28 hours of battery or something, I've done. I did the Lakes in a day as a practice and it ran out on me after 11 hours. So I knew, I'm not quite sure. I turned off everything as well and I wasn't sure whether it was the light because as it gets dark it was still lighting up as I turned it towards me. So maybe I need to turn that off as well.

And is this a Garmin? Is this a Garmin?

Yeah, the Fenix 6, which is really good. But I also had a handheld Garmin Dakota, which I had the whole route on and I had them at different resolutions so that the watch was like. Yeah, I had sort of more on the watch and then the Dakota I could have it zoomed in so that if I got to a path, the Dakota had everything on it as well. So. Yeah, so it was a good. It was. So I just had. I was using my watch mainly, but then when I got to tricky bits, I just pulled the handheld out.

Okay, that's.

Yeah.

So that's what ended up. Claire ended up resorting to on her, her Garmin. Well, it's a cycling GP device rather, but I mean, it worked well for her as the backup. But I didn't realize that you could get a. A charger that allows you to keep it on your wrist. So I, I will definitely look into that. That's very helpful. How did you. How did you fuel, you know, what did you. I remember watching your. And chatting to you about it on the episode we interviewed you when you were doing your Bob Graham double. I think you were having fish and chips and baked beans on toast and ambrosia cream rice. How did you fuel the arc of attrition?

I'd got some expedition food meals. I started off with macaroni cheese and then I went off that. Or I ate it all, I don't know. Damien then presented me with porridge, which I thought tasted disgusting, but actually as soon as it went down, my stomach decided it liked it so much. Damien's surprise. I reached for the bag again and then he made me up some custard with berries and granola with something else. Anyway, they're all meals that I know I like and they're 800 calories if, I don't know, I didn't eat the whole meal. But they're very high calorific.

Yeah. So would you just. Would you, you know, was Damien turning up with a chair and you were sitting down and eating it or you kind of shoveling it on? Shoveling it down on the move. How did you do that?

I just had that When I met Damien, I didn't meet him all. How many times. Maybe 10 times out of wherever you could meet. Yeah. Because I thought otherwise I'd just be stopping all the time. And bananas I took from the checkpoints and some Coke and then bars and then lots of sort of sweets and there's some honey coated nuts that I use that are very high calorific. Because I think early on I was Trying to eat quite a lot because I knew when I got onto the rocks you had to use your hands as well and navigating you using your hands. And so I knew that I wouldn't probably eat enough overnight because I'd be thinking about other things. And it worked. Yeah, that worked really well actually. I mean, I was sick once, but that's. It's quite usual middle of the night stomach ones is what the nurse going up wrong and.

Yeah, yeah, that's really interesting actually. And I suppose, I mean I, I was very conscious to try and front load the race with. With fuel because you also know that you're just going to get kind of fatigue of eating the same types of things, aren't you? So if you get the, if you get the fuel in at the start then. But I mean, clearly you're racing. Your total race was about 25 hours, I think, wasn't it? Whereas mine was sort of 13 hours. So your.

Yeah.

So you, you. That's a long time to keep the fuel just going in time after time, isn't it?

Yeah, it is. I, I was eating constantly from breakfast onwards as well because obviously we step. We set off at lunchtime, which isn't great because. Yeah, you then miss lunch straight away. So. Yeah, I was trying to get a lot in early on and I think that was good for me.

Yeah.

Later on when I wasn't eating so well.

Yeah, very good. And, and final question. How did you break it up mentally? I mean, 100 miles is. I mean I, I managed to break up the 50 reasonably well, but I mean, 100 miles is, is. Do you use any, you know, is there any specific ways you do that? Is it kind of when you're meeting your crew or how do you do that?

Yeah, mentally it was. So the first place I probably thought about was St Ives. No, not St Ives. Yeah, Mausole, because I knew it from there.

Yeah.

Yeah. So it would be Mausole and then. And then Land's End and then St Ives.

Really?

I met Damien at. Yeah, Zenna, isn't it? Before St Ives.

Yeah, that's right. And how. Damien hall has obviously got a huge wealth of racing experience himself. How is he as a crew member?

He was really good. Yeah, I was. He said he'd not done this sort of road crewing before, so he's been with me on the hill, you know, running alongside and I was, you know, he was asking all the right questions beforehand. And I try to be really organized because obviously the crew can't ask you that much. When you're actually on the move. So if you can get everything organized before so that they're not looking for stuff, if you ask for something, they can find it really quickly. But yeah, we had about an hour and a half before and really talking about it. But yeah, no, I was really impressed with the way he just popped up with these different foods and he kept sort of preempting the fact that I was going off one and I didn't see it again.

That's really good, isn't it? Yeah, we'd kind of bagged up with our crew. Like, this is what. This is the bag of stuff I want at Zenner and this is what I want there. And then, you know, occasionally you sort of like, right, okay, I need, I need to warn them about particularly Zena because they had to walk down from the, from the village. So there was like the odd WhatsApp message flying around just. But there was some very short audio message saying please bring this. But. But yeah, that's fantastic. I know, I thought it was, it was brilliant that he came down to crew for you. It's a lovely thing. Well, anyway, that is. It's been fantastic catching up, Nikki. It was, it was obviously a shame that we never crossed paths during the, during the weekend, but congratulations on winning the Arc of Attrition, being leading lady. Anyway. Yeah, you must be really happy with that and yeah, I look forward to seeing what happened. Well, actually, what is happening next? What do racing next?

I've just got the Cheviot Goat which was deferred and then cancelled because of the weather back in December. So yeah, I'm looking forward to that in March, really having a bit of a break now, doing some decorating stuff.

Excellent. Well, I wish you every success in that race and all of them to come and yeah, good luck with the decorating.

Thanks.

If you want to find out more about Nikki, the best place to go to is follow her on Instagram. She is just Nikki Spinks and I'm sure you'll agree there was loads to learn from that. Quite inspiring but also interesting how tough she found the Arc of attrition. That really put it in perspective for me. Anyway, back to the conversation with Warren, Claire and Kerry. So let's move on to kit. There is so much kit. I thought Iron man had a lot of kit, but I think the lists were even longer for Ultra running than they were on and there's no cycling involved. I don't know. I don't know quite how that works but. So Claire, what do you Kick things off with let's talk about Kit, but let's throw in technology because you've already alluded to your, your relationship with technology through this ultramarathon.

For anyone that knows me, they'll know that, like, everything that I have, technology wise, anything I touch, like, there's always something wrong with it. And actually it's not just me. Like, everyone goes, yeah, there is something wrong with that. So, like, going into this, my number one fear was like, I'm relatively good generally at knowing where I'm going, I would say. But my number one fear was like, because again, like, in terms of kind of going out running, I'll often go out and even if I do a long run, you know, I won't necessarily use maps or whatever. But actually, you know, I wanted to make sure that I knew where I was going. We're running into the dark that, you know, we'd kind of be able to follow a map on our watches. So that was my kind of number one fear. So when I went down to trial for those days, that was a massive learning point, like actually getting to know your technology because I think sometimes we use it at home. But actually, really being in a situation where you have to get to know it, I think is really important because there's so many things aren't there on all our new sort of tech. And I realized I had all the wrong settings to start off with, hence my conversation with you, Charlie, about what settings do you have your watch on? Because I'm being diverted off the coastal path to the main roads, which wasn't ideal. And then of course, like learning about things like battery life and things like that. And you know, Kerry and Warren, you'll like, know all about this because you, you've done, you know, your experience in ultras is just so vast. And they're the kind of things that, that, you know, in terms of experience and lots of experience of facing very long races that we don't come across very often. Um, so when I did, I had a. Had a nice technical failure, didn't I, on the sand dunes where my watch, just as it was just about to get dark, there was a little bit of sidewards rain, wasn't there? Just a little. And yeah, my watch turned itself off and I was without any sort of directions on sand jeans. And then luckily, having left you behind somewhere, Charlie, I then was very. Welcome to see you. Welcome to see you coming around the corner.

Well, we were joking about the fact because you also had an issue with your head torch later. On at another stage where you were bounding ahead of me. So I was attacking your technology in order to be able to keep up. But I think that the technology thing is a challenge. Kerry, what do you make of all of this?

I was just, I was just going to say that one of the things that I am quite strong on as a coach is that people learn to live without their technology, you know, so we can become slaves to it. And then as exactly you pointed out, it doesn't work. Now, that could be a real problem for some people. They lose that, you know, they throw all the toys out the bag because they, they're tired, you know, and all these other factors from having race coming and they, and they can't deal with it. Whereas if you, you know, you know how to use a map or you do, and most of these races will ask you to have a map, you, you can sort of sit in the moment and go, right, well, I've got a map on my phone. I will be able to follow this if you've got the route. So it's having backup options. And I also say in terms of. Some people become a bit slaves for heart rate and, and all these other, you know, measures that you've got on your phone when actually we can, we can, we can learn so much and know so much just by listening to our own bodies and what it's telling us. So I think, yeah, technology, fantastic. And when it works, it's amazing. Just like anything, isn't it? When it doesn't, it's pain in the ass and then you're left high and dry. Unless you learn to take all of the different cues that you've got and all of the different options and not, not allow that to. Wrong foot.

You.

I think, I think the things that I've learned about the tech was. And particularly watches because the first I never navigated from the watch until. Mainly because I didn't. The previous version of the, the Garmin I had didn't have the mapping on it. You could do it, you could do a route, but it had no map. So, yeah, that wasn't much used to follow. But like the week after the Ultra, I went for a run in London and because I'd set up the, the courses previously, I just really easily found a route on Strava, synced it to my watch and it was like, wow, this is so much better. Every time I've run in London before, I'm looking at my phone or trying to work from memory. Whereas running to a watch is really good. But like both Claire and I found that, you know, we tried to put the, put it on sort of low battery mode to try and extend the life and turn off this feature and that feature. But both of us got way less battery life than it told us we were going to get, didn't it? And that's why it caught you out. But, but Nikki had got a, a wrist based charger so she could actually charge it on on route on sections which seemed to make sense. But I think one of the brilliant things that you did Claire was bring your bike GPS didn't with you. So that, because the problem is you don't really want your phone out all the time either, do you? And, and also you don't really want a paper map out all the time. Whereas that little bike GPS again having that with the crew was just a really easy backup plan, wasn't it? Do you guys, I mean do you guys typically use these sort of GPS handheld devices when you've done ultras in the past or do you tend to just use watch phone and a paper map?

So I've actually got there behind me, I have laminated maps that I cut and prepared myself for an event in North Yorkshire that I loved called the Felsman which is still going, I've been several times. It's a 60, 60 mile, I think it is unmarked course across the fells and a lot of bits of it are on private land, only open for race day so you can't really wreck you all of it and you have to navigate it. That one's super duper old school but that I felt was, it was just really nice. You can be out there running and disconnected but you do need a cut down laminated map. And I was amazed to see that this race has got very soft this year. They're now giving you a map in advance so you don't have to cut down and prepare your own. Which I thought was part of the fun. So otherwise with a lot of the other options I've done, the courses are marked to some degree and I've never used anything other than map or compass as backup or a bit of course knowledge. I've. Other than running socially, I've not done it on a race on the watch but I do find because Erica and I, because we can work from anywhere a lot of the time we often exchange our home and go and live somewhere else for a bit and work from there. I'll often take the bike, having the computer and being able to do exactly what you said you did in London Charlie. You can turn up and ride like a local anywhere within, you know, as long as it takes to download a route. And that is a game changer compared to turning up and riding around the countryside and ending up on a motorway. Yeah, for sure.

I think that navigating on the watch thing was, was, was brilliant and I will use that a lot more going forward. I, I never really kind of grasped the importance of that until this race. But it, it certainly, it certainly improved the, my running experience because, you know, particularly through like the Dunes of Doom, you needed to be looking at it every, literally every 30 seconds, didn't you? Because it was so easy to take. It was like micro turns you were just looking at every time and it kind of kept us on the, on the straight and narrow there. What about how did you find the terrain, Claire? I know Kerry said after we finished the race, why on earth did you pick that as your first ultra? That was, that 50 miler was like a 7 equivalent of a 75 miler because of the train. But how did you find it, Claire?

Well, number one, I never do anything that's easy. So I always make life complicated and difficult. So there's a perfect example. But I love like, loved every moment of it. I thought it was really good. The terrain was like. Actually I love things like that because, I mean, I came into it off the back of a couple of ankle injuries, which wasn't ideal at all. So I was very tentatively running downhill off road on like rocks and things. And so it wasn't ideal. And I had a very reverse plan to what you probably should do in ultra running. And Kerry and Warren, you can tell me differently, but my understanding is that, well, knowing that people generally are walking uphill and running downhill, I was kind of doing the opposite, which had to work for me because I couldn't run downhill very well. But I loved it because it keeps your mind busy the whole time. I think I would just be so bored of doing some of these ultra distance races that are like round a track or really, really flat. I think it just, I think it keeps you like interested the whole time. And even those really long sections that we had with the boulders and the bog and everything else, that's. That to me was really great. That's what I really loved. Whereas the flat sort of sections through where we had to run through the town in hail and stuff, that was just get it done. It was, it was kind of boring.

I totally agree. I think that the terrain, that the toughness of the train just made it Much more enjoyable. What about you guys? Do you typically seek out interesting terrain, you know, and kind of iconic places to run? I know you're doing. You've done less of this in the last couple of years, Warren. But what's been your approach to picking races based on the terrain?

For me, it was always centered around the utmb and you know, that would always be the A race when I went there. So it was about building up on. On the. It had to be on the rough terrain. It was why I ended up finding the Fellsman. It was in April, it fit perfectly with the schedule. It doesn't count towards UTMB points, which means it's remained of a race very true to itself. It's not become something else. It's been going forever. But it was the only place I knew I could put enough suffering and difficulty into one night. That kind of whatever happened in the Alps, I'd probably have covered it off or worse. So the terrain was important, the location was important. I have often said that despite running so many ultras, I don't like running that much. I really like the adventures that running can take me on and that's what got me through it. If I was just running those distances on a treadmill, and I think all of us here would agree to say it wouldn't be it. It's what you see. Even though half the time, as you will now know, you're looking at your feet, you do get to see whether it's sunrises or sunsets or forests or those quiet moments on your own or those really weird, transcendental, slightly out of body moments, that's where the running takes you. And yes, the locations are really important and I think, I think that's something that everyone here will have experienced. And Kerry, maybe even more with things like the spine race, which takes you out of mind and body.

Yeah, it's. Well, you know, echo all of that. It's all about the adventure. And I mean, it sounds a bit silly. The harder the better. I mean, it's not just the harder the better, it's the more interesting the better. However, I also work and I look for things that will test my mental weakness to some degree. So anyway, and I have done a track race because I don't. I won't run on roads. I don't. I think I've done one road marathon and that was just because I wanted to be in that city and I like the city. But so I did do a track race because I just couldn't comprehend how someone could run around that for 24 hours and not, not lose their mind. And so, so I, I sort of seek out what will, what will we, you know, what, what I feel is my weak spot as well. But majority of the time, yeah, the spine ob winter is, is a challenge all onto itself and, and, and you know, across Scotland I, I wasn't completely convinced that I was going to enjoy that because I thought it was going to be all windmills and fairly boring but actually it was totally different and I was really pleased to see I found myself in some amazing scenery up there. So yeah, it's the adventure for sure. What, you know, what the sunsets, the sunrises, where you're going to go mentally, you know, nutritionally, what's going to do, what that's going to do to you.

Yeah, I think, you know, for me, for me it's, it's got, it's got, you know, when I'm thinking we'll come on to next races in a bit. But yeah, the terrain has got to be a significant factor in the environment. And you're absolutely right, you spend a lot of time looking at your feet. But I was, other than for my dark five miles, I was really trying to make an effort to keep looking up, taking photo. I didn't take many photos after the first 13 miles, but I did take a few. But it's just that, you know, remembering to look up and you know, admire the part of the world that you're in, wherever it is, I think is, is really important now.

Now.

So before we continue our conversation with the group, I got the opportunity to chat to Ferg, the organizer of the Ark 50 and Arc 100, just to find about the origin of the event, his highs and his lows of the event and a little bit about him as a highly accomplished ultra runner. So here is a small interview with Ferg. So welcome to the podcast, Ferg. I want you to tell me all about what was an amazing race on at the arc 50 and obviously arc of Attrition which is happening at the same time, the 100 mile version. So tell us all about where it came from, its history.

Really. I did a race many years ago called the Ultra Tour Southwest which was an endurance life event which kind of followed. It started at Porth Leven and ended at Newquay, other side of Newquay, called Watergate Bay. One of the first hundred milers I did and there was some pretty good runners in that one, Ian Sharman for one. But that kind of, that was a one off race. It never happened again and it was always there at the back of my mind that, you know, there is a hundred mile race in Cornwall to be done and it is starting it from Coverack and finishing at Portht Towan. It kind of. You don't have any river crossings or ferry crossings anywhere like that. And it's kind of sort of the only sort of two points where you don't have to cross estuaries or get berries. So that's kind of the route and cover act to Port tower is exactly 100 miles. So yeah, that's the sort of origins of it really.

And when was. When was the first one and did they. Did you do a 50 and 100 the first year or.

No? The first three, four years. I think it's that we've been doing it for seven years now. The first four years we didn't do the 50. So the 50 is a much later date. When we kind of got. We did some events with Zoe, who I know very well, who is actually a runner, who is the director at the Minack. And we did a little. We touched base about little 10 miler called the Tempest, which we did out at the Minack Theatre. It was a night head torch race and that went very well. And then we thought, well, 50 miles exactly from, give or take from the Minack to Porthtowan, why not do a 50? So we got permissions from Zoe for, you know, what is, you know, it's just an amazing venue to start a race.

It really is. I mean, for those people that don't know what the Minute Theatre is like, describe the setting of where we started.

It's just like a amphitheater carved out of the cliff in a rock. It's world sort of famous, really. It's just a natural amphitheater with the sea in the background. It's just, you know, it's just astounding where you can see Porthcurno beach to one side.

Yeah.

And the acoustics there are great. And the best part of it is you've got about 200, 300 steps to run up right from the start.

So the lactic is built up in.

Your legs before you even start the race. Your legs are pretty trashed.

It's the start of the race and then the end of the race. The stretch around Sally's Bottom and then the final stretch up into Porthtowan is like you start and end with. Absolutely. You can trash your legs right from the start and if you haven't, then you definitely trash them right at the end.

Yeah, absolutely brutal. The 50 actually takes in, you know, it takes in that lovely little section to Land's End and the brutal sections of some Ives and then you can, you know, it opens up a little bit with a sting in the tail. It's perfect, really.

I mean, it's a stretch of coastline I know really well, although there was some gaps in there that I hadn't done before. But, I mean, it is when you could remember to pick your head up. It is absolutely stunning. But you've got to keep your feet pretty firmly locked on the ground a lot of the time because, I mean, I went over on my ankle twice and I like to think I'm fairly good at the technical stuff, but it certainly keeps you on your toes. So it was a brilliant, brilliant event. Now, you mentioned your own running history within that. You're a keen ultra runner yourself. Just give us a little kind of potted history of the sort of races that you've done yourself elsewhere.

Well, I've been doing it for a long time. I've been running ultras for about 15 years. So I kind of got into it. I went the normal road running. I sort of played football for years, Got too old to play football, missed the social and, you know, sort of aspect of it all. Joined a local running club quickly did all the sort of local road races and city marathons, quickly got bored with road running and city marathons. Never worked out. I wasn't going to be ever very fast. So I sort of. I did a race called the Classic Quarter, which was the first ever ultra I did. And it was like an eye opener for me. It was a trail. Well, literally from the Lizard to land's end and 44 miles, just a game changer for me. Enjoyed it so much, you know, a little bit of hiking involved and not looking at your watch all the time. And I was converted then I never looked back. Went on to do, you know, a lot of the UK ultras. Grand Union Canal, Lakeland, West Highland Way, you know, the oner, not the big. Well, the big. All the big UK ultras. And then looked abroad, utmb. I done twice Ultra True, Madeira, Istria, Mozart, Transgrand, Transvolcania. The list is pretty long. It just goes on and on, really. Yeah. Around in Russia, golden over there, 100 over there, sort of all over the world. It's my passion. Really.

Fantastic.

Excellent.

Mixed travel with Ronning.

Well, it really shows in the event that you put on. So what was your highlight of this event this year?

I think the highlight of the event for me every year now is to start at the Minack. I think that's something really special down there. I think the atmosphere is great and the venue just sets it off. I think that is really the highlight for me is that, you know, obviously the hundred is underway, so a lot of the stresses of the hundred is kind of out the way and the mid actor seems to be fun. The start seems to be fun. So I think that's the highlight. Brilliant.

And was. I think I know the answer to this question, but I'm going to ask anyway. Was there a low point for this year's event?

Yes, unfortunately, the controversy over the company's runner, that was a real low point. It caused a few sleepless nights and obviously there was some social media attacks at us.

So tell us what happened around this.

Well, the Jamie, the guy who won the 50, who's an amazing athlete and broke the course record, he was reported to us that one of his crew had accompanied him through the dunes and unfortunately this guy had posted his run on Strava as accompanying Jamie through the dunes, Dunes of Doom, which is a quite a hard navigational part of the route. And the guy in question knew the dunes very well as it's his local training ground. We had a written complaint by email and several screenshots of his Strava sent to us, which is. Which we just couldn't ignore. It was obviously against the rules. When you've got that many people complaining of a race of this stature, which, you know, it is one of the big UK hundred mile races now, we couldn't ignore it. So whether the guy won it or was, you know, it was no concern. The rules fit, you know, the rules are for the people at the front of the pack as well as they are for the people at the back of the pack. And we had to act accordingly. Last thing we wanted to do, obviously, but it had to be done for the integrity of the race.

It was such a shame because I totally get the navigational point because the Dunes of doom are very challenging to work your way through, particularly if you're doing it in the dark like I was. But all partly it was kind of dusk when I was going through there. But, you know, all things aside, it was still a phenomenal time that he's run that.

Incredible. Yeah, incredible time.

Yeah, absolutely brilliant. And in terms of the hundred, was there, was there any. You know, because the hundred's been running longer. We had Nikki Spinks win for the ladies this year. Actually, the name escapes me of the guy that won it, but which was also a phenomenal time as well. Was that another. That was. That was a course record as well, wasn't it?

Yeah, that was Mark. His name's just come for me. But he was the guy that won Lakeland and he's. Yeah, phenomenal time. He's coming back next year actually because he thinks he can do better because speaking to him, listening to him on another podcast, he got quite sick in the last few miles. So he's hoping to come back and better that time. He thinks he can go faster. But the conditions were very good this year.

I was going to say that it was, it was kind. I shouldn't think we could have asked for much better.

It was almost like running in the summer down here. You know, the coast path was dry, there was no, you know, there was bits of mud, but nothing compared with what I have seen that event. You know, what I have seen it like there. So, yeah, you were very lucky.

I was. I remember chat when I was interviewing Anna Troup. She was. She said that she had three storms in a day when she was doing. I think. I'm not sure, I think she's done it several times, doesn't she? But when I think the time that she won it, she. She said she had three storms in a day. So I was thanking my lucky stars, particularly when you set up, you set us up in that safety video, warning us that the start could be apocalyptic. I was like, oh, God, this is filling me with dread.

But, yeah, 2016 was the worst year. That literally was a storm. It was raining for virtually the whole event, really heavy rain and wind for virtually from the start to the finish.

And that clearly changed the rank, changes it a lot.

That was the 78% DNF, right? Yeah.

Oh, really?

Wow.

And what, what roughly was it this year? Do you know what? Rough?

Yeah, I do. It was 49% DNF rate on the hundreds and about 17 on the 50.

Okay, okay.

Slightly less than usual on the 50, but slightly under the usual. We're usually over 50% but still 50, 49% was given the conditions was quite a lot. Yeah.

And looking back over all the years, is there one moment that stands out to you as the highlight of the arc of attrition or arc 50 so far?

Yeah.

The highlight, I think one of the most memorable was it was early days. I think it was the second one where a girl, a local girl, got in and finished by four seconds. And I can remember it was based at the Blue Bar in Port of Tower then. Not at the bar, you didn't make.

Them run up the hill.

No, no, it was easier then in the, it was a downhill finish but we can remember we were outside the blue bar, there was probably only a hundred people in it that year and we could see her head torch coming down the hill, Winterport Tower and looking at our watches and where she got the speed or the energy from but she literally sprinted down the finish and she got in by four seconds and it was, it was quite whole. Her family were there and they were in tears and she was in tears and she collapsed at the end and like the medical team had to get around her but she did it and it was just like the effort that she put in and it was just such a memorable moment. I'll never forget it.

Amazing, amazing. And it's lovely that that is, that moment is, you know, somebody just scraping in under the deadlines, not somebody winning it in a record time. And I think that's what's amazing about these ultramarathons. And one just final question that's just occurred to me. I was chatting to Claire earlier on. Both of us have been sleeping atrociously badly since we did this ultramarathon. Is this normal? Is totally knackered sleep and night sweats the norm for the ultra running world?

I don't have a problem sleeping, I have a problem sleeping in the run up to events. I never sleep well the night before. Putting on an event, organizing event or running an event, never sleep very well. So if I'm doing at least one night then I don't sleep the night before hardly at all. So it's almost two nights without sleep. And then if you're going into a two night event like utmb, which for me is two nights, then it's possibly three nights without no sleep. So yeah, that's when the hallucinations start for me. The second night of no sleep really. But to be honest I find organizing the events way more tiring than running them.

Really?

Yeah, I hadn't slept for this weekend. I didn't sleep. I slept on Saturday night at about 3am I went to bed and I hadn't slept since Wednesday, believe it or not.

Yeah.

Wow. Wow.

Yes. Okay. Yeah. Well that sums up how much effort and stress goes into organizing an event. I think it's, yeah, so much goes.

Through your mind, there's so much can go wrong. You, you literally, you know it's, it's the logistics on it are phenomenal. You know it's 200 crew involved and you know I was sat at the Minack waiting for the key holder to come and unlock at 7 o' clock on for the 50. And I was thinking it was two minutes past seven and I was looking at my watch and I was thinking, actually, what if they've overslept? You know, I've got all these buses with all these people gonna start a race and you're waiting on the key holder of the minak to come and just something like that, it just crosses your mind, you think, God, if I've overslept, this is just disaster.

Well, certainly from, from what I saw, it was an incredibly well run event. Event and, and all people out on the course, both the competitors, the crews and the. And the archangels were amazingly friendly and supportive and so I'm very keen to come back.

One question for you then. You've done the arc50, you've qualified. That is a qualifier for the hundreds of. So will we be seeing you on the hundred?

I think you might at some point. I think it might not be next year. I think I need to build up to some slightly flatter hundreds first. Particularly when chatting to Nikki about it and she's saying it's a blooming tough race and I'm like, if Nikki Spinks is telling me that's a tough race, then I need to man up and do I need. And I did say as I was doing the last climb up those steps of Sally's Bottom, that how on earth you get through a hundred of miles of this, I have no clue. And I, and I said, it's just not possible for me. And then of course by Monday I was like, yeah, I think I fancy the 100 miler.

Yes.

Yeah, it's. But I do need to do something flatter first. But yeah, no, I will be back. I'd love to do. And I think that now that I've got my head around the 50, I think the. I could see how you do the 100. It just have to be a little bit more. Have to be a bit more cautious.

Yeah. Take a little bit slower at the start and you haven't got those steps out of the minack on the hundred.

Funnily enough, I know Kavarak well because we went out kayaking once and we came back to find that the beach was entirely. It's a really shallow bay, isn't it? And the beach was entirely covered. And of course we'd left all of our bags and car keys and everything on the beach. Fortunately, somebody had seen the error of our ways and dragged it up onto the road. But anyway, Ferg it's been an absolute pleasure chatting to you. Congratulations again on organizing a fantastic race and, yeah, I look forward to coming back and taking on the 100 at some point.

My pleasure. Thank you very much for having me.

On and good luck with all your racing in the year ahead as well.

Thank you very much indeed.

If you want to find out more about the arc 50 or the arc of Attrition, the best places to go to are mudcrew.co.uk or their Facebook page, which is everything Mud Crew, you won't regret signing up. Now back to. The conversation with Claire, Warren and Kerry. Is really important. Now, Clare, we had a big debate about to take polls or not to take polls. And actually the advice we got slightly conflicted between Warren was like, I think I'd start with poles, and Kerry was like, I think I wouldn't start with poles. So what did you learn about running with poles, Claire?

I love them, absolutely love them. It's like a whole new world. Like when it was dark up that hill, I think, Warren, you were in the van behind me, weren't you? Because you were stopping to give Charlie some poles. I was just like, just a whole new element to it. And I think, actually, if I'm really honest, I think I could have used them throughout the rest of the race, but I. That's something definitely I'd need to practice with. And I did actually get really annoyed at times having them, even at the end of the race when I didn't really know how to hold them properly and use them. And I think if you've. If you've practiced with them and could put them away quickly when you need to. But. But because that course was like, when we got to the boulders and things, you just have to carry them. Like, you wouldn't. That would have really, you know, annoyed me. They would have got in the way. So I think for me, I think because I've got quite good upper body strength, that was an absolute lifesaver as well for me at the end. I absolutely loved it, but I would definitely need some, like, coaching and teaching how to use them and how to get the most out of them. I don't know. What about you? What was your kind of experience of using them?

Well, I thought I actually, you know, we obviously use them for the last five miles, which were also really the steepest of the. Of the climbs and they were an absolute godsend for that last five miles. I totally agree with that. And whether that be the coming down the steps that, you know, around Sally's Bottom that were brutally steep and it taking a bit of the pressure off your, off your knees and your feet or whether it be coming up the equally steep steps and you're using your upper body to kind of propel you. I definitely thought they were fantastic for the last five miles and I don't know that I wanted them before that point. You know, before, before that we'd had a quite a long stretch of not really too many climbs had we around the sort of back of, you know, we did the Tunes of Doom and then there was the, the cliffs along behind sort of God Reveal that were all fairly flat. I mean, there was a few ripples, but I don't think I would have wanted them there. I think they would have just. They would have just got in the way and I'd have ended up just carrying them or stowing them. But for that last five miles that, you know, because it was at the end and because it was steep, I thought they were brilliant Again. Warren and Kerry, what are your thoughts on, you know, when do you start using poles and when not? So let's start with Kerry. When would you use poles in a race and when would you not?

Gosh, it's really tricky. I think certainly Claire as well, if you're going into something with an injury, then poles could be a good thought because I think I may have said it to you at the time. Yeah.

That.

To have that as a backup because you're not sure how that's going to go. It could be the difference between finishing or not finishing if you, if you're sporting an injury. So polls could be useful then. I, I love the metronomic effect that a pole can give me. If I'm getting to the back end of 100 miler or a long race, they bringing the poles out and I start going, I hit a rhythm. It's. It is just like a metronome and I, and I will stick to that speed, whereas without them I could quite easily drop off again and, and sort of lose my rhythm and start sort of dragging myself along a bit. So I use poles when I started to get tired and I'm not, not running quite so much so that it's more, there's more walking and then they come into their own because they can. They keep me really true to a rhythm. I remember my first MDF on the long stage, which was about 90km and I sort of grew a little group of people around me because I was using poles and I had this sort of this tick, tick, tick as we were Going along and they, we all just, we sort of went that bit quicker because of that, because of the rhythms that the pole had given us. Certainly with poles on the mbs, my son's taken them as he had problems with his shins going up an incline. And so he will take them simply because he needs them for that, for that bit. But that sort of speaks back to the injury side of things. But I tend to use them not on short technical stuff because I find they get in the way then and you know, they get stuck in a boulder or something and you're trying to pull them out. So for me it would be more on sort of UTMB type climbs where you're going up for a long period of time on a graded track or on, on a sort of, not quite a technical piece. That's certainly when I would then bring them into play for sure. I don't know Warren, if you were still the same.

Yeah, well, I think the, I really like that description of it, the metronomic effect. You're absolutely right. There's, there's definitely something in there that I've never sort of identified as being that before. But my experience with them, again it comes back to the UTMB which for me it's the amount of climb versus the amount of distance. So the UTMB is a definite case. For poles, it's 10,000 meter percent, give or take over 100 miles. And also the regulations for the races where I've used poles have always been you either start with them and keep them to the finish or you don't have them. So I've used them throughout, so I've been very happy to run with them. It's never really been a problem because over the distance the benefit of the poles far outweighs any minor hassle which you don't even notice when, when you're running with them. However, there is a freedom to not having them. And I had in a great bit of misplanning, misinterpreted your course profile. So it's good that you didn't listen to me, Charlie, and take your polls out from the beginning because I thought you had. I somehow interpreted it as being give or take, like in terms of elevation and distance, a 50 mile UTMB, which it was a little less than that, which puts you in a more optional place. And you just had a beautiful opportunity to bring them in at the end, which I think, you know, Kerry had identified that as the right thing to do for me, the start and it seemed to work really well. But I Think in ultra running, unless it's changed a lot in the last couple of years where the races are, that you might really need poles. The regulations will also stipulate you start with them and use them or you don't have them. So if you are going to a race like that, definitely take them. But at the same time as Claire and I think you've noticed Charlie, spend a bit of time with them beforehand. So just. And certainly in the UTMB situation where you're either going up or you're going down, very little is flat. You know, maybe the first time you go to the race you might unpack them and put them away, but after you've done that twice, you never do it again. No, everyone keeps them in their hands the whole way through. Once they're in, they're in. But those are edge cases.

Yeah, I think. Yeah, you're absolutely right. I think you had a brief practice with them, Claire, didn't you? I had no practice with them and yeah, I definitely should have done and definitely would do for next time.

And yeah, I think that speaks to the thing that we always say, isn't it don't do anything for the first time on an ultra. But I think it was Beth Pascal actually, when I spoke to her and she was saying that, that when you're using poles correctly, your shoulders will hurt. You know, it is an upper body sort of workout and an exercise. And as you said there, Claire, you felt you've got the strong upper body strength that actually they could have come into their own for you, which they did towards the end.

So.

Yeah, but there's, you know, there's good YouTube videos on how to, how to use poles, you know, and how to put the hoop. You know, the hoop bits around your wrists so that you're using them as support rather than just having them flopping about in case. In case you drop it and it's just hanging around your wrist. You know, those, those loops are there for a reason.

Yeah, yeah, no, they were definitely. I really noticed actually just when we were coming up the road out of Portht Tower and towards that last, very last steep climb. So we were about 50 miles, 50ish miles in just. But we were just going up a relatively kind of average gradient. Were we on the road? But I was walking up that. But at a re. A far faster walking pace than I'd walked any of the rest of the race because of the polls. They were propelling me, you know, you were running, Claire. I was walking. And yet you weren't really gaining any distance on me at that point because I think the poles are kind of propelling me along. But so I'm going to. Claire, I'm going to ask you the same question that Ferg asked me, which was he said that now that we've done the 50 miler, we've qualified to enter the hundred miler. Will you be entering the 100 mile arc of attrition at some point and. Or what are your.

What.

You know, now that you've got a taste for ultramarathons, what's next?

The problem is, as my coach said to me, the fire's now been lit, hasn't it? So I think that there will be something. What that is, I don't know. I think, you know, going along the lines of both Warren and Kerry. You saying it's about adventure? Absolutely. For me is any this, you know, ultra running ultimately is not my sport. I still, I'm glad to kind of get back to triathlon and I love the real racing aspect of triathlon, but I do love the adventure aspect and that was amazing adventure and also the team part of it. Like just having you guys is the most amazing team. And running with you, Charlie, and having somebody to be there was just amazing experience. So I think the answer is yes, I would definitely do one. As you've probably now realized, it's not going to be an easy one. So it would have to be something that absolutely tests me to the nth degree and failure is never an option. So that's also going to be difficult. How about you?

Well, I like the sound. I definitely want to do the arc of attrition, the 100 miler of what we did. But I'm not going to do that next for two reasons. One is I need to build up to that. I think, you know, I realized as we were going up that last climb into Portht Tower that, God, if I'd had another 50 miles to do at that point on of that terrain, that would have been very, very tough. But I would like to go back and do it. But the other reason is actually it's going to continually clash with my cycling trip with my mates. So I'm going to do the cycling trip next year. But so I, I definitely want to do 100 mile. I've definitely got an appetite for that. That and I think I've probably, probably got to pick a relatively kind of nice rolling 100 miler to start with. The adventure definitely is the thing that appeals to me. So I love the idea of the Felman that you just Described Warren, I think that sounds. That's just heading straight onto the bucket list that sounds, that sounds really good Are things like the Lakeland 50. I mean the Lakeland 100 would be amazing but something like that. And then I know Kerry, when we were talking in the pub on the Sunday afterwards, you mentioned about the one that finished at Everest Base Base Camp. That is the sort of thing that I think a multi day like that would be absolutely incredible. So it's definitely lit a fire that I want to do more of these things. I just haven't quite worked out what's next. Kerry, what's. I know, tell us what. I know you're doing MDS again but beyond that what's. Have you got any races that you really want to do?

Well, I've got races that I am doing and it's all falling into place quite nicely so I have got the MDS which the focus of that is to run with my son which is going to be an amazing experience. Then I've got the Kennet and Avon Canal race which is a flat 140, 45 mile and it's flat so potentially quite dull. But what I love is the fact that I'm running from one side to the other so we start in Little Venice and then end up in Bristol so I'm looking forward to that. I've got the Ring of Fire ultra which is running around the outside of anglesey which is 135miler and a bit like the Arc. It's very up and down, lots of beach but I just love being bound to see so I'm excited about that. I'm crewing on the box. Oh it is, it is a. I can speak to you about that one because. Well, I'll be able to tell you a little bit more when I've done it in August but it does look fantastic and then crewing someone's 24 hour on the Bob so that's fun. And then I'm back to the Spine. The Winter Spine is back on next year. I'm really excited. So all of it is moving in the right direction. It's all going towards getting me going long again to the spine.

It is inspirational to listen to you just reel off these hundred plus mile races that I'm going to do. This one and this one, this one it's like wow Warren, I know you haven't done any ultras for a while but I'm going to put you on the spot. Do you think you'll get back to it?

Yeah, I do I do. I mean things go in cycles and as you guys will be able to see on the video, there is a squat rack behind me because space is at a premium in London and my smear room has been sacrificed. The reason for this is I'd always thought that strength training was something I could do later and I was completely focused on ultras and then Ironman and then distance bike events and then mixing them up. But I realized about 18 months ago that later for strength was now it was actually starting to impact me negatively my overall. It wasn't that my performance was going down particularly my resilience was starting to taper off and so I got into it and it was so eye wateringly dull to start with because your only reward for lifting the thing up and putting it down again is to make it heavier and lift it up and put it down again. It's not like your reward for sitting for three hours on the Turbo is having an amazing ride in the countryside with your mates at the weekend or whatever it may be. So I had to get into the process and I've found it really enjoyable. But I'm also feeling really good benefits. It feels like a really good part of the long term fitness and resilience puzzle. All of which means I would like to put it back into some more endurance events. And the one that is on my bucket list is a return to my favorite race of all time which is the Laveredo Ultra Trail in the Dolomites in Italy. It is perhaps the only ultramarathon to make the UTMB look a bit, bit boring and unspectacular in terms of its scenery. It's a little shorter, 120k with a similar ratio of percent so it's a little more manageable. I've run 24 hours there before which has been a PB for me and I have a bucket list target of 20 so that's a bit of a longer build up.

I'm sensing another one's going on the bucket list here. That sounds amazing. However, in the meantime I'd be more than happy to crew for you when you go back to that. And likewise Kerry, if you ever need an inexperienced crew then I'd be very happy to volunteer as that because it was, I mean, I think, in summary, I think it was an amazing weekend. I really enjoyed it was, you know, it was a privilege to run with you Claire and it was wonderful to experience that ultra race as our first kind of official, you know, organized ultras together. We didn't know whether we Were gonna. We'd never run together before, have we? So we had no idea whether we were going to be able to keep up with one or another. And it turns out that, yeah, you were. I was quicker on the descents and technical, you were quick on the ascents and the, and the, and the flats. But ultimately we hit, we started together, we hit every crew station together and we finished together. So that was absolutely brilliant. And then we had these amazing crew to, you know, with all the wealth of experience on nutrition from Warren and Erica for Kerry and James is like wealth of experience in terms of ultra running. And just the, just the experience you brought to that just made it an absolute pleasure. I know Claire and I were talking about afterwards just going, you know what, having that crew there before and during it made such a difference that we, you know, we could, we could get on and enjoy it because we felt like we were in safe hands. So it was a wonderful weekend and I would, you know, I'm itching to recreate it in one way or another, but anybody else want to just kind of throw anything out there for our. From our weekend at the Ark?

Kerry?

Yeah, I'd very much like to say that it was, it was just brilliant from beginning to end. And even though, you know, we weren't competing, I think I took so much away from watching you guys tackling it and, and you did a sensational job. I mean, you wouldn't have known that you had never run Ultras before. It, you know, it was seamless. You were always in good humor. You know, you came into us at aid stations and you, you know, it was quick, you know, there was no messing about. You never once sat down, you came in, you got what you needed. We said what we had to say. Sorry, but the energy was so positive and that's not always the case on Ultras. And James and I came home and we just felt like we'd been on a mini break. I mean, it was just. It had been a holiday that we wouldn't have missed for anything. We were on such a bars with such a high. So thank you to all of you for allowing us to do it. Putting yourselves in the hot seat.

Warren, go for it.

Yeah, I would just echo that. But certainly from previous crewing experiences, I was more than prepared to be dealing with some very surly, uncommunicative, grumpy people in some freezing cold, wind, sweat, wet, dark corner of Cornwall at several points during the night. And that would have been absolutely fine. But it was testament to your planning and execution and I know, Charlie, you said you went into some dark places early on. Well, certainly we didn't see those. And you know, it is a little thing for people. If you're in a dark space in an endurance event, then if you can get someone to take a snap of you, look back at it 24 hours later, you very rarely look as bad as you felt. It doesn't take away from that inner feeling. You pulled yourself out of that so well. And yeah, it was really good to watch. You guys were like a mini case study for Erica and I and other things we look at for 33 fuel in terms of whether it's product development or nutrition guides or various other things. But also it was just your planning and your race execution was you had it set out in advance and you executed it and it was just a real pleasure to see and be a part of. And, you know, thank you for keeping it on time because we're quite knackered at the end and again, we're quite prepared to be out there four hours longer than we thought we were. And we weren't, with all due respect.

We were quite knackered at the end as well. Claire, how did you. What was the weekend like for you?

It's amazing. It was really, really good fun. Yeah. And just, just a big learning experience for me as well. And I love learning. So for me, I've taken so much away from it in terms of knowledge and just gaining more knowledge and gaining. Gaining more kind of friends in the world of Ultra as well. And you know, your experience to me was just fantastic. And listening to both of you speak, you know, that was amazing to have that support. So that for me was just, yeah, brilliant.

Really good.

And the one final thing I'll say to wrap up this episode is that, yes, we were really quick in and out, the crew stops and the one feed station, we were really quick in and out. I have to admit, I would have hung around a lot longer had it not been seeing Claire bolt off every time. I nearly didn't even get a toilet stopper at the feed station. Hang on, I've just got to go to the point, for goodness sake. Like off, like proper, proper mission.

My salt and vinegar chip sticks. I was off.

Yeah, excellent. Well, it's been great doing a debrief with you guys and I can't wait to. To re. Rekindle another weekend around an Ultra of some description with you all. So, yeah, so thank you, thank you, Warren, for all of your. And all of the 33 fuel support that you've given. Thanks Kerry for your perpetual motion coaching and all of that support. And thank you Claire for all the fourth discipline nutritional wisdom that you've passed to me through the Waitrose shop and all of the stuff around it. So yeah, no, it really was fantastic. And for everybody else, sign yourself up for an ultra or something similar because it really was brilliant and in the meantime, keep on training. I'm sure you'll agree there was a lot of amazing advice and strategies within that. But if you want to find out more about 33 fuel, the best place places to go to are 33fuel.com or on Instagram. They're 33 fuel. I really love their protein powder, their 33 greens I had in the lead up to post race, had their cheer gels during the race and I also had both their energy bars and protein bars. All fantastic products. They've very kindly given us a discount code of ARC33, that's capital letters ARC33. They'll give you a discount. And they've also given us a ultramarathon nutrition guide. I'll put a link in the show notes for that. If you want to find out more about Kerry Sutton and perpetual Motion coaching, the best places to go to are perpetualmotioncoaching.com and also her Instagram page, Perpetual Motion Coaching. And Kerry's very kindly said that she'll give anybody a free initial consultation to kind of help them understand how her ultra running coaching can help them. And then if you want to find out more about Claire Fudge and fourth new fourth discipline, even fourth discipline.com is the best place to go. That's the number four. And also on Instagram there is they are the fourth discipline. And Claire will just help you with creating a practical guide to sports nutrition. She's got a wealth of resources on there, including a couple of online courses which I've been through and were really helpful for understanding the best approach to sports nutrition. So I hope you've taken loads from that episode. I hope you've enjoyed a slightly different version of the Tribathlon podcast. If you have enjoyed it, please check out the interviews that I've done with Claire, Kerry and Warren and Nikki individually. And of course we've got so many other amazing interviews on the Tri Bathlon list, whether that be Damien hall, whether that be Louise Minchin. There's loads. So check out the the website and if you enjoyed it, review it, share it, spread the good word. That's the best way that we can reach other people. And in the meantime keep on training. If you've enjoyed this triathlon podcast, please do go to Apple Podcasts and rate it and review it. It massively helps us to deliver a better podcast. It helps people find it as well. So yeah, go to Apple Podcasts, give us some feedback, give us a rating and a review, and please share it with your friends. Because ultimately that's what allows us to us to keep delivering more and more of these podcasts. And don't forget to download the tribathlon app for more amazing podcasts, but also to help you train, compete, and to build your tribe.