Ultra Achievements with Beth Pascall

Foreign. Athlon podcast, finding out how ordinary people do extraordinary things.

Psychologically, it's useful to do, you know, one or two really long training runs, but physically I don't think it's necessary.

That was Beth Pascal and this episode is ultra achievements. So in this episode of the Tribathlon podcast, I got the opportunity to interview Beth Pascal, the incredible ultra runner. So Beth has just got the most amazing success story when it comes to running sort of 100 mile plus races. She was fifth in UTMB. If you don't know what that is, you need to listen to this podcast to find out. She's fourth in Western states, which is just incredible. These are two probably the two top ultra races in the world. And she's done some incredible challenges as well, including a fastest known time on the Cape Roth trail, which we'll talk about. She took a huge chunk off of that time with Damien Hall. And also since I recorded this interview and you'll pick up that I asked her about the Bob Graham round, she declined, saying, well, you know, it might happen at some point. Literally two weeks after I interviewed her, she went and set a fastest known female time on the Bob Graham round, which is 14 hours and 34 minutes. So a huge congratulations to Beth, which I didn't get the opportunity to say at the time because obviously it hadn't happened then. But that's why we don't talk about the Bob Graham Round so much on this interview. But Beth has got this incredible success story in the world of ultrarunning. But what I really wanted to understand was what does it take to run 100 miles? You know, if you can run a marathon, can you run 100 miles? And what, what sort of training do you need to do to be able to run 100 miles? So I really wanted to drill down into that. So it's a fascinating conversation. Beth is just phenomenally successful, but also generous in terms of sharing what she's learned. So I'm sure you will enjoy the conversation as much as I enjoyed chatting to Beth. This episode is brought to you by Lucky Saint Alcohol Free Beer. Now, I drink a lot of alcohol free beer. I discovered it originally after a 142 mile ride through the Welsh mountains on a really hot day. And it's just such a refreshing drink to have after a long ride. But you don't generally want alcohol at that point. So over the years I've tried most of the alcohol free beers I can find and my absolute favorite is Lucky Saint. The branding looks brilliant, the bottle looks fantastic.

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So welcome to the Tria Bathlon podcast. Thank you so much, Beth for agreeing to come on here and I'm so looking forward to finding out more about you. But before we dive into some of the sort of the techniques that have got you to where you are at the moment. Do you want to tell people, for those that aren't into the ultra running scene, can you tell people a little bit about your story, how you got to where you are now, and a little bit about what you're doing in your ultrarunning scene?

Sure. Well, first of all, thanks for having me on. It's a pleasure to be here. Yeah. So I'm an ultra runner and I kind of specialize in long distance mountain ultras. So kind of a hundred miles is my distance really. I started running. Well, I started running ultras about five years ago but I've kind of come from a background where I have always run a bit and growing up, I grew up on a farm and I was always kind of running around chasing animals and I think when I started doing athletics and cross country at school I was immediately quite good at it from, from that point of view, but I was nothing particularly special and I went to university and I was a lightweight rower actually and I started running again when, when I wasn't able to keep up the rowing to fit around my, my work basically. So I quit rowing and started running just because it was the easiest thing to do to fit around a busy schedule. So I ran for a few years but didn't really, didn't really take it very seriously at all. I just run a few times a week and then yes, it was about five or six years ago that I, I think I read a few books as lots of people do and kind of discovered the sport of ultrarunning and thought that sounds really cool. And I, yeah, I was just really curious to see whether, you know, running such distances was possible and I had no intention of becoming good at it. I didn't think I would be good at it, but I was just curious to find out whether running 100 miles was possible. And I started doing a few races and I found that I was surprisingly okay at it.

I think that's about the underestimation of the century though, isn't it? Did you win your first ultra? Am I right in saying.

I think I did? I think I did. But it was, it was, it was not a big deal in any way as in there were very few female participants and it certainly wasn't like I did it and are suddenly amazing. Like yeah, I think the first few ultras I did, you know, the depth of field wasn't really there so it wasn't really a big deal. But yeah, I was still excited by the fact that I could win races and that kind of drove me to take it to the next level, I suppose.

And you had a pretty incredible 2019, didn't you? I might get these two the wrong way around but did you become.

Fourth.

Or fifth in Western states and then fourth, was it fifth in UTMB, is that right?

Yes, fourth at Western states, fifth at UTMB? Yes. Yeah, it was good year and for.

The, you know, for those people that don't know ultras. And I'm only just starting to scrape the surface of ultras, but those are the two races to really do well in, as far as I can see. I mean, Western states is. Do you want to tell us about those two races?

Yes. So, yes, to me they are the biggest and most exciting races in the world and that's why I wanted to do them. And yeah, yeah, I guess arguably the most competitive races. So, so that's a big, a big drive for me.

And they both. Are they both hundred miles or. You know, tell us a little bit about what those, what those races look like and also how they differ because essentially one is the top race in the States, isn't it? And one is the top race in Europe.

Yes. So Western states is the oldest 100 mile race in the world, I think certainly in the US And I'll get this wrong, but it started, it was back in the 1970s, I think it was originally run as a horse race. And on one occasion a guy called Gordy Ainslie, his horse went lame, so he decided to run the race and ended up finishing in the, in the time cut off. And. And that was the birth of Western states endurance run. And since then it's been run as a foot race. So it's a hundred miles in California. It's famous for being very, very hot. So you run through a series of canyons throughout the race and it can get up to 50 degrees C in these canyons. So yeah, it's notoriously hot, but it's actually quite a fast runnable 100 miler. It does have a lot of climb in it, but. But by European standards, it's a fast runnable 100. And then in contrast, UTMB is a lap of Mont Blanc, basically. And it is, it's a, I can't remember, 107 miles or so has much more climb in it than Western states. It takes a lot longer to run because it's got more elevation in it and it's slightly more technical and goes over a series of high. A series of high mountain passes in a. Yeah, in a lap of Mont Blanc, essentially. And again, as you correctly said, it certainly is the most prestigious 100 miler in Europe and yeah, always draws, you know, a really competitive field.

I mean, having skied around Chamonix, which is where UTMB starts, doesn't it? I can't get my head around how you're running at the moment. I can't get my head around how you're running 100 miles, but to run 100 miles on those sorts of terrain I just think is absolutely incredible. So, and I want to talk to you about that because how did you, you know, what was, what sort of distances were you running before you decided to try ultras? And then how did you get up to running 100 miles for the first time?

I think it's always going to be a big jump because you just can't run long distances in training. Um, it's just not, you just end up, you know, wearing yourself out so much that, you know, it's just not good training. So yeah, I think it was, I think my First Ultra was 40 miles long and it took, I don't remember, but I'm gonna guess it was around eight or nine hours. And I think I'd only run for about three hours. Three hours was probably about the longest. Three or four hours was the longest I'd run before that. And yet as I said, you can never completely prepare yourself for what it's gonna be like to run an ultra. There's always going to be a big unknown there. Similarly, running, running 100 miles, I think I had done some really long training runs, but now looking back that probably wasn't the greatest thing to do. But I thought, I thought to run 100 miles you needed to do a series of 10 hour training runs. Which, which I did. Um, but I don't think it's necessary. So yeah, it's always going to be, you know, you, if a race is, if you're running a marathon, you might run 20 miles in training and the final six miles is the unknown. But if you're running a 100 miles, you know you're not going to run 80 miles in training. So. So yes, I think probably, yeah, I'd probably run about 30 or 40 miles in preparation for running 100, but that is, that is not the norm and not what you need to do.

So if you were going to start that journey again, knowing what you know now, he said, right, I'm going to, I do want to run my first hundred miler. What would your longest run be in preparation for that?

I think it's useful to do a race in preparation. So certainly if you're just going to dive straight into 100 miles, I don't think you need to particularly run physically. You don't really need to run more than 30 miles or so. But sometimes if you, it's more of a mental thing and it's really daunting running 100 miles. If you've never run more than 30 miles before. So I think a lot of people benefit from running a race in preparation, say 50 miles or 100k or something just so they, not that they physically need that but just as an added bit of reassurance to say, well you know, I can run 100k so I only have to run a, you know, another 30 or 40 miles or so and that's. It doesn't seem quite so daunting. Psychologically it's useful to do, you know, one or two really long training runs but physically I don't think it's necessary.

I think that's it, isn't it? I think it's those mental barriers that you know, I was told for my training up to my ironman, you actually you're better off not running a marathon in your training. But I knew I couldn't get off the bike having just cycled 112 miles and then have to run further than I'd ever run in my entire life. So I knew I had to mentally have a marathon there. But it strikes me that with endurance sport so much of it is a mental game as opposed to a physical game. And I would have thought with ultra running that's got to be even more so I suppose the longer you go. What mental, what psychological techniques did you use in the early days or have you learned to use now to kind of get you through those dark moments?

I think you just have to break the race up because if you, yeah, if you're, you know, if you start off running 100 miles and you're looking at your watch on your, you know, counting down the miles to go, that yeah, you just can't get your head around it. So I would always, yeah, break up the race in a convenient way. So you know, between checkpoints or I always like to break up, break a hundred mile race into thirds actually. So the first third, the middle third and the final third. Um, and I think about different things in each third of the race. Um, and yeah, I'm certainly not thinking about the finish in the first third. So, so in the first at the beginning of the race then I'm, all I'm thinking is that take it easy, look after yourself and get to that, that a third of the way through feeling as good as possible and then, and then I start to think about the middle third and I think I'm still taking it easy, I'm still really looking after myself but I perhaps start to build a little bit, start to work a little bit harder and I won't say, you know, push harder and run fast because in reality you're never gonna finish a hundred mile race running faster than the first, the first section, but you're trying to slow down less so kind of building a little bit and then the final third, then I think about it as a race. So I'll start to push on and I'll kind of get, yeah, start to be more competitive and take more, take more notice of the other people around me and things. And, and yeah, it's that final third which is the actual race, but prior to that it's just, you know, just looking after yourself. So yeah, certainly break it down into chunks would be my advice.

And I think so. When I did my, both my marathon and my. I still do for everything longer than about 15 mile run, I do a run, walk, run strategy which mentally I think is as powerful as it is physically because of exactly, exactly that reason. You're chunking it down. Do you, would you describe what you do in UTMB and Western State as run, walk, run or are you just trying to run all at a consistent pace throughout? You know, how do you approach those races?

Um, so there is hiking, there is walking involved, certainly. Um, but so all the races I do are mountain races. So a lot of the time you're power hiking on the climbs and then running the rest of the running, you know, the flats and the downhills. So it's not, I don't really have a run, walk, run strategy but certainly it's more efficient to power hike the climbs. So it's the pace, the, you know, it's kind of, it's completely dictated by the, by the gradient, I would say. Um, and you know, even the best men will be power hiking the climbs on UTMB because it's just not efficient to run. But yeah, I would run the rest of the race, I suppose. But yeah, I can understand that. If you're running a flatter ultra, then a run, walk, run strategy would, yeah, would, would work for sure.

But that's not something you attack you personally, tactically employ it. You expect to run every bit that isn't a climb. Is that right?

Yes, yes. Now I would, yes, I think, I.

Mean that's to me sounds, you know, absolutely incredible. The idea of running, you know, everything other than the uphill for 100 miles. I mean, because I watched your wrath, which I'm going to come on to and talk about in a bit. The terrain there was really tough. So there was obviously quite a lot.

Of walking or yes, there was wading.

Through that, but again with that. So. But that's just the norm. You just, you're just kind of getting on and running the whole time, if you can.

Yes, but I mean with rafts that was longer and as you said, the terrain was much slower. So certainly there was more walking. But again it was completely dictated by the terrain at the time. Rather than having a run, walk, run strategy, it was like we can run here, so we will, but here we have, you know, several miles of bog and heather and rocks and it's just not, it's impossible to run. I couldn't even run here when I was feeling fresh. So, you know, you're completely dictated by the terrain.

But I will come back to Ralph because I thought it was a brilliant documentary and it's a beautiful part of the world. So with UTMB and with western states you've done incredibly well. You kind of achieved quite a lot beyond, I think there was a ranking, wasn't there before western states and you weren't considered to be with a reasonable shout and you did incredibly well. And then with the, with utmb you actually weren't feeling very well through most of that, were you? So you obviously had an incredible year last year. You know, are there any things that you would put that down to?

I think it's about experience and consistency of training over a long period of time. So it's not like I suddenly started doing something different last year and suddenly I got better. It was, yeah, just cumulative years of good quality, consistent training and just experience at running a hundred mile races. So I think it's something that I'd kind of gradually built up to. And it wasn't, it wasn't like a sudden, I didn't have a breakthrough last year or anything. It was, you know, I think the year before I'd actually come fourth at utmb. So yeah, it was nothing special. I think I just had just gradually worked my way up to kind of running at that level. I would say. So yeah, I didn't really change anything in particular.

But did you change, I think because western states is a kind of, is more of a running more running and less technical. Was your training different for that?

Yes, it was for sure. Yeah. So yeah, I was training specifically for that race. So. So when I'm doing my, my long training runs, I always try and do them on a terrain as specific as possible to the race that I'm doing. So I try and I work out how many meters of elevation per hour that I'll be running during the race and then train Try and find a training route that kind of matches that and I'll try and train on similar terrain in terms of technicality and things like that. So for sure I keep it as specific as possible. So for Western states, yeah, it was a lot less running in the mountains and probably running that I would say is more boring in the uk, sort of. Yeah. Faster training runs on less exciting terrain. But yeah, for sure it paid off anyway.

But I remember listening to you say about how you found the road running not boring. I don't think you described it as. But more boring than getting out on the trails. And so do you tend to. Would your preferred training, because you live fairly near the Peak District, don't you?

Yes.

Is that your preferred type of running is going off on the trails around the Peak District? Is that what you'd normally be doing?

Yes, absolutely, yes. And do. It's not like I don't. I enjoy all types of running, you know. But yeah, that's why I do the sport is those. Those long training runs in the mountains. So I. I travel to the lakes and Snowdonia quite a lot as well. And yeah, that's. That's absolutely why I do it. So I really love. I really love my long, specific training runs in the hills.

And so just for those people, again, that aren't aware that the rough documentary was based on you going up the west coast of Scotland. Now remind me what the trail was called. Would you want to tell people about Rath and the experience there?

Sure. So the trail is called the Cape Rath Trail. So it's about 450 kilometres from Fort William up to the furthest, most northwesterly point of Scotland, Scotland, Cape Wrath. And we ran it there was myself and a friend, Damien hall, and we ran it in winter and we ran it in winter because. Really. Well, partly to make it more exciting and more of an adventure and partly because it was kind of the off season. So in the summer we're both really busy racing, so that was another reason to do it in the winter. And we went with the aim of setting a fastest known time on the trail, which we achieved.

By a margin as well, didn't you?

By quite a margin, yes.

Did you manage to go? It was previously seven days down to four days. Something along those lines, wasn't it?

Yes, yes, yes.

Which is amazing.

Yes. But I have no doubt that someone else is going to come and run it a lot faster in the summer. I mean, the trail is notoriously tough in that actually there isn't a trail a lot of the way. So you're spending a lot of time navigating through completely empty wilderness, you know, through bogs and over Rocky Mountains and which, you know, there's no trail in sight for miles and miles and miles. And it's. Yeah, it's very, very remote out there. And in the winter, obviously, the conditions can be really, really tough. So, yeah, so that's what we did. And I think another. It was really exciting because we both, you know, have been running for a long time and we both, you know, regularly run 100 mile races. And for us, you know, when we're, when we're racing these days, it's all about trying to win or place as high up as possible. And this was different in that we generally didn't know whether we could do it or not. And the main reason for that is there is a series of river crossings throughout the trail. And when the rivers are in spate, then you can't cross. So there's a real possibility we weren't going to complete it because we couldn't cross the rivers. So, yes, you know, rivers can rise. If the rivers are in spate, they can rise to over 2 meters pretty quickly. So there was a lot of risk involved and we genuinely didn't know whether we're going to make it to Cape Wrath. So that kind of added an element of excitement to it as well.

I really enjoy. So I watched this with my family last night and. Which is available on Vimeo, isn't it? I hadn't really kind of thought through what I was going to be watching, but I used to go up to the Lochinva area for Duke of Edinburgh award expeditions. And then later on when I was assessing Duke of Edinburgh. And so that whole stretch of coastline is just absolutely stunning, isn't it? So it was fantastic. I'm not sure that my daughters were keen to hear that their future Duke of Edinburgh expeditions would be up in.

That part of the world.

I think it scared them somewhat. But it is an absolutely incredible part of the world, isn't it?

Yeah, it's amazing. And you don't realize that the places like that that exist in the uk, you know, that is just so far from anywhere. It's amazing.

Yeah, well, I said, you know, as we were watching the footage last night going, you know, if this was New Zealand, we'd all be saying, oh, isn't this scenery absolutely spectacular? But because it's part of Great Britain, we almost take it for granted a little bit, don't we? But it is, it is properly barren up There. And so one of the things that intrigued me about that was how much or how little sleep you get on these races. And so, I mean, how long. So of those four days, what total amount of sleep did you get during the ROTH challenge?

Oh, I can't exactly remember now, but not very much.

I think we had like two, three hour chunks, maybe once a day or something like that.

Well, the first two nights we slept minimal, so we didn't sleep at all for the first night. And then we had maybe an hour or so the second night. And then the last couple nights we perhaps had two hours, something like that. But we did have a series of what we call micro sleeps along the way. So if you suddenly would feel, you know, overwhelmed with tiredness, like we could just fall asleep on our feet and then we would just drop to the floor, maybe not even take our bag off and just close our eyes for a few minutes, you know, and you'd wake up because you're cold and then you'd get up and carry on running again. And they were actually surprisingly refreshing. So it doesn't have to be a proper, a proper sleep, but just a few minutes here and there really helped. And because it was dark most of the time, so dark, 16 hours a day. The sleep was. Yeah, it was challenging. It was challenging. I think such thing in the summer would be much easier because of the light. But yeah, we spent. Well, I certainly spent a lot of the time, yeah, just trying, desperately trying to stay awake on my feet.

There's a couple of moments in the video where you can see that you're. You're almost kind of slightly dazed, you know, because of the end, because of a lack of sleep. But is there a way that you prepare for that little amount of sleep? Is there anything you do beforehand?

No, I wouldn't say so. I think, you know, I don't think training for lack of sleep is something that is a good thing to do in any circumstance. Although, I mean, I freak. So I'm a doctor, so I have worked shifts all my working life, so I frequently, you know, miss out on night's sleep and things. And I'm. I guess I'm used to dealing with sleep deprivation so. Well now, for example, I apologize if I'm a bit dazed because I've just finished a set of night shifts and I've only just had a brief nap before waking up and speaking to you. So, yeah, I think like, sleep, like extreme sleep deprivation is something that I'm kind of used to doing with. I don't think you get better at it. But. But yeah, and certainly I don't think you can train for it. But yeah, it's not a thing that I hadn't dealt with before.

No.

Okay.

And what about. So one of the things that they talk about quite a lot linked to ultra running is this, is the concept of hallucinating your runs. Is that something that, I mean, certainly if you read Arahan's, Finn's books, there's quite a lot of talk of that. And the same with vassals. Alexander, is that something you experience when you're on these longer runs?

I have never hallucinated. No, no, I haven't have to say. But yeah, you're right, you hear, you know, it happens to most people, but for some reason it hasn't happened to me. No.

And because some of the ultras actually, they start in the evening and go through the night almost with a view to encouraging you to hallucinate, don't they?

I think it's. That's more. I don't think they're encouraging you to hallucinate. I think the races start when they're thinking about the race start time, then they're thinking more than anything about when the winners are going to finish. So for all these big races, they want the winners to come in at kind of a really good time. So maybe a late afternoon or something like that. So it's all planned around that rather than actively wanting you to suffer.

I definitely read one book where they were saying, I'm sure that's part of the reason, but you're probably right, it's probably a more logistical age to finish a good time. And what about. So when you were doing the Roth challenge, I mean, your feet would have been. I remember you mentioning that your feet were wet for quite a lot of the time, weren't they? Did that mean that you ended up with really bad blisters and you know, because running 100 miles and even further, you know, 200 plus miles seems to me like blisters territory. Is that something that you struggle with or not really?

No, I didn't struggle with that. But you're right. Yeah, our feet were wet for four days and we didn't change our socks at all. We just had wet feet. And no, I didn't get blisters. And I think it's just because my. I think just from years and years of running, you know, my feet are just really, really tough. So certainly if, you know, you couldn't get anyone to run for four days with feet without, you know, they would Definitely get blisters. But, yeah, I think it's just tough feat from lots of years of running.

And do you put that down to any particular footwear, you know, whether you're running Roth or something else? Do you have a particular. Are there particular brands or particular types of shoes that you think have worked really well for you?

Yes, so I run for brand. I'm sponsored by Salomon, so I always wear Salomon shoes. And this isn't a plug. Like, I run for Salomon because I like their shoes rather than I wear their shoes because I run for them. So they're the shoes that work best for me. And, yeah, I always wear shoes from their S Lab range and they are fantastic. And, you know, I know that I can wear any of the shoes in that range and I'll do well, so. So that's what I go for. But it's a very individual thing because.

One of the pieces of advice I remember reading was actually run with two different brands of shoes, so your feet kind of get used to different shapes. That's obviously not something that you do. You just stick to Salomon all the way, do you?

I do, yeah, I do. I mean, I wear different types of shoes from Salomon, so, yeah, I don't run in the same shoes all the time, but. But, yeah, no, I stick to. Yeah, similar, I would say. Yeah. And that's, you know, it's worked for me so far.

Well, it's obviously working extremely well for you. And what do you think your sporting highlight so far has been? You obviously have, you know, this amazing challenge, you've done, these amazing races and we've actually only mentioned a couple of the races, haven't you? That incredible one in South Africa, I think, didn't you? And Dragons back and things like that. What do you think your sporting highlight has been so far?

For me, I think it's been Western states and, yeah, it's just. It's just such a cool race. I like the way that it's actually a very small race. They're restricted by the number of people who can enter. And if you apply through the lottery, it takes nine or 10 years to get in. So it feels like a real privilege to be able to run that race. And everyone there, with the exception of a few elites, has, you know, been like their lifetime ambition to get into the race. And it's. Yes, it's a small community and it just feels really, really special. So, yeah, absolutely. Western states has been my favourite experience so far.

Brilliant. And because you finished in the top 10. Am I right in saying that means you, you're now invited back again next year?

Yes. So the race would have been on Saturday actually. Of course, yes, but yeah, so next year it'll be next year.

And are you gonna, are you planning to do that again next year?

Yeah, absolutely, yeah, sure.

And utmb, that would have been what, a month or so time, is that right?

Yeah, end of August, so a couple of months.

A couple of months. And I'm assuming is that already cancelled for this year or is that potentially.

That's cancelled yet. So, so, yep.

Do you think you'll do UTMB again next year as well?

I hope so, yes. That's the plan I'm planning to. Yeah, all my this year's plans are being transferred to next year, so I hope to 2020 will be 21 instead, but hopefully it should all work out.

Brilliant because it's not. Some of the podcasts that I was listening to where they interviewed you, they were, they were saying that it's not really a massive time period between western states and UTMB and potentially, you know, some would argue not enough time for recovery. Although it didn't seem to impact you. What are your tricks to successful recovery?

I don't really have any tricks. I think my recovery is probably suboptimal, to be honest. But yeah, certainly I think if you've got two races close together, recovery has to be prioritized rather than training for the next race. So yeah, recovery is the most important thing. So Western states and UTMB are two months apart. So I would spend a good two or three weeks taking really easy after western states and make sure I was fully recovered before doing any specific training for utmb. And even though the specific training is really important because they're different races, recovery is even more important than.

Are you measuring all of this using training peaks or something like this and your fatigue levels or is it. Do you go more on feel?

Yeah, absolutely on feel. I don't use any technology for that, but I kind of have like go to sessions that I know are a test of my recovery. So. So for example, usually a couple of weeks after a big race I will do a two hour moderate pace run. So moderate pace being comfortably hard. So not easy, but not flat out, but comfortably hard. And if I can run for two hours at moderate intensity and feel fine at the end, then I know I'm ready to, to jump back into a training block again. But if I, if I struggle then I know I need more time.

I think that's A fantastic way of doing it, I think so. Do you tend to work more with a lot of your training areas on feel as opposed to using things like technology? Is feel mostly how you train?

Yeah, I do all my training on feel so I don't use heart rate or anything like that or any other technology. It's all on feel. Yeah, sorry, go on. No, no, no, it's fine.

As I say, spending more time talking to triathletes, that's quite unusual, I would say, in that triathlons vary with the exceptions of people like Chrissie Wellington who did tend to train more on field than data. Most people seem to be very data centric. So is that something that's normal across the ultra running world or are you just the exception to the rule?

I think it's prob. It's not normal. But I would say there are more people that train on, in, on feel in ultra running than say marathon running. I would say just because you, I mean you can never run at a specific pace in trail running or mountain running because the terrain is so variable and the gradients are so variable. So I think you, you get used to running on feel a bit more. Certainly there's lots of people who use heart rate and I think to some extent it comes with experience. So if you're a, you know, if you're just starting out running ultras and things and you have a tendency to go off too fast and you don't really know how fast you need to start a race at to be able to finish it, you know, not crash and burn halfway through. And sometimes heart rate can be useful, useful to stop you going too fast and things. But yeah, I think it's much easier to train on feel when you, you gradually get more experienced, I would say. So I know you know what pace. If I'm going to run for three hours, you know, if I was on running on the flat at a certain, a certain pace, I know what that feels like and I know what it feels like to run for a pace that I can sustain for 100 miles. But yeah, it takes time, I think.

So would you, when you, when you're racing, would you be. Have you, you still got a Garmin on your wrist or is it. Are you genuinely just, you know, 100% on feel?

I do wear a watch yet and, but that's mainly to look at the mileage and the climb. So if I know that you know a climb at UTMB, I know the summit's at 2,600 meters, then I can say I'm at 2,300 meters, so I'm nearly there. Or, or I know it's, you know, 10 miles to the next checkpoint and, and I'm running out of water and I can see I've done eight miles or something. So it's more, you know, for really, really basic, basic stuff. Yeah, but, but certainly not for heart rate or anything.

And is that, does that help you from a mental point of view as well in terms of that chunking races down and not then kind of fretting too much about maybe the distance or. Because you're not, you're not just, you know, kind of engaging in it that much.

Yeah, sure, yeah. And I think it's, and a lot of the time you can't, you don't know the course that you're running so, so if you don't, you know, if you're not familiar with the route and things, I think it's really important to know, you know, how far you've been and how far you've got to go just so you can, from a practical point of view, so you can manage your nutrition and fluids and things like that as well. So yeah, I find it helpful, but certainly probably now for utmb. I've run it so many times that I wouldn't need to wear a watch, but I do anyway.

And you mentioned nutrition. That was where I was going to go next anyway, which is. So how do you, how do you fuel for an ultra race? And am I right in saying you're vegetarian? Yes, because I remember reading your blog about. You did, did you do a vegan race and you were quite intrigued by whole vegan approach to racing at that point. But were you a vegetarian at that point or is it, is vegetarian a more recent thing?

I have been vegetarian with the exception of a few months. I won't go into details but for probably, yeah, most of the last decade I actually, I mean I'm not vegan but I do, you know, 90% of what I eat is plant based so you know, we don't have dairy or things at home. But I won't completely avoid it if I'm, if, you know, I don't, I'm not strict with that. And we have chickens so I eat eggs as well. So I'm certainly not a vegan. But yeah, but most of what I eat is plant based. So doing this vegan race, it's called the Welsh vegan 3000s, was not something, was not something new but, but yeah, it was still amazing how tasty the.

Food was there Yeah, I remember reading about it. You were kind of surprised how good the food was, I think was. Which was why when I read it, I wasn't sure that you weren't traditionally a meat eater. But then I picked up all from Ruth that you were. That you were vegetarian.

But.

So how would, how would fueling, you know, what would fueling before the race look like and how do you feel during the race?

So nothing special really. Before I would just, you know, complex carbohydrates, I would say. So before a big race I'll, I'll, I will start to increase my carbohydrate, I would say content of food but not kind of volume of carbohydrates. So. So, yeah, I wouldn't eat. I don't go in for carbo loading or anything, but I just make sure I'd pick some things that had a slightly higher carbohydrate content and less fiber and things about. I'll start that about 36 hours before the race and I'd make sure I wouldn't. My last big meal would be, you know, a good, a good 12 hours before, I would say. So you're not filling your stomach just before the race and then you're more likely to have stomach issues and things. Um, so, yeah, nothing fancy there. And then during the race it's, it's all about, again, it's all about carbohydrates. So I aim to take between 60 and 90 grams of carbohydrate per hour. And, and I, I'm really good at eating. Sometimes I can take more than that. And I honestly think that it's. One of the reasons I've done well at long races is that I can tolerate, you know, up to 90 grams of carbohydrates, carbohydrate per hour for a good, you know, 20 or 30 hours.

And I've heard you describe it as ultra eating as opposed to ultra running.

Sure, absolutely. So, yeah, and again, I think it's partly, I'm just lucky that I'm good at it, but also partly training to eat that much. So you can't just. If you're doing your first ultra and you haven't practiced your nutrition and practice eating the same quantities of carbohydrate as you plan to consume in a race whilst running the same intensity as you'll be running in the race, then you, you're likely to run into trouble. So, yeah, so training for it is really important. And I, I tend to, I use a brand of gel called Spring Energy, so they're they're different from your standard maltodextrin based gels. They're all made that mainly rice based, so they're kind of pureed rice with, with some fruit in general in a variety of flavors. So you've got more complex carbohydrate there. So I find that I don't get, you know, big energy dips and troughs. I find I have really constant energy levels just taking three or four of these gels an hour with the addition of some solid food at checkpoints if it's available. And that's, that's what I do. Yeah.

So how are you able to forgive my ignorance, but that sounds like an awful lot of gels to carry over the course of 100 mile race. Are you able to pick some up? Are you able to leave your own gels at aid station so that you know that you've got that same brand there each time or how does it work?

Yeah, so sometimes you have drop. It depends on the race. Sometimes you have drop bags at races where you can, you can drop them there in advance. I'm lucky enough to have a very supportive boyfriend who often comes out to my races, um, and will crew for me. So meet me at checkpoints throughout the race and that is, that's really key. That's really important. Um, for sure.

And you, and, but you don't, and you don't tend to get any stomach problems from just eating almost exclusively gels through for that period of time?

No, but as I said, they're not your standard gels. They're different. Certainly if I, if I took, you know, your standard sugary maltodextrin gels, I would find that I would stop being able to tolerate them. And also I would. Even if I was taking enough, what I found was even if I was taking three or four an hour of kind of standard gels, I would still get big energy dips and things. So yeah, I think some complex carbohydrate is really important and you know, this is just what I do. But you know, there are lots of other ways of doing it and I think the, you know, the real focus is it grams of carbohydrate per hour. And it doesn't really matter what sources you're getting that from. That's a personal thing.

Well, I heard, I heard you talk about these spring gels and I worked out in recent years that maltodextrin is not something that agrees with me very much. But so I ordered some, but I haven't actually got here yet, but I thought they sounded, they sound like. There is a limited number of these gels that are coming to the market now that aren't maltodextrin based. And that to me because, I mean, I've started trying to eat cereal bars gradually on my runs, trying to train myself to eat better. But clearly a gel is easier if it sits happily.

Yes, absolutely. Yeah. I think, I think things you have to chew are great in training, but in the thick of a race when you're exhausted, it's amazing how difficult it can be to. And tiring it can be to actually chew on something. So. So yeah, something pureed is always going to be easier.

Brilliant. Well, that's. I'm looking forward to trying them. And what about avoiding injury? I mean, you're obviously running huge differences distances. Do you do anything particularly with the mindset of avoiding injury?

I do strength and conditioning, so I do that two or three times a week and I've done that for quite a few years. And it's not because. So I do do some bodyweight exercises and some, and a few weighted exercises, but I'm not doing, you know, squats or anything like that. It's more kind of single leg stuff with dumbbells and not huge weights. And that's the main purpose of that is injury prevention rather than getting stronger as such. So I think it's partly that. But more than anything, I think it's training sensibly and, you know, not building up volume too quickly or changing anything too quickly in training. I do have a coach who keeps me in check and I think that has probably been the. That's probably the biggest factor in avoiding injury. Just having someone who's watching what you're doing and you're not doing anything stupid in training.

Yeah, I've heard that many times is you just need somebody overseeing you to make sure you're not making any stupid decisions. You did the 24 hour race, didn't you? And I think. Am I right in saying you did 142 miles in 24 hours? Is that right?

That sounds about right, yeah.

That seems like the kind of worst type of mental torture, just going around a one mile loop constantly. How did you find that?

I think the first time I did it, it was okay. Yes, it was tough, but the novelty was actually kind of exciting. And actually if you're running on a one mile loop, you're constantly surrounded by people. So actually I did it on a track, so 400 meters, there's people all the way around and there's the other competitors to talk to, there's lots going on. Whereas in a, you know, a long hundred mile race you might be running on your own for hours and hours and hours. So I didn't get bored. Although the next time I did it I think it was more of a. Because you know what you're getting yourself in for and how awful the last few hours are going to be. Yeah, I found it much, much harder. But yeah, it was. It's an interesting discipline and I did it just because I was curious about it, I suppose.

I think, you know, I would be with you. I would far rather be running on a trail than on the road. But to run around a track for 24 hours just seems like, I mean that the mental side of that particular version of the sport must, must be incredible. You know, the strength that you need to kind of just keep plodding along is. Yeah, that seems very tough to me.

Sure. And there's just nothing else to think about except the pain you're in, I guess. So you're not alone.

You won't be rushing back to do another one?

No, absolutely not.

And are there any particular. You said you read a lot when you started getting into running and you know, I don't know whether you continue to do that, but there any books that you regularly recommend or refer people to, any particular books that you thought were really helpful to you on your journey?

So as a runner, actually I haven't read that many running books, but the books I read when I first started ultrarunning that really inspired me were books by Adim Karnassus you probably know or probably have heard of him. Ultra Marathon Man. Now if I read it, I'd probably, I probably wouldn't enjoy it as much, but I think he's very American and. But it was still, you know, as a complete amateur, it was just, you know, the things he did was just. Were just incredible. And then Feet in the Clouds is the other book that I really, really enjoyed and that's very different and it's about the fell running scene in the uk. Yeah. And that certainly inspired me to get out in the hills in the UK a lot more.

Well, I'm reading Feet in the Clouds at the moment, which is absolutely cool. I'm loving it. And so how have you got involved with the Bob Graham round? Have you had a go at that or do you plan to?

I haven't yet, but yeah, it's something that I plan to do for sure. Yeah, I think it's difficult to because I'm always Always wanting to race and yeah, I want to do rounds as well. It's kind of difficult to, to do everything. So yeah, the rounds have kind of taken a back seat over the last few years. Although I did do a Paddy Buckley round three years ago. But yeah, Bob Graham is something certainly I want to do for sure.

I'm really enjoying that book. I think it's fun. It's just that fell running scene seems like again, something that I really want to learn more about. It just seems like such a wonderful kind of back to the roots of running type approach.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It's very. Yeah, it's different because the world of ultra running is becoming more. It's becoming bigger and bigger and becoming more and more commercial. Whereas yeah, fellow running is just still very grassroots and has changed very little in the last few decades.

And ultra running is becoming incredibly popular, isn't it? I mean it's going, it seems to be going from strength to strength. Do you think that will continue? I mean will it get to where for example Iron man is or do you think it will kind of. Is it already at its peak?

No, it's certainly growing and even the changes from year to year, huge. So yeah, I certainly think it's going to be. It's going to be as big or bigger than Iron man for sure. Yeah. It's still in that exponential phase, I think so. Which is really, really exciting. Yeah, fantastic.

And if you could only pass on one piece of advice to somebody that wanted to get into ultra running, what would that be?

Okay, this is difficult. One piece of advice. So I think training. So yeah, I would say train and try to train in places that excite you or race in places that excite you. I mean that's the real, the real thing about trail running, ultra running that I enjoy is that it's the places that I'm able to get to. And so yeah, enter a race somewhere that you haven't been before or go for a training like go away for the weekend to train somewhere you haven't haven't been before. Explore new places. And it was that excitement of doing that that really helped me in the initial phases. If I was just running laps on the road close to home or something like that, I probably would have given it up quite quickly. But yeah, I started traveling to places like Snowdonia that didn't know very well and I just got hooked on yeah, just training in cool locations, I think. Brilliant.

And other than western states, where would be.

Or.

@Utmb, where's your favorite? Where is the best place that you've been running in the world. Where was that place that you were running and you just went, wow, this is amazing.

The Dolomites for sure. In Italy. Yeah. Just breathtaking.

And was that a run or just, sorry, a race or was that training?

I've been there a couple of times actually and once was to do a race. Ironically, the race was terrible. I had a really bad time. But yeah, I certainly want to go back and I think the scenery is just insane. It's amazing. Yeah. And I want to go back there for sure.

Fantastic. That sounds like. Sounds like a good place to go and explore. I've never been there, but that sounds like a good reason to go. And final question, if we were sitting here one year from now, looking back, what's going to have happened in that 12 months for you to feel happy with the 12 months you've had? Actually, let's change that. Let's make it 14 months so that you've got the opportunity to do both of your key races next year. Assuming that's going to be your key races, what's going to happen in that next 14 months for you to be happy with the progress that you made?

So I think I don't like to think about results too much because, you know, a lot of the time it's actually so it's not in your control. And I'm the type of person that if I say, you know, I want to do, say I was fourth in Western States last year, I want to be in the top three next year and if I really set myself up for that and then I don't make it, then I'll be disappointed. So I don't like to think of, I don't like to set specific goals, but saying that it will be having a good race and running to the best of my ability and at the end of the day, like, yes, I take it seriously, but I do this for fun. And the most important thing is to, um, be doing the things that I enjoy and train consistently and enjoy the races and hopefully have good results. But potentially, you know, it's more about the enjoyment for me. So, yeah, I think there's nothing that I would say I want to have achieved in the next 14 months for sure. Like, if I can get in the top three at Western States or utmb, I'd be really, really happy. But actually, you know, sometimes if, if someone else comes along and runs the fastest time in history, then there's nothing you can do about that. So it's. Yeah, for me it's about experiences more than results. But results are obviously important as well.

Yeah, but I think that's a great approach. I think that way you're likely to be far happier in what you're doing. So. Brilliant. And one very final question actually because you obviously hold do all of this training with, whilst having a full time job as a pediatrician. So how do you kind of keep that balance between how do you get all of your training into a typical week and do you ever plan to try and go pros and take a back seat from work? How does it work trying to hold that down with a full time job.

So to answer the last bit, I had planned to take a sabbatical actually this for six months from February to the end of July this year. So the plan, yeah the plan was to go full time with the running for a bit. Just because I don't know how much the working was holding me back, I suppose. Yeah, you don't, you just. There was a lot of. I was finding myself in the last few years coming forth a lot and I didn't know, you know, if I, if I trained full time could I do any better than that? Maybe or maybe not. So yeah, the plan was to take six months off and I was going to go and train in the US for a bit. Obviously that didn't happen and I had a few weeks off or doing locums and things and then you know, coronavirus happened. So I went back to work and have written off this year but it's something I'm going to try and do next year but it's not, it's not a simple process. And then the first part, how do I balance it? I think it's about, it's about consistency and I'm not just talking about training but in like take into account recovery and sleep and things as well. So I used to do stupid things in training and in training in a way that was just not sustainable. So I'd be getting up at 4am to run before work and things and really not paying attention to getting enough sleep and things like that. And I would train really hard for a bit and then just feel exhausted and lose interest for a few weeks and then train really hard again. But over the last few years I've realized that it's all about being sustainable. So I pay more attention to sleep and things when I've got really long hard periods at work I don't do any hard sessions. So I'll just do easy running and I won't push myself too Hard. And yeah, just, it's. Yeah, it's just a. And I think I realized that actually being at work for long days and things and lots of time on feet is training and I have to count that as training. Yeah. So, yeah, I try to try to keep it as sustainable as possible, but I won't say that I always, you know, manage it gracefully. Like there are times when I, you know, I get really, really sleep deprived and I get ill a lot. So it's not, it's not straightforward. And yeah, I don't manage it perfectly. But certainly I, yeah, I try and be kind to myself and look after myself as much as possible and accept that, you know, I'm not going to be running the same miles a week as a, as a full time athlete. But being consistent over a long period of time is more important.

Beth, it's been absolutely brilliant chatting to you. I really enjoy. I could sit here and ask you questions all day because there's so much I would love to know about how you got to this level, but I don't want to take up any more of your time. But it's been absolutely brilliant chat with you. I'm really grateful. I know that there's loads of advice in here that will help so many other people kind of take their running to another level and maybe take it a little bit further as well. So a huge thank you from me for taking time out of your day and breaking your sleep pattern to spend some time with me. So thank you very much.

I'm sure you'll agree. What a genuinely lovely success story. A lovely person. Amazing how much she shared about her journey and what we can learn about how to get into ultra running if that's what you want to do. And the mental side of it, and I think the mental side of it applies to whatever endurance sport you do because we all have our dark moments. It doesn't matter whether it's at mile 75 on a run or it's on a long bike ride. It's. It's those. The advice that can help us there, I think is brilliant. So I hope you enjoyed that conversation with Beth. And don't forget to share your photos with tribathlon on Instagram. This podcast was brought to you by Lucky Saint Alcohol Free Beer. You can find out more at luckysaint.co it is my absolute favorite. Alcohol free beer. I said if you held on, I'd give you a discount code. That discount code is lucky. Try 20. So lucky spelled as you'd expect. Try spelled T R. I and then two zero go to LuckySaint Co use the discount code LUCKY. Try 20 and you'll get a lovely 20% off your order. I hope you enjoy your alcohol Free hangover free beer. Don't forget to download the Tribathlon app for more amazing podcasts, but also to help you train, compete and to build your tribe. Sam.