The Double Decker with Claire Smith

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Tribathlon podcast finding out how ordinary people do extraordinary things.

Don't make any decisions. If you think, you know, I want to give up, don't make that decision right there and then because you feel bad. Get moving, you'll feel better.

That was Claire Smith, or Brutal Claire as she's known. And this episode is the double decker. When it comes to endurance sport. For most people, an Ironman is a pretty big challenge. So imagine trying to do 20 times that distance. So that's a 48 mile swim, a 2,240 mile bike ride, followed by a 520 mile run. So anyone that does that has got to have a pretty brutal mindset. And Claire Smith also has it in her name too, because her nickname is Brutal Claire. But not only does Brutal Clare compete in brutal endurance events, she also organizes them. So in this episode I got the opportunity to chat to Clare about how and why she does such grueling and difficult events. Where did the name Brutal Clare come from? Seems quite apparent actually. But you know, where did it come from? How did she get into doing these incredible events and how she actually achieves them, how she finishes doing events that take this long. So I know you're going to enjoy the chat with Brutal Claire. This podcast is brought to you by Brits Superfood. Now, I've been a big advocate of wheatgrass for many years, but I only in the last year or so switched to having fresh wheatgrass that's then frozen as opposed to the powdered stuff. And I found that to improve my health even more. Now I've been a big advocate of wheatgrass because I know it's kept me fit and healthy. Because when I've had spells where I've stopped taking it, I've started picking up the bugs and colds and things like that again, which I never seem to get when I'm taking wheatgrass. I know it improves my immune system, my health, but also it gives me more energy and faster recovery. So loads of health benefits of taking wheatgrass. But Brits is field grown, organic, freshly frozen, and they also do a load of amazing juices as well so that you can combine the two, like the beetroot ones, so you can have your nitrates before or after an event. You can find out more@britsuperfoods.co.uk but at the end of this podcast, I'm going to give you a discount code or a referral code that will give you loads of benefits. So a discount, some free products, some free shipping, but they also have which is worth just mentioning here. 110% 30 day money back guarantee. So if you're not feeling better having taken this for 30 days, they'll give you your money back and an extra 10%, which is absolutely bonkers. But that's how confident they are on the health benefits that you will see as a result of taking wheatgrass just for 30 days. So anyway, hang on to the end of this podcast and I'll give you a great discount code. This podcast is also brought to you by the tribathlon app. Now, have you ever been away and thought, wouldn't it be cool to have somebody local that could show me the best cycling route, the best trail run, take me on the best wild swimming, and also show me where to stop for a coffee I afterwards or during it. Because when you've got the local knowledge, you can actually find the best route, have the best experience and just enjoy the new surroundings better. So tribeathlon helps you find people to train with, whether that's your permanent training tribe or whether it's just a temporary group of people because you're visiting a new part of the world. So if you go to trimathlon.com download the app and and you can help your build your tribe of training buddies and also to find your next event. So go to tribathlon.com, download the app and build your tribe. So, Claire, I'm really excited to get you on the tribathlon podcast. Thank you so much for taking time out of what seems seems to be an incredibly busy schedule of slightly crazy activities. But yeah, really looking forward to chatting to you. So to kick things off for those people that don't know anything about you or that much about you, do you want to tell us your story? Tell us a little bit about why you've ended up with the name Brutal Clare and the events that have kind of led you to get to where you are today.

Okay, the name Brutal Claire sounds awful. Sounds a bit dodgy, doesn't it? But I was basically my friend who wasn't my friend before he did my event. Matthew. He actually called me Brutal Claire because he won the first ever Brutal Extreme Triathlon, the double version of it. And we became friends after that. From then on, he just called me Brutal Clare and it seemed to stick. And at that point everyone just called me Brutal Claire. And that's, that's basically where that comes from. So, yeah, I mean, I'm from a graphic design background, did that from school all the way up through to, you know, mid-30s, whatever. And I Got to a point where I was just a bit fed up with it. Bit sick of being in the office all the time. Wanted something different. I'd started triathlon reluctantly and sort of accidentally. I basically was a marathon runner and overheard a runner in my club saying about Ironman and how hard it was, and I thought, excellent. That's. That's the one. That's what I want to do. Didn't realize it was a triathlon. Thought it was one of sort of tough mudder type runs. But of course, once I'd said, oh yeah, I'm going to do an Ironman, that was it. God, it's a triathlon. And then I realized it wasn't just a triathlon, it was a really long triathlon, really hard. And I hadn't. I couldn't swim at that point. And, you know, I hadn't been on a bike for years, so that was difficult. So basically I trained for the Ironman.

Which was this Iron man, it was Sherborne.

So that was before Bolton. That was like years and years ago, 2007. So I just. I did a half before that and then I went straight into the full. Never one for, you know, messing about with sprints or any of that nonsense. I mean, why would you do that? No joking. And after the full, I did the first ever UK Double Ironman at the time, which was run by Enduroman, and I did okay with that. And then from that point onwards, I started thinking, why are all the courses on sort of the ultra courses on such sort of flat, flat routes, you know, where's all the good stuff? And so I basically started looking into running a double Ironman, you know, around sort of, you know, Snowdonia and stuff. And that's where the brutal basically came from. And brutal events just basically stemmed from running events. You know, I just thought, this is brilliant, you know, I'm gonna start putting on more events on terrain like, you know, the Brecon Beacons and on the coastal path, where it's anything that's just really, really hard. Basically that's where my events end up.

You do like to make life difficult for yourself, don't you? So let's just start with. So you went on, you did your first Ironman. What was your first Ironman time, roughly?

Actually, it wasn't too bad. It was like 14 hours and 30 minutes or something. Me, that's quite good because I'm a real plodder. So that's why Ultra suits me because I'm not. I'm not a fast athlete at All. So yeah, that was not too bad.

And then. And then. So you went on to do a double Ironman. So that's. So I'm right in saying that would be just a 4.8 mile swim and it just. All the way straight through.

Yeah.

So how long did a double take you then?

I think that took me about 32 hours. I'm really bad at remembering my times. So yeah, I think it was around that.

And then. And then you. What was. What was kind of your next big challenge after that? So it was the, it was the kind of hilly version of a double, was it?

Yes, that's the event that I set up. I did recce it many times. I didn't actually do it like as the event because obviously I was always organizing it. So that's the events that I, you know, basically started organizing from, you know, a work perspective, if you like. My own personal events at that point were kind of on a bit of a back burner because I was setting the business up and it took all my time running it as well as having another full time job as well, so.

And it would seem that a double Ironman wasn't sufficient, was it? So tell me where you went after that.

So the next thing I did do actually was this, a solo challenge in Lanzarote. And that was. I don't know if you've heard of the Arch Tour Arc where you basically run from London to Dover, swim the English Channel and then cycle from Calais to Paris. I did a half version of that in Lanzarote. So that basically involved a 45 mile run around sort of like part of the island and then a 12 mile swim and then a 90 mile bike up to the Mirador and back. And that was pretty hard. That was like. Yeah, so that was sort of like training for the Archdioc which didn't actually happen at that point. And then like I say, I didn't do a great deal for a few years cause I was concentrating on the business and my kids were a bit younger. And then I started getting into kind of like crazyish events. I started looking at the DECA, which is 10 Ironman. There's two different ways you can do it. You can either do it one Ironman a day or you can do it in the continuous format. Now I've tried the one Ironman a day and quite a few times and I failed quite a few times.

How far did you get through them when you.

Oh, the furthest I've ever got through is day seven. And that was just. That was Deckerman USA and last year, a year before, I think it was, and it was like the worst weather in a hundred years. They had everything from like torrential rain. The temperature dropped so much they had to take us out the lake in the end because it got so cold. The. They started putting us in swimming pools and I think by day eight, it was snowing at one point. It was so bizarre. I'm kind of known for, wherever I go, I take awful weather with me. So I'm kind of used to it. But I'm like, sorry everyone. So I'm kind of. Yeah. So that was the day seven was the furthest I've ever got with the one a day. It's tricky if you're a slower athlete, the one a day format, because you run out of time at the end of each day and the less time you have to recover, the harder. Yeah, everything just starts to crumble. So I am capable of doing it and I think if New Orleans weather hadn't been so shocking, everyone said I would have been able to do it. So ultimately I will do it at some point. It's just the timing's got to be right for that particular one for me. But I have completed the continuous deca, which is where you do all of the swim, all of the biking, all of the running, one half.

And is that. And is that up? Is it just, you know, once the clock starts, it's just one continuous clock as opposed.

Yeah.

So how, how does that work from a, you know, so what's that to 10, 10. So 24 mile swim.

Yes.

And then a 11, 20 mile bike and then a 260 mile run. So how do you. Well, I'm going to cut, I'm going to drill into the detail of that a bit more because you. Am I right in saying you then went on and did a double decker?

Yeah, that was last year.

There's no point in drilling into just the 10 times 9 man. Seems insignificant when you start talking about that.

Yeah, the deca was really hard. I didn't kind of think, oh, this is rubbish. I don't think I'm going to do a double after this. That wasn't in the, in the plan.

But 10 times Ironman distance. So typically, roughly how long did that take you?

Just under 12 days.

12 days. And how much sleep are you getting each day over those 12 days?

4 hours.

4 hours sleep a day. And then, I mean, that is quite incredible, isn't it? And were you doing this on sort of a relatively small circuit that you're Kind of looping around.

Most of the Ultravas are on smaller circuits in parks and stuff, closed roads because people tend to fall asleep and it's quite dangerous from, you know, I mean my event, my Daki UK actually is on an open road but we have them all with GPS trackers and things like that to make sure we can kind of keep an eye on them. And the roads are very quiet. But the one that I did was in Switzerland and that's. Yeah, I mean there's a little bit of traffic, you do have to be aware of it, but it's mainly closed. The same with Deckerman and things like that. So they tend to be quite a small like 5 to 10 mile bike route, probably around 5 miles is the average and then the run route can be like one to two miles. And so it is quite monotonous I'd say.

Does that, that sounds like an even kind of greater extreme of torture. But do you find that when you're doing that sort of, I mean like when you're, when you're doing a single Ironman, it's lovely to be out sort of cycling through the Italian vineyards or up, you know, through the little sort of fort towns and that sort of stuff. But you're on a whole different, you're on a whole different game at 10 or 20 times. Do you find it, it helps you being on a shorter route or is it a significant hindrance?

It definitely helps. I mean you can plan one, you can stop when you really need to and with harder like point to point stuff, you know, if you really need to sleep, you have to sleep anywhere and that means hedgerows and things like that, which I've done on different events and that's okay. But ultimately with these very long events, you know, you want to finish and it's great to be able to think, okay look, I'm really exhausted or something's going wrong here, I need this, I need that five miles and you can stop or a couple of miles up the road you can stop and you can pull in but that does sometimes mean you stop a bit too much as well on the other side of it. So yeah, it does work. It is nice to have and especially if you've got crew there, people, you know, and food and stuff like that and toilet facilities. It is nice to have that.

Yeah, yeah, it's more practical I suppose. And you're not really there for the scenery. I suspect at that point you're absolutely not.

And people say, oh, it's so boring. It's like, well do you know what? We're not actually there to, you know, we're there to, to tick off the miles, to get the distance done to achieve that goal. You're not there looking for the scenery. I mean Mexico is and Switzerland both actually. They're both lovely places where the races are. So you do enjoy it but sometimes you are a bit like just, you know, you're looking at the ground and trying not to cry.

So yeah, I can believe that. So what came after the Decca?

The Deca continues. I did, I did a one a day Quinn actually which in Switzerland as like training to try and get the one a day thing, you know, get better at it and that worked. I did right with that one actually and I was self supported again. So I literally just drove from my house in Christchurch to Switzerland in my van and then did it and slept in my van and then, you know, I think I was second as well and then came back and I was like amazing. Yeah. So I was like, I definitely got this, I've nailed this Decker thing. It's like, come on, that's incredible.

And then, and then was the Double Decker. Sort of. Did that follow straight after that?

Yeah, that was the following year basically. Yeah.

And how much worse is a Double Decker than a deca?

Do you know what it's like when people say when you've got one kid and you think, oh just another kid won't make any difference. When you've got like one cat you think I wanna. It was like that and you think oh yeah, double Decker. So me and the girls, because there's like a group of us that kind of do it all from like America and Canada and stuff, we all like, we meet once a year in various random locations and do stupid things and we were all like, it should just be like the Decca in Switzerland and we all kind of planned our event timings on that and it just wasn't the swim, the swim because it was in a pool and I don't think the water quality had been checked or I don't know, I think chlorine wise they just like dumped a load in and just gone. Yeah, that'll be fine. It literally we had chlorine burns and your mouth was numb, your tongue was numb. Everybody was coughing. I had to stop like mid lane and hold onto the lane rope and just choke. And I'm asthmatic as well so it really messed everybody up. People were just sneezing and coughing continually. It took us days and days to get over the chlorine poisoning. I think it was pretty horrendous and I was out quite quickly with the swim actually. So I was pretty pleased to go. I was just like, I'm not messing around, I'm out of this pool. It was not good. So that had a real knock on effect to the bike and even just.

Can I just stop you? How long does a 48 mile swim take?

You can ask me that.

Sorry, I just. I know you don't want me to ask about.

You know, I've forgotten. I'm so bad with times and everything. My brain was probably just from like all the things I do. It's really awful. I will. I can find you the times actually because I've got them written on my wall. But yeah, I started Friday night and I was finished by like Sunday morning. Wow. There's two nights. So yeah, we started like 10 o' clock at night and then we went through that night and yeah, all of Saturday, Saturday night, Sunday, it was about Sunday lunchtime I think I finished and it's just. That was the most surreal thing I've ever done. That was very peculiar.

That swim in a pool with too much chlorine that just.

And also there was people in the pool as well. So we had it to ourselves for a little while and then they just basically. I mean it's a public pool so they had to kind of work around things but they had swimming lessons and they would put like 30 people in a lane next to you. You've been swimming for like 20 hours.

Or something and you're swimming through the night.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I can't imagine there's many of the general public there at 4 o' clock in the morning.

You look forward to the night almost. But it was like the daytimes they would. They would literally just throw in so many people and I was always in the lane next to where they were. So I was like. You'd just be kicked like continually.

This is exactly what you need at the start of a deck a double decker, isn't it?

I was like so keen to get out of that pool as quickly as possible.

Yeah, I'm not surprised. And so. Yeah, and then, and then. So carry on. You get out of the pool.

It had such a knock on effect. Everybody felt absolutely shocking. You could hear everybody coughing and spluttering for days and days afterwards and we all had like massive burns on our necks and I couldn't move my neck for days because of the sores. So it did have a massive effect on how we felt physically going into it. So the deca. I Would have a very sort of strict routine, if you like. So I would have. I would go to bed at 10 and I would get up at 2 in the morning and that was my routine. So no matter what I was on, be it the bike or the swim section, I was having that four hour block of sleep. Getting up and then cracking on with my day with the Mexican one. I just need to sleep. Sometimes I'd be like, fine. And then all of a sudden I'd be dropping off and so I'd have to pull in on my next lap and just go into my tent and sleep for like 10, 20 minutes and then get up and start again. So that routine that I craved and that worked so well went out the window. And everybody had the same thing I.

Was going to say, because I wasn't sure whether that could be a jet lag thing, but if everybody was having the same thing.

Yeah, we'd been there a few days anyway by that point. So, no, it wasn't a jet. I mean, it could have probably did. And there's altitude as well. With Mexico. We don't. We didn't sort of take that into account. I had shock and headaches before I started. So, yeah, I didn't go into it feeling great, I've got to be honest. But the pool, definitely with the amount of chemicals it was. Yeah, I mean, I swam one lap and I swam back and I said to my crew guy, my mouth is numb. He was like, okay. So, yeah, we knew we were in for an interesting swim.

Yeah, that's incredible. And again, sorry to ask, but I've got to ask, how long does a Double Decker take, roughly?

I think it was just under 28 days.

28 days.

I went back in September and I came back in November. So I missed a whole season. That was one of the weirdest things, actually. I came back and I missed autumn. So I left in the summer and I came back and it was winter and it absolutely blew my mind, my brain. I was completely.

And particularly being in Mexico. I dare say it was quite a shock coming back.

It was lovely. I mean, they did obviously, because I was there. They had some freak storms like the camp area and just. Yeah, that was really bad. They were like, we've never had these before. And I'm like, sorry.

And what came after the Double Decker?

The Double Decker, the next thing, well, literally that I've just finished is the joggle, so. And that was an unsupported run from John O Groats to Land's End.

And how long did that take you.

That took me 23 days and eight hours.

And so I'm sorry, without being able to do the maths quickly, roughly how many, how many miles is that a day?

It averaged out about 37 miles a day.

37 miles a day. Wow. Fantastic. And again, are you. I mean, is that like kind of a very slow 37 miles or are you trying to get that done as quickly as possible?

It really varied. Again, I mean, I went into it a little bit unprepared. It was a bit of an impulsive decision to do it, to be fair. So I hadn't really trained massively, but I did think again, I would. I sort of based it on the double decker, the deca that I've done, where I've managed to run a double marathon every day. And I thought I'd be able to do that, but I definitely couldn't. I did it on the first day, but when I think I massively underestimated the self supported aspect of it, having to do everything yourself. And also just the routes being so different every day and so difficult. You know, very hilly in Scotland and I had a lot of problems with traffic. Very, very busy roads. And because I had, I was actually pushing like a buggy, like a baby jogger with everything in that made route planning a little bit more challenging as well, so. And then on top of that, I was wild camping. So most of the time I did have the odd hotel room, especially towards, like going further on down the UK because it became harder to camp, because in Scotland you can just camp wherever and it was brilliant. But the further I went down the uk, the harder that became. Yeah, just like sneaking into people's fields. They don't like that. They don't like that. I understand why you can do what you like as long as you don't do anything bad. You can literally do what you want. But the UK is not so good at that. So. Yeah. So where I thought I'd be able to knock out 50 miles a day, I couldn't. I was just. Yeah, it's 40 seemed to be. That's what I aimed for. Every day is 14. Wow.

And I'm just going to ask fairly early on. Normally I'd wait for longer for this question, but just why, why, why, why these incredibly difficult long events?

I'm quite an extreme person, so I do like to push myself. I have had issues in the past with like addiction, stuff like when I was younger, and I do find that what I do now is a healthier kind of way of dealing with that sort of thing. Yeah, Like I said, I am quite an extreme person. I am very motivated, I'm very driven. So I guess that's, you know, that's why I do it.

Endurance sport is very good for people that have an addictive personality, isn't it? I would say I have a very addictive personality. And yeah, it's good that the addiction is channeled into something that is good for me physically and mentally as opposed to something that perhaps isn't, but. So did you get into this stuff to kind of help you with. With previous kind of issues?

I mean, I started. I literally started running with my daughter, who's 24 now was born. And that was just more of a kind of initially a bit of a weight loss thing. But then I found out that it made me feel better, made me feel more balanced and happier about myself. And at the time I was struggling with a lot of issues and stuff and I'd had an abusive marriage and I was having eating problems and drinking too much. So it was like I had some real things going on as a single parent. It was difficult. Times were difficult. So I, you know, this running thing, I didn't keep it up at that point, which is unfortunate, but I. It clicked that, you know, this felt good. And I did a half marathon and I was like, you know, the sense of achievement and it, you know, I felt that was really good. But it wasn't until my son was born. And that was like six years later I started properly running and I got into a little group and met a few friends and started doing marathons. And that made me feel, you know, good about myself. So I started instead of where I was before, like, really controlling my calories and constantly, like, just being really horrible to myself, basically starving myself and just, you know, struggling. The running made me look after myself more. It made me take better care of myself. It made me like myself more. That sounds a bit odd, but, you know, I complete a marathon, I feel good about myself. So all of that sort of stuff started really helping with my mental health, I guess.

Fantastic. I mean, it is such a. You know, I heard it said recently that running is a. Is just a more active form of meditation. And it hadn't really occurred to me until I heard that that it. How meditative it is and how good for us and it is. So, yeah, yeah, no, I've found it to be very similar. So of all these events, all of these incredible events that you've done, brutal events that you've done, probably better way of describing Them, which has been your favorite so far.

That's tricky. I mean, the jogger was crazy. Maybe the joggle, I think, because that's, that really kind of ticks a lot of boxes for me because I really wanted to get into more adventure type of racing more. Kind of like just getting out there and going like point to point, literally. And this was my first taste of it and I definitely want more. I mean, I love the wild camping aspect of it. I liked having problems along the way and having to sort them out. I mean, I definitely want to do, you know, once, you know, we're out the way over Covid stuff, like to go to America and cross America and you know, Iceland, all this sort of stuff. I want to travel more, but I don't just want to travel. I want to kind of ultra triathlon my way around or run or, you know, whatever. That's, that's what I'd like to do.

Fantastic. Well, having interviewed Sean Conway and Mark Beaumont and Luke Tabursky, I, you know, you can actually make an incredible career out of this stuff, can't you? You know, and, and, and so while we're on, on job. So one of the ways that they've done that is they've written a book and then they do public speaking and they might do a documentary for it as well. So you're just about. Or just have to prepare probably after we've. When we release this podcast, about to release your book on, on joggle. So tell me, tell, tell us about the book.

So basically it is my story right from, you know, a few days before I set off to the very last day. And it's just every single day I. Because along the way I made lots of notes like, you know, I took lots of audio notes as well and I took lots of pictures and videos and stuff. So. Because I do forget everything. So I knew I'd have an issue. So, yeah, basically I had all the record of everything. So when I got back, I just literally wrote everything from, yeah, day one right up to day 23. And it's just all my experiences of, of, you know, although it was you literally getting up and doing the same thing every day, quite a lot of stuff happened and it was just my experience of how I dealt with everything, how I dealt with wild camping for the first time and, you know, making my own food, how I dealt with the routes being difficult and the wheel breaking off the buggy at one point and, you know, all of that sort of stuff. So. And the weather being absolutely crazy. So, yeah, I Mean, it's my. Just my experience, you know, completely honest, nothing hidden.

Brilliant. Well, I can't wait to read it. And it's called no Easy Day. Is that right?

No Easy Day. Yeah.

So tell me about what. What was the thought process behind no Easy Day as opposed to no Easy Days?

I like the sound of no Easy Day, but I'm. Yeah, A few of my friends saying it should be no Easy Days because it kind of. I suppose grammatically it's more correct, no Easy Days, but I like no Easy Day, so. Yeah, and it's my book.

Absolutely. I'm with you there. I think, I think that's fantastic. And what events have you got coming up?

For me personally?

Yeah.

Well, because of what's going on, it's really difficult to actually plan anything. But I have got the Trans Am Triathlon, which is an ultra triathlon that goes across America and hopefully that's next May. Obviously it was supposed to be this May and that's a 31 mile lake swim in Florida. And then you cycle from there to California and run Death Valley and then up to the coast there. Wow. Yeah, that's gonna be. That's a 28 day. And the bike is actually unsupported as well, so that will be super challenging.

And won't it be pretty hot as well?

Absolutely. I mean, the run has to be supported because of the fact that it's so hot in its Death Valley, they're not going to go. Off you go. Hopefully see you there.

Probably not, though. Let's be honest.

Actually, I do quite well in the heat because I'm constantly. I hate the cold so much. I'm so cold all the time. So I'm actually looking forward to that.

Well, I've. I've run and cycled in both Florida and California and I can tell you, I mean, the humidity in Florida, which was a little bit later, I think probably June, end of May, early June, was, you know, pretty punchy. And yeah, the heat when I was cycling in California at the same sort of time of year was. Was warm. So. Yes.

Yeah.

So be prepared for warm. How have you. How do you deal with the warm so well, then?

I don't. I don't know. I just think I'm in my happy place when I'm warm. I really struggle with the cold, which is stupid because a lot of the events I do, I force myself to swim in cold water and all sorts of things because I'm drawn naturally. If I can't do something, I then have to make myself do it. It's a really bad personality trait, really annoying. So the other thing I'm training for is the Arch du Arc and that does involve a lot of it. Basically, for an ultra Athlete, a 90 mile run from London to Dover isn't, I say, isn't particularly challenging and I don't mean that in an arrogant way. It just, it's manageable. But it's the getting in the English Channel after you've run 90 miles, which is what makes this event so really, really hard. The bike from Calais to Paris, again, if you've managed to get across the Channel, you are going to cycle, you're going to make that, as people call it, the victory lap. So it is all about the swim. That and for me, swimming in the sea is challenging on two counts because one, I've got a lot of open water fears I've had to try and overcome over the years or manage. And two, I, I really feel the cold. So that's, you know, I'm having to train really hard for that at the moment.

So what are you doing to try and overcome those open water fears? Because that's, I mean, that's got to be probably the, I would guess the single reason why so many people don't get into triathlon is that fear of swimming in particularly open water. So what are you doing to overcome that?

So, I mean, I just swim. I, I never let myself not do it. If you like. I've had so many awful experiences in the water, you know, I kind of would be in my rights to just say, do you know what, this isn't for me. But every time I have a panic attack or I have, I really struggle or I get mild hypothermia, whatever, I just think, right, okay, you know, that was that experience. And I've just got to put myself back in the water and the next time I get back in, you know, hopefully it's a good experience and I try and build on having good experiences and ultimately, you know, I could have like 10 good experiences. But then sometimes I'll just have an awful swim and I'll really struggle and it will knock me back a bit. But I just think as long as I'm keeping on getting in, I'll, you know, I'll just keep, you know, I'll do, I just keep doing it. So, you know, that's the only way I can cope with it because I can't get rid of the panic attacks. They are there sometimes and I can't avoid that, you know, but I won't give up that's, that's the main thing.

Panic attack in the water is not great. It's not a great place to have, have a panic attack.

Really bad. And I've had some shockers and it is. And I went to a Lanzarote swim camp last actually it was this year. It feels like last year it was this year and I did really well. I, I did my six hour swim there and my confidence was really high and, and one day I went, I thought I'd just go in on my own because I'm doing so well. And that day I just had an absolute shocker and I just had a huge panic attack in the sea on my own. And it'd been no different to me being in the sea the day before. The conditions were the same, it was a bit choppy. But something clicked that day. I was a bit tired, I shouldn't have gone in, you know, just. And yeah, so that was really, you know, kind of soul destroying actually because, you know, I did so well for like four or five days and then I really knocked myself back by doing that.

And swimming the channel is no mean feat, is it? So, so I mean, how are you preparing yourself for that?

Just as much sea swimming as I can. I mean, I live 10 minutes from the sea, so. And I mean this is done in a wetsuit. I wouldn't dream of doing it without a wetsuit because I know I just, I wouldn't be able to do it. Not just, I mean it's basically because of my, my body type and because I feel so cold and stuff. It would, it just wouldn't. But yeah, so it's just you work up to basically doing, you know, four hour swims, six hour swims, eight hour swims. You rarely go past eight. But yeah, you have to do lots of those, like back to back. It's a bit like marathon training in a sense in the sea. You know, you'll do a back to back long run and stuff like that. Long swim rather so. And then it's. You have to get used to the cold so there's a lot of climatization involved in. So we start like swimming in May properly and just build up. And also it's feeding as well. That's a big thing that people don't realize. You've got to feed in. Basically you can't touch the boat so they throw you some, you know, like a empty milk bottle of whatever it is that you're drinking. You've got 30 seconds really to get as many calories into your body as possible because otherwise you'll start going backwards. So all that, you know, hard earned miles that you've just, you know, swam, you'll start losing the minute you stop. So. And that's quite difficult. Like lying on your back kicking whilst trying to drink and eat in 30 seconds, like 400 calories.

And what do you put in that bottle to get your 400 calories down so quickly?

Very varied. I mean, yeah, I mean I quite like this, like a sports drink, quite concentrated, warm. I mean, hot, sweet tea is lovely but you know, there's not a lot of calories in it. I'm gonna try. Some guys in Lanzarote were doing spaghetti hoops.

Oh, right.

And tomato soup, you know, so I'm gonna try those next summer because spaghetti hoops, I think, I mean, it looked disgusting. They were like, it was all down them, like dribbling down there, wearing suits. But I'm like, well, do you know if it works?

And so you're. So you're going to try spaghetti hoops, are you?

I'm definitely going to try that, yeah, sure. I mean, I'm trying to think that works basically because it does come back. If you can't eat and you start getting sick, you know, that's game over. Because I've seen plenty of people throw up in the channel and then just continue swimming. So it might be that that's what happens on your channel swim, that you just start being sick. You just don't know. I've, you know, I've seen a lot of people, I've seen a lot of people struggling whilst swimming and stuff. So under no illusions of how difficult is and how hard it will be for me as well. So.

And what do you tend to eat when you're doing like your double Decker? What do you tend to eat? How will you fuel something like that?

I really just go for normal food with these long things. I mean, you sort of start off with your race kind of nutrition, but as the days go on you crave fresh fruit and vegetables. I crave potatoes quite a lot. Just very basic normal food. It's difficult in different countries because obviously you've got different stuff. I mean, Mexico, they did amazing. It was like fresh melon. And every morning they would cook hundreds and hundreds of pancakes. So I mean, I've literally got no teeth. I'd have pancakes every day with maple syrup like all over them. And then you get pizza, like they ordered pizza mid afternoon. So I'd come in and have a big slice of pizza and fall unconscious for about 10 minutes.

So it really is properly normal food then?

Yeah, definitely, yeah.

Because you're not, you're not going to feel something like that on gels, that's for sure.

Oh no. And I don't do gels anyway. Don't you hate all that stuff? So, so do.

So if you will, will you fuel on the go and. Or will it all be just stop, eat, you know, I'm guessing you must fuel on the go at certain point. What will you have if you don't have. If you're not having gels, what would you typically eat if you're on the bike or something?

I mean literally someone can make you a sandwich and you just grab it and have it on your bike or roll or. Yeah, banana. Anything that basically, you know, you can grab. I mean the guy, the best thing I had on the double decker is Christian who won the continuous good few days before us girls had finished. And he came back after he'd had a little sleep. He came back with like cheeseburger and chips. Oh my God, this is amazing. It's so good.

Well, you can certainly after with doing that sort of activity, you can, you can consume whatever you want as long as your digestive system's happy with it.

You can. I mean, I lost a stone on the double decker and the same with the joggle. I lost the stone again.

Wow, that's a lot. And you don't look like you've got a stone to lose.

No, not, no. I don't go into overweight. People said with the job, I should have put on a bit of weight actually before, but yeah, I didn't have time.

And do I remember seeing on your, on your Instagram feed that you're also going to do an ultra in Cornwall, aren't you?

Yes, I'm doing the Arc of Attrition which is run by Mud crew in January, the end of January. And this is a bit of a big thing for me as well because I am a plodder. I'm not known for doing things particularly fast. And so this has got 100 miles over the coast path in the winter and it's got a 36 hour cutoff. So that sounds okay, but it's quite, you know, it's quite tricky and it's got like a 50% cut off rate on it. So. Not cut off rate, dropout rate.

It is a, I mean I know the Cornish coastal path pretty well with. We spend quite a lot of time down there and it is a, it is a stunning stretch of coastline but it, it's lumpy and in January it's going to be slippy and messy and. Yeah, so when I saw you, you doing it, I didn't. I wasn't aware of that event, but I was instantly drawn to it. And then I started reading all the risk warnings, thinking, I'm not even sure they're going to let me in this, but I've got time to, to justify it.

And then.

And then you pointed out to me that it was fully subscribed. So which, which it is. But it's definitely a target for me for 2022. Because it looks fantastic.

Yeah. Yeah. And it's a tough one. So for me it's not, you know, I could do 100 miles on the coast path. I can do that. But can I do it in 36 hours? That's the question. So I'm having to. So at the moment, my training is very much on its short stuff, obviously, at the moment, because I'm only three or four weeks out of the juggle. But it's very much strength stuff that I'm doing at the moment. I'm doing, working on a lot of balance stuff, a lot of slow, kind of like body weight exercises to build my strength back up, because the juggle made me weak, if you like. I mean, I got very strong at pushing a push chair, a 30 pound push chair up hills. I got really good at that, but, you know, that's what you get good at. But the rest of my body got very weak, if you like. So I'm having to build my strength back up again so I can hit the coast path.

Well, it sounds like. It sounds like a brilliant event and as I say I will. I'll definitely be wanting to get involved in that at some point and I know I've never run further than a marathon, so I already. We have the Rutland round in Rutland, so I've kind of earmarked, well, it's about 65 miles. So I thought, well, during the winter I'll go run that. I'll go run it through the night and then at least I've got the experience of A, running through the night, B, you know, somewhere close to the distance and then hopefully they might let me in because they sound like they're quite strict.

Well, yeah, they do ask what you've done before, so I don't know what would happen if you say you haven't done. I don't know.

Yeah, they do. It does suggest that they won't let you in, but maybe that's just a good sales ploy.

Because, I mean, my events, people are always like, do I have to have, you know, done a qualifying race?

I'm like, no, I'll take your money. So that leads me nicely onto your event. So tell me about the event, the brutal events. Tell me, what are the different events that you do?

So we've got the wanna, which is the 82 mile run on the coast path. So that was like the first kind of running event that I took on. And yeah, so that's really tough. And that's 24 hour cut off, over 10,000ft of climb. That's a real brutal, brutal event. The Midnight Mountain Marathon is in Bracken and that goes up pen y van and it's a marathon, but we start it at like five o' clock in the evening. So basically people get to experience what it's like, you know, in the mountains at night, which is brilliant. It's a great course as well. So that's Kraken and we also have a Bergen version of that. So if you think it's too easy, you can whack, you know, 30, 40 pounds on your back and do it with a bergen.

Yeah, it was sounding a bit easy to me, I'll be honest.

I can see your face. Just a marathon that goes up a mountain. Yeah, that's really cool. What else do we do? We do the Decca uk, but we run that every sort of couple of years because it's. It's quite a hard event to run, actually. So that's like 10 Ironmen over 10 days. We also do the continuous format and that's. We run that in York, so that's good fun. But we won't run that next year. We'll run that the year after. And then there's the brutal extreme triathlons, which is in September in Clanberis, and that basically goes. See, next year is going to be a lot of fun because we're doing a half Ironman, a full, a double, a triple and a Quinn. Yeah, I know.

Wow.

My crew are gonna hate me by the end of this.

And how many people can you cope with doing those events? I mean, because that must be a hell of a thing to organise.

Yeah, I mean, it really is. And I have got a brilliant crew. I've got the same guys that just, you know, every year they just come and work so hard with me. It's brilliant. But we get like. So maybe 100 for the half and the full sort of gets to about 80 or so. You know, the first day is always quite busy and then it kind of depending because normally we run the double one year and the triple the next just to keep things different. And so it's sort of by Sunday morning it tapers down to like depending on how many we've got. You go from like 200 people to 30 and then to 20 and then to 10. And then it all gets a bit surreal because it's just, you know, me and a few of the crew left and a couple of very tired runners like coming through. So it's really good experience. I don't. The Quinn. It's the first time we've ever run the Quinn next year and that's going to be exciting and hard.

How many people do you think you will, you will have, have you quite.

A lot for that. We've already got like over 20, so. Because it's never been done before and it's, you know, it will be the first ever kind of extreme Quinn, if you like in the world. Yeah. So a 12 mile lake swim in Padan as well is going to be. That's going to sort.

It's going to be incredible, isn't it? And do these events typically sell out or. But what about your other events?

I mean, I don't, I don't want, I've never wanted that. I've never wanted mass participation events. It's not for me. I don't, I, like, I didn't go into it to make money. I went into it from a passion. It does need to make money because otherwise, you know, it's very hard work and you do need to pay people and yourself and stuff. But ultimately I, I get a lot out of it. I've made a lot of new friends, a lot of new friends. They've come from people doing my events and now, you know, our class as actual friends and stuff. So. And I find it so rewarding to see people who think they can't do something do the half or the full or even the double. I love that. I love hearing, you know, from them when they've entered to stressing about all their training and how they're going to do it, to crossing the finish line and me giving them a medal and just being like, you know, that's fantastic. I get a lot out of that.

And how do you crew an event that lasts as long as it, I mean, as long as it does. I mean, do you got, do you have like essentially two crews that are disappearing off and sleeping or.

You just.

Work them to the bone?

Yes, we do. With the brutal. We have sort of shifts. Of course. I couldn't make them work like three or four days on the. But it does depend some of them. Some people just like sleep deprivation and they just stay away from pretty much the whole thing, but other people are less keen on it. So, yeah, I try and do some shifts so people do actually get some sleep at some point.

And have any of your events happened in 2020?

No.

No. So you've just pushed them all?

Yeah, because the first one was the oner, and that was. We were just going into just before lockdown. So, to be honest, it sounds bad in a way, but I've been doing this for 10 years now and I was kind of needing a break, so it's not a bad thing. I wasn't going to try and do them, actually, or try and run them socially. Distance. And again, Wales is not. They don't want people there and I don't want to be part of, you know, the trouble that they've got with already having too many visitors. I don't want to add to that.

Well, I think your community around. The community around where you're hosting these events is a kind of big part of it, isn't it? So you don't want to alienate that community by trying to bring people in.

Definitely not. And that's the last thing they need right now. And also I was very aware that the bike route, which is always busy, would be very busy and I did not want to be putting any of my cyclists on that, you know, whilst it's so chaotic at the moment, because there'd be problems and then, you know, that would be terrible. So happy to wait for another year.

And are there any other events that you haven't yet put on? But you think. I'd love to do this.

Organising. Yeah, yeah. So can I talk about this? I've got some ideas. I have got some ideas, especially triathlon is going very much adventure Y type, self supported type. And I've got some plans for next year, possibly next year, maybe the year after. But.

Yeah, but we can't hear any more for now.

No, but, yeah, I'm gonna start, like. Yeah, doing a bit more work on that and launching that at some point. And that's going to be a bit. It's quite exciting, I think. Yeah.

I think that these adventure triathlons sound fantastic and, you know, they do seem to be becoming more popular. I mean, Helvellyn had a. I mean, I know that it was a weird year, but it had an amazing turnout and I'm sure it would have normally got that, had it not been for lockdown. And then the extreme ones that you're putting on are just fantastic. But they do sound like they're kind of bucket list style events, aren't they? They're not the sort of thing that, you know, you're not going to go get set a fast time on them, that's for sure. But, you know. And do you see that? Is that a part of the triathlon world that's really growing?

What, the adventure start? Yeah, I definitely think it's where we're going. And personally, you know, having just spent three weeks on the road, basically a very busy road for the push chair, I'm very keen to get off road more now. Our roads are very busy and it's, you know, it's difficult cycling on it. You're constantly having issues with motorists being stupid and so, yeah, I think more off road stuff is needed and I.

Think as an event organiser that puts the fear of God into you, doesn't it?

Because the very worst thing, it's one thing that me and my head medic are always constantly. Once they're off the road, we're happy with them. Up mountains in the middle of the night, that's fine because we can get to them. It's the roads and, you know, that's where we have the problems for sure. And it's not the cyclist's fault.

No. And it is. Yeah. When you've got, when you've got people in a race mindset, they make decisions that they wouldn't make if they were on cycling. Not ordinarily. Wouldn't they?

There is an element of that which we try and discourage people because ultimately they're on the roads and then, you know, you got to follow the highway code. It's. That's not closed roads, you know, so we have to make the cyclists aware that they have to, you know, it's their responsibility as well to be sensible. You can't just put your head down. I mean, I've seen a guy in a race abroad and he was racing and we were on closed roads, but there were some cars about him, but he had his head down the whole time, aero position. And he ended up having an accident and really hurting himself and everybody was like, well, you need to look up sometimes. So it's. And I find, I do find a lot of the people that are racing very, very hard with their head down. That's where there's definitely going to be trouble with that. Yeah, yeah.

Because it's not. You're not on a track, you Just can't, you know, something's going to come out in front of you at some point, isn't it? Coming back. I'm intrigued by the kind of mental toughness of getting through, through events like this. Have you developed any techniques over, over the years as to how you. I mean, there must be some seriously dark moments in a. In a Double Decker, for example. Have you developed, have you kind of worked out any strategies that you think help you?

I don't know about strategies. I mean, I take it as it comes. Basically, the more experience you get, the more, the easier it gets, I would say. I mean, because I've done the Double Decker, the joggle. When things got very hard on the joggle, I drew from the double decker. The double decker was longer. It was as hard it was, you know, I was able to say to myself, you know, you've been through this stuff before. You know, it goes really quickly, actually. You think that you can't possibly go on another step, but time goes so quickly and before you know it, you're sat at home on the sofa watching TV with the kids. So, you know, you can get through that. So that helped me. It sounds a bit duff, but that really helped me. Just understanding that this time will pass. Also recognizing that you have massive lows, but equally you have highs and they can be so quick. You can have one massive low and then 10 minutes later you're fine again. And understanding that when you hit that, because I often say to people that are doing ultras, especially like decas and things like that, do not make any decisions when you first wake up, you'll feel awful, you'll feel like you've got flu, you'll feel dreadful, your whole body will ache. Don't make any decisions if you think, you know, I want to give up and don't make that decision right there and then because you feel bad. Get moving, you'll feel better. So it's all these little. It's experience definitely helps with that sort of thing. And recognizing when your blood sugar has dropped, how that affects your mental state, things like that. It's. Yeah, it's just knowing really. It's getting out there and experiencing it and understanding your own body and your mind.

It's interesting, it's really good advice in terms of not making the decision when you first wake up. And actually you don't have to be in a double decker to learn from that, do you? Because actually the same could be the case of, you know, the morning after you've run a marathon or even three Days after you've run a marathon, just.

Don'T make any decisions like within, you know, you're desperate to give up. Even in a marathon, you know, don't make a decision. Give it, give it another 20 minutes. And you'll be surprised that in that 20 minutes, especially if you get a bit of food and drink down you, or if in an ultra race, stop for 10 minutes and get your head down for a sleep. And even 20 minutes of sleep can be a massive game changer. That's, you know, all that sort of stuff is invaluable to know.

I can't remember who I was interviewing, but it might have been one of the ultra runners that, you know, I asked them the same question and they said, more times than not, I've worked out that if I'm feeling low, it's a nutrition thing. It's not a, you know, it's. I probably need to eat is the first thing I need to think about.

Yeah, I learned that a long time ago. The minute I started getting negative feelings for an event that I've been training for and desperate to finish. And all of a sudden I was like, I don't want to do this. And it's like, where's this come from? And, you know, a few times I gave up, and then when I got back, I'm like, why did I give up? So I soon recognized that the minute I start getting those I don't want to do these I don't want to be here moments, eat something. And also hallucinations. I used to have horrendous hallucinations because of my dehydration. I didn't realize, but the two and two things together, that when I was really dehydrated, I'm rubbish at drinking, that I'd get really vivid hallucinations. I don't get them anymore because I can.

Yeah, well, it's almost you almost. Sounds like you're missing out now, I think, cracking. And so how have you learned to hydrate successfully? Is it, you know, how I just.

Drink more than I used to?

Right. Okay. So it's not like you're popping salt tablets at a particular ratio. It's just drink more.

I'll just try and drink more because I know where it's going to end up otherwise.

It sounds ironic, doesn't it, that you have to drink more to miss out on the hallucinations. Normally that would come the other way around. What's the worst advice you hear people given when they're talking about doing, you know, a stupidly Long event like a double decker or a. You know, is there any bad advice that you hear thrown around?

That's an interesting question. I'm not sure. I guess it varies. I mean, I. Because I'm a slow, bit of a plodder, I tend to just. I train quite sensibly. I guess I would be. I mean, the worst thing I see when I run events, organize them, is the first couple of days on a deca where people just. They can't help themselves. They just race. And we all just stand back and be like, oh. And I've seen it on a few of the ultra runs as well. And they really push themselves to the point where they're almost throwing up and they don't finish. That's the thing. It's. Yeah. I mean, that's not necessarily advice, but it's the people that race off when you've got a long event and it's like, no, no.

Well, that sounds like good. That sounds like good advice to heed. And are there any books that you. Now that you've written your own book, are there any books that you found particularly valuable on your journey or you find yourself recommending?

It's funny. Mark Beaumont, I just adore him. I think he's absolutely awesome. And so I've listened to his. So when I was doing the Double Decker, I was listening to his audiobook. And because you can't have headphones, obviously for safety reasons, on the bike course, I had him on my phone, stuffed down my sports bra.

I'm sure Mark would be quite pleased to hear that.

Actually, I told him that, but I found that brilliant. And also, David Goggins followed Mark Beaumont as well, and I thought his book so different, you know, massive different writing styles and different. Completely different people, but it's still the same sort of thing. It's still resilience. It's still. Still never give up sort of thing. I mean, Mark's completely different to David Goggins, but they're basically the same. They have the same attitude as in, they are going to get to where they want to go regardless of, you know, what gets in their way. And I definitely like any book that has that message. But David Goggins is just great. He's just such a character.

I've just bought that book, but I haven't actually read it yet, so. Thank you.

So the cracking story. And actually the audiobook's brilliant because it's almost like audiobook podcast. And so, I mean, I was listening. I've listened to it twice, actually, because I'VE listened to it over very. A couple of years ago as well. So it's just when you're running, when you're doing an Ultra, it was just. It's quite. It takes your mind off a lot of miles. It certainly. Yeah, it made me laugh as well because he's nuts. He's full on nuts. It makes me feel like quite normal.

But I also. I can completely relate to what you said about Mark Beaumont. So I interviewed him for the podcast last week, I think it was, and I said it said to him that I'd listened to both of the round the world cycling books whilst cycling.

Same. Yeah.

Did you. I don't know if you found the same as I did, but I'd be so into the book that I'd forget that I was cycling through Cornwall, for example, and that I kind of mentally. I was cycling through New Zealand or Afghanistan or somewhere like that. It just transported you, didn't it?

Oh, he's such a good, such a good writer. He's so good. And also. Oh, Al Humphries. I got into him as well on the joggle. He's. I think they're friends actually, him and Mark, but he did the round the world, but kind of super laid back version of it. So he was like. He. I can relate to him because he's like not very prepped. He's like his bike, his wheels falling off and he's packed all these books and stuff and made his pack really heavy and. But he's. He sounds like a really nice guy and he just, he kind of just was like, didn't really research it. He's just kind of. I'm just going. And I love that attitude as well, as well as Mark's, you know, make sure everything's squared away. I like that too. But it was. Our Humphreys was a really good story and I really enjoyed that. So you definitely need to. Again, the audiobook, he narrates it. So that's. I like it when the actual writer, like, you know, narrates it because it's more interesting.

I think it is as long as, like. So when, when they're good at it. It definitely accentuates the power of the book occasionally. Like, I didn't narrate other than. Other than the start and the end of my book because I'm a horribly slow reader and it would have just been a painful experience for everyone. So it doesn't work all the time. But I agree it can make it significant better, so. But that's brilliant. I haven't. I Haven't picked up on that book before, so I will check that one out for sure. So if you could only pass on one piece of advice with regards to endurance activities and sports, what would it be?

I think the one thing I try and live by is just don't be afraid to focus. Fail. And for a long time I used to really struggle with failure because I'd fail quite a lot due to various things because mostly I go for stuff that's so hard. Sometimes I don't prepare very well, people might say, and just sometimes it just doesn't work. And I, you know, and I used to really struggle with it and I used to come home with my towel to my legs and be embarrassed and be, you know, fed up about it. But now I'm like, I just embrace it. If I fail, then hell, yeah, I've failed. But as long as I've always learned, I always try and take three things away from a failure that I'm actually gonna then take on to the next time. And as long as I've, you know, I can change it and I'll try again. It's like with my one a day dacas, I failed. I don't know how many. I think I've done about five of them. And it's horrible failing. It's not, it's not a comfortable feeling, but you learn so much from it. And every time I fail, I just think, okay, fine, I'll do it again. I'll keep trying until I actually manage to do it. And I will do it one day. And that's. So that would be my bit of advice. Just do stuff. Don't be afraid of failure.

Fantastic advice. I think they say that fail stands for first attempt in learning. So I think that's brilliant advice and excellent. Thank you. And last question, I suppose, what are you excited about for the year or so ahead? What most excites you about the year ahead?

Well, there's one thing I just can't tell you.

There's the thing that you can't tell us. That is the most exciting thing.

I've got this new plan that I thought of yesterday and I can't tell you, but it is exciting and it's going to happen in March. And yeah, so that I'm very excited about that. But I'm sorry, I can't tell you, but otherwise it would be the arch to art, which has been on my bucket list for like 10 years now. And the race director has finally said, okay, stop hounding me, I'll let you do it. But for the God's sake, train. So I might be doing that next year, but because of COVID and everyone was rolled over, it might be the following year. So one day, one year it will happen. But I think if I was. If I had to pick anything that I had to do and I had like one event and I couldn't do any more, it would be the Archduart. It's been the one thing that's been kind of obsessed about for a long time because it's. You can't blag it in any way. For me, it's horrendously difficult. The swim is, you know, it's 50, 50 that I'll do the swim because it's so hard for me personally. So I think that because of that it makes it just, you know, extra special. Extra special. Horrible event.

It sounds incredible. And yeah, the idea of doing swimming the channel after running 90 miles, you know, once, once you're over there, you're right. The bike ride will be hopefully an absolute breeze. But. But yeah, that swim is going to be challenged. Challenging. So I can't wait to see you, to knock it out the park and see you achieve that next year. Well, Claire, it's been an absolute pleasure chatting to you. You're completely inspiring in terms of. You just have. I don't even know how to say it, you've just expanded my mind in terms of what's possible and what we can achieve. Yeah, way beyond what I expected. So it's just fantastic to see what you're, what you're doing and I, I can't wait to kind of see the next chapter in that success. I'm sure you'll agree, one incredible lady. You know, when I first heard about Brutal Clare, I expected her to be really kind of masculine and, you know, massive muscles and tattoos and everything else. And actually Brutal Clare was a lot more quietly spoken and just a lot gentler person than I expected from that name. So absolutely mind boggling how she goes off and does these incredible endurance efforts and really interesting to understand the psychology around how she just, I mean, even just gets out of bed on those days in the middle of an endurance event and just kind of carries on despite her body telling her no. So loads of great advice in there that we can take from that. And if you want to find out more, you can find out more@brutalclair.co.uk or about her events at brutalevents.co.uk and her book no Easy Day is now out and you can find out about that@brutalbranded.com so loads to take out of that and I'm sure you'll agree I'm just, it's just going to be exciting. Exciting to see whatever she can come up with next. And remember, this podcast is brought to you by Brits Superfoods. You can find out more@britsuperfoods.co.uk but if you use the link in the show notes or you use the referral code of Tribeathlon, you'll get 10% off your orders. You'll get a free bag of juices worth £15 with every order and those will happen forever. As long as you buy from Brits Superfood. Having started with that referral code, you'll get those forever. In addition to that, you'll also benefit from that 110% money back guarantee. So if you don't see the value in it, then they'll give you your money back and an extra 10%. So go check out the link in the show notes or go to BritSuperfoods.co.uk and use the referral code Tribeathlon and you'll get that 10% off free shipping and free juice on every order. And don't forget to download the Tribathlon app for more amazing podcasts, but also to help you train, compete and to build your tribe.

Sam.