Ultra Challenges with Damian Hall

Foreign.

Athlon podcast finding out how ordinary people do extraordinary things.

If we had to travel 100 miles now because something awful was going to happen maybe to our family 100 miles away, we would do that. We would all do it. So we can do it. It's kind of, how much do you want to do it?

That was Damien hall and this episode is Ultra Challenges.

So in this episode I got the.

Opportunity to chat to the incredible ultra runner, Damian Hall. Now, Damien hall came from a fell walking background and sort of started getting into marathons as a result of his career in journalism and went from running his first marathon dressed as a toilet to doing his first ultra. But he came into ultra running fairly late on, but has achieved such a phenomenal amount of success since then. You know, he's done things like the Coastal path, Southwest Coastal Path in a phenomenal 10 days at 610 miles. And he recently set a fastest known time on the Pennine Way. That's 268 miles in a remarkable 61 hours and 34 minutes. Absolutely incredible. And I got the opportunity to chat to Damien about how you can get up to running 100 miles and actually far beyond that and what it takes from a nutritional perspective, a mental perspective to be able to achieve that. So it was brilliant opportunity to kind of dive into the mindset of a top ultra runner. I hope you enjoy it.

This podcast is brought to you by 33fuel.com. Now, if you're like me, when you're doing your endurance sport, you want to avoid those products that look, when you look at the ingredients, they look like a chemistry experiment. But it can often be difficult to.

Avoid them and still have the energy for the sport.

So 33fuel.com produce an amazing set of products, whether it be gels, bars or powders, but packed full of awesome superfoods so that you can not only get faster and fitter, but you can also get healthier at the same time. If you listen to this podcast, at the end, I'll give you a discount code to get a nice saving off your first 33 fuel.com order. So check it out@33fuel.com personally, I absolutely love their products, particularly their Chia Seed gel.

This podcast is brought to you by Innovate Running Shoes. Anything that's good enough for Damien hall and Nikki Spinks to run the incredible distances along the trails that they do in and, and, and actually sing the praises of is certainly going to be good enough for me. But I have to say, I've really enjoyed running in The Terra ultra shoe. It is a fantastic shoe, really light with fantastic grip. Just a great shoe. And so Innovate do a whole range of shoes and a load of range of clothing as well. So check it out@innovate.com that's in o v-8.com innov8.com I know you won't be disappointed and also hang on to the end of this podcast and I'll give you a discount code too.

So, Damian, welcome to the Tribeathlon podcast. Thank you very much for joining me. I've been exploring all of the stuff that you've been doing over the last few years, which has been absolutely incredible. And I want to dive into a load of the races that you've done. But before I do, just for those people that haven't heard of you, can you tell us a little bit about your story? How did you get into running and how did you get into specifically ultra running and some of the trials that you've done? Tell people the kind of amazing things that you've been doing over the last few years.

Well, firstly, thank you, thank you for having me on. It's a real honor. And yeah, if I do sound a bit, a bit hoarse or a bit, I'm not, I'm not sure how my voice sounds. But yeah, I'm still recovering from a bit of, a, bit of a recent long run that we'll probably, I guess we'll probably talk about at some point. But definitely, yes, I'm still a little, I'm a little bit, a little bit broken and weary from that. But, but I'll do my best. So, yeah, when did I get into running? I suppose, Yeah, I enjoyed running at school, but I wasn't, yeah, I didn't go to a school that promoted athletics. It was all about football and rugby. And if I'm honest, I loved playing football. I was useless at it. I was usually subbed for the school team. But I desperately wanted to be, you know, to play football. And I became, you know, I was so into football that I, you know, my first real job was a football journalist. So it was a genuine, genuine passion of mine. But I was raised, yeah, outdoorsy parents, not sporty, but outdoorsy. Nearly all our holidays were camping holidays, hill walking holidays. And I think like a lot of people, you know, when you're a teenager and early twenties, you, you neglect a lot of that and it doesn't seem so exciting. But then I went traveling. I sort of jacked in my job in London and went traveling in the year 2002 had a really exciting trip around the world. But as I was on that trip I started to fall back in love with kind of, I suppose, yeah, nature, being outdoors and especially kind of trekking. Multi day walks suddenly became really exciting, especially when I ended up in New Zealand. And they've got all these amazing walks there with these hut, they have these hut systems so you can really easily, you know, do a walk, stay in a hut, do a walk, stay in a hut and you've got mountains all around you. And that was, yeah, I can see now that was a kind of a bit of a life changing sort of spell. And I ended up living in Australia for a long time and I would walk, you know, walk there most weekends, go bushwalking. But I was still, yeah, still playing football. I wasn't a runner. And then I came back to Britain in 2010 and just kind of on a whim, actually I was living in Bath and the Bath Half Marathon is a really big event there. So you see it advertised everywhere and I thought, well, you know, why don't I sign up for that? I was feeling a little bit unfit. So 2011, I did the Bath half for the first time or my first, yeah, first organized race in school. And yeah, just absolutely loved it. I love the sort of camaraderie with the crowds and just pushing yourself a bit and the euphoria on finishing and straightaway kind of thought, I want to do more of this type of thing. And yeah, the next year I was doing my first marathon and later that year my first ultra marathon because I was sort of, yeah, I was already kind of in, in deep. And I was also working as a journalist. So often these have been magazine stories and there's actually a magazine that sent me on my first ultramarathon. They kind of called my bluff. I was wanting. I'd run my first marathon dressed as a toilet and I was sort of to raise money for water aid. And yeah, their idea or your idea?

I know you've got a wicked sense of humor.

So that was my idea actually. I just thought my friends, I think I had to raise a thousand pounds maybe. And I thought my friends weren't going to sponsor me unless I did something, you know, a bit more wacky. So yeah, people shouting, you look a bit flushed, mate. It was funny at first, less so towards the end and especially when you really need the toilet. But that was really exciting. And I remember pestering a magazine to let me write a story and they sort of called my bluff and said, well, we want a running story from you, but we're going to send you on your first ultramarathon. So, yeah, so later that year I did that and that was, yeah, potentially another sort of sliding doors moment. Or at least maybe I would have gone down that road anyway. But yeah, I just. I love that even more than the marathon and I suppose continued on from there.

What was that first ultra race that you did?

It's one called the Wall. So it follows the route of Hadrian's Wall from Carlisle to Newcastle. It was actually a decent event, but it was a bit more road running than I would do now because I don't think they could actually run on Hadrian's Wall itself because it's quite sensitive. World heritage listed of course. But yeah, good event. And I actually ran over two days, 69 miles. But yeah, both those runs, I think were the longest I'd ever run. And I had this wonderful moment towards the end approaching Newcastle. I just felt like I can't run anymore. I was just walking. I was just walking in. I just thought no one could run in this state. You know, my legs are too sore, I got blisters, everything hurts. But I am going to do it. I'm still going to do it. It's just going to be a bit slower. I'm going to walk it. And then I could see the finish line because it was one of the bridges and suddenly I was running again and running quite fast. And that stayed with me for a long time because that fascinated me of like my body sent me messages that I simply couldn't run anymore. But actually I really could and that's fascinating. I don't know if you know the book Endure by Alex Hutchinson.

I do. Brilliant book.

Yes. Yeah, it's. It's wonderful and it's full of. It's full of the same stuff really, that is like do it. Does the mind for mind fatigue first or does the order muscles fatigue or does the body fatigue? Where does fatigue start? What, what's, you know, what limits us really? And it's fascinating. And I learned even then that, you know, I had. I had lazily decided I couldn't do something when actually I was perfectly capable of doing a bit more. So, yeah, that just fascinated me. And from there, yeah, I was jumping into longer and longer races from.

Yeah, well, I definitely want to come back to mental techniques because I think the Endure book is fantastic. But particularly with ultras, there seems to be quite. It seems to be a common thread. So we'll come back to that for sure. So you start Getting into ultra. I mean by the way going from a half marathon to a marathon which actually did it even dressed as a toilet in what was it something like 3:17 or something like that.

It was good research. Yes.

So that's a really quick first marathon dressed as a toy as well as I can see. But then to go straight into an ultra you've obviously got a really good level of fitness when you were coming into this. But that sounds like an injury waiting to happen but obviously didn't. So was it, you know, how did you get into. You know accelerate the distances so quickly I think.

Yeah. I can see now that you know you see other people who are new to running and there is. It is quite common for people to get injured when they sort of jump up. But I think I was lucky in that I had this. I was playing football a lot and that's almost, you know, that's almost your interval sessions. I play kind of three times a week so I had some fitness from that and kind of that's kind of interval sessions. So your body works quite hard in football. You know stop start, stop start. So there's a bit of strength there. But also I was still really into trekking so you know most weekends would do a bit of hill walking me and my wife and I would still get away at times and kind of I was. I walked the coast to coast path and the Pennine way so. So I was really into these long days out and multi days out with a pack I suppose. So I must have had some kind of strength from that I suppose that was you know, making me more injury resistant. Yeah and then if I'm honest I did. I did get a coach quite early after my first race I was uncoached but I got one for my second race. It was sort of a happy accident really. I met was as a journalist at a sort of launch event for a new. For a race Race to the Stones and there was a. There was a running coach there as well and we just got talking and then I had this idea of why doesn't he coach me from you know as a magazine story for that for the race. So that was helpful that you know. And then I think he coached me for a couple more, you know just set me a plan and left me to it really. But that was good to get that guidance early on because it's quite. Can see to new ultra runners. There's a lot of books for the marathon and there are some books now for ultras but at the time there really weren't and it was a bit of a. Yeah, it's a bit of a guessing game and it's a, you know, Facebook. Facebook groups aren't always, you know, the smartest place to ask for advice, but.

Yeah, no, the modern day man down the pub, isn't it?

Yes, yeah.

So in terms of. So then, I mean, you've kind of brushed over the fact that you've done a few ultras since then and some amazing achievements, but I mean, let's kind of pick out a few. So you've. I mean, I'm just looking through the list. Where was the first sort of. Were they all kind of monumental experiences or was the. Was the first. You know, what were the first. What were the ones that stand out? I suppose.

Yeah. Do you mean in that early stage or just sort of overall gradually through.

You know, which ones have you. Because there's so many you've done. I mean, you've obviously done. You've got FKTs in things like the Kate Roth Challenge, which I'd love to talk about. You've just set an FKT for the Pennine Way. But, you know, tell me about the significant ones because there's so many on your, on your list. Which one, which ones are the ones that really stand out?

Yeah, definitely. I think get my first hundred miler, which was only my third race. Again, the journalism thing made it sort of. So, you know, I do a story for a magazine on running 100k, they're not going to be interested in me running 50k. They're only interested in me running more because there's got to be a sense of jeopardy in the story, essentially. Like, can I do this? That makes a much better story. So I think it did shoot me up quicker than maybe some people would or maybe most sensible people. So my third race was a hundred miler. Now it was locally. To me it was the Cotswold way century. It's where I grew up in the Cotswolds and live at the bottom of the Cotswolds again now. So that was helpful. It was my familiar terrain. I could train on it, I could recce it a bit, but I was fascinated in the idea of running 100 miles like that, that massive round number. It's quite, it's quite intriguing. Um, so, but in that race, yeah, I did get. I was third, I was third in the race. Um, but it was, you know, it wasn't a competitive field, like, you know, like a lot of the races I've done now. But still it makes you think, okay, Something about this suits me. So from a competitive level, it went well. Also, just from an experience level, I was like, wow. You know, it was pretty uncomfortable for a few hours, but we got through it and the feeling of finishing was amazing. But probably the more significant stepping stone after that was I'd already signed up for the Spine Race by then, so I was getting quite carried away again. Often it was simply like, I could get a free place as a journalist. We couldn't afford, you know, we couldn't afford to do this race. You know, it wouldn't be fair on my family, but I can do it as a journalism assignment where I pretty much make a loss because, you know, your expenses aren't covered and you're away for a week. But, yeah, I was in the Spine Race, which was ridiculous, really.

And for those that don't know the.

Distance of the Spine race, officially it's 268 miles in winter on the Pennine Way. And part of my enthusiasm was I'd already hiked the Pennine Way. I actually written a guidebook for it. So I already had this passion for the Pennine Way and this quite new race, this was only the third year it was happening, was really intriguing and really grabbed people's attention because it was just so absurd, you know, to go in January when it's dark most of the time and it's just kind of. Well, in an ideal world, it's snowy, but, you know, it's the British winter, so actually it's probably just wet, cold and miserable and, you know, and you're in the dark. So it's like, I don't know who would do that race? You know, I kind of. I've jokingly said a few times, it's. It's a race for people who hate themselves. So, of course, as soon as I'd done it, I went back the next year and did it again. But, yeah, I had an incredible experience on there. And it was mostly just the goodwill from other people, and you actually saw very few other runners, but it was the staff. And what amazed me was people who weren't anything to do with the race would come out in the middle of the night or the middle of nowhere and give you a bit of cake or give you some water or. That was just so touching. And it still happens every year there now. There's even a farm high up in the race that insist you come in and they give you, like, bacon sandwiches and tea on their sofa, and they refuse to take any money. And it's just incredible that Human spirit. And it's quite easy nowadays to feel quite gloomy about the world. I think you only need to look at Twitter or look at the news, but actually, there's all these moments of kindness going on around us, actually. So it just made me feel good about the world, if I'm honest. I mean, maybe I'm glossing over a few things, but, you know, it brought out my kind of inner hippie, I suppose. And, yeah, it was wonderful.

It does sound like an amazing Race. And of course, so this one is. So that's the same route that you've taken to do the Pennine. It's the same Pennine Way that you've just gone and set the FKT for, is that right?

Yes. So, yeah, I've got a fair bit of history with the Pennine Way now. So I hiked it the first time and then I did the Spine Race twice after that. Second time. Yeah, I started to look into other races and stuff, but I. But like a lot of people, I always love watching the Spine Race online and following the dots, and I've actually worked on it twice in kind of their media team. So it's really become a, you know, a part of my calendar. But I've always won. Well, not always, but I've wondered ever since writing that first guidebook. I heard about a guy called Mike Hartley who had run the Pennine Way in 2 days and 17 hours and 20 minutes and 15 seconds, and that record stood for 31 years. And not. Not surprising, really, but I remember I was barely a runner. I think I'd just done that first half marathon when I first read about that and put it in my own guidebook and was just blown away by that idea. But then I gradually, over time, you know, it sowed a seed and I did. I did another fkt. My first. First one was on the Southwest coast path and that went well. And then. And then just afterwards, I remember the drive home, actually, with my two friends who were helping me, and we were discussing the kind of what next. And of course, the Pennine Way was put in there on the list. But each year I'd put it off because it was not the distance, because I'd covered the distance, but the. The quality of the record, how good the record was, was quite intimidating. But gradually, I suppose, confidence, I built confidence. And actually, if I'm honest, the lockdown. The lockdown has played a key role because I've got no races, so I would often have a race in the way and go, I can't do the pen I'm way because I've got a race and really I was happy to put it off but then I was like I've got no excuses left, I've got to give it a bash. Which is, yeah, what I did last week.

So that's it. So 268 miles in, is it 61 hours and 34 minutes.

Strictly speaking when you run it it's more like 260 miles. It's a technicality but on the official route there are some detours and so you don't actually need to do all two, six, eight miles. But I've done exactly the same route as John Kelly and Mike Hartley and we've sort of discussed it a lot to make sure we did the same thing otherwise it would all be a bit messy. But yeah, 260 miles.

Yeah, 61 hours and that is, and is that, I mean I'm gonna have to talk to you about sleep as well at some point because that's clearly incredible. Part of what you do for something like that with 61 hours, I mean how much sleep are you getting during that 61 hours?

So when Mike Hartley did his attempt he didn't sleep at all. And when John Kelly did his, he was having a lot of tummy, tummy issues. So he ended up sleeping for about two hours actually in about four, four or five goes. So I was, I started out with an open mind. I wasn't planning to sleep, I didn't have a sort of sleep put in the schedule but I was expecting to probably have to do a power nap or two in the end I lay down three times. One of those times I didn't sleep and the other two I got some sleep. So I think I probably slept 35 or 40 minutes in total.

Incredible, isn't it? I know that sleep is obviously we always talk about sleeping so valuable for recovery. How do you deal with that lack of sleep?

Well, yeah, I don't want to glamorize it because I heard an expert recently say that kind of going without a night's sleep is like a mild concussion. So that's probably why I'm a bit slow witted at the moment. But yeah, I mean the first thing, I guess a lot of the races I've done so most people who run 100 mile race they will go all the way through the night. So it's fairly familiar to me to go once through a night. And really, I mean number one thing is stay on top of your nutrition, you know, low mood, eat food like as soon as you feel tired or something. Normally you're just under fueled a bit because you're burning so many calories. So eat and drink then it might be okay. I still a bit subpar. Yeah. If I'm honest it's. It's stick some caffeine in and usually maybe it's just slow down sometimes as well or maybe a little bit warm, take off a layer. It's just being a bit careful and thoughtful, bit patient and normally that kind of approach will get you through one night. Not much problem I would say if you're. And I think also the fitter you are, the kind of easier it is for your body. But yes, I always thought the second night would be, would be more of an issue but it was actually I started having power naps the next morning. I think I'd sort of. One. Yeah, one, one at about seven that was yeah about 10 minutes and then I tried to have one in the mid afternoon I think which didn't work. But then I did have you know, 30, 30 minutes plus in the kind of stuff seven or eight at night and that helped me but definitely in that, in that second night I got very, very slow and sluggish and I did actually really want another power nap but I kind of pushed through I suppose sometimes it's yeah getting sugar in as well but then also almost all. Well I think every single time when this, when the sunrise comes or at least it gets light, that always revives me to an extent and I think that's the same with most runners. So it was just hanging in there really till the sun came and of course at the moment it's getting light at like 4, 4:30. So yeah, that was actually a big moment. The final day was there and you know, the weather was better and I do remember going boom. Suddenly I felt, felt good again. So. So it is amazing what your body just because you feel bad, you don't just keep going, keep going, keep sliding down that sort of down those rails. It is a kind of. This doesn't help the podcast, does it? But I'm doing a sort of uppy downy symbol. So sometimes it is just hanging in there for a bit and remembering it doesn't always get worse and things, things turn around and when you did the.

So you did the southwest coastal path, didn't you? I think again that was another FKT which I think so 630 miles in 10 days and 15 hours which is, I mean I'm very fond. We've got a place down in Cornwall. I'm extremely fond of the Cornish coastline and that we do a lot of walking. I do a lot of my running down there. It's absolutely stunning, but it is also brutal. But I think you were sort of getting like two or three hours sleep typically every day through that, weren't you? But that must really sort of catch up with you after 10 days.

Yeah, yeah, that one definitely felt really quite horrible at times, if I'm honest. You just get so tired and, you know, you do have to be careful. People, some runners, after things like this, they do get into a state of fatigue that they can't really shake and it's not, you know, because there are so few people doing this kind of thing really, it's not that well understood or that well researched. So people, people do have to be very careful. And yeah, I think I had some fatigue from that for the rest of the year actually when it came to kind of. I think I was okay at home and stuff, but when it came to actually racing, my. Racing my next two races that year weren't good, for example. And actually it was only when I had a little injury, a little Achilles injury and I finally took some time off totally. It was only after that, the next year actually that I felt fresh and good again. So, yeah, I wouldn't necessarily recommend people do that, but yeah, to break the record, you know, I had two friends with me in a van and I would. Yeah, on average I slept three hours and the last two nights, you know, to try and set the best possible record, it was just two hours. So getting up again in the morning those times, it was just horrible. Honestly, it was a nightmare. Feeling of your body just being so reluctant and I suppose your mind being fairly reluctant but kind of knowing you pretty much had to, you know, but you would, you do come round and I discovered something called the power. The power sob, which was quite effective. Tell us about the power sob. Well, the power sob. So, yeah, those last few mornings, I think it was often around 9 or 10 o'. Clock. I mean, I felt quite guilty as a parent being away from my children for that long and it would. When you're super tired, of course it brings the emotions and the rawness. They would all sort of combine together. It's always about 10 o' clock in the morning to bike combined together and sort of like a little volcano and erupt out of me in a sort of, sort of in a sort of cry for help out of a sort of why won't this ever finish? And I would sob for, you know, just Five or ten seconds and. But then I've looked into it and when you cry, your body, it gets a natural painkiller. And I would nearly always feel fantastic after that and run happily for a few hours and, I don't know, imply it was all miserable, because it really wasn't. You know, you get incredible views, as you will well know, and incredible moments of kindness, again from strangers. I was fundraising and my crew would sometimes tell people up ahead if they asked what I was up to, and they'd just come up and give me cash for the fundraising and things like that, which was just so touching, you know, a stranger coming up to you or often I remember fish and chip shops, they, you know, refused to take our money and stuff when they learned what I was doing. Or a pub would just come out and give me a meal. Those sort of things are just. Yeah, just. It just fills you with happiness, doesn't it?

Absolutely. Absolutely. And so when you do these challenges, do you. Do you. How much of them? Because I sense that there's element, there's significant elements of them that you don't enjoy, but you obviously, you must enjoy them to a certain extent to keep going back, you know, how does it work in terms of that love, hate, relationship with these. With these sorts of events?

Yeah, that's a really good question. And if I'm being totally frank, I guess I do, to an extent, I do glorify a bit in the kind of. This is really tough. I'm. You know, this is what I do, you know, these just conversations in your head, you know, and if I'm totally honest, I have thought sometimes, you know, maybe most people wouldn't do this, they would have quit. I'm not going to. I do have those little conversations because you do go into a kind of little fantasy world where you're almost. I don't know, I'm embarrassed to say this, but you're almost kind of pretending to be a hero or something, and you're really not a hero because of course there are, you know, people are doing genuinely heroic things around the world, not least in our NHS at the moment. But you're. Yeah. You almost have to get into a quite a strange mindset, I think. Imagine if other runners who do this sort of thing are honest. They would all have a. I don't know, go into some sort of sort of quasi fantasy world. You know, it's kind of whatever's gonna. Whatever's gonna keep you going, really. But what I've learned more recently, I suppose is, yeah, kind of Knowing. Knowing your why, you know, why you're doing it. So especially fundraising is the obvious one. Like, especially for the charity that's close to you, that can be really, really powerful and you're doing it for that, you know, especially if it's in the memory of someone or to help someone who's around nowadays, you know, that's really powerful. And that usually usually works. But in terms of like, you know, often it's not real pain. Usually it's just kind of, you know, tiredness or your legs are just. Your legs are just fatigued and they want a rest. It's not. And you kind of. You can get a bit too self obsessed perhaps with, you know, a toe blister or something. So. No, these are, these are definitely more, you know, I'm trying to think of a good ratio for you, but like say the Pen Am way. I think it felt like it was, you know, 70, at least 70% enjoyment and maybe, you know. Yeah, 20 or 30% less enjoyment or not quite as fun.

Pain, low mood and needing food.

Yeah, yeah.

And so if I asked you, like, looking back, which was your favorite bit of the southwest coast path, could you. Would you, you know, would that be, you know, where would you say or wouldn't you? Would it. What does it all kind of end up blurring into one?

A bit of both. I remember, I remember Padstow being ping. Being gorgeous. That was just a beautiful morning. I loved going the Tintagel section. Well, I loved and hated the Tintagel section. That's really tough. But I used to visit. I actually grew up a little bit on Dartmoor. We used to go to Tintagel a lot. And I love Exmoor. We've holidayed on Exmoor a lot. But also, you know. Yeah. Along that north coast. I mean, we've a lot of family holidays along there, Bude and so on. So I did love that section. Those are the ones I remember. Well, I mean, so often it depends on the weather and your mood at the time, I suspect. Yeah, sometimes. I mean, sometimes it was just dark and I might have been somewhere gorgeous that I just didn't really see it, unfortunately. So I'd be hard to pinpoint a favorite. But there were just so many stunning places. It was absolutely incredible. You know, it was like, wow, Britain has this, you know, all these coves and beaches and this absolute treasure. Really. It's wonderful.

Well, it is. And that probably springboards nicely onto the Kate Roth challenge, which was. Which, for anybody that hasn't watched it, I highly recommend watching it. On Vimeo because it's really brilliant documentary of you doing it. But when I was a kid I used to, at school I used to go up to Loch Inver to do Duke of Edinburgh Award expeditions and it was just fantastic going. Looking at you and Beth going through, setting your fkt in scenery that actually I liken it to New Zealand, you know, in the way, you know, when you're tracking through there, I think it's incredible. And to think that again, that's another part of the UK that's so different to, you know, the Cornish coastline, but is absolutely stunning. So have you, have you kind of. Have you done much of the Cape Roth area trial before and have you been up there since?

No, no, no to both of those. I must admit. It was our friend, our good friend Ellie, Ellie Green's idea and she's one of the filmmakers from Summit Fever Media and she. They were, they were trying to think, we're all big fans actually of trying to showcase Britain as a great place for adventure. You know, not least with. With, you know, now we all know how sort of damaging it is to, to fly like Britain's got, you know, when I've lived abroad and come back to Britain and sort of thought, wow, actually despite the amount of people there are in Britain and it can feel a bit crowded actually there are some stunning places to get to and not least, yes, Scotland, the Cape Wrath trail on the sort of western side of Scotland, north Scotland, the sort of remoteness up there and the wild feeling was incredible. And I think we'd often only see one person a day and yeah, I hadn't, hadn't experienced it before and it blew my mind really. We had great weather, if I'm honest. It was December, but it was usually sunny. But we had these long KT in.

The winter, didn't you? As opposed to in the summer, which I would think is making life a little bit harder than it needs to be.

Yeah. And I suppose it also meant it was dark, you know, more than you know. So we did again probably miss. Missed some lovely sections. But that was kind of Matt and Ellie's idea that it would be a winter adventure that I guess they were expecting a whiter. A whiter adventure but you know, But I guess it also meant there was, you know, almost no one else around. Although I can't imagine it gets super busy up there in the summer and I guess we avoided the midges as well, so. But yeah, it was just long golden glens mountains. Yeah, it was gorgeous. I'd strongly recommend you know, anyone who wants to sort of get away from it all a bit, it's a great place to go.

Well, it took me back because watching you run through that part of the world and then you staying in the odd bothy, which, you know, it's just a brilliant concept and you know, we did that a few times on Duke of Edinburgh and it was, it's just such an amazing part of the world to explore. But to see you guys doing it and setting again a fkt which was I think four days, four and a half days as opposed to the previous one being seven days. I mean, that was an astonishing achievement to kind of run. But I suppose because it's just another one of yours. How different was it running with Beth the whole way as opposed to running on your own?

Yeah, that's a really good question. And it could be a really easy way to fall out with someone. So, I mean, huge credit to Beth that she would put up with me for, for that time. I mean, it's lucky that we'd already. I mean, I met Beth at the Spine Race and I've actually, there's something about the Spine Race. I mean, I met Matt and Ellie from Summit Fever Media there as well. And actually one of the guys who helped me last week, I met him at the Spine Race. So something about that race brings a certain, attracts certain types of people. But yeah, I mean, Beth, Beth's incredible at this sort of thing. Plus, you know, plus she's, she's a doctor, which is helpful if things are getting a bit pear shaped for me anyway. But yeah, it does. You could easily fall out. She did invite me to her wedding, so it looks like we haven't, we haven't fallen out. But I mean, a lot of the time I don't, you know, a lot of the time we didn't really talk very much. We were just enjoying being there. You know, it's. It's funny in a way, I still don't know what Beth's favorite type of music is or what films she likes. There are lots of questions I realized I didn't really ask her, but I guess they all seemed. All that seemed a bit irrelevant. We were just, you know, enjoying being where we were and sharing it and. Yeah, it was wonderful. It was lovely, really.

And does it help with pacing or do you find it a hindrance? At times you're thinking, I could go a bit faster, but Beth doesn't want to or vice versa or is that actually a help?

Good question. I think it probably helps she's more focused than I am. I'm more of a daydreamer. I'm more likely to probably slack off for a bit and just kind of bimble along. But she's, she's very motivated, so. But yeah, you can only ever go at the slowest person's pace and you're definitely having ups and downs. But yeah, I think it does help. It does help because you kind of think I've got to keep an effort here because I can't hold the other person up. So it does help. Definitely. Yeah.

And with all of these amazing achievements, which of course include UTMB as well, which is your highlight, which do you think is your favorite so far?

Gosh, I haven't thought about that. I guess from a like purely kind of performance level perspective, I think it is my, probably my best result at UTMB because for those that don't know, It's a, yeah, 105 mile race in the French Alps and it is kind of the super bowl of ultra running. All the stars from around the world come to that one. So I did it four years in a row just, you know, just trying to improve each year and ended up, ended up placing fifth. I'll never, you know, I'll never win that one. So finishing fifth was, was probably as good as it will get for me. So that felt like, it felt like a win, if I'm honest. And Beth also has. I think she's been, she'd been fourth there or definitely fifth.

No, fourth in Western states. Fifth in utmb, I think.

Okay. Yeah. But she, what's exciting about her is so even when I was fifth, I think I was still an hour and 40 minutes behind the winner. Whereas when she was, when she was fifth, I'm pretty sure. Well, she was a lot, lot closer to the winning time, if you know what I mean. So she's got horror of a.

She was really ill. She was going to pull out halfway through because she was feeling ill for it and nobody overtook her as she expected. So that was amazing.

So I think she's still got. Yeah, I think she's still got another, another great race in her there where she could do even better. But yeah, that's something I think when I sort of hang my boots up I'll feel quite proud of. But probably the other thing, I know it's my newest album. Rockstars always say the newest album is their best one. Right. And it rarely is. But I think this Pen Am Hue thing does feel like one of my. What's the word? Yeah, One of my biggest things because the record had stood that long. And I know, I know it's sort of outside of Britain, people wouldn't really care about it, but in Britain, to me it's. It's been, you know, one of. I've always seen it like the Bob Graham round the Joggle, you know, the sort of Lands End John O Groats record. I've always seen those two and the Penang Way. To me they're the big three records and the other two, one of them's way out of reach for me and one's on tarmac and I'm not. That doesn't appeal very much. So for me, I've got. Yeah, I've got one of the big three in my pocket for now. So, yeah, pretty happy with those. Those ones, I think.

And you've had at least one pop at the Bob Graham round, haven't you? Or is it one?

Yeah, I've done the Bob Graham, but it wasn't, it was just with a. With a friend. It wasn't sort of a record attempt at all. In fact, it wasn't. Wasn't long after the southwest coast path, so I still felt. And it was in preparation for utmb, it was to get some, get some good lumps in my, in my legs. Well, I suppose I already had some from the southwest coast path, but it was a bit of prep for the utmb, really. So, yeah, it was never intended as a fast one and I mean, I could, I could spend lots of time trying to get faster and faster on it, but I just. Yeah, it's out of reach. Kylian Journey's, you know, superhuman athlete. I don't. I'm not gonna waste too much time going for the same records as he's got. I don't think I'm better off concentrating elsewhere.

I reckon it's an incredible time, isn't it? But brilliant that Beth has gone and set the female fkt. That's amazing.

Oh, it really is, yeah. Yeah. I'm so chuffed for her. That's brilliant.

So specifically, what do you find yourself recommending when people talk to you about ultra running? How do you recommend they approach nutrition, for example?

Definitely during races, you want to think kind of little and often, but I find it's really, it's. It's really individual, you know, Some people can happy on gels. That's not really my thing, some people. Some people seem to love pork pies, you know. Again, that's not. Not really my thing, some people. Yeah. So it's about experimenting a Bit with, I guess, just simply what suits you, what are you going to eat? And again, I've sometimes thought, right, healthiest possible approach. You know, it's the chia seeds and the Amazonian goji berries. But actually if you look at them, you know, 10 hours into a race and you know they make you want to, they make you feel sick, then that's not, that's probably not the best thing either. So I don't really have a go to thing. But like often it's some chocolate, Chocolate's pretty good, you know, flapjacks, all different types of bars. But often liquid nutrition can be quite a clever thing. Whether that's adding some carbohydrate mix to your water or, you know, it could be soup or fruit juice flavored milk, those sorts of things is quite a clever way to get some calories in when probably you don't want to chew too much or you don't want to crunch too much. So that can be, that can be an option. But really I see it as an opportunity to, you know, have a big picnic and eat lots of food because it's like, you see, you've read Born to Run and they call it an eating contest with some light exercise thrown in. And it kind of really is, you know, you've got to keep the calories coming in.

Describes it as ultra eating, doesn't she?

Yes, right. Yeah, yeah, so I, that's true. So it's an, it's a chance to just experiment and stuff your face really well.

It just fascinates me with ultras in particular when you hear, you know, people are eating pizzas while they're running and then, and then there's other fish and chips and pork pies. And yet Beth, I mean, lives as far as I can see on her, on her race, exclusively on gels, which seems, seems interesting as, I mean, so for something like utmb, what would you, how would you fuel that?

Yeah, I must say. So best gels, she's with spring energy and they're not as sort of sugary and processed as a lot of gels.

I've been trying them lately. I think there's no malted extrane in them and I think they're brilliant.

Right? Yeah. So they're much more kind of natural carbohydrate, which probably is probably is the difference. Probably means she can just keep going on them. So personally, it's a combination of stuff. So there might be a few gels, but they're really just an emergency or a backup option. I do quite Like a bit, a little bit of trail mix if I'm honest, you know, a few salty nuts and raisins but not too many nuts because it's hard if your body needs more oxygen to break them down. But usually it's a few chocolate bars and energy bars. It almost doesn't matter. Over time I've realized it doesn't really matter which ones to me so it's a few bars at utmb. I love the soup, they do like a salty noodle soup which goes down really well and obviously you're getting some. Well this is important to get some sodium in. So yeah, a few bars, a few liquid calorie drinks, occasional gel, some chocolate. I do grab a bit of cheese from the aid stations over there. They have sort of cheese and salami and bread and I don't really like the salami army bread so much but I grabbed some cheese. That's quite a nice change. And sometimes it's about sort of almost cleansing your palate so that your mouth doesn't get too sick of the same stuff. So that might be. Yeah a bit of cheese to change, change the flavor. Or even a bit of fruit. Yeah, fruit, fruit's pretty good. You know, if in doubt bananas are. Bananas are pretty sort of fail safe, aren't they? Yeah.

As the comedian who wrote the book on, book on running that, I can't remember his name but he said there's not many situations a banana doesn't improve.

Spot on.

So what other products do you find yourself recommending? Whether it's shoes, whether it's what you found that really helped you on that journey?

Well, I'm very biased because I'm lucky to be sponsored by Innovate so I mean I do genuinely enjoy their kit although I'm not going to be trying any other kit you know, at the moment. But they do have a brilliant new shoe, the Terra Ultra G270 which has graphene grip and I wore that on the Pennine Way and actually it was designed for hard, you know, hard trails like utmb but on the Pennine Way which is a lot more mixed and a lot more boggy and rocky actually they're fantastic and yeah they've got, you know, they're a British brand so the stuff is made in Britain. So for, for the British terrain I think it's very good. I do like there's a company called 33 fuel who especially now I'm trying hard to work with companies who don't, don't include plastic. So you know there are some companies who I have worked with, who I think make quite good products. But I'm trying to be fair to them because I'm understanding that, you know, it's very expensive and difficult to go to fully compostable wrappers. But that's my kind of priority at the moment is to work mostly with companies who can do that or at least make recyclable wrappers. So a lot of, you know, nearly always a gel wrapper isn't going to be recyclable because, you know, it's trying to keep that liquid fresh for you maybe for six months or more. But yeah, 33 fuel do they do a great protein shake as well, and that is in recyclable packaging. There's a great company called Outdoor Provisions who make really nice bars here in Britain. And it's totally compostable wrappers. It's a bit like the naked bar. So it's kind of all natural fruit, but they do some really good flavors. I'm a big fan of them, actually. And also for my recent Pin Unweh run, I'm going to say the name of the company wrong, but you get these like Colombian jellies. And I'm gonna struggle to remember the name of the company, but it's. Maybe I can forward it on to you afterwards. And I do have a discount code actually for people if they want, but they're there. Yeah, natural. Natural jellies from Columbia. And they're in a biodegradable leaf packaging, which I think is brilliant. And they give you, you know, they give you a real boost. What else I've been using lately, there's a great company called Near Me called Delicious who make. But not really a sports brand, but they make some fantastic little treats that are sort of a little bit lower calorie, lower sugar and all sort of organic and. Yeah, trying to be as ethical as they can. So there are some great companies. So I guess if I'm honest at the moment I'm more interested in which companies are doing ethical, ethical things. And that's. That's some of them anyway.

Climate change is a. Something that you're very passionate about, isn't it?

Yes, I guess I'm. I guess I'm. I've been kind of a bit radicalized by extinction, rebellion. If I. If I'm totally honest, like, I think most of us knew. No, there's a problem in the world with that. I hadn't realized just how urgent it was and how sort of politicians and corporations aren't treating it as urgently as the Scientists tell us it needs to be treated. So I feel like, you know, we might have to make a bit of a song and dance about it until they treat it more seriously. So, yeah, it's a very complex issue, of course, and we won't get everything right and it's impossible to sort of speak about it without being something of a hypocrite. But, yeah, I've made as many lifestyle changes as I can think of for now, and I've worked with a company called Our Carbon, quite a new company who sort of. They kind of audited me and my emissions from last year and came up with a figure and then. And then we made a target for this year, which was really, really fun and interesting process and it meant I can sort of, you know, I should be carbon negative or my whole family should be carbon negative for the year, which is quite. Yeah, it was just really fun to see. You know, what is my footprint? Which bits can you move and adjust and cut down on to improve it decently and things like that?

I think it's fantastic and I think doing anything to minimize your own impact, but also bring awareness to the impact that's going on around us is fantastic. So well done. And coming back to your list of companies, we actually have had Warren from 33 Fuel on the podcast.

Oh, great.

By complete coincidence, I'm actually cycling. I've never met him other than through this, but I'm now cycling with him on Sunday. So.

Brilliant. Great. I love Warren.

Their products are really good and it's nice to see endurance products that aren't bad for you, which is their main focus. Really great company. And we mentioned mental techniques at the start and you talked about Alex Hutchinson's book Endure, and I get the same impression. I don't know if you read Adara Hans Finn's book, Rise of the Ultra Runner. Great, great book again. But, you know, there's so. So many times he's kind of. He's at the absolute end. He can't, you know, barely put one foot in front of another, and yet he. He'll then go do the last 10 miles at PB or something. How does that work? So how have you. What mental techniques have you developed to try and break through that mental barrier that's stopping you achieving the physical barrier?

I think one of the best things is before you do your challenge is to, well, almost, yeah, even write it down. Why are you doing it? What do you. What's motivating you? What is it? Yeah, what is it you're trying to achieve? And for me, I think, I think parents have an unfair advantage because they can sort of press the, press the child button and think, right, I'm trying to inspire my children. And that's, that can be incredibly motivating. Of course my children aren't, aren't the least bit interested, but. Right, yes, exactly. So I tell myself maybe one day in the future they'll be impressed or something, but maybe they won't. But, but it worked. It worked for me at the time. Yeah, I often kind of. And also my little mantra that seems to work. Yeah, again, self talk has been proven to be effective and my personal mantra, and I think your mantra needs to be a personal one, is usually actually don't be lazy. Which doesn't sound that professional perhaps, but I guess I, elsewhere in my life I have been a bit lazy. You know, my GCSEs are very mediocre and because I was just lazy. So actually it's quite a powerful thing. But it also ties in with you. Don't be lazy because you've been away from, you're away from your family now and you've been away from them to train and don't, you know, don't waste that time. Don't, you know, make that count for something. So actually for me that's very powerful. Don't be lazy. And it just reminds me to be efficient, especially when things aren't going so well. You don't have to fight it all that much. You just, you know, your slowest pace is often more important than your fastest pace. So when you're in your slow pace kind of mood, just, you know, you don't have to sort of get too angry about it or anything, but you just try and stay efficient and don't, I don't know, don't sit down in the middle of the field and sulk about it. Just keep ticking over and usually it improves. So self talk, know goal setting, working out what you're trying to achieve, working out your why. And then there are little tricks. I mean the absolute classic is they're kind of breaking into bite sized chunks. So on the Pennine way, I only ever really thought about the next, the next time I'd see my road crew. So that was always two to three hours ahead. And then I, soon as I've seen them, it's like, okay, it's another two hours to bear and you know, two, two to three hours doesn't seem, you know, too daunting. I could, I could do another two hours. So, okay, let's go that's probably the number one thing that people use is that, yeah, breaking into bite sized chunks. But yeah, hopefully there's enough there to go on. But elsewhere I'd say keep, make it personal, keep it personal to yourself.

Brilliant. Sounds like great advice.

Thank you.

How did you get to. I think so somebody that's run several marathons but not loads one as part of an Ironman. I still look at the idea of running 100 miles and think that just seems like a whole different crazy level. And when you talk to people that aren't in this world, you know, again, it's like, how did you get up to running 100 miles and what was probably your longest run before you did it? You know, somebody, if somebody said I want to do 100 mile ultra, how do they go about it?

Well, I think, I think it does sound daunting, doesn't it? But I don't think it's not nearly as daunting as it sounds because one of the number, you know, the sort of secret number one is that we don't run every step by any means at all. Like we do power hike. And I use the word, I use the phrase power hike because rather than walk, because walk seems like a bit defeatist and a bit leisurely. So to me it's a power hike. So that's still athletic, you know, that's still trying to move well, trying to move efficiently. But there's no. So normally any sort of semi steep uphill where we're hiking that to sort of preserve our energy and muscles. But even later in the race, you know, sometimes if you're, you know, just feeling a bit demotivated or a bit flat or you've got a small issue, you might, you might walk the walk the flats as well. And usually the cutoffs are usually quite generous and it's fine to walk. No one's going to mock you for that. There's no crowd anyway. So for starters, it's more, it's better to maybe see it as a foot race rather than a run almost. And the other thing is, it's kind of like if we had to travel 100 miles now because something awful was going to happen, maybe, maybe to our family 100 miles away, we would do that. We would all do it. So we can do it. It's kind of how much do you want to do it? I suppose. But obviously the fitter you get, the easier that is and the less we are relying on the sort of mental side. But yeah, I think don't be too daunted by it, it's just traveling for maybe 24 hours for a lot of people, 30 hours possibly. And you'll have ups and downs and just sort of go with it and don't fear that just because you feel down at the moment that it's, you know, you're going to continue down nearly always you come back up. It's sort of, it's ups and downs all the way. So yeah, it's really something to be enjoyed often. There's great scenery, there's great food, there's great people. It's something to go and enjoy. I would recommend it to anyone really.

What does a typical training week look like for you to keep you in the shape to be able to do this?

Oh yeah. And you asked about longest run as well, didn't you? I guess before my first hundred miler so I had done 100k race, so that's 660 miles. So that was obviously useful in terms of just what does it feel like because your body will sort of make new noises at you. For me, I think it was, I remember the hips, you know, feeling, you know, just, just a bit stiff and cross about it and I hadn't really felt that before. I think I did it. Yes, I did 100k and then 100 mile was quite a few months later. I did, I did do a 40 mile training run before the hundred miler which I wouldn't actually recommend to people. I think that's too much. But what I did is I got a train 40 miles from home and sort of ran home so that I wouldn't sort of. Yes, yes. But I think normally a 30 mile run is about as much as you should do, I think much more than that. And you're likely to, you know, your next week's training is likely to be impacted, the tiredness, the injury risk. So. But I suppose the conventional way is if you're going to do 100 mile race, you'd probably do a 50 mile race or 100k in the build up. That would be fairly smart. It's not essential but that'd be fairly smart as just a stepping stone to see what it's like. And then, and then, and then I wouldn't Recommend Longer than 30 miles in training really. And for me, typical training week, I'm doing less volume nowadays, I guess I'm averaging, I put it all on Strava. I'm averaging probably 65 to 70 miles a week. Quite a lot the time which is quite kind of fairly manageable. That's with you know, one full day off.

And will that be one long run and several shorter runs or how do you.

Yeah, I guess, yeah. On average, your average day is kind of 8, 8 or 10 miles probably. Yeah. One longer run of I suppose anywhere from maybe 16 miles to kind of 25 miles. And then if you're training for something like I just did, then yeah, the volume will jump up a bit. But also I suppose some back to back longer runs. So I might go out the next day, not nothing huge, but maybe, you know, maybe maybe 14 or 16 the next day. But not, not loads of weeks doing that. Probably just one really key block. As I say, you can sort of look on Strava, I think like four weeks out from a pen away run. I had four weeks where I was doing more like 80, 90 miles a week. And those, you know, back to back long runs were in there ideally on the Pennine Way or as similar terrain as possible. As race specific as possible. And yeah, you practice, practice with your fueling when you do that practice, you know, practice running the downhills. Well, that sort of thing. But yeah, it doesn't need to be. Well, I suppose to some people that sound like crazy miles. To some people it won't, but it doesn't need to be crazy miles. I've certainly run more than that before and less than that before. But I constantly hear and from my coaching clients as well in the past, or maybe they've had an injury or something, people have got through 100 mile races on honestly like 20 miles a week and things like that. I mean obviously you're better off doing, you know, kind of 40, 50, but 4050 is quite a nice comfortable way if you're doing around 50 miles a week. I think that should be manageable for a lot of people's lifestyles and is quite a sensible safe amount of miles. But I don't think people need to do. You definitely don't need to do crazy miles for it to do 100 miler at all.

Yeah, that's really interesting.

So.

What would be the worst advice you hear people given around ultramarathons?

Oh, good one. Oh yeah. Okay. Well it's a bit controversial but there is a big, there was a big trend a few years ago with this sort of low. Yeah, the low carbohydrate, high fat diets. And I think increasingly we're seeing that that's really unwise. Increasingly studies are showing that's linked to weaker bone health, weaker immunity. Basically you'll run slower and there's at least one Other factor as well. Just trying to remember it. But, yeah, increasingly we're seeing that as a bad idea. I work with a dietitian. I actually coach her so that I can get her advice whenever I need it. Renee McGregor. And a lot of her work is picking people up basically, when they've either neglected calories overall or they've neglected carbohydrates to sort of pursue this sort of false dream that you can sort of fuel just on nuts and cheese and be perfectly healthy. And she's, you know, people are getting into trouble with their health, not just their fitness, their health from pursuing these ideas. So I would say be very, very careful about that. And we're all different, so some, some of us might be okay on that, but probably a small amount of us. And just because someone else is doesn't mean we are. So just be very careful and be aware your body works differently to someone else's. I suppose that would, that would be my. I guess I was trying to. I don't know if you wanted something funny for that response, but it suddenly. Remember, he thought of.

No, actually, I think it's really interesting because I was listening to, Listening to a podcast recently with. Is it Zach Phillips, who's a, who's an ultra?

Is it Zach Bitter, the American?

And he's very keto focused, isn't he? Yes, and I think that's.

Right.

I might be getting.

I might be getting the wrong place.

No, he's. Yeah. And he's the world record holder at, I think, 100 miles on the, on the track. He's an incredible runner and he does advocate that, that kind of diet, although he, I think he has more carbohydrate than people realize.

Well, that's what he said. When you, when you, When I think that's right. But he also recognized that it works well for him. But it, you know, there's lots of people and like Kilian Jordan that he said, you know, that have a high carb diet that are clearly far better than, you know, on that. So I think that that's, I think that's good advice, actually. I think, I think ultimately is about trial and error and working out what works for you and what doesn't. He's obviously decided that it works. Works better for him. But, but certainly when I've tried it, I think I need, I need some carbs in there for sure.

Yes, yes, likewise. And yeah, a couple of years ago, I was fascinated by the idea and I thought, you know, Tim Noakes is the biggest advocate of it and I've bought all his books and I did try it for a bit and I felt awful and. Yeah. And just increasingly more studies are coming out showing kind of. Yeah. That it's not. It's not so smart. So please be, please be careful, everyone.

Excellent advice. Thank you. So, coming towards the end, are there any books that you found particularly helped you? I mean, you mentioned Alex Hutchinson's Endure, but any other books that you find yourself recommending particularly?

Oh, yeah, loads.

What are your best favorites?

I guess, yeah. The last few years, my bookshelf has turned into a total running bookshelf. I mean, two sort of daydreamy books I do really like is Lizzie Hawker's. I think it's just called Runner and Kilian Journey's Run or Die. I mean, they're really kind of philosophical books, really, about just the pure joy of running, you know, in mountains. They're wonderful for that sort of thing. In terms of like, good books for advice, I mean, happy Runner by David and Megan Roach is fantastic. I think that's really, really smart training advice also. Yeah, Endure is, I think, I think. Yeah. We mentioned Born to Run and Feet in the Clouds. I think they're key. They're key reads for anyone.

Lovely. I'm really enjoying reading that.

Oh, good. Yes.

Yeah, it's just opening up a whole new world. I think we were talking about it prior to recording the podcast, but just a wonderful book, but I think, as you said, it's just opening up a whole different world that I just had no idea existed.

Yes, no, that's highly recommended. That's wonderful. And, you know, although we need to add a warning to that one, don't we? Anyone who reads that will want to try and do the Bob Graham round.

In the same way that anyone that reads Born to Run will want to start running barefoot.

Yes.

And then perhaps realize that that's not such a good idea.

Yes, yes.

Where do you stand on that, actually? Where do you stand on the barefoot running technique and concept?

Well, yeah, it's a fascinating one. I think we all want to do the thing things the most natural way, don't we? So it's really a really seductive idea that we could just all run barefoot and we would be almost more, you know, more more in align with our ancestors and animals. And that's lovely. But I think what's happened, what, what, what has been shown really, is that we, you know, our bodies have, well, our bodies are probably just a bit weak from all the sitting down and it's not necessarily that smart to go Straight into kind of barefoot running. I've worked a lot, actually, with a guy called Shane Benzi who's a movement coach and he's been all around the world studying movement. He's got a book coming out soon called, I think, the Lost Art of Running. Now, his take on it is kind of like that your footwear is pretty much irrelevant. Like he can teach you to run, you know, with natural form, regardless of what's on your feet. Now, of course, off the record, I'm pretty sure he would say he doesn't. You know, he's not so keen on shoes of massive cushions, massive amounts of cushioning. But really, yeah, it's more. It's not so important what's on your feet. It's more about how you run, how you move. Surprisingly, where your head is and actually you physically where you place your head and what your arms are doing is actually has a lot to do with it as well. So, yeah, so I definitely like the idea of more natural movement, but it probably isn't down to footwear, I guess is my thoughts on that. But, yeah, it's a fascinating debate in the footwear. Yeah, yeah.

Which I think is what Adara hadn't been concluded. I think this Shane Benzi may even feature in that book.

He does have a brief mention. Yes, yes.

Yeah. And so what are you most excited about now? Let me ask that in a different way. If we were sat here a year from now, looking back, what's going to have happened for you to be happy with the year you've had?

Gosh, well, if I'm honest. Yeah. So I guess you're speaking to me just after this pen. I wei. Run. So I'm feeling. Feeling fairly, fairly satisfied with that. And then in February, I ran the Paddy Buckley round and set a winter record for that. So I suppose in terms of this year, it's been a tricky one for everyone on lots of levels. I suppose if I walk away with it with two records, I guess that's okay. I guess I'll be okay with that. So I guess I feel quite relaxed about the rest of the year. I don't feel like I need to do a race in particular, if there even are any, or do anything else that might just be because I'm feeling tired and happy to sit down for a bit. But, yeah, if I'm honest, you've almost caught me at the wrong time for that question because I'm feeling kind of. Yeah. Tired and satisfied. I don't. Don't have a burning desire right now to Even go for a run today, to be honest. It'll be a few more days still, so I don't know. And I've got it. Yeah, I've got to start thinking about what fires me up next, really. Whether it's a particular race or an FKT type challenge. Yeah, the answer is I'm not sure.

Well, it sounds like you got some time to think about it because as you say, you've had two fantastic achievements. Well, Damien, it's been an absolute pleasure to chat to you. I've really enjoyed getting to know you.

A little bit better.

There's so much great advice in there for our listeners. So a huge thank you and whatever it is that comes next, I wish you every success in that and I look forward to following the journey some more because it's certainly been an incredible journey so far. So thank you very much.

Well, thank you ever so much, Charlie. Thanks for having me on. I've really enjoyed the chat and you know, very best of luck with your own running as well.

Brilliant. Thank you very much.

I'm sure you'll have agree what an absolutely incredible and lovely and humble guy. Phenomenal success and I just can't wait to see what Damien does next because I know it will be an exciting journey to watch. If you want to find out more about Damien, you can look him up@DamienHall.info and follow him on Instagram. I can recommend following him on social media, but particularly into because I love seeing the photos of him running across the Pennine way and those sorts of things. So I hope you learned a huge amount from that and for me it was inspiring and it's made me think, you know what, actually I can go from running a marathon up to running 100 miles. We'll have to wait and see whether.

He'S right though, won't we?

So I hope you enjoyed it.

Don't Forget to check out 33fuel.com if you want to get faster, fitter and healthier through their incredibly high quality, health conscious, endurance, nutrition. And if you use the discount code TA33, you'll be able to get a 10% discount. So that's capital T, capital A3, three the numbers.

And you'll get a 10 discount off.

Your order@33fuel.com you won't be disappointed.

This podcast is brought to you by.

Innovate.com incredible running shoes that keep Damien hall and Nikki Spinks, amongst others, flying along the trails. If you go to innovate.com that's in O V-8.com and if you use the discount code Tribeathlon 10, that's Tribathlon in all capitals 10, you can get 10% off your purchase at innovate.com I know you will love their shoes. In particular, I love the Terra Ultras. So go check out innovate.com and don't.

Forget to download the Tribathlon app for more amazing podcasts, but also to help you train, compete, and to build your tribe.