Ultra Camper Vanning with Sophie Grant

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Tribathlon podcast finding out how ordinary people do extraordinary things.

You run around. Now, I may have this slightly wrong, but I think you run around about three crater rims of volcanoes. When I was running it, one of the volcanoes in the distance was actually erupting. And like, I've always wanted to see that. That's one of. I love volcanoes. It's one of my kind of things. I just. I think they're incredible and I've always wanted to see one erupting and I didn't see a thing because I was so busy looking at my feet.

That was Sophie Graham and this episode is ultra campervanning. So, Clare, welcome back to the Tri Bathlor podcast. I suppose since we interviewed you, what's been going on? What's been happening in your life?

Oh, gosh, like everyone else, you know, constantly rearranging our calendars with races, the constant deferral and, you know, reallocation of. Of dates really. But other than that, yeah, it's been. It's been busy, but it's been great, hasn't it, to see like races happening in the UK as well? I think we've been really lucky in the UK to see sort of the triathlon scene sort of back up and running. And I think it's been interesting actually to see a lot of people have just been entering races. So even our kind of ultra distance triathletes have been entering sprint races and Olympic races and it's just been really good fun. I don't know. I don't know. I know you've been racing a little bit as well, haven't you?

I have, yeah. It's been fantastic. It's felt from a racing point of view that everything's come at once. You know, I've had. I've got. I've had three half Ironmans, a full Ironman, I've got the London Marathon and an Ultra coming. It feels like everything's come at once, which is. Which is great because it was long overdue. So what races have you been? Have you done any racing this year?

I. Good question. I attempted to do some right at the very beginning and then managed to fall off the pavement with my bike, which ended up in an injury. And then about four of my races rearranged for next year. So. Yeah, but actually really interesting. Followed, followed the protocols for nutrition and strength and conditioning for ligaments and tendons and actually I'm back on track. So it was amazing. Excellent.

It's good to feel that it works. And so when you think you're when do you think your next race might be?

Um, so I'm racing very soon. So I'm racing this weekend. So we'll see, we'll see what the UK weather throws at us. Um, so yeah, and the race this weekend is so with I'm doing Bolton 70.3, apparently the one and only year it will be on. Um, yeah, I'm looking forward to it. Looking forward to finishing Charlie, actually. Yeah, I think, I think it'll be, I think it'll be interesting and then, and then got some other things later on in the season. But it's a, it's just a forever moving calendar, isn't it? That's the problem. It's, you know, we never quite know.

What'S on and what's not on.

So we're going to have to wait and wait and see. But actually done some talking about other people that have been doing short distance races actually kind of had a go at doing some Olympic distance local races again. And it's, it's just been so exciting and actually I think that's made me realize like why I love triathlon and probably where my first love of triathlon came from as well. So that's been really nice actually, to kind of go back to the roots again, I guess.

Yeah, exactly. I haven't done any shorter races this year and I normally throw a few in but all my shorter races that I would have planned got. Those are the ones that dropped off and. But the longer races stayed. So that was, that was, that was good because I'd rather it was that way around. But the shorter races, I mean they're great fun but they, they're just too frantic for my liking. I get too, I get more stressed about them.

Yeah, they're brutal. And I was going to ask you actually how you've been sort of recovering because you've obviously done longer distance races and then a couple of Ironman distances, then you've got this ultra coming up and your London Marathon. Um, and I think it's been really difficult, difficult for athletes because what I found from going back and doing the short distance races, it is blooming difficult. Like, I forget like actually having to run a, a race at the end rather than kind of, you know, kind of get through it. Um, but recovery is just so much, so much quicker. Like you know, coming off the back of an Olympic distance race, it is, it is brutal because it's faster. But actually I, you know, I forget how long it takes us to recover from like half distance Ironmans or full Ironman events. So how have you got on in terms of recovery, Howard?

Interestingly so I recovered really quickly from the first half Ironman slower for the second, but I didn't perform well on the second. And I think it was. It was only a couple of days after my second Covid jab, so I'm putting it down to the COVID jab follow up. But then the Ironman, I felt like I recovered pretty well from actually pretty quickly. But my last half Iron Man, I think, which was my best performance, what I recovered, it took me longer to recover. Not, probably not from a. Just from a physical aches and pains point of view, more so than the Ironman, probably not from a kind of fatigue point of view. But yeah, I think just because I pushed myself that much harder knowing that that was my, my final triathlon of the year. But, but what was really good was going into that half Ironman having done the sweat sweat test with you and kind of learning even more about it. So I wanted to kind of spend a bit of time talking about this sweat test because I'd obviously done the online sweat test before, but then came to you and did the proper sweat test. So what did you learn? What can you tell me about what we got out of that sweat test and what I should be doing going forward?

Yeah, no, absolutely. I think, number one, it was really interesting because obviously precision hydration, the. An online sweat test. And I think during lockdown, lots of people were using that and I know lots of people do use that as a bit of a kind of a first tool to kind of point them in the right direction. And what was really good, actually is to see that their logarithm behind their sodium sweat testing, actually when you do an online kind of questions, it brought you out to exactly the same results, didn't it, as in terms of the amount of sodium or suggested amount of sodium that we should, that we should be using. So that was really good to see that it did tally up. And again, sort of just that evidence that, you know, the numbers behind their logarithm does, does tie up, which is really good. But I think it was great to actually have a figure, have a number. I mean, a triathlete loves a number, don't they? So actually you having a. Having a number, what did you feel about that?

Well, I suppose it was just. I thought I agree with you in that. It was just really good that. Because when I went through the online sweat test months ago, some of the questions I was answering, I was like, I don't really know whether, because I've got nobody to compare against other than my own experience. So some of the questions were a bit difficult to answer, but it was really good that it, that it did come out with exactly the same recommendations. So for me, it was 1500 before and after, essentially, and 1000 during the race. And yeah, so that was, that was really good. And I think having been using that approach since the online sweat test, it's worked really well for me. I haven't had any cramps. I haven't, you know, I think recovery has been good just generally because I'm not, you know, I feel like I'm not running myself into the ground too much. So that was good. But, but interestingly, I think it told me that I don't sweat. I'm a salty sweater, but I don't sweat as much as some people.

So it's interesting, isn't it? So when I see people and give advice from a sodium perspective. So when we talk about the sweat testing, a lot of people say to me, and I'd be interested to know your thoughts actually on what you thought you were coming to, because a lot of people imagine that we're going to put them on a treadmill or a cycling test and like, you know, absolutely get them to sweat buckets and buckets and then do some sort of test on that. And there are patch tests which some people have had in the past. And I know a number of my athletes have done sodium sweat patch tests where they do get you to exercise and to sweat. And there's also a new form of chloride testing as well. And there's pretty pros and cons, obviously, to all of those things. But what we do know with the sodium sweat testing that we do with the electrodes is the results are very consistent and we can reproduce those results over and over again. So we know the consistency is good in terms of the results we're sort of getting out. But I mean, you just had to sit there, didn't you? I just put some electrodes on. It took, I mean, without us chatting, really, I mean, it takes what, 40 minutes probably, I guess.

Yeah, we were, we were chatting for a fair while. But yeah, you're absolutely right. It probably doesn't even take that long. And yes, I definitely had the impression that I was going to be beforehand, I was going to be, you know, you working me really hard on a treadmill and I was going to be sweat pouring off me. But no, it was just a nice sit down and a chat and then told me the results and, you know, were able to explain the impact of that on my training and the hydration. So, yeah, it was, it was really good.

So I think. So that's where I kind of try and explain sort of two sides really, because I got you to. And you did a lovely form, by the way. Charlie filled out everything for me in terms of your sweat losses. So there's this form, isn't there, that I got you to fill out a spreadsheet essentially, and to collect some data in terms of you going away and actually collecting some of this sweat loss data in a very easy, easy way, in terms of. Very crude way to say it, but like, you know, measuring. Measuring your weight before and after training, essentially. So there's a. There's a bit more in depth to it than that. But. And I think what it showed us just from the amount of data that you collected, and you collected quite a good spread of data actually across sort of different environments in terms of inside, outside, when it was a bit hotter, when it was a bit cooler. Is that actually you thought your perception was that you sweated loads, wasn't it? And actually you were pretty average, if not below average. I think we sort of, when we looked at your data. So the interesting, I guess, kind of addition to the knowledge that you got from these, the sodium sweat concentration online is that you now can put these two things together. So you know that actually with the amount that you're sweating in terms of fluid loss, it's actually very concentrated sodium. So you're not losing buckets and buckets of it, but what you do lose has got lots of sodium within it. And you did come out as a high salty sweater, didn't you? Yeah, the sweat rate was over a thousand.

I was really interested when you, when I was. When you get me to fill out that spreadsheet beforehand, the weighing before and afterwards, I was amazed how much weight you. I was losing just over an hour, you know, just an hour run or an hour on the turbo. Uh, yeah, that was incredible. I was losing sort of often Losing a kilo an hour.

Yeah, and, and it. And you know, an average. So an average sweat loss for somebody. I mean, as long as you're not kind of. Right, the kind of ends of the scale in terms of, you know, sort of really lightweight runners, you know, that maybe sort of 48kg and are kind of heavier weight guys that maybe up into 120kg, you know, if you're not two ends of the scale, actually an average sweat loss rate of fluid is anywhere Between a kilogram to a kilogram and a half. So, you know, we're not, we're not. Or in terms of liters, it's one liter to one, one and a half liters of fluid loss. So, you know, you certainly were at the lower, the lower end of that when we're collecting the data, which kind of, you know, ties into sort of body weight as well. So, you know, I think, I think that was really interesting and I think people often forget as well, you know, from a nutritional perspective and when we talk about body composition, because I always find this fascinating how all these parts of the jigsaw puzzle kind of come together and hence my interest in sodium sweat testing is that people can become really obsessed about weighing. And actually, doesn't this show us a point that actually you can get, you can lose a kilogram just going out for a run, but that's not body mass loss, it's fluid loss.

Um, it certainly made me think about my zwift racing because I'm like, now, now I need to, I need to put, I would have only ever weighed myself before, whereas now I should be putting my sort of at least the midpoint, if not the end point for my zwift racing. My, my watts per kilo will be shooting up in no time.

I think. Yeah, interesting point. But I think that, I think it does show us that, you know, we can become obsessed with, with weight the whole time. Can't be in terms of being, you know, being triathletes or cyclists. You know, we're all constantly thinking about kind of, you know, light and, you know, being faster. That's, that's often what, you know, people tend to kind of talk about a lot and actually undoing that a little bit, isn't it interesting how, you know, doing a 60 minute session, you may lose a kilogram, a kilogram and half in weight. That's actually just sweat loss. And you know that because when you rehydrate that, you know, you go back to your normal weight again. So I think that also explains some lovely data as well in terms of. It is fluid loss. And actually there was an interesting figure, wasn't there? I think you'd, was there a longer session? I think you did a three hour, five hour run, five hour bike session. Was it run?

Yeah.

Okay, that's even more impressive. But we were talking about we wouldn't use that data in terms of that sweat loss spreadsheet. But it was really interesting to see because of course by that point you're starting to utilize fuels as well. So you're obviously using glycogen. So stored carbohydrates, stored energy from your liver and muscle stores. So that wouldn't be kind of. It's difficult because it's tied up within your fluid loss is tied up within your glycogen depletion as well.

Well, let me say it also is complicated by adding gels in and things like that, isn't it?

Yeah, yeah, to a certain degree.

So one thing I also picked up on then was that you, you've had a slight change from a business perspective, haven't you? And you started a different type of coaching for people. Do you want to tell us a bit about that?

Yeah. So we over sort of. Well it was probably before COVID actually. We were looking at different ways to really kind of give all of our kind of tools and knowledge to all of those athletes out there. And you know, obviously from an athlete perspective we, we work with, you know, anyone from sort of age group athletes or wanting to have a go to kind of through to sort of professional level. So we've got a really great kind of group of athletes and we really wanted to kind of give back as much as we could. So with some of our feedback as well, we decided to do some squad coaching so some group coaching. So we're really excited that this year we'll be offering group coaching. So actually this would be available. So if you actually had a group of people and you really wanted to have some nutrition coaching all together, then we can take you on as a group or it might be like your triathlon club or your running club. You could come together as, as a group. And we're, we're really offering it as small groups so that you really kind of benefit from a very sort of. In as much as we can be a very sort of like hands on sort of, you know, approach to coaching within, within sort of a group, a group setting. But basically this will, or you can just join a squad. So you'll be with a group of like minded people which is I think will also be really fun because you'll get to know different people over the time as well and it really takes you on a, on a journey essentially and it's, it's a guided journey by our new performance nutritionist and myself. So we'll take you on this, on this journey that we would essentially do with one to one coaching with you but just in that, in that kind of more group setting over the course of six months. So really taking you through the seasons, you know Right from you know, starting with all the analysis part. So you know we talked about sodium sweat testing then but you know, talking about how do you measure your own body composition, what do you do with the data? Because that's really important. You know it's all very well isn't it, you having that data, for example, sodium sweat testing. But what are you going to go away and do do with it and then really sort of teaching and equipping you with the goals. Equipping me with the tools. Sorry for fueling for racing about GI distress about body composition. So really sort of taking you right from kind of the winter season really into kind of race season and beyond. That's really exciting to be launching that.

Yeah, it sounds really exciting. So it's over a six month period and what regularity you doing running those group sessions?

Yeah, so obviously we're kind of opening up as our new group sort of coaching and the idea being really is that we would have two lectures or group sessions per month and then an open sort of forum, office hours like Q and A. So you can drop in once a month to answer any questions or ask any questions that you might have as well as a group. Once you get to know each other you may want to accelerate that and if you wanted to do it over three months you're more than welcome to do that. But it would mean sort of once a week which is quite a time commitment for some people.

It's really interesting because I've been doing a thing for my business life called the strategic Coach program for the last or I don't know how many years, like maybe 12 years and it's once a quarter workshop, day long workshop. But yeah, taking that approach to nutrition because you know there must be so much to learn and you know, potentially bringing in guest speakers and all that sort of stuff. Yeah, I think it's, I think it's fascinating. Well done.

Yeah, I think it will be, I think it would be really great because it really does mean that we can offer our knowledge and expertise to a greater number of people because of course we have our sort of one to one coaching that still exists which is very personalized and very individualized with really, you know, a lot of contact throughout the week. But to be able to offer something for everyone I think is really exciting actually to be able to do that.

Well, maybe you can provide, if you can give me some details on that. I'll put that in the show notes so that people can find out more. Where would they be? We'll put it in the show notes. But where would they best go to.

Find out if they hop onto our website? So if they go to fourth discipline.com there is a nice little pop up actually that comes up when you open the webpage. So you can actually sign up for early access. So if you wanted to know about any discounts or early access that's going to be happening, you can literally sign up there or you can drop us an email and you can do that from the website, from the website as well. And we will, we will get in touch as soon as we're, as soon as we're ready to go.

Fantastic.

Excitingly, Precision Hydration will be coming along to give us some lectures on hydration. So yeah, so it would be, I think it would be a really great, would be really great course for people really wanting to understand nutrition, sports nutrition a little bit better.

So sounds fascinating. Sounds really, really good. Right? Okay, so great to catch up. I'll come back to you in a bit. But let's now dive into the interview with Sophie Grant. Now, Sophie Grant is an ultra runner who has finished in the top 10 at UTMB, Lavaredo, Transgren, Canaria, Marathon De Sable, just to name a few. What's really interesting about Sophie is she only started running in her 30s to lose some weight and is now one of the top runners on the circuit. What's also fascinating about Sophie is that she struggled to deal with the stress of holding down a normal job working in a hair salon whilst also training for ultra distance races, which he often involved traveling abroad at the weekends. So she's flipped normal life on its head and in the last few years has been living out of a camper van whilst traveling around Europe to some amazing places and then just flying back in and out of the UK sporadically for work. So I wanted to understand when speaking to Sophie how she went from beginner to top ultra runner, how living in a camper van has changed her perspective. Perspective, but also how women in ultrarunning still suffer from sexist torments and strategies in races around the world. I know you're gonna love the really wonderful and interesting conversation with Sophie Grant. Today's show is brought to you by Precision Hydration who help athletes personalize their hydration and fueling strategies so they can perform at their best. They work with a long list of elite athletes like three time Olympian and former guest of the podcast Eilish McColgan as well as many other athletes. PH tested my sweat and it turns out I'm a much saltier sweater than average. And I would benefit from drinking a much stronger electrolyte drink than you'd normally get off the shelf. They also tested Sid, who actually loses about half as much sodium as I do when I sweat. Which just goes to show how much you can personalize your approach to hydration. Check out their free online sweat test@precisionhydration.com to get some personalized advice. Or like Sid and I, book yourself in for one of their advanced sweat tests. As a listener of the show, if you use the discount code TRIBATHLON15, you can get 15% off your first order at the checkout. So, Sophie, welcome to the Tribathlon podcast. Thank you so much for joining me. I'm really looking forward to getting to know some more about you. I like always like to kick these podcasts off with a little bit about your story. So I know you didn't, you know, you were massively into running as a kid. So maybe you can tell us a little bit about how you got into running, what growing up in New Zealand was like when you, you know, at that time. And then tell us a bit about your successes along the way and why we're chatting today, I suppose.

Thank you so much for having me.

I'm really looking forward to chatting with you. Yeah. To say I wasn't a cane runner as a kid is an understatement. My mom used to have to write me sick notes every time the school cross country was on. It's not interested in running at all. I used to do a lot of hiking as a family and even that I was always right at the back complaining. I just didn't really want to do it. I am however now very grateful for having been brought up doing all of that hiking because I think it is so stood me in good stead for what has come later in my life.

Well, I mean. And you were growing up in New Zealand, in Christchurch, I think. Is that right? So yeah, that's, I mean it's some pretty spectacular scenery around there isn't is.

I think you know, when you grow up in New Zealand you kind of take that for granted. You don't. You know, I was really, I think I was very, very lucky in the fact that when I was growing up in New Zealand, we spent a lot of time traveling around New Zealand. My dad works for the Department of Conservation and he saves our endangered bird species in New Zealand. So like every family holiday was spent in the middle of nowhere in a tent or in some like mosquito bitten hut, kind of just hiking around with dad like telling us why moss grows on one side of the tree and not on the other. And look at this bird and all of that sort of stuff. So, you know, looking back now is a pretty idyllic upbringing, to be honest.

Oh, amazing. So if you weren't into running when you were growing up in New Zealand, how did you end up getting into running?

So I played a lot of sport at school.

I played, you know, I was sort of the person who wanted to do everything. I played netball, I played volleyball, I played touch rugby and basketball and all of those sorts of things, but just the running side of it was just not even on my radar. And then we moved to the UK when I was 20 and I'd never left New Zealand before we. Before I moved to the uk, my then boyfriend, now husband, decided that he was going to go and wanted me to come, that was going to go whether I came or not. So I just packed up my stuff and moved over to the other side of the world. And I. I was never particularly slender growing up, but certainly when I hit the uk, I put on quite a lot of weight. I was quite unhappy, you know, like, I'd moved to the other side of the world. I had no friends, I had no job. I had. We, like, moved in with his parents, who were amazing, his dad and his stepmom. But, you know, it was just quite an adjustment to go from having all of my life set up to suddenly having to redo it again somewhere completely new. And so we just did a lot of the stuff that Kiwis do in London, right? We got drunk and we ate bad food and partied and kind of didn't move our bodies enough.

Mostly in the walkabout in Wimbledon, I would imagine.

Oh, yeah, they actually, they call it the Heathrow injection. It's well known in the antipodean circles. And so, yeah, so I put on quite a lot of weight and I. I remember one day I went to a market and I bought a pair of trousers and I didn't try them on. My. Held them up, I mean, and they were ugly. I don't. I'm actually really pleased that I didn't fit them. But. So they were these silver trousers. I looked at them, I was like, they're going to fit. I got them home and I could literally get them to my knees. And that was kind of like a line in the sand moment for me, of like, huh, okay, so I'm not that size anymore. In fact, I'm very, very far away from that size. And if I don't do something about this. Nothing is going to change. So I started running. Well, running is a loose term for it. My husband was working quite early in the morning, so I'd get up and I'd walk him to work, and then I would kind of shuffle for 15 minutes home. And that was all I could manage, you know, 10, 15 minutes was it. And I would kind of, you know, do it in a baggy T shirt and just hoping that no one was watching me. But eventually, 15 became 20, and 20 became 30. And I was lucky. Very, very lucky, actually, because we were still staying with my boyfriend's parents. His dad was a runner. Is a runner.

His dad's nuts.

He like ice climbs and does all the stuff that we like to do now. But then I was just like, you know, can you. Can you teach me how to run? And he sort of looked at me like, really? I was like, yeah. And he was like, okay, go over to Batman Post and run back. And he's like, that's how you run. I was like, all right, don't need to be a smart house. But we used to run together five days a week. And what started with 15 minutes of shuffling became an hour and thinking that you're going to be letting your boyfriend's father down. So we moved out of their place, but we kind of didn't move that far away, and he used to come and meet me first thing in the morning. And thinking that you're going to be leaving your boyfriend's father outside in the rain because you couldn't be bothered to get up and run was a huge motivator for me. You know, it just. It meant that I kind of accidentally built consistency into my week without really understanding very much about running or why that was a good thing or that it would even be helpful. And then it kind of spiraled. So then I, you know, I went through that whole. Like, I ran my first 10k, and it was hard and awful and. But I saw, you know, I finished, and I was like, oh, okay. Well, that was all right. And I'm. I'm quite competitive in nature. I love a bit of competition, you know, Like, I don't. I don't have to win. I'm happy for other people to do well. I just. I want to go out there and I want to try my best, and I want to pit myself against people who are also trying to do that. So then I ran a half marathon with Roger and was desperate to beat him, and, like, took off, like, halfway through and obviously completely spent, burnt Myself out and he kind of picked me up at the end and we crossed the line together. So, yeah, it kind of Then, you know, then I guess it just rolled into marathons. And then you get into that, you know, trying to hit marathon times. So the first year that I ran the marathon, and this was when I cared a lot more about fashion, I was like, I want to be like every great designer and I want to run London, Paris, and New York. And my goal was to try and get a qualifying time for New York because I figured that was probably the easiest way to get in was to just run fast enough. So I went to Paris and the qualifying time at the time was 3:23. So I went to Paris and my first marathon, I ran 3:26. And then I ran London and I did it in 3 hours, 23 minutes and 47 seconds. So then. So then we flew to New York for me to run in a half marathon. It was like the last qualifying race of the season and I had to run 131. And I ran 131 10.

Oh, no.

I know, it's ridiculous. And then in the end, my husband actually just bought me a place. So I ended up running New York. But it kind of, you know, at that point, I really had the bug. And I started to realize that you could see the world running and no one really minded that you were having yet another holiday because you were going off to run a marathon. And it seemed like this big thing.

Amazing.

And then, yeah, then. Then it got to the point where it was like, I either need to run faster or I need to go further. And I'd never really, you know, I didn't really know anything about training. I didn't. My approach to marathon running was a bit like, we'll just try and run everything f which now I understand does not work. That does not make you a faster runner. That just makes you tired. But then it was like, okay, well, I'm not getting any faster. I'm sort of not managing to break that sub three hour marathon time. And my husband's dad, Roger, always talked about these ultra marathons, you know, like these people going and running ridiculous distances in unreal environments. And I was a bit like, well, why couldn't I have a go at that? And my husband, who's forever supportive of me, surprised me that next birthday with a place on the marathon subs.

That sounds like an amazing present to me. I know there's an awful lot of people thinking that sounds like their worst Christmas present ever, but that sounds really cool.

Best birthday present ever. Honestly, I don't know if he's ever going to be able to top that, to be honest. It was amazing. And you know, like then we spent seven months training me to go out into the desert and like I had no idea how to run an ultramarathon. I had no idea about fueling or you know, carrying all your stuff on your back. And it just, you know, my husband is amazing. He is very, very research based. Like he likes to learn everything he can about a subject, read everybody's accounts from it and so like I kind of raced up and down the country at that point just to try and gain some experience in ultra running and what, what that meant and what that felt like. And I kind of went into it kind of a bullet of china shop and I actually managed to do okay. And it's kind of like you come from marathon racing where you're like, you know, quite far down the field and you go into ultra running and there's maybe, I mean, if you're lucky, 10 girls on the start line of this thing and suddenly you're finding that you're actually getting places. Which is, which was a complete surprise to me. I kind of didn't expect to go in and to be good at it.

And so what was your first ultra, how did you step into that ultra world?

What was my first one was. So it was either one of the endurance life races, so like endorse it or something like that, or there was like a 50k race into London. But I did a lot of the endurance life races. So I did a lot of racing around the uk, kind of coastlines and that sort of stuff. So they, you know, they're quite low key races, really well organized and just really, it was amazing actually because we, we really got to see the uk, you know, like, I think as a Kiwi living in the uk, I've probably seen more of the UK than most of the Brits that live there.

This is, but this is a common problem, isn't it? You see, So I, I've often seen more of Australia and New Zealand than Kiwis or Aussies I meet. But then yes, you're absolutely right. They've seen a huge amount of the UK and probably more than I have.

Yeah, it's a, it is a great.

Way to see the uk, I have.

To say, is to get out and do those races because it forces you into the really small towns and the really, you know, the really kind of remote, beautiful places that the UK has to offer.

Well and I'm going to come back later on to ask you about some of your favorites, but I'm just. While I think about it now, have you ever done the arc 50 down in Cornwall or the arc.

No. Do you know what? I have never actually.

Wow.

I say that I have. I think I came second and like that Cornwall Marathon or whatever, but it's like, it's like just inside the border, so it's not really in Cornwall. Like I've never been to the Cornish coast. It's one of the. It's about the only area that we haven't seen.

Well, it's probably my favorite area in the uk. I love the Cornish coastline. And in winter, in winter or summer, it's obviously different in winter to summer, but the arc 50 and the arc of Attrition are in the winter. So it's gonna be. I haven't done an organized ultra before, but last January I was supposed to do the arc 50 and obviously it didn't happen. So I've got it to look forward to this January.

Excellent. Well, I hope for you you have nice kind weather.

You and me both. It's gonna be a very different experience if it's not, and I'm not expecting particularly, but it is a stunning part of the uk, it really is. So you should get down there at some point. Even if it is to do with the coastal path, a nice park time of the year as opposed to a grotty one.

I have to say one of the really good things I think about kind of honing my craft in the UK is that you are okay in pretty much any weather. You know, like the weather gets bad in the mountains and you're okay because it's fine. The weather is bad a lot of the time in the UK and you just put on your jacket and you just get on with it.

Yes, we're well equipped for most conditions, aren't we? Fantastic. So talk to me about training for Marathon Disable. How did you go about that? You've never done anything like that before.

For those.

I mean, I think most listeners will know what Marathon DeSalva is, but maybe just give people a very brief summary of it. But how do you go about training something like that, that with no previous experience.

So the Marathon Des arms is a 250 kilometer stage race through the Sahara. You carry all of your food on the back, on your back and all of your equipment apart from a tent and water that they give you along the way. It's. How do you train for it? Well, we were Quite invested. My husband built me a heat chamber in the garage so that I could train in 40 degree heat in the middle of the winter in Fulham. That was a real plus, honestly, I think that really helped going out there.

More brownie points he was getting.

Oh, I know, I know. Honestly. Husband award, definitely. So we used to drive to Wales because Wales has Europe's second highest sand dune.

Now, I heard you mention this on another podcast. Where is that? Where in Wales is that?

I'm not going to pronounce this properly. Methyl Mer. Oh, just inside the border.

Oh, okay.

So we used to drive there and I used to run up and down the sand dune and we'd do that if I wasn't racing, really towards the end of the training. If I wasn't racing on a weekend, we'd drive to Wales and I'd run up and down the sand dune. I tried to do a lot of running and mud. So, you know, like a lot of those ultras that I'd pick would be ones that were in mud, you know, just to try and get used to having not great footing underneath your feet. And we made sure that my bag was as light as it possibly could be. So we basically spent seven months refining my backpack, making sure that every single thing that I took, I would use and that every single thing that I took was the lightest possible version of that thing. So my husband even like remade the stuff sack for my sleeping bag because he decided that the one that it came with was too heavy.

I think in ultra running the term is shaving your toothbrush, isn't it?

Oh, yeah, no, absolutely, absolutely.

What other, what other savings did you make that stand out?

So we made me a pair of water. Well, maybe a pair of windproof pants because at the time you couldn't get super light option. We repackaged all of my food so that it was in. We like vacuum packed it and repackaged it so it was in lighter bags. I managed to take. You see, I think you have to take like 1400 calories. I managed to take 1700 calories because all of the rest of my kit was so light. But I had absolutely everything that I needed. You know, there's like a sleep mat that you can buy that's just like a skeleton. We had my sleeping bag made for me so that I could have it exactly the right size with X amount of down in it and without a zip, which made it much lighter. So it was just, you know, you just have to look at everything. Every single, every gram counts in that situation. People, you know, think, oh well I'll just take this or just take that or that doesn't matter. It's like when you are carrying that for a week, you are going to be at a disadvantage. And you see some people out there with their packs, man, even, even in some of the ultra, like the mountain one day races, you see just like what is everyone carrying? Honestly, some people's packs look like they're like 15 kgs and it's. Yeah, it's just about making sure that you have everything you need because obviously you need to make sure that you stay safe and you stay warm and you stay protected and you stay fed. But you know, you don't need to take the luxury item and to be honest, actually my luxury item was a camera which I didn't use very much and I regret that now. I actually wish that I got it out more and taken some more photos but I was kind of so focused on, on the race and actually just hanging out with everyone who was out there that I kind of didn't take very many photos. So probably I could have lost that too.

And is that a camera plus phone or are you not able to take.

You didn't take your phone. There's no point, there's no reception. So when, when you first go out there, you have like a night at the camp where you can have like a duffel bag with all your stuff so you can have like a proper pillow, you can have, you know, whatever you want, you have your phone, all that sort of stuff. But the thing is, is that once you're out in the middle of the desert, your phone isn't going to work anyway.

Is there anything you didn't take that you wish you had taken to that race?

No, I don't.

No. I wish I'd taken a different blister kit.

The tape that I took, I mean I only got one blister but the tape that I took wasn't very good. But no, I had. Oh, and the other, the other thing that I really wished and someone gave me this advice and I didn't listen. I took sweet breakfasts, like one of those dehydrated food porridge breakfast things and someone actually told me, don't, don't take those sweet breakfasts because you won't feel like them because it's super hot and the last thing you want is more sugar because you're having a lot of sugar during the day. And I was like, oh yeah, you don't know what you're talking about. Even though you've done it. I'm fine.

I've tried it, I've tested it.

They go down well. By day four, I think, or five, I actually had chili con can for breakfast because I just couldn't find another sweet breakfast. So I wish that I hadn't taken those and had taken something different, but there is nothing additional that I wish that I'd taken.

So what would you. What would you. With the benefit of hindsight, what should you take over breakfast?

Maybe just like plain oats. I think I would have just made up little bags of plain oats with maybe, I don't know, just a pinch of salt. And you just don't want anything that's sugary because the best thing that I had every day when I came in was a pepperoni. And honestly, they've never tasted that good as when I just salty and full of fat and it was just absolute heaven. But, yeah, I think just something really simple for breakfast like oats with salt and so that it's not really anything.

Yeah, that sounds like good advice, I have to admit. Yeah, salty oats doesn't sound perfect at the moment, but at that time, I can see the sense behind that. So how did the first MDs go for you?

Oh, do you know what?

I had so much fun. I really, really enjoyed myself. Apart from day three. Day three was really tough for me. And it was also the day that I learned that you were allowed to walk at ultras. I had a really great first couple of days and everything was going well. And then I guess day three, it was just. It was getting hotter and the sand was relentless. On day three, it wasn't necessarily particularly hilly or sand duney, but it was just soft and never ending. And all I could think of was, where was the sea? Why is there so much sand here and there is no sea? And one of my tent mates actually came running up behind, well, running up, walking up behind me. He was kind of walking as fast as I was shuffling and he said to me, he's like, you know, it's okay to walk. I was like, oh, great. I know. I didn't know that.

Excellent.

And so we kind of walked for a bit together and. And it just, it made it bearable. And, you know, then I kind of got through that day and day, you know, then on the long day, I had just the most, like, I just loved it. It got up to 54 degrees and. Yeah, I know. I was like, oh, my God, I've always wanted to be halfway to boiling. And I kind of. I'd played the game quite well. So in the mds, if you are, and if you are one of the top five women on that long day, you actually have to start running at midday. Whereas if 6th and back get to start in the morning, which is a more desirable time to start, then you're not running at night so long. And, you know, and so coming into day three, the day before, I actually let one of the other women pass me before I got to the finish, because I was just like. I mean, I'd had an awful day anyway, but I was just like, there is absolutely no way I can start up midday tomorrow. So I'm just going to hang back here and let someone pass me and then I can start in the morning, they can start at midday. Which actually really paid off for me in the end. And I managed to come. What did I come? Fourth, Something like that?

Fourth or fifth?

I think I got fourth down in my notes.

Can't even remember so long ago. So, yeah, I came fourth, which was just incredible, you know, like, I would never have expected to. To do so well out there.

And that's incredible. For your first race of that type, to come in fourth is amazing. You've done so many amazing races actually, since, you know, you've been top 10 in so many incredible races like UTMB and so many others. But which do you think? You know, what do you think are your key, your biggest moments of your running career so far?

I mean, that's.

That's gotta be one of them coming forth at the mes because it kind of cemented for me that I might be okay at this, that this might be something that I, you know, could do well at. I mean, do you want the biggest moments that have shaped me as a runner?

Yeah, okay. Yeah, let's do that.

Yeah. Because definitely one of them was at Trans Gran Canaria. The first time I ran it, it's 125km, and I expected to be finished a lot faster than I was. And I was. The first time I'd kind of started throwing up during a race and it was just really hard and I wanted to pull out and I threw a massive tantrum and my husband would not let me pull out of that race and made me finish like it was. He was just like, absolutely not. There is nothing wrong with you. You are going to finish because otherwise you're going to be a complete nightmare tomorrow. And that for me was a huge turning point because it was just like, no matter how bad things get, if I can still keep moving forward, I can finish these races. You know, in my head, in that race, I was lost. I mean, I think I was 14th by the time I finished. And it just, it just really made me realize that you just have to keep moving forward. And if you're really that bad, someone will pull you out. You know, a medical pull you out, your crew will pull you out. But most of the time you think you're a lot worse than you are. And so you just kind of have to just put that aside and keep moving. I think one of the, I mean, one of the massive highlights for me was running for Great Britain at the, at the World Trail Champs. You know, like, that was nuts. To go from someone who could only run for 15 minutes to actually running for the country is just, I don't know, it was just kind of mind blowing for me. I couldn't actually believe that that had happened.

So tell us more about that experience. Where was that? And you know, tell us more about it.

That was in, I want to say 2017, but it might have been earlier than that. In Portugal, I did not have a good race. I still hadn't kind of got in control of my vomiting issues whilst I raced. And it was hot and it was a very stress, you know, obviously it's quite a stressful environment and it was. So, yeah, so I didn't have the best race out there, but to just be part of the team. And you know what, I was lucky that being part of the team, the other girls had a great race and we actually got third team. So I kind of have like this bronze world championship medal, which is amazing. So, yeah, it was just an amazing experience to kind of to be part of that team and to run, you know, such amazing people. Like, I think a really big drive for me and the races that I pick is that I want to. I really want to run with other competitive women. Like, I am not really interested in being in a race. Well, I mean, apart from if it's beautiful and fun and all of that sort of stuff. But I really want to be in races that have lots of amazing women who are racing as well, because I just think it's incredible to watch these female athletes. You know, we're all out there trying to do our best and it's incredible to be part of that space.

Fantastic. And the, the competitiveness of women in the ultra running scene is just going from strength to strength, isn't it? So are you, are you finding that that's easier to get those good races? I mean, obviously, Covid aside?

Yeah, it's really cool to watch this space grow, you know, Like, I think when I first started ultrarunning the woman, there was no exposure. No one really knew that women were out doing it. And one of the, you know, like, I kind of devoured every book I could on the subject when I first started doing it. And one of the people that I was reading about was a kiwi girl called Lisa Tamanty. And just reading about other women doing these amazing things, you know, it's what inspired me to try and have a go. And so I think it's a really cool environment to be in right now because women are starting to get exposure. They are. You know, the level of competition is growing and it's expanding and I just think that is so cool. I really do.

Well, I'm going to come. I'm going to come back to Women in Ultra Running later on because I know that it's a subject that you're incredibly passionate about. But we'll definitely come back to that. While you sort of pick out some of the moments that have turned your career. One question that I wondered was, what's the hardest race that you've done?

Diagonal du Fou, Grand Raid, Reunion. But that race is nuts. So it's like 100, I think it's 100 miles worth, I think about 10,000 meters of uphill and downhill. So roughly the same as the utmb, but way harder.

Sorry, just to take a step back, where is this? Can you explain where we are at the moment?

It is on Reunion island, which is an island that actually belongs as part of France and is off the coast of. I mean, I guess it's in the Indian Ocean, so off the coast of Madagascar. It's an incredible island. It is just the most beautiful place. And this race is so like, the island gets so behind it that they actually save half of the race entries for locals and they have to have a ballot because there are so many people on that island that want to run this race. And it's the start. I mean, it's just nuts. The start start is like starting the London Marathon. So they put you into this massive cage. You start at about 10 o' clock at night. So already you've been up all day trying to figure out. Even the registration process is just a bit kind of mind blowing. But you're in this cage, you know, you've got like, I think there's like a 65 hour time limit on. So you can take your time. But at the start I was standing next to a guy and he's like you're going to want to put your elbows out. People are just like ramming and pushing and it's just. It's like, guys, we're going to be out there for, like, days, actual days, like, what's happening? And they all just go so fast at the start down this main street. It's nuts. And it's kind of like a carnival going on beside you and everybody's just so into it and it seems incredible. But then the actual race, like, once you start to get inside the island, I. You run around. Now, I may have this slightly wrong, but I think you run around about three crater rims of volcanoes. When I was running it, one of the volcanoes in the distance was actually erupting. And like, I've always wanted to see that. That's one of. I love volcanoes. It's one of my kind of the things. I just. I think they're incredible and I've always wanted to see one erupting. And I didn't see a thing because I was so busy looking at my feet. And my husband said that he could see all of these runners, just the silhouettes of them with this incredible kind of red sky and this eruption happening behind them. So I was very gutted to learn that I missed out on that. But anyway, so you run around these volcano rims and there's like, you end up in places where they can only rescue you by helicopter. There is no other way out. And it's just. It's just intense and amazing and, you know, like, when you look at the finishing times, compared to something like the utmb, you know, the. I mean, I don't know what the top men are doing, but like the top woman, instead of doing it in like 27 hours, you know, they're like 30, 32 hours. Like, it is. It is very technical and, and very difficult, but also just the most incredible environment to be in. I would love to go back and have another go.

It sounds incredible. It sounds fantastic. What, you know, you say that you can only get pulled out by a helicopter. What, you know, is, is it clearly marked? Is the route obvious or is it really tricky from a navigation point of view as well?

I mean, it's pretty clearly marked.

You're. I would say it is clearly marked if you're still compos mentis.

But not if you were hallucinating and seeing Cliff Richards selling ice creams on the corner.

Yeah, I do tend to see people. It's true. I see a lot of people when I hallucinate. I think yeah, just. You just have to. It's a marked race, it's not a navigation race, but you just have to kind of keep. Make sure that you are looking for the markers. Most of it's perfectly marked, but there are a few areas where you're kind of like, huh, am I going to see another marker? And then you kind of, you know, a few steps on. You do. I mean, at one point in that race, I had to change my head torch battery and got completely turned around and actually started running in the opposite direction the way that I was meant to go.

Oh, no.

I know. It's just like, I don't know where to go. I don't know what's happening. Like, I just. This was, you know, second night and I was just like, I just don't know what to do. And so I just stood still until the next runner came along. And the next runner happened to be someone that I had met in TransGrand Canaria like two years before. And it was just like, he was like, Sophie. And I was like, Michael. And I was like, oh, my God, please help me. I don't know where to go. So he rescued me from that situation, turned me around, put me in the right direction and sent me on my way, basically. But yeah, it is, you know, just some of the flora and fauna that you see on that island. It's kind of like being on the set of Lost. Like, it is just insane.

Fantastic. Well, I love traveling and that just sounds to me like an incredible bucket list experience to do. Whether I can get around that is an entirely different question.

But five hours, you've got time to have a sleep, you've got time to like, there's like food that they put on everywhere.

It's really.

I mean, if you were happy to take your time, it would be quite a delicious experience.

This is definitely going on the bucket list now. And you mentioned hallucinations that you do suffer from hallucinations. What do you think is the most amusing hallucination that you've experienced during one of your ultras?

Oh, so I think so. I've run the UTMB five times and I ran into Chamonix one night. So you descend off the last mountain, you descend in. You know, it's the second night and I ran kind of hit the road and I ran past this restaurant and it was totally packed with people. Just like lights were on, people were drinking, people were dancing, and it was just completely rammed. I mean, it must have been about 1 o' clock in the morning, 2 o'. Clock, in the morning I was like, what are they doing?

I was like, okay, all right.

Then obviously having a great time. And I kind of, you know, carried on down the road and then I turned around and it was a completely dark building. I was like, oh, okay, cool.

It's really interesting, isn't it, because people seem to get hallucinations in very, very different ways. Some don't seem to experience it at all. And have you found that they've got worse over as you've kind of gone further and further, or do they get better as you get more and more competent at going further and further?

I've never been past two nights, so the longest I've been out for was that first UTMB, which was 40 hours. And there were definitely hallucinations. Then I find for me, it happens in the second night. First night's fine. But as I've done more and more, they happen later, definitely later and later. And I, you know, I don't mind them. I kind of, I can, you know, for me, they're never scary or worrying. I do think really important to find out what type of wildlife is where you are going to run, because like, on Reunion, I saw unbelievably, there were hallucinations, but unbelievably large snails.

Oh.

And, you know, you're in a tropical environment like that. I think it's important to know what actually is going to exist there and what is not.

Yes. If you start seeing tigers, then that would be worrying, I would imagine.

Yeah, exactly. Or there's like, there's a story of a woman who was doing one of the, like, thousand mile runs around the, around the block in New York, and she couldn't keep moving forward because there were spider webs in front of her. So people were having to run in front of her, chopping the spider webs away.

I know Robbie was telling us about having deja vu experiences on his. On his endurance cycling and sort of, oh, yes, I've been here before, but having never, never been there before. And I did interview a Dr. Charlotte Edelston, who's a keen ultra runner, but also studies sleep. She lives in Chamonix, actually. So you may have even crossed paths at some point. And yeah, she was, she was her hallucination or somebody else's, but telling the story of seeing Cliff Richard on the. On, you know, sitting on the side of the trail singing. I think so, yeah.

Inst.

Definitely an intriguing part of ultra running. But you also mentioned that you suffered a lot with vomiting or you used to. What did you what did you do to master, you know, kind of overcome that issue?

Start slower.

Oh, okay. So nothing to do with nutrition then?

Oh yeah, no, definitely with nutrition as well.

But.

So I found, I used to find that I was fine racing in the uk, but as soon as I got to these big mountain races in Europe where predominantly you start uphill, there's a lot of competition and they're just a lot, they're a lot more stressful because, you know, they're not on home to earth and they are a bigger problem but like a bigger thing that I would then start vomiting and I was like, what is this? Is this, you know, like, I've always known that it's really important to eat, so I often come across runners who are like, oh, you know, I don't really eat ultras. Like, I have known from the start, when I first started that it is so important to put fuel and because if you don't put fuel in, Yang necessarily getting to the finish line. Um, and so I would always, you know, try and practice with my fuel and all that sort of stuff. But I found in these mountain races that it would just, I mean, it could be about three hours in and I would just not be able to keep anything down. It really kind of first affected me in that first UTMB where I probably spent, I don't know, six to eight hours throwing up. I couldn't keep water in, I couldn't keep anything down. And you know, part of that may very well be an assault issue as well because I didn't know then about, you know, making sure I was getting enough sodium and all of that sort of stuff.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

But yeah, so now I, I make sure that my start easy. I let, I let everybody go. Because if I start racing, if it's a hundred mile race and I start racing up that first hill, then food is not going to go in. And I also practice with my fueling all the time. Like, I make sure that my body is really used to getting in a lot of fuel and I've. This year I've been really, it's been amazing actually. I've really managed to bump my intake up and I've done quite a lot of short races this year because we've been in Italy. I mean, I tell you what, you want to see some fast females go and race some shorter distance and distances in Italy and it was just like, wow, you guys are amazing. But I've been, even in those short, fast, harder races, I've been trying to get in 1900 grams of carbs an hour at those higher intensities so that my body can get more used to taking in more carbohydrates and yeah, so I think managing, managing my speed at the start. I also do quite a lot of mindfulness before the race. Like I do a lot of breathing and I do a lot of. I listen to some headspace and just try and calm myself down so that I don't start already stressed with all of that pressure going on. I kind of just want to bring it back to just, you know, what, you know, what you're doing. All you have to do is run and eat and you know how to do that.

Yeah, that's really interesting, isn't it, that you've sort of worked out that actually it's as much stress related as it is, you know, it's mental rather than physical. So, yeah, I don't think I've ever heard anybody saying that, which is fascinating. And yet using the Headspace app, I can really see how that would get you in a much better mindset. I know, I know when I've had a couple of big races, I'm sure, you know, looking back now, it's probably as much about adrenaline and stress in the lead up to it as it is about the type of gel you're having or whatever. So that's fascinating. Are there any particular around the nutrition or any particular products that you particularly find yourself working better with? You know, I know everybody's different with nutrition, but any particular gels or foods that you particularly like when you're out on an ultra?

So I have a very small selection of stuff that I know that I can eat. And I have honed this down from a lot of races, trying different things and not being able to keep them in or not being able to chew them. I can't really eat a lot of sort of solid food when I run. I don't find that I produce enough saliva. So if I have any bars, it's just like a bite of that. Got rid of a lot of that sort of stuff. I. What I did come to the realization of, for me personally, I like to have a lot of the carbohydrates in my drinks because even if I can get nothing else in, if I'm drinking, I'm getting carbohydrates in. Yeah. And so recently, so I use Tailwind a lot and I love it. But over the last sort of year and a half even I've been using Morton when I race.

Right.

And I mean, that stuff's just rocket fuel you met. You drink one of those 360 sachets and 500 mils. You drink one of those an hour. You were getting 80 grams of carbohydrates just from your drink.

Fantastic. And so would you then combine that with some gels as well, if you can tolerate it or.

Right. So I pretty much have only Morton in my drinks. And then for my gels, I use apple high five gels. I find the taste of them perfectly reasonable. What I like to do as well is I like to actually decant them into a soft flask so that I don't have a whole lot of rubbish with me. But it also means that I don't necessarily have to commit to a whole jelly time. I can just have a squirt. So I find that's really helpful. I kind of know. All right, well, I've got seven gels in this soft flask. So I know that by the time. Normally it's. By the time I get to my husband again, I have to have finished that.

Otherwise.

Otherwise he'll tell me off. So I do that. And then when I see. When I see my husband at the checkpoints, I mean, I'm very lucky that he cruised me for most of my races, at least the ones he's allowed to. I then have like a fried rice with him, so just rice and like, almost like overcooked, so that it is quite wet with. Mix it with a little bit of oil and then peas and salt and a little bit of soy sauce. Because I really. I like seeing the green in there. Like, I really enjoy vegetables. And I think for me going through like a whole race, you know, like 24 hours of just. And sugar, it's just really nice to have that little breakup of savory stuff where I can see him. So he does that. And then I also, quite often, although I haven't so much lately, I have salted, boiled new potatoes. And so those, you know, I can either, if I fancy that I can either eat them at the checkpoint, or I can just like take two me as I leave so that I've just got something a little bit salty to break up the sugar. And so what do I try? The way I try and think about it is that, right, I'm predominantly. I've got to keep on top of my drinking because that's where most of my carbohydrate is coming from. Anything else on top of that is an added bonus. And that seems. That combo seems to work quite well for me, you know, like I know there are a lot of people out there that like, don't want to put a lot of sugar in and all that sort of stuff, but at the end of the day, it's the quickest, easiest way to supply your body with fuel. It's also the lightest way to carry it. You know, if you started trying to carry that amount of food in, real savory food, the weight of your backpack is going to outweigh the benefits of the food you're taking. So that, that's what, that kind of works for me. I understand that probably not everyone's cup of tea, but it means that I can get a lot of carbohydrate and.

I think that sounds like really good advice. Now, one thing we haven't touched on, which I expected to already by now, is that you've spent the majority of the last few years living out of a camper van, I believe. So how did that come about and where have you ended up living? Tell me a bit more about that.

So kind of around the time that I ran at the World Champs.

It.

Wasn'T, not long after that, if I'm honest, I kind of burnt myself out a bit. I was training a lot, you know, I was running 80, 90, 100 mile weeks plus working as a hairdresser in the salon. And we were spending every weekend trying to get to the mountains. You know, like, I used to do a training weekend where I would fly from London to Tenerife on the first.

Flight on Saturday morning.

Then I would run up halfway up the volcano, well, up to the top of the volcano, stay in the refuge overnight, run back down the other side and then fly back to be at work on Monday morning. And that was just like a normal training weekend for me. And so it just, our life became unsustainable in London. We were just knackered all of the time because we didn't really want to be there anymore. You know, we wanted to be in the mountains, but both of our jobs were there and, and we couldn't really, I don't know, we hadn't really thought about how we were going to get out. And then my husband just came home one day and just said, I think it's time we go. And I was like, oh, okay. And so we just, we kind of just got drunk and handed in the notice on our house and.

You know.

We'Re like, okay, great, we'll, we'll go then. And you know, at first we were going to like rent somewhere and maybe AMC or in Chamonix. And just do six months. And then it was like, well, maybe we'll just. We don't really know where we want to be. Let's maybe get a van and just throw a mattress in the back, you know, and live like scumbag Kiwis. So then we both went and quit our jobs and both of our jobs were just like, no, how do we keep you? And my job? So I'm a hairdresser. I work in a salon and Chelsea in London. So I fly back. Obviously, Covid put a bit of a stop to it, but I fly back and work four days every five or six weeks, depending on my racing schedule. And my husband is it, so he works remotely. And this was before people were, like, allowed to work from home. So what kind of became, let's just buy a cheap van and throw a mattress in the back of. Was like, oh, well, if we can continue to earn, we afford to buy a van and make it livable. And so what was meant to be six months is now four years and counting.

Wow. And you're in Greece at the moment. But where is this adventure taken you from and through?

So the first year we spent a.

Lot of time just chasing nice weather and driving around. You know, we went to. When we first left, we went straight to Chamonix and then it like snowed on the first day that we were there, as we were like, no.

Let'S go to Spain.

So we drove down to Spain, spent quite a lot of time around there. It's been really cool, actually, because it's meant that I've got to go and race in some places where I would not normally have ended up. So spent a lot of time in Spain and then we spent quite a lot of time in the Dolomites. I tend to do loverado each year, mainly just because I love being in the Dolomites. I cannot tell you how amazing that place is. The first time that we went there, I cried when we had to leave because it was.

It's just.

It's just so unbelievably beautiful that it is. It's. Yeah, it's a very special place to me, the Dolomites. So, yeah, you know, just a lot of time in the lumpy stuff. But we've also been to Sicily, to Sardinia, to Corsica. A lot of. A lot of mooching around France. We haven't. We were meant to go up to Norway, but Covid unfortunately put a stop to that, so we haven't kind of made it up there yet. We're in Greece currently because the van has thrown a bit of a tantrum and has decided that he needs a holiday from us. I think after throwing the last race, he was like, no, I'm done.

And so how was it living in a van through Covid? I think you had to abort at some point, didn't you?

Oh, yeah. So when Covid. Because we were planning on leaving London, so we had to go back to London for a year for my husband's job. And we lived in London in campsites, in the van, which was less than ideal. It is definitely not something that I would hurry to do again. And so we were kind of like planning to leave. And then Covid hit and it was just like, what do we do? Because the campsite shut, all of the services shut. And we. We had already kind of left at that point. We were like, oh, we'll go up to Wales and spend some time around there, and then we'll make our way to the Euro tunnel and get our thing across. And we were up in Wales and then it was like everybody descended on Wales and we were just like, no, this is not the time or the place to be somewhere like this where they're already feeling the strain of worrying about how they're going to even just care for their own people without a whole lot of people descending on them. You know, like, sure, we don't actually have somewhere to live, but this situation isn't okay. I don't want to make the people in these towns feel like they've got extra pressure by having us living there in a van. And so we actually rented a house down. We were very, very lucky that one of my friends had a house that we could rent down in Devon.

And so we went down there for.

A couple of months at the start of COVID whilst we were kind of waiting for the Eurotunnel to open back up again. And so then once we actually left the uk, it was so horrible being back at a house. Honestly, it was just like we're so used to next to each other that often, you know, wherever I was, my husband would just come and sit up, work next to me. So we were in this house that had like four bedrooms. And it was. I mean, it was beautiful, this amazing old cottage, but we're sort of like living out of two rooms.

There's a book that I used to read, my children called A Squash and a Squeeze. And it's about this lady that's complaining about her house is too small. So they had a cow and then they had a sheep, and then and then eventually, after adding all of these animals and her saying it's a squash and squeeze, they take them all out again and she's suddenly really happy that she's got a really big house. It seems a bit like that, yeah.

Honestly, there was a couple of nights where we just went and slept in the van down the street where it was parked. Then when we left, it was. You know, it was tricky being in Europe because, again, you just don't want to feel like you're imposing on other people. It was fine during the summer and we were able to, like, maneuver around. So, for example, if I had to come back to work, we would. If we were in Corsica, you know, and France was on the red list, then we would go to Sardinia for two weeks before I then flew back. So that I was in a green moss country for two weeks before I then flew back. So there was a lot of maneuvering around. Winter was a bit trickier. We spent a lot of time in Switzerland because they seem to have kind of the easiest restrictions for George and I, really, the only thing that we really cared about was being able to exercise. Like, don't mind if you shut the restaurants, don't mind about any of that sort of stuff. But I just did not want to be somewhere where they were like, yep, sorry, but you're only allowed 100 metres from your house because the van is an amazing place to live. But we can live in that very, very small space because we spend 90% of our time outside of it. So to be somewhere where the restrictions were, you know, really severe and that you had to stay inside your home or you were only allowed out to walk your dogs, you know, for us in the van, I just. I don't know how it would have worked and I also don't know how the authorities would have felt about it either. So we just tried to make sure that we, you know, weren't in anyone's way. And Switzerland had had reasonably lenient restrictions, so we were still able to ski tour. You know, their ski fields were open, so we were still able to kind of get outside and. And have the winter that we wanted to at the start, which I think probably was quite hard for a lot of other people to watch, actually knowing that they were not allowed to go out and do it. But, you know, this is part of the reason that we live in a van is so that we can have these experiences and so that we can move around. And it's a trade off, right? Like you live in a tin can so that you can go and be in the outdoors all the time.

Yeah, well. And also, I mean, let's be honest, you probably didn't have that many options. And I mean, Laura Siddall, my usual co host, although she's having a bit of a break at the moment for. For her racing, was spending half her life in New Zealand, half of it in Girona. She went to the States for two weeks for a race and Covid kicked off during that time and she hasn't been back to New Zealand since. So she's still got a whole load of stuff there and, yeah, can't get back. So you probably didn't have a huge amount of choice in terms of what you did. Anyway, one of the positives I heard you talking about on another podcast was during that Covid time, animals coming out to play more. So there was definitely some positives around Covid as well. Tell me a little bit about that and your experience.

Oh, I mean, it was just incredible. Right. Like you. Because there was just a lot less traffic and there was a lot less people. I think the mountains. The mountains got some time to heal. You know, they. The animals. There were so many more animals that came out and it just. I think it really. There were. There were a lot of positives around it. I think it's, you know, we are quite hard on this world and I think that it's getting a little bit of a break from us relentlessly trampling. It might not, you know, it certainly wasn't very much fun for the humans, but I think probably the animals quite enjoyed it.

Yeah, I would agree. Now, I said I wanted to circle back to women in ultra running again. I was listening to an interview of yours. I was really shocked by some of the negative experiences you've had as a female runner and.

Yeah.

So just tell me a little bit about those negative experiences and how you think we can, you know, is ultra running and running in general getting better or. And, you know, some places worse than others?

Yeah, I've had a few corkers, actually. I've had. I was running a race initially and I think I was probably in, you know, like fifth or sixth place. And the race unfortunately met up with one of the shorter races at one point, and there was a man in front of me who just would not let me pass. Like there was nothing that I tried asking. I, you know, tried in Italian. I tried everything, you know, and it was just. It was sort of. He just would not let me pass. And in the end, another man behind me put his hand in my back Yelled at the guy and pushed me past and just said, go and enjoy and run well. And, you know, but it's just. It's just so frustrating. It really is this affront that men seem to have that a woman might be faster than them. In that same race, one of my friends got pushed from a trail and she sprained her ankle. I saw her at one of the checkpoints and I was like, what, Are you okay?

What's happened?

And she said, oh, a man pushed me off the side of the trail. She ran past him, and then he decided he didn't like that and he ran back past her and pushed her over the side. She sprained her ankle, and that was.

The end of her race.

And he didn't even stop to see if she was okay.

It was just.

It's just really frustrating, I think, you know, there are definitely.

It's definitely. It's definitely getting better, I would say.

It's definitely, you know, like, I'm having less. Like you're having less of those experiences. At least I am. I'm not sure what other women are experiencing, but it's just. I don't know, it's just really sad. It's really sad.

It is.

And in this day and age, it just. It strikes me as absolutely unbelievable. Are there parts of the world that are worse than other parts? Is it kind of more of a cultural thing?

In some parts, I would definitely say yes. From my experience, there are definitely countries that I think the men take more affront to being passed by women than they do in other countries. But, you know, I haven't raced. There's only so many countries that I've raced in. I do find that a lot of men want to tell you how to do things. Just really annoying. I mean, I don't know. My third utmb, I was running really well, and this guy was running with me, decided to tell me that I was going too fast. He's like, oh, you're running too fast. You're running at this pace. You know, my wife, last year, she did it in this pace. You're going to go too fast and righty radar. And, you know, like, I was quite new at the whole thing at that point, and I just spent the next, I don't know, six hours going, oh, have I gone out too fast? You know, like, what? Oh, maybe he was right. I mean, I passed both of them later at a checkpoint that they'd both dropped out at, and I. I think he told his wife what he'd said to me, and she sent him over and made him apologize. But, you know, at that point, it's too late. I am really pleased that she told him off, but at that point, I've spent six hours thinking that I've done something wrong. And actually, it's got nothing to do with you. Why have you got to comment about anything to do with me? You know, I had a similar situation not that long ago, actually, where I was. And I will admit, I did start too fast. I'm very, very happy to admit that I actually did start far too fast. I was going. We were just doing a VK for training, and it was the one in fully where it's like, super, super steep. I think it's one of. I think it's the steepest vk. And this older guy came up behind me, and my husband was, like, a few steps ahead of me, and he was like, oh, you started too fast. I was like, okay, you know, like, you're never gonna. You. You know, you just. It's too fast. All right? And then he walked two steps up to my husband.

Didn't say past him.

And I'm like, I mean, it's okay if you want to tell both of us. Why on earth do you feel to tell me and not my husband? And I. Oh, my God. I tell you what. I was furious by the time I got to the top. Very lucky that he wasn't there, because I was just so furious about the fact that this man had decided that it was appropriate to tell a woman that she had started too fast, but not tell the man that he. That he also asked a couple of steps ahead. Can we just stop telling people what to do or how to do it?

Like, please?

Yeah. It is astonishing that that is still happening, isn't it?

I mean, you know, it's going to continue to do so until women have got the same exposure, the same kind of products, you know, all of that sort of stuff. Like, women just don't get as much support as men do in these fields. And I just, you know, we just got to keep fighting and keep exposing woman as, you know, these amazing athletes that they are.

Yeah.

So I just want to. I just want to ask you one last question, if that's okay. You've mentioned already how books were really important. In fact, you mentioned a book by Lisa Tumeti, I think, or on Lisa Tometi. But I always ask guests of the podcast, what books have you found really influenced you, you find yourself recommending? So maybe it's that one, maybe it's some more as well. What Books have you found really helpful?

Do you know what? I devoured everything I could find back when I first did a lot of reading around running, Scott Jurek's books and in fact his book Is It North? I actually recommend a lot to people to give to their crews because I think it is a really interesting. It's really interesting to have the perspective of his wife who is crewing and just kind of how they didn't really get it that right. So I think that that's a really interesting book. But I mean, what else? Obviously, you know, I was in that whole Born to Run era, which I think was a fantastic book. And actually his second book I really enjoyed as well. What was that called?

It was called Natural Born Heroes because.

They talk a lot about foraging and all of that sort of stuff. I really enjoyed that. And Rise of the Ultra Runners is one I've read recently. Adrahamson, again, really enjoyed that. So many of them, actually, that is.

The Rise of the Ultra Runners is brilliant. What was the Lisa Tametti one that you mentioned at the start?

I think it's called Running Hot.

Running Hot? Oh, I've got.

It's been.

I mean, it's been like. It's been like 15 years since I read it. But that was really interesting because that was not necessarily so much about. I think she ran bad water in it actually. But it was just about her journey into Ultra Running as well. And she, you know, goes on this kind of across the desert run with a couple of guys and it all gets a bit hairy. But I just remember reading that and going, you know, why, if she can do that stuff, why, why can't I?

Yeah, amazing, Amazing. Sophie, it's been an absolute pleasure to chat to you. There is so much great advice here, so much good content, some new books. I've read some of Scott Durek's books, but not North. So that's another one for the bucket list as well. Reading list even. But yeah, there is so much great stuff here. It's been an absolute pleasure to chat to you and thank you so much for your time and I wish you every success with your running in the years ahead.

Thank you very much for having me.

You'll follow Sophie on Instagram and Twitter and the handle is sophieamygrant on both platforms. So, Clare, what did you make of that interview with Sophie?

It was great. I think, like you, you know, covered so many things, I think, with. With her, you know, right from the. From the very beginning of kind of where she came from. It was really interesting to Hear kind of her journey into ultra distance and some of the key kind of learning things. I think, you know, some of those rung kind of rang true with me in terms of little pitfalls that you end up into or that, that little competitive streak, which was the first 10k into something. Something a little bit more, which was. Which was really interesting. And also to hear obviously from my perspective, to hear a little bit about sort of the nutritional side of things. She touched a little bit on kind of, you know, the vomiting and where she's really tailored her own nutrition, which really sat really well with me in terms of her tweaking and changing her own nutrition to kind of find something to suit her and even more so at the end, actually, which we can, we can talk about in a second about. Really interesting to hear kind of how females are being treated in some of these sports as well, which is quite interesting. In some of the ultra events, you know, what she's sort of come across.

That really surprised me, that piece actually, in the sense that, I mean, obviously I wouldn't necessarily witness it being a bloke, but I mean, have you ever witnessed. I mean, that just really surprised me given that the triathlon world that I know has never been anything but amazingly friendly.

So.

Have you ever experienced anything like that?

No, I was actually really surprised by it, I think. And interestingly, I think as women and women that I guess sort of competing in the field where I do, maybe that's just kind of the area that I see it. But generally triathlon is really, really, really friendly, as you say. And I always find that male triathletes, female triathletes are generally pretty, pretty friendly. In fact, I'd go as far as to say is that male triathletes are usually more friendly than female. And I think that's our competitive nature. And it's very interesting sometimes when you're particularly in competition where you're racking up how girls speak to each other and I believe it's like very competitive. I think that's kind of where it comes from. So I've never really seen that male side in terms of, you know, maybe it is a, you know, competitive nature for males. They can't see, you know, a fee, a female chicking them, I think is the word, isn't it?

Yeah, that's it. That is it. And I wonder if it's also a very much here a cultural thing in that, you know, perhaps in some of the countries that, you know, people tend to frequent for ultra running, that it's More of a. It's a different culture, you know, and perhaps that's, that's why, because ultra running again, I mean like I'm, you know, other than sort of. Well, I have my first organized ultra coming up and so. But you know, my impression of everything I've read about ultrarunning is that the ultra running community is incredibly friendly and incredibly welcoming and down to earth. And so yeah, it really, really surprised me that she experienced that. Have you, have you ever run any ultra marathons?

No, but I'd absolutely, I'd love to. So when she talked about the marathon to Saab, that's something for years and years and that was kind of very much when I first got into Ironman triathlon that was on my radar. Like that was one of my things I kind of really wanted to do. So I think that's still there in terms of something I'd like to have a go at. And who knows, maybe the end of this year, beginning of next year, you might, you might see me running one.

I think there is a Cornish one that is begging to. Begging to be taken on.

Well, I think, I think we might just see the first, first appearance at one. Quite interesting actually. I think over lockdown. A lot of people have, you know, we talked about, you know, before kind of where triathletes have been doing sort of little races here and there that things they wouldn't necessarily do. But it's been quite interesting because lots of people also had a go at ultra running or more kind of, you know, coastal runs. And I think Sophie was talking about the endurance life events down in the Dorset coast and things. So that having grown up in Dorset, I remember doing some of those events as well when they were not the ultra ones but some of the off grade ones. And it does really kind of, kind of capture you I think when you do some of those events. Thank God, actually I could, I really want to do some more of these. But it has been really interesting to see, you know, more athletes just getting into something slightly different I think since kind of COVID and lockdowns.

Well, even, even Ironman organized an ultra, ultra marathon, I recall. I suppose it was, you know, it's a good way of. It's a good event for them to organize when triathlon is not possible because yeah, ultra running, you're all out on your own in the woods somewhere, aren't you? Yeah, I thought it was really interesting. And the last thing, what did you make of her lifestyle of living life in a campervan?

Yeah, it was interesting Wasn't it? I can see the jaw and the pool actually, to go and do that. And from her lifestyle, having worked in London and things like, I can really. I can really kind of see that. And I think, like, all of these things, we kind of realize that we don't need all of those other things in our life sometimes. Like actually the simplistic nature of, you know, kind of living in lots of different places and traveling around and. Yeah, it was, it was really interesting.

I thought so. I thought that when she said that, you know, because living in a campervan, you spend 80% of your time outdoors. That's fantastic. Except perhaps when it's absolutely chucking it down and then you're like, yeah, I suppose then you're grateful to retreat to the camper van, aren't you?

Yeah, I think a lot of people that have been buying, buying tents and camping over the last year as well have probably. That probably rings true with them. It's an amazing idea. And I think, you know, being outdoors does, does certainly, you know, even from a mental health perspective is amazing, isn't it? But yeah, there's a, there's a part, there's a part of it that also comes with having to pack up the whole time and move somewhere else. And, you know, living in a campervan is great, isn't it? Because it's got, you know, so many sort of drawers and doors and everything's kind of got its place. But when you do move around, having done it a few times, it's the packing up and unpacking. Yeah. And having done holidays like that, I'm not sure whether it was a holiday after all of that at the end.

Well, if nothing else, it makes you appreciate your house when you go home.

Yeah, it does. I was really interested in her, in her obviously from the nutrition perspective when she first started and she was talking about, you know, she said it quite kind of blase. Well, yeah, I used to vomit quite a lot when I was like, really? You know, and because you were talking about it to start off with, and then she just found that kind of her own way, didn't she, really, with. With different nutritional products and I mean, certainly if you do long distance wrath and what she was saying about you just get fed up and sick of sweet things and I can imagine for much longer distance in terms of ultra racing, you know, why you would want to have something that's more solid sometimes. I know she talked about, you know, just having things like the, the rice with the, with the soy sauce that Nice salty sort of taste. And all the potatoes with a bit of salt wasn't actually for nutrition. It might have been a top up, but actually that just having something else other than sweet the whole time.

Yeah, well, and it's another opportunity to get some more salt in as well, isn't it? So I've certainly seen that with the bit of ultra, because with long distance triathlon you can kind of mix it up a bit and go for bars and then gels and it's not so bad. Whereas with running, if you're just having your traditional gel after gel, it just becomes too much. So certainly I've gotten well with spring energy gels in the past, but just because they're like, I mean they're like baby food basically blitzed up, but they're just not as sweet and. Yeah, but yeah, no, fascinating interview, Fascinating lady. And yeah, plenty more to follow on Sophie. Well, Claire, it's been absolutely great to catch up with you again. Thank you so much for joining us back on the Tribathlon podcast. Good luck with the new coaching and also the, the events that are coming up and hopefully I might see you as an ultramarathon at some point in the future.

Who knows? Who knows?

Great to catch up again. Thank you.

Thanks.

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