Ultra Strength & Conditioning with Carla Molinaro

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Tribathlon podcast finding out how ordinary people do extraordinary things.

When you do events like this, or any endurance events like all your hormones are all over the place, especially cortisol, which is like your stress hormone. And you might feel like you're fine, but all these things are happening on the inside of your body that you can't see. And if you don't take the time to let all of that settle, I think that's when you can then get injured and over train and burn out.

That was Carla Molinaro and this episode is Ultra strength and conditioning. So I wanted to welcome back Claire Fudge from 4th Discipline as my new regular co host. I know you've been co host before, but great to get you back. Really looking forward to catching up with you over the course of each episode.

Yeah, thank you. It's great to be back and we always have some good discussions and good chats. So I'm really excited to be co hosting with you, so it's really good to be.

Well, I know that we're going to have loads to talk about, but I wanted to just kick things off. I don't know if you saw this, but Christian Blumenfeld has had an astonishingly brilliant year, hasn't. I mean he's, he was obviously winning at Clash Daytona just recently, but won Ironman Cozumel, won a gold medal in the Olympics, just had an incredible year. But what I did see was that the PTO have discounted his fastest ever Ironman time because he had. Because it was a downstream swim. And it seems like this to me seemed pretty unfair because of course you can only race the conditions that you, you get given. And of course, and on the bike actually he had wind, he had rain to deal with. So it feels like that, you know, you wouldn't, you wouldn't cancel it if you'd got a tailwind, a strong tailwind or something. So what are your thoughts on all of that?

I think it's really difficult, isn't it? Because I think it's very, very. I think to me it seems quite unfair. But maybe I don't know all the ins and outs of it, but you can never really fully compare one race to another anyway, can you? You know, even if you've got the same course, like you say, different environmental conditions, how do you ever fully compare one race to another race anyhow? And you can't physically change the swim in terms of it being downstream, can you? So I'm not quite sure, I'm not quite sure how they came to that decision, I'd be really interested to know.

How they did well and what's most interesting, I think is the fact that the fastest Ironman will remain as Jan Frodeno's time when he raced against Lionel Sanders. But there was of course only two people in that race and of course, and Lionel Sanders was fairway behind Yan. So it strikes me that that is also not a fair comparison because there's no other. There's no traffic, there's no, you know, and it was, it was kind of the perfect conditions for it. So yeah, it does seem like there is, you know, that's, it's quite tricky that. It just seems unfair that, that they've disqualified that time.

I think it's interesting, isn't it? Because actually when you kind of look at all the different sort of projects with like the Sub two hours and the marathon and things like that and actually when you, I know, read a couple of books about it, but also, you know, just reading about it in general, you know, they talk a lot about the conditions, don't they, and which course they're going to race on to get the best possible time. So yeah, I think I'd be really interested to know how they, how they came to that decision and also how he must feel about it as well. Well taken away from you, isn't it?

Yeah, I mean, but then equally he's one of the guys that along with Aleister Brownlee is. Is going for sub 7, isn't he? So. But if he's done, he's done 7 21. I think it was, you know, sub 7 with all of the perfect drafting and everything else is going to be. I think he's going to feel that's within easy reach now, I would have thought.

Yeah, absolutely. It's really interesting to, to, to read a little bit about it actually, in terms of the sub. Sub 7 and sub 8 for the, for the women. Because I think it's still Chrissie Wellington, isn't it, that holds the record.

I think that's right, yeah.

So. So that was quite some time ago now as well, wasn't it?

Yeah, it is and I think it will be really interesting. I don't know. Have you seen the Kipchoge documentary?

I've seen parts of it, yes.

I think, I think, you know what, what they did around the sub 2 was just so fascinating and I think that, yeah, getting an Iron Man Sub seven will be, you know, it'll just bring us a huge amount of attention to the sport and that's got to Be a good thing, isn't it?

Absolutely. I'd be really interested to see it unfold as well as you did with kind of the, you know, the sub two hours in terms of every nth degree of what they were looking at in terms of you know, pieces of equipment like you say, you know, the drafting, the day, the course, everything. So it would be really interesting to sort of see what sort of comes off the back of that and probably what new kit comes off the back of that as well.

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And what I think is. But I suppose where, where do they. Because obviously it's not, it's not going to be an official time. In the same way that the sub 2 wasn't a world record. But you know, where do they stop? Because you know you could have the swim, the swim downstream, you could have a point to point bike race where you've got, you know, essentially downhill downwind. And so it's kind of difficult as to where they, where they stop in that, isn't it?

Yeah. And where do you then measure against next as well? Do you measure? Maybe that, that's my scientific head anyway, you know, do you. Surely you can only then measure on the same course after that or do you. I don't know, you know, I don't know what they then go to next. But I think, you know, the thing that kind of I guess comes to my mind as well is that it's constantly we're pushing at the edge of these boundaries that we, that you know, when somebody breaks a record it's amazing, isn't it? And then the fact that we're now thinking about breaking other records and the fact that you know, as human beings we can push beyond what we know is possible. And I guess, you know, as athletes that's what we're always pushing the boundary. But you know, this is just amazing to be thinking that you know, athletes can push themselves like this to be able to, to get these times.

Well, it does open up people's I suppose the human psychology, doesn't it? You know, like when Roger, Roger Bannister did his four minute mile. You know previously scientists were saying it was impossible for a human to run a four minute mile. And then of course once he'd done it, several people did it within the following year or two. So just that, that ability. But we, we haven't seen a sub to qualifying marathon yet. So it hasn't opened it up quite as much as perhaps they thought. But who knows, we might, that might not be too far away.

It'd Be interesting to see how it falls. Particularly sort of interested in the kind of women's race side of things actually to see what happens.

Well, absolutely, yeah, I think, I think that is going to be really interesting. Now one of the things I was going to, I just wanted to ask you about was I seem to be talking to more and more athletes about the tech side of things now. Whether that's, you know, the running power meters like stride, whether it's our watches I'm battling at the moment with, as you know, with this, with trying to get my mapping on my watch for the Arc50 ultramarathon which we're running together, which I'm really looking forward to. So one of the, one of the pieces of tech that I keep sort of seeing come across my social media feed is super sapiens. What, given that you're a nutritionist, what is your experience of super sapiens? How valuable a piece of tech do you think that is?

I think, I think, you know, tech is so interesting, isn't it? Because I think, you know, actually just speaking about that in the first place is that it's going to become, I think it's very much in its early stages of sort of tracking a bit like, you know, some of the more old school sweat test patches that we've now got, the Gatorade patches that are being made to, to test sweat chloride levels. But nothing's really quite there yet in terms of all the information that we can get out of it. So if you think about like the heart rate monitor, like years, I don't even know what year they came out. But you know, years and years ago that was the first thing for like tracking, wasn't it? And now kind of, you know, where we are with tracking in terms of power meters and you know, before too long we're going to have, you know, a watch, something on a foot pod, a heart rate monitor, a continuous glucose monitor which is a super sapiens that you're talking about on your arm, you know, sweat patch, something else, you know, where does it, where does it end? So I think it's like, it's really exciting and being sort of science science myself, like to me it's really exciting because to actually have all that data means you can do something with it. But I think that is the ultimate kind of question here is if you collect all this data, what are you then going to do with it? Because data is only as good as what you're doing with it, surely. And I think working with athletes, you know, do we. And you Know, this is an athlete, you know, do we sometimes get caught up too much in what's going on our watch and actually not what we're doing. A typical example actually was you giving an example of the map on your watch. You know, actually, I don't know. You know, sometimes we can be held, can't we, by our watch and, you know, or tracking things and actually not kind of going by feel as well. So the super sapiens is built on the principle of, we call it CGM in the world of kind of the clinical world, but it's continuous glucose monitoring and it's basically a little tiny. I mean, it's amazing. We've been using it in the world of diabetes for quite some time and essentially it's exactly the same, the same thing. So measuring your glucose as we work with people with diabetes, which in the world of sport, by the way, is just, has been amazing to be able to track glucose. And for those athletes that do have type 1 diabetes and an insulin pump, which is a whole other topic we can go into at some point, you know, it does open up again, sort of more, more information about our bodies and how our bodies cope with certain training conditions, with race conditions, with what we're eating. But also, of course, when we're measuring blood glucose levels, it's not only those things, but it's also our hormones that interact at certain points that change how our body reacts, how our glucose levels are. So there's so many, there's so many things involved in that tracking. Have you had experience of using one?

No, I haven't. I've chatted to somebody that had one on at the time, actually, it was a Holcomb half and I was, I was chatting to him about it. But no, I haven't used one. I think it's, it's something that interests me and it, particularly from a. Comparing different types of nutrition to say, well, look, this one causes my blood sugar to spike too much. This one is create a better. You know, that's, that's the bit that interests me as much as the, the update on, you know, the buzz on your watch to say, right, okay, you need to take another gel now. But I mean, of course that's interesting too. So, no, I haven't, I think so.

I've, I've, I've, I've used them actually in the past from a diabetes point of view, as in like trial to out. But using the super sapiens was really interesting. And actually for me, I guess because I've got the background knowledge, having Worked in diabetes. I kind of know what's kind of. No, I do know what's happening, but it was really good to kind of have that feedback. So some really interesting data for me was my blood sugar levels, my blood glucose levels, doing exactly what I thought they would do from a text point of view, but also kind of what I felt about it. And actually, one of my reflections was if an athlete isn't educated about what they should be doing, it could actually prevent athletes from eating when they need to eat as well. So to give you an example, after a very long training run, and actually the training run was done in low glycogen stores anyway, but your body's absolutely amazing because you can see the fact that it's producing or pumping out glucose into the bloodstream to keep it a constant. So you've got this amazing, like, you know, amount of blood glucose, even even though your, your, your blood glucose was, was low, your stores have been low. And then when you stop, you actually see a peak in the level of blood sugar levels when you stop. So just as you're about to eat, you kind of look at your phone, you look at your phone where kind of all your information is. You can actually now download it onto to certain watches as well now. And it looks like you shouldn't be eating because it peaks when you finish, which is kind of normal and what you'd expect. And then of course, you see a big crash and a big, A big kind of dip afterwards. So that for me was really almost like the experimental side of it was like, I found that really interesting. But it also made me think how you could use it in not the best way as well as in, you know, should I be eating because my blood sugar level is high? Well, you know, let's. If you're, if you're educated and, you know, you're educated about what that means, you would know what to do. So I think it's, I think the information is useful, but I think it's the big part of it is the knowing what to do with, with those numbers.

And when you're absolutely right with all this tech, it's only use, it's only as useful as what you do with the data, isn't it? You can, you can have. I mean, I know from my Garmin, I get literally way, way, way more data than I have any idea what to do with, in fact. And I mean, something maybe we can talk about in a future episode is the Incas Nova, which is again about gathering data, but more so about interpreting that data and giving you simple, you know, feedback and advice on what you can do to improve, for example, your running technique. So, so right. Okay, brilliant. Well, fantastic to catch up with you. I'm really looking forward to catching up some more on future, future podcast episodes. But for now, what is we'll dive into the interview with Carla Molinaro. According to a website, Carla Molinaro is a record breaking ultra runner, adventurer and running coach who seeks out events that are slightly harder than average. Well, I tell you what, she isn't wrong. She set the ladies world record for running from Land's end to John O', Groats, otherwise known as Le Jog, in an astonishing 12 days and 30 minutes. And let's face it, we all know cyclists that we really happy with that. Amongst other of her insane runs, having grown up in South Africa, she had a fond spot for the famous 90 kilometer ultramarathon comrades. But that not being enough for her, she decided that she would run 90 km a day from Cape Town to Comrades as a warm up, completing the 90 kilometer race on the 20th and final day. And she went on to finish in the top 10. Absolutely incredible. So I wanted to chat to Carla about her new strength and conditioning coaching, how yoga can help ultra runners, and also about the ultra running bucket list. I know you're really, really going to enjoy this chat with Carla Molinaro. Today's show is brought to you by Precision Hydration, who help athletes personalize their hydration and fueling strategies so they can perform at their best. They work with a long list of elite athletes like three time Olympian and former guest of the podcast Eilish McColgan as well as many other athletes. PH tested my sweat and it turns out I'm a much saltier sweater than average and I would benefit from drinking a much stronger electrolyte drink than you'd normally get off the shelf. They also tested Sid, who actually loses about half as much sodium as I do when I sweat. Which just goes to show how much you can personalize your approach to hydration. Check out their free online sweat test@precisionhydration.com to get some personalized advice. Or like Sid and I, book yourself in for one of their advanced sweat tests. As a listener of the show, if you use the discount code TRIBATHLON15, you can get 15% off your first order at the checkout. So Carla, welcome to the Tribathlon podcast. Thank you so much for joining me. Let's kick things off for those people that don't know that much about you. Tell us a bit about your story. You know, how did you get into ultra running? I know there was. There's a bit of triathlon thrown in there as well, wasn't it? So. So tell us about how you got to ultra running.

Yeah, I guess I've. I've always done sport in some way, shape or form and kind of gone through a whole different raft of sports. I started off doing gymnastics and diving and swimming and then when I was about 16, I joined the local running club in High Wycombe. And Yeah, I did 800, 1500 meters for a couple of years before going to university where I walked into the athletics track. I was at University of Cardiff Institute Wales, and everyone in there was in a GB tracksuit and it was a bit intimidating, so I quickly turned around and went and found the triathlon club, which seemed a bit more more relaxed and a bit more fun and yeah, so started triathlon at uni and I did triathlon for 10 years, so quite a long time building up from sprint up to Ironman distance. And then in 2014, ish founder, I did Glasgow half Marathon and just really enjoyed the simplicity of just running. So stopped doing triathlon pretty much the next day. Sold all my bikes, sold my wetsuit, sold everything. And yeah, started running. And from there over the years just again built up the distances, doing. Went back to the track actually for a bit, doing 800-1500 meters, 10Ks, marathons, ultras, and then it kind of spiraled out of control to where it is today.

So what was your highlight of the triathlon career? You said you did, you know Ironmans and things like that, but what was, what was your highlight?

Oh, God, I don't know. I had some really good races. I think I. My favorite race. Oh, God, I don't even know. Probably Alpe d' Huez Triathlon. It was like savage but quite fun at the same time. Like getting to do a half marathon at the top of a mountain. And I guess that was probably like my first real taste of trail running. So, yeah, that was a pretty cool.

One and a precursor to what came later on, by the sounds of things.

Yeah.

And so what was your, what was your first ultra?

Uh, my first one was the Matterhorn Oak Tracks, which is one in the Swiss Alps in a place called Zermatt. It was 44km up in the mountains and yeah, it was stunning with this view of the Matterhorn, like the whole, whole run, which is pretty incredible.

Fantastic. And so how, how quickly did you get, did you manage to progress from that Glasgow Half marathon to doing that, that first ultra.

I think that ultra was a couple of years later. So it took a couple of years of doing. I did marathons for a while and then yeah, did that. Went out to the mountains actually for about a week which was pretty cool. And then did some exploring and a race at the end of the week.

Oh, fantastic. I mean those sorts of settings for you know, whether it's an ultramarathon or an Ironman just make it that much more special, don't they? And do you think that, I mean obviously we're going to come on to the fact that you've got longer and longer but do you think you prefer the trails or do you prefer the roads that you've kind of been doing? You know, the tarmac that you've done a lot of your racing on.

I think I'm better on the road. The trail hurts less. It's. Yeah, they're very different. I like having, that's why I still do both. I like having, you know the, that you can do both in ultra running. I guess coming from like a more of a road track background, I'm just, I like running fast which you can't necessarily do in a lot of trail races. So being able to have that balance between nice fast, hard road racing but then easy cruisy trails is yeah a nice mix.

It's always funny, isn't it, when you're looking at people on Strava, you're compare, trying to compare, you know, your trail run versus their road run. You're like I'm way, way slower. But it is. Yeah, it is a totally different experience, isn't it? But it's.

Oh yeah, like there's no point even like one of my athletes actually the other day was like did a 10k across country race and he was really upset because his 10k time wasn't the same as mine. Where I'd done a race the day before and I'm like, but you were doing cross country like you were on the mud. I'm on the right like you, I'm on the road like you can't compare the two. Like it's a pretty silly battle to have because you're not going to win that one.

And so what was it that led you to conclude that you wanted to end up running the length of the country and set the jog record?

Lockdown. There's nothing else to do.

I think I'm right in saying that at the start of lockdown you were actually in South Africa, weren't you? So yeah, how are you training for full of jog?

Well, so as lockdown happened in March, I then kind of decided that I wanted to do something, so started to have a little think. And in April, like it was actually like a week later I decided that I was going to do the job. But I only had three months to get ready for it, for the date that I picked to start. So I just, I basically started off doing 10k on a Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Monday. And then the next week I would do 15K, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Monday. And each week I just added 5k to those distances. And yeah, it was because there wasn't that much time. I just built it up. I ended up getting to 50k, 450ks in a row just because that's all the time I had. It was a pretty simple plan.

Fantastic. And do I recall at the start while you were in South Africa, you were actually just doing this on 100 meter long drive, so just running backwards and forwards or was that. Yeah, beforehand.

So in South Africa, when the lockdown started in South Africa, you weren't allowed to leave your house. So yeah, I did my runs up and down the driveway because I had nothing else to do.

And did that, did that help in any way in the sort of, you know, kind of relieving the boredom or, you know, of a long run or.

You know, not really. It gave me something to do in the day. I don't think like I, as I was doing it, I basically just phoned friends and just chatted to people as I was running up and down. So it wasn't like, oh, I need to go and beat myself on a driveway to make myself mentally strong. I wasn't like doing a David Goggins. I was just wanting to get out the house and that was the only place I had to run.

Now I know, I know you were talking about doing a backyard ultra, weren't you? But that you essentially did one yourself by kind of doing it in the doing on the drive. If you were getting up to the right distances when you.

Yeah, I actually did a backyard. There was one that they did like a virtual one with everyone around the world and I started doing it with everyone else. I think I got to like 55k and then I stopped because I was like, this is just stupid. It was more like the turning like every hundred meters. It was like starting to really hurt my ankles by the end. And then I was just like, why am I doing this? And I think the guys that ended up winning ended up doing something like 40 hours or something of running.

It is incredible, isn't it? But I mean, talking of incredible running, your Le Jog record was. I was chatting to a friend of mine over lunch today and we were talking about a mutual friend that cycled Lands end to John O'. Groat. I think he did it in 10 days and he was pretty happy with that. So the fact that you ran it in, am I right in saying 12 days?

Yeah.

I mean that is astonishing. Well, what. Remind me what? You beat the record. So what was the total time and how much did you beat the previous record by?

So it was 12 days and 30 minutes and I beat it by around 10 hours.

And the fact that it was 12 days and 30 minutes. Were you pushing? Did you mentally have 11 something in your head or was it just if you were a minute faster than the record, you were happy.

So I'd done all my planning based on finishing it in 11 and a half days. So I'd given myself a 24 hour buffer because I knew from having done this stuff before, like I knew something would go wrong. So I wanted to actually finish at some point on the 11th day because it was my birthday. I thought that would be a good birthday present. It wasn't. So it was a very painful one.

Particularly if you didn't finish. So you just kept running through your whole birthday view.

Yeah, and then that one because I was like, technically I finished on my birthday because I didn't go to sleep. I just pulled an all nighter. So I'm taking that as a win.

But you weren't really in partying mood by the end of it, I suspect.

No, no, we've like, we. The last day was pretty grim because we ended up getting a northerly storm come in. So we had like 90 mile an hour winds literally blowing us off the road. Rain. It was, yeah, it wasn't, wasn't much fun. So we pretty much finished. Everyone was wrapped in blankets and it was like, okay, see you later. There was bicycles guys beginning their cycle from John O Groats heading south and they having to push their bikes out of John O Groats because the wind was just blowing them off to the side. It was insane.

Yeah, I mean that 90 mile an hour I was, I was doing Iron Man Talon in over the summer in 40 mile an hour winds. But, but yeah, 90 mile an hour winds would be scary, I should think. And so I think I heard you saying that you were expecting sort of the Scottish part of the race to be the really hilly bit and the really the tough bit. But I think you got a bit of a surprise with Cornwall, didn't you, and the southwest. So talk me through what was it? What were the sort of different stages in terms of the landscape, like, and where were the challenges that you expected? And where were the challenges that you didn't expect?

Yeah, so Cornwall and Devon were way hillier and like on the elevation, like once we had finished, they were the hilliest days of the whole thing, despite going over like through the Lake District and up and through the Highlands. So yeah, like on paper you think the Lake District and the Highlands are going to be. Be pretty hilly, but actually it was Cornwall and it was just relentless down there because there's just really. The uphills are like 3k long and it was fine. It was the downhills that smashed my legs up on the first day because you've then got a 3k downhill which you can actually run pretty quickly. And I was trying to hold myself back and run slowly, but when you're fresh and it's the first day, it's quite difficult. Quite difficult to do. So. Yeah, that was definitely a lot more brutal than I thought it would be. Going into Wales was. That was also pretty hilly and I really struggled that day. I think that was like day three that we went into to Wales. I had a bit of a sense of humor failure at the end of that day.

And.

Yeah, but the rest of was just a grins like the whole thing, it was just, you know, all I wanted to do was just keep moving forward and you just had to like, suck up the pain a little bit. It wasn't the prettiest roads. You're on dual carriageways for 90% of it. When you got to Scotland, it was a little bit nicer because you're still on a dual carriageway. But where in England a lot of the dual carriageways have the big hedgerows either side of them. In Scotland they don't have that. So you could actually, you know, take in the views a little bit more and it was a little bit nicer to look around. But yeah, you're. You're on a dual carriageway, I'd say. Yeah, 90% of the route.

Yeah, that doesn't sound quite so appealing now. And you're on tarmac for almost the entire route, aren't you?

Yeah, I think there was like a 10, well, no, maybe 5k stretch near Bristol somewhere where we were on like a gravel path and then a 10k stretch in the Pentlands where we were on trail. Apart from that it was road.

And is that just because it's far quicker to run? Like we were just talking about far quicker to run on the tarmac. Does that cause you more injuries? I know you had a few injuries which you can maybe tell us a little bit about, but do you think that's exaggerated by being on tarmac as opposed to trail?

Yeah, definitely. Like your legs are just smashed up. You know, trail's a bit more forgiving on your legs. But I was doing it for a record so I was like, I'm going the quickest way and basically just drew a line straight up. The UK was like, right, that's the route.

It strikes me that the line straight up the UK wouldn't go through Wales. But it. Why would it? Why does the.

I might be stupid because of otherwise. Where the. What river is it? 7. If I made that up.

Yeah, yeah.

How. Yeah, how that cuts inland. You have to go over the bridge and up. It's the quickest way.

Yeah, yeah, I see. And you were, am I right in saying you were running from 5:00am to 10:00pm?

Pretty much, yeah.

And so you must be fairly a lot sleep. There's, you know, by the end of it, sleep deprivation must be. Well, particularly when you're pulling an all nighter to finish. How did you deal with the sleep and how did that impact you?

Yeah, that wasn't much fun because you just feel like you're jet lagged, like you're just tired because even when you are sleeping it's too painful to sleep. Like your muscles, they just because you're moving so much they actually don't switch off. So they're like continuously firing and every time you roll over it's excruciatingly painful. So yeah, it's just one of those things you had to suck up a little bit. I tried not to think about it that much. There's nothing you could do. So like one of the girls that was on the support crew, about halfway through she was like, you know, you're loads ahead, why don't you take like a 12 hour break? But I just thought that was a bit stupid because I was like, I knew at that point 12 hours wasn't going to make a difference. The only way to like get that sleep back and to feel normal again would be to stop for two weeks. So, you know, it was just, yeah, just I guess like embrace the pain and just. And the tiredness and I knew it would end eventually. So.

When you get close to the finish you can kind of accept that it's that it's nearly over and that kind of motivates you to get, get to the line, doesn't it? But you did pick up a few injuries along the way, which I think were they, did they start around cellulitis, is that right? Or was that just one of the spin offs from it?

Yeah, I'm not too sure how that happened, but it was either from like I had some dry needling, like acupuncture done on my shin and we had to like draw through my toenails because I've got blisters underneath my big toenails.

So you say that as you. It's just a matter of fact passing. That really doesn't sound very pleasant.

Yeah, it wasn't the funnest thing, but it was really nice. Once you'd release the pressure from your toe, then it was great. But yeah, it was one of those that basically ended up me getting a skin infection in the front of my shin, which is cellulitis. And yeah, the only way to get rid of that is to take antibiotics. And it was just lucky that we had a doctor with us and he had taken a picture of my shin and sent it to his doctor friends. And one of the other ladies in that group that he was in was an ultra runner and she's like, I think it's a cellulitis. It's like what a few ultra runners get from like multi day runs. And then he was like, okay, you need to go on antibiotics. Which I wasn't particularly happy about. But he was like, well, if you don't start taking antibiotics then you're probably not going to finish. And it, it probably didn't, it probably didn't start to kick in properly until we had finished the run because I think it was only on like day nine that I got put on the antibiotics. But yeah, that wasn't the funnest thing in the world.

And you, I remember listening to your. When you were talking about it on another podcast, you were talking about a strategy of using alarms to make sure you ate and drank at the right time. Can you talk us through that? How did, how did you ensure that you got the right fuel? And what were you. And what were you eating during that time as well?

Yeah, so I just put an alarm on my watch to drink every 10 minutes and I had a mix, I had one water bottle with electrolyte and one with water. We just sip that throughout the day. And then eating, yeah, another alarm every 30 minutes. And I just ate a whole host of things from sandwiches, pizza, pasta, Fruit, yogurt, vegetables, like everything, like, but just like small little bits all through the day, which is not as fun as it sounds because by like day eight, because you're eating and drinking so much, I end up getting like ulcers all in my mouth, which was then really painful to eat. But obviously you have to keep on eating otherwise you're not going to get to the finish line. And I think, yeah, my fueling strategy worked really well because I never had a different energy, like the whole time never felt I'd like hit a wall or bonked or anything like that. So for me, just eating, you know, constantly, constantly keeping up, topping up your carbs the whole way through. And I think I lost in the 12 days like 2 kilos, which wasn't that bad because you are in a deficit because you, you can't, you're moving so much. So, yeah, I was pretty happy with how that went.

Well, you can lose a kilo just on an hour on the turbo trainer. If you're so. So the fact that you've got two kilos over, over that time frame is astonishing. And, and is it the fact that you were, because of that alarm, you were eating? You know, when you go for a long run, it's very easy to think for the first hour or hour and a half, oh, I'm not, I'm not ready for anything yet. And then you start eating. Is it because, you know, were you eating right from, from the, from the off, you know, every 30 minutes?

Yeah, I think, well, that's like a massive mistake that so many endurance athletes make. Like they don't start eating from the beginning. There's no point starting to eat at 90 minutes because your glycogen stores are then depleted. So you're then trying to dig yourself out of a hole. So, you know, I've been pretty good at training myself with nutrition and I always do it. If I'm doing anything over 90 minutes at 30 minute point, I start fueling myself. And some people are like, oh, but I feel like I don't need it like you just said. But you will perform better and you will recover better if you start eating sooner. So, you know, I was very aware of that and yeah, knew that even if I didn't want to eat, you have to eat and you know, kind of by the end of the day you're overeating. But so I didn't really mind if like for the last hour or so I didn't eat because I had front loaded it so much and I'd Eaten so much throughout the day that it wasn't too much of an issue if I let it slip a little bit at the end.

Okay. And all of those foods you listed were very normal, real foods. It wasn't like gels and energy bars and things like that. Did you intersper. Did you use any of those at all or was it all normal food?

No, all normal food. You're going so slowly that you've got time to eat. Like, I use gels and bars and, like, carb drinks now because if you're racing quickly, you want to be able to take fuel on and digest it quickly. But I was going so slowly and you're going over such a long period of time that, yeah, the thought of gels for 12 days is a bit disgusting.

Just for 12 hours is not great, is it? But no, but I don't suck it.

Up for 12 hours. Yeah, not quite for 12 days.

And a lovely story that I say, maybe you can use this to explain how you felt afterwards, but I think the Hilton Hotel were very kind and gave you an upgrade. But so how were you afterwards in your recovery and how did they try and help?

Yeah, we got there and they gave us, like, this huge room to stay in and upgraded me. And, yeah, I wasn't very happy about it because, like, the bathroom was so far away. I was like, please, can I just have the smallest room so I don't have to walk anymore? And they're like, oh, you've just run so far. I'm like, I know. Yeah, you just. It was the drive back that was just emotional. It took us two days to drive home and everything. Just as soon as I finished, like, everything in my body just swelled up. I think you're kind of in this state of survival mode whilst you're doing it. And then as soon as you finish, your body's like, okay and relax and, you know, all your hormones and everything go a little bit mental. Everything swelled and, yeah, it was just. It was very painful, but I was very conscious of my recovery. My physio said to me, he's like, I think you should try and cycle. Like two days after. I was like, you absolutely mental. I can't even sit down, let alone put my leg over a bike and sit on a bike. So I actually took six weeks off running completely. And I did start to cycle again, but like, a month later, I just had. Couldn't be bothered. I was like, I had no. I was. I wasn't in a rush to train. I wanted to make sure that my body Recovered properly and to be honest, like I didn't really have the inclination to want to do anything, but after that six week point I really wanted to run again. So it was for me that was like the right amount of time to.

Have off, do you think? You know, six weeks sounds like a phenomenal amount of time to me. So does it, does it take you a long time? How much fitness do you lose in that six weeks? How long does it take you to get back to where you were?

Yeah, you lose fitness and you know, but I don't think enough people like take breaks in their training cycle and where you lose fitness, you're easily going to get it back again. You know, you were there before. But the problem is when you do events like this or any endurance events, like all your hormones are all over the place, especially cortisol, which is like your stress hormone. And you might feel like you're fine, but all these things are happening on the inside of your body that you can't see. And if you don't take the time to let all of that settle, I think that's when you can then get injured and over train and burn out. So, you know, I was quite, I was looking with a friend last week actually at like Strava where it shows you your fitness and you know, all through the year I have these like massive peaks and trots where you know, you peak for a race but then you do have that time afterwards. You let, let your fitness drop a little bit and then you build it back up again. But you can't keep going at 100% or you're just gonna, yeah, fall off a cliff.

I think it's actually really reassuring because, you know, I've just had a couple of weeks off running because I, because I strained my calf muscle and I'm sort of itching to get back to training again and. But actually the fact that you can have six weeks off and yes, you lose some fitness but you get back, get back to where you were fairly quickly is, is. Yeah, I think that's really good to hear. Now one of the things, one of the races that I is on my bucket list and I know you have a, I don't know whether it's a love hate relationship with it, but is Comrades. So I, I definitely want to go and run Comrades at some point. But tell us about your comrades experience and also why you chose one time to run from Cape Town to Comrades before you started. So tell us a little about that, about that race.

Yeah, so Comrades is. It's A pretty awesome race. It's the biggest ultra in the world. So you start, you get to that start line and there's 20,000 other, other runners, which is mad because, you know, most ultras, there's about 200, maybe 500 is, is quite a lot, quite a big ultra. So, you know, there's so many people, the whole race is on road, it's like 92K. And I was born in South Africa. So yeah, I got told from quite early on that I wasn't a real runner until I'd done Comrades. So I was like, okay. I didn't, I didn't fall for the bait initially. And then I was like, okay, fine, I'll, I'll give it a bash. So yeah, I've done it four times now and had very different experiences each time. And it alternates going uphill or downhill. So I've done two down, two up. My first one was. Yeah, it was just brutal. It was, you know, running on the road you get different colored medals depending on how quickly you finish. I ended up getting a silver medal which was pretty good for like a first attempt of not really knowing what I was doing, but obviously finished that and swore that I'd never do another one and then did another one like all ultra runners. And yeah, the second one was pretty uneventful. It was uphill, yeah, bit savage, didn't particularly enjoy it. And then the third one, we with a group, there were six of us, like random group of people that all joined together and the plan was to try and run from Cape Town to Comrades and do a Comrades every day. So the equivalent of 90 km a day every day for 20 days. And on the last day, do Comrades race. So we all started out in Cape Town 20 days before. And yeah, I'd never done anything quite that intense. Like I'd done multi day stuff before but this was like next level. It wasn't just me and my backpack mincing about and sitting on a rock. Like we were having to run pretty far to get the 90k in. And yeah, by day six all of us were injured. Like a whole raft of different things. I'd torn my quad. Yeah, a couple of the other boys had done. Everyone was like, had swollen feet and swollen ankles. Everyone was broken. So we scrambled around to find a physio on day six, just went to see her and basically said, what can you give us to put us together to get to this finish line? And we all had to change our goals slightly. Like at that point I knew I couldn't keep doing 90k a day and my parents are coming out from the UK to South Africa to watch me do comrades. I was like, well, I want to make sure that I'm at that start line, but I still want to see how much distance I can do. So it was a bit of a balance between the two. And I ended up running about 820k something around there over the 20 days. And then in the last week I did a taper. So Sunday I did 60k, Monday, 50, 40, 30, 20, 10 through the week. I wouldn't advise that taper. It's probably the most sensible thing I've done. And then, yeah, went and got my number. And for some reason they'd given me like an elite start, which I found ridiculous because at this point, like, our legs are still battered and we couldn't walk. But got to the start, stood on the start line with an elite, you know, elite number, and I just ran. I didn't look at my watch, I just went for it. And I was like, I'll just see what happens. My legs were really sore, like everything hurt, but I don't know, I just kind of went with it, went with the flow. And then right at the end, you turn into the stadium and as I turned into the stadium, this guy gave me a rose. And if you get given a rose and you come in the top 10. So I ended up crossing the line. I then saw a clock which said 6 hours 50 and I was like, oh, my God, how on earth have. I wasn't quite sure. I still don't quite know how I managed to pull that off. Um, but, yeah, finished in ninth place at that race, which was, yeah, pretty, pretty cool.

Um, did dad conclude that you are now officially a runner at that point?

Yes. So I'm now a runner. I'm now a real runner. Yeah, that was a really good one. And then the following year, I actually, I ended up getting a stress fracture because I'm an idiot. And I sprained my ankle and where I sprained it quite badly. It pulled on the bone and gave me a stress reaction, got a stress fracture and then decided that I was still going to try and do comrades off, just cross training. And my longest run was 15km and I think I'd done by the time I could run again to the race. I'd run like 120k. And yeah, it was. That race was a bit emotional. I got to got away with the marathon and then just fell apart. And it was like, okay, whatever. Just I could say hello to my friends and My family that were watching and stopped it, you know, have a drink and a chat and. Bit of a. Bit of a different experience to the.

One the year before with 20,000 people running. Comrades, is it easy to get into? I mean, I appreciate, you know, as an elite runner, you probably don't have these sorts of challenges, but is it massively oversubscribed still, or is it, you know.

So you. You can just enter. You have to do a marathon to qualify. So you have to do a marathon in under 4 hours 45 to be able to. To get a spot. And that has to be. Normally it's like six months before the race that you have to do that. That's like the qualification window. And if you do that, then you get in. But the quicker your marathon time, the nearer the front you start and it's all on gun time, it's not on chip. So if you're at the back, you've already lost 20 minutes. So actually the incentive is to try and get as fast a marathon as you can, because you're then going to save time from. From the go.

And if you. For your first comrades, I mean, I can understand that uphill would seem more difficult, but downhill would also knacker the quads. So first. First comrades. Better uphill or downhill?

So, like, uphill is mentally harder because you're literally looking up a hill all day and. But I find the downhill is physically harder. But if you train properly for the downhill, there's no reason why you can't. And I think the biggest thing with the downhill is doing strength and conditioning and eccentric work. Like, if you do that, you're going to be way, like. And I didn't do that on my first one. But if you do that, you're going to be way better prepared than, you know, just turning up on a running program. Those weights and plyometrics, like, I think, really make. Make the difference. But they're such different races.

Yeah, well, I was going to say we'll come back to the strength and conditioning stuff, but. So it's exactly the same route, though, is it? It's just one's one direction and one's the other.

Yeah, but they're like, they're so different, the races. Like, if you look at the profile, one of them's like across for 60k and then downhill for 40. The other one's uphill for 40k and along. So I don't think you can't compare your times and you can't really compare. You're on the same road, but that's about the only similarities.

And Comrades is one of the ones that. I mean, I'm a massive fan of South Africa so it's always kind of stuck out in my mind. But what are the other. You know, if somebody's entering the world of ultra running, what are the sort of iconic bucket list races that people should be thinking about where Comrades would be on the list?

I think the big ones are probably Comrades Two Oceans, which is also in South Africa, around Cape Town, Western states in America. That's 100 miler possible to get into, isn't it? Yeah, that's very hard. And the other one's probably Ultra Trail Mont Blanc which is in the Alps and that has a whole host of distances from 30k up to 100 miler as well. So I think they're kind of the big.

Yeah. And you have to. So for Western states it's almost. It's very, very difficult to get into, isn't it? And UTMB you have to qualify for, I think. Is that right?

So both you have to qualify. So Western states, you have to qualify. There's two ways to get in. Either there's a golden ticket races. I think there's seven of them now. If you come top two male, top two female, you get into the race. Otherwise there's a list of about 100 races. You have to do one of those races in a certain time. If you've done that race in a certain time, you can then go in the ballot and then you. But your race only lasts for a year. So if you don't get in through the ballot that year, you have to go and do another qualifying race the next year. And similar with utmb, you have to. Depending on how far your races determines what and how many qualifying races you have to do. So you have to do a qualifying race and then you've got to go into a ballot. So. So they're both actually very hard to get into, which. And you have to do other ultras to kind of pave the way to get there. So I always say, you know, do the other ones and get your entries in and then, you know, maybe one day you'll get a place. But it's. Yeah, it's hard.

Well, I know.

And ultra running's just getting more popular now, so it's just going to get harder.

Yeah. Well, I know when I was interviewing Anna Troop, who I know, you know, she was saying that she started ultra running by deciding she wanted to. To run the utmb. And so that was kind of like. But yeah, it Would be a very different experience. Now, trying to set out as that. That being your first significant ultra would be. Yeah, be very difficult to do that. So one of the other things that you were a part of was the HOKA Carbon X race, weren't you, where you were, what were the records that you specifically and also the others were trying to break that day.

So everyone was trying to break their national 100 kilometer record. So everyone was going for that depending on what country they were from. We had people from France and Sweden, usa, Australia, uk. And then the guys were also going for the world record as well. The women's world record is a bit ridiculous, so none of us are going for that. But, yeah, the guys are going for the men's and I was going for the British and the European record. I got neither, but I tried.

I think from what I remember hearing, you were doing very, very well. And then you didn't. You have a problem with. Was it a calf muscle or something that was causing you a problem?

No, I got a trap nerve in the back.

Oh, that was it.

Yeah. So, yeah, and it was like, I was fine. I was like cruising till 50k, like, super easy, super comfortable, like on the pace I wanted to do felt really good. And then all my quad, what happened, like, where the nerve had trapped it just meant that I didn't get full range in my quad, so I couldn't drive my knee up. And then it just started to almost, like, pull with blood a little bit and started to get like an edema, like, swelling in my quad. So then had to just drag my ass to the finish line after for the next 50k, which is really fun.

But you. But you did drag your ass to the finish line, despite the fact that you knew you weren't going to hit the record.

Yeah, I had nothing else to do that day and I knew no one else did either. I was like, we're all here for this. They can wait for me. It'll be all right.

Will that happen again? Will there be a rep? Will there be a second attempt?

There's not chat of it yet, but I hope so. Like, you know, you don't get many opportunities to race in those kind of conditions where you're going for a time, not for a place and where you've got pacemakers. And so, yeah, I really hope they do do it again. But I think it all kind of basically comes down to Big Jim and if he wants. Yeah, he wants another bash at it, so. And he put some peer pressure on him.

He missed it by Was it minutes, seconds?

Oh no, like six seconds or six.

Yeah, something.

Yeah. Ridiculous.

I remember we had. I used to have. My co host used to be Laura Siddall, the pro Ironman athlete who's a poker athlete and we were talking about at the time, I remembered it being yeah a tiny. Missing it by a tiny amount. But yeah, that is, that is pretty soul destroying actually. What other races? So you've had some brilliant. You had a great result at a Scottish Ultra earlier on in the year, didn't you? Less good experience at Canyons I think. Is that. Am I right, am I right in saying.

Yeah.

So what, what, what's your highlight been? Or I suppose rather than just this year actually what's your highl your ultra running career so far? Where do you, what do you think, what do you think stands out the most? Because you've had some incredible results over the years.

Probably finishing ninth at Comrades like after running to it. That's. Yeah, that was pretty, that pretty much changed my like running career so you know I finished that and I ended up getting like a place in the GB a hundred K team at the World Champs. So that race led to a lot of doors opening for me. It was a bit of a pivotal point where before I was like I'm an alright runner but I just kind of thought I was like a good club runner, like nothing special and then I was like oh maybe I'm actually quite good at ultra running after. After that which yeah, it's pretty cool.

Fantastic. Yeah, no that, that is, is amazing.

And.

So you're actually talking about taking your lejog effort and doing it across the us aren't you? Is that a plan that's formulated now or is it sort of a pipe dream? You know, where are you at with running across America?

It's on the list of things that I want to do but probably, I've probably got, you know, like, I don't know, 5ish years left at running for, at World Champs and GB kind of level. So I want to try and maximize that first and then when I'm a little bit older and slower then I'll go and run all day across another continent or any continent.

I just finished reading Limitless by Mimi Anderson and I don't know if you, I don't know if you've read it but yeah, I think, I think doing it at the end of your running career is a good idea because it's might well be the last. Um, yeah, certainly, certainly for Mimi, it it she ended up having to. I Mean she, she now can run, can't you? But not, not in ultra races, as far as I'm aware. Um, so will you with that route, will you. If when you do that, will it be to try and beat the record? Will it be the quickest route possible or will it be more the experience?

I'm not sure. I kind of flip between the two of how either go for the record or do it how like Ricky Gates did it and you know, with a buggy and all your stuff and just go and do it slowly and self supported. I do prefer the self supported trips like that where you can kind of immerse yourself in it a little bit more. But yeah, I keep changing my mind. I'm not sure yet. One's a lot more expensive than the other. Like doing it as a record is very expensive. Where actually just doing it on your own because you can camp and it's a lot cheaper. So it's probably a funding question.

Do you think? I mean, obviously I would assume that you would enjoy the self supported one more because the pressure is off, but yeah. Is that the case or is there still that, you know, it's really lovely to be going after a specific time.

I think whenever I do these type of things, like I still try and go pretty hard and still I would still push myself. It might just not be for a record, but there's different kind of ways to do it. Like another one that I really want to do is the trail that goes all the way through New Zealand. But I definitely want to do that self supported because I think you just want to enjoy the trails and sleep in the huts along the way and definitely take the pressure off racing it.

That sounds amazing. How long is the trail from the length across the length of New Zealand.

I think it's about 3,000 kilometers.

Wow. I've traveled around New Zealand a reasonable amount and that sounds like that would be an amazing trip to do because you've got a bit of a habit of running across countries and around islands and things like that, haven't you? With. Did you run across Corsica? Do I remember? And around?

Yeah.

And is that, is that good? I remember hearing you talking about running around the Isle of Wight. Is that, is that something that, you know, a reasonable ultra runner could achieve? It sounds like I'm thinking of the Strava art it. The Strava must be amazing when you just can loop a whole island.

Yeah. Cool.

Yeah.

I think the Isle of Wight is one anyone can do because it's actually there's a lot of coastal town. So you can break it down to as big or, you know, so there's a race there that people do it all in one day. I did it in two days. You can do it in, you know, four or five and break it down into. Into smaller chunks. But, yeah, I think it's really cool when you go back and you can see that you've run around a whole island like. Yeah, there is something really nice about that.

Have you done. Have you done the southwest coastal part or much of the southwest coastal path? Is it. Is it.

No, I've done like 1% of it, but I do really like it. Yeah, it's beautiful.

Down there is the Isle of Wight. I've never actually. I have been to the Isle of Wight, but I don't remember only a bit of it. So is it. Would it be. Is it an easier coastal route than. Than, say, Cornwall?

It's pretty similar, I guess. You've got the. Yeah, that the ups and downs, it's. There is like flat bits, but, yeah, it's not too dissimilar from the southwest coastal path.

So. Yeah, so it's going to be a reasonably tough 70 miles around, isn't it? If it's. If it. Is that. So coming on to strength and conditioning, you've got a. A strength and conditioning. Is it an online community that you would describe it as. Tell me a bit about why you set that up and what it's. What it's designed to do.

So, yeah, it's called Strength Conditioning and Yoga for Runners, inventively named. And I set it up last year for two kind of reasons. One, I was, like, looking for online yoga classes and I was finding, like, Yoga for Runners, like the usual ones that you find on YouTube. And I was just getting irritated with the instructors where they're like, get your leg and put it behind your head. And I'm like, runners can't touch their toes. So I was like, right, I'm going to invent my own yoga for runners who can't touch their toes. Me included. And, you know, I also know as a runner, we all neglect strength and conditioning. We'll go and run for 18 hours, but we don't want to do strength for 30 minutes. So I wanted to find exercises that are very runner focused while running, cycling focused, that there's no exercises in there that are not going to help you become a better runner. And between the yoga and the strength, find a way to make it achievable to fit in your week. So the sessions are around about 30 to 40 minutes. So they're like short and sharp. Get in, get out, do the stretches. There's none of the like meditation, bowing to the moon. Like I don't, that's not kind of my style. It's like get in, do the stretches, work the muscles that we use quite a lot in running and kind of get out the other side. And you can even split it into two 15 minute chunks and do one on a Monday, one on a Friday. But yeah, I wanted it to be achievable, accessible for everyone and anyone. And I think any level of runner can benefit from doing it. We've got people in my group who have just finished couch to 5k. There's other people like me that run lengths of countries and everyone in between. So it really is for everyone and I think it makes a massive difference. And I really wanted to do, put a program together like this, being a runner and knowing how a runner moves because I think that's, that's quite important. I think a lot of times people will label things for runners but actually they're not a runner and they can't, they can't move like us. Basically why I set it up.

And is it all live sessions or they recorded ones or is it a combination of the two?

So it's a combination. So the yoga and strength and conditioning sessions are always pre recorded and uploaded to the membership platform so you can do them whenever you want. The new sessions are there every Monday to start the week. But then we also have live zoom sessions which are. We have a physio session every three weeks where a physio is there to help if you've got any injuries or niggles point you in the right direction. We have a monthly Q and A if anyone's got any questions and then we have like other experts dropping in for monthly Q and A. So we've had nutrition next month we've got one with like a leading sports podiatrist, we've had sports psychology. So we have all of those dipping in there as well. Just to add, you know, more to the program where everyone can learn a little bit.

So the actual, the strength and conditioning and the yoga sessions are all. You don't do them as a sort of live group. The live stuff is all the sort of Q A stuff. Is that right?

Yeah.

Is it?

Is it?

I mean I, I'm exactly the runner you just described in that go off and do lots of long runs or long rides or swim happily and yet I can't seem to find half an hour a week to do the strength and conditioning stuff, because basically I'm not motivated to do it. Does it. Does it address that motivation in any way other than the fact that you're paying a monthly subscription for the privilege of doing it, or is there any accountability within it?

So we have, like a monthly tracker which you can put on and you can kind of log your sessions. So there is that there if you want it. I think the biggest thing with it is knowing that I've designed the programs to help you become a better runner. So you don't have to think that there's so many different exercises that you can do. There's so much strength information out there. But I will do all that hard work of finding it for you. And then you literally, you press play and you follow along and you don't. I think it kind of takes that thinking out of it because sometimes, you know, going for a run's easy. You put your running shoes on, you want to run for an hour, you get out the door, you either turn left or right, and you go and do your loop where I think strength and yoga and mobility, it can be a little bit intimidating sometimes because there is so much out there and you don't know where to start and what to do. So I kind of hope that I'm taking that out of it for you. You don't have to think you can just press play and just crack on.

Fantastic. And. And with that community, is each session strength and conditioning and yoga, or are they two separate sessions?

They're two separate sessions. So the strength and conditioning, it's each month, it's the same exercises, but within each month. Each week gets a little bit harder because you can't just do an exercise once and then hope you're going to have developed strength. You need to do it a few times to get better at it. So we do that every month. Each week gets a little bit harder. I've actually just done week five of November's Today, which was a bit emotional because it's the hardest week.

And then.

The yoga is separate and that the yoga actually changes every week. And I use the group for feedback as well. So if anyone has a little niggle or something's tight or from the physio session, Paris has given them exercises to do, then I will incorporate that into the videos for you. So, yeah, it's really, you know, someone. Someone actually yesterday messaged me saying their ankles are really stiff. So next week I'm going to do a bit more ankle mobility within the yoga.

So very brilliant. And how have you seen. Is this strength and conditioning approach something you've adopted personally in more recent years? I assume it's not something you've always done. So how is it. How have you seen this strength and conditioning approach impact your own running?

Well, I've got a PB at a 10k two weeks ago, and I'm pretty sure it is from actually, for the first time in my life, being consistent at doing strength conditioning and yoga. Like, I always do track sessions, I always do interval sessions. They've always been part of my program. But for the past year, it's a bit easier for me because I have to film it. But every single week, I have done one strength, one conditioning session, you know, every single week. And actually I'm. Now I feel really strong. I haven't had any injuries in the part, less for twisting my ankle because I'm an idiot. I do that a lot. But I haven't had any injuries and I've got quicker. So I'm like, I'm taking that as a win. And I think a lot of people in the group have found that they're getting injured less and they are running better as a result. But the key is consistency. And, you know, that's why, like, some people, when they join, they're like, can I do more sessions? I'm like, no, just do one of each and get into the habit of doing that every week. If after six weeks, two months, you can easily do two, you can fit them in around training and life, then you can add another one in, but you're much better doing one a week, every week. Then like, binging, doing four sessions because you think it's great. And then, you know, like we all do after three weeks, you're like, I can't be asked anymore. Like, not interested. I'm bored. So.

And is it that you need lots of different funky pieces of equipment or is it just a yoga mat and your own body weight?

So I try and use things that you can find in your house. So a wall, a chair for a lot of the exercises. Definitely need a resistance band. So that's like one of the key things. And then with the strength exercises, I show you how to do them with weight or without. So if you want to just keep it all body weight, you can, or you can. Some people will use cans of beans or bottles of Prosecco, as someone likes excuse.

That sounds like a disaster waiting to happen when you open the bottle of Prosecco later on.

And, yeah, so. Or you can build up to proper weight. So I Kind of give. I show you at the beginning of the month how to do it all. And then with the yoga you can use books or pillows or you can get proper yoga equipment once you, once you've got into the swing of things. But you don't, you don't need that much to start.

So it's pretty, it's accessible. And is it expensive to be a part of this? Are you still. Is it can. It can. You know, I take it as an old waiting list to get involved.

So no, anyone can join. It's 9.95amonth just because I wanted it to be available for everyone. So I think it ends up being like less than a pound a session.

So fantastic.

Cheaper than doing yoga in London, cheaper.

Than doing like yoga almost anywhere, I would think. And a worthwhile investment. If it keeps you from being injury, you know, if it keeps you from being injured, then it's worth every penny. And if it improves your times, even better. Talking of investment, I keep at the moment getting adverts on my social media from stride. The, the, the tech where essentially the running power meter. And there's. And I've talked in the past some of the triathletes like Ruth Astell about Incas, so there's. I suppose that the running world is trying to catch up with the cycling world when it comes to tech and power meters and things like that. What are your thoughts around those sorts of pieces of technology coming into the running world?

I think they work very well in cycling because you can gauge your power a lot easier through the force that you're putting through, like a crank, like how the power meter is designed. But I think for running it's a little bit harder, I don't think. I mean I don't use it. I run on feel or pace if I'm going for a specific time in a race. I don't even really look at heart rate when I'm running. So I'm pretty basic. Easy runs are easy, hard runs are hard. And it's pretty much how I, I like to train. I know some people like data, but I think as well you can become a bit of a slave to it. And I think some people actually don't perform as well when they're just staring at numbers all the time. Like I went for a run with a friend a couple of weeks ago, we're like running, we're doing like a moderate, like a steady run and he's like oh, my heart rate saying it's 190. I'm like, yeah, but it's not because we're having a chat. Oh. But it's what we need to slow down. But we were, like, talking away, and I'm like, if you're having this chat with me, I'm pretty sure, like, 99.9% sure that your heart rate is not at 190. But he's just become such a slave to technology that it then made him slow down. And, you know, someone mentioned on my Strava the other day, they're like, oh, my God, I can't believe your heart rate was 202. I'm like, well, it wasn't like, you know, don't believe everything and all the numbers that you see, because actually, it was probably that number because it was hammering it down with rain. I was soaking wet, and my watch was moving up and down my arm. So, yeah, I don't particularly like all the technology. The only thing accurate on your watch is the time, so stick to that.

Well, I think it's a difficult balance, isn't it, for some people. You know, it's really interesting, and it's something to rely on and kind of work towards, but I understand it can also totally, you know, change your mentality towards your performance and also stress you out. You can get so stressed with the technology that it can actually ruin a good run, can't it? I always ask people on this podcast for any books that they found really useful themselves or any books they find themselves recommending. Or if not books, then, you know, podcasts or documentaries or anything like that. But are there any books that you found really helped you over the years?

I really like Running with the Kenyans. I thought that was a great book. Yeah, I basically finished that and then started Googling how to get to Kenya.

And have you run the Lewa Marathon since?

No. But, yeah, I would love. I'd love to go there and do some training. So, yeah, that's one of my favorite books. And then podcasts, I really like the Tough Girl podcast. I think that's quite nice. It's dangerous, though, because you listen to it and then again, all these, like, amazing women are talking about adventures that they've been on, and then you want to go and copy them. And then also films. I quite like the Barclay marathons. Like, it's just. It's just so ridiculous. Yeah, it's funny. And I really want to do that race just because I can't understand why it's so hard. Like, I want to know why basically most people can't finish it.

I remember interviewing Nikki Spinks about it. And the cold was what got her. Ended up so cold with the wrong, you know, not enough pairs of gloves. Not. I know, couldn't eat because I couldn't. Couldn't handle too cold. But it. Yeah, it is a fascinating race that. So you would like to do that at some point, would you?

Yeah, one day, just because it's ridiculous. Just got to figure out how to get into it. That's the hard bit again, that's another one which is like cryptic to get in.

Yeah. You've got to start writing all sorts of weird applications, haven't you?

Yeah.

And. And so what are you most excited about? Looking forward. You know, what, what have you. What have you got on the horizon that you're really excited about?

I'm actually training for Seville Marathon at the moment, which is in February. And yeah, I'm actually really looking forward to that. I kind of went through a stage where I was like, I'm not really interested in running a fast marathon again because I'm kind of in that zone of I'm not quick enough to get into like a very good. Like a Commonwealth Games team, for example, but I'm like a nav. Like a club runner. So I was like, can I be bothered to try and get like two minutes quicker for, you know, just getting two minutes quicker. But then my main goal next year is to go back and do better at Comrades. So in order to do that I needed to run a faster marathon. And actually I've really enjoyed this marathon training block because it's quite different to what I've. What I've done before. So, yeah, I'm looking forward to seeing how that goes in Feb and then, yeah, Comrades in August now.

And what time are you hoping for in the Seville Marathon?

As near to 2:40 as I can get.

Brilliant.

Just because I've picked a number out of the air. We all do. And then I'll be like, distraught when you're like 241. Actually, I don't really. Doesn't really matter. Like, I think to get elite start at Comrades you have to do a sub 3 marathon. So as long as I get that, it's fine. But I'm going to like go to you below, see what happens and is.

So is Comrades downhill or uphill next year?

Downhill.

Downhill. And am I too late to enter it for next year?

No, they haven't opened the entries yet. I'm not sure because normally it's in June, but next year they've moved it to the end of August, which is Actually really irritating because on that same weekend, it's UTMB comrades and 100k world champs. It's all on the same day. You think they would have like, had a chat deconflicted.

Well, that's annoying because that's very close to Ironman Wales, which is what I'm doing next year as my. Because of my A race. So I probably will have to wait a nut up. Yeah, that means I'm gonna have to. If I do it the following year, I'm gonna be on uphill one to start with, aren't I? That's, that's not such good news.

But at least you can walk the next day after the uphill one. Well, downhill one, you can't walk like. It's so funny seeing everyone like at the next day, like hobbling around. It's like, yeah, I was there.

I do think that sounds like an amazing race. And as I said, I love South Africa. Where did you grow up in South Africa, by the way?

In Johannesburg.

Okay, well, that's, that's kind of a scary bit of South Africa or parts of it anyway, aren't there. But it's, it's an amazing part of the world. Carla, it's been an absolute pleasure chatting to you. Thank you so much. And I wish you all the greatest success with the Seville marathon comrades next year and whatever happens after that. So thank you very much.

Thank you. Thanks for having me on.

If you want to find out more about Carla Molinaro or try her strength and conditioning sessions for runners or a yoga session for runners, then the best place to go to is carlomolinaro.com or you can also track her down on Instagram under the same name. So, Claire, what did you make of that interview with Carla?

It's great. I love her kind of laid back attitude to things as well. I think it's really interesting to kind of hear how sort of people that do triathlon or vice versa kind of find themselves slightly in different sports as well. And the fact that she, you know, found herself kind of into running because she really enjoyed it, I think that's really important that you actually are doing a sport that you enjoy. Because I do sometimes question, you know, and I don't know whether, whether you think the same, but sometimes in triathlon, I think sometimes people are taking it very seriously and maybe not fully enjoying it. So the fact that she was saying, actually, hey, I really love this running, you know, and kind of has really sort of got into ultra. So I found it fascinating. And for me, I think what came across really is the. Not so much the kind of physiological strain or you know, the kind of. From an ultra perspective but I think the mental kind of challenge from that. So the psychological strain of actually, you know, again as human beings what we can put ourselves through and how she sort of got through things on her own. You know, when she talked about being on those kind of long roads. Because she did it all on road, didn't she?

Yeah, she did that. She talked about what about, what did you think about from obviously you're training for arc50, but from a nutritional point of view when she did the jog she was eating all sorts, wasn't she? But certainly no gels, it was all normal food. What do you, what do you think about, did that bring up any, any points that you. Given your expertise in nutrition?

I think it's interesting because again it sort of comes back to me in terms of, you know, you're going at. It's so aerobic compared to like racing a triathlon. Even if you're racing Ironman, it's a total different, you know, kettle of fish in terms of what you're talking about in terms of eating and drinking. You know, she was out on the road and having to do that every single day on day, on day, on day. And you can't, you know, she said you can't go 12 days without, without eating properly. You just can't live or you can live on jails like that but you know, it's, you're wanting food and actually the way that she took food on board in terms of it almost seemed like she didn't have a plan actually, which sounds to work quite well because she was just eating what she fancied when she fancied sort of every 30 minutes. And actually the same principle we talked to athletes about in terms of, you know, set a reminder on your, on your watch or on your headpiece or whatever so that you know when to eat. But I think in, in racing, when you're racing high intensity, even if it's longer distance racing, you know you, for a lot of athletes you just can't take normal food on board. Yeah. Because of your days higher heart rates. It's just impossible because blood's obviously being diverted away from, from your stomach and GI tract.

But it's, I suppose that's, that's the advantage of things like ultra running, isn't it? And you know, like say for example, my plan when we do, when we do the ARC is to, to walk the uphills and all my expectation is that's when I'll do my eating is because once you're walking, it's much easier to eat whatever you want, really. And it doesn't have to be kind of so gel orientated.

Yeah.

I thought what she said around strength and conditioning was really interesting. What were your. Well, actually I've done since I interviewed her, I've done a couple of her strength and conditioning sessions and also one of her yoga sessions, which is significant progress for me because I, as I said on the interview, I'm hopeless at doing the ESSENCE D stuff and the yoga stuff. But actually I have to say her sessions were really accessible, really enjoyable and I'm committing to continuing to do them.

How did you manage to find time to do it? Because that was one of the things, wasn't it, that you were talking about is in terms of like, it's actually really difficult when you're kind of full time working and you've got other, you know, things going on around life and trying to train as well. So just like interested how you found how you found time to do that and is that kind of like a protective time now that you feel that you could, you could squeeze that in now?

Well, it is still a challenge. But what at the moment, what I'm doing is on my recovery day, I'm doing that session or first thing in the morning. But at this time of year that's easier because I then do. I'll do or I'll have a day, usually a Thursday, where I'm racing on Zwift in the evening so I can do a strength and conditioning session first thing in the morning, which is when I do most of my training. But without that turbo in the evening, it will, it will be more difficult, I suspect. So I'm going to have to. I still haven't quite cracked exactly where that fits in. Well, I was just going to say, did you have any. Have any. Take anything specifically from her that what she was talking about with regards to strength and conditioning?

I think I'm an absolutely massive fan of strength conditioning. I think it's. And it's not. I think, I think it's not only for kind of as we age or as we get, you know, get older as athletes. But I think an aging athlete is from 30 onwards, by the way. I think it's 30. It might even be younger than that actually thinking about it. But you know what we put our bodies through day on day. And then again, if you're a working person that's either sat at the desk or Long commutes or whatever it might be. You know, we're sat in these positions for long periods of time and then we expect our body to get up and do, you know, a three hour bike ride or a hard turbo session or whatever. We absolutely have to strengthen our bodies. Um, and it is really difficult, isn't it, with, with training actually, like you saying, I've got all these different training sessions. Where do I, where do I fit in? You know, strength conditioning. And I think, you know, one of the difficulties is, is not tiring yourself out for another training session. So I think it very much is working with your coach and finding out actually when is going to be the best time to put that, that training in and also what kind of strength and conditioning you're doing, because that's obviously got to periodize around what you're doing from a training perspective as well. But I think anything that you can be doing to strengthen. I'm also a big fan of Pilates as well. I think Pilates is really useful alongside things like you're doing like the yoga. In terms of conditioning the body and sort of strength I think is really important. But from an injury prevention point of view and also bone health is, is extremely important.

Yeah, no, I, I can definitely see the need for me to do it and you know, I, I know that my legs in particular are far tighter, my glutes are far tighter than they should be when I've been, see I've been for a sports massage, so I do need to, and I'm getting less and less flexible. So I do need to keep it in my, in my routine. Right, well, that, that, let's wind it up for today. But it's been great to catch up with you again and I just, you know, I love chatting to Carla. I think she's absolutely fantastic. But I would encourage you, you all to try the, try her online masterclass. Put the, the, all the details on the show notes because I found it just, you know, like half an hour strength and conditioning session, half an hour yoga session. You know, you can ultimately fit them in if you, if it's important, can't you? So, yeah. Until next time. Thanks Claire for coming back on. If you're enjoying these podcasts, please do remember to review them and share them so that we can spread the love and allow other people to find the podcast and keep up the amazing training for Ark50. Claire and you, thank you very much. And for everyone else, keep on training. If you've enjoyed this triathlon podcast, please do go to Apple podcasts and rate it and review it. It massively helps us to deliver a better podcast. It helps people find it as well. So, yeah, go to Apple Podcasts, give us some feedback, give us a rating and a review, and please share it with your friends. Because ultimately, that's what allows us to, to keep delivering more and more of these podcasts. And don't forget to download the tribathlon app for more amazing podcasts, but also to help you train, compete, and to build your tribe.