Triumph over Adversity with Karen Smyers

Foreign.

I'm charlie redding.

And I'm claire fudge.

And this is the tribe athlon podcast.

The most important part of tapering is that you follow the three, two, one taper plan, which is three beers three nights before the race, two beers two nights before the race, and one beer the night before the race. And it's the perfect taper and gets you just, you know, completely ready to race.

That was Karen Smyers and this episode is Triumph Over Adversity. Hello. How are you doing?

Hello. Yeah, good, thank you. How are you?

I am good, thank you. Welcome to everyone for season five of the Tribathlon podcast. We have got an awesome season five lined up. Season four brought some brilliant, like some of my favorite interviews. But season five is going to be, going to be an awesome season. We've got lots of cool stuff lined up, haven't we?

Yep. So tell us who we've got lined up because there are some exciting ones already.

Well, I'm, I'm not going to tell you who we've got lined up. I'm going to give you some sort of little teasers as to who we've got lined up because I actually think, you know, we've got some, we've got some really cool people lined up, but equally it's nice, I think it's good to have a, a bit of intrigue around these things. So we have got, who have we got lined up? We've got some, a pair of coaches that are at the forefront of technology. So, you know, I love technology. We have got two coaches that love their technology and I'm. And there was loads of good ideas that came out of that. We have got an incredibly successful triathlete from years gone by, like one of the top names in the sport. So that's really, really cool and really exciting. We have got a seven time world champion plus the global president of his format of the sport lined up as well. Like some bonkers are some great stuff in, in that interview and loads of stuff to take away. We've got an American Olympian coming up. We've got a race organizer, one of the top race organizers in the uk. We have got like ultra runners that go on sort of 300 mile runs through, through the desert. We've got physios, we've got nutritionalists, we've got people that are world renowned for their sports science. We've got people that nearly died from different, whether it's a bomb or a accident and then, and then have gone on to achieve unbelievable things. Wow. Have we got running coaches, doctors, the whole lot. I can't believe it.

We've, we've covered pretty much everything and I love the fact that we are covering such a broad variety of people and we've also got some more people with, with nutrition and interesting thoughts about nutrition, which I love a good debate about. So that's going to be exciting for me. And also I think we've got a really good balance of people that are giving us a little bit more science and information and then we've also got people with amazing stories and history, haven't we as well?

Yeah, exactly. That balance between information and inspiration of, you know, and like what can we learn from those people that have got incredibly inspiring stories but also what can we learn from the scientists and the, and I know you love a good debate on nutrition and how we can optimize that and kind of some of the differing opinions in the world of nutrition.

So I think differing opinions everywhere, is it not, you know, are slightly differing opinions in technology, you know, but that, that, that leads to exciting conversations and debate and, and also I think maybe whether things are not right or wrong, it's, it's what's right for a person isn't, absolutely is.

And so, but I think it's, it's great to get different people on that challenge your beliefs just to kind of open up different conversations and, and yeah, I think it's going to be an amazing that within this season we've got our hundredth episode. So that will remain a secret, but that will be a special episode for sure.

Gonna be amazing. 100 episodes is, yeah, pretty, pretty fantastic.

Awesome, isn't it? I can't believe, I can't believe that we've. Yeah, it's, I can't believe that we'll have done 100 episodes by that point. It's, it's fun because it seems like we haven't really, I haven't been really doing this for that long, so yeah, it's absolutely crazy. But it shows like the amount of, I mean there's probably a good time to just refer back to some of those incredible podcasts that have been in that first 85 so far. You know, whether it's Mark Allen, whether it's Bob Bob. Whether it's kind of incredible like endurance people like Mark Beaumont, Sean Conway, who's currently doing 100 trying to do 102 Ironmans in 102 days. John McAvoy, who got sentenced to life in prison for armed robbery and ended up becoming a Nike sponsored professional triathlete. Like so, like ridiculous, ridiculous episodes that couldn't have dreamed to have done at the start.

And actually, you know, I feel honored to be a part of that as well. To speak to all these different people. I think it's a, you know, it's amazing to interview such an array of different people and yes, such history behind them, which I think is, yeah, it's been fun. And I think, you know, these next or this next season is going to be an exciting, slightly different step with some new people as well. So I think that's going to be fab. And one of on that point, one thing that we are going to ask everybody to do is if you'd like to ask a question to anybody that we're interviewing, but we are not going to tell you who it is. So it is a question that you would like to pose to some of the great athletes and scientists that we're getting on. Then you can post it on any of our social handles. So whether that's on Instagram, it's whether it's on Twitter, LinkedIn. Have I left any out, Charlie?

Or you can just email us at, you know, if you go to the tribathlon.com website, you can contact us through that as well. But yeah, yeah, just send us the questions.

And what's the great thing about people sending questions? Because there's a next step to this as well.

Well, there is. Well, there's two great things about people sending questions. So one of the things that I've absolutely loved since we introduced it is getting the last guest to ask the next guest a question without knowing who it is because some of the best content has come out of those very random, you know, questions. So we want to take that to another level and introduce a question from our audience as well as from the next guest to again kind of mix it up. So the, so that's one great thing is we'll get even more diverse content and even more interesting conversations as a result of these semi random questions. The other great thing is they can win stuff, can't they? So from the trusted team, from the trusted team, my, my coaching business, you can win a workshop. So one of our in person workshops or one of our virtual workshops, you can come along, you can experience the workshop firsthand, really get an understanding of how you can grow your business, how you can improve your work life balance and also how you can make life personal and business more fun, more fit, more healthy. So that's what you can get from the trusted team. But I think fourth, you and fourth Discipline are going to throw something in as well, aren't you?

Absolutely. And I would say, yeah, absolutely amazing to have that, that workshop with regards to growing business. So that is really valuable, I would say, in terms of, say, get those questions in, because that is a. That's a good one. But if you want something nutrition, then fourth discipline are offering a nutrition consultation. So if you want to optimize your performance. So if you are an athlete, or maybe you're a retired athlete and want to optimize your performance in, in life, in general or in business, then, yeah, you can win a. Win a consultation with myself.

Awesome.

And I know how valuable that is because it's been a mass. It's had a massive impact on my personal life as well as my racing life. So that is a tremendous opportunity. So just to be clear, if somebody asks us a question that we use in the podcast, you get both the workshop and the fourth discipline consultation. So get on the social media platform, send us some great questions that we can ask, and if we choose them, then you'll win both of those. And just to be clear, so the podcast, now that we're up and running with season five, the podcast will be coming out every two weeks. We usually release the episode on a Friday, so keep an eye out and. But the most important thing you can do to help us and to demonstrate that we're providing great podcasts is to hit the subscribe button. Doesn't matter whether you listen to it on Spotify, Apple or Google, or if you watch it on YouTube, then. But whichever platform you use, if you hit subscribe, then that really helps us to continue to provide great content. But it also tells us that you. That you love the episode as well. So please do that. And yeah, we've got. We've got some great episodes coming up, haven't we?

Yep. I'm really, really excited. I'm really excited to have those random questions from everybody as well.

Yeah, absolutely. Me too. Me too. Right, well, in that case, let's dive in to season five of the Tribeathlon podcast. In the world of triathlon, Karen Smyers is a force to be reckoned with. In 1995, she etched her name in history as the first American woman to conquer the prestigious Ironman World Championship. Her triumphs continued as she secured titles like the ITU Triathlon World Championships and claimed the US National Champion title three times. She's still the only lady to win the Ironman World Championship and the ITU World Championship in the same year. Wow, that's a mouthful. But Karen's journey, however, has not been without its hurdles, as she's faced both accidents and serious illness. Yet her unwavering determination and unwavering spirit drove her to overcome this adversity and return to the sport she loved. Beyond physical prowess, Karen embodies the power of mental fortitude and focus. Her ability to navigate setbacks and push through the most challenging moments has been an inspiration to athletes worldwide. So Claire and I really wanted to chat to her about how she deals with injuries, about how she gained mental fortitude, and also about her infamous three, two, one, taper. I know as episode, the first episode of episode one of season five, you are going to love this interview with the legend that is Karen Smyers. So, Karen, welcome to the Tribe Athlon podcast, a legend of the sport. I'm really looking forward to chatting you to today. Obviously Claire here as well. So I always like to start each episode with the story. So let's start right at the beginning. How did you get into triathlon? And you know, how did that those early years in triathlon progress for you?

Sure.

Well, thanks for having me on here. It's always a pleasure. I love seeing all the great stories that you guys have put on your podcast. So it's very fun for me to be a part of it. So, yeah, I got into. I was always a sporty kid, you know, loved the seemed like my life revolved around sports. Growing up, I was in a family of there were seven kids in my family. I was right smack in the middle and I was always just trying to keep up to my older brothers and sisters. In the beginning, you know, they joined the swim team. So I joined the swim team. They started playing tennis, I started playing tennis. I had a brother that was two years older, so I also tailed him around playing football and baseball and Frisbee and anything. He would let me play with him and his friends. So it was a little bit of me keeping up with the older kids, which I think kind of helped my competitiveness a little bit. And in high school, I was, you know, three season athlete. I was gymnastics, swimming and tennis. But gradually swimming was becoming my main sport. So I went to college, focused on that. But I found myself at the end of the spring when swimming was ending. I was like, gosh, I have a few months, I'm in school and I don't have a sport. This feels so weird. My life is usually about fitting in classes around my training. So I had a roommate who was a runner and she's like, oh, you got to walk Onto the track team. And I had done a little bit of running for preseason training for swimming and discovered that I was. Was one of the better runners of the swimmers, which is a very low bar, but it still gave me a little encouragement. So I'm like, oh, yeah, sure, sounds fun. So I went and talked to the track coach, and he let me walk on. Although he told me, I told him I could run three miles without stopping, which, you know, compared to the swimmers that was saying something. And he's like, okay, well, you know, why don't you build up a little more base? You know, get up to running like five, six miles, run an hour, and to build some base, and then you can start coming to practices. And I tried to, like, add 5, 10, 15 minutes onto my runs, and everything started to break down. I was like, my ankles hurt, my knees hurt, my hips hurt, you know, anything below my neck pretty much. And I finally went back. I'm like, I just want to run the mile. Why do I have to run so far? So he let me start coming to practice, and eventually we figured it out. So that was how I graduated from college, was with this swim run background and. And that same college roommate discovered triathlon for the summer after we graduated. And she trained for the Boston Triathlon Bud Light triathlon in that summer. And there was prize money. And she's like, I'm not going to get a summer job, because I think if I do well, I can make enough money that it'd be better than having a job. So I kind of watched from afar as she did that, and she did end up placing and earning some money. And I was like, this sounds like a great thing to do. So I started training with her and entered my first race the following year.

Amazing.

Yeah, it took, you know, I did it as a hobby for five. Let's see, that was 84. So until 89, it was just kind of a hobby for me. But I did start entering the Pro field in 85. Funnily enough, I entered that same Bud Light triathlon that she had the following year. And I would have been, I think, second or third, but they didn't call me up for the prize money, and they just called me up as an amateur winner or something. And so I went and talked to the race director. I'm like, I think I beat that second pro girl. How come I didn't get the money? And he's like, oh, you didn't enter the pro category? And so I was like, well, how do you do that? He's like, Next time on the entry form, check the pro box. That's like, oh, okay. That's how I became pro is just start checking the box easier. Back then, I was going to say.

That'S slightly different to how it would be now, isn't it? But fantastic. So tell us about your. What you consider to be your first big success in. In your triathlon career.

I definitely think of my breakthrough race was in 1985. There was a race called the Bay State Triathlon. Dave McGilvery, who you may have heard of, was the race director. He was kind of responsible for getting a lot of the triathlon scene off the ground. And back then, pretty much you knew everybody that was doing the races. You talk about your tribe. Well, back then, anyone that did triathlon was in our tribe. Because I would go out training, if I saw, say, somebody swimming across Walden Pond, I'd be like, oh, you must do triathlon nowadays. I go there. There's, you know, a beat full of people that are all swimming across, and I'm like, oh, great, too crowded, you know. But back then there was just a handful of us and we were all at the same races at. Because there were only five or six races throughout the whole summer. It was just this really cool new thing that, you know, if you were a part of it, you were buddies, you know. So anyway, the Bay State Triathlon, he had managed to get some prize money and he had invited some pros from across the country. So people like Colleen Cannon and. Who are some of the other names? Well, Allison Rowe was a big one, so she was a Boston Marathon champion who had then decided to take up triathlon. So she was in the field. Beth Mitchell was one of the old pros. Anyway, there were these people that I had seen in magazines, and I was like, oh, my God, this is so scary. So it was at the distance of a mile swim, 40 mile bike, 10 mile run, and I got in. I was a good swimmer from my college swim, so I was okay on the swim. The bike was definitely my weakness, and I fell a little bit behind on the bike. But on the run, I was able to catch up to Allison Rowe. And we made our way to the front. We're running side by side at one point. And then I eventually kind of dropped her and ended up winning the race. And so there's this kind of iconic photo of me racing next to Allison Rowe. That's really cool. But anyway, that really, like, sort of, you know, was an eye opener that I was like, wow, I can compete against, you know, the Big names I've seen in the magazines.

Fantastic. And what do you think? What do you think the highlight of. You had an amazing career, and we're going to come on to the sort of lows about, you know, the battles that you had.

But.

And feel free to kind of tell the story of that if it's linked to it. But what do you think the highlight of your triathlon career was?

It's hard to pick, you know, because for me, I think it's sort of. It was a little bit. The totality of it, I think, you know, that just to have, like, a fairly lengthy career where, you know, I was near the top of the sport in several different decades, and, you know, certainly all the world championship wins were highlights. You know, when I won in Orlando, Florida, in 1990, it was so unexpected that it was just a huge thrill. I had been fourth in Avignon the year before, which was obviously the very first world championship. And so it was cool just to be a part of that. Like, looking back, I just. Just feel honored to have been, you know, part of the beginning movements of. Of the triathlon kind of forming into a world sport. And so I had an idea after that that, you know, maybe I also. Fourth. I didn't realize at the time I was like, oh, my God, I'm fourth in the world. And then at the awards, they only called up the top three, like the Olympics. And I'd never been a part of an event where only the top three get the awards, you know. And so I was sort of like, hey, wait, what? And so after that, I was like, all right, top three is where it's at. And so I went into Orlando really, like, hoping just to get to the top three and really surprised myself. I mean, I went through a tough phase in that race where it was in Orlando in the middle of the day. I'm from Boston. I had it in my head that I was no good in the heat. And the run. We didn't start until we were probably running at noon on the golf course. No shade. You know, it was just really hot. And I remember getting. I'd started the run in second and had then gotten. And I was thinking on that as I started to run. I'm good. This is my strength. Good. I'm top three. I'm, you know, what am I going to wear on the podium? You know, thinking ahead a little bit, and all of a sudden I get passed by two people, Joy Hansen and Carol Montgomery, and I was like, a mile into the run, I was like, oh, man. I'm in fourth again. Geez. You know, And I kind of stay with them, but I just felt like I could not do it at that point. And they started to pull ahead, and the next few miles were just this, like, negative spiral. And I was just thinking about, God, look at how thin they are. It's no fair. They're from a running background. I gotta lug around these big swimmer shoulders, you know, and just making all these excuses about why I wasn't running, you know, couldn't catch them. It was too hot from Boston, and said, why are they putting a race on at noon in the middle of Florida anyway? You know, all kinds of things. And it took. I ran by Scott Molina. So at the time, Aaron Baker was the person out in front. And she, we knew, was a little vulnerable because she'd done an Ironman just a few weeks before that. And so we thought maybe, maybe, maybe she has tired legs. And so at about four miles, maybe I go by. Scott Molina was cheering and married to Aaron Baker, and he's American. However, she's New Zealand. And so he cheered for me as I went by. And I gave him this look like, you know how hot it is out here. It must have been a very negative look. And he was like, karen, you gotta want it. And it was just one of those, like, comments that sort of cut through my negativity and woke me up. And I was like, oh, my God, he's so right. Like, I've been training for this for a full year. What I wanted is 15 seconds up the road, second and third. And all I can think is of, I'm hot, You know, I can be drinking a beer in 20 minutes and cooling down. Like, just suffer a little more, you idiot. You know? And so I just kind of put my head down and just tried to get closer. And eventually I found myself passing Aaron Baker, who I didn't. Hadn't even really focused on. So I ran into third. She was finally kind of fading because of her Ironman. And with a half mile to go, I just found myself coming up on their shoulders, and it was a little uphill. And I was like, don't stop. Just go by them. And I just ran by him. And I remember Carol, I sort of surprised them because when they passed Aaron, they were thinking, okay, it's down to the two of us, you know? And they were doing a little, you know, games with each other, I think. And when I ran by, Carol said to Joy, Aaron's back, like, I'd been risen from the dead. And I Kind of think of like I had been risen from like a dead mental state, you know. So anyway, I caught him by surprise and just sprinted my brains out. Managed to be the first to high five Mickey Mouse at the finish line. So anyway, for a lot, very long answer. But that race really sticks out because of the surprise, the, you know, how deep I had to dig to win. All I mental stuff I had to overcome in the middle. And from then on, it kind of put me in a state where, you know, I believed I could win if I had everything going right.

I guess I love the saying, you gotta want it. That's. Yeah, yeah, that's great. I'm gonna. I've written that down.

I was thinking more that the fact you were racing for a beer at the end, so you got there a few minutes early to get your beer.

That's always been a little bit of.

A motivation.

A good drive.

Kind of a theme that goes through my career, actually. I was actually sponsored by Budweiser for a little while.

Brilliant. So one other story I really wanted to hear was the. So you are still the only female to have won the Ironman World Championships and the Olympic Distance ITU World Championships in the same year. And I believe you're the only one that's done it. What I would consider to be the hard way round. So Ironman first, ITU second. So tell us a bit about all of that. You know, that winning Kona, then going on to win the ITU World Championships.

Yeah, well, I've always really loved the Olympic distance. I was a little bit of a. I was very resistant into doing Ironman and it took really my. I mean, I definitely. I went to watch it one time, I just thought of it as like this race for crazy people. And I was like, yeah, that's, that's. That's not me. And I really never love the long, long, long training. But I went to watch it once, and it was a year that Aaron Baker and Paul Newby Frazier had a battle with each other. And watching them race, I kind of realized like, wow, this. And I. At the time, I'd raced Aaron quite a bit and thought of her as just invincible. Unless she, you know, did something silly like race in Ironman right before the world. But she's actually a person that could have done it for sure. She just didn't quite get the timing right. But yeah, I realized, like, this is a race. These guys are in such great shape. It's not just like a suffer fest where who can put up with kind of, you know, I don't know, the most, like, outrageous circumstances or something. I realized, like, they've trained to be able to go fast. And I saw how fast their marathons were and how fast they were biking, and so it got me a little more intrigued, I guess.

And.

But I still was a little bit resistant. And it was. Finally, my husband qualified. He had that same base state triathlon several years later, ended up getting Ironman slots. Back then, you could get a slot for the Ironman at shorter races. And he and a bunch of my team, psycho teammates all decided, we're going for the Ironman slots. And my sister actually. And they were all amateurs, but a whole bunch of them got slots, including my husband. And I had told him before my, like, you're trying to get a Hawaii slot. He's like, yeah, you know, everybody else is. And I was like, all right, if you get a slot, then I'll race it too. But sort of thinking, there's no way he's gonna get it. And then he ended up qualifying. And I was like, all right, well, I'm not going to Hawaii. And watching you guys, like, I gotta do it too. So I had to quickly try and figure out a way to qualify as a pro. And back then it was so much easier. Like, people were like, you know, they were giving away the slots because people. People that wanted to do it got. Would qualify early on. And then we get handed down at some races afterwards. And I remember we got David Yates to put up a couple slots at the Chicago Triathlon Olympic distance. And Mike Pig also wanted a slot, so he put it up for the men's and women's winners. And Mike ended up winning and getting his. And I was second to McKeely Jones. But McKee's like, I don't want it. Here you go. And so I was able to get the slot. But anyway, so yeah, it took me a while to kind of warm up to the Ironman distance. But even once I did it, the training for me was so mentally, like, grueling that I still like to do a lot of short distance races. And I would just. Back then, because I didn't have to do several Ironmans a year, if you place top 10, you were automatically qualified for the next year. So I got away with just doing one Ironman a year. And that would be, you know, I do Olympic, Olympic get really fit quality wise. And then I would be like, okay, time for long distance that I would just layer in a bunch of weekends and, you know, midweek bricks and stuff. And it was like an eight week kind of build plus a couple weeks of paper where it would be okay, this is Ironman training. And then I would race Iron Man. So it wasn't like this year long, you know, thing that would have really burnt me out and so. And it kept me from getting, I think, you know, slow for one thing. Sometimes if you do too much Ironman stuff you lose your speed. And I still like the world championships at short distance still really intrigued me. So I wanted to include that as much as I could. And the first year I tried to do the double was 93, I guess it was right maybe no, 93 it was beforehand. 94 in New Zealand. I think it was six weeks afterwards. And I thought I was in good shape, I could do well. And I realized that what I had done afterwards, I bonked in the Olympic distance triathlon like on the run. I was like almost falling over and I got to the finish, I remember I could barely even open my eyes until I got like a Coke in me. And then all of a sudden I was like, oh, I was out of sugar, you know, like I didn't. I never take stuff in during Olympic distance race. So it was, that was completely new to me. But I think I had depleted my store so much in Ironman training and racing and then I had gone back and done too much training. Between six weeks was just a little too long to get away with just sort of resting. And so the following year 95, it was five weeks and I was like I am not going to over train in between. And so I really didn't do that much. I was in good heat shape, you know, from the race was in Cancun and Hawaii was five weeks before. You know, I spent two to three weeks not doing much at all. Then a week or two of just a little bit of tuning and then I found myself kind of ready to race in Cancun. I mean I didn't know for sure and to be honest it was the first non draft legal world championships which in hindsight probably fed into my strengths because I did not have to bike that hard. So it wasn't like a two hour hard race. It was a hard swim. Sit in on the bike and, and have some run legs, you know. It was actually a very strange bike ride. It was. We were still figuring it out and I was in a pack with Emma Carney had actually had a terrible swim. But Emma Carney was in my pack and she was like on fire at the time and she just pulled us all up to the lead Group. There were some good runners in the lead group, but they had been working hard to try and stay away from our pack. And so they had burnt their legs out a little bit, I think. And so I remember sitting next to Joanna Richie in the pack, and we were, like, sitting up and chatting. She's like, can you believe this is a world championship? I'm like, I know. This is so bizarre. Get ready to run. It just seems so weird that you'd ever be in a world championships where you weren't just trying your hardest the whole time. But it ended up working out for my situation. I was able to run well in the heat, which is what you had to do in Cancun.

So of the two, which did you celebrate? Which did you drink more beer after, and which did you appreciate the win in?

Well, you know, Hawaii was definitely, you know, that's like such a different thing. You know, it changes your life. Like, I'd won a world championships before, and it hadn't changed my life. Like, outside of the world of triathlon, no one really knew. As a matter of fact, after I won the one in Orlando, there had been a friend of ours who wrote for the Boston Herald. He was in. In our wedding and everything, and he had traveled with us to Orlando and written a story about me winning the world championships for the Boston Herald. But we got back from Florida, and my husband owned this bar at the in Boston called the Elliott Lounge, which, if you know much about running, it's a very famous bar at the near the finish of the Boston Marathon. And tons of runners all over the walls. In any case, we went back for a beer after, when we got back from Florida, right when the plane landed, and we're sitting in there, and you know my friend Steve that wrote for the Herald, he's like, aaron, it's so weird. Like, yesterday you were champion of the world, and now you're just Mike King's girlfriend sitting at the bar. Not much has changed, has it? So it was funny as much as that was huge within the triathlon world for me, people outside the sport did not know that much about it. But Ironman Hawaii, it transcended the sport a little bit, and I got tons more attention for it. And, yeah, it was just such an iconic race, and so many things have to go right to win it. I think there was still a little bit of the way that I won. It was, I think, tough because, you know, obviously Paula Newby Frazier was more like, she lost it than I want it, in a way. And so it was it was hard to be as celebratory about that win because you kind of felt like, oh, geez, if, you know, if she'd stayed on her feet and at least finished behind me, then it would have seemed a little bit, you know, more like I beat her fair and square. But knowing what she had gone through and how she was basically fighting her own demons and, you know, I think I. I played a factor, but it was. Yeah, it was hard, especially at the finish line after I'd finished and she's nowhere to be found. And, you know, everybody's attention was on what happened to Paula. Not, like, it's amazing, Karen, you know, including mine. I mean, I was as confused as anybody. I was like, she was right there. I don't know where she is. So anyway, so that I think that put a tiny bit of a, you know, damper on the win, but, you know, it's still definitely one of the highlights of my career, for sure. Yeah. And. And knowing, you know, I also went through as much as she was fighting demons, so was I. You know, I gotten so far behind on the bike and was not part of my plan. And I also was going through one of those, you know, times just like I did in Orlando where I was like, what's the point? You know, I stink and I'm just throwing my bike into the ocean. This is ridiculous. No, and we all have one of.

Those moments in a rate environment.

And what's, you know, so cool is that you can be so down in the dumps and then still end up having, you know, a race of your dreams. And, you know, some days you're down in the dumps and you talk your way through it saying, don't give up, don't give up. And you still end up having a terrible race. But sometimes you don't. You actually overcome it and come back. And so that's why, you know, I've. I've always really. I've been afraid of ever dropping out of a race because I always thought, you know, if you do it once, it's a slippery slope, you know, like, you can't ever give in to those feelings because it's too easy to start doing it. You know, you never know when it's going to turn around.

With the benefit of hindsight, is there anything that you started doing that helped you get through those dark moments to kind of power through or get through them quicker?

Well, there's tons of things. I mean, you know, through your career, that's what you're constantly doing, is creating more Tools in your tool chest for getting through tough times. And, you know, certainly I thought, oh, yeah, I've learned my lesson. You know, when Scott Malindi yelled, you gotta want it, you know, not to let negative, you know, thoughts like spiral down make you spiral down. But, you know, the exact same thing happened five years later in Hawaii when Paula was putting all this time on me. And, you know, it was classic mistakes. It was, you know, focusing on things outside of my control, which was, how am I doing relative to Paula? I mean, she was having this amazing bike ride, and I was judging how I was doing based on the fact that she was putting all this time on me, that I must be having a terrible day, you know, and I should throw out that I. It was another icon of the sport that kind of put. Put things into perspective again for me, which was Dave Scott happened to be out there cheering that year. Came out of Kawaii High at, like, probably it's about 40 miles to go in the bike ride and to kind of a steep hill. It's all hot right after the long descent from Havi. And I was getting splits constantly. You know, I'd been with her till 25 miles of the bike, and then she gradually. As the.

The.

The headwind was terrible, and she just was cutting through the wind, and I just was like a Mack truck in the. And just going nowhere. And so I keep getting splits. You know, you're one minute behind. I'm like, I know. I can see her, you know, and then it would be like, you're three minutes back. And I'm like, damn it. I'm not taking this. I'm not letting her get more than four minutes. That's it, you know, and then I'd be there five minutes behind. I'm like, oh. So when Dave Scott gave me a split that I was, you know, like. Like eight minutes back, I remember standing up on my pedals going up the hill and, like, showing him that I'm not taking this lion down. Dave, I'm so pissed, you know, and he took one look at my body language, and he's like, karen, you're doing fine. You got to do your own race. And it was like, duh. Yeah, that's right. Like, I am just beating myself up here with negative thoughts. And, you know, I've still got 40 miles to bike and a marathon. I cannot be in a bad state of mind for this whole thing. I just finally, I was like, okay, let it go. Do your own race. Finish the bike the best you can and have the run of your life. I knew I was in good run shape and so, so I, I'm one of those people that does take in things from outside. Some people are like in the zone and they just get inside their own heads. I'm constantly looking around for inspiration, just perspective changers. I, I remember on the, then the winds, I don't know if it was that same year or not, but there was a Patriot, New England pat, NFL football player that did the Iron Man. And I remember thinking, yeah, I'm so big into the wind, no wonder I'm biking so slow. And I see Darryl Haley who's, you know, he's like 300 pounds, three times as wide as me, and he's biking through the winds. And I was like, oh my God, okay, what are you complaining about? Like, if he could do it, you could do it. Or seeing, you know, Sister Madonna who's, you know, I'm scared on the crosswinds. And then I see her coming the opposite way, this, you know, 80 year old nun whose whole holding our line in these winds. And I'm like, what are you afraid of? You know, you're in your 30s, you're strong. And so I'm constantly looking for outside kind of inspiration, I guess. And, and I found it all the time, you know, so, yeah, that's one of the things I do to kind of help my mental, just, you know, reminding myself how much things can change within a race. And that's what helped me in the Iron Man. Just like, like have the best run of your life. It's, I'm still not immune to pressures, you know, that's one of the hardest thing I think, especially as a pro when you're, you know, finances are on the line, your pride, your expectations from, you know, family, friends, media. And you know, I, I definitely have, I felt in the beginning of my career, felt like I caved under pressure a lot, that the harder I tried, the worse I would do, the more I wanted it in a way. And I had to learn how to kind of get out of my own way a little bit and not fear failing so much. And I think one of the things I learned early on this is when I was trying to qualify for my first world championship team back in 89 when they first announced it. And I remember thinking, that's what I want to do. I want to make the U.S. team for the World Championships. And there were three qualifying races, top two at each one would qualify. And the first two races I went to, I just was terrible. Like the, the more I Tried. It seemed like the further backwards I was going, and I should have been, you know, at least contending, and I was finishing seventh or eighth in those races. And I finally came to the third race, my last chance to qualify. And the same thing happened that always would happen, which is I'd come out in the front in the swim or near the front, and then one by one, people would fly by me on the bike, and I would sometimes just get too far behind to have any chance of catching up on the run. And I remember going through a phase on that bike where, you know, Kirsten Hansen went by me, and she's spinning like this, and I'm like, keep up with her. And I would go to an easier gear and try and keep, you know, the same turnover as her. And I'd be eventually just huffing and puffing and exhausted, and off she would go. And then Jan Ripple came by strong, and she would do like an 75 RPMs, and I'd be like, oh, maybe that's what I have to do. And I go to a heart gear and try and keep up. And, you know, after five minutes, my legs are jelly. I'm like, I can't do this. And off she would go. Anyway, at one point in that bike ride, I was like, you know what? You stink at triathlon. And I was so focused on being top two, you know, that all I could think of was result, result, result. And I was like, like, you are just not good at this. You finish this race the best you can because you're not quit in the middle. You don't do that, but you can get rid of your bike and just be a runner. After this race, I. I completely had decided that's what I was going to do. And so all of a sudden, on the bike, I just, like, stopped counting how far behind I was, how many people had passed me. I finished the bike, started running. I was like, yeah, actually, my legs feel pretty good. It's a good thing I'm going to be a runner now because I like running, you know, And I'm running along. I'm like, oh, good, I can catch a couple people. I caught them. And I'm like, oh, there's another person caught them. And I was like, oh, yeah, this is going pretty well. And all of a sudden, I see up in front this motorcycle next to a girl. I'm like, what's the motorcycle doing in the middle of the run course? And I'm like, wait a minute. The lead vehicle next to Jan Ripple. I can catch the leader I had no idea that I was even doing well. I managed to go up and catch her and win the race and qualify, and I realized, like, the whole thing was me finally not focusing on results. I focused on process. And I think that was a big learning experience for me that, you know, you can't be thinking about your results without concentrating on what you're doing at the moment. You know, I was so worried about not being top two that I forgot to just let myself race, you know, so huge learning experience there, and it really paid off, and I ended up not throwing my bike away.

Good job. I think.

Karen, you were talking about kind of your psychology and your mindset and, you know, just hearing these stories that you're telling now. Over the years, obviously, nutrition has really changed. I was just thinking back to kind of when you first started out in triathlon, especially sort of the. The long distance of the Ironman triathlon as well. Do you think over the years you. You focused or changed your nutrition that might have helped with your performance or your. Even your, you know, your mindset to. To kind of get you to. To where you. Where you got to?

Yeah, well, I. I definitely. That was one of the hardest things for me. I do not have a stomach that likes to eat and race at the same time. I love to eat, but I like to do it sitting down and relaxing, and I like to race, but I like to do it on an empty st. So that's what I really liked about the Olympic distance. I. I could get through it on just water, and. And that was really. As soon as I needed to take in nutrition, it was like this whole other ball game that I could never. You can never replicate it entirely in training, you know, so sometimes what would work in training, I'd get to a race, and I'd be like, oh, God, I thought I could have three gels an hour. And I'm like, whoa. And so I've had so many Ironmans where I've thrown up in the middle of it. And matter of fact, that happened in 96, the year I was trying to defend my, you know, title against Paula, and I was in better shape. And that was the race that I was like, I feel like I can win this year. You know, I was like, bring it on. And then I. The only thing I tried to correct was having that kind of bad phase on the bike that I often would have. And so I was like, I'm going to have a little more nutrition on the bike. Well, it turned out to be too much, and I started the run just with a bloated, bloated stomach. So sick. And finally like aisle three, I came off the bike ahead of them for a change. She was Natasha. When she was first starting out, Natasha Bideman and Paula kind of started the run together. And so they ended up passing me on the run at mile three and I just had to pull over and like vomit so much from my stomach and for the next mile or two, just completely emptied myself out, out. And then I realized, like, oh, God, all right, you're starting from scratch. You got zero nutrition in you and you still have 22 miles to run. And I just knew that, you know, I can build it back. It's not going to be easy. And I gradually got enough in and was able to kind of come back and still finish third. But it was, yeah, the nutrition part of it. I still, yeah, I haven't been racing lately, but it's, it's. It all the way to the end of my kind of ironman career. It was a big mystery to me. I think nowadays there are so many cool things out there that would help me, whether it be the glucose monitors or the, the, the kind of, what's it called, testing you can do where you find out like what you're at what point you switch over to burning more glycogen. And I think if I had been more aware of like being able to train that up and knowing not to go beyond that, that, that I, I would have been much smarter about my racing and training. I tended to, I think, yeah, just sometimes I think I didn't train enough miles to get that aerobic fat burning as high as it could be. And so I think I was often burning just a little more glycogen than I should have. And, and then it would just kind of come back to haunt me. I used to eat Snickers bars, which, you know, hurts. Yeah.

If there was a pick me up because you were talking about, you know, those times where you were getting really irritated with people being, you know, a minute, two minutes.

Yeah, yeah.

Sometimes people have something.

Yeah. Well, I think it was so early on there that I was getting in the negative head. I think it was a little bit more to do with the just, you know, me focusing too much and, and you know, I had other pressures back then. You know, as much as I say, I learned, oh yeah, not to focus, focus, you know, to focus on the moment. But it couldn't help going into Hawaii that year because Paula, now, she was retiring. So I was like, it's my only chance to try and beat her and, you know, if she retires and then I win, it's sort of like, well, yeah, of course you're winning when Paul is not there anymore, you know. And so, and the other big thing was that Paula had won so many times that the TV had covered her over and over and done her life story. And, you know, and they had started to be like, well, we've already done her story. We're just going to have to do more of the men. So they were doing too much of the men because the women's race just wasn't interesting anymore. So I had this burden that I placed on myself to make the women's race at least interesting. If I can't beat her, I should be able to at least keep up and make it a race. And then when she got so far behind or I got so far behind on the bike, I was like, us cameras aren't going to be anywhere near me when I'm eight minutes back. You know, this isn't interesting. So I had put all this weird pressure on myself to, you know, make the women's race. And so there was a lot going on there. But for sure, I have experienced, like, I tell my clients that I coach now. I'm like, if you ever have the urge to cry, like, out of the blue on the bike, take some sugar. Because that is so, like, in training for me. Like, I'm riding along and I, you know, all of a sudden I'm getting dropp and I can't keep up and I get this wave of like, and I'm like, oh, my God, like, I don't cry about almost anything except, you know, watching movies usually. And so if you, if I feel like I'm getting emotional on the bike, it is an absolute sign that I need some calories. So I'm well aware of that. And, but sometimes for me, it's that I've taken in the calories, but my stomach has just stopped emptying. And that happens a lot. And so I, I, I'm like, I know I need calories, so I take more in, but my stomach is just filling and it's not going into my body. And that's usually, you know, I, I, I'm pretty sure I know it's because I'm getting too concentrated, like taking a gel with not enough water or just going too hard or being too hot for this, you know, to be able to get my organs to, you know, cooperate. So it's a question of slowing down, cooling off, drinking more water, all Things that you don't want to do when you're already, you know, eight minutes behind on the bike.

I think so many things have advanced over the years, haven't they, in terms of, you know, you touched on sports science and measuring blood glucose and things. Charlie's a big fan of measuring everything, metrics and anything. You can use a bit of tech.

For exactly measure what matters and anything there's tech is good.

Have you used the glucose monitor better?

No, I haven't, actually. It's one of the things I haven't tried yet. But I, I do think that I keep, I keep questioning whether it's one level of tech be too far for me at the moment. But I do think. I do think it's. It's amazing technology.

Yeah.

But I also think what you're talking about is, which is something you alluded to earlier, which is essentially focusing on controlling the controllables. I know McKeely Jones talked to us about, about that, but that's essentially what you're also saying, isn't it?

It's.

It's focusing on what you can do, not what other people can do. One of the things that. So you obviously coach other athletes. Now you've had, you had a spell in your career where you had a really bad run of injuries, didn't you? There was one that involved a glass window, one that involved a truck. What. Then you had cancer, then it was your collarbone. So, like, for those people that don't know, maybe you can give us a sort of potted store series of the, the events that happened. But I'd really like to know, what do you tell your athletes when they're injured and how do you kind of tell them to get through that? You know, what advice do you now give them based on your experiences?

Yeah, well, I'll start with. I'll try and do a quick summary. I tend to talk on too long these things, but. So with my, my accidents. Yeah, in 1997, I was kind of in, you know, know, time of my career, really 96. I had, you know, thought I was in shape to, to defend my Ironman title and gotten third. And I was, you know, hell bent on coming back in 97 and, and trying to, you know, take the title again. Meanwhile, the Olympics were. We had gotten into the 2000 Olympics, so that was also on my radar screen. And I'd been kind of top American for a long time, seven years straight or something at the Olympic distance. So that was still very much something I thought would be the coolest thing in the world. But in spring of 97, I was supposed to leave the next day to go do a World cup in Monte Carlo. And then I was doing the Ironman Roth race. And so I, some unknown reason, changed a storm window in my house that it was like summertime, oh, you know, getting warmer out. And I was like, why don't we still have a storm window up? I'm taking that down. And it was a big kind of homemade one that we had. I don't know, somehow or other when I was lifting this big window out of the. How we had it installed and when it was over my head, there was a must have been a crack in the glass or something. And all of a sudden it fell out of the frame all around me. And I was like, oh my God. And I put my arm up to block, but one of the shards, one of the shards hit my arm which saved my neck from, you know, I could have died. But so thank. I protected my neck but a shard fell right into the back of my leg as I kind of turned and blocked and it cut through my hamstring. And I was home alone. Managed to call 911 and not luckily it didn't hit an artery or that could have been also life threatening. But in any case, I woke up in the hospital the next day. They had decided that they ought to sew my hamstring back together. So I found myself, they said, yeah, probably a six month, month, six to eight month rehab. And so my husband and I did a little strategizing and decided that a nine month maternity leave was a pretty good layover to make use of that time. So we got quite. Got to work and managed to get me pregnant. And so, and it was, I look back, it was a little bit of a silver lining because, you know, 2000 was four years away. It's like, oh gosh, you know, that's a long time to wait at my age to start a family. And we knew we had wanted to start a family, but it was hard to voluntarily take a break when I was at the top of my career too. So some ways I kind of look back as a blessing. So my daughter was born in 98 and May 1st of 98. And I tried to like, I'm going back to Ironman this year and also got to, you know, get back into the World cup racing. And I started racing within six to eight weeks again, little races and was building my boat way back up to Ironman. And in August was out for a long bike ride and was hit by an 18 wheeler from behind. He didn't run me over, but he. He basically knocked me off the road when he was trying to pass me on a curve where he had no business trying to pass me. And I fell. I broke six ribs, had a lung contusion and broke my collarbone. I was still nursing my daughter at the time. I couldn't even pick her up. I would just sit on the couch like a milking machine. My husband would, like, prop her up with pillows I couldn't lift or anything. Anyway, that was a pretty miserable, sad time and scary because I realized how close I came to, you know, making my daughter motherless. And I think that was probably the closest I've ever come to quitting the sport was that next month when I just debated, is it really fair for me to get back out there when I'm risking my life? And finally decided that the option of quitting is worse. So I was like, I'm just going to be as careful as I can from now on. There's risks with everything. And I think this means too much to me to quit altogether. So after I'd recovered, got back to racing and training in 99 and managed to get back into the top of some World Cups. And right before the iron man In 99, I had some swollen glands and a cough. And I went to the doctor just to see about getting some antibiotics for like, bronchitis. And he. I happened to mention that my throat seemed really thick in the mirror. And he's like, oh, well, that's your thyroid and that is look pretty enlarged. You know what, let's just get an ultrasound of that just to be sure. It's nothing to worry about. And the ultrasound came back that I had nodules and probably had thyroid cancer, which I'm like, what? Like, what's thyroid cancer? What's. What's my thyroid even do? You know, this was like three or four weeks before Iron Man. And I was like, what? Well, what do I do next? And he's like, you have to have a biopsy. And I was like, oh, geez. Like, I've got this Iron man coming up. And you know what? Like, how, how risky is it to, you know, do I need to do something about this right away? And he's like, you know what, it's very slow growing. If you want to just wait and put the biopsy off till after Iron man, you're not risking anything. Like, all right, I think that's what we should do. After talking to my husband and so just managed to kind of compartmentalize do The Iron Man. 99. I was. My daughter was just 18 months, which is, you know, I kind of marveled at Chelsea Scenaros being, you know, a mom and winning Iron man. And I was basically trying to do the same thing, but I. I managed to get second, which I was. I was quite thrilled with coming back from. From the truck and the hamstring and the Cesarian section for my daughter. Lori Bowden passed me on the run that year and set the record by breaking three hours, which I was like, hey, she had to break the record to do to beat me. So that's.

So.

But right after that race, I was very happy. I just had to do this biopsy thing. But I asked, can I do one more race just to solidify my ranking so that I know I can go to Olympic trials next year. I did this race in Mexico, and it was a draft legal Olympic distance. And during the race, a fluke, fluke thing happened. We're in a pack going up a hill. Girl in front of me, her petal unexplained, inexplicably fell out of her crank, like the whole pedal unthreaded as she was climbing a hill. So her foot just went right down to the ground, and she fell. I was right behind her. I fell over top of her, broke my collarbone. And so I go, great. I flew home from Mexico, having to get this biopsy with a broken collarbone. I'm like, well, if I have cancer, I better get taken care of it right away while I'm healing from this collarbone. Turns out I did have the cancer and so had to have my thyroid removed and go through a radiation treatment. Now, after doing some research, I found out that the radiation treatment can kind of knock you for a loop a little bit. And again, they said, you know, once your thyroid's out and it's slow growing, you know, you can put the radiation off till after Olympic trials or maybe even the Olympics, because that was coming up. This was all in November of 99, and the Olympics were in 2000, and the trials were in April and June for the US So I went into the, you know, December just like, okay, I got my work cut out for me, let my collarbone heal, got to be out of the water six weeks and get that my thyroid out, out, recover from that surgery, figure out my thyroid levels. I'd have to take a supplement the rest of my life to replace the hormone that my thyroid normally produces. And I have to say, as much as I was kind of shocked about having cancer, I was so wrapped up in my goal of trying to make an Olympic team that I sort of just cruised through it. I was like, no time to wallow, no time to be scared, no time for anything. I found a few role models online of people that had come back from it and done well, well. And this one rower from Canada in particular had, you know, had the same thing and gone on to set a world record. And I was like, it can be done. That's all I need to know. And I've got my work cut out for me. So I just kind of sailed through that part of my life with this, you know, incredible goal in mind and I ended up giving it my all. But I did not make the Olympic team. But I think I look back now on that and I had the perspective, I was older to know that it sort of gave. The journey gave me so much in terms of overcoming a tough time that that's really, you know, I'm grateful that I had something like that to chase because I think it really, really helped me get through what could have been a pretty depressing, scary time time.

It's amazing how you could. So maybe come back to the question about how do you help how. What do you tell your athletes around injury in a second. But how do you think there's anything that. Was it just that single minded focus on hitting the goal that got you? Because it's quite incredible to be able to go and come second at Kona while in the back of your mind, surely somewhere has got to be be. I think I've got, I'm pretty sure I've got cancer. So how did you. Is there anything that you, you kind of were consciously doing at that point or kind of retrospectively, you know, with the benefit of hindsight that allowed you to.

I think I, because I didn't really. It was, it was a silent, like I was not having thyroid issues, like my levels were perfectly normal. It was these nodules that eventually can turn cancerous that was the problem. So my bronchitis completely, that was a completely separate issue that I'd gone to the doctor for and that resolved. I mean, that probably would have derailed me more than the thyroid. So it was totally mental. And to be honest, I really think I thought there was some sort of mistake. I was like, come on, how can I feel this good and have cancer? And so I think I thought maybe when I get the biopsy, maybe they'll find that, you know, oh, it was a mistake, or that, you know, because you can have nodules, I suppose and not have cancer. But they were like, we're pretty sure you have it. So I think I kind of hung my hat on, like, maybe there's a mistake here, you know, we'll deal with it later. And I think, you know, just knowing that my body was still performing, that I was still feeling good, you know, gave me confidence, I guess. You know, to be honest, it was probably, you know, the juggling child care and you know, and coming back I had had a C section which, you know, kind of does a number on your, on your core strength and stuff. So there were, you know, it that, that race had a lot of unknowns for me because it was my first race back after kind of three things going wrong. So I was really actually thrilled that I was able to, you know, vie for the win. And you always have a little bit of doubts. You always think you're, you know, never, you know, can I ever repeat what I did last race? I don't know. So. But yeah, I think, you know, it comes back to controlling what you can control. I knew at that race, I don't, I, I don't really know how I was able to put it so far out of my mind, but I do remember after I finished that it was like this like shift in my thinking that I was like, oh, I'm so happy I, I got second. That's great. And then all of a sudden this like, I was like, okay, yeah, I might have cancer. Now you're going to have to shift your focus to dealing with that. And yeah, so, I mean, they call thyroid cancer the good cancer. It's kind of an oxymoron. But I did, you know, after reading about it a lot, I knew that, you know, it wasn't one of those things where it's going to be years of chemo, like a radiation therapy. It's usually a one time thing. It does kind of knock you for a loop for a few weeks, but that if all goes well, the cancer is pretty much taken care of. And you know, there were some risks with the surgery. They can like nick your vocal cords. They can. There's definitely some challenges with getting your thyroid levels right after that because you have to replace it with a hormone. And I've actually fielded tons and tons of emails from triathletes and runners and cyclists since I had my surgery or my, you know, treatment, treatment of people that have struggled to get their thyroid levels right. And I was very fortunate that didn't have much trouble. I was able to, you know, the first thing that they all I must not be very sensitive to it because we've also changed my levels over the years and I hardly notice a difference. So. But there's other people that have a real hard time ever feeling normal again. They always feel really tired and yet their blood levels say that they're normal and so the doctor won't give them more and more. And it turns out there's all these little things you can do in terms of using different types of hormone or taking an extra supplement of like a short term hormone as well as the long term hormone to help you feel better during the everyday living. So I, I'm kind of fortunate that that part of it went well for me. And I think reading about it, I just, I tend to be an optimistic person. So I was like, oh yeah, I think I'll be okay, you know, so tell. I guess with coaching my, my, my athletes, you know, I tend to, to be an optimist and I try and encourage them to be one. I often tell them about how, you know, something that sometimes seems like a huge obstacle that set you way back can end up, end up being a silver lining that, you know, with me having my first child, you know, I was like, I don't know if I would have been able to have two kids if I had waited until after making 2000 Olympics, you know, if I'd even made it. But you know, the longer I put it off, the more, less likely it would be that I'd have several kids. You know, so sometimes good can come out of bad and so constantly be looking for finding your silver linings. You know, there's, yeah, and it's a.

It'S a classic case of the. So I heard you talk about on another podcast how, you know, how you fitted in your training with family life and you'd be like, right, I'll run to the track. My daughter will fall asleep while I'm running, then I'll run out the track and then, or I'll run to the game or run while they're doing the warm up for the game. And it's a classic example of that, but just on a bigger scale, isn't it? Right. I'm injured for this period of time, right. It's baby time. And then we can get back to training after baby time and recovery. So it's, yeah, it's brilliant you've alluded to, We've talked, we've touched on the topic of beer here already. But I can't, can't let you go without talking about this some more. When we Interviewed Didi Greasebau. I think she quoted you as saying, win or lose, we drink the booze. Which is a saying that I love.

I think I got that from my husband, to be honest. You know, he's a bar owner and, you know, the. Lots of teams would come in there after their games or whatever. And so that was very much probably an Elliot Lounge saying, well, I'm disappointed.

I didn't visit Elliot Lounge when I was in Boston last year. But next time, you know what, it's.

It'S no longer there, so it closed. So there's an Elliot Hotel and it used to be part of a bar in the base of the downstairs floor of the Elliot Hotel. It's now a shishi restaurant. So that's that. Yeah.

But you did talk also about, I heard you talk about on another podcast, the three to one taper, which now I think I've been doing a version of this, just a less scientific version. So can you tell. Tell Claire all about the three, two, one taper? Because I'm definitely adopting this approach.

Yeah, absolutely. This is basically my, I think, biggest legacy that I'm leaving behind, a triathlon. So I'd written an article one time about tapering for a triathlete magazine and, and you know, with some good advice. And then towards the end I had, I had said, however, the most important part of tapering is that you follow the three, two, one taper plan, which is three beers three nights before the race, two beers two nights before the race, and one beer the night before the race. And it's the perf perfect taper and get you just, you know, completely ready to race. And so, you know, it was somewhat set in, Jess. But to be honest, I, I absolutely guarantee you I have done that exact thing for many, many races. I. My husband says, you didn't do that before Hawaii in 95. And I'm like, Michael, think about it like we were there with all our friends. I, I bet we were pretty close to that. If I know I do generally have a beer the night before my race. It just, it's one of those things that I, I like it not affect me. I sleep perfectly well. If anything, it probably helps me sleep a little better because it relaxes me. And it's just one of those things where I'm like, you know what? I'm doing this to have, like, fun. This is enjoyment for me, this whole sport, and I do not want to take it so seriously that, you know, I feel like any one thing I do is going to ruin my race. I don't want to be living on eggshells, you know, like it's part of my lifestyle and having a beer the night before the race is part of this whole.

So.

But it's very funny because I've had, I still to this day I'll be out, you know, at a race and someone will run by me and be like, yarn Smyers. Three, two, one. Taper. Yeah, I was like, good. My people.

I guess it's kind of carbohydrate loading to a certain degree, isn't it? So.

Yeah, well, I warn people that you have to train for it. Like, you can't just, you know, it's like you only get the taper you deserve. You know, if you're not in shape for the taper, don't try it. And, and some people, you know, are like, I've extended your training to 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. I'm like, good on you.

I think, I definitely think so. I've, I've pretty much always had, I go with a glass of red wine the night before race. But like several people have said, oh, you know, why would you, why would you do that? Like, well, actually it just takes the edge off, right? All of those pre race nerves. And I think you do sleep better.

I mean, I think there are probably some people that, one, if they believe it's going to hurt them, it probably will hurt them. And number two, you know, if they don't drink very often or if they know that from their, you know, data that they do have a terrible night's sleep after having an alcoholic drink, which, you know, I've seen all these posting online about people that are like, oh my God, my hrv. If I've had a drink. And I was like, poor you, because that doesn't happen to me, you know, I don't need a watch to tell me that I know it, you know, So, I mean, yeah, I'm not going to have six beers the night before, but yeah, anyway, so I think, you know, everybody's different and you have to kind of figure out what works for you. But it's the same thing. I mean, with nutrition, like my sister, who's a fantastic amateur triathlete herself, she's four years older than me and she will have a gel like right before she starts racing, no matter what, even a sprint race, whatever. And I, I'm like, like if I did that, I would be so sick during the race. But she knows that that's what she needs. And a lot of people are like that. They'll have something right before they start that I. My stomach could not handle that, you know, under any circumstance. So it's, you know, you just have to figure out what works for you.

Brilliant. And now we. We ask everyone that comes on the podcast for a book recommendation or if not book, then other resource. But is there any. Any particular. Particular books that you found your. Or that you found have had a big impact on you?

Well, it's funny. I just finished. I'm into my elite runner, women's runners phase, and so I have a hard time reading books these days. I just don't find the time to sit down and read. So I find him, like, I'm going for audible and I'll. Sometimes I take my dog out for runs and walks or whatever. And I've been just listening to books, and so I've listened to both Lauren Fleshman's Good for a Girl. Girl. Totally, totally recommend it. Everybody, not just women, everyone would get a kick out of that. And I'm also just finishing Des Linden's book, Choosing to Run, which I've loved. Totally recommend both of those in terms of, like, over the years, books that have, like, had huge, you know, I love the comeback stories, as I've said. So, like a book like Unbroken, you know that story about the runner who. Well, he was a. In World War II. He ended up, you know, crashing or he was in a boat wreck, I think. Yeah. And then he had to swim to an island and then became a pow. And like, oh, my God, that what he went through and then came back to become this incredible runner. That. That story was just out.

I've seen the film of that. I haven't actually.

Oh, the book is a hundred times better. The film. Yeah. Read the book. Yeah, for sure.

Right. All three of those are going on the reading list. They're fantastic. I haven't read any of them.

Oh, yeah, good. You know, like, the boys in the boat. I love reading about different sports. You know, Boys in the Boat is about the. The rowers. I love. I kind of like the description of, like. Like the flow over the water of that when you get a boat that's in sync, like, the descriptions, like, he. Clearly it's a love letter to rowing and just, you know, seeing someone. Someone's passion for a sport like that and like. And of course, I always have admired rowers because they were the only other sport at Princeton that, like, did doubles the way swimmers did. Runners did some. But they worked so hard and, you know, through all this tough conditions. So I always really admired the rowers. So that's another good book.

Brilliant. Thank you very much. That's another one I will add to the list. And we always we, we for this series we've been asking the previous guest guest to ask the next guest a question without knowing who it will be. So you get a question from the Irish runner and pilates and physio and kind of all things that side of things. Owen Everard. I have to get always get his name right. Owen Everard. I think Claire's got the question, haven't you?

I have.

Okay.

So Owen was asking what advice were you given when you were young, younger that you thought was really good but now you disagree with it.

All right, that's a great question. Let's see. Yeah, I guess, let's see. I think that's a hard one. Yeah I guess think of a which.

That I or if you're struggling we could change it to you know what, what bad advice do you hear given or did you receive?

Yeah, I think it's the like you know, no pain, no gain kind of thing where and especially as a coach now that you have to learn to distinguish between good pain and bad pain. There is such a thing as bad pain and I and recognizing that you know especially in training like racing's a little bit different like you, you dig to a, a place where because that's the whole reason you did all the training but in, in, in training I do believe that there's a point where sometimes you just have to be smart and it's not giving up, it's not being weak, it's not being a wimp, it's being smart about your long term development that sometimes times doing one more repeat or ignoring that little nagging pain in your knee or you know there's, there's a point where you can do too much and it's going to cause you more harm than good and it doesn't make you mentally tougher, it makes you actually weaker because you're afraid that not doing that one interval is going to make or break you when if you're strong minded you know that one interval is not going to make or break you and you're, you know that you have to do what your body's capable of on the day day and be smart about your training. So I think you know I, I in college and this is not my coach's fault, it was probably my fault for not spending enough time on sleeping, recovery, staying away from the bar that I was pretty much over trained I think through A lot of my swimming career, a lot of it was that in the weight room like we did weight training. And I respond to that really acutely so that I get really sore and tired from weight training and I need to get rid of it for three to four weeks before I start feeling fresh and strong again. And it's good in the middle of the season. But what happened is I think I just did it too long and I never really felt tapered for our big meets. And so I look back and think just overtraining bothers me because I love racing so much and I don't like training all that much. So overtraining, it's more of a bad thing for no good reason, know, so I'm very careful about that. So I really believe in listening to your body doing the. Just the training that's enough to make you race better and not just doing more training because your, your brain's going to think, oh, I did more than everyone else, so now I'm going to be great. There.

There's a saying that is train hard, race easy. Are you saying actually it should be the other way around? You not train easy, but race hard?

I would say that, but I would say that there's a point of not only diminishing returns, but negative returns. So you train enough to get the desired desired response, and you don't need to do more than that because it's, you know, your chance of overtraining and risk of injury goes up so much. So, you know, and there are, you know, there's some people that get away, away with doing more and more and more and their body somehow responds. But 9 out of 10 people doing too much, they're going to break down and, and not even make it to the start line. So I guess it's, it's, you know, being brave enough to recognize your limits and training and, you know, not end up setting yourself back by doing too much. And, you know, and that means, like, with the people I coach, it's, you know, I don't expect them to go on autopilot when I give them workouts, I'm like, this is shared, you know, like, project here. I don't want to be the only one in charge. Take some ownership of yourself. And, you know, what I'm teaching you is how to read your body signals, how to make decisions, because you're going have to make them on your own in the race. You're not going to have me to tell you all the time. So I really believe in sort of empowering people to take some ownership and not be afraid to listen to what their body's telling them, I guess.

Brilliant. Well, on that note, I think that is great advice. I think on that note we'll wrap up this episode because there's been loads of, loads of brilliant nuggets there. Loads of really useful takeaways, but also some really inspiring stories. So Karen, a huge thank you for coming onto the Tribathlon podcast. It's been absolutely brilliant and I know that it will be inspirational for listeners as well as giving them some tangible takeaways as well.

Yeah, thank you very much for having me.

The best place to find out more About Karen is karensmyers.com or on Instagram. She's Karen Smyers, 8926. So what did you make of the interview with Karen?

It was brilliant. It was really good I think to have, to have an athlete on that has, that has been a professional for so many years and to kind of hear all her stories right from the very beginning, kind of three to three to kind of where she is, where she is now. And there are so many stories or there were so many stories, weren't there?

Well, that's it. It's brilliant. I mean it's so good that we, you know, she's been mentioned by so many other people we've had on the podcast over, over the years that it's brilliant to get her on and listen to those incredible stories and, and the resilience that she showed particularly through the injuries. You know, I was saying to you before we hit record, you know, I'm moaning because I can't run for a week because my tendinopathy is kicked off again. And yet she was having, you know, months and months off with the shard of glass going through a hamstring and then the 18 wheeler truck hitting her and then the cancer and then the collarbone costing of the Olympics essentially. You know, it shows some real resilience to come back after that. I think I quit the sport long before I got that that far.

Absolutely. And, and you know, just the, the opportunities that she had. So during those injuries she then went and had two children which she may not have had, you know, time or space in her, you know, in her career to be able to, to be able to do that as well. And I always find that fascinating about, you know, how professional athletes fit in kind of life around, you know, around their career as an, a career as an athlete, particularly she children.

I mean like obviously we saw it a bit with lockdown with Chelsea Soldaro and, and a few others but you know, and like Meredith Kessler has managed to slot in a few children amongst the racing and you know, come coming back and obviously Jackie Herring as well. Just. Yeah, absolutely incredible.

I think, you know those, I think those stories are also inspiring to other female athletes in particular that actually you can, can. You can do all, all of those things. I thought the other thing that was really interesting she talked about because her career has. Has, you know, started with her swimming which a lot of the. Not a lot. Many of the older endurance athletes that we have interviewed have actually their background had come from swimming which is really interesting like collegiate swimming and. But to hear her talk about her career sort of through the. What was sort of it you at the time and then near the nearly the Olympics actually Ironman Distance was because. Was it because her husband had said he was going to qualify to Kona? Yeah.

But incredible that she could go and do to win Kona and then win the ITU race World Championships two weeks later is absolutely. I think it was two weeks later, wasn't it? It was something like that.

It was really close, wasn't it? I can't remember.

Like absolutely incredible. I think that's, that's mind blowing. I love the, the shout from. I can't even remember who it was it. Her partner in the. Yeah, I think it was her partner that shouted out, you got to want it.

It's like, oh, it was a, it was a coach.

Oh, her coach, wasn't it? That was it.

Yeah.

I thought that's, that's a good term. I like that. I could see it. And the effect there was. There was a number of stories like that that, that kind of just seem to hit the right button for at the right time, isn't it? Because there was. There was Dave Scott shouting, race your own race. Yeah, yeah, that's. That's good advice as well. And it's just the right advice at the right time. But it's also being of the mindset to take on the right advice at the right time, isn't it?

Absolutely. I think it, I think it's really interesting. You know, when you see professionals out there racing, you don't always think about what's going on in their mind. And actually what came through from some of the stories that she told was actually that she sometimes was in a dark place and a dark place actually, you know, as in. In the race where she wasn't having a great day and she talked about some of those times coming back in from Harvey and things on you know, back onto the. The Queen K. That things weren't going particularly well. And. And yet you wouldn't necessarily see that if you were watching. And just how she. How she mentally, over the years, sort of started to deal with some of those things as well.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And she talked about a bit. I've talked about that a bit in that it was focus on the process, wasn't it? Don't worry about, you know, like, Michele used terminology, control the controllables, but hers was focus on the process, which is a similar thing, really. Just, you know, trust the process, focus on that rather than. But I mean, incredible success story. Incredible story of resilience. And. And I definitely am adopting her 3, 2, 1 T paper.

I didn't even know what that was until you. You both started talking about it, but.

I haven't heard it.

I'm sure. I'm sure quite a few people I know actually do that, but they probably don't realize what it's called.

So, yeah, a three, two, one taper. And win or lose, we drink the booze. I'm definitely going to be adopting that.

I think there's probably many people that adopt that one. Yeah, I'm sure there's a lot of listeners who do the 3, 2, 1, though.

I think it's interesting, though, isn't it, because she said, you know, actually this is. We are all doing this for fun. I mean, I, I get it if you're like, she was doing it for fun, but. And, And a living. So at that point, I, I get why you take it, like, absolutely super seriously. But most of us are doing this for fun. And is that one glass of wine the night before the race is gonna make any difference to my time? No, if I actually probably could improve it because I'll probably sleep a little bit better. I'll probably be a little bit more relaxed the evening before it. And, you know, it's just like, yeah, we are all doing it for fun. And I think we do need to remember that even, you know, even when we've got really big goals that we want to hit, whether it's getting to Kona, whether it's winning Kona, whatever it is, it ultimately we're doing this for fun.

And. And I think it's about doing. Doing your. You know, we talk about focus on the process, but, you know, racing your own race. And I think we can quite easily be led by other people about what they're doing, you know, in a race situation. And actually, Karen touched on that in terms of. She was Like, I never took a jail before the beginning, but lots of people were doing that, but that's something that I couldn't do. And actually, I think for some people, you know, maybe they feel that a glass of wine or a beer is actually really does help them maybe psychologically or whatever it might be, but actually to. To stick to your plan, to stick to what works for you as well, I think is. Is really important, but absolutely, it is about having fun, isn't it? And I think sometimes we get a bit too serious about it in terms of.

Yeah, yeah. And in fact, so I. I've had this going around in my mind because I'm still trying to pick my second big race for the year, and I narrowed it down to three. I'd got Chattanooga in Tennessee. Would be. Would be a great race. I'm sure that's a great race, but it doesn't. It's not like one that I would have known about a year ago or two years or two years ago. It's not a race. That's like an iconic race. Then there's Barcelona, which is a very fast, you know, very famous race for lots of drafting. I'm kind of like, I'm sure that's a great race as well, but it doesn't really inspire me massively.

Yeah.

Or the third one, South Korea. Now that sounds like a cool place. That would be an adventure.

Yeah.

So whether it's the quite the right race for me or not, I'm not sure. But it looks beautiful. Never been South Korea. And I think, you know what, that would be an awesome experience. So. Yeah, it isn't just about the race. It's also about enjoying the experience.

Yeah, no, absolutely, absolutely. But she was. She was, was. She was fascinating to listen to. And I just think there's. There's so many. There's so many kind of parts aren't there, to all the stories she had as well. So it was. It was great to. It was great to listen to her, actually.

So, yeah, it was. She made our job very easy, didn't she?

Absolutely. Yeah.

Brilliant. Well, good luck with your training and thank you. And for everyone else, keep on training. If you like what we do at the Tribathlon podcast, you've got to register for TribeTalk. It's an email that comes out every two weeks, packed full of everything to do with swim, bike and run, but also nutritional help, business coaching, and a whole lot more. Whether that's books, videos, TED talks, apps or technologies, it's packed full of ideas that can help improve your sport, your life and your business. So register for it@tribathlon.com and you'll be sure that every two weeks your inbox is full of some amazing ideas and resources to improve your life. If you enjoyed this podcast, please do review it and share it because it helps other people find what we think is really valuable, valuable learning lessons from amazing athletes. So please do that. You can also find the whole back catalog@tribathlon.com and you can also find out about the Tribe Athlon app, which helps people find events, find people to train with and enjoy their events through their tribe. So check out tribathlon.com sa.