The Inside Track on Triathlon with Tim Heming

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I think that's where we have seen a lot of the Ironman marathon times last year in the professional ranks come down. And I think that actually from an amateur perspective, there's probably even more to be sliced off that that was Tim.

Hemming and this episode is the inside track on triathlon. In this episode of the triathlon podcast, I got the opportunity to chat to the journalist Tim Hemming from 2020 Triathlon that absolutely lives and breathes the sport. In fact, he'd probably struggle to fill the back of a stamp with what and who. Tim doesn't know about the world of triathlon, so I got the opportunity to explore with him, you know, what's been going on in the world of triathlon during lockdown and throughout the crazy year that is 2020, the future of triathlon as a result of COVID 19. But also I wanted to chat to him about the standout products that he sees in the world of swimming, running and cycling, because let's face it, he must see pretty much everything that goes through that as well as what us amateurs, age groupers, whatever you want to call them, can learn from the professionals, whether that be with regards to recovery or sleep or whatever it is. I also wanted an update from Tim on the Olympics and whether we can expect to see the Team GB competing in Tokyo in triathlon. So if you love triathlon, I know you're going to love this conversation with Tim Hemming. This podcast is brought to you by Ember, which make British biltong, beef jerky and charcuterie. I'm a big fan of biltong. I don't eat a lot of meat, but if I'm going to eat a meat treat, then some biltong with a pint works really well for me. Discovered in South Africa years and years ago. And I particularly love Embers garlic and rosemary biltong and their chili rub biltong. Both absolutely delicious. And what I really like about Ember is it's a much lighter biltong than a lot of the ones I've had. So go to embersnacks.com which is spelled E M B E R embersnacks.com and give it a try. Honestly, if you like biltong and you eat meat, then this is a great one to try. And at the end of this podcast I'll have a discount code for you as well. This podcast is also brought to you by by the Tribeathlon app. Now, have you ever thought, well, wouldn't it be really cool if I could find other people that wanted to train at the same time that I could train? For example, I've got a great group of guys I cycle with on a Saturday, but I'd really love to do more of my cycling on a Friday afternoon. It just works better for my work and my family life. So what I would love is to find a group of people that can cycle with me at the same pace as me but on a Friday afternoon. Well, the Tribeathlon app helps you find like minded people to train with. Whether it's running, cycling, swimming or triathlon based events, you can find other people to train with at your pace and at your suitable time. So go to tribathlon.com, download the app and you can find people to train with to build your tribe.

So Tim, welcome to the triumphathlon plus podcast. I'm really excited to kind of learn more about you, learn more about your job, learn about you've got this amazing career inside the world of triathlon which I'm quite envious about. So but for those people that don't know you, why don't you start off by telling us a little bit about you, the job that you perform, but also your personal interests in personal journey in the triathlon world.

Okay, thanks Charlie. Nice to, nice to be with you. You mentioned there about, you know, the, the intrigue of being inside the sport. Perhaps a few people that are inside the sport may not agree with you that it's that intriguing once you actually get there. But I'll give you a little bit of, a little bit of background. To me, I suppose I grew up and I've always, I've always loved sport, I suppose I'm very typical in that sense and a lot of people would, would resonate with a lot of people. And then I, through my youth I pretty much played football and football and tennis. I started running when I was working in London and it was a way of cutting down the commute. So kind of the team sports took a bit of a backseat at that point. Started running and then I kind of fell into triathlon after that. My first triathlon was in, oh, this is as recently as 20, 2010 I think, which I did Blenheim, which is often a rite of passage of people stepping into triathlon. And then, and at the time as well, it was, it was the time when it was the emergence of the Brownlees after the Beijing Olympics. Triathlon was beginning to get on the radar over, over, you know, in the UK I suppose more and more And I was working at News UK at the time, which was News International, then a journalist and I tried to where, where possible, tried to kind of get on the, I suppose get on the sort of triathlon wagon that was. Was picking up a bit of speed back then and do as much reporting as I could. It obviously wasn't a mainstream sport, but if I could get it in the mainstream newspapers, I felt it gave it a bit of a boost. I was super keen, super eager back then as well. So I did more of my, you know, to compete and did more triathlon myself and got up to iron distance I suppose fairly quickly and then probably down the other side even quicker.

Which Ironmans did you do?

So I did in 2011 I did challenge Henley. I did. I Did Wimble ball 70.3 A couple of times and then I did the Outlaw the following year, which must have been 2012 in Nottingham. And then since then I've done other things I suppose over the years and a few halves and that sort of thing. Yeah, whether I'll ever do a full distance one again, I'm not so sure. I realized what. I figured out pretty quickly what I would need to do to have to go quicker at full distance and it involved quite a lot of investments. So not financial, but investment in myself. Yeah, yeah, well, probably both to be fair. Probably both. Although, you know, maybe not as much monetary investment. Some people think maybe that is a bit of a misnomer when we talk about triathlon. I started writing for 220 triathlon. Must be writing for them for about eight or nine years now actually. Remember my first feature. So I've been sort of doing stuff for the mainstream, mainstream press and got a phone call from the editor there, said, you want to go? This was right after the London Olympics in 2012 at Halcyon Summer. Said, would you like to go up for a cycle ride in Yorkshire? And so I think my first feature for 220 was a ride out and like a coffee ride in the Yorkshire Dales with Alistair and Jonathan Brownlee probably, you know, a fortnight after they picked up their gold medals and then, you know, a chat about that and it was, you know, people queuing up their autographs left, right and center. So it was. That was a lot of fun. And then I've done a column for them from about the last six years. So we've probably done nearly 100 different columns now, the month for Month magazine, always trying to find something different, different angle on the sport, whatever that might be. And we've Covered everything over that time. So, yeah, that's always a. That's always a fun thing. Thinking of something new to go at.

Well, particularly in these challenging times, I should think you really have to sort of scratch your head during lockdown at certain times to find new stories.

There's always, there's always stuff out there, I suppose, from a competition. The thing about lockdown is been trying to pitch it right because the fact there hasn't been competition is one thing, but the fact that competition certainly in those early months of lockdown just wasn't on anyone's radar as even being important was a main thing. So it's like, do we really want to write about, you know, do we really want to be right about races being cancelled when the headlines every day are the death toll? However, you know, we can argue obviously the merits of reporting like that. But. But yeah, that was certainly kind of in my psyche was thinking, you know, where does the, where does sport sit at this point? And I think that probably dampened my enthusiasm to write about competition then.

And so just loitering on COVID 19 just for a minute. Before we kind of come back to your own stuff. What are the things that you think the sport has done really well during COVID 19 and what do you think that they perhaps hasn't done so well at.

From in terms of the virtual digital type idea and trying to get things going? I think there's been a lot of positives there. You know, a few examples. For example, the professional Triathletes Organization, which is a group fund, effectively an organization funded by Mike Moritz. It almost feels quite altruistic, but they basically paid a lot of professional triathletes wages where they haven't been competing. Maybe not the wages, but they still, they, you know, they turned, they paid out their two and a half million dollar prize pot early. So they were definitely trying to look after the professional side of the sport there. That was very good. Some of the online stuff's been good in terms of, you know, the likes of let's pick out someone like Lucy Charles Barkley and Reece Charles Barclay as well, doing things like their online videos and stuff that people can get engaged with. They. There's been Zwift workouts that people can follow and hop on and have a ride. There's been the likes of Jan Frodeno's been doing his online Ironman. So there's all of that sort of stuff on one hand. On the other side, I've written a couple of articles about when we'll try get Back in, back in business, if you like, from an events perspective. And I've seen and sat in on some of the calls with British Triathlon, which have been roundtables with all the event organisers in the UK and seen the efforts they've had to go to, to try and unpick really the tangled web from the Department of Culture Media Sport who, you know, quote unquote, following the science, which changes every, seemingly every, updates every five minutes. And they've really, the British triathlon as a governing body have done their absolute utmost to try and bring it back in a safe and responsible manner. And I know governing bodies tend to get a lot of stickers, but certainly the efforts there were absolutely laudable. So, you know, there's a couple of things there. Yeah. On the probably, one I should mention, which is probably for anyone who's been competing, would be probably top of the agenda has been the whole, I know, riot around cancelled races, refunds around races and the fallout from that. Some race organizers have done a great job on that. I think we've landed on the thing that communication was always the key. It may not be possible to give people full refunds, but if you communicate the reasons why that you can't do that, you still need to be there in the future and do your best by the athlete, then that's great. It clearly gets much more difficult when organizations become bigger, such as Ironman. And you know, you could argue that Ironman have had a PR disaster in the way that they have handled the cancellations of their races and, you know, nobody will get a refund and many people are disappointed in the, you know, reallocation choice that they get offered.

Yeah, I mean, I'd heard Ironman criticized by people I've trained with before lockdown about their kind of cancellation and changing policy. But yeah, I think it's, I think it's really interesting because we had Mark Shaw, who organizes the Dam Buster and the Vitruvian Truck on the podcast and it must be so difficult when it's kind of, you know, it's a relatively small business, but you've got to understand that your competitors are your customers and ultimately how you treat them through that period is going to be determine the future of your business, isn't it? And so it must be really difficult for ones that size and for businesses the size of Iron Man.

Yeah, I mean, absolutely. I think it's perhaps even in some ways it's even harder perhaps for Ironman because they maybe can't say what they actually want to say. Half the time. Whereas somebody like Mark can at least probably be honest and will also you know if you. He'll probably just do what he will do and people tend to, tend to look more favourably on that. I think you know we've had that experience with somebody like Ian Hamilton at the Outlaw. He came out and they, they put in one policy where I think they said people can race next year but they have to pay an extra 20 pound. That got a fierce backlash. So he said well look we're sorry we made a mistake. They withdrew it and they and everyone thank you for listening and off you go and you know, pat on the back type thing. Don't think Ironman kind of get that kind of favor you know but I think it's perhaps less to do with the individuals and more the way the organization is set up. It's debt laden in the extreme and it's trying to sell itself at the moment. You know there's a whole host of reasons why when somebody pays their entrance fee it's not going to give it them back by way of refund but to be honest having followed Ironman for a number of years that's kind of how it's always operated anyway and it.

Has a very loyal following doesn't it? And you know most of them sell out time and again and you know.

Well yes and no. I mean a lot of them do and it has some very popular races and it's quite quick to cull the ones that aren't so popular. Triathlon is a sport in the US for example particularly which in US really is about long distance and is about Ironman. It's been flatlining for at least the last six years. We looking at some stats for that the other day. So there are a number of races where you know know it does, it will struggle So I suppose One example the 70.3 World Championships was meant to be down in Taupo the end of this year when the world championships couldn't take place because of COVID and because of travel they quickly stopped the race and you could potentially could have put that on still as a domestic race but it wasn't going to be commercially viable for them so they quickly pulled the plug on that one. So I suppose they make decisions depending on the financial side and then in terms of loyal following yes I think it has although I think people also get, people can get disaffected by it but I think I wonder how many, you know how many people there are. Ironman that where it's a very much A one and done as well. So people come in, do their one race as a bucket list idea and then they say what's next? And I think a lot of people come into the sport quickly and fall out of the sport quickly or move on to other extreme sports, if we want to term it that way. And so triathlon has a challenge around the stickability and people staying in it.

And I think, I suppose that kind of leads me back to your own triathlon experience. Which, which of the race, which of your races was your highlight and because you know, you've obviously done a few different ones, but you know which event and you can include in that which is your highlight that you've seen, you know, other people compete in and which one is your favorite that you've competed in?

Yeah, and that's an interesting question. It's, you know, what, what becomes a highlight for you and yourself in terms of, in terms of, you know, the marathons and triathlons and things that I've done. You know, I certainly remember doing probably the first time I did Wimble Ball, which would have been 20. I mean, I guess they all, they all have kind of highlights, you know, doing the first Blenheim, the first London Triathlon. Crossing the finish line there was, was great in the London Triath. There was a bunch of us from work, a bunch of journalists, we all having a race amongst ourselves. We had a challenge with Vernon Kay for some reason as well. And so it became, that became like a little bit of a ding dong thing and we were all kind of running in branded kit and stuff. So it was a bit of fun and you know, kind of crossing the line in that one was good. I suppose going down to thinking about, you know, doing Challenge Henley, which was the first time I did a long distance race. There was a point during that, midway through the marathon where I suppose managed the situation really well because I felt like I was very close to bonking or stroke, passing out. But I managed to pull it together and sort of get some nutrition on board and come through for that. I mean that was a fun race. Again I'd entered, but we'd also entered a relay team who was a bunch of sort of three friends. And I'd start a little earlier. Then I biked a little bit quicker than the relay biker. So it ended up with me four laps on the run. It ended up with me being a lap ahead of them. But the marathon runner for the relay team was a great friend of mine, a lad called Rob Watts, who in his day was a you know, a 2:33 marathoner. So I remember him unlapping me at one point and as he was sort of 50 yards behind, it was a great bellow went up and you know, that he'd seen me. So as he went past, I thought I'd try and stick with him for as long as I could, but that meant dropping from running, you know, eight minute miling, probably down to whatever he was doing, six twenties or something at that point. So I think, you know, you make mistakes like that and then it comes back to bite you. But I was pleased with the way that I managed to kind of hold it together because I was really coming from, for my triathlon at that time. I was really just coming from a bit of an endurance running background, really. So, you know, I was always a terrible swimmer, not particularly strong on the bike and then just kind of survive on my run fitness. It certainly wouldn't be the way I'd advise anybody else to do it. There's been others though, you know, in Iceland, I remember running a marathon there, which was when I dipped under sort of three hours for the first time, I think at a marathon there. And in the second half of it there was a bit where everyone had started a 10k half marathon and marathon has all started together. And then we got to halfway and all of a sudden everyone peeled off and I was on my own doing the marathon. So few marathon runners and I hadn't really. We'd flown in late and it had been a bit rushed. I hadn't really given much thought, hadn't looked at my watch at all. And I remember there was a probably about a 5 or 10k, you know, portion of that second half of that marathon where it just felt like I could run on air and run as fast, as fast as I'd ever want to, you know, and clearly I wasn't running that fast, but it just felt like it was like I was on top of the world, literally and metaphorically. And those feelings are the ones that you do the sport for, you know, and I vividly remember that. And I came back with a huge negative split to do, you know, sort of a 2:59 and a few seconds and up into three, three hours and think that that kind of thing is a great, is a great feeling. But then in terms of what gives me, you know, athletic performances that I look at and it fill me with pride, I would actually say it's probably not really my own that much, if I'm honest. It's, you know, I've got a Friend now who has, who was diagnosed with breast cancer at the start of COVID And she, she was never really a runner, but she's now gone out and run, you know, or got some fresh air and walked and moved around every morning for the last hundred plus days. And I think there's a massive value in that and, you know, that makes me very proud of her and I hope she's very proud of herself.

Fantastic. And it is such a wonderful, you know, all elements of the sport, whether it's running, cycling, swimming or combination, is just so, so good for the soul, isn't it? I was chatting to a lady this morning and you know, in her late 60s, she just taken up running for the first time and in fact my wife was listening to a podcast, I need to listen to this podcast with Ian Graham, who's, who's, who was on her spirit podcast with Louise Minchin and you know, this lady in her 70s, still doing iron Man's and you're like, it's just amazing, isn't it? So you must see some incredible things evolve from a professional point of view over those years. Is there one moment that stands out for you from watching, whether it's the Brownlees or something like that, one moment that kind of stands out for you from your professional career?

I'm not sure in that sense, just picking one moment. I don't know. I mean, I remember being at the 2013 Grand Final in London, which was the year after the Olympics, and that was the race where going into it, there was a sort of, from memory, if I've got this right, there was a chance for both Alistair and Jonathan Brownlee to win the world title and also Javier Gomez. And there'd been some rumours that Alistair had got an injury as well. Another injury, get so many. And when he came off the bike, you could clearly see as he came down in T2, as his foot hit the ground, that he was in, he was in difficulty and he ran round and stopped and walked and ran and jogged. And anyway, he still did like a 35 minute 10k. But then it came down, if anyone's seen that race, remembers that race, it came down to a sprint between Johnny and Javier Gomez and Alistair at that point was sort of going the other way and he stopped to tell, to give Johnny tactics as to what to do in the sprint, which I think, you know, by his own admission, then they said, and they kind of don't mince their words with one another, he didn't really take those tactics, he went out first, you know, Javier Gomez sat on his shoulder and in the final sprint in Hyde park there, Gomez took the win and he took the world title. So to be there at the finish line for that one from a triathlon perspective was, you know, was really great. I also remember seeing there. Jan Frodeno was there at the time as well, and I remember him celebrating with Javier Gomez and I never seen him so happy before or since. So even when he. Even when Frodeno wins the Ironman World Championship, I've never seen him so happy as when Gomez break the brownlies that day. So when people say, is there a bit of an edge between the Gomez, between Frodeno and the Brownies? I think there might be just a little.

There might be a little bit. Yeah, you're right. He didn't look. He wasn't massively ecstatic when he won Kona, which was an incredible.

Well, he's won it a few times now, so we should probably, you know, give him some credit for that.

Yeah, no, absolutely. So in 220 triathlon, you obviously write about lots of different things. Training, nutrition products. I thought it'd be worth just sort of picking your brace. You must see so many things. I mean, you know, I've only been now doing triathlons for four years and it is the sort of sport where there is just so much kit, isn't there? I mean, there is just so much stuff that you can, could buy if you wanted to, if you want to make it an expensive sport. There can be, it definitely can be. You know, if we were to pick each individual sport, are there any standout things that you thought were a brilliant and you know, have you regularly find yourself talking about to other people? And again, for each sport, are there any ones that came out and you thought actually what a complete waste of time or you thought it was a great idea and it really wasn't. So for each sport, is there anything that kind of stands out in terms of products?

Okay, let's see what we can do here. So from a swim perspective, to get a wetsuit that fits you, a swim wetsuit that fits you is probably the number one thing, especially if you're not a. If you don't really come from a swimming background, but gives you both confidence and probably a lot more speed and fluidity through the water, I would suggest so. It doesn't have to be a 600 pound wetsuit, you know, it could cost you 100 pound, it could be a secondhand wetsuit, but if something fits you that works and the same by the same token, getting the right pair of goggles that are not going to leak and if it's. If it's going to be a sunny day, get some ones that are tinted as well, then I think those things. So it's less about spending a fortune on that kit for that element, it's more about getting stuff that actually works for you. With.

With those goggles mentioned in mind, Pat, what are you. What are your thoughts on these digital goggles that will give you all of the feedback.

Yeah. So I spoke to. Some of your listeners might know Lionel Sanders, who's a Canadian triathlete, a great character of the sport, really. So I spoke to Lionel Sanders for an interview a couple of weeks ago and he. I did. I kind of asked him that same question, you know, what bit of tech is going to revolutionize? And I was thinking he would talk about the run shoes, you know, but he didn't. He mentioned these, the form goggles. And for anyone who doesn't know what they are, they effectively give you. It's almost like having a Garmin watch, but in your goggles so you can see the display will tell you what you're doing. Your pace per hundred meters might be a good one, averaged over so many seconds or the distance you've covered and things. So I think perhaps there's a little way to go until they've been perfected. It's probably around the GPS on it think at the moment they link back to the watch and that relies on gps. Anyone who swam in open water knows that open water GPS isn't always super accurate. But once that. Once, that is now, that could be incredibly good. So for him, who's someone who's quite data driven, I could see that's a real big boon also, you know, even for many people who like to see what's going on, and we can always see what's going on on the run, we can always see what's going on in the bike. With bike computers and watches and things. If you're out and you're swimming and it's just like I'm actually getting bored swimming up and down, up and down, which a lot of people do have that. Do have that feeling, or they struggle more with that, then potentially these form goggles could be a big change. I think there might be a challenge around. I don't know if they've looked at this, but the price point is high. You're talking way over a hundred pounds. So given how long we know how long a pair of goggles last, most of us from the swim side, it's like, are you going to want to be forking out £100 for a pair of goggles every time? And then if the other argument perhaps would be when you talk to, let's say, you know, hardcore swimmers, if you like, probably not the best expression, but old school swimmers, it would be like you don't even need a watch, you just go, you go by the pool clock. You have as, you know, very little in terms of the way of gadgets and you just get out there and you, you know, and you swim and you do the hard yards and potentially tech in by, in the way of those goals might be a little bit kind of anathema to that.

Well, I think there's, that's always, you know, you get very differing opinions, don't you? Some people are very data driven and they, you know, they use that to the nth degree and they can use that to improve their performance. And then you get other people like Chrissie Wellington was always famous for just wanting to train on feel. And you know, just the Garmin was strapped to the bikes or the back of the saddle, so she couldn't even see the data when she was cycling, from what I understand. So yeah, it kind of, it depends on people's preference, doesn't it?

It does, yeah. There's also no right or wrong and I think that's important to factor in as well because triathlon is a great sport for looking across at somebody else's bike and going, you know, oh no, look what they're doing. I should change what I'm doing to keep up. And that's your insecurities coming out.

And the cycling is definitely the bit where you're going to look sideways and think, hang on, that bike's more impressive than mine or whatever it is. So what about on cycling if somebody wants to improve their cycling, what are the things that you've seen.

Over the.

Years that really have proved to be worth the investment?

The thing that most people probably would look at, and I think I can't see why I don't, I probably would agree with this is around a bike fit and being able, just that you fit your bike. It kind of goes back to what I was saying about the swimming and having a wetsuit that fits. But more than anything else, you need to be able, you need to fit your bike to be able to ride your bike properly. So I think that's the main thing. And that may not be just been as aero as well. It won't be just been as aero as possible or as aerodynamic as possible. You want to. You want, if you're doing, you know, I suppose whatever distance triathlon, you want to be comfortable and enjoy and enjoying what you're doing. So that's probably the number one thing.

Well, one of the people we interviewed on this podcast is Matt Bottrill, and he was saying exactly the same thing. It's not just about getting yourself in the most aerodynamic position. It's also about finding a position that you can stay in for long periods. Because if you can't stay in it for very long, then doesn't matter how well your bike is set up, you're not going to benefit from those aerodynamics.

Yeah, that's true. And then perhaps, you know, I know Matt is like a super experienced coach and coaches a huge number of professional athletes, and what he'll also be factoring in is not just being able to hold that position, but also, can you then run off the bike and run a marathon off the bike? Because that would be a potential where a coach could put their ego first and say, well, I'm the bike coach. I want to coach you to the fastest bike split possible. I really don't mind if you walk the marathon after that.

Okay, brilliant. And then what about running?

So, yeah, what about. Yeah, so running. Well, I mean, running's obviously gone through some huge change in very recently in terms of the shoes, which I am pretty much sold on now, make a huge difference to times. To be honest, as much as I. Part of me hates to say that. And it, you know, for all the three sports, running is the one that my heart is much closest, closer to than any of the others. And I do feel like the shoe technology, there's a. There's something very worrying in terms of how it takes, how. How it's starting to make the sport less accessible for people to be competitive. So, yeah, I mean, if you want to make gains, it looks like if you invest in a pair of Nike Vapor Flies or competitor brands are coming up with like, rival. We're not supposed to call them carbon plated, but call them, you know, because it's the mixture of the carbon plate and the pebax foam. So apparently, you know, from a technical side. So, you know, but getting those pair of shoes, if you're looking for quicker times. And I think that's where we have seen a lot of the Ironman marathon times last year in the professional ranks come down. And I think that actually from an amateur perspective, there's probably even more to be sliced off that I know people argue that the other way, but I kind of disagree.

It is really interesting, isn't it? Because it's not so long ago that we seem to be spending more time reading about things like the barefoot running technique, trying to strip it back and the shoes were actually the problem, not the cure, and now it seems to have gone the other way. So what are your thoughts on that kind of comparison between those completely different mindsets?

Yeah, I mean, I'm not sure they are entirely differing in terms of mindsets. I think the idea from The Christopher. Christopher McDougall's Born to Run kind of book, which obviously kicked off the, you know, kicked off the kind of barefoot running which did wonders for physios everywhere, for Achilles surgery the world over. You know, there's some that fundamentally a lot of that stuff makes sense. It's just we're not necessarily conditioned. You know, we, as we know we chatted earlier before the, before the recording, we were saying the worst thing you can do, spend so much of your life sat down. Well, if you're doing that a lot and then you go out and then you try and run barefoot and you know, then the stress that you're putting through the different muscle groups, perhaps you're not going to be up to that. And perhaps we are used to walking around in shoes every day. So actually running in a. Something that's similar to a shoe is probably makes sense as well. I just think with the modern evolution of the running shoe, which tends to act like a lever, it appears at least to give a big advantage and it appears to drop it, drop race times by huge chunks. And there's just no denying that. And that's the first time that has really happened, you know, and it's only, it's only been a recent iteration of shoe development. So I don't think they're really at odds with one another. You can still go out and run barefoot if you want to run barefoot. But yeah, I mean, if you're asking me if we put someone from the Tara Humara up against Eliud Kipchoge and ask them to run the quickest marathon, Well, I think Kipchoge wins. And then, you know, how much, how long do they have to go before the barefoot runner beats him? I don't know. Don't know the answer.

Well, I think I thought it was interesting because I think at Arahan, Finn kind of summed it up best in that actually I think you're absolutely right. They're not in conflict so much as the barefoot running technique is more your running technique. And actually the shoes can kind of continue to improve that as well as.

Yeah, I mean if we, yeah, if we're going to go sort of technical on that, I think that one of the big mistakes 10 seems to be around the idea that barefoot running equates to forefoot running all the time. You know, so people desperately trying to do everything they can to get on their forefoot and stride length getting shorter and shorter and they're not really getting it, not really moving forward anywhere. Whereas it's, you know, it seems to be that what you're looking for is to have your, you know, your body. Body mass landing over your. Over your. Over your landing foot basically. So, you know, so you're not, you're not striding out in front which would typically be a heel strike, but then you can. But when you analyze elite runners, many of them still, you know, heel strike. It's just that their body weight is actually the center of mass is actually over the landing foot. So Patrick Langer, for example, in winning Ironman, you know, when you look at him, look at some of the stills of him, he's still heel striking at times but, but so I think that's where it's been perhaps misunderstood and people are desperate to get on their forefoot.

That's really interesting.

Yeah, it's not heel striking is bad, forefoot is good. It's not as simple as that.

More about the weight.

Yeah, it's more about where you land over your center of gravity. That's really the kind of the key thing with it and the shifting forces of that.

Okay, fantastic. I know you're in the process of qualifying to be a sports in sports massage, aren't you?

So very long process now. Yeah.

That kind of leads me on to injuries. And how do you. How do you think people best avoid injury in kind of pursuing. You know what I mean? You know, by your own admission, when you want to do ironman distance, it's a lot, lot of training and there is a lot of potential for injury.

Yeah, well, people don't, do they? I mean you look at the stats, people just get injured and that's what happens. So.

But do you see good advice out there that you think, yeah.

Some of the standard kind of regimen around this stuff, you know, don't, don't up your. Don't up your levels by 10% more week on week, for example. It's just quite old Hackney I'd kind of talk. But it really does work I think, you know, so, you know, let Your give your body a chance to chance, chance to absorb the training and then come back stronger. So those rule of thumbs are very good. And whether that's, you know, that's a mixture of intensity and sort of length of length of time, intensity and duration. And I know we have, you know, metrics like, like training stress scores and things if we, if we turn, if we get really geeky and going to platforms like trainingpeaks on these sorts of things. But I think just a general principle, you could, you could look at that and say that works. Consistency is going to be your friend when it comes to, to not getting injured. So building your body up to do the work that you want it to do is key. And then also I think something that people miss a huge amount is when you're, is when you're up in your training load or you want to do, let's say a long distance event. People want to put more training hours in, but it's not commensurate with the number of hours of recovery they do. So if people have a busy working life and they're training for 15 hours a week and they decide they want to up it to 18 hours, they don't necessarily, I mean, some do, but they don't necessarily look for three more hours of recovery to go alongside that as a kind of one for one basis.

Interesting point. Actually, I think that sounds like excellent advice and something. I'm not sure I never thought of it in that way.

So yeah, it's that whole thing, you know, ask Chrissie Wellington how many hours a week she trained for and she'd say she trained 24 hours a day, seven days a week because everything she did was geared towards the training. And so. And that's where professional athletes tend to have an advantage over, you know, the kind of high performing, let's say age groups at times in triathlon because they just have time to recover. Whether they choose to take that time to recover properly is another thing. But they do have it.

Yeah.

So that's kind of. Yeah.

What's the worst advice you hear thrown around with regards to any of these subjects? You know, what's the worst advice you hear?

Well, there's, Unless something is dangerous, such as, you know, go and swim on your own and do 10k out in the sea when you know there's kind of rip currents and all sorts, then I don't think there is really such a thing as bad advice. It's just where. It's just how you choose to look at it and then accept it or not accept it, or it's typically somebody's point of view. I mean, this whole podcast I've given you my point of view. People might say that's absolute hogwash, or they might agree with some of it and that's fine. So I think it's taking it all on board and then kind of deciding what is actually going to work for you. And there really isn't such thing as bad advice. People coming into the sport and they were super keen and go, I want to do an Ironman in a month's time. Now, you might say, well, that's probably, you know, your fitness isn't up to that. But, you know, and I'm not really sure about this, however, you know, if they can get round in like 17 hours or whatever, and they're super motivated and that might be their massive goal and they might be raising thousands of pounds for charity, it's not, I would say, you know, it would be bad, maybe it would be bad advice to say, don't do it. You know, actually, if they want to do that, go ahead and do it. And I think we should be really careful about advising people. We give it out very liberally. But actually it really is each to their own, I think, in many ways.

Fantastic. What about coming back to the sport? You said that a lot of people do their one off Ironman and then they go off and try and find something different, like an ultra marathon or whatever it is. Do you think there's a way that the sport can kind of keep people more engaged so they keep coming back for more?

Yeah, the people that I've seen, as it's all anecdotal, but the people I've seen that have been in the sport longer are the ones who have actually started by doing sprint triathlons, then gone up to standard distance and slowly built themselves up to longer distance and not gone in with the mantra that longer is always better. So I suppose it's the sort of intrinsic versus extrinsic kind of motivation and the reasons that they're there. But they have such a love for swimming, biking and running and putting those three together. And perhaps also, perhaps the realization that doing short distance at an intensity is just as much a challenge than going long, you know, and hobbling your way through an iron man for 17 hours or whatever. I see those people, they tend to stick around in the sport for an awful lot, an awful lot longer. That's not to say that it's a right or wrong with any of these things. You know, if somebody wants only wants to be in it, wants to do one ironman and wants to get the hell out, then that's okay. That's okay, too. And you know, how much triathlon should adapt to try to keep more people in the sport? I'm not sure either. You know, it is what it is. Fundamentally, it's a solo pursuit. It's swim, it's bike, and it's run. We see some nice innovations from the likes of Super League Triathlon, and there's nice little twists and things that you can do around that. But, you know, let's not pretend. Let's not pretend it's, you know, something it's not and try and evolve it too much, necessarily. It's like, people want to do this, then great. If they don't, then that's fine, too. There's also a lot. There's also written a piece recently on kind of diversity, and it's like, how do you get people into the sport? Or maybe it's just enough that if we can encourage more people to swim, more people to bike, and more people to run, then that's okay as well.

I think that's it. I think if people naturally do more swimming, more biking, or more running, then it becomes an interesting thing to pursue, to kind of add another piece into the jigsaw.

You would think so. You would think so, wouldn't you? And it's perhaps the drive to commercialize it so much, which then creates its own need for people to be in the sport for longer and more people to be in the sport. Maybe that's. Maybe if you take some of the commercial aspects out of it, you don't necessarily need that.

Yeah, I mean, I think it's a shame when, you know. So last year, when I did my first Ironman, I got to the end, it was like, right, I need another one, got to do another one. Whereas a friend done Iron Man Zurich, I think just a month or so before, got to the end of it, went, no, that's me done. I'm out of it. And I think in a way, I was just really disappointed for him because I thought, I've enjoyed this so much that you clearly didn't get the same out of it. But it was interesting chatting to Laura Siddal because she came to the sport quite late, really. I mean, she'd obviously got a great sporting background, but she said that she wished she'd found triathlon a lot sooner. And clearly there's a lot more awareness towards the sport today. But I was still thinking that back to my own children who are 11 and 13 and one of them is showing an interest in triathlon, really enjoy cycling. But there's not really many opportunities for children to get into it. I mean, do you see much opportunity for getting, you know, what do you think about getting people into the sport younger than, you know, previously?

It's difficult in that sense because it is still, it's very much still a minority sport. There are, I guess it's a bit of a postcode lottery. There are some great little tri clubs sprouted up and they have thriving youth sections, which is fantastic. But you just have to be in the right place. Or perhaps, perhaps it goes back to that diversity aspect again, which is you have to be in the kind of the right environment or with the right crowd or the right upbringing to even be given the opportunity to even know what it is. So that's a tough nut to crack. So schools is a great way.

And then schools starting to embrace triathlon as a sport.

Not really, but I think it's. The clubs would need to go to the schools, so you need to. So it needs to. Probably a lot of it could start with the clubs, but then the clubs are run by volunteers and that's a great onus on them as well. But then if they can then link, they could link in with schools and that starts to bring. That brings a pathway through. You know, the governing body can do. Can put some framework in place as well and I'm sure that can. They can always do more, although they can't do everything. Yeah. And I mean that, you know, there are other things as well in terms of being able to provide kit and equipment out there and in the way we are in a kind of a post. Well, in a Covid world where exercise is hopefully being pushed more to the top of the agenda for all round health, you know, the idea of free bicycles for every child would be a. Would be a great thing. And more swimming lessons and pushing swimming to the fore and getting kids out in the fresh air more and more, getting them moving and running around and all of those things. If policies were directed in that direction, I think that would be great. And then you could. You would certainly be some scope for triathlon to have its little bit of the little bit of the cake of that.

Yeah, because I just think it would be. It's such a fantastic thing. Even if they never end up doing a triathlon ever. If it's given them a love for running or a love for cycling or love for swimming or hopefully a love of all of them, then that to me is a great asset to have going through your 20s and your 30s as opposed to needing to wait till your 40s when you start having midlife crisis to go quick, I've got to go get myself back into shape.

No, I completely agree. And it can be sliced and diced in so many ways at that age. As you know, from a scootathlon to a duathlon to whatever combination of different events or different kind of disciplines that you want to do.

I think there's. I think there is what A junior one at Blenheim isn't there. You mentioned. I seem to remember hearing that I've got. It's on my list of things to look up for next year to try and see if Bomin fancies doing it. But I think there is a junior one at Blenheim.

There probably is. I mean, certainly down in the likes of Hever Castle. I think Hever builds itself. Perhaps I might have this wrong. I think it builds itself as the biggest children's triathlon in the year.

Okay. Okay, that's good to know. I'll have to look that one up. That too. Thank you. And what about. Clearly a post Covid world is going to be a challenging place for triathlons. I mean, more so than a lot of sports because of the transition area. How do you think that post Covid triathlon world will look different to pre Covid world?

To a point, I'm not sure it will look that different. If I'm honest. I think triathlon, particularly over the last few months and sort of having looked, investigated this a little bit, triathlon had a challenge differentiating itself from other mass participation sports like the marathon, for example. So if you think of, you know, 20,000 people lined up altogether cooped up at the start of a marathon in close proximity. Well, triathlon is already in many respects something of a time trial. Most of it is non drafting. It can easily be tweaked to be all non drafting. It's set off in waves of X number of people. But Ironman have already incorporated rolling starts to a lot of their races for the swim. At which point it becomes this sort of perpetual kind of momentum human movement. Right. Go to see the London triathlon every year and that's all you see people going round and round and round, socially distanced. Right. They just naturally are anyway. So I don't actually. And it also, I think probably need to be a little bit sort of caveat this slightly. But the evidence seems to suggest that people in an outdoor space, the chances of, you know, contracting the virus outdoors are far, far less than they are indoors. Well, these events will take place outdoors. You know, if it's a swimming pool, you've got the chlorine factor and you can. So I think in many ways it's in a good position. For example, Hever, which we just mentioned, which is the Castle Triathlon series, they've got 3,000 people coming to an event at the end of September. So that's almost, you know, that's Brian, who is the organizer down there, was always quite bullish about the chances of putting stuff on. But you wouldn't say that's massively different. The World Championships completely. At the other end of the scale, the ITU World Championships has been announced for Hamburg. One race this year in the World Series. They've deemed it the World Championship. Some athletes can't get there. It's causing a bit of a focus at the moment. However, there's 65 men and 65 women on the start line for that that's taking place. There's nothing different apart from there won't be any crowds there. So, you know, I think triathlon can many ways as we currently stand, it can crack on.

Fantastic. Well, that's, that's really good to hear. I think that's what we all want to hear.

And one thing, sorry, just on that, I suppose the one thing that we should caveat is is obviously travel two races, which is what Ironman has the challenge as a global. As a global brand. So you know that so many races being cancelled because. Because of flights and then because of exposure accommodation in the side of it but, but more locally, you know, if you can drive to a race then.

Yeah, I mean that's so my, my Ironman this year was going to be Tallinn, so Estonia. And I can, you know, it's now happening. It's been pushed back to September but I can see it happening as a local event. I just can't see that many people being able to fly into it.

And is it still on now?

I believe so, yeah. I haven't heard that. It's not.

It's one of the last. Talin's been quoted numerous times as the kind of one, almost the most robust Ironman left because it's the only one of the few that's still on and so that's. So you're training hard for that at the moment?

Oh no, I've pushed it back to next year because I just couldn't see being able to do the one in September because of flights and things like that. So no I'm training for nothing at the moment.

Okay.

Trading for the fun of it.

Yeah. So then Ironman has. I'm sure there'll be many other people like you. So then Ironman has the call whether they're prepared to let a race go ahead with limited numbers.

Well, exactly. And that's why I haven't, that's why I haven't heard anything lately about whether it's going ahead because you know, my understanding is at the moment that would be a quarantine country. So that's going to restrict many people going, isn't it? So, yeah, very challenging. And with the Olympics, you know, they've got to the point where they had, they picked all of the Olympic team for the triathlon team.

From a British perspective.

Yeah, from a British perspective it's really.

Back up in the air now. They had made their nominations. So from the women's side they hadn't announced this. They were going to announce it back in. Where are we now? The Olympics would have happened in the sort of August, very early August. They would have announced it after the last race in Yokohama in the World Series and it was going to be Georgia Taylor Brown, Jessica Learmonth and Vicky Holland. Those were going to be the three that go. But whilst that may, that may stand but there's, you know, we have, we've got a big time gap between those guys last racing and racing again and then what quite what's going to happen. So from a British perspective I would imagine it's, I would say it's all to play for but there will certainly be some questions to be asked about qualification there. From the men's side, it's even more complicated. I don't know. Wow. I could hazard a guess who would get the nods for that. But you've basically got, you have the Brownlee brothers, Alex Yee, Tom Bishop sort of all in the mix. But currently the British men have only secured two spots, not three for the individual event. So they have to accrue enough points to claim that final third spot. And at the moment, you know, there's no racing happening of which to accrue points. And there's also the other side of it is if people are competing against one another to get those berths, it's like when is it fair for them to be competing on a level playing field as well? You know, people have, some people haven't been able to swim for the best part of a year. All of those things come in to be factored into it. So at the moment it's Quite up in the air.

It's really challenging, isn't it?

Yeah.

So what are there any books that you've kind of read or you kind of regularly recommend that you or that have really helped you? Books or even podcasts but. But primarily books that you kind of find yourself coming back to. I know you mentioned Born to Run earlier, but any others that you found to be really powerful?

Yeah, I enjoyed Born to Run. I've actually got a copy here which was signed by. You've read it, haven't you?

Yes.

So Caballo Blanco, who is. I think he was the white horse. Is that.

That was right?

Yeah, he did. Yeah. He doesn't. Mika. True. Is it whose name. He came over to London a few years ago and I had a good chat with him. He was sort of completely, completely a fish out of water. But I had a great chat with him. I asked him what he ran in and he's like just anything. Yeah, doesn't have to be Bedford, I'll run in anything. But sadly he did, he passed away. So I do have a signed copy from that book. I know, yeah. Which is a lovely.

It is an incredible book because I described running as sport with all the fun bits taken out and I just never enjoyed running. And then I listened to that while running knowing that I wanted to get, you know, wants to do triathlon. So I thought I've got to find a way of getting into running. And I was listening to that while running.

Yeah.

And it just completely changed my mindset and the few times I've been injured, I miss it so much. I think I might even miss it more than the, the cycling which I find myself crazy even thinking, let alone saying. But it really changed my mindset. I think it's a fantastic book.

Yeah. No, that is quite a seminal book that one, isn't it? In terms of triathlon. I remember reading Matt Fitzgerald's Iron War a few years ago, which I know that's for anyone who doesn't know that book. Iron War was the famous 1989 Ironman race between Mark Allen and Dave. Turned out sort of a head to head between Mark Allen and Dave Scott kind of pretty much all day and won't spoil the ending for you don't know who wins. But Max Fitzgerald went and kind of wrote a tribute book to that where he kind of. He dug into both of their lives. Both of them actually hated it and went on record of that. They were very anti it so I think they fell out with him over that. However, it doesn't reduce from the fact that I think it's a fantastic read, you know, and I think he does a very good job on that and it is highly entertaining. I don't think Dave and Mark would necessarily thank me for saying that, but I still think it's a great. That is a great book.

Brilliant. Well, I know of the story, but I didn't know about the book, so that's just gonna go straight on my readings.

Thank you. Yeah, it is. It's. It's good. It takes you back through their upbringings and kind of what drove them as well. Another book that had a big impact on me that I read reasonably recently was why We Sleep by Matthew Walker.

Fantastic.

Yeah. And it really give me. I think there's some real fundamental lessons about the importance of sleep there. The idea that it's this passive thing that we just have to get through and then before we start our working day could not be further from the truth. And actually our synapses are firing all over the place and our brain basically in overdrive while we're asleep, trying to restore and recover our bodies. So from an athletic perspective, I think it's a fantastic lesson that it's your biggest friend in terms of recovery and healing. And also I think I read it at the time, my youngest daughter was doing a gcse, so I remember her saying, I'm tired, I've been revised. And I was like, oh, yeah, just go to bed. It's essentially as good as doing any more revision. So I into it.

I think it was Matt Walker that said that, you know, if sleep wasn't really important, it's nature's biggest mistake, because literally every species on the planet has one form of sleep or another. It's just. Yeah, that's a brilliant book. And actually combined with that, I was recommending to Kerry Sutton, I think it's Nick Little Hales book, Sleep the Eight Hour Myth, which is also about how you can try and kind of manage when you can't, when you do have less sleep, how you can manage it. I read both within a few months of each other. Both are brilliant.

Yes. And he's effective. What's he effectively saying that you can't manage it? Is that the whole point? Because Matthew Walker's point is that there isn't really no hacking it. You know, you can't hack your circadian rhythm. You need to get the hours in and you need. And your sleep hygiene is important to allow you to do that.

No, he believes that you can hack it, but you need to know what to do. So it's not about taking less sleep, it's about saying you need x Number of 90 minute cycles over the course of a week and if you know that you're going to get less on Friday night, you need to work out how you get those other 90 minute cycles in over the course of that week so that you're not deficient. So he advises a lot of teams like Real Madrid and Manchester United and he was saying that on Champions League nights what he'll do is he knows that the team are going to get less sleep, so he'll be front loading and post loading them with sleep on the other night to counteract the fact that they'll have less sleep on a particular night. So it's all about the number of 90 minute cycles. Both, the combination of both books was, I thought, really interesting.

Yeah, that's not interesting.

They don't contradict each other, but both just explore something that really, particularly with endurance sport, it has got to be something we know as much about as possible.

Yes. And particularly because of the type of individual that's attracted often to a sport who think that by going, you know, longer, harder, getting up earlier, that's always a, that's always the best thing to do. You know, challenging. Some of those beliefs are probably a good thing. Although I suppose the only thing I would say around that is in terms of doing endurance sport and triathlon, one of the greatest things is motivation. And when you're motivated to want to do your sport and want to get out the door and train, you take it completely for granted. But when that motivation slips, it can change everything. And particularly around training and even perceived effort, being able to push harder in those. When you are doing a tough session and being able to take it to, you know, quote unquote, sort of the next level, if you're motivated and you have enjoyment in what you're doing, your perceived effort will be, in my experience at least, will be considerably lower and that will allow you to make those gains.

Yeah, it's all about knowing your why, isn't it?

Why you're doing it.

And if you, if you understand that, then it's more compelling to get on and do it.

Yes, yes, it is, absolutely. And also believing in your why as well, I think is the key rather that, you know, you can, you know, I could say to you, I want to run it, go out and, you know, do a nine hour Ironman tomorrow. But the reality is when I actually, when I get out there and it starts getting hard, that would be the truth. Will be there and then, you know.

That will show up. Fantastic. So, last question for you. What are you excited about over the course of the next year?

You know, what are you.

What are you looking forward to other than some sort of triathlons to watch? But, you know, is it. And you can answer that in terms of. If you want to. If you've got a race that you particularly want to do, but also from a professional point of view, too.

I mean, it would. It would be great to. It would be great to see the Olympics happening on one score. That would be a. That would be a nice thing, you know, out in Japan. It would be amazing to go over there, you know, and experience that and almost have a reset and take the world back to normal and triathlon to be a part of that as well. They obviously have the mixed relay now as part of it, so I think that's. That. That would be great if that happened in 2021, as it were. You know, from my side of it, I don't particularly have any performance goals myself at all. I have actually damaged my knee, so I might need to have a go and have a scan on that. That's stopped my running for the. Probably seriously for the first time ever, I think, in a way. So I do have to have a look at that. But. But no, you know, in terms of the people close to me, you know, my two daughters, one's trying to be a paramedic and the other one's just coming into doing array levels now. I just want them to be, you know, healthy and happy and go on to kind of achieve what they want to achieve, really. Those are. Those are. Those are big things for me. You know, my partner's just qualified as reflexologist and starting a business there. So, you know, I want that to take off for her and be successful as well. And, yeah, it's great when you see. Or I think it's great when you see those close to you who are actually, you know, thriving and achieving. Brings me a lot of pleasure.

Fantastic. Brilliant. Well, that is a lovely note to end on, Tim. It's been an absolute pleasure chatting to you. It's been, you know, you've got a fascinating job following what is an amazing sport. I've loved kind of delving into this sport over the last few years. And yeah, thank you very much for your. For your time. It's been. It's been a real pleasure now.

My pleasure.

I'm sure you'll agree. Genuinely lovely guy that has a huge passion for this incredible sport that so many of us love and so much great advice there. So I suggest if you want to go find out more about Tim or what he's up to then follow him on Twitter. There's a wealth of great information relating to triathlon that flows through his Twitter account and I just hope that you can take some of that advice, whether it be to do with kit, whether it be to do with recovery to improve what you do in your triathlon experience. This podcast was brought to you by Ember, the makers of delicious British Biltong, beef jerky and charcuterie. As I said, I particularly love the garlic and rosemary flavoured one and the chilli rub Biltong and if you use the discount code protein25 and that's protein all in capitals protein25 then you'll get a nice discount off your first purchase at Ember. So enjoy the bell toll and don't forget to download the Tribathlon app for more amazing podcasts but also to help you train, compete and to build your tribe SA.