Tokyo medal highs and lows with Morgan Pearson

Foreign.

I'm charlie redding.

And I'm claire fudge, and this is.

The tribe athlon podcast.

My legs hurt so bad and they were so tight and so messed up, I couldn't even lift up my. You know, I couldn't lift up my leg to get over my seat, my saddle, and it was just. I just stood there, like, shaking for probably five minutes.

That was American triathlete Morgan Pearson, and this episode is Tokyo. Medal highs and lows. Hey, Claire, how you doing?

Good, thank you. How are you?

I am good, thank you. I'm good. How's the training going?

Yeah, quite a bit of it at the moment. I hear your training's ramping up as well.

Yeah, it is. I've got Will Clark to blame for this. I've. I've signed up with the Riot Racing crew and got him coaching me. And I now know how you feel in that he's got me doing two chefs, two sessions a day. So today it was only. Actually wasn't kind of full two sessions. Today it was a. A tough run and some yoga session. Yesterday it was turbo and swim. The day before it was turbo and running. Yeah, two a day. I don't know.

Welcome to the world of Ironman triathlon.

You've got away without doing two a day until now.

Well, it'd be interesting to see, won't it, like, the difference in terms of, like, kind of performance and things as well for you, and also recovery, like, you know, that's going to be something to really sort of think about if you're doing two sessions as well.

I'm really intrigued by it, but I'm also slightly worried because I've got three weeks, three weeks out of the office coming up. In a week and a half or so's time, I'm like, well, I'm down in Cornwall with the family and kind of off. I'm not gonna be able to do. I'm not gonna be able to say, oh, by the way, at 4 o', clock, I'm off for another hour and a half on the bike or something. So I'm. Yeah, you have to. I'm going to make the most of it for the next week and a half and then. Then I might have to rein it back to one a day again.

But that, you know, that's also life, isn't it? And trying to fit in life around triathlon when we're not professional athletes as well. It is. They also have to fit in stuff around their training, don't they?

So they do. And. Yeah. And I Suppose. But what it's been, what's been really interesting is I looked at it initially and went, oh my God, how am I going to fit all that in? And then, because he's put it in there and I don't want to, you know, I want to be a good student and do what I'm told. I'm like, okay, how am I going.

To make it work?

And I have made it work so far. So, so yeah, it's been, it's been a good lesson in if you put the most important things into your diary first, everything else fits around it, doesn't it? So it's all about prioritization. So what's been going on in the world of nutrition? What can we, what can you tell us about what's been coming out of the.

Always. Yeah, there's always some really interesting bits of nutrition and sometimes it's like old research that comes to the forefront, but there's a new paper that's, well, kind of pre, pre release and it's kind of really sort of exclusive. It's exclusive. It's not quite.

You heard it here first.

Yeah, but it's, it's really good. So it's, it's basically a review paper written by some well known nutrition professors. So you guys will be able to get hold of it if you, if you wanted to. But it's basically kind of looking at the idea of supplementation and using kind of food as approach, like in, in, in training and racing. And I think it just has a really nice kind of summary as to why like as sports nutritionists and dietitians, why we talk about trying to get in as much as we can from food. But actually there are some times where we need to use supplements and there's very much a crowd and I don't know, kind of where you sit in that camp in terms of there's some people that don't use any supplements at all and then, you know, what do we define as a supplement? And some people that use loads and loads but then don't really get very much from their diet. And I, you know, we've always been very much about using food first as an approach, as dietitians, but that we actually do need to use supplements sometimes as well. So that's both medically and, and with athletes. What's your approach to supplementation? What's your thoughts?

Well, I suppose for a long time I've taken the odd supplement things. I suppose I saw wheat grass as a supplement to kind of the, the goodness that that would Provide in a multitude of levels. And then one of the things that sort of. And then I probably have been taking Omega 3 on and off for quite a long time. But one of the things that. So one of the people I interviewed fairly early on in the podcast was a Californian guy, nutritionist called Dan Miller. And he put me onto an app, which name escapes me at the moment. But basically I was tracking everything I ate for a two week period and it looked at everything in terms of the amount of, you know, magnesium I was getting. And basically what it, what I concluded was I was, you know, I eat a very healthy diet, a lot of vegetables and a very diverse diet. And I was still, I was amazed. I was still a bit short on a few areas. And so having chatted to him about this, he basically introduced me to a kind of a fairly general supplement I take probably every other day. And the nice thing about this app was I could look at it and go, well, okay, if I added one of these tablets every other day and that kind of gap filled pretty well. So I think there is a place for it. But I remember chatting to you when we first got you on the podcast and you were kind of much more anti supplements or like only using them where necessary rather than just lobbing them at everything.

Yeah.

So what does this, what does this new paper sort of tell us?

What it pretty much tells me I'm right. I think it pretty much kind of summarizes what, what I was saying before in terms of, you know, it's not about, it's about getting the nutrients that we can from food, but that where appropriate we need, we may need to use supplements. And people, you know, classify supplements as different things as well, you know, you would, you just gave the example that of supplements being these vitamins and minerals and wheatgrass, but actually when you race, what do you use a supplement if you racing with carbohydrate gels. So there's a place for all of these things and you know, if we think about certain things, so if we think about some of the research, so it might be that, I don't know, it might be a food that, you know, that's got benefits. And you mentioned Omega 3, but maybe you don't like oily fish, which is one of our best sources of omega 3. So therefore, if you wanted to get the benefits that are conferred by taking Omega 3, maybe if you don't like oily fish, you may need to take a supplement to get to, to, to get those nutrients in. Or it could be you Know, let's take the example of racing training, like during or after training, you know, if you, if you're doing an Ironman triathlon, you know, I mean, yes, there are people that take kind of bread rolls and whatever on their bike, but you know, it's not convenient to take a whole pack lunch in your back pocket. You know, you're going to take something that is quick release, which is a carbohydrate gel or liquid form or bar or whatever it might be. But also if we take, if we take certain foods, for example, if we were looking at, I don't know, collagen, for example, if you wanted to get the benefits from taking collagen, yes, it's available in foods, it's available in red meat, for example, in particular, or in fish. But if you don't eat those foods or actually getting the amounts, if you wanted 20 grams of pure collagen and you wanted to supplement that date or you wanted to have that daily, are you going to eat enough food to be able to get that? So, and the same goes for. You've probably heard about the benefits of some of the research behind nitrates. And nitrates are really heavily present in lots of different vegetables. In particular beetroot, yes, beetroot is one of them. But to get the amount, and that's why we have very concentrated supplements of things like cherry, of things like New Zealand currants, of beetroot. That's why supplements exist, because to confer the benefits, you have to have such a large amount that, yes, you can get some in your diet. But also remember, like food is variable, isn't it, depending on where it's grown, depending on the temperatures, the climate, how long it's been stored. So it's going to vary in terms of what you get, even down to coffee. You know, the studies that have been done on caffeine, you know, we know that actually if you're going to take caffeine, the research is three to six milligrams of caffeine for every kilogram of body weight. Well, is drinking an espresso enough? Well, the answer is that espresso could change. Even if it's Starbucks, Costas, Cafe, Nero's, whatever's blend, it's never the same, it's never consistent.

And also with that, it comes back to the individual, doesn't it? Because I know personally, if I've had coffee every day for three weeks or for a week before, and that espresso probably doesn't really have that much impact if I haven't had any caffeine for two weeks and I have that espresso. It has a way bigger impact on my performance as an athlete or my ability to stay awake while I'm drinking, driving or whatever it is. So it depends on the individual, but also what that individual has been consuming previously, doesn't it? And does your. I'm assuming, I think from my agricultural background, I'm right. I'm assuming your mineral uptake would change depending on what you've had beforehand.

Well, certainly, you know, the vitamins and minerals in your diet are going to change depending on the season and where it's been growing, the soil, you know, all of those things. I mean, some of the research actually I can't remember off the top of my head without looking up. But certainly things like the effects of taking beetroot for certain very like intermittent, but like sprints, for example, on a time trial. Let's take that as an example because that's where quite a bit the research has been done. Some of the research does actually show that those athletes who are better trained don't tend to get the response the, the most benefits compared to athletes that aren't as well trained. So there's so many, there's, you know, so many different variables. But, you know, what this paper does bring together is actually there is a place for all of these different types of supplements. But do you need to use them the whole time and forget about food or, you know, should we have a very balanced approach to this and say, well, actually what do I need to take? When do I need to take it? Can I get it from food? Is it convenient? And if it isn't, if I take a supplement, most importantly, is it, is it tested? Is it batch tested? You know, from a safety point of view. And I think a lot of athletes forget about, you know, taking different supplements that in fact, in back in the 80s when we started sort of testing supplements, around 40% of nutritional supplements are found to have other substances in. And in 2016, up to 70% of supplements found to have other things in them. So not, not on the label. So, you know, contamination is, is, is pretty, is pretty high.

And that's really serious.

I mean, if that's not contamination in supplements, that's the amount of supplements we're using. So we were using, we're using 40% in 1988 and now or in 2016, up to 70% of athletes are using supplements. That's a huge amount of people using supplements. And then contamination can be up to, up to found in a Recent study up to 38%. So, you know, that's nearly 40% of supplements have got some form of contamination of something else in there that isn't on the label, which is.

Which is really worrying if you are a professional athlete. I mean, like, for somebody like me, it's highly unlikely. Unless I go and suddenly win the next ironman I do, it's pretty unlikely I'm going to get drug tested.

But that's not the case, actually. And that's what athletes think. Any, anybody, anybody can be tested at any point in time.

And I'm not saying that's a good thing, actually. And I love the fact that that's true. I didn't know that that was true. But the point is, if you're taking something. I was actually watch warn documentary on Amazon prime last night while I was on the turbo trainer and I'd forgotten, but he had a year where he was banned as a cricketer because he took a diuretic that his mum gave him and he basically wanted to lose weight, so his mum gave him a diuretic to try and get rid of some of the water and it turned out to be on the banned substance list and he had a year of being banned from the sport. So when you say that there's contamination in these products and supplements, that's. It's really alarming if you're taking your sport seriously, isn't it?

Yeah. And actually, you know, it just reminded me, like reading this paper that, you know, not only has the use of supplements increased, which we know there's far more supplements on the market, there's more research now as well. But, like 40% of supplements, like having something else in it is, you know, that's putting kind of risk there. And that's why, you know, as an athlete, we need to like, really weigh up, is it worth taking it? If there is going to be a benefit from taking it, then actually, then we need to make the decision, well, is this product tested? Do we know to the best of our knowledge that it is very unlikely to have something in it? So supplements, we need to look at batch testing and it's to a certain ISO standard that they're tested. And what you were talking about with diuretics is also part of the world anti doping, so the wider anti doping. But you can medications actually sit separately to nutritional supplements or food supplements and you can very easily check or your. Or your medical or your medicines as well. So you can use a global DRO is where you'd go to check for that. So that is really useful, actually.

And would you endorse Dan Miller's advice in that, really? Of course we all eat different diets, we all live a different lifestyle. So actually the best way, other than getting a very high quality nutritionist's advice, which of course we might be able to recommend somebody, but other than that for the sort of general consumer, is using one of these apps to try and track everything you eat for just a couple of weeks and then go, right, okay, you're low on this, this and this, this is what you might want to consider introducing through either food or through supplement. Is that kind of the best approach?

So I think there's two, there's two parts and actually I do use that a little bit with athletes. I find it useful just to track a little bit, but I don't think long term tracking is useful. So I think looking at snapshots every so often is useful. But of course, it does give a snapshot in time, doesn't it? It gives you a very estimated amount of what you might be consuming. But of course, you know, we talked about the fact that food varies so much depending on where you get it from. It's really an estimation of an estimation of where what you might be getting in. But I think what it does show is if something is consistently very low, I think that is, that's useful to know, for example, the nutrients that are very important. So things like calcium and iron, for example. Actually if you see those consistently low and there's people are having injuries or suffering with tiredness, those kind of, those are the kind of things that I would pick up on more say than the micronutrients probably. But yeah, I think there is a benefit to that. But also having someone help you interpret that rather than just kind of thinking, well, I'll just take a supplement for it, you know.

Well, and I think particularly when you say, you know what an app is not going to do is help you around. Well, okay, should you be having nitrates around a race and should you be kind of eliminating this in the lead up to a race or adding this in in the relapse or race or in recovery? That's where, you know, you're never going to get the support from an app. And that's where a nutritionist is clearly the way to go. And I, I remember the first time we spoke on the podcast, you talked about the fact that, you know, triathletes are very keen to spend, you know, like 10, 20 grand on a bike to sort of lose a minute or two. But Actually, you know, and they're looking at different gels and everything else, but, but actually the food they put into their body can have a massive impact on their performance. And yet there's a lot more reluctance to, to deal with that side of it.

Yeah, no, I totally agree. And it's, and there's a whole psychological element to that as well, isn't there? It's, it's very easy and I'm sure you see that in business as well. You know, sometimes people try to fix problems with spending money on it, which is really interesting and it might well fix something for that moment in time, but it doesn't always fix necessarily unless it's a piece of machinery or something that if once you fix, does the job again. But you know, it's, it's interesting, isn't it?

But it's. The classic example is actually in financial planning, which is of course my, my main background, you know, the number of people, particularly business owners, that spend their, you know, spend every waking hour trying to make more and more money and yet they then don't make the most of the money that they've created and they don't save tax on it and they don't get it growing well and they don't do. And so actually, yeah, it's, it's just a, they create a massive headwind for themselves. Well, this has been fascinating and I think we'll come back to talking about supplements and maybe some individual supplements more specifically in future podcasts, I think. Now let's dive into the Morgan Pearson interview. Morgan Pearson is an American professional triathlete who is seriously going places after having a disappointing individual race. He went on to win a silver medal in the mixed relay event at the Tokyo Olympics. He comes from a swimming and running background, so he's had to work really hard to master the cycling element of triathlon. But he has achieved a huge amount in a short time, including his recent lightning quick half marathon times. He's certainly an athlete to be watching in the coming years. So Claire and I wanted to chat to him about how he's improved his cycling so quickly, how he dealt with the loss of his brother in the lead up to the Olympics, his DNF at challenge, Daytona and the highs and lows of Olympics which saw him walk away with a silver medal. So I know you're going to really enjoy the interview with Morgan Pearson. So Morgan, welcome to the Tribe Athlon podcast. Thank you so much for coming on. We've got Claire here with us as well to kind of keep Me on the straight and narrow. But I'd like to kick things off with, with these interviews with telling us a bit about your story. You know, how did you end up in the world of triathlon? Where did you come from? Tell us about those early, early days and how you ended up here.

Sure. And first I should say thanks for having me. It's a pleasure. And I guess the full story starts when I was in elementary school or younger, when my mom signed me and my brothers up for swim practice. We were doing some lessons, and I actually think that we were excelling at a young age in the swim lessons. So she said, they said maybe you could do some practice. And I remember she also read some article about how swimmers do better in school or something. I can't remember so long ago what exactly it said. But there's something about, you know, some articles she read. I do remember that. So, yeah, she signed us all up for the swim team that was Berkeley Aquatic Club in New Jersey. New Jersey, United States. And basically that's kind of where I started the journeys for triathlon. If you think about it, I was swimming. I can't. I always forget if it's from third grade or from first grade. But basically I swam from first grade all the way into high school and even to senior year of high school. I was always on the Berkeley team. And I did a one one season, I swam from my high school team. And I was. There was different levels to the team, but the highest level was seniors. And below that was a junior level. So when I was. When I started high school, I was on the junior level team. And people generally move out up to the senior level between around sophomore year of high school or maybe junior year. But actually in that time I started cross country running for my high school, Del Barton. So I joined the cross country team actually in seventh grade because my older brother was also doing cross country. He did, and he was, he was two grades above me and he had done cross country and he was really good and excelled. And I, you know, I looked up to him and, you know, I was thinking, oh, maybe I could be good at that too. So I joined the cross country team. And that was kind of the second piece to the triathlon, the running. So. And actually that one came easier to me even, even more than the swimming. Like I was freshman year of high school, I made the varsity team. And then by my junior year, I was on the all state team. And I decided I wasn't gonna try to move up to the senior level of swimming. I was Just gonna stick with running and try to run in college. And let's see, I ended up some of my like high school. My better accomplishments was I won the state meet in the 3200 meters. It's a two mile bout. I won Penn Relays in the 3K, which is pretty cool. I ran in the footlocker national championship across country. So I mean I was, I was pretty. It. I would say I was probably ranked in the top 30 runners in the country. You know, nothing. I wasn't the best guy, but I was making a name for myself and good enough to go run Division 1 in college. And actually I started out at Duke University, ran there for a year for a bunch of reasons, decided I wanted to transfer and I looked at different schools and I ended up transferring to University of Colorado Boulder where I live now. And I should also mention I stuck with swimming to the senior year of high school because I just liked it. It was a fun, it was a fun way. Like I still had friends on the team. It was a nice way to just get in some extra training. Like I just enjoyed, I enjoyed it basically. And so I was still on that junior level team though. But once I started in college, I gave up swimming. I stopped. Yeah, my coach, I didn't even like, you know, you ramp up your mileage in college. You go from running like 40, 50, 60 miles a week maybe in high school to like over a hundred miles a week in college, or at least that's what I do. So I never even felt like I needed to be doing extra training. I was running a lot and that was kind of it on the swimming I got just was all in on the running. Went to University of Colorado. We had some, some really good team success there. We were national champs twice in cross country as a team. Personally I was, I got All American a bunch of times. My PRs were 1336 for the 5k and 751 for a 3k in college. So pretty, pretty solid again. Like, again, kind of. I wasn't necessarily the best in the country by any means, but I was definitely maybe like top 10 top 10 runners in the NCAA. I don't know, it depends how you count it. Top 10, top 20.

And then the collegiate. Just talk to me a little bit about the collegiate running in the US Because I have a few chapters into Running with the Buffaloes, which is all about. It's a great book so far and I've heard amazing things about it. But it strikes me that the collegiate running in the US is a Far more serious thing than we have in the uk, as far as I'm aware. So tell me a little bit about that scene for those. For those Brits that don't really understand it.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, running with the Buffaloes is. That's where I went to school. So it's kind of funny that you're reading that. And I actually read that right before I took my visit because I thought it'd give me a good grasp of kind of what to expect.

Excellent.

But, yeah, I mean, NCAA running is, you know, it's an NCAA sport. There's scholarships. You can earn most if you're a fully funded program. I want to say you get 12 and a half scholarships per school. I mean, that's on the track team. So some schools give it more to sprinters, some more to distance runners, some more to throwers, but Colorado was heavy on the distance running, so we really. And our emphasis was actually cross country, so. And so in the fall, we had the cross country season, and the winter, there's indoor track. And so each one of these seasons there's an NCAA meet. And that's kind of how you become a national champion. So cross country indoors and outdoors, and then summer, we don't race. But actually, Colorado, I would spend most summers out here training with the team, just preparing because like I said, cross country was our big. That was our big focus being that we could maybe go win a national title. So there's probably a couple hundred NCLA programs, and 30 make the national meet in cross country. And then, yeah, I mean, I would say it's. It's one of the most competitive meets in the world, at least cross country wise, especially depth. Like, let's see, my team is. When we won, I think we had seven guys breaking 14 minutes in the 5K, just to give you an idea, maybe. Maybe six, maybe seven. So that just kind of gives you the idea of like, some of the depth that you need to like, kind of win these titles. I mean, we're all, you know, we were all what, 18 to 20, 21, 22. So we're, you know, we're not. I wouldn't say we are, like, peaking either, in terms of age peaking. So, yeah, I mean, it's pretty deep. It's a pretty deep race, and I think it's only gotten better in the last couple of years. Some of these. Some of these college runners are running really fast right now, so.

Well, and you're not doing too badly yourself at the moment in these half marathons, but we'll come Back to that. So how did you. What made you switch? Given that you were, you know, maybe top 30 in the country, what made you switch to triathlon?

Yeah, so actually what happened was I graduated college in 2016, and in my mind, I actually had underperformed at the college level. My training was going super well. You know, my workouts were all really strong and like, I was feeling. I was always feeling way better. Like, easiest way to say is maybe I was a workout hero and a training hero and. But I don't think it's. Cause I was going like too hard and practice and like, I didn't have anything left for the race. I just think actually it was mental and between the ears, I would get to the race and I would psych myself out, and I think it was a mental block more than anything. So I actually told myself I want to give myself a year to try to make it as a runner. You know, I got. I got. So graduating college, I took. I took some time off. I went home to New Jersey. I was working as a lifeguard at the beach, which also kind of. I'll get back to that a little, because that actually maybe led to me becoming a triathlete. But so I took some good time off. But then back in the fall, I started training hard again back in Colorado. I picked up some odd jobs, you know, just to make some money tutoring. I was a math major, so I was tutoring math and doing some. I actually was a swim instructor at the ymca, which, you know, allowed me to get into the pool and also gave me like a free gym membership. So that was like something else I did. You know, I was just making money, but I actually started running really well and I was able to actually get a sponsor for running. Just. So I graduated in the spring of 2016, and then starting 2017, I was a sponsored runner. And so that was kind of my dream, you know, coming out of college, I actually accomplished it and I was. I was really happy with that. But if I'm being honest, when I was. When I was just working these. These odd jobs and kind of just getting by financially and just. It was tough and I was training really hard. But in that time, I actually reached out to USA Triathlon because it was like, I'd heard like about these at least runners that were becoming triathletes, that I was like, I'm a better runner than them. And like, I used to swim. And then I should add, when I was home over the summer working out this lifeguard, I was swimming a little bit with my little brothers who were college swimmers. So I just, you know, I was kind of getting back into it just for fun. And. Yeah, so I reached out to them that. That fall 20. Fall of 2016. No. Yeah, yeah. Fall of 2016, I reached out to USA Triathlon. I was just like, hey, I'm a runner. I, like, I'm trying to make it work as a runner now, but it's pretty tough. It's not easy. Like, I swam these times in high school, and honestly, I thought my swim times weren't good enough to be a competitive triathlete based off what they had kind of put on their website. But I figured, you know, I could reach out and see what happens. And actually, they got back to me and they're really excited. At least it seemed like that to me. Hey. They said, hey, like, we think you could be pretty good, but, you know, it's all happening at the same time that I start running a bit better and get a sponsorship. So it's like now I'm being pulled in two different directions a bit. And so it took some recruiting on their standpoint. And I should also mention I picked up an injury in the spring.

So.

I wasn't like, I kind of had some time off running, and it led me to swim more. And then also they had sent me a bike, so I was getting in a bike. And it was a little bit of recruiting and a little bit of. I realized I enjoyed biking and I, like, I still like swimming. And it was just. It was kind of a mix of things. And like, you know, like, let's be honest, I'm. I'm standing 6ft tall and, you know, if I'm super at my lightest. When I was a runner, maybe I was 150 pounds. Like, you know, I'm not saying you can't run well like that, but if you're trying to be the best runner in the world, like, and run 12, you know, 12, 50 and a 5K, those guys are. They just don't look like me. I'm just a bigger guy compared to them. And I think I realized that. That. And, you know, so basically it came down and I kind of asked myself, like, do I want to be one of. Do I want to try to be one of the best runners in the country, or do I want to be one of the. Try to be one of the best triathletes in the world? And that's kind of the ultimate question I asked myself. And for me, being one of the best in the world at Something that I was more attracted to that. So.

And you've. You've achieved incredible success in a really short time, haven't you? I mean, you've come in and. I mean, do you just want to give us a. We'll come back to things, like, we'll come back to the Olympics in a minute, but talk us through how you think, because if you've come into it without really any cycling background, you've got the historical swim background, you're already a good runner hitting good run form, but clearly, you know, the biking is the longest part of it. How have you. How do you think you've kind of springboarded up to such success so quickly?

I mean, there's a lot of ways to answer that question. I think, you know, I've worked really hard is the kind of the easiest answer. But I think kind of even beyond that, or when you break it down, is. I think one thing I do give myself credit for is, you know, I don't think I was ever really scared to fail, not just in the races, but in training. And I think I really, you know, I really did look to the best guys, and not even the best triathlete cyclists, just the best cyclists that I could find. The best. You know, not just. You know, not just triathletes, not the best guys in the U.S. the best cyclists, period. Um, and that's what, you know, I really tried to surround myself with these guys because I knew, like you said, that was something new to me, and it's my weakness. And, like, I could. I could. You know, I could do my intervals and go to the races and maybe feel like I'm progressing and feel good about myself, or I could challenge myself in ways that maybe I'm setting myself up to fail. But I think in the long run, it's really helped me. I mean, some of the. Like, some of my biggest breakthroughs on the bike have come from, you know, really challenging myself and being in positions that, you know, I did fail. Like, you know, there's a. There's some. There's a group ride in Boulder that. It's called the Stages Ride. And I was doing it for the first couple months. I did it. You know, I basically got dropped every day, and, you know, I got dropped, and, like, I don't think it was necessarily, like, a fitness aspect of power, but these. You know, some of the routes, it's. For some reason, there's always these, like, crazy crosswinds, and, you know, there's just, like, really strong. There's other really Strong guys and they're just attacking. And, you know, I. And I still get dropped to this day doing that ride sometimes. But I remember after a few months, I just kept, you know, I kept trying to learn, kept trying to get better. And, like, I remember this one day I made it to, like, the final little group of, like, four of us, and I was like, whoa, like, I've really improved. Um, and just stuff like that. I mean, I remember doing. I did this bike race in 2019, which was, you know, that was my second year training, like, training as a pro triathlete. It's just a gravel race in Boulder. And I actually was like, I got destroyed. Like, I went into it actually a little bit cocky because my trip, because I had been doing these intervals of. And my power was just, like, had really improved actually that winter. So I was like, wow, I'm in good shape. Like, I'm so much stronger than I used to be. Like, this is going to be great. And I basically got smashed. Like, I was like, I was just. Like, I had no idea what I was doing. Like, I was like, looking back and like, I mean, it's been a few years, so it's hard to recount the race perfectly, but I just, like, some of the decisions I made was so dumb. And I ended up getting dropped pretty early. And then there was a big climb, and I kind of came back. But then as soon as we, like, you know, those guys were just chilling up the climb and, you know, it was just. It was a. It was just a really big, like, learning curve. And then fast forward to this. A few weeks ago, I did the same race, and I went into it different mindset. I was like, I'm so nervous. I'm like, I'm going to get. Like, I might get destroyed if I don't have, like, you know, I got to be really smart and really relax and be really tactically savvy. Because, like, I know and, like, I know I've improved a lot, but I also. I also think I have a huge amount to gain from that standpoint. And I actually ended up doing really well. Like, I improved a ton, and I was just so much better in the race. And it's just like, that was a good feeling to know. Like, okay, like, I still have the same. I'm getting more nervous, but I'm actually way better. Uh, so just stuff like that. I mean, I worked with a bike coach who's helping me with, like, skills like cornering, and basically he's a professional crit rider or kind of a retired one. And for a few. Like, for almost two years, we were meeting every week. Well, on average, maybe once, like, twice a month. Cause when I travel the race, I didn't meet him. And then the off season, I didn't meet him, but I definitely met him a ton. And we're just doing, like, you know, it started out he's just. Show me. This is how you corner. This is like, your bike. Because, like, you think sometimes you take these things for granted and people give you tips, but it doesn't really help. This guy, like, broke it down for me as if I was a, you know, a kid. Like, hey, this is how you do it. Boom, boom, boom. And, like, we really worked on stuff. We would get on the gravel bikes, get on the cyclocross bikes. He would always be teaching me things. And it just progressed. It progressed. And then, you know, by the end, we're just like, basically ripping laps around a crit circuit and trying to drop each other. And it's just. It's just like he's like. Like, you don't realize how much you improve when you do stuff like that.

So has gravel biking. It was we using gravel biking specifically because it was. It was kind of accelerating your learning with the bike handling.

Yeah, for sure, for sure. Like, that's. Yeah. I mean, there's no secret. Some of these top road cyclists in the world are coming from the cyclocross background. And I think, like, yes, that has. There are a lot of. They're really powerful guys and all that stuff, but a lot of it has to do with the handling and the, um, that sort of thing. So that is something I use. Um. But yeah, I mean, I've worked really hard at it. I've. I bike a lot. Uh, I put in a lot of hours. And this. This might sound silly, but I might. I mean, I still do intervals. Like, it's not just group rides and whatever. And I've actually. I've realized that when I do the intervals on the bike trainer indoors, I tend to get a lot more out of it. Like, I'm. I'm feel stronger. Uh, like, for. For me, I could go to a hill and probably put out more power and feel a lot better about myself when I look at the numbers. But it kind of comes back to that. Like. Like, don't be afraid to fail. Like, the first couple of times I was doing these. The first couple of times I was doing the intervals on the trainer, it was. Cause there was like, snow or it's, like, really cold. Like, it is right now. But then I realized I was really improving and my numbers were getting closer and closer to what I would hit on the hill. And then, like, I remember I went out one day because it was a nice day and races and there was a race coming up. So I did want to get outside and practice, you know, riding outside. And I was like, holy smokes. I feel like amazingly strong. So that's just, I mean, that's just something I've incorporated. I think that's, you know, I don't know if that's in my head or there's something physiological or it's mental making me mentally tougher or whatever it is. Like, that's also something that's helped. So. But it kind of just comes back to that, like, don't be afraid to fail. Like, like if you only ever set yourself up to succeed and have it like these great conditions in the workout and it to be perfect, like, it's not like, then you get to the race and the, you know, race conditions are never, I mean, almost never ideal and perfect, you know, um, unless it's some perfect time trial that someone's setting up. But, you know, as triathletes, we don't really do that. We're racers. We're not, we're not time travelists. So. Yeah, I think that's really helped.

I think it's great advice. I mean, I was, I was always. I can't remember who I've heard it say, say it. But fail is. Stands for first attempt in learning, doesn't it? So, you know, yeah, if you, if you, if you set yourself up to fail, then you will learn.

Yeah. But also just remembering, like, if you're like, if you do fail, like, don't get it done. Like it's training, you know, like you're failing a race. You can move on. Like, you can take it and you know, I've had bad races and gone down, but if you get destroyed in a, in a workout, like, you gotta be able to just put it behind you and move on to the next one. Because especially for triathletes, we're training a ton. You know, there's another work. You know, I didn't have my best swim today, but like, whatever, I'm moving on from it and I'm going to hopefully have a good run workout this afternoon.

Well, there's good experiences and learning experiences, isn't there? So as long as you look back at those fails and go right, what then? Then you can take take a lot from it. I want to Talk about the Olympics because, like, it must have been amazing qualifying for Olympics so early in your triathlon career. So talk to me a little bit about that, but then talk to me about the actual experience of the Olympics, particularly the difference between the. The individual event and the relay event.

Yeah. So just qualifying. I mean, to be honest, that was a goal I set for myself when I did start. And, you know, that's. It might have been ambitious, and who knows, maybe having that extra year with COVID really did help me, but I liked. And there was times where I thought I wasn't going to accomplish it. So I don't really know if that answers your question, but basically, that was always my goal. And kind of for better or for worse, that's kind of what I thought about most days when I was training and getting it done. Like, I want to go to the Olympics, and I want to do well and make it there. And I think there is, like, a mental toll that you pay when that's. When you have such a specific goal. And just like. So, like, you know, it's just one thing, but it definitely, definitely was what I was working towards. But then, yeah. So just the Olympics themselves, I mean, we're lucky enough that we had two races, the individual and the relay. And, I mean, us was able to qualify a relay, which was really, really cool. And, you know, the individual race was. To be honest, it wasn't my day. You know, I came in, you know, I was training towards it with big hopes. I actually thought I was in really good shape about a month before the event, or even three weeks, you know, I did. I did my first two races of the season was WTS Yokohama in Leeds, where I qualified, and then I qualified in Yokohama, and then I was able to get a silver in leads. And, you know, I actually thought I was. I was really improving from that. And maybe that was kind of where the downfall happened, was instead of just being patient and relaxed and getting through training and resting, I was really trying to force it a little bit. And I think I burnt. I burnt it a little too much. I was trying to do a little bit too much heat training maybe. Maybe too much. I was trying to fit too much in. You know, as being a triathlete, you know, there's so much to work on. You know, you want to work on your speed, your strength for all three events. And then you want to get in these bricks. The swim bike brick, the run bike brick. You want to practice transitions. You want to. Like, there's just so much to do. I Mean, and you know, I can learn a lot from that and I could talk about that if you want me to, but.

Well, I suppose, I suppose the way I would ask about that is if we, if you were going into the next Olympics at the moment, what would you do differently to how you prepared for the last one?

Yeah, I mean, I just think it comes down to just trust in myself and belief in myself. Like, I want to say I felt a little bit like, you know, still felt like. I don't know why, because I did, I did well and these and I qualified like, and I deserve, you know, I deserve to be there. But maybe part of me was thinking like, you're still so new, you still can. Like the rate of improvement is like higher, so you can, you know, increase. So I mean, and then it was also, everyone remembers they were talking about hot. It was going to be. So one thing I did was I built this like heat chamber with a treadmill and a bike trainer and stuff. And I honestly just wish I didn't do that because I think every time I ran on that or biked in there, like, sure, I probably got some heat up adaptation, but it really took a lot out of me. I, I wish I just rested more. Like I got a lot. I had a lot of. I had some other stuff going on with like, you know, like a podcast and interviews and stuff like that that I wasn't necessarily, you know, I do a podcast every so often and you know, it's my pleasure to do it today. It's not really, I don't have to change my training around and it's just one, you know, but when you have them multiple times a week and other stuff, it, like it starts to play a toll on your training and then you're trying to catch up or whatever, maybe not getting this enough sleep and like I do think that little stuff, you know, and it never really feels like, you know, doing, doing one thing is never really. It's not, you know, it's not. That's not going to make a big effect. But you let it all add up and then all of a sudden that time you're gonna re that like five or six hours during the week where you, you normally just be chilling, resting, maybe trying to nap, whatever, like play video games, read, watch a movie, like you're doing stuff and, and then you have to plan around it and it just like. So I honestly wish, I just like, I know it's kind of silly and maybe even selfish, but I just wish I said no to everything and Just was like, no, like, don't bother me. I'm training. Whatever. Yeah, like, I guess that's.

That's part of, like, the things that you have never really trained for as well, isn't it? You know, you talked about training right from. Right from school age in terms of swimming, and. And then suddenly you get to this place where, amazingly, you're going to the Olympics, and then you haven't trained to, like, deal with all those kind of outside. Those outside factors and with some of that kind of looking after, you know, the sponsorship side of things. Because I think that's something as kind of age group triathletes or people that are kind of running for fun or suing for fun. We don't always appreciate, like, all the other stuff that you guys have to do outside of, like, commitments to sponsors and things outside of your training. Because it can become quite hectic, can't it?

Yeah. Like, I did do a big filming with my bike sponsor at the time, which it was a lot, like, to be honest. Like, and again, like, they made a really nice video. And like, it's not like I totally regret doing it, but, like, it's just. It just like, it adds up. And I do think, like, Claire's. That's a great point. I mean, I'm pretty. I know as a, as an Olympic distance triathlete, the Olympics is. That's when people are going to care about our sport the most. Going into the Olympics, you know, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if I go and win a world title next year or this year. I guess, like, people are still going to care more about the Olympics. Like, it's just. It's just the way it is. And I honestly like that. Like, I think it's really cool. But, um. And I kind of realized that and I did let it stress me out in the sense of, like, I was like, oh, like, I'm not going to be, you know, I can't think of a better word. But there's not going to be a hotter time for me as an athlete. You know, sponsors are going to be interested. And like, I was like, I think it stressed me out, like, because maybe I wasn't getting the sponsors I thought I deserved. And so looking back, it's just like, same thing. I almost wish I was just like. Just like, chose to not let it bother me. I mean, I'm not saying if I get a really good opportunity didn't arise, I wouldn't, I wouldn't take it. But at the end of the Day. Like, if I had gone to the Olympics and done well, like, it would have been life changing in that sense. So I wish I had that, you know, that foresight of just like, don't let it bother me. And I'm just, you know, it's. I've made some changes with some. Some stuff. So I'm really working towards it and working on this stuff and trying to like, you know, the stuff outside of the training is almost just as a big effect on your racing as the actual training itself. So I think that's kind of what it comes down to.

I've done a few podcasts. It themed around this whole kind of the social media aspect of.

Yeah.

Of the truck of the professional triathlete. Because I don't think, I mean, certainly I didn't realize it until I started diving into the detail in the podcasts. You know, it's like running a business, isn't it? You know, Claire and I are trying to, you know, deal with social media through our businesses. You guys have exactly the same thing. It's amazing. And of course, every time you say yes to something, you're saying no to 10 other things, whether that be the nap, the rest.

Yeah. Or just like going like, Claire might appreciate this. Like, I remember, like, just. I never had enough food at home because I was always bit. You know, I would take that out and go to the grocery store and stock up and like, I was just eating out. Like, I don't think I was eating as healthy as I should have. And like, you know, that's. That has a role. So. Yeah, you're absolutely right. You're absolutely right.

So at the Olympics, you didn't have the individual race that you wanted to. We'll come back to. I think you were ill in the lead up to that. Well, maybe come back to that in a. In a minute. But you then had the team event, which when I heard you talk about it, it felt like you went into that with a totally different mindset. Talk to me about the difference between the individual event and the team event. And, you know, tell us about the outcome of the team event too.

Yeah, like, so going, like you mentioned, I did get a little bit sick right before, and I think that has more to do with what I'm talking about now, with all that extra stress. Stress. And I think it just. I think my body just like gave up on me a little because I just wasn't handling it well and I got sick and I, you know, I was basically trying, going into the individual. I was basically trying to fool myself into saying, you're ready, you're ready, you're ready, who cares? You got sick. Like, it's actually good. You got extra rest. You play the mind games. And then so, like, my mindset was like, I don't know, like, it wasn't negative, but it was just like trying to fool myself into believing in myself. And it didn't work. But yeah, there's. For the relay, it was a little bit different because maybe it lost a bit of confidence and it was. But I also knew, like, we're a team and I can't let my teammates down. Like, this is, this is, this isn't just about like, like something, you know, the individual Olympics wasn't just about me, but also, like, this is really not just about me. This is, you know, there's three other athletes that worked really hard to be here. And also, like, they put me, I mean, I was an anchor leg and they put me in a great position. So I think it was more like, I want to say maybe a bit more business, like, going into that one. Just I have to get it done and, you know, I'm gonna, I'm gonna do what I can no matter what. And yeah, so we actually ended up getting second there. It was, it was a relay and I was an anchor and Great Britain won. They. They got the, they got.

I wasn't going to mention that, but seeing as you brought it up, yeah.

They were a bit in front of us and then France was a bit behind us and we basically, it was like a three person duel. You know, obviously Great Britain had a lead, so get that little buffer. And then I had a little buffer in France, but yeah, I mean, in the end it was Great Britain and then I got the. Well, Team USA got the silver and France got the bronze. And. Yeah.

Did it mean as much to you coming back with a silver medal from the team event as it would have done for the individual event?

Like, to be completely honest, probably not. Like, like, I know that's kind of messed up to say, like, and like, I'm so happy we won as a silver as a team, but like, as an individual, I think you just, that can be career, like, obviously getting a silver medal as a, as a team, like, that's life changing. You know, I have that for the rest of my life and you know, in 30, 40, 50 years, whatever, like, I'll be able to say I got that. But just like, for where I am, I'm at in my career, I think it's, it would have been pretty like, life changing to get individual medal. Just like, like, just to be. Like, I'm just being honest, but, like, I'm not. Like, I, you know, it doesn't matter anymore. Like, I'm not like, I. And I also think, like, I did a really good job of separating those two races in my mind. Like, it wasn't like I had. Like, I can, I can think about the Olympics and be really happy about how I did and proud about how I did in the relay and just be happy for my teammates and for myself even. But I can also feel upset and frustrated and sad about how I did in the individual. It's not, it's not necessarily just one feeling I have. You know, it's a mix. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that. You know, it was two races and they were completely different. So I wasn't, like, I wasn't, you know, I didn't leave. You know, I let. Obviously I left and I was, you know, I couldn't be. It was a great feat. Like, I would much rather have the silver medal than nothing. Like. But like, there was still part of me that just felt like, you know, I let, I let people down or I let myself down. That's. And that still exists in me, you know, like, it's not like, you know, I still. And I'm really frustrated with how that race went. It's not like I'm not like, over it by any means.

So with, with the, with the illness that you had in the lead up to it. I've heard you talk before about how you had illnesses after races, and this time it seemed to come before the race, the big race. Do you think that that is, you know, I know I've got. I did the London Marathon last year. I didn't get ill for doing, you know, all year. I did Iron Man Talon, didn't get ill, did the London Marathon last event of the year, and then suddenly had two weeks of illness. Do you find that you have those sort of post event illnesses? And do you think that what happened with the Olympics was something similar to that but at the wrong time, or do you think it was totally unrelated?

I mean, I don't, I feel like I don't get that sick. Like, I don't think. I'm not getting sick after races that often. I think what takes more out of me is actually the travel. So, you know, we'll go to.

You.

Know, crazy places sometimes to race. You know, Kazakhstan or, you know, Chengdu, China, and like coming, you know, maybe a Travel after that is, I mean, even yesterday I was in Arizona for a month or, excuse me, a week. And then yesterday my flight got delayed four hours and like, even this morning, like I said, I didn't feel really, I felt kind of bad swimming. And I think it's more to do with the travel than anything like that. I do think the travel does take a lot out of me. So I don't, I don't think I really get sick after races necessarily. I will say, like, there has been times in my life where I'm, I do have kind of an end goal and I get, and I get to it and then my body does kind of shut down a little. I'm thinking more in school I would have finals and then like I would, like I would study a bunch and obviously I'm still running and training and then, you know, school is important to me so I put a lot of into it. And then as soon as I'd finished that final, I might, I remember one day, like I remember to have it multiple times, but I'd, I would just feel like crap for the next 24 hours. And it's like if it felt like sickness, but I don't know, was it sickness? I don't know. I'm not a, I'm not a doctor, I'm not a scientist, but yeah, I mean it's, it's. I think the human body is like pretty, you know, it can put up a good fight. So maybe it, maybe it was battling something, but it let me get through that final or it let me get through the travel through like back from China or whatever it was because, you know, it would really suck to be sick on a, on a 14 hour flight. But then as soon as I do get home it's like, all right, I'm shutting you down for a few days here to recover. So yeah, I mean it's a mix.

Of things I think in those environmental conditions as well, you know, that's. Although you were training, you know, using your heat, training at home and things, it's just totally different, isn't it? And there's so many other stressors in terms of, you know, environment different. Like I know there were situations certainly with the UK based hotels in terms of food and travel and you know, coming. It was different with COVID having to kind of come from outside hotels, kind of on site and things. Yeah, just so many, so many layers to it, I think.

Yeah. I mean, I remember like my college coaches, they would say like, you don't get sick from like being Worn down, but it makes you more susceptible to being sick. So, like, if you run a marathon, your body's destroyed, you know, and you're also probably around a bunch of people and stuff, so maybe there's more sickness in the air and then like, your immune system is a little bit compromised. Being so tired.

Yeah, no, and I think, I think so. I certainly find, you know, I think the classic example is people get ill on their honeymoon, don't they? Because they've built up. Built up, Built up to this big wedding.

Yeah.

And it's whether it's the finals, whether it's your race of the year, whatever it is. And then it's like the body just says, goes right, we're through it. I can let the, Let the sort of. The guards down. And you are more susceptible. But was the. I know, I know this might be a difficult subject to talk about, but I know you lost your, Your older brother last year in the, in the lead up to Olympics. How, how do you think that that impacted your. Your preparation for the. For. For your racing out there?

You know, I've talked to my mom a lot about this. A lot. Because she know, you know, she knows, you know, I mean, she's. She's the mother of my brother, but basically she kind of knows, like, that I got sick and run down and stuff. And like, I mean, to be honest, I don't. I don't have a great answer, but I will say, and this is what she says, all that stress that I was talking about, all the extra, the training, the dumb. Maybe you did the extra training that I shouldn't have been doing, heat chamber stuff and whatever. And then like all the other, you know, sponsorship stuff and podcasts. And also, like, thinking back, I was actually moving too, which was really stupid, but I just had no choice. But I. I think there was a layer of, you know, underneath that all is just like another. An extra layer of, you know, still, like, mourning that loss. Just emotional energy just spent on that, you know, every day that. And it's just there every day. And maybe, you know, obviously I'm thinking about it every day, but maybe I'm not doing anything about it every day. Maybe I'm not, like, even talking about it every day, but it's still there and you still deal with it. And I just think maybe, like, it's almost like we were talking about with, you know, running that marathon where you get a little bit more worn down and that's when you pick up the illness, that emotional energy. Maybe, maybe my, My, My System was just like, that much more worn down just from dealing with that.

Did it also. Did it also give you strength at times on the. In races? You know, is that something that you kind of think about when you're racing?

No, it really. I don't think about that when I race. I will say, like, so my brother passed away on March 1 last year. So it's been about a year almost. And I basically took. You know, I basically took a month off. I. I would say, like, two weeks completely off of training. You know, I went home for. And I was home for almost a month, and for two weeks, I basically just, like, did nothing. And then I started, like, you know, going for, like, bike rides. Just kind of, like, get outside and runs. And then even that last week, home, I was able to get into the pool. Uh, if you recall, Covid was still pretty. The lockdown was pretty strong back then, so it wasn't as easy to get into a pool changing states, but. So that last week was the first time I could get into the pool.

But.

Yeah, but I will say, you know, I had about. I want to say I had six weeks from the time that I got back to Colorado and then to Yokohama to train. And, you know, I was. You know, I don't want to say my brother, you know, who knows? But I would say, like, I was super locked in, you know, and part of that was like, you know, I really wanted to do that for my family to qualify. You know, it was like a. It was. You know, I wanted to do it for myself, too. You know, it had been my goal since I was a kid, but, you know, it was just such a rough time for my family. And I was like, in the back of my head, I'm like, if I can qualify for the Olympics, like, yeah, it's not changing anything. You know, he's still gone, but that's, like, that's. That's gonna be a cool moment, a cool thing for my family. And, like, you know, they. They deserve something like that. Like, they deserve something good to happen, and, you know, we deserve something good to happen. So that was really. I was really locked in. Every. You know, I would say, like, there's times where I'm maybe not, you know, excited to go to swim practice when it's, you know, I swim outside all year long, and it'll be 17 degrees Celsius or whatever, negative 5 Fahrenheit, whatever it is. And it's snowing, and maybe there's days where I'm not excited to get in the Pool. But I just remember in that. That month or that six weeks or whatever it was, I was just. Like. It never even crossed my mind. I was just like, boom, get in the pool. Like, this is what I'm doing. This is what matters right now. And, like, it was just. I don't want to say it was easy to, like, to do, like, but I just remember I never had those. Like, I was like, I don't. It wasn't even, like, a motivation. Like, it wasn't like, I was, like, super. Because I wasn't, like, going in, like, crushing every workout, like, really pushing myself harder than I've ever pushed. It was just, like, business. Like, I don't know how else to describe. It's just like, this is my job, and, like, I'm gonna do it and just like, boom, do it. Go swim. Like, go get my running, whatever. Like, boom, boom, boom, boom. And I just was like, I was just doing that every day.

Was it also a way of kind of pushing back some of the emotions.

Just to say, yeah, for sure. Yeah. No, I mean, for sure. It for sure was. I mean, I. I was speaking with a, you know, grief counselor at the time, like, once or twice a week. So it wasn't necessarily, like, I was, like, trying to push the emotions away. Like, I wasn't. I knew I had to deal with it. I mean, I. My coach was like, you need to go home. When that first happened. Like, my coach was like, you need to go home and, like. And deal with it, because, like, if you don't. I mean, I was gonna go home regardless. But you basically said, go home and take as long as you need, because if. And it was really great advice because he's like, if you don't. If you don't deal with the emotions now, like, that's gonna haunt you, you know, in three months or whatever, you know, or even six months or two years or whatever it is. So, like, that month home is really important. And then, I mean, I would say, yeah, like, I probably was, but I wasn't. It wasn't like, I was like. Like, I was trying to deal with them. You know, I was. I was seeing the grief counselor and. But I also. It's just, like. It's just hard because, you know, you work. You work for something your whole life, you know? Okay. I guess I only started doing Pro Triathlon in 2018. You know, maybe I. It doesn't seem like I've been doing it that long, but, you know, I grew up swimming, and, like, I'm swimming practice every Day after school. And like, you know, when I was in high school, you know, I'm going from running practice, you know, I always go from running practice system practice, like every day, you know, like, that's like, I run from like 3 to 4, 3 to 4:30, whatever it is, track practice. And then I swim from like 5 to 6:30. Like, that's my day, you know. So like most, most high schoolers aren't doing that. And like, so I like, knew and I like. And I knew that about myself and I loved it, you know, I enjoyed it. And like, I think that's what has helped me get to the level I'm at. But like, in my mind, like, this is, you know, maybe not being a triathlete in the Olympics, but like being like at that super high level. Whether it was swimming growing up or running in high school and college, like, that was always my goal. And like, I. It was just so close that like, I had to, you know, I had to go, you know, and I knew I was in good shape. Like before I have with my brother. Like, I knew I had, you know, my 2020 was like, I basically raced once in Hamburg because of COVID There was like almost no racing. But like, I knew that race. Like, it was just like I was the second. I was the first guy not to make the lead pack on the bike. And then I was the second fastest run split by like three seconds or two seconds behind Alex Y. I ended up eighth because I had a shit. You know, I had an awful transition and. But like, I was like, I know I'm in shape that I can do this. And like, I've only gotten better since then. Like, I can win. In my mind, like, I was gonna go win Yokohama. Like, that was my goal. Like, not just to qualify. Like, I was like, I'm gonna go win this thing and I can do it.

I mean, your running has come on again at amazing levels, isn't it? Tell me a little bit about what I think you do for fun, as your coach describes it, which is your half marathon times. Tell us a little bit about the times that you've been knocking out and. And what, why you're doing them for fun.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, I. So I did my. So I've run races a bit. Like, so 2018 was my first year in triathlon as a pro. And like, I don't think I did any running races. Maybe one cross country race at the end of the year. But I just love running and it's like, it's a Bit like, you know, I say, like, triathlon's my job, but running is, like my hobby, and running races in my hobby. So. So 2019, I actually ran. I ran an indoor 3K up at CU Boulder, and I ran, like, I want to say like 807. And I remember, like, I was like, how did I do that? Because my. My training, I was so heavy into the bike training and the swim training, and I was. I wasn't running very much, and the workouts were like. I was just like, how did I do that? So I was like, wow. Like, I'm. I'm like, if I put a little effort into it, maybe I could do well. So then end of the year, I go in around the US Club cross country champs, and I actually won the race. Uh, and the guy, you know, these guys are good. You know, maybe not like the highest. You know, it might not have the depth of some of the highest level races, but the guy that I beat was Olympics. He went to the Olympics in the steeplechase twice, you know, 2020 and then 2016. So, like, it's a legit. It was a legit win. And so, like, yeah, I've just, like, had that race. And then. So that was 2019, and then 2020, I was doing the triathlon stuff, and I thought I was gonna try to go to, you know, try to qualify for the Olympics, but then obviously that got postponed. But what happened was I did that Hamburg race that I mentioned a few minutes ago, and then I went and did a World cup in Czech Republic, but I actually had a crash and I hurt my. You know, I crashed out. You can count that as a race. But I only got, like, Kane to the bike. Totally my fault. Um, but just, you know, not the worst crash in the world. But I didn't finish. But my shoulder was, like, pretty messed up. So there. There. There was some world triathlon races going on, but I couldn't really swim much. Like, I could swim a little. I was a little. But it was like, I would, like, kick most days in the pool. And so just like, randomly, this half marathon popped up that Hanson Brooks was putting on out in Michigan. And it was like a Wednesday. So it was like, you know, it was like a week before I, like, heard about it, and I just said, I just, like, call my coach. I'm like, hey, I. You know, I'm. I've been training hard all summer. I just did that Hamburg race. I think the race is, like, late October. I was like, I'm still like, my, you know, I'M I want to race. Like, I love racing. And he. So he was cool with it. Um, so I went and did that one. I ran 60, so that was just a week before I signed up. Uh, and I. So I did one kind of, like, key workout, see where maybe I could run, and that went well. And I went and I got. I got. I actually got the win for some. Some pro runner, like, fully sponsored, you know, fully. You know, no job, pro runners. One guy was actually going to the Olympics for the marathon, Jake Riley. So he was in the race, and I beat him. And I'm like. I ran 62, 18, and I'm like, whoa, that was pretty. That was pretty fun. I mean, like, winning a race is, like, really fun. It doesn't matter what it is. Like, it doesn't matter if it's your local Turkey Trot. Um, Although I'm sure, like, winning, like, the Olympics would be the most fun.

But anyways, we'll see that at some point, I'm sure.

Yeah, like, that was. That was a lot of fun. And I just was. I really liked the distance. You know, I liked. I mean, it's your first race and you win that distance and you're like, you. You just like it. And then. Yeah, so we fast. So that was 2020, and then obviously 2021. Olympics, triathlon most of the year. But I just saw on the calendar the US half marathon champs was happening in. Was it December 5th or something? So I was like, oh, that's great. Like, I'll hopefully have some sort of fitness from triathlon, and then there's no triathlon. I'm not, like. I'm not really, like, sacrificing doing triathlon races because it's December 5th, you know, there's nothing after that. I can. I would normally take it pretty chill around Christmas anyways, just going home to see my family. And so I just, you know, I asked my coach and, like, yeah, like, I did. I did. My training wasn't going amazing, but I went and did pretty well. Like, I got eighth, so maybe not as high as I wanted to finish, But I ran 61, 47, something like that. So, yeah, it was a lot of fun. I mean, I. It was a lot harder. I kind of blew up a little bit the last two miles, so it's a lot harder than the first one I did. But, yeah, I mean, I still got a pr. And I was around some really. You know, everyone I lost to you is like a. You know, I have a lot. It's not like I lost Anyone who I'm like embarrassed to lose to, obviously you want to win, but with those.

Sorts of times, that's got to be, you know, the other triathletes must be looking at, thinking we need to, we need to watch this guy. Because that's going to scare a lot of people, isn't it? You know, with, with that half marathon distance, it leads me on to ask if you're going to be kind of ending up in 70.3 or even the long course. But I know there was a bit of an incident around Daytona, wasn't there? So tell me, tell me a little bit about Daytona, whether you plan to go for longer courses in the.

Yeah, so I'll just say like Daytona was also for those who remember. I mean it happens every year. But that was 2020, the COVID year. And almost like I said, I raced in Hamburg and that was about it. And you know, they came out with this hundred thousand dollar prize purse, whatever, million dollar prize purse, whatever it was like, and I'm just like, yeah, like I would love to make a lot of money. Like, so I kind of, I use that half marathon, the 62:18, the one I won. And I used it to kind of help me get in because I was like, hey, like I just ran this time. I don't know, someone like USA Triathlon might have helped me get into. I don't really know how it worked. Basically they're like, yeah, you can write. And then in the end it seemed like they let everyone race. So it didn't really make a difference. Just seemed like anyone who wanted to do it could go, but, but anyhow, yeah, like I thought, you know, my swimming, I was swimming pretty well. Um, and obviously I ran that half marathon and so I knew I was in like decent running shape. And like, I don't know, I thought I knew I'd probably go a little bit backwards on the bike, but like, I don't. I think I'm a pretty good, like a pretty strong cyclist. Uh, but you know, I actually trained mostly on a road bike, being a draft legal athlete. And actually I only train on a road bike, maybe the gravel bike too. And I didn't even have a time trial bike when I got into the race about a month before or maybe six weeks before. So I was lucky enough to have a bike sponsor at the time who made a time triathlon style time trial bike. So I was able to get that a couple of weeks before the race and I trained on it. But you know, I was, I was training on it all the while, I was trying to find a position I was comfortable in. But also, that's a super flat, no turn, no climb course, so aerodynamics is really important. So I want to be, you know, in my mind, I was like, I want to give myself a chance. I don't want to set up some, um, goofy position, like, some easy. Like, I could ride my road bike if I wanted to, and I could probably finish, but that's not gonna. I'm not gonna do well. So I was. I was probably picked a little bit of an aggressive position and didn't train on it enough. And. Yeah. So I got to the race, and I didn't really know. I didn't, you know, my goal. I didn't know, like, my goal was to do well. Like, I was like. And in my mind, I was, like, pretty positive in terms of the mindset I was taking. I actually worked with Claire, which I was. So I was really confident in my nutrition. Like, that was actually, like, one thing I was most confident in. Um, and I was like, you know, I could. I could have a. I could get passing the bike, and, like, guys can put, like, two or three minutes into me, four or five minutes, whatever it is, and I could still maybe catch some of them on the run. Like, who knows? And I knew, like, I was a pretty good swimmer, and, like, hopefully I'd have a gap. So, like, I was like, okay, like, maybe, you know, between swim. I was like, I'm looking at this as someone who's like, a swim bike or a swim runner. And then the bike is just like. How do you say, like, hemorrhaging the damage. Like, I was just like, I know I'm probably. Yeah. And my coach gave me, like, power number to hit. Yeah. So I was like, let me just, like, get through the bike and then run and whatever. So, yeah, just basically I was. I was doing okay on the bike. I was getting passed by a lot of guys, but I was still kind of like, you know, I was still, like, getting pat in my mind. Like, guys were coming by me that I. Like, I recognize them, and I'm like, these are still pretty good guys. And they're like. So, like, obviously I'm not doing so bad that, like, I'm going so slow that these guys are passing me. Like, it was still, like, 10 over halfway through the bike. And, like, obviously I swam a lot faster than them, but we didn't, you know, how much faster can you swim over? Was it 2k? So I was like, okay. Like, I'm not doing that bad? Like, I just gotta, like. Like I said, hemorrhage, you know, not just, like, not give up, but I would say I forget, like, maybe like, two thirds in. And I was. It was an hour in. My legs started to really not feel so good, and I was like, whoa. Like, this. This feels really bad. So I just. I started kind of, like, sitting up a little bit, and I even, like, stood up for a little bit, you know, like, try to, like, work out the. The cramps and the kinks in your legs. And maybe just, like. I was like, yeah. Like, it's not going so well. And I'm like, all right. Like, my legs are really tight. Like, I'm gonna stretch. Like, I'm gonna pull over to the side here and stretch. Because now my goal is to finish, and my legs are in a lot of pain. But I don't want to dnf, because that's. Yeah, that was just. And I already DNF that. That Czech Republic race in the crash. I was like, I can't do three triathlons this year, and DNF2. So I was like. And, like, in my. And the proof that I was actually just pulling over to stretch was it's a loop course, you know, and, like, all the bags and everyone is, like, on this side of the. On the. I stopped on the far side of the track because in my mind, I was gonna keep going. Like, why would I stop on the far side of the track if I was just, like, gonna quit? Like, I could ride another half lap, like, standing out of the saddle or just, like, rolling, basically. But, yeah, I pulled off to the side, and I just. My legs were, like, shaking, like, almost shivering, but just my legs, and I couldn't get off my bike. My legs hurt so bad, and they were so tight and so messed up, I couldn't even lift up my. You know, I couldn't lift up my. My leg to get over my seat, my saddle. And it was just. I just stood there, like, shaking for probably five minutes. And eventually I built up the willpower to lift that leg over. And then I just, like, laid on the ground for another, like, 10, 15 minutes because. And, like, at that point, I knew I wasn't going any longer, but I think I just. It was just really bad. And. And then, actually, my buddy Matt Go right, who's. I assume we. We were basically in the same exact boat. Like, got the bike a few weeks before, trying to do the best job to train on it, but the same exact thing happened to him, and we were Just like, whoa, what the heck? So I don't know. I mean, we obviously didn't train enough in that time trial position, the time trial bike and. Yeah.

Do you have aspirations to go to long course in the future or does that put you off?

You know, I go back and forth right now. I'm no, like, I don't plan on doing any sort of like long course race between now and Harris, you know, for better, for worse in the US like that's when people think of triathlon. That's what they're thinking of, the Ironman style racing and there's just like PTO racing. So I don't know. I mean, I don't want to say no, I'll never do it, but I also don't really have a desire to do it right now. I mean, in my mind, like it's been pretty hard and it's take like it's been pretty hard to kind of figure out short course and I still think I'm figuring it out like just to like now I want to enjoy that. You know, I can, I can feel confident going to races that I can like actually go and race. Like my, you know, my first couple years in the sport, it was, I was just like trying to survive these races and get to the run. And now I feel like I can actually go and race them and I just want to enjoy that for a while. Um, but I don't know, I mean it looks fun. Like there's definitely, you know, there's, you know, that Daytona race I think is like really, you know, maybe it's a spectator friendly course, but as an athlete I think it's really boring. So I don't want to be like, no, it's so boring because I'm sure some of those, you know, other style, you know, rolling style courses with different features on the bike are maybe a bit more interesting, but I don't have a desire to go back to Daytona anytime soon, I'll tell you that.

So you mentioned that you work with Claire. So Claire, how have you, how have you guys, you know, what sort of input have you had on Morgan's nutritional approach? And Morgan, what have you. Have you benefited from that, do you think?

I think, I think actually just to start with like Morgan, you were always eating like really well, but I think we actually kind of started to dial things in a little bit, so kind of really worked on the basics again. And one of the things actually that, you know, always meeting energy needs, but one of the things we really worked on was kind of like, recovery, wasn't it? And working on getting enough protein into your diet, and that's really sort of where it started and right to kind of where we are now, you know? You were talking about shopping, weren't you, Morgan?

Yeah.

Last thing we just worked on is actually getting a shopping list together so that you've always got the right food in at the right time so that can facilitate you to do what you need to do. We've kind of tapped away at it, haven't we, over the.

Yeah.

Are you a model student, Morgan? Are you. Are you following what Claire's telling you? I know every time I chatted to Laura Siddal about it, she said, claire gives me all this great advice, and I follow some of it.

But.

Are you following it all?

Yeah, I mean, I think, like, Claire said, it actually wasn't, like, any crazy big changes that we had to make, at least in my. Like, from my point of view. It didn't seem like she wasn't like, oh, you need to start eating, like, way more or way less or whatever. Like, we. It seemed like she. She just kind of helped me make some changes. And it's almost like for. For like, a couple weeks or whatever, you. You have to think about it. But then, you know, like anything, it becomes a little bit more second nature, you know, like, the last thing we. We've been working on is just because, like, over. I just kind of, you know, I'm trying to optimize everything, and, like, one thing that I think I can fail to do is kind of have enough groceries at home. And that's when I tend to, you know, not be that model citizen that you're talking about. Maybe, you know, I. I have. I go to the store, and for three or four days, I'm eating really well and kind of. I think Claire would be really proud of me. But then I get to that fourth or fifth day, and all of a sudden I don't have food at home. And I'm going to, you know, going out to eat and just. Or like, just like, maybe not even. I'm even worse. Like, I'm going just looking for what I have, and it's just like a bowl of pasta and red sauce, and. And then I go, that's it. And, like, so, like, that's what we're working at. Well, that's what we've worked on recently is just, like, having that food. And it's almost like I go to the store now, and I'm not just, like, buying food for, like, the next three or Four days. I'm like thinking like farther and farther ahead and like I've got to the point now where I'm like, okay, like if I have extra food, like that's a good thing. Like I don't need to be like. Cause I almost never like throw food away. And like I'm always like almost running low. So now it's like I'm always like trying to just like have a little bit extra and go to the store before I'm running out. And it's just. Yeah. I don't know.

It's when you're really. When you're really busy and that's kind of, you know, reflective of you being a professional triathlete but, you know, also busy working lives is sometimes we want to make all these changes and eat really, really well. But it is the time element, isn't it? And planning in your head. It's just something else to think about. So like those really practical things that we put in place in terms of just like this kind of skeleton and in terms of sort of shopping list and getting all the right kind of elements to it, there's quite a lot of research around.

When you're tired. You make far worse decisions around what you eat, don't you?

You tend to hungry, of course as well.

Exactly.

You tend to crave more sugar when you're tired.

So I was like, I'm sure. Well, maybe not Claire because, you know, she's a perfect eater, but nutritionist. But like you, you don't. You don't want to go to. You don't want to go to the store when you're hungry. I'm sure you've been there where you're like, oh yeah, I'm just buying everything, Oreos, whatever it is, you know. And then all of a sudden you like bought all these snacks, but nothing real.

Well, and so I was reading your profile, Morgan, and a couple of things stood out to me. I always, I always ask people for book recommendations and I know it says you're an avid reader, so I'm going to come back in a minute. But one of the things that I saw on your, on your profile is your keen drinker of alcohol free beers, which. Which I am too. I'm a big fan of alcohol free beers. So have you got any particular alcohol free beers that you, that you go to?

Yeah, I like oduls. Like I know that's the original one, but I think that I love that one. I like bush and a bush and a. I've tried the. Well, you're in. You're in Great Britain. But there's this one called Athletic Brewing Company.

Yes. Which they sponsor Ireland, don't they?

Okay. Yeah. I didn't know. I know they sponsor some runners, some. And probably some triathletes. Yeah, yeah. They sponsor. I want to say, like, what's his name? Hoffman. Ben Hoffman. And, you know, actually my roommate did a little. Did something for them or for some running camp and they sent, like. I think he, like, spoke to a running camp that was. I don't remember, but basically my roommate got a bunch sent to him. And, like, I tried them and I actually, like, they're all right, but I prefer the o'. Tools. Like, I prefer the original. You know, maybe it's just like being an American guy from New Jersey. Like, it's. It's not really like a craft beer state. You know, Colorado is like craft beers the thing. Or, you know, some of these places. But where I'm from in New Jersey, it's just like, people don't really drink that. They're just, like, drinking whatever. So that's why I like the odoues.

Well, I don't think we. I've never heard of o' Tools before. I don't think we get that in the uk, so I'll have to look at that when I. When I'm in the U.S. i will. I will be looking out for it.

Yeah. I mean, no promises. Like, most people say they don't like it, but.

Atlantic Brewing, we would. When Claire and I were down in Cornwall for that, for the ultramarathon we did a month or so ago, we were drinking both of the two Atlantic Brewing beers, and they're. I think they're both brilliant. Really good.

Yeah. Yeah.

And so coming back to books, then, what books do you find yourself recommending? What books had a significant impact on. On you?

Yeah. Well, I'll go back to this one book I read because I actually had a. It was the end of the 2019 season, and I felt like my. My last few races were these two World Cups in the. One was in Peru and one was in Dominican Republic, and I was in good shape and I wanted to do well there. And I did do well. You know, I got third in one and fifth in the other. So it wasn't. It wasn't all bad by any means, but I really thought. I thought I was mentally just, like, not as strong as I thought I could be. You know, I felt like I was getting near the end of the race, the run, and I was getting tight, um, and you know, I was. I don't know if you've ever had this happen, or maybe a listener has, but I'm running in a pack full of guys, and I'm just, like, looking at every single guy and like, kind of analyzing them. And why is this guy still here? I'm a better runner than him. Like, how is he still here? I'm still on paper. And then you. The race goes longer and longer, and all of a sudden you're like. You're thinking it and you're overthinking it, and you're really tight, and it's just like it was overthinking, I think, in the end what it was. And so I read this book, but my girlfriend recommended it, was called. I think it's called the Champions Mindset. And yeah, that's one I would recommend to someone who's maybe dealing with a similar mental blocks, because it really helped. You know, it's not a long book, a couple, maybe 200 pages. But it's like each chapter is kind of a different tool you can use to, you know, like, it talks a lot with some golfers. I think the guy had been a sports psychologist with golfers, which. I mean, that's an incredibly mental sport.

So it's not Dr. Bob Roteller, is it?

I don't know, man. It could be.

I've just bought it, but not read it, funnily enough.

Oh, Claire, you have a few books like that. Can you tell us who it's by?

No, I can't remember.

Well, I don't know. I've not heard of this book before. But what you're talking about sounds like it could be Dr. Bob Rotello, who is a golf psychologist.

Okay.

But I. I'll. I will Google it afterwards and I'll put a link to it in the show notes. But it sounds brilliant. It sounds right up my street. So that. That sounds fantastic. I'll be good. Yeah, I'll be adding that to the reading list. And the last question for you from me anyway, unless Claire's got any. That anyone that she wants to ask, what do you. What are your. What's your big goal at the moment? You know, looking forward, whether it be a year or two, three years, I guess, maybe. What's your big goal that you're focused on?

Yeah, I mean, I'm trying to get back to the Olympics for sure, but. So that's kind of the big goal. But, you know, right now it's just my goal this year is really to just get better at, you know, get do more racing and get really good at racing. And, like, not just the race itself. You know, I want to go gain a lot of experience. Like, I was. I was talking about kind of that, like, with, like, the really good cyclists. Like, I want to really, like, immerse myself with all the best guys in the world and just raise them as much as I can, because I feel like that's what I'm going to really improve. But also kind of that. That what comes along with racing, the travel, you know, the. The nutrition's not as easy. You know, how can I. How can I get better at that? Uh, how can I train around these races and improve and keep improving, even when I'm, you know, racing a lot and traveling a lot? So that's. I know it's kind of maybe not what you're looking for, but that's. That's kind of my goal this year. I mean, it's going to be an interesting year. I think just being. Coming off, you know, 2020 was a really weird year with COVID And then last year was kind of the Olympics, and that's kind of what really mattered to most. So now it's gonna be kind of like, I think people are gonna be kind of feeling each other out a little bit more than normal and racist. You know, there's gonna be some new guys that pop up and some old guys are gonna. You know, people might think that they're kind of done. And I bet they're not gonna be. And it's gonna be interesting. You know, who's gonna. Who's gonna keep the momentum going? Who's gonna. Who's gonna. Who's gonna deliver? So I'm really excited for the year.

Fantastic. So it's a basic. It's about building up loads more experience so that. With a view to. That getting you, you know, helping you get to the Olympics further. It's brilliant. By the way, I did just Google that book. It's not by Dr. Bob Rotella. It's called the Champion's Mind. And it's How Great Athletes Think, Train and Thrive by Jim Afro. Afromo, I think, is how you say it. Does that sound right?

That's the one that I've got, actually.

Okay.

Yeah, it looks, it looks, looks. Looks like it gets very good ratings anyway. And the fantastic news is it's available as an audiobook, which means I will be adding it to my reading list immediately.

Yeah, that's it.

Brilliant. Well, that's excellent, Morgan. It's been an absolute pleasure chatting to you. Thank you so much. I think there's loads of great advice there. I'm really happy I'm walking away with a couple of alcohol free recommendations as well as something for the reading list. So that's been, it's been absolutely brilliant. Claire, was there anything else that you wanted to.

No, absolutely. Thank you Morgan. It's been fantastic as always to catch up with you and yeah, looking forward to the year ahead.

Yeah, thanks, thanks for both of you guys. Times a bit of a commitment but I really appreciate, I really appreciate it.

Well, I really appreciate your time and I wish you massive success in the year and years coming and I'm sure there is a lot to be, lot to be seen by the way, the way that you've gone about the first few years of your triathlon career. So thank you so much and we'll watch eagerly.

Yeah, I appreciate it.

If you want to find out more about Morgan, the best places to go are Instagram where he is morgancadwellpierson and also on Twitter where he is morganpearson. So what did you make of that conversation with Morgan, Claire?

Morgan's awesome but you know I work with him so he's pretty amazing. I love listening to the stories anyway when we have athletes on. But I think one of the things that really stood out is the fact that, and actually this is one of my theories is that he grew up at school and this real commitment to like swimming and we all know like swimmers train really, really hard and he had that real kind of commitment and background, didn't he? And then sort of going into his running and the same sort of thing as he kind of went up through, into university and really interesting like how he contacted USA Triathlon, thought like I can do this. So that for me was, was, you know, the background story was amazing and like the brilliant, you know, his kind of theory on don't, you know, don't be afraid to fail. I just think that is that for me is a real takeaway.

Well and he certainly, I mean he was a brilliant demonstration of that, wasn't he? I mean like going from running to triathlon, going well, you know, I don't really cycle but I can do, I can be one of the best in the world at this sport. And then I, now that I've started this sport, I can be at the Olympics for this sport. And you're like that in, you know, and he was setting himself a three year goal to go from not doing the sport to getting to the Olympics. I mean, I mean as he said he got an Extra year, as it turned out. But, I mean, that's just phenomenal, isn't is?

And you know, just the kind of sheer determination of turning up with those guys going cycling in Boulder and then like, getting dropped the whole time and then eventually going, oh, actually, I'm cycling with them. This is. This is progress, you know, and just not giving up and wanting to get better and better. And that's. That's something he said at the end, wasn't it, that he just wants to improve every way he can?

Yeah. Yeah. I thought. I thought he was really brilliant to listen to. And I. Yeah, I thought there was a lot of interesting stuff for me around the Olympics and how, you know, his. How his preparation for the Olympics wasn't good. In fact, he. He did exactly what Charlie Spedding said that a lot of people do, which is. It's the Olympics, it's bigger than everything else, therefore, I'll do it differently to what I've done all. All the other stuff. And of course, that. That has a massive impact. But then the team approach seemed to me, and he didn't cover it quite so much in this interview, but when I listened to him talk about it before, it was like he felt a massive responsibility for his teammates and it was a totally. It sounded like it was a totally different mentality to how he went into the individual race. So I thought that was. I thought it was really interesting. And. Yeah. Yeah. What else did you take from it and anything else that you took from that interview?

I think it was interesting that, you know, when we often, like, speak to triathletes and things, people are looking to go long or to go. You know, you asked about kind of like 70.3 and actually, like, he was just saying he. You know, the fact he just loves racing. And it seems that that that's where he is right now and he's quite happy to be there. And you don't, like, not often are we hearing people say that they're great where they are.

Actually, I thought that it was quite a contrast to Rudy von Berg, wasn't it? Who's like. He was like, I definitely want to get up to long course, really, as. As quickly as I can.

Whereas.

Whereas Morgan was like, nah, I'm happy with this distance. And, you know, who knows, that might change in the future. I think it's. I think what he's doing on the. In the half marathons is absolutely amazing those times are they.

Are you watch any videos of him running? They are just amazing to watch as well. He is. He Is it just looks absolutely, just like seamless. The way that he runs is.

Yeah, yeah, no, a very, very good athlete. Definitely going places and yeah, and I thought, interesting that yes, his big goal is the next Olympics, but this year it's just to race lots and really get, you know, it's about that purposeful practice, isn't it? It's not just about doing the 10,000 hours of cycling, swimming and running, but actually putting yourself in that race environment as many times as you can.

And I think, you know, one of the things that he always does as well, and hence, you know, us working together is he wants to look at every single area of his training to get him to where he needs to be. And that's actually where we started looking at nutrition because he was, he was looking, you know, and that's what came across today. You know, I want to like better myself in all of these different areas, you know. Yeah, brilliant.

Really, really interesting guy and loads that we can all take away from it, I think including more alcohol free beer. I'm very, very happy with that. Anyway. Well, I hope your recovery from the ultra continues to go well and your, your upticking of the, of the triathlon training goes. Actually the one question I didn't ask you in the intro, which I, I meant to is so now that you've kind of got your head around the whole ultra running thing is the 100 mile next.

The fire was always lit I think as soon as, as soon as we started that 50 mile race. But yeah, I think it's just when and where. But yes, I think it's definitely one on the horizon.

It doesn't fit well with triathlon training, does it? It's a bit like, you know, you want to run a marathon. I want, or I want to run a marathon as part of my Ironman training because it's like, well, if I'm going to run 26.2 miles in an Ironman, I quite like the idea of running 26.2 miles before it. But actually it really messes up and the ultra running seems to even mess it up even more, doesn't it? So.

Well, I don't know.

I think it's, I think there's some transferability there because you know, thinking about kind of when we did the ultra race, actually we've got ourselves in a good position in terms of being fit. I mean, dodgy ankles aside. Other than that.

Well, I think it's definitely a sort of off season sport for me. I think, I think with the risk of injury and everything else. I think it's. Sorry, say again?

We've got ankle injuries. We weren't injured.

But I think it's. Yeah, end of season. End of season. November, sort of 100 miler. That's where I'm at. And I'll continue to try and recruit you. Well, anyway, keep up the amazing training. I hope that all goes well and for everybody else, keep on training. If you enjoyed this podcast, please do review it and share it because it helps other people find what we think is really valuable learning lessons from amazing athletes. And so please do that. You can also find the whole back catalog@tribathlon.com and you can also find out about the Tribeathlon app, which helps people find events, find people to train with and enjoy their events through their tribe. So check out tribathlon. Com.