The Evolution of Endurance Sports with Ironman Legend Kurt Madden

Foreign.

If you let me get into your hearts, I will get into your head.

Imagine standing on the start line of your very first Iron man and actually the third Iron man in history back in Oahu in 1980. No high tech gear, no fancy nutrition plans, just raw endurance and a relentless drive to push human limits. Now for fast forward 44 years and that same athlete has just completed his 50th Ironman in Kona in 2024. Kurt Madden, also known as Coach K or Mad Dog, is an endurance sports pioneer, a champion Ultraman and a world class triathlon coach. In this episode, we dive deep into his journey. What led him to that historic start line in 1980. The lessons learned from five decades in endurance sport and the business and life principles he's extracted along will explore what it takes to endure both as an athlete and as a coach, why he's devoted to helping others achieve their peak performance, and how AI is about to change the future of coaching and business forever. Whether you're an aspiring triathlete, a business leader, or someone looking for mindset to go further, this episode will inspire you to redefine your own limits. So I know you're going to absolutely love this conversation with Kurt Madden. So, Kurt, welcome to the Business of Endurance podcast. I am so looking forward to chatting to you. So looking forward to this conversation. I know the last time we met in person, it was in the wonderful Kona on the beach there, just kind of getting ready for the race and just what an amazing time that was. But I'd like to go right back to start this conversation. I'd really like to go right back because Kona was your 50th Ironman, which shows you kind of got the most amazing history in this sport. And you, I believe your first iron man was 1980 and it was the last Iron man in Oahu. So tell us about how did you find yourself on the start line of an ironman back in 1980? What got you there and what was it like?

Yeah, well, first of all, Charlie, it's just so awesome to join you and your listeners and I'm just honored. And anytime I can jump across the pond and kind of hang out and have some tea, I think that's fantastic. So, you know, when I look back on my life, it's I, I think I was literally at the right place at the right time and I was a wild young 21 year old living on the beach figuring, hey, they had this, you know, competition every year that it's a half a mile swim, it's a five and a half mile run and a half mile swim. And being young, wild and free, I figured, what the heck, you know, I can do that. And little did I realize I was going to get my rear end handed to me. So I paid my money and I jumped in and out of 400. I was like 30th. And a light went off in my young mind to say, you know, what if I trained? What a concept. And the next year I didn't train like I trained now, but I actually went out and I swam and I ran down the beach a couple times and then I was third. And I said, oh my goodness, I think maybe genetically or whatever, I think I can do this and kind of compete at a high level. So the race director came over to me. His name was Tom Warren and Tom had won the 1970 Ironman. And he actually pulled something out for listeners called a newspaper. And he showed me the newspaper article. He actually pulled up Sports Illustrated, which back in the day that was the magazine, just not the swimsuit issue. But anytime you get your hands on Sports Illustrated, he was on the COVID of it and he leaned over and he was looked at me and he says, you know, you can swim, you can run, just go get a bike. And that's all he had to say. And I ran home, literally. And I told my wife and I'd been married a year and so I, I think I invented in a wife. The company was called the Windsor and I don't know if they had that in the UK, but this bike must have weighed at least 20 kilos. It was huge. And I just got out and every day I swam and I bike and I ran. And before I knew it, I'm on an airplane and I'm heading over to Oahu. And little did I realize that I'm there. And the only problem they had just the day before the race when I was on Oahu is a big storm had come through and the waves were probably 6 to 7 meters high. Well, even back then they had enough sense to say, we want people to maybe finish this event. So they moved over to Ala Moana harbor, which they just put up a line and it was a thousand yards, four times. Pretty straightforward. Your crew was going to follow you. You went all the way around the island and your crew would play leapfrog and catch up. And then they gave you a map to say, just run the Honolulu Marathon. Real simple. Now you would have loved the pre race meeting. Beings will say, welcome everyone, we have 99 people. You paid your $20. And it's going to be really enjoyable. We're going to do this, hopefully in one day. And the rules are real simple. Don't cheat. Now, do you have any questions? And we were like, oh, my goodness. So Dave Scott was there. We had Diana and I there, and a program called back in the Day called ABC Wild Riddle Sports, and Jim Lampley, another announcer. And you know, all of a sudden, boom, the sun came up. Then the event started. Felt real good on the swim, not a problem at all. Hopped on the bike and went around. And it was an open course, so we had to kind of get through traffic and just kind of, you know, get along. And then I was in a traffic section up mile 110, two miles to the finish. I flatted. And due to the traffic and not having a repair kits, I literally just rode it in on the rim, hopped off the bike, changed my outfit. I pulled out this map. And you can imagine you're trying to follow a map in Honolulu, in Hawaii, these words are so long that it's hard to even pronounce them. And I literally got lost. So I looked at one of the locals who was smoking something that maybe in some parts of our world is legal today. And the smoke was coming off him. And I said, hey, brah, where do I go? And he looked and he said, you go that way. And I said, hey, thank you. Hang loose. And I took off. And so I continued to run. And before I knew it, I was moving up and moving up and moving up. And then it was that moral dilemma at about mile 15, that Tom Warren was directly ahead of me. In the meantime, my wife was in a car yelling and screaming, go to the whip. You got to. And I'm thinking, wait a minute. He invited me to the race. He's like my mentor, and will he forgive me if I pass him or should I just sit back? But in the moment, I made the decision to go by him. So I finished six of net events, just over 11 hours with a road bike. Dave won. And I think Dave was like 9,40ish. And I thought, honestly, that event would never happen. And for our older listeners, we actually wore something back then called dolphin shorts. Now for our people today, they wouldn't know what I'm talking about, but those were the shorts we wore. But I honestly thought that was before the Internet. It was like a Woodstock festival. This will never happen. And little did I realize that event continued to go. And it's so neat because just two years ago, Bob Babbitt, we had an event with the class of 1980, the people that actually finished that event. And there was about 15 of us together. But to go back in time and see where we are today. So that's how I kind of got started in 1980.

Sounds like, I mean, it's such a, an amazing era for the sport. And I remember Bob Babbitt telling us the story of his first iron. Was that the same year or was he the year before?

Oh, no, I met actually Bob Babbitt on a bus because what they did is they rented a. I mean, it's kind of cute. They rented a bus and said, we're going to take you all the way around Oahu. So Bob was literally sitting right next to us. So we became besties on the bus. And here we are today, living in San Diego. We live 15 miles apart and we hang out at each other and we see each other all the time.

What an amazing community that that kind of has, has created.

What was.

For those that don't know, and I kind of think I know, but what was the reason that it ended up was the last year it was on Oahu and it moved to Kona thereafter?

Well, based on what I know it was, it was really put on by a company called Nautilus. And the race director, Valerie Silk, I think she saw the popularity. And so you can imagine Oahu is a high dense area with traffic. And if you're going to have a, an event, it wouldn't just go well there and you're not going to be able to get permits to shut down Oahu. Now the Big Island a little bit different because it is actually more spread out. And again, you've been to Kona. No, that's. Logistically it's much better to try that. So they move that over right after that year. But what people, some people don't realize is back then we didn't have a cutoff of say, 17ish hours. And there was one person that actually started the event at 7 o' clock in the morning. He somehow got through the swim, dog paddling, he got on his bike, he was doing the marathon. But he stopped at Denny's at like 2 o' clock in the morning to get some coffee and some pancakes and some waffles, got back out there and he finished the event at 7 in the morning. He literally finished just before we started the award ceremony. So after that they said, again, we can't do that. We've got to have a time cut off.

Wow. And at what point in the Ironman's Journey. Did you have to qualify to race Kona?

You know, that is a great question. I'm probably not the best person to ask because I raced as a pro for five years. I stepped away for a while, did a lot of trail running, supporting my family, being a better husband, better dad, got into education. I came back in 2015. At that time, if my memory serves me correct, I'm not sure if you had to qualify, but then shortly after you did have to qualify. So probably again I'd have to go back and look. So I, I'm gonna, I'm gonna pause on that. So.

So obviously when we were back there, October last year, racing Kona, it was my first Kona. It like totally blew me away, you know, And I think what try, we'll come back to try not. But what try not created there for their athletes was unbelievable. And it was such a brilliant lead up to what was an amazing race and an amazing week. But going back to Kona to race your 50th Ironman must have been quite special. What number Kona was that for you? And tell us about what was racing your 50th Ironman in Kona like.

Yeah, that was my 11th time in Kona and I think for me it was literally surreal because I think there's a certain mystique and a certain draw to going to Kona and then being able to adapt to the changes of the sport. The course pretty much has stayed the same, but it's being able to continue to strive for mastery. And we often say that Kona is like the Mount Everest. You know, if the weather is clear and there's sun or no wind, it's probably going to be a better day. However, I have learned with doing all of my racing over there, meeting with the Ironman World Championship and then the Ultraman that I've gone around, you know, the Big island in a three day stage race. I've done that four times. So I know that island intimately, that the weather can change literally within 30 minutes. So you need to really have that air sense, kind of like a helicopter pilot, of knowing, hey, what's going to, what's going to come your way. And I think that's what keeps you really humble. So for me it was, I think just like any year it was. It's amazing how much any athlete commits to Kona, including you. And I know for me it was a daily visual of what it's going to be like to swim again, to bike again, to run again. Knowing my goals were different than when I was a pro, but just being there and I think what made it real special for me as I was there with six athletes and then I was there with Tridot. So when we talk about ohana that there was so much ohana that we had the ohana from the event. The only thing that was missing, though, was our girls. And I do miss our girls. I want to say that I want to put a plug in for that because that's how the sport kind of started. But. But looking at that. So my preparation was good. I worked with all my athlet. Each one was doing things a little bit differently. But we know again, we're going to talk a little bit about tried out, but things were somewhat similar. So for me, getting there 10 to 12 days before that is to me, gold. Because you're immediately adapting to the weather. Your body clock is getting in sync. You're getting down to the pier every day just to go ahead and swim. You're getting out on the. On the bike course and you're going up the hobby a couple times. You're going through the lava fields just to kind of see how that is. And then you're going out to the energy lab and saying, okay, this is. This is like the gladiator. I'm going to smell the dirt, I want to taste the dirt. But it's lava. And lava can be very humbling because, you know, the unique thing about Kona is that you've got heat, you've got wind, you've got humidity, but the equalizer is the lava. And you can't simulate that wherever you train. Because I work with people throughout the world. They're telling me, coach, I've got it. I've got, you know, I can turn the heat up, you know, or I live in an area that's a little bit warm. You know, you don't have. You don't have lava. So I think all that preparation was really, really important. And then checking with my team to make sure and again, the try not events were off the charts. It just. It grabs your heart, it grabs your soul, and. But then again, knowing on race day, what I like is the last 30 seconds, it's like you can just feel your heart and your head just doing this. So at that point, you know, once you hear that cannon go off, there's literally no turning back.

You've mentioned the word ahana, and I want for lots of listener listeners that don't know what that means, but I want to ask you what that means in general. And then what does that Mean to you?

Yeah. There's probably various ways to interpret ohana, but I think that, respectfully, I live on the west coast, but I travel there, and as I go there two times a year for the past 30 or 40 years, I've really embraced a lot of people over there and a lot of stakeholders. So when I think of ohana, it's really thinking of family. And family means we do it all together with everyone there. And it's that. That love and that unconditional, hey, we're going to get you to wherever you need to go, and we're going to offer you support and guidance and empathy and everything that we need and make it very holistic. And it's kind of like a cultural thing. But I think when you're experienced in ohana, you know it for sure. It's kind of like when you walk into a restaurant, you walk into a pub, you know, you walk into a store, you walk into someone's home, you can feel that culture. And I know for me, that ohana is just really, really key because it gives you strength, it gives you energy, it gives you assurance. And I think at the end of the day, especially to Charlie, you know, I don't want to jump forward the race, but you know how invaluable it is to get through those aid stations when you're just feeling the love, you're feeling it, and that's what. It just pumps up your tires a little bit more. And that'll get you to the next, and that'll get you to the next, and that'll get you to the next. And they're out there because their number one thing is they're volunteering. And when they volunteer like that, even Ferdina was out there. And I'm like, whoa, is that class? That is class. You know, it's really class. And I think, too, just knowing that we're put on this earth one point in time, we're going to live a certain amount of years, but to be a good person. So when I think of ohana, it's making sure you honor that. It's that underwritten rule that we should always have in all of our races. But I think when you're in Kona, that it really captures up.

Yeah, it was absolutely beautiful. And yes, getting a pat on the back by Jan Frodeno and handed a drink as you go up Polani, just like, right, okay, I've got to get. I'm on this again. Even if I wasn't on it, it was.

It was.

It was brilliant. And tell us about the race. So how did the race go for you? I think you had. I also had an intimate experience with the jellyfish.

How did that.

How did that whole day pan out for you? And also, to give people context, remind me what age category you're in, because obviously, if this is your 50th, you've done a few.

Yeah, well, to start off in the US we have something called Medicare, and that provides health services. So I am in the 65 to 69 age group, and, you know, I know my competitors, and there's always a real positive vibe, and they always bring out the best in me, and hopefully I spur them on to bring out the best of them on race day. So, you know, when I. When I swam out to the starting line, I had been there for two weeks, like I said, and I know the vibe, and I know the water, and I was like, I'm ready to go. I felt that inner confidence. I didn't have to say it. An athlete knows when they're on, just like you. You. You know. And so anyway, I'm on the starting line. Boom, the gun goes off. And our group took off, and I went right off the phone. I was the front swimming well. And I think five minutes into it, all of a sudden, I collided with a jellyfish. And it was amazing because it literally hit me in the forehead. I got hit on my arms, and it's that feeling of, I'm. I know what just happened. What do I do? Don't panic. Just keep a rhythm, keep a tempo. But it was just that. It was just, like we say, kind of getting T bone. It's like, wow, that was not on my radar. I didn't have my C collar on because my head just got thrown back, and it was just like, trying to assess where I was. So when I got out of the swim, I felt relatively good. I think of my time. If I look at my predicted time, I was maybe two minutes off, which I know on that course, I don't sweat it because you had a long day in front of you. So I felt good. But all of a sudden there was, you know, the spray and the vinegar, and I'm like, wait a minute. There was no heads up going into that. Not that we could have prevented the jellyfish, and I don't think they could have gotten them all off the swimming course. But then you're reacting, and it's. It's so different for our listeners that in my travels, if you do get sung by a jellyfish and you're not competing. It's. It's a little bit easier because you're probably going to sit down, you're going to have a lifeguard there, you're not going to panic. They'll spray it on you. Sit back and relax. Versus I'm in T1. I'm like, I can't deal with that right now. I've just got to do that. But I could just sense I was not in a good place. But the main thing was get on the bike. So I got on the bike and every time that I would pour water in my head or on my arms, I just. I just went numb. It felt like kind of a hot iron. And I knew that wasn't good, but I wanted to make sure cognitively that I was okay and just, I had to follow my plan. So, you know, the bike course was kind of uneventful. It could have been. And again, I think I've got context. Some people, they always talk about the Winnakona. I would say if I look at all of my races there, it was not a super windy day. I think it was very forgiving. But I know as I was riding out, I was near the, you know, the Mauna Lani, and all of a sudden I saw Layla go by and I'm like, whoa, what just happened? He is already coming back and where is everyone else? But the climb to Hawi, it was fine. Coming back down, there was a little bit of wind, but I think I stayed with my within myself and I came off the bike, give or take, right around six hours. So for me and my age group, I didn't have to over bike it. I thought I was. I looked at my power, I looked at my heart rate. I'm like, check the box. But as soon as I got off the bike, I'm like, wait a minute. I am not in a good space mentally, physically, spiritually. And as you know, that's when reality sinks in. It's like, oh, my gosh, I'm not going at 30 kilometers anymore, anymore on the bike. You know, the wind isn't going by. I'm now running. And that lava and the heat, I knew within the first couple of minutes. And I've learned in this race, you've just got to get through the first 10 or 15 minutes. But I know that when I came up to that first aid station, I was going, I think this is going to be a pretty challenging day. And I was consuming. I was actually carrying a hand bottle. I was consuming, you know, probably 12 to 14 ounces every aid station and then I was taking an ice because I know in Kona ice is your best friend. So. And I went to Coke almost immediately, which I usually don't do that. But the, the, you know, the, the Morton for me, the mortal for me was probably not my, my best choice when I, when I knew that what was offering there, I probably felt my best at about 10k. But when I saw the tried out group I let them know this is going to get really rough and it's, it's kind of hard to define what the issue was. Was it the allergic reaction? Did I over bike? You know, I wasn't cramping but that energy, that rhythm at tempo because I know that typically if I can get up Polani and then get out on the queen K, that that rhythm comes back. And this day it's really frustrating as an athlete. It's like being in a card game, a really high end poker game and it's like these are the cards I'm playing with. I'm not going to put much on the table. So it's, it's kind of like, you know, I've just got to hang in there and always hoping for a bright spot, like something might happen where I can re establish that rhythm. So it was a run, it was a walk, it was a shuffle. But literally when I got to mile 16, one of my athletes came up to me who is really, his run is probably in the range of 330, but he was dealing with the hip injury. He came alongside me. He says, coach, you and I are going to run the last 10 miles. And I'm like, what? I said, you're like a Tesla. I'm like a Model T right now. I've got no motor, I've got nothing. He goes, oh no, we're going to go through the last 10 miles together. And I said, whoa, talk about, you know, giving a heart to his coach. We literally ran, we shuffled, we did the best we could the last 10 miles. And I saw McKeely Jones, know, with maybe, you know, three kilometers to go and that last little uphill, she's yelling at me, Coach K with her Australian accent, giddy up, giddy up. And I said, mckeely, this horse, there's not a, there's not, we're not horsepower today. It's not going to happen. But I think coming down that last 100 yards to say what is going to happen. I'm with one of my athletes. This is my 50th Ironman distance. I'm in Kona oh, my gosh. You know, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter if you're first, if you're in the middle, or if you're the last person. The main thing is that you've got up to the mountaintop with Mount Everest and you came back alive and you've got O Ohana and you've got a family.

Amazing. I can. I can relate to so much of what you just said there because. So I got a jellyfish thing, thankfully not on my face. And also it was at the end of the swim because having had. I had a really bad jellyfish thing in Mauritius a few years ago, and I literally sat on. I did get almost straight out and I had sweat pouring off me for about an hour, like to the point where we almost called an ambulance. So if I'd had that jellyfish at the start of the swim, I think I'd have been a lot more worried about swimming out into the middle of nowhere. And in fact, my daughters. But both my daughters were on the surfboards out on the. So that might have been the only thing that kept me going, actually.

But.

But it's interesting. So I felt good on the bike. I like you. I cycled within all of what Tridot told me. And I got off the bike feeling good. And for the first mile, I felt good of the run. And then literally mile two it went. It was like everything drained out the soles of my feet, and I just couldn't.

And.

And I could. Afterwards, I couldn't work out was the heat or as the jellyfish or as a combination, because I'd fueled exactly as I wanted, I'd hydrated exactly as I wanted, and it just never happened. And so hearing you say that is really interesting. And funnily enough, I was in the energy lab dying on my ass, and I got chatting to another British guy, also called Charlie, and we did about eight miles together. And unfortunately, I left him in a portal towards the end, but it was. It absolutely saved me. So it was like. It's amazing. What I mean, it's just incredible. But it also. Listening to you talk about that answers a few questions. And I chatted to somebody afterwards, and he said he had a antihistamine tablet in on his bike bento box, because he knew there was a risk of jellyfish, which obviously I would do the next time I go to Kona. Is there anything else learning, Having learned what you learned from that experience? Is there anything other than antihistamine that you would do differently now with that lesson? Within you.

You know, I've really reflected on that. I've had a lot of think time to say what would I do differently? And I think again, it was just an unfortunate situation. The anti histamine really, really sounds well, but I think safety is the most important thing because that's something beyond your control. I think again, when you're in the heat of the battle, you're not really aware of what's going on. You're just thinking about you and it's easy to get down on yourself like I am. I'm not having the race I want to. I've really prepared, I've done the heavy lifting and I'm super frustrate. You kind of get that self doubt and that negative energy in your head so you get the villains talking rather than your superheroes. But once you finish it, it's really clear. It's like, oh my gosh, it just wasn't me. And then you start to hear about the pros. But see when you're out there, you don't have a lot of intel. You don't have like an earbud on like they're telling you all the time this is what's going on or even going into the swim. In other words, if they would have said hey guys, I just want to give you a heads up before you start. Get ready, there's a lot of jellyfish and you notice I as well do. Charlie, you can't, you can't swim fast and dodge jellyfish all the time. It's kind of like you help and pray you miss most of them. So I think the anti histamine is good, but I think that experience for me as a coach and an athlete, it's better prepared me to say if and when it does happen, do your, do your best to kind of mitigate your losses, but do your best to continue on and don't put yourself in harm's way. Because every person has a, a wide variety of responses. Some people like, like God, you really did well despite the other people. Like you had a terrible race and I'm like, okay, I appreciate your feedback and again, I wish you would have been with me because maybe we could have done it together and then we could have kind of compared notes. But it's comforting for me to share that, you know, it was very similar for you. And then I saw some of the pros that just literally stopped. They couldn't go any further. So it is what it is. But I think again we know that it's considered maybe in extreme Events and that can happen almost anywhere. Something might happen during the event that you just have to manage. But at the end of the day it teaches you about grit, perseverance and you know what, we got to keep moving on no matter what in life.

I also had a pod of dolphins swim under me on the swim on the race swim. And afterwards, if you'd offered me, right, you could have the dolphins and the jellyfish or neither, which would you do? And I was like, I take both. Although now hearing you say how much it impacted your run, I'm not quite sure that would have been the right answer. But I mean just an absolutely amazing experience. We, we spent a bit of time exploring the Big island afterwards and I actually, I'm going to come back to your statement around bring the girls back to race together because I agree with that. But we spend a bit of time exploring the Big island which is an amazing place. So obviously you raced the first Ultraman and won the first Ultraman and went back and raced it multiple times. For those people that don't know what that is compared to an Ironman, explain what that is and explain how different an experience that is to racing in Ironman.

Yeah, and, and to give a little context for our listeners that as we've gone from 1980 in Oahu, now we're on the Big island. That we're on the Big Island. Then again, it was kind of like a John Collins when he sat down with a few people in a pub and you know, Waikiki and he got out of napkin and said, hey, we can do the Waikiki swim and we got the bike ride and the marathon, so we'll do that. And then you're an Ironman, you can brag for the rest of your life. Well, in 1982 was almost the same thing. We had a couple of people sit down, it was the same context, a couple beers, they started talking a little bit. Let's take this thing all the way around the island and what it'll be is a three day race. First day is a 10k swim and then we'll bike to the other side of the island about 90 miles. Day two, we'll go 175 miles and we'll go all the way from, you know, volcano all the way up to Hawi and then third day to put a little love and a little spice for dessert, we'll have you run the double marathon from Hawi all the way back to Kona. So at that time as a pro I was really objective. I mean my Best finish was six. But Dave Scott, you know, Tinley, Mark Allen, I'm like. I'm like second tier. I know that I'm not going to beat those guys. They were just better. However, with this one, I don't think anyone's going to buy it on this one. So it was a chance for me as a pro to find my niche, to break away a little bit, to say, I'll just kind of outlast them in three days. So I literally jumped into that first race. I was very fortunate, though, because I had locals that knew that island intimately and they were my crew. So the strategy was real simple. It was just go off the front and have people chase me because I'm a. I'm a strong swimmer. So that's what I did. And I just went off the front and I came out, like in, you know, the 10K swim. I think I came out, like, in 220. Got a commanding lead at the end of the first day, pushed that lead to the second day. Started the third day in hawi, and again, it was a smaller field, but I think I had, like, an hour and a half lead. So it gave me some peace of mind. Like, unless I really blow up, I'm going to be fine. I've just got to keep moving. So I think that first year, my split for the double marathon, I think I went. I think I went like 7 11. But then I came back in 1985, and I think my best run there was 642. Keep in mind, I had a lot of good tailwind, but it was very comforting for me to get to the halfway point, which you know very well, right there by the Mauna Lani. And they told me my split at 319, and I go, go. Whoa. Thank you, Pele. You gave me all that tailwind. I'll never run a 319 again. And I went ahead and finished, because, you know, in that event, it's just amazing what you learn about yourself when you're running from Hawi back to Kona. Now, we did the bike. So when I'm in. When I'm in the World Championship, Charlie, I'll just tell you one of my tips and tricks. Don't complain at all. Because if I start to complain, I'm telling myself, I've run this four times and I survived and I still know my first name, so suck it up a little bit. Feel the love. Headwind, crosswind. It doesn't matter. You just have to get there. So in that event, it's just gotten Legs. I went back in 2013, I think I was eighth. In 2019 I went back again and I was inducted to the Ultraman hall of Fame and I was eighth again as the oldest competitor. So. And that's got legs. So the Ultraman now is literally all over the world.

It's an incredible event and it's definitely one for my bucket list. Unfortunately by doing these interviews and I's race bucket list and experience bucket list just expands faster than we've got any chance of complete. But it's got to be one on there. It's. Yeah. Have you coached people through an Ultraman as well?

Yes, I have. I've coached people through the Ultiman in Arizona, I've coached people through the Ultraman in Florida and I think that is really shows me the, the flexibility of our tried out platform, how you can do that. And I know that I've used that in other events like Norseman to work with people that want to do the ultra distance. But I think there's a couple things on that as I wrap it up on the Ultraman. The nice thing about the Ultraman is it's very small, it's about 30 people, the course is open so your crew leapfrogs just like we did in 1980 over on Oahu. But it really bonds you as a group because you can feel the ohana, the crews help each other out. You are going to be competitive, but it's one of the races where you can start it and stop it three times and for some people, they don't want that. They want like a hundred meter run. Like I get in the starting blocks, I put my head down, I hear the gun and I go, no, you get to start and stop three days. So a lot can and will happen. But it's that wake up call on day three. Like oh my goodness, I, from the, from the neck down, I can't feel a thing and I'm going to run 52 miles. And it's amazing because just like anything and it really inspires you to say when you look at the body types of everyone in the Ultraman, they're, they're, they're not like, you know, they're going to be bodybuilders or something like that. Again, they're not going to be on the COVID of Sports Illustrated, but they've got a good mind, they've got a good spirit and they've got a good crew. So I want to encourage everyone, take the gifts you have, surround yourself with good people, have that positive growth mindset and take it. Anything you do in life, sports, athletics, profession, anything.

Amazing, Amazing. So much good advice in there. So when you, you had a spell, I think after you left, after you finished being a pro, where you went into ultra running, didn't you? We've had some amazing ultra on him. One of the books, in fact, the book that got me from describing running as sport with all the fun bits taken out to becoming a massive fan of running, was Born to Run. And you got the opportunity to race against the Tarahumara in the famous race that's talked about in Born to Run. So tell us a little bit about your how ultra running changed your perspective on endurance sport and how racing the Tarahumara also changed that perspective.

Oh, yeah. And I'm, you know, I'm so honored. When I look back again, I think I was literally at the right place at the right time with the Tahara Maras. So I, I needed to leave the, the status of a, of a pro that was making a little bit of money because we had, you know, the family was in the plan and I had to work full time. And that was all good. But what I learned is that as I traveled in the summer as an educator with my wife, we would go to different places. So I was in Leadville, Colorado, of all places, at 10,000ft and walking through this small and there was something called the Leadville 100 store. And I walked in with my wife and I started looking at results and I go, oh my gosh, the guy that won it, Jim o', Neal, I raced that guy. I went to college with him. He won this event. Maybe I shouldn't have saw that because I went back that night and during, you know, as we're at the campfire, I'm thinking, I think I might, I might see what happens. So the next day I got up a little bit early. I'm at 10,000ft in elevation. I ran around this lake. It was about a 10 mile run. I came back, my wife's said, you don't look good. And I said, no, I don't feel good. I mean, I literally sat in a chair all day long. And I'm thinking, okay, you got your butt handed to you, you're at 10,000ft and if you were going to do this, you'd have to do 90 more miles. It's not going to happen. But you know what? When I see a challenge, Charlie, I bite down real hard and I say, I'm going to go for that. Don't tell me I can't do Something because I'm really stubborn at times and very determined. So all of a sudden it was just like kind of like Oahu. I said, okay, the best way to get experience, jump into a 100 mile run. Don't, don't kind of, you know, wa. I entered a race six weeks before this one called the Hard Rock. And the Hard Rock is kind of a sister to Leadville for our listeners. This is real. This starts at 10,000ft in Silverton, Colorado. It's 33,000 vertical feet of climbing over 100 miles. So you can look at that Mount Everest, okay? You add another a few more feet and that's what you're going, but you got to come back down. So it was climbing 10 mountain passes, 100 mile run, and literally within the first three miles of that race, you have to cross a stream. And there wasn't something, Warwick, to keep your feet dry, you have to grab a rope. So everyone has to go together. My strategy was maybe not the best strategy, but I felt what I should do is I'm just going to stay with the person that won it last year as long as I can until I get dropped. So that's exactly what I did. And literally at mile 30, he was bleeding out his nose, he was vomiting, and he turned to me, he says, kurt, I can't go on. And I'm like, okay. And I just kind of hung in there, but I went up and down and up and down and up and down. And I think I was at mile 94. So it starts at 7 in the morning. I went all night long. I met two. Two people. That one person was actually on Mount Everest when there was that disaster back in, what, 93 or something where all those people died on Everest. And he's telling me all about Everest and how he was up there and. And I'm thinking, I live in San Diego. I'm a beach guy. This guy's like at, you know, 28, 000ft in elevation. I am with the wrong group. And anyway, I started hallucinating at mile 94. And I had a really hard time staying on the course, but I finished sixth in that event. Very, very pleased. And all of a sudden it's like, okay, now we're going to go to Leadville six weeks later. So came back to San Diego, did a little bit of training, jumped back, and with my. My sons went to Leadville and then the Indians were there. So for our listeners, try to imagine this. Here you have Indians that are very primitive, that live in the Copper Canyon, and Mexico. They show up to the carbo loading party, smoking cigarettes, drinking beer. They threw all the pasta out and they ate the meat in the meantime, the sponsor for them was Rockport Shoes. Now Rockport Shoes, I don't think they're as big as they were as compared to, you know, today, as compared to the 1990s. But part of the deal was they were, gave them some, some money or something and they had to wear these shoes. Well, the Indians, they were smart. So what they did is they have their sandals, those huaraches. They had gone over to the junkyard and they had freshened them all up. And I think all of them ran with their Rockport shoes to about mile 10. And all of them at that point tossed the shoes, they put on their huaraches and they were chasing Ann, tracing who was going off the front. And it's an out and back course. And I could see those guys, they wear headbands, they have their white robes, they do a lot of fart. Like they play a game with a wooden ball. So they're going back and forth and back and forth. So literally at that point I could see Juan Herrera just passed Ann Trason. Ann Tracin, the female, was the legend. She was in second, I was in fourth until about mile, it was mile 87 and then two of the Indians just passed me. It was like one o' clock in the morning. I came into the next aid station, my brother in law said, you know, you're not doing well, you're in deep poop. And I go, what do you mean? And he goes, well, the two Indians just passed you. They drank two beers and had two bean burritos. Now I, I want to advise my listeners. If you want to have a wild ride, go to 10,000ft, drink two, two beers, eat two burritos, and then try to run 13 miles. I knew for me that was not going to happen. But I said, I'm just going to hang in there. I'm going to stay with my plan. I finished sixth overall. And I'm like, oh my goodness. I was shocked. I'm going, how, how did I pull that one off? Here I am with all the Indians. I'm there with Anne Tracyn. I'm some triathlete, converted trail runner from San Diego. So for me, little did I realize the book Born to Run really is all about the Indians. And I was just, again, just at the right place at the right time.

What an incredible story experience and just, yeah, I mean, magical. And I know the book just talks about how they just glide by you like a ghost and just. Yeah, must have been incredible. So, obviously I know you through the Trident world as Coach K, and you must have been coached by so many different people over the years. What, what. Which coach kind of had the greatest impact on you? And also how have you applied what you've learned from other coaches to your. The coaching that you give your athletes now?

Yeah, and I, I think as I look back in time, I'm probably no different than our listeners. If you really try to look back and say, who are the three people that had the biggest impact on you? Hopefully it was your parents. I was in a very tough situation between my mom and D9 different marriages. So my childhood was very rocky, but I can look back. It was my high school swimming coach. There was something magical about him. He just looked really cool. He had a nice big mustache. He had these Ray Ban sunglasses. He had a really nice car. He skied, he surfed. His wife was beyond gorgeous. And I'm an inner city kid. Like, I'll be the first person in my family to graduate from high school, and I want to be like this guy. But he had the character, he had the charisma. He was spontaneous. He could get into the heart of anybody. And he gave me so much responsibility. He leaned on me and challenged me. And because of what he taught me about grit, about perseverance, about character, about working hard, about being a leader, to this day, I'm beyond grateful. I think I was just at that point in my life from 15 to 17. For males, we can all look back. I've been told that male brain doesn't really mature till it's 40, but I know for me, he was again at the right place at the right time to teach me about, you know, health and, and wellness and eating well and, and just traveling and doing everything and have a good significant other. And I think to this day, those are things that, you know, they say the best time to, to plant the tree was 20 years ago. Well, for me, he did it when I was 15. And I think in doing that, I've taken that. But along the way, again, I think I've just had people that have been there to help me to open up doors, that have mentored me, that have guided me to be a better person, to be a better coach. And I think in doing that, it's. It's being real, being authentic and, and really having that humility that I want to be like a piece of clay that I can be shaped and molded and, and really Try for listeners, they can maybe appreciate this that you know, if you throw out a pickle to somebody, a pickle is a pickle, but a cucumber is something different because the cucumber is something that's a little bit lively, it's fresh, it's ready to go when you get the pickle. Depending upon where you get the pickle from, it can be a little bit sour, it could be a little bit. The composition is broken up. So I wanted to be considered kind of cucumber and, and do that and, and when doors continue to open for me, it really reinforced me that I'm going in a positive direction and my faith and everything that I was meant to do this. And little did I realize that back in when I was, you know, pro and I worked part time at a community college, I was a swimming instructor, track and field coach, cross country coach. I never imagined I was really preparing myself for the work I'm doing today. That it's kind of like that boomerang or it's that circle circle that the more you give, the more you get. It's come back to me. So it's multiple people in my life that has shaped me and I think also just a real stable marriage that my wife Kelly, or I call her Queen K. She's references that, that after 46 years she's that stabilizer that I think because of our relationships I'm a little bit more spontaneous, a little bit more right brain. She's extremely linear and keeps me on the rails and I think reinforcing me to do to, to be a good person, to be humble, to be competitive, to do the heavy lifting and get back and I think that's really win for me that just doing that relationship and I'm just beyond grateful. And then our tride out family, I've got so many awesome coaches and people that I just interface with and every day I'm fulfilled. So I've got, you know, every day is a gift, every day is an opportunity.

Amazing. And, and coming on to that, it's a lovely segue into the try dot community and what Tridot is doing. I've been using Tridot. So I originally met Jeff in, in Kona in 2022. So I was there watching as because Claire and some other mates were racing on the Thursday and the Saturday which again we're going to come back to. What, what, what was it that you. That drew you into Tridot? And how do you think AI is going to transform the world of triathlon.

The years to come Yeah, I think for me that as I got back into racing right around two team, I didn't quite know about Tride yet, but I was kind of a volume junkie for lack of a better term. Because you can imagine in the 1980s, you're, you're, you're out there every day with Scott Tinley, you're out there with Melena, you're out there with Mark Allen and all you're hearing these guys are biking insane miles, they're doing 400 miles a week, they're swimming 30, 000 yards, they're running 80 or 90. And if you're going to be like them, you're going to have to do. And I was on a lot of group privates, those guys and it was insane. And it's doing that time after time. So I feel figured, hey, I'm older now but I'll kind of just do the same thing. I'll just do those types of workouts and all of a sudden I'm online and all of a sudden somehow it popped up like this. Tried out. I, I met with a gentleman, John Mayfield, and we started talking. He said just give it a shot, then you know, you might want to coach. So I started out in 2016. I did three Ironman distance events over nine weeks. For me, as I started to understand how the platform works, the proof was in the pudding. And I know that in every race I did my run off the bike got faster and faster and faster. At that point, because I was using it myself, I said that this is really a no brainer and then really starting to see the evolution of tridot that the platform we have today wasn't the same as we had in 2016. But if I just look at it, generally speaking, I think the big benefit is when you're looking at engagement for an athlete, you're not going to get stimulated. Secondly, you've got so many checks and balances that are objective because we all have blind spots, we all have philosophies, we all have these favorite things we like to do. So if I'm doing that as an athlete, I'm really making sure that I'm developing my stamina, developing my speed, being injury free. And then the beauty of me working with so many athletes and then working with so many coaches is I get a really broad view of the platform form and how to use it and how to make little tweaks for every athlete, but educate the athlete on why it's going to work. And I tell people that sometimes the question is, well can you coach me without the try it out platform? And I'm very honest, I said we could possibly do that. But I'm going to be very candid with you. I'd have to charge you three times more because I'd have to create those programs. I'm going to do a lot of guessing. It's like I'm putting a recipe together. I don't quite have the recipe but I'm just going to guess how many things I put in to make it come out just right. Right. I might hit it, I might miss it, you might get injured, you might be over trained, you might be under trained for the race. I'm just going to guess on the best thing to get you prepared. But I, I've got no objective metrics and I think the complexity of tried out, when you really understand it, you shouldn't doubt it. You can doubt it a little bit. You're going to have those days that you could do a little bit more. But as I look at even myself because I use the platform every day, I can definitely say, you know, I'm looking at a main set on the bike or the switch swim, I can do a little bit more. But it's funny because I've done that occasionally when I go a little bit off the rails, I come back to why did I do that as a male? I wasn't using my brain, I was using my reptilian brain. I wasn't thinking clearly with my head. I should have listened to the AI to build in that recovery. But I think when I look at trying to reduce injuries, race well, love the sport, have a lot of variety Also keep in mind I throw in a lot of strength training, mobility work, yoga, yoga and I think the yoga has made a big difference me so I supplement that. But I know that it's made a huge, huge difference. And I think as, as we saw, we just had our virtual summit last Saturday. I'm continuing to be a student of our platform because our, our development team is always lifting up the hood. Show us more about race X or the platform and then when you're in mastermind groups, you're hearing the best from all of our coaches of what they're using. So in a way where a student at heart, we want to be engaged, we want to help. But then what I do, as soon as I get out of those meetings, I apply that to my athletes to make sure you know that they're getting the best they can. And again that kind of goes into that longevity piece that they're going to be able to race longer and be injury free. I've got one athlete that is 80 years old that is ranked number one in the world. He just had a great race in kona. He was fourth. He was second in Tapau at the 70.3 World Championship. So no matter where you are in the spectrum for our listeners and what your interests are, we can make those adjustments that you can follow it yourself. But I think also it opens the conversation to knowing the platform well. But what, what are the benefits of having a coach?

So yeah, what are the, what are the benefits of having a coach on top? So I think that's a great question to answer next is because I mean I understand it and I talk a lot about AI and talk about humanizing the human and digitalizing the data. So what. But for you, why, why would you have a coach if the AI is building the whole training process program?

Yeah, and, and I think that is the question. That's the question I've posed to our coaches and our mastermind groups and generally speaking, what they've told me, I just listen. They said that an athlete approve at least 30% when they have the right coach. And this is why I've learned too, even with our Ironman U, our modules is that people can follow a program and I think that's awesome and we have to look at it to say that is looking at your physical ability to put stress on your body, recover and adapt. That's important. But now when we look at the sport forth, you've got three different disciplines. You've got strength training, you've got transitions, you've got nutrition, you've got recovery, you've got the mental approach to competing, to doing well, to goal set. So really it's the art and science of, you know, being able to coach that you're using the science of AI, the algorithms and everything that tried out, you know, has at the same time you're using the EQ of someone that is serving as your guide, your Sherpa to keep you on rails, to really open it up to where do you want to go on this journey? I'm going to meet you right there to make sure that working on that. So it's really. And then really understanding the why of the athlete. What is your purpose? You know, when you look at your values, you look at your beliefs, you look at your core values, everything that you're doing. I think I'm, I'm very fortunate, maybe gifted to a certain extent that, that I've done a lot of Professional development. I do it every single day. And it's really getting into the minds of the athletes because I tell people, people, if you let me get into your hearts, I will get into your head. And there's. As an educator, I worked a lot with, with kids that were disadvantaged and kids that, that were from various ethnicities and, and I could look at them and be able to do that. Even my son sometimes, and even other students, they would, they would come to me and say, you shouldn't do that. And I said, why not? Because that's a gangster. And how do you relate with a gangster because you're not black? I said, because they can pick up on my vibe. They're very intuitive. So I think with athletes, what I try to do is make sure that I can get in their hearts, get in their heads, develop that trust. So we take a coach and an athlete. That's really. Charlie, it's 4, it's 8, it's 12. Because so many of my athletes that, that I'm just so honored, my retention rate's high. But even my 80 year old, he tells me, he says, I can follow the plan. I'm an accountant. I have very, very. I can do that. But I need you to come alongside me, to get in my head, to keep me on the rails, to talk about confidence, to talk about nutrition, a better education, me. And when someone is so real like that, it's like, oh, my gosh, I'm going to work 10 times harder for these athletes because they want to grow and they want to scale and this day and age. You know what? Coaching is kind of the thing. If you don't have a coach, then you're missing the boat. I've got coach right here. 46 years. She told me, she tells me all the time, I love you so much. I will tell you one thing. You are a work in progress. I don't tell her to pack sand. I don't tell her, hey, no, no, no. You know what? I actually listen.

I think that's brilliant. And I think it's, it's so right. And I think a lot of the industry sees AI as a threat, and yet actually it's the. To be a better coach, isn't it? And I think that's, that's really powerful. We've kind of touched on this female male thing in Kona, and I really want to make sure we cover that before I kind of go to the last two questions that we always want to wrap up with in two. In 2022, I was there watching Claire watching some other friends and it was such an amazing experience. I mean, obviously would have loved to have been racing there. And I thought it just, it was so magical because everybody got to see somebody else race, race. But obviously also there's been previous years where the guys and the girls have raced on the same day. So what format do you think the world Championships should be going forward and why?

Yeah, I remember 2022 vividly. I was one of those males that because of my age, I was racing with a woman. So that was that. That was an interesting day. That was a day where I would say, honestly, I know there were two separate races, but that still felt like the Ironman World championship. Because I was with women, if I didn't know anything and I was just out there racing, to me it was just a kind of a normal traditional Kona race. At the same time, I think the men, from what I heard, were at a real disadvantage that, you know, the, the, the volunteers and the aid stations and everything, they were pretty strung out and they didn't quite do that. And you know, I didn't race that race, so I can't give you context, but I did race nice. And I know racing nice, which is man, that was the missing piece. When I was in Nice, not just being not in Kona but racing in Nice, it just meant it just didn't feel the same same. And, and I think as Ironman has done a very, very good job that they've actually surveyed people. But I think the. The mass majority of people are really wanting to get everything back together again. Meaning the men and women make it a. How do we say this nicely? A legitimate world championship that we know that we've learned that from the business side that various races, depending upon the race you're at, that roll down, rolls down really, really, really far that there's people. We learned this in east with our one woman that they did get a slot to nice. But maybe when you look at their finish time on the course they finished on and looking at nice, they just couldn't scale that by course. And I think again, they proved us wrong because I think really char, if we go back to when they raced well, it was actually in 2023, highest success rate. All the women got out of the water. I was there, I had five athletes. I was really excited and pumped. But I think that as we look at 2026, it would be. Be the ultimate to really get the men and women back together. But 2500, 2700 people and I think in doing that Will bring back the ohana, will bring back that world Championship feeling again.

And do you think that should be in Kona every year, or do you think that should be alternate between Kona and Nice?

Yeah, I'm probably going to be a little biased or some people might give me a thumbs up. There are some people might give me a thumbs down. But I think that there's something about finishing on Alihi Drive, and I don't know if you experienced that, that, because you go back to 1981 to say, as I look at all these legends, they took on the same air that I took in. This is a very sacred last hundred yards. And you can try to recreate it somewhere else. But I think it takes years and years and years and years to develop that tradition. And I think in Kona, that tradition has been established that you can look back and say, hey, all these people, I'm one of those things. And you know what's really cool? Cool is that no one's going to ever be able to take that away from you. You can lose your car, your house can burn down, you can lose your job, but you finished on Alihi Drive at the World Championship. And to me, if I had one little wish and I had my little magic wands, I would try to find a way to have everyone who aspires to train for that to do that event right there. So I'm gonna say it's Kona for me.

I think. I think there's so many people, like, I was never, never bothered about racing in the World Championship. That's not true. I was. I was bothered about racing in the World Championships, but I was bothered about racing the world Championships in Kona. I probably could have got a slot for Nice the year before, but it didn't even go down, go to the ceremony, because it didn't. It wasn't what. What I was looking for. I wanted the Kona slot. And it kind of. What you don't want is to devalue, you know, so that every other year that it's what people are going after, which, yeah, so it's really, really difficult. Difficult. But, yeah, it would be magical if we could go back to that. But then equally appreciating that, like, if you live in South Africa, it costs you an absolute fortune and a huge amount of time to get to Kona. So you kind of like, yeah, it's. It's difficult. So we have a tradition on the podcast where we finish off with two questions. The first is, and I know you're really well read in the personal development space. So I'm really intrigued to hear where you're going to go with this one. But what books have you found, found have helped you on your journey? Or do you find yourself recommending to your athletes regularly?

Yeah, I think in preparation for this, I've kind of made a list that I'll, I'll reference here. And there's no particular order, but I think when I look at everything that I listen to, from podcasts to books to journals, I'm going to go ahead and start. The first book is called Good Energy and Good Energy, it's, It's written by Dr. Means and I think it gives you a really good perspective on metabolic health. There are some things in there that maybe are a little bit extreme, but if you look at it, the overarching themes, it's going to be valuable for any athlete or any coach. The second book that I'm almost done with is called Performance Paradox and the author is Persino. He was a student of someone named Carol Dweck, Dr. Carol Gweck. And she was a person that really started with that growth mindset. But it really teaches you a lot about performance versus practice. And I think it's just, it's really opened my eyes like this, this guy is really, really brain of how to toggle back and forth, forth and find that sweet spot. The third book is written by Liz Wiseman and it's called Impact Players. And I know that I referenced that during our Try it out certification program. Liz has written several books from multipliers, Rookie Smarts. You can look her up online. She's got ongoing professional development. Impact Players is huge for anyone no matter where they are, especially our professionals that are on. But someone that really wants to, to learn a lot about how to make a big difference and be that impact player. The next one I'm going to add is Hidden Potential is by an author named Adam Grant. So as I look at my icons that are out there right now, Adam Grant is profound and I think as a coach, as a person to really say so, I have more potential than I'm using. What can I do? That is an awesome read. You're not going to go wrong there. And the last one that I'll go ahead and wrap up is a book called Optimal. And Optimal is written by Daniel Goldman. And Daniel is someone that has really shaped me with my curiosity on emotional intelligence. But he really kind of talks about, define in an optimal day. He talks about eq, he talks about, you know, that intelligence is not not fixed. A lot of people think, well that's just a smart kid. Well, kid is really smart. But we've got hard working kids too. But it's knowing how to use your IQ and your eq. And I think when I look at success in life, I try to always ask what makes a person successful? That we can, you know, that we can all have, you know, shades of gray on. But I think you need a certain amount of IQ and knowledge. But when you look at Bloom's taxonomy and you start to move up and you look at the corporate world or you look at even competing, I think honestly the people that have that EQ like a Mark Allen. See Mark was a great athlete. But see Mark is really good in his head. And you go back to him and Dave Scott battling and out. That wasn't a physical game, that was in line game. And it's very clear when you look at Iron wars, who can hang on 10 more minutes, who can say, no, I am not going to bail on this one, no matter what. So I think EQ is something that boy, you can never learn enough about and then continue to apply that to your people that you're around with your family members, your professional, your athletes, your, you know, circle of influence.

Well, that is a brilliant five additions to my my reading list. And I love Adam Grant as an author, but I haven't read read Hidden Potential. Again, love Daniel Goldman as an author. Haven't read Optimal and the other three I hadn't even heard of, although I have read Mindset by Carol Dweck. So that sounds like five amazing recommendations. Thank you for that. They will all be going on the reading list. The last question is always asked by the previous guest on the podcast without knowing who the next guest is going to be. And the previous guest was Ed Chang, one of the founders at Varlo, which is a sports apparel company company. And Ed asked the question, if you could have a meal with any person from any time in history, who would it be and why?

I'm probably gonna go with Carlos Santana. Interesting.

And why is that?

Well, I've got about five people I'd invite to dinner, but if it really came down to I only had a certain amount of a good English meal, I would invite Santana because his story is remarkable and I think music is a universal language. And to see his energy, to see his passion. They call him Carlos the Collaborator. And as I read his autobiography, it's just incredible. And I know that there's something about his music, about his vibe that still today just resonates with people, but he's just filled with humility. He's very spiritual, he's very holistic. And I think there's something we were talking about the other day. When you start to experience the blues in any way, shape or form, in life, short term, long term, what brings you back? And the consensus from everyone, there are two things. It's movement and music. So when you think about that, and I've been to enough of his concerts that how can someone start a song and in 30 seconds everyone is literally standing up? I mean, I've been to Liverpool, I've been in the Cavern, and I'm thinking, I love the Beatles back in the day, but someone that can be able to do that with the energy, that vibe, to me, it's like he has left his legacy and. And again, he must be so fulfilled. Humble beginnings of where he started as a person and what he's doing today. So I always look up to Santana as one of my icons, to say, Carlos, you are the man. I just love you so much, my friend. So let's sit down, we'll have some rice and beans, you know, maybe an adult beverage, you know, and some salsa and. And tell me some stories.

Amazing. Well, that's just another book I've just added to the reading list. Again, this. You're gonna have to stop this conversation or I'll never get through it. But, no, that's brilliant and I love that. And I actually. I don't know much about Carlos Santana. I love his music, but I don't know much about it. So I'm definite going to go through that as well. Kurt, it's been an absolute pleasure. I look forward to bumping into you in Kona or Nice over the coming year or two, and on the Try Not Journey as well. I think it's been. It's been absolutely brilliant chatting to you. It's also been brilliant getting to know you, but also just the stories of that you've got. And like you said, right place, right time, but also right mindset to be in the right place at the right time, which I think, and take those opportunities up, which is absolutely the key. So a huge thank you for everything you've done in the Try not world, but also in this conversation.

Yeah. And Charlie, I just want to thank you that I'm just honored and tickled to, you know, be with you today and your listeners. And it's long overdue. And we're, we're partners, we tried out with our sport. Let's keep growing it and Know that again I'm available if at any time for anything. So count me in. I'm always 100% in. So let's keep on this incredible journey of raising that far and to save.

Me a job afterwards. Where's the best place for people that are listening to this to track you down?

Some of our listeners don't go on Facebook but you could reach me on Facebook or just, you know, email. It would just be Kurt k u r t.madden m a d d e n@tryout.com I am on Instagram too. And again for people that are in the tried out circle, I'm on that coach hub and community hub.

Amazing, Brilliant. Thank you so much. So what did you make of the interview with Kurt Madden?

It was a fantastic one and sorry to have missed it. I was going to say the history behind his career as an athlete but also just all of that kind of life experience in the world of endurance, you know, whether it's triathlon or ultra running. Just amazing to listen back actually to the story.

He's got incredible longevity in the sport, hasn't it? To do one of the first Ironmans back in Oahu in 1980 right the way through to doing Kona in 2024. And actually when I, I was speaking to him separately, I think his plan is to go back and do the next Kona in two years because it'll be the 50th anniversary, I think of Ironman and at that point he'll be in his 70s. So it just shows how amazing the people can carry on doing this stuff for years and years and years and yeah, absolutely brilliant. And what did you make of his ultra running experiences as well? And racing the Tarahumara?

What an experience as well to race with the Tahoe Martin Mara. I, I think his journey through endurance is just, it's inspiring as well. And he's. And it seems like he's just never stopped. He's. And I think, I can't remember the word he used, not lucky but he just was at the right place at the right time. I think that's. Was that the word he used?

I think yes.

And just almost slipped into things. And I think that's can be very true of business as well, can't it? Like you're every. You've got everything ready almost and suddenly opportunities arise that you can now say yes to. So I think, yeah, I think think opportunity was almost at his doorstep the whole time. But maybe he was also a person that says.

Yes, I was going to say exactly that I think yes, some people would say he was in the right place at the right time, but he was also saying yes to those opportunities that gave him those experiences. So that's what was really inspiring. I also think he's as good as an example as anyone we've had on the podcast with a growth mindset in terms of I'm going to go off and read these books, I'm going to learn these things, I'm going to learn from these people. And now I can really see certainly from he's not my coach within, trying, tried out. Obviously I've got Willen Raya as my coach, but in what he feeds back into the tridot community, he's got this incredible growth mindset of we've just got to continue to learn and do this. And, and actually I think it's demonstrated by the fact that he's embraced the AI within coaching. Like you'd think an older coach and an older athlete might be more resistant to something like that, but he's absolutely embraced that and I think it's. Yeah, that's absolutely inspiring.

Yeah.

And it's a great episode to wrap up season eight, isn't it? Like so much good wisdom in there and it's brilliant seasons. We've had some amazing guests on season eight and we've got some amazing guests lined up. Nine as well.

We have some amazing guests lined up. So yeah, this season's been great with such a variety of different people as well.

It has. There's been a good mix of business and, and endurance and athletes and coaches and yeah, and season nine will be very much the same. More business, more amazing world champion athletes. We've got line lined up, we've got some of the world's best lined up for this season. So I know you're gonna absolutely love it. And in between that, we'll do a few short episodes while we wait and get ourselves organized to record all of the season nine episodes. We'll do a few short episodes to do a bit of a catch up on what we thought were the key takeaways from season eight and a few more seeds of excitement for season nine. Glad that you're back fighting fit, Claire. And for everyone at home. Home. Keep on training. If you want us to keep getting amazing guests onto the Business of Endurance podcast. We don't ask for you to pay for us. We don't ask for patronage. All we ask for is that you subscribe to the podcast, ideally on Apple, give us a five star rating because it shows us you care. And if you've got time, leave us a comment. One word is fine. Something like inspiring or amazing or something like that. But we really do appreciate it and it will help us to continue to deliver amazing guests on what we hope you find to be an amazing podcast. Thanks very much.