The Paralysed Ultra Runner with Wanda Summers

Foreign.

I'm charlie redding.

And I'm claire fudge and this is.

The tribe athlon podcast.

The diagnosis basically was it severed through my nerves, my lower back and I had a 30% chance of walking again if I had surgery. They said no chance if I don't have the surgery because all the little fragments of my vertebrae gone into my spinal canal.

That is Wanda Summers and this episode is the paralyzed ultrarunner. Hey, Claire, how you doing?

Yeah, good, thank you. How are you?

I am good, thank you. I'm good. I'm all the better for being down in Cornwall in the sunshine now.

Get to have some sunshine.

It's. It's so much better, isn't it, when you can start cycling in shorts and short sleeves. Oh, it makes such a difference. It really does. You know, you just feel like you've just come out of the other side of an eternal winter.

Yeah. But anyway, vitamin D from the sunshine. Just about.

Absolutely. As opposed to those stupid squirty things that we have to put in our mouth. So what, what has been happening? I think, I think there's some amazing news in your Ironman racing. So tell us all about it.

Yeah, so, well, like I kind of, I kind of was first on the list for a roll down slot following South Africa. So yeah, officially, officially off to Kona which is super exciting.

Yeah, congratulations. And so this was your. Do I remember you saying this was your 18th full Iron Man?

I think so, yeah. I have a race before. I have a race full iron distance for four years. So I, Yes. I'm in a new age category which I'm now not at the bottom of. So you know, that kind of made a difference. Yeah. And it's interesting because with Kona obviously they've got, they've got the, the first Kona or World Championships they're doing in a couple of weeks time, haven't they? And then, then Kona this year is split into. The females are on racing on Thursday and the males are racing on Saturday. So that will be really different and quite exciting because it means that knowing quite a few people that racing means that you can, people can actually watch.

Yeah.

Support you and then you can support them, which is really nice.

So that's going to be awesome. The downside is going to be everyone talks about the accommodation being really difficult to find anyway and now there's going to be twice as many people there.

But actually I think one of the benefits is knowing a lot of people that going out that might be easier in terms of then actually being able.

To just share with people.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Find a, find an apartment or something. Awesome. And this is the first time you've qualified, isn't it? Out of all those. So.

Absolutely. It's, it's. Yeah, it's. Well, it's tough for anyone to qualify but our age group. Our age group. My age group usually. And even when I've kind of.

Oh, I see what you did there. You just distinguish yourself from my age group to your age group.

But it is different, Charlie. There is a difference there in our age groups. But no, we usually only have one slot. So unless you do a really amazing race on the day and very rarely, I think once when I raced in Whistler, I think I was on the list for a roll down slot. Nothing happened with that. So I think that's, you know, it's, it's very rare that somebody turns down a slot as well.

So all amazing. Very, very exciting. And how is that going to impact your, your year from a training point of view? Because I know you've had a jam packed year anyway.

Yeah, jam packed year. I think to be honest, I've got so much going on that I think it will, it's really useful that I'm racing frequently. Um, but I guess if, if there are any niggles or injuries, I'm just going to have to really kind of just step back from those races which will be quite difficult. Um, but yeah, and then obviously when, when I get back from Kona, we've got 100 miler in the dark, haven't we? In November we have.

Which is going to be a very different experience to Kona. But that kind of will be the perfect sort of like warm up training for it, won't it?

You know you'll be or just ultra tired one or the other. But that can be, that can be my excuse for all 24 hours or whatever we've got.

Exactly. You had the excuse of the knee last year. Oh no, sorry, the ankle.

Ankle.

Now you've got the excuse of Kona.

This year I've got it in early as well.

Exactly. So at least that means I might have a chance of keeping up again.

Well, yeah, yeah. Nice. It's really exciting and I think it'd be really interesting as well to see how these world championships pan out because obviously they've never had to do it like this before. So I think it's going to be actually probably really exciting and actually I'm really excited to watch in a couple of weeks time as well to see kind of what that race is like, because St. George, isn't it?

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. No, so that. Well, it's. Yeah. We're in for a great year, aren't we, with that and Kona all in one year. So, yeah, it's going to be amazing. And I hear you've just read Endure.

Well, I've just read a book. Charlie just read a book.

Well, that's even more exciting news. But Endure is a good book to read. If you're going to read a book. Endure is.

Yeah, it was. It was really good. I am. I just never really, as, you know, like, have time to read. So forced having to read something on a plane. It was really good. And actually, one thing I will say is reading something like that after you've done a race or even before doing a race, I think that probably you read different things or you think about different things afterwards. And I think one of the things that really came across for me is that you've always got something left that your body, whether it's psychological, physiological, there's always something left that your body always reserves. And actually my first thought, that's really amazing. My second thought was, that's really blooming frustrating.

Yeah, how get at it. Because I remember chatting to Charlie Spedding about this and. And him saying that, you know, he'd set his heart on a medal at the Olympics and. And he kind of implies in his book that, you know, silver just wasn't that important because the go always a medal.

And if that.

If that running a bit harder could have got him a goal, then potentially he might have done that. But his body just wasn't. His brain, wasn't that sufficiently willing to run faster? But I then said to him, but if there'd been a lion chasing you, could you have found more gas? And of course the answer is, yeah, almost. There's no doubt I would have found more gas if. If a lion had been chasing me.

Yeah.

So, yeah, I think it's really interesting.

I think that that bit kind of really, kind of when I was reading it again sort of post race, is that I knew that I sped up towards the end of the marathon, even though I was absolutely hating that marathon. And yet, you know, 10 minutes before, I was thinking, I cannot wait to finish. I really don't want to be running anymore. And then suddenly I was like, right, let's just get it done. And. And then managed to pick up again. So I think, you know, you. And I think we all know that, don't we? You can race down. You can. Or what feels like sprinting down a finish line and yet you didn't have that, you know that, that kind of power before.

So there's, there's a couple of stories that I remember reading. One, one was certainly in, in Ad Arahan Finn's Rise of the Ultra Runners, where you know, like at 60 miles into 100 mile race they almost can't walk, they are almost totally broken. And yet then they put in a PB on the last 10k. How is that possible? You know, that is total brain going, oh, okay, fine, there's only 10k left. You can have this extra piece of energy. I wasn't, I wasn't willing to. So one book that I read recently, which I expected to be a really all about the sort of psychology of running, but really wasn't actually it was much more about the physical side was chi running, which Meredith Kessler recommended to me when I interviewed her on the podcast. And I thought it was, I thought it was going to be all about mindful running. And it is a bit about that. And it's obviously born in the around Tai Chi, but what I really liked about it is that actually most of it was about technique and it was all about sort of the lean and the core strength which he draws from Tai Chi. But so some really, really good technique in terms of just the normal running. But, but what I hadn't read anywhere else was the, the running uphill and downhill piece. So, so running uphill. He had your, he has. I don't know if you've, maybe you've heard this before, but normally you'd have your hands about your sort of guts about with your, in line with your ribs and then going backwards, wouldn't you? Whereas when you're running uphill it should be your elbows that are in line with your hips and running up like that. So you're almost like you're punching somebody, like doing an uppercut.

Yeah.

And then when he, when he runs up a steep hill, he actually runs up with his feet 45 degrees to the hill and he'll do six steps up facing to the left, then six steps up facing, facing to the right.

See how that would be easier because actually something really steep when you do that, isn't it?

Yeah, but he's not running a zigzag. He's still running straight up the hill, but he's just, he's got his feet on the, on the start and, and kind of using that bottom arm, that lower arm to sort of drive up. And I've been playing around with it on the on the Cornish hills. And I think it's. I think it's really, really good. And I certainly found when I, when we did the arc, I'd only read part of Chi Running.

But was that your excuse? Because you don't even.

Yes, but you say that. But the bit that I employed most was, was the leaning forward and letting gravity pull me down the hills. And I think you'll find that I was striding ahead on the downhills we weren't talking about. I just hadn't read the uphill bit at that point.

I totally agree. And actually the downhill part is it's.

About.

Keeping your weight going forwards, isn't it? With, with the hill, gravity is doing all the work.

All you've got to do is state, basically stay upright, haven't you? And, and it's just allowing yourself to lean forward. And, and so that I thought was. Chi Running was a really good book, actually. Really, I really enjoyed that.

Is it based on Tai chi? Is that where it comes from?

Yeah, so he was. But I mean, he's a highly accomplished runner. He won Western States, which is, you know, one of the biggest, you know, big. No, not Western states. Badwater Ultra, I think, I think I might say. Well, you know, he's a top, top ultra runner, but he. I can't even remember what your question.

Was, but yeah, just about being that it's.

Yeah, no, it is. That's exactly it. So he studied Tai Chi really, before he got into running. And then he, he went back to his Tai chi teach. Tai chi teacher to say, and, and started taking his techniques and applying them to the running. And so I thought that was, that was a really good book. Now one thing that is exciting that I wanted to tell people about is the fact that we have a new sponsor for the podcast.

Yeah.

So 33 fuel are going to be sponsoring us. For those of you that have been listening to podcast for a While, Warren from 33 Fuel was one of my first people I interviewed on the podcast back something like two years ago. And, and obviously Warren was also on the podcast where we did the Ark50 ultramarathon, because he was. Him and Erica were kindly crewing for us. But really, I'm really, really pleased to get them as sponsors of the podcast because I think their products are great. Two absolutely brilliant people, but very eco focused, sustainable focused, healthy, kind of superfood focused.

Very. It's very real, real food. Like having. Having tried some things when I was down for the ultra run as well. It's. It's very, very Real, real food focused, which is really nice to see.

It is, isn't it? It's just clean ingredients. It's, you know, if you're going to be taking, I always think if you're going to be taking a lot of things like protein powders or that sort of stuff, you just got to make sure. Well, you know, I've heard several people say on the podcast, you included, you know, you've just got to make sure that the, the, the ingredient, the quality of the ingredients are, are there because you don't want to be piling lots of this, you know, a lot of crap inside you, do you? So, so I think it's really cool and listen out in a bit for a, for a discount for trying 33 fuel. But yeah, so we'll, we'll get Warren and Erica back on the podcast in due course to talk about a bit about the, what they're up to. But yeah, I'm really excited about working with them and also trying some more of their. I was, I was having their protein bars this morning actually and have you tried that? If you.

I tried some actually. When I came down it was like the pan forte, isn't it?

It is based on the Italian cake.

And it's really, it looks really beautiful actually, to be honest. It looked like something you pick up in a Italian coffee shop. It was.

Yeah, it is. It's very good. So we'll get them back on. Right. Anyway, for now, great to chat to you. Let's dive into the interview with Wand. This podcast is sponsored by 33 fuel. Now 33 fuel produce award winning natural sports nutrition and everything they do is led by their Fuelosophy for performance health and a fitter future. 33 Fuels Mighty products have been fueling triathletes worldwide since 2012 as well as many of the world's best athletes. Whether that be England football team, Tour de France winners and also triathlon world champions. In fact, four times Ironman world champ Chrissie Wellington has been using 33 fuel for years. 33 fuel also leads sports nutrition sustainability with plant based formulas for reduced environmental impact, recyclable packaging and also carbon neutral delivery as a free option on all orders. Rated by Runner's World as one of the top 50 eco hero companies worldwide. A portion of all of the 33 fuel sales also support reforestation initiatives. So if you want to find out more go to 33fuel.com and if you use the discount code Tribeathlon you will get a lovely discount at the checkout. And also if there's a Link in the show notes to take you through to that discount code as well. Enjoy.33fuel.com. Wonder Summers has an incredible story that demonstrates the power of the mind. She got into running by signing up for marathon Desables, billed as one of the toughest races on earth. So not an easy start, but life was about to get much harder. Soon after mds, she was paralyzed in a paragliding accident back near her home in Cornwall and was told that without surgery, she had a 0% chance of walking ever again. But Wanda ignored the advice, defied the odds, and now, not only is she walking, but she's back running ultramarathons again. Claire and I got the chance to chat to Wanda about her mental strength, about that mental strength through both racing and recovery, going from couch to marathon decables, the iconic races she's done since, and the secrets to running longer and faster. So I know you're going to really enjoy this incredible conversation with Wanda Summers. Now, Wanda is based in Cornwall and the Cornish Internet was not playing to our strength that day. So please forgive there is a little bit of disruption on the, on the line on this, but I'm sure you will agree it is well worth listening to the incredible story that is is Wanda Summers. So, Wanda, welcome to the Tribe Athlon podcast. Clare and I are really looking forward to chatting to you about what has been an incredible journey through running and what's happened to you during that time. So to kick things off, do you want to just tell us a little bit about yourself, but specifically, you know, how you got into running?

So let me think. I always used to walk miles and miles and miles and miles. And then I had my kids and I couldn't drive at the time, so I used to take them by bus to a school five miles away. And that's kind of how I started. So I used to walk back from the bus journey rather than wait for a bus back. And then it would, you know, rain. So it would turn into a bit of a jog. And then sort of bit by bit, it became a run from the school back to Porth Leven, which is where I was living, really. That was it, really. And then I, I got them into cycling when they were sort of 6 and 7. I made them cycle to school and I'd run behind them and it kind of. That's kind of it, really. And then I did that during term time as a necessity and one day in the holidays or something, oh, I quite fancy going for a run. That's it, really. Yeah. It wasn't very exciting, it wasn't very dramatic.

But. But I understand fairly early on you signed up for marathon Desables, which banded around as the toughest race on earth. Now, I'm not sure that it is the toughest race on earth, but. But it is a very tough race. So how did you get from running with your children to school while they were on the bike to marathon? The Sables? What made you sign up? How so soon did you sign up for it? And so tell us a bit about that.

So their school was about a mile and a half from the beach. And sometimes I would run down to the beach, so I just started running on the sand there. And I thought, that's much nicer than tarmac, because I had. Being not a natural runner whatsoever, I had every single running injury you can have, which makes me good at helping people with injuries because I've had them all. And I just. I just fell in love with running on the beach and I thought, oh, this is brilliant. I wonder if there's any races on the beach. And then I. About the desert race, I'll do that.

Like slightly larger expanse of spat of sand. But.

Yeah, but, you know, if you can run one mile, then you can run 100, can't you? There's no. It's no different.

So. So I think I might say is marathon decide. Is that six miles in seven days? Sorry, six marathons in seven days, is that right?

I think that's right, yeah. Roughly. And one long one.

Yeah. So a double marathon on day seven or something?

Few things like that. Yeah. Is it day four?

Is it something like day four or five or something?

No, no, it's not that day, but I can't actually remember now. That was 2008.

And. And so what made you think that? That if you could run like a mile to school and back, that you could run. Oh, sorry, the five miles to school. What made you think that you could go from that to, you know, six marathons in five days across the Sahara desert?

I'm probably just a bit stupid. I don't know. I just haven't got any concept of a barrier. You know, I've never. I've never thought, oh, no, that's three miles. Oh, no. I just figured it just sounded like a nice adventure. I didn't really think about it.

And.

So how long from running sort of like a few handful of miles from, you know, on the school run did you then have to get up to running the distances needed for marathon to Sam.

I entered it for in Two years time. No, was it two or two years? Something like that. So I'd started running probably, gosh, in 2000ish. And then. So I've been running fee. I don't know. I don't know. Do you know? I don't know because what happened was I. While I was doing this, I was thinking, because I read online, you know, you could have a team. So I thought, oh, I need to ask, see if somebody else wants to do it with me. That's mad. So I asked a friend of mine who'd never run in his life and another friend that lived in Bristol at the time, and I said, do you fancy doing it with me? And they both went, yeah, all right. See, they're as mad as I am. So. So that was why I had two years, because I needed to train my friend who had never run before. I needed to give him two years because he was from scratch and I knew he'd be quite stubborn and difficult because I was personal training at the time. So, you know, I did know a little bit about stuff, believe it or not. And my friend Michael did the training on his own in Bristol. I think he got a trainer perhaps, I can't remember now. So, yeah, that was why I gave myself two years from when I did my first run on the beach.

So you essentially did a couch to Marathon to Sable in.

Yeah, plus I needed to save up the money for the entry.

Absolutely. Entry and flights and everything else. I would imagine. So. So did you, did you do any other events, sort of endurance events, kind of ultra marathons, anything like that in the lead up to Marathon Zabul or did you just. That was just the first event.

I didn't do anything official. I did all my own this, you know, I did Lands End Visitor. Lands End. Oh, and of course I did. Yesterday I said no, I set them all up myself. I did a 13 hour event that I set up on the beach, up and down the beach, 13 hours and.

Ah, so this is the one. So I do remember hearing you talk about this. And this is at Pra San. This is the one that Par Sans, isn't it?

That's right, yeah.

And Ferg the. So Ferg has been on the podcast. How did Ferg get on in your 13 hour on pra Sands?

Crashed him.

Didn't he bail out?

You'll admit to. Because I'd never met him before and he turned up with a friend of his and they came with all their electrolytes tablets and they were all much more professional than me and I didn't have anything properly set up. This is before he did, you know, wherever it is he does my crew and all the races, the ark and stuff. And I had a little. Somebody put a little table for me and some water. And he's like, is this. Is this the event? I said, yeah, this is gonna run up and down. So we were running and the beach was on a camber. And he said, not going to be able to do that. You're going to end up injured because it's all on the camber. I said, well, it's all right because I'm running back the other way. So, you know, you swap the camber. He's like, oh, no. And then he's guzzling down his electrolytes and everything. And I think it was about six hours he lasted before he quit.

Is this all on one beach, Wanda?

Yeah, it's about a mile. It's just over. No, it's just less than a mile. The beach.

Wow. Okay, so lots of turning around.

Yeah, you turn around at the end and come back up. Yeah, but, yeah.

And so did you do the full 15 hours? Sorry, 13 hours.

13 hours. I set it up to be 30. I had this weird sort of theory because I'd never run any sort of distance of the slowest possible time I could do. Lands end to Lizard in, which is roughly the distance of one of the long days. You know, it's about 44 miles, which is roughly. I thought the slowest I could possibly do it is 13 hours. So if I can keep moving 13 hours, that's it. I can do it. So that was why I came up with 13 hours.

Fantastic. And how many. How many people finished this 13 hour event?

So it was only gonna be me, Michael, Mark, who are in the team doing it. And then people are going to join in and do bits of it or if they could do all of it. Ferg came with the intention of doing all of it, which I'll keep rubbing it in that he didn't, because really good friends are allowed to do that. It's a big tease. And yeah, Michael managed, I think nearly all of it, but he was injured and Mark did the whole lot as well. So we did the 13 hours. I can't remember how many hours Michael did now. And.

And so. So how did that marathon desable event go for you? Having kind of done a. A reasonable amount of training, but doesn't sound like loads of training. How did MDs go?

I did do a lot of training. I did do a lot of training. That that. No, I. Two years. It's loads of time. No, it was. I was hooked when I did it. I loved it. I loved every minute of it. That actually, in all honesty, the training was harder than the event because I went away to the Canaries and did running there. I was paragliding at the time as well, so I had a paraglider, which. And they're about 25 kilos, so hiking. Hiking around with one of those is really good training anyhow, so.

And there's a few about. So one of the lady, Kerry Sutton, who crewed for us at the Ark, is about to head out to do MDs for the third time, this time with her son. And so. And another mate of mine's about to head out and do it the first time. So I think it's an iconic race, isn't it? Knowing what you know about that race. Is there. Is there any advice that you would give people that are about to head out to do MDs?

Don't change your plans last minute. I think a lot of people suddenly have a panic and they read what someone else has done. I think, oh, God, they've got these special shoes and I've been running leashes on. Maybe I should do that and then stick with what you know, what's comfortable. It's really important. Don't suddenly get swayed because everybody's got an individual way of doing it. You know, it's the same with food. It's not really any good asking someone what they had. You've got to try it. So try all your food way ahead of time. Make sure you don't get any tummy upsets. That's really important. And don't change your shoes last minute.

Sounds like good advice to me.

Thank you. A decent sock.

Decent sock, decent socks. How do you keep the sand out of your shoes? Or is that just impossible?

You know, you either got feet that some people are just lucky and don't have feet that are prone to blistering, you will get sand in your feet, even with. In your shoes, even with gaiters. You just really, if you can do it, train on similar terrain, if you can get used to it. And wear gaiters, really, you know, there isn't really. Don't wear trail shoes, like really grippy trail shoes. It's so unnecessary. You want. I mean, I did it all in road shoes. Because it doesn't. There's no need. It's hard. It's either hard ground or soft sand. And soft sand you want, you know, wide surface area. You don't want stuff with lots of little nodules to sink the energy into. It's false economy, if you like, because you're having to then lift your leg out of it. So you want nice flat plane. So yeah, if you don't allow your foot to dig in.

Well, it sounds like good advice because you would assume that trail shoes would be the obvious selection.

You try running on sand with shoes with lugs in. It doesn't make any sense because it's just going to sink into it. You want a nice smooth, you know, like snowshoes. They don't have lugs, do they? You have, you know, and skis are nice and smooth.

Yeah. So actually a big pair of hokas with some big soles was probably as good as you're going to get, isn't it?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Big surface area is actually really good. Yeah.

I know a lot of people get like, do get lots of blisters where their feet also get really like damp as well, where they're using like socks to stop like sand going in. So what kind of socks do you have? Just like a really thin pair. I use.

I don't know if I can. I used X Bionic, which are one of my absolute favorite because they wick the sweat away. I didn't do anything different. I didn't wear double socks. Some people. This again, this is such a personal preference because everyone's feet are different. I've got really narrow feet, so I'm quite. I think that kind of helps. I think if you've got wide feet and you've got big calves, you're always at a disadvantage. There's always a pattern with. People with big calves tend to suffer more with their feet somehow. But I know some people use those, you know, what are they called? The socks with the little. I forgot the name of them. The individual toe, you know.

Oh, yes, I know what you mean.

Yeah. And it works for some. And I mean, I don't get on with them. But again, it's different feet, doesn't it? You can't, you can't really say. And your foot shape makes a difference of fitting of your sock makes a difference. I had brand new pair.

As your feet get warmer as well, they're going to expand, aren't they? So every. Everything kind of. Yeah.

You see again, that's another. That's a different. You see, I've got Raynards, which is quite lucky. So my feet are permanently cold, so I don't feel any heat on my feet, which is probably an advantage. So I I'm the other way around. I kind of like this time of year still. I need double pair of socks here because it's too cold for me. So. Yeah, it. It really varies. So it's really. Test it yourself.

Yeah, that. I was going to say. That's the key, isn't it? It's to test it on the side.

Yeah. Try all your kit. Don't get it all last minute.

Yeah.

You know, you training it or. I. I bought two bags, the same. I had one as a training bag because the ultralight stuff, so, you know, it's brilliant, but it doesn't last any time whatsoever. And in Cornwall, you're always running through brambles. So I had a training bag and then I bought the same bag that I was going to use. I know it's an expensive way of doing it, but it's. It keeps it fresh, otherwise it's all ripped by the time you get to do it. Yeah, but training the bag. What I'm saying is training the bag you're going to use. Yeah. For example, training the socks you're going to use, training the shoes you're going to use. There's no point doing it all, you know, suddenly changing it.

Yeah, that's fantastic advice. Now, I understand that you came back from mds. Loved it, found something different. I wanted something similar and signed up to the Gobi Desert.

Yeah.

Something then quite dramatic happened that stopped you doing the Gobi Desert race for a period of time. Tell us a bit about what happened.

Yes. So it all happened on the same year. So 2008, I did the math and the Saab came back, signed up. And then December 2008, I had a paragliding accident. I broke my back. So that put a stop to that straight away.

So tell us, describe what that parrot, what happened in that paragliding accident. You don't mind?

No. What, so, well, I came down quite hard, the wing collapsed. I was on a winch doing it and the wing collapsed, so I didn't have any. Anything to slow me down and I bounced on the ground and I completely obliterated my L4 lower back vertebrae. And. Yeah.

And. And you were taken off to. Yeah. So tell us a bit about your story around going off to the hospital and what happened while you were at the hospital.

Okay. So I came down to the ground and I was fully conscious and. I knew then that right away it was major because I was very listless and normally I'm quite feisty when it comes to anything medical. So when the air ambulance turned up And I got flown to Trelisk Ventura Truro Hospital. Oh, it's a cut. Long story short. Anyway, they took me in, finally got an X ray. They're not allowed to say anything. And the radiographer was all cheery, cheery, cheery. Looked at my pictures and his face just said it all, really. And as he turned around to go, he just said, good luck. And so I thought, this is not great. And, yeah, the diagnosis basically was it severed through my nerves, my lower back, and I had a 30% chance of walking again if I have. If I had surgery. They said, no chance if I don't have the surgery, because all the little fragments of my vertebrae gone into my spinal canal and I lost my legs at the time.

And so you're given a 30% chance of walking if you had surgery, zero chance of walking if you didn't have.

Surgery, according to the consultant. So, you know.

And so what decision did you make?

So I, at the time, I still had my bowel and bladder working. And in my mind, anyway, I was sure I had a little bit of sensation in my left foot, which I cleaned because the test was. They'd come by and they'd get a pen lid, rub it down your foot and then say, can you feel anything? And before you had a chance again, no, no, I didn't think so. And I said, no, no, I didn't. And they go, no, no, no, you're just imagining it. It's just left over, you know, phantom nerve pain, whatever. Anyway, I didn't believe it, so I forgot what the question was. Where were we?

The question was, what did you. With the information of having 30 chance of water?

Oh, yeah, what did I do? That's.

Yeah, what do you do?

So anyway, I got taken to Derriford where the guy and said, right, we put you in to have the surgery without asking me. And I said, well, what. What are the options? Are there any other options? And they said, no, you know, nobody would want to just lie there for weeks and hope it fixes. I said, well, I do. So I opted for conservative treatment, which is basically lying there flat and not moving for 12 weeks, which they were so opposed to. I can't tell you. It was such a battle. They really didn't want me to do it. So much so that in the night, the. I don't know what the consultants, the sort of his helper. I don't know what they call. Yeah, that's the one. He would fling it in the curtain, because I had a curtain, and go, have you changed the mind yet, you know, sort of trying to. And I said, I said, well, you see, my theory was if it doesn't work after 12 weeks, then I can look into surgery. I'd rather give it a go because the surgery was so drastic and all I, you know, wanted to do was run at the time I had got it.

Would they fuse your. Were they going to fuse your spine then? Is that what they were going to do?

Yeah, yeah. From mid back L1, you know, your bra strap area, if you wear a bra. And to my L4, they were going to take all the fragments out and then put a rod in and fuse it so that I have to go in through my back to take the bones out and then through my front to fuse it.

And what would have been the downside of that?

The risk is that it didn't. That they severed more nerves and severed my bowel and my bladder.

Right.

As well, you see. And it.

You'd have less stability, wouldn't you? To a certain degree as well.

Oh yeah, exactly. As well. If I did get walking again, you know, chances of running with that would be. And surgery just, you know, I'm not saying you shouldn't do surgery again. It's my. It was a personal choice. You know, people say to me, what do you think I should do? And it's always got to be up to you. But to me, surgery just means more surgery. You know, 10 years down the line, it wears out. You need more stuff done. Whereas the human body muscle tissue, it's always repairing, always growing and there's change and there's a chance for things to alter. Once you take it out and put metal in there, that's all you've got. There is no change. That's as good as it's ever going to get because there's nothing. There's no way it can get any different, you know.

And so what happened over. So, so how did you go through the next 12 weeks? Did you literally just have to stay lying on your back for the entirety of the 12 weeks?

Yeah, completely.

And how did that evolve after that?

How did it evolve?

Well, in terms of. How quickly could you then start to. Did you start to progress?

This is such a boring story. So I was told I'd have to stay in hospital for three months and lie flat on my back. And obviously I had two little boys at the time. I still do, but they're big boys now. But I wanted to see them regularly, so I asked to be transferred. This was. I'd been flown to Derry, taken To Derriford by ambulance. They wanted to put me into Salisbury. I didn't want to go to Salisbury because it was too far away to see anyone. So they took me to Trelisk. And not disrespecting them, they don't have the expertise there for backs, which I knew, but seeing as all I was doing was lying there, I didn't see what difference it made where I lay. Anyway, while I was there, I got the kid's dad would smuggle in weights for me so I could keep moving my upper body while I'm lying flat. And I would do everything I wasn't allowed. Like I'd pull my legs up, I put a little pedometer on the stockings. You know, you have to wear those stockings to stop getting blood clots. I've forgotten the name of them. And I'd make myself lift my legs up until I reach a certain number on the pedometer. So all the time I was thinking rehab, rehab the whole time. And then I got into endless arguments with the doctors and in the end one of the nurses said, why don't you get Steve the kids dad at the time, well, he was always kid's dad, but we weren't together. But anyway, he was looking after me to register as your carer. So I discharged myself from hospital. It was a hall mission because we broke every rule. I had to lie that there were no steps to his house until we got there. And the ambulance men said, you said there were no steps and we're not allowed to take you up there. And I'd already lined up a friend of mine called Jeff who was Cornwall, one of Cornwall's strongmen, and some other people to help lift me because I knew there'd be an argument anyway. This sounds so ridiculous, Randy, you had.

Three months to think about this though, didn't you?

I broke a lot of rules. So anyway, I managed to persuade one of the ambulance, the paramedics to carry me into Steve's house. I had to have a special bed sent because I was still lying flat, because I discharged myself at eight weeks, so I still had another four weeks to go. And the only reason why they allow me to do it is because I managed to get a little something really good friends who are lifeguards who agreed to say they would come in and log roll me, which is, you know, lie you onto your side so you can change the bedding because if you don't get moved, you can get bed sores and all the rest of it. These poor lifeguards were Just agreeing to, okay, we'll do that. We don't know what we're in for. So anyway, that was a big lie because I never bothered having that done, I think, one time. And then my security was. So I was supposed to have someone with me all the time. Of course, that wasn't practical, you know, so one of my friends, in fact it was Mark, brought me a fire, one of those fire extinguishers that was really high because I was left alone and I was. I couldn't leave the bed, obviously, because I was still paralyzed. I at least had a fire extinguisher. So if there was a fire, I'd be all right.

Safety.

Health and safety all the way. Yeah. So from there I just wrote shopping list after shopping list of bizarre exercise equipment. My little stepper to put at the end of my bed so I could try and make my legs move into it. I bought. You know, there's crazy fads of those ab things, electrodes on your abs to make your muscles stimulate. I got one of those to put on my legs to try and get my leg muscles stimulating. Oh, God. I tried everything. Bands, you name it. While I was lying there, poor old Steve went to Argos with all these crazy things to try. And I had my laptop. I was researching, you know, right off to university in Australia. Backs of stuff, you know, about nerve stimulation. And so, yeah, so anyway, it's absolutely amazing.

And so how long was it before you started taking a few steps?

So, okay, so at 12 weeks, I had an agreement. The hospital had said that at 12 weeks, I'd be taken back to Salisbury to have a scan to see if my bones had knitted, to see. From there, I'd be allowed to sit up because remember, I'm lying flat the whole time. 12 weeks came rung the hospital, they'd forgotten to book me in. So they said, oh, we can't fit you in for another two weeks. And I said, I've been lying flat for 12 weeks, counting down every minute, every day for this day. Another two weeks is eternity. Anyway, because of that and because I figured after 12 weeks, if your bones haven't knitted by then, they're never going to knit. I called a friend of mine who's a chiropractor to come and give me a pelvic stability test to see if my pelvis was stable so that I didn't have any changes of sensation. She came over, said she believes I'm okay. I've had another friend who sells wheelchairs. She came over with a wheelchair And I decided at 12 weeks, I would sit up on my own. I wouldn't wait for this mri. So you're in one. You know, I'm in an electric bed. So you have buttons so you can, you know, it zooms up, down. So on the day. On the very day at 12 weeks, I press the button to zoom myself up. This is the first time ever sat up. I got up, up, up, and then I just passed out because, you know, you've been lying flat 12 weeks, all that pressure drop. So I had to do this for about an hour before I could actually sit up for at least 30 seconds without passing out. So I did that once. I could do that. I then would sit up, and then I try and take my weight and make the rest of the bed go back down. Does that make sense? It came up with me and then went back and I'd try and, you know, stay upright and see if anything else changed. Once I was able to do that, my friend with a wheelchair, after a lot of persuasion and my friend, who is also the strongman guy, they came over again and helped me into the wheelchair. Oh, dear. Please don't let me get arrested now 12 weeks, all these years later for doing all these things. Anyway, they got me into a wheelchair, carried me outside, took me onto the coast path, and I just went AWOL because I hadn't seen my. You know, I hadn't been outside for 12 weeks, came back to the house, and Jeff, he's called, he said, right, I'm going to carry you back in the house, because he can just carry, you know, you can basically carry me in the wheelchair with one hand. And I said, well, hold on a minute. Let me see if I can take the weight on my feet. And Jeff said, I don't think that's a good idea, really, because, you know, maybe just gone outside. I said, well, let me just see what it feels like, my feet on the ground. And this is. This guy's a big guy. You know, he's the sort of guy, if you saw in the alleyway, he'd be like, oh, God, you know, be terrified. So he went white as a sheik. I thought he was gonna faint because he watched me as I put my feet down on the ground. And there's a photograph of this. Actually, it was the very first time I took steps and I pushed the weight off it because luckily I've been doing all these weights. Remember what I mean now? So I had some strength arms, and I put myself up onto my feet and I pushed up And I managed to stand up and I, you know, it was absolutely incredible. And I took about three steps, it was before I couldn't take anymore and collapse back down into wheelchair. And I thought, well, if I can do that, I can go back and do another marathon. It's the same mentality, isn't it? It's exactly the same. Do three steps, you can do 10 steps, you can do 10 steps,. You can do 100. It's the same thing. And that's like I said, I've never got any barriers. So that's all I needed. I just needed to know I could do that many, to know that I'll be able to do it all again.

So was the next race or the next sort of long, long run that you did? The Gobi Desert one?

Yeah, because I entered it before I dragged my back and I emailed them and I must have been probably a bit high on morphine at times because I was a really matter of fact email where I said, oh, I'm gonna, you know, I've just had a accident and I've broken my back. I don't know if I'll walk again, but if I can walk again, is it okay if I defer the race to next year?

And unlike Ironman, they said yes.

Yeah, that's no problem. I mean I'm really confronted them all now. I think, I think they must have thought she's a complete fruitcake. But I say, yeah, I did. I couldn't do it 2009 because that, because I didn't start walking until March, till March 18th or something. 21st or something. And then I. It was a year later. So it was 2010, March 2010, I did the Gobi Desert Race.

That's absolutely incredible, isn't it? And how long is the Gobi Desert Race? The same distance as mbs?

Exactly. Same format as mds. They're the same formats. They're racing the planet and they do the adventure races exactly the same.

It's absolutely incredible that you. And did you, did you have any repercussions after doing the, the Gobi Desert Race? As in, as in to do with your back other than not blisters, but like with your back. Did it, did it aggravate anything or.

My back's never been. I mean I've still got, I don't have any feeling my feet and I still get a lot of nerve pain. So I mean I wasn't a lot. I still had a lot of nerve pain but it didn't get any worse from it. If that if. That. I don't remember it getting any worse. It wasn't actually. It was surprisingly. I don't like to say easier, but it wasn't as hard as. No, I didn't know what. No, it was hard, but it wasn't. Don't know.

No, it just surprises me because, you know, just from running, I remember when we did the. When we did the arc, you know, for 13 hours, you're running with a pack on your back, and that by the end of the day, by the end of that, I'd got. I mean, it didn't hurt a lot, but I could feel it on the base of my back. But that's a much lighter pack than you'll be carrying for MDs or.

It was a Raid light bag. And I really love. Love Raid like bags because you can adjust the shoulders so that shoulders take the weight some of the times more than your back, and then sometimes you can tighten. I like that transfer of weight. So if I felt at my back, I'd make sure that my shoulders were taking it more by loosening the waist strap. And I was constantly playing around with that, so I never had a continuous. I think exactly the same the whole time doesn't help. And having something really close fitting is really important. So if you have a bag that slightly bounces on your back, it's terrible, because even if you don't realize it at the time, that constant is gonna. So really good fitting bag and weight transferral is really good. Make sure you have a waist strap. Make sure you have. And I had an extra. I did modify my bag. I made an extra chest strap, so it was sort of tight all around, like, almost like a body vest with it, just so there was no movement whatsoever. That makes a lot of difference.

Okay, fantastic.

You know, being aware of your posture a lot. Although I did look like a little old lady.

Understandable. And the fact that you even contemplated doing it is amazing, let alone actually completing it. How did. How did the Gobi Desert race compare to mds? We all know about MDS because it's, you know, it's. It's very well publicized, but I don't really know much about the Gobi Desert version. How did. How did the two compare?

It's. I have to say, it's hard. It is harder. It's. The terrain is harder. It's just. They always have raising the planet, always have river crossings, so it's really hard on your feet. I don't know if the WI fi is gone at this point.

Actually, it just dropped Out. But I think it was. Okay, I'll get you to answer that. Okay, hang on. Let me just make a note of that.

Sorry.

We'll just give it a second, actually, because you've now frozen, which means that it's not up. Looks like you might be back again.

No, probably my.

It's the good Cornish wi fi. A good Cornish broadband. That's all right. Don't worry. We'll just give it a second and hopefully it'll kick in again. Let me just. I'm just gonna make a note of this. Are you. How are we doing? Try speaking now.

How's this now?

And we've got. We had a bit of a delay then, but the video is not working. But that doesn't. That doesn't matter because we don't use. We won't use the video. No, it doesn't sound like the audio sounds okay now, though, so we'll carry on. So I'll just. So if you are. I obviously asked the question about the Gobi Desert versus Marathon Desable, so I start that answer over again. How do the two compare?

Well, they're totally different locations. And I'll say the Gobi was harder. I think terrain wise, it's harder. It's. But again, it's a personal thing for me. For me, it was a harder race. Mind you, I had just broken my back. But.

Is it from. Is it a more scenic race or which. Which is the most sort of, kind of feels more iconic?

Well, I absolutely love the Goby. There was something about the Gobi desert I just completely fell in love with. I loved the heat and the humidity of it. But that. That year that I did, it was a particularly humid one. And in fact, it's very sad because a competitor died during that race because of. The conditions were really. Were difficult and there was a huge dropout rate. I think. I think at least 60 competitors dropped out.

Wow.

Wow. Yeah, it was a hard one.

Are you particularly fond of racing on sand and in the desert? Have you done more of these since?

Yeah, I've done about. I've done, what, seven now? Something like that.

All in the desert?

I'm not sure. Yeah, desert. Yeah. Jordan, White desert, Atacama Desert.

And again, of all of the different desert races, which one. You know, which. What's the pros and cons of the. Which ones are your favorite?

I suppose I think the Gobi is by far one of my favorite ones. And then Namibia, I love that one as well. Oh, and I've done Gran Canaria, Gran Canaria, Grand to grand in the Grand Canyon. That's a different company. That's another brilliant, brilliant, brilliant race.

And so just to be clear. Sorry, sorry, say again.

Atacama was a difficult.

Was it. The Namib Desert? It is the Namib Desert in Namibia, isn't it? Is that right? That.

Yeah.

Like I've always wanted to go to Namibia, so that would be a really cool race to do. I would think. It must be the scenery, the sort of. The dunes there are kind of very famous, aren't they? So it must be fantastic to be running through that. Is that. But it strikes me that that would be just a nightmare running through. I mean, like just trying to get to walk up. It would be pretty difficult. Is it? How much of that is on hard surface and how. You know, like on the sort of salt plains and how much is on. On sand?

I think there's more sand in that one. And then. Well, actually, you know what? I can't remember. There was one day that it was all sand and we ran a lot of. It's along the coast. We ran through a seal colony and then you've got. What are they called? Hyenas. Yes, hyenas. At night time. It's a skeleton case that we ran along.

That's. That's. I'm just adding this to my bucket list as we speak. This is a. This is a future Tribathlon episode I can see in the making. Running through the Namib Desert.

I do want to do that one again because all the other ones I've always won age category and that's the only one I haven't won my age category on. So I've got. I need to go back and do that because with the gay. I think. I think I came 8th in Gabi or something like that. I can't remember now. And I've always like wanted to be in the top 20 but I didn't make it in Namibia one.

Well, maybe. Maybe we'll all do it together one day. That sounds fantastic. Incredible ways.

Yeah. The one with racing the planet starts on my birthday. So it'd be better if it finished.

On your birthday thing, I think, wouldn't it? It'd be nice to finish my birthday, but. But either way is really cool, isn't it? So. So are there any other iconic races that you haven't done that you're particularly. You've particularly got your heart set on?

I want to do. I haven't got any. I want to do some in Japan but I don't know which one yet. I Want to do Namibia again? I want to do Hawaii, which is. I think I forgot the name of it. I think it's Maui to Maui. No, what's it called? I forgot what it's called. It's. It's done by the people that do grand to Grand. I've forgotten the name of that one.

And is that a similar format to MDS in terms of distance?

Yeah, I like that format because especially with my back, it's so unpredictable. I can't tell you what I'm going to be like tomorrow. There's just no rhyme or reason. So if I do one on, you know, multiple days, I stand a good chance. On the days that it's good, it's really good. And on the days it's bad, it's really bad. So I make up my time lost. It's always better on longer distance. So I try and the hotter the better.

There's a lot of people that wouldn't say that, but that, that does. Yeah. I think it's amazing. Now as a, as a. You're also a personal trainer, aren't you? So I'm sort of asking this next question with that hat on, but also with your, you know, your experience of running but also your recovery from being paralyzed. What do you think the secrets are to running longer and also faster?

You need to be a bit mental. You need to not have one of those brains that goes, if I finish, you have to decide that that's what you're going to do. The moment you put a little bit doubt in it, you're not. Most of the time, you're not going to do it. I never ever start anything with the thought of if I'm going to do it. There's just, no, there's no doubt about it. I am going to do it. You know, I picture every worst case scenario like breaking my leg and I still picture myself getting to the end. And so I think you need a bit of that, you need a bit of that sort of fight.

I guess having that real sort of mental, like from a psychology point of view, being able to get yourself through anything was probably what brought you through your whole rehabilitation, you know, from your back and that kind of. I'm absolutely going to run again. It's really interesting.

I don't have. I'm not one of those people that has obstacles in the way. I tend to say yes to everything and then worry about it after. I don't think, oh, how am I going to do that? Because of this, because of this, because of this. My brain Just doesn't work like that. I just think once I get there, I'll work it out. I think that helps.

I think that's a great mindset for stupid. It's a great mindset for doing endurance stuff, isn't it? And challenges like that is. I'm going to finish. I'm not entirely sure how yet, but I am going to finish. And even visualizing finishing, that's. That's really important.

Yeah, completely. There's no point going into something thinking, oh, well, you know, I'll try and do it, or I might do it, or if I do it, or there's just no point thinking like that. It doesn't get you anywhere because you're going to have some point when, especially on the long one, you're going to have these demons that come in and sort of going, why are you doing this? Why are you being such an idiot? Why are you putting yourself through. This is really hard. Why don't you just quit? So if you're strong at the beginning, you'll be able to beat that. But it's very easy to let that take over and think, oh, you know what? Why am I doing this again? Oh, I think I'll just go home. You know, there are people that just suddenly stop for no reason. They just sort of sit there. Oh, you know what? Actually, I don't. I can do it today. Really? Really, really. You've gone this far and it's crazy. It's. You know, I mean, I've done a lot of marshalling for the ark and stuff, and the worst, worst thing you do is get comfortable at a checkpoint.

There's no chance of getting comfortable at checkpoint if you're running with Claire.

Fudge.

Like, comfortable. Jesus. It's like I'm just trying to get the bits that I need and she's already off again.

That is the secret, though. I mean, this is the thing. What's the point? You can worry about at the finish, can't you? It's a bit like people that faff around changing their shoes. What do you do that for? Worry about it when you're done. You know, what a waste of time. All those seconds where just go, you know, do what you need to do at checkpoint, Grab a bit of water, go. Not sit down and start blooming fiddling around.

Yeah, I do agree. It was good to have that mental discipline of, hang on, Claire's off again. Bloody hell, I better go. But.

Good. I'm not exactly aligned.

Do you have any. So when you're in these long races, do you have any kind of mental tactics that you use for staying positive to avoid those times where you're thinking, oh God, can.

I'm a really kind of positive person, so I tend to enjoy things and I have a really good sense of humor. So I mean, I'm one of the worst ones. I've had hypothermia on two of the races and I don't. Even then I didn't think I'm gonna stop doing it. I just, I just kind of. I don't make a joke out of it. Most of the time I don't. I'm trying to think. I just. Well, and it's the money, isn't it? You pay all that money and I.

Support you, I suppose also. So when you've got through being paralyzed, basically being told you've got no chance of walking if you don't have this operation, and then to be a year later doing another ultra multi day ultra marathon, it's like, well, if you've got that mindset to get through that really, I suppose everything else must seem fairly easy afterwards.

Kind of, yeah. I think that's just the way my brain's wired, really. I don't, I don't have a. If you, if one person can do it, what, what's to stop you doing it? You know, the only thing that stop people is the way you think about it. You know, if you, if you've got the determination, if you want to do something, do it. It really isn't all. It isn't meaning to sound airy, fairy and hippie. If you really want to do something, you will do it.

When you'll find the children's lives depended on you getting to the end of it, you'd get to the end of it, wouldn't you?

Exactly. I mean, I use that all the time, you know, or, you know, people suddenly find the energy to run for a bus at the end or run, you know, do. It's always in you. It's the mental fire of getting that going that that makes a difference. Your body is secondary to it. You know, you can do all the training in the world. If you've got the kind of brain that's doesn't have that passion or drive, you're not going to get there. You know, the training is, I think, part two, it's having the mental is the flag, isn't it?

You're absolutely right. There is a great book by Alex Hutchinson called Endure, which looks at how people find that extra strength in times of where. Where it, where is Life and death and they find strength that they've never had in their life before or afterwards or they found levels of endurance. And. And it is. There is something in our brain that says, no, no, I'm going to keep this bit back. I'm not going to let you have this bit. Oh, wait, hang on. It's really, really important. Okay, fine, you can have it.

Or.

Oh, you know, it's like the ultra runners that can only walk after 60 miles, but then they put a PB in on their last 10k because their brain's just gone. Yeah, okay, fine, you have this little bit now. I can see the finish line. So it's amazing how kind of endurance is about tapping into the right. The right thought processes.

I mean, you know, there are going to be other things that make it lucky. Not having injuries and having a higher pain threshold perhaps helps. People's perception of pain is different. So fear is another big sort of problem. People are always scared, oh, what if I do something to myself and that's it, I'll never be able to do it again. It's that, oh, I thought I better stop because I didn't want to make things worse. This is a funny one, you know. Well, I thought I didn't want to wreck my knee for the forever if I pushed myself. What difference if it's hurting now and you get to the end, there's no difference really. You're not going to really make it. I mean, I've got, there's some, I've got friends that have had. There's a guy called Paul Radford, I don't know if you've heard of him. He's an amazing, amazing ultra runner. He's had endless knee operations from. I think it was rugby. He first. He never, ever does things like that. He never thinks, oh, my knees gonna conquer if I keep pushing myself for it. It just fixes it and goes on. You know, it's that sort of. You just, you can make excuses really easily. But if you've got the confidence to think, well, I'm going to get through, I'm going to get through it. You will get through it, won't you? You know, we. Yes. Sometimes people wake up in the morning, oh, God, that's it. I think I've come to the end of whatever. I can't move, I can't do this. Well, you just have to adapt. You just have to change things slightly or change your type of race or change the goalpost or. But the end is only in your brain, isn't It. You only finish the moment you decide you've had enough. Your body doesn't really. Your body. I mean, look at athletes. People think, oh, they must be some kind of superhuman, because how do they do that? Because they put a lot of training into it because they keep going. That's what it is. They're not suddenly born with. I mean, you know, they are, obviously, they have good genetics, but it's that. That fire and it's the.

You're right, it's not. People see athletes doing it, going, oh, well, you know, they must have been born with that talent or, you know, they've done. You know, they see. They see. We only see the tip of the iceberg, don't we? It's all of that, those little bits of training that build up, that produce the results, isn't it?

Yeah, absolutely. It's the sort of thought that they must not feel pain like we do, and, oh, we're so much worse because, oh, you know, I've got this bad knee. Well, you know, so does every. So today's guys.

It'S an incredible story how you've gone through. From. Through this, you know, recovery. And it sounds like a fantastic book to me, but whether. Whether. So I'm not sure whether you're intending to ever write it as a book, but I do want to ask you. So as well as answering that, I'd like you to. I'd like to ask you something. I ask every guest, which is, have you read any other books that you found really inspiring that you think others. Other people might. Might, you know, books you find yourself recommending?

As for running books, go. You know, I don't know if it's the same with you guys, but everybody always buys me running books for Christmas because that's what they think I'll do. I actually don't tend to like reading running books, which sounds really daft because I'd rather do the running myself. But I did read, years ago ago, I did read Paula Radcliffe's autobiography, which I actually really liked. And, you know, she's not an option or anything. I mean, she runs incredible marathons. But I did. I like that she sounds so human now. She's one that suffers every injury. You know, it's quite. I find her really nice and raw to read. She. So, yeah, she. She. I can't remember the actual title of the book. It's a Paula Radkin book. And Bruce Lee. It's nothing to do with running. But he's broke.

Yeah, actually, so the Bruce Lee book is fantastic. I'M about halfway through that at the moment. That is fantastic. That's really good book. Yeah. I was going to ask you for a non running book as well, given what you'd said, but it sounds like Bruce Lee is the recommendation there and it's. Yeah, fantastic. Well, Wanda, it's been absolutely brilliant chatting to you there. It's such an incredible story and I mean, like, huge congratulations on being so determined and sticking to your guns and, and getting through what must have been an incredibly challenging time. You, you know, you laugh it off as if it was, you know, you've clearly got an amazingly positive mindset, but, you know, I have no doubt it was an incredibly challenging time and the fact that you've come back and done ultramarathon after ultramarathon is brilliant and hopefully one day the three of us can all be running through the Namib Desert together. And in the meantime, maybe even a run in Cornwall.

Yeah, brilliant.

Well, Wanda, it's been absolutely fantastic chatting to you. Thank you so much for your time.

Oh, thank you for having me. It's very kind.

If you want to find out more about Wanda, you can go to her website, which is Wanda spelled W A n d a wandasummers.co.uk she is PT Wandasummers on Facebook and she is W Summers on Instagram. So, Claire, what did you make of that interview with Wanda?

Well, it's just a phenomenal story, isn't it? I think, I think the one, the one thing for me is in endurance sport you've got to, and this is what I've always said, like from a psychological point of view, you've really got to be able to kind of push yourself to the limits and she absolutely 100% does that. So I can totally understand why she can ultra run.

I think it's just incredible. I mean, the, I can't say any, any nice way, the balls that she had to be able to turn down that surgery, essentially on an inkling, despite the pressure and the, you know, the advice and the, and the probably undue pressure from the consultants and the people in hospital which would have only been doing it because they thought it was absolutely best for. I mean, this is, you know, they're not doing it to be nasty, are they? But to go through that and, you know, to, to beat it and then go back to ultra running, I think is phenomenal. It's absolutely phenomenal.

I think you saw that mindset right from the very beginning when she, you know, when she just signed up, didn't really know what she Was doing. Signed up to the marathon. Deserve, you know, like I just. Yeah. And I just think. And she, you know, she talked about the fact that people, people stop, you know, near to the end and we, you know, we see that in Ironman, don't we? People stop. Do you think you've got five miles to go? Like it's just. Yeah. It's really, really interesting how she talked about kind of mindset and things and not really thinking about things until kind of you really have to. And you know, not thinking about not finishing, um, was, was really interesting and a really good way to think about things. I think like going into a race or if you're first, you know, doing a race for a first time, no matter what, what kind of race it is or competition that, you know, completing it is going to happen.

Yeah. Visualizing finishing and just going, I'm not trying to do it, I am doing it. Really, really brilliant. I love the fact that it was like the couch to MDs. You know, forget couch to 5K, I'm just going couch to MDs.

I thought she was actually going to say she was going to do, you know, chase the train. I thought she was going to do chase the bus. Well, that was the next story coming when she's talking about with the children at school.

What I also loved about chatting to her was she, she opened up a world that I didn't know existed in the multi day racing. Like we all know of MDs. You know, we all know people that have done it and I'd love to do it at some point but a bit of me thinks it's a bit too cliche. You know, everyone's, everyone's done MDs. Clearly they haven't. But whereas things like the Gobi Desert, particularly the Namib desert. I thought that sounded really cool.

It was unfortunate. I listened to that on this podcast. Yeah, sounds good, doesn't it?

It does. Sounds, sounds like a proper adventure and. Yeah. And you know, if there's any motivation issues at that point, a few hyenas or cheetah. Cheetah aren't really going to worry you too much. But a few hyenas might, you know, keep you running if you're, if you're feeling a lack of motivation.

Penguins. What did she say it was? Seal.

There was a seal colony, but with seals often comes great white sharks, I suspect. Well, actually, no, I, I think that would be. It's the right side of Africa for that. So yeah, probably don't want to go for a swim if there's seals around. But no, I thought, I thought it was a really interesting chat. A very determined lady. And yeah, you could, you could really see it got me thinking actually. There's a, there's a lady, there's a, there's a story, I think I read about it in, At Arahan Finn's book the Rise of the Ultra Runner. And there's a, there's a, there's a story about a lady who was a very average runner and then she had a, she had something like a car accident or something and she lost the ability to make short term memories and literally overnight she went from an average runner to a top ultra runner because she just didn't, she couldn't make the short term memories to say I'm knackered and therefore she, she didn't have the sort of internal chatter and therefore she could run far better. And I'm not suggesting that that's happened with Wanda, but there is something about Wanda's mindset that is, I'm just going to do this and I'm going to, and that's, that's what's going to happen. And clearly that has helped her in both recovering from being paralyzed and, and her endurance racing. So, yeah, really, really interesting. Well, I hope you enjoyed that episode. And Claire, keep up the great training. Hope it all continues to go from strength to strength. I'm sure it will do. And for everybody else, if you enjoyed episode, please do share. Five star reviews are always appreciated. Share it with your mates as well. If you didn't think it was good, maybe don't share that bit, but I'm sure you did. And in the meantime, keep on training. And remember, this podcast was sponsored by 33 fuel. So rethink your sports nutrition with 33 fuel award winning natural sports nutrition for your performance, health and a fitter Future. It's the 33 Fuel Fuelosophy. Get yours@33fuel.com and if you use the discount code Tribeathlon or the link in the show notes, you'll get a discount at the checkout. If you enjoyed this podcast, please do review it and share it because it helps other people find what we think is really valuable learning lessons from amazing athletes. So please do that. You can also find the whole back catalogue@tribathlon.com and you can also find out about the Tribe Athlon app which helps people find events, find people to train with and enjoy their events through their tribe. So check out tribathlon.com.