We Should Tri: Different Paths to Success with Non Stanford & Aaron Royle

This is probably going to sound really stereotypical, but from my experience, girls are just more emotional.

Today's episode is truly special as we dive into the world of elite triathlon with none other than both Non Stanford and Aaron Royal. As a married couple and being both current and former professional triathletes, as well as turning coaches, they've experienced the highs of World championships and Olympics, Olympic races, as well as the challenges of balancing personal lives with the intense training schedules. Together, they share the secrets behind their career. It highlights the pivotal lessons from working with the best coaches in the sport and what they've discovered about optimal performance without burning out. It doesn't just stop there either. This episode offers powerful insights for anyone aiming to excel in any field. Non and Aaron discuss the art of resilience, overcoming under fueling and the mental strategies they use to endure when things get tough. So whether you're an athlete looking to elevate your performance or someone striving for personal growth, this conversation is packed with practical advice and inspiring stories that you won't want to miss. So check out this amazing interview with Non Stanford and Aaron Royal Foreign. Aaron, delighted to get you onto the Business of Endurance podcast and it's fantastic to have a couple on that we can talk to about the world of triathlon all together. So I'm really looking forward to this conversation but I love to start things off with where your journey in triathlon began. And so I'd love for you both to tell me, how did you fall into the world of triathlon? We'll go with ladies first and non. You can tell us your story as to how you came into triathlon and then Aaron, I'd love to know how yours evolved too.

Yes, I actually got into triathlon relatively late. I went to the University of Birmingham. I predominantly went there because it's a very good academic university, but also they had a really strong cross country athletics team and at the time and all through my teenage years I'd been a runner and that was my sort of main focus. And it was during my time at Birmingham that I got quite injured and went to try and keep fit. They did a bit of swimming in the craft, so started doing some swimming with the triathlon club and slowly got into triathlon in my second year of university and it just kind of snowballed from there really. It took me a long time to label myself as a triathlete. I think I was always an injured runner waiting to return. But yeah, I think it was like 2012 when I went world in the 23s. I was like, oh, I should probably call myself a triathlete now.

Brilliant.

And Aaron opposite to non. Really. I. I got into triathlon really early. If you can't tell from the accent, I'm from Australia and over there swimming coaches are quite strict. I was a swimmer at the time and they had you swimming a lot. And because of that I was quite good at running as well, just in the school sort of system. And at the time, the swim coach that I had when I was about 11 or 12, he said, you're a good swimmer, you can run quite well. How about give triathlon a go? And even swimming at that age, I was probably swimming in the pool about seven times a week. And so when I got the opportunity to not swim as much and ride my bike as well, which what kid doesn't like doing that when they're 12 years old? I jumped at the opportunity and so progressed from there. Obviously at 12 you can't take it too seriously. But there was a good school pathway program, so I did that within swimming and running and also triathlon. And then it was around about when I finished school I had to make the decision between getting an apprenticeship or going to university or chasing triathlon. And obviously my parents were not super keen on me just focusing on triathlon and obviously especially back then they didn't think there was much of a career opportunity for that. But I managed to convince them after they made me go and apply for a few apprenticeships first, to which I was unsuccessful. Maybe I deliberately didn't put my best foot forward in those interviews, but yeah, anyway, I moved to Wollongong from where I was living up in Newcastle when I was about 17 and that's when I started to it a bit more serious and we actually non mentioned her under 23 world title in 2012. I actually was at that race but didn't really know each other and I also won the under 23 world title as well. So as fate would have it, we both won the under 23 world title the same year at the same race and what, 10 years later got married.

We're going to have to come back to the story shortly as to where you guys actually did meet properly, which is a question I've never had to ask on the podcast before. But before that I just intrigued because there's quite a contrast there and we hear like nowadays we're seeing people come into triathlon younger and turn pro younger and go long course younger and younger, but you guys have done it two different ways. What are your thoughts on how important is it that somebody comes into triathlon young or is like a diverse background. Like I know Non, you came up, came from a gymnastics family. Does that diversity help? What are your thoughts?

I personally think the most important thing for any young triathlete or budding triathlete to do is join a swim club. Swim, swim club. Join an athletics club and run an athletics club and kind of worry about the bike a little bit later. I think you have to be able to swim well to be even in the race and swimming is so technical. It's really very difficult to learn later on in life and pick up well later on in life. So I think yeah, you need to go into a swim club and learn how to swim properly. That's not doing triathlon clubs a disservice. But I just don't think you have the access, same level of coaching, the same amount of swimming that you can get through a pure swim club. And then also with running, I think there's a lot of things that can be learned through doing the drills and the speed work. From a young age, 12, 13, 14, you don't have to be under 10 or anything like that. And I guess if there's somebody that will take you out on the bike and teach you good bike skills from a young age, the most important thing are bike skills. The fitness can come from the other two and be built up a bit later on.

Yeah, and I think very similar to what Non said, but I think that's very specific. I guess to short course we. You're seeing a little bit more in the long course version that you, the bike is really important as well. But I think ultimately I don't think it really matters whether you're in from a young age or come in a little bit later like Non, if you've the skill set, the work ethic and the talent, you, you can be successful. I think the biggest thing at the moment is the younger athletes coming through but there is quite a big dropout rate because it is such a demanding sport and so it's really hard if you're, if you've got a young kid doing triathlon quite early, it's really hard to get them through that sort of late teen into early twenties period because yeah, it is quite demanding. It, it requires a lot from you. Yeah, I guess there is no, I don't think there is any real answer but there is obviously two ways that you can go work your way through it.

I think it's really interesting as well to hear what you said about swimming In Australia, like really young and there was a focus on that and non what you were saying about actually get in the pool and swim being one of those skills to get into triathlon early, we obviously seen a lot of transition from shorter course through to 70.3 and long course triathlon. But some athletes find that transition really difficult. Where do you see athletes really having the skills and the performance to be able to move up to longer course? You know what makes an athlete really good at being able to transition, do you think? Because I know both of your careers have done slightly different things, haven't they, in terms of where you've transitioned?

You touched on it before that there are a lot of people transitioning earlier than they used to into the middle distance field. I think partly because there's greater opportunities now. There's obviously far more racing financially. It's, it is an option now, whereas before it wasn't so much or not as much, certainly not as much as it is now. And I think the biggest, the hardest thing for the transition period is you're leaving a really big safety net. When you're in short course, you have especially you're racing at a certain level, you have good federation support, you have a lot of things taken care of for you, you're traveling as a team and when you go to races you have all of that safety support system. And so when I first transitioned it was, yeah, I had to be honest, I found that quite tough. I was traveling a lot on my own to a lot of races. I didn't have the support, I didn't have the safety net of Federation sport funding, etc. Like, stuff like that. So I think that's what a lot of athletes in the past maybe struggle with a little bit and maybe prolong their short course career a little bit longer than they might have otherwise because they were just scared to make that leap. But now I think it's a little bit easier because it is so rewarding financially. So I think it is you starting to see that it is made a little bit of an easier transition.

It's really interesting, isn't it? Because it actually ties into the title of the podcast in that I always think that the middle distance and long course stuff is much more like you running your own business as opposed to kind of the support of the team and perhaps a little bit less so now than historically. But I think that's, it's interesting and I think people don't realize how much more you have to take on responsibility for by doing that. I'd Love to look back on your careers so far because you both had incredible careers. What would be the standout moment for you? And tell us the story of the moment that you look back on so far and say, that was the standout moment of my career.

I find this question quite hard because I think the highlight of my career in that, winning a World championship title in 2013 on home soil in London, that was obviously, you know, the highlight of my career, becoming World champion. But also to do that with your friends and family there, the atmosphere, you know, British crowd can't be beaten. I honestly think we're one of the best sporting crowds in the world. When you're at home, you have everyone shouting you as a home athlete, so there's that advantage. But I just think they really get behind sport and it's always a fantastic atmosphere when there's a major event in the uk. So I look back on that really fondly. But I think one of the sort of more personal highlights of my career was when I won the World Series race in Hamburg in 2019. I'd had a really tough time post Olympics, mentally and physically. Really struggled with the disappointment of coming forth in Rio. And that kind of spiraled, unfortunately, and I wasn't enjoying the sport anymore. I nearly left the sport, had a lot of niggles, which I think were probably a result of the mental state that I was in and just never really giving my body the opportunity to recover because my mind wasn't able to recover either. And it was a long battle. And just to come back in 2019, after having a coaching setup change, I moved away from Leeds, started afresh with Joel Filial's training group, which is an international group. So to come back from all of that and find myself back on the top of a World Series podium was a really pivotal moment and probably kept me in the sport for those last three years as well, knowing that I still had what it took to be one of the best in the world and to compete with the best in the world. So, yeah, different. Two different races, but for two very different reasons.

Brilliant. Thank you. And before we come on to you, Aaron, to pick up on the Olympic piece, for those people that don't know what happened in the Olympics, why was that so difficult? Tell people what happened there? And was there one or two things that you could pinpoint that helped you turn it around after that difficult period post Olympics?

So, yeah, in Rio 2016, I would gone into the race as one of the medal favorites. Gwen Jorgensen from America was probably by far the favorite gold. But obviously there's two other medals and you never know what's going to happen on the day at an Olympic Games either. And it came down to the last kilometer and it was, there was two people at the road. Gwen Jorgensen and Nicholas Spirit were up the road for gold and silver. There was one medal left and it was me and my housemate, really good friend, teammate Vicky Holland. Bridesmaid, bridesmaid afterwards and at that point not. But yeah, few years later my bridesmaid and I'm still a bridesmaid as well. But yeah, we were really close and it's coming down the two of us, but for one medal and we hit the blue carpet at the same time and Vicky amp sprinted me. So I missed out on a medal. And it wasn't really about the fact that, that Vicky got the bronze. I was delighted for the fact that my friend and teammate had won a medal and I know how hard she'd worked for it. It was more the personal disappointment of feeling like I'd underperformed on the day and yeah, missing out on a medal by two seconds in the end, you know, I'd put so much of myself into that as everybody does that goes to an Olympic Games. There's so much sacrifice and so many inspiring stories around an Olympic Games, you know, obviously wasn't the only one. But I think to have come so close and I put so much of my own self worth on that race as well and I just really found it difficult to come to terms with missing out on what I was worried would be my only shot and ultimately ended up being my only shot at an Olympic medal. So yeah, I think it was 18 months really where I went to a pretty dark place mentally. It wasn't fun. It was more than just about not enjoying my sport anymore. I wasn't super happy in myself and I got to a point where I was like, this can't go on anymore because if you continue in this mental state then you want to talk about worst case scenarios. It wasn't great. And I just knew that I had to remove myself from my current situation and that was being in Leeds. There was nothing wrong with the center or anybody here. It was just that I really needed personal change and to start fresh. So reached out to Joel Filial and he offered me a space in his squad. And yeah, it's literally moving away, moving abroad, starting with a new group of people and really giving a new opportunity was what helped me turn the corner and help me fall back in love with sport. And life again, really brilliant.

It's kind of interesting how a change of perspective and a change of location is perhaps as big a part of that as the kind of thought process around it as well. And Aaron, what about your highlight? Tell us the moments that stand out so far.

Similar to non Hamburg winning 2019. Mine's along the similar theme of off the back of a period where I was struggling for results, struggling for form, lost a lot of belief in myself. And my one was that the Canadian Open PTO race in 2022 where I finished third, which Gustav Eden won, that Christian Blima was in second and I was in third and I was the late wild card for the race. I only found out about 10 days before and yeah, I think it probably been maybe three years. I think yeah, probably 2019 was the last time I probably had a race where I felt like I was in the race competitive part of the race. And so I lost a lot of bleed in that time to the point where I didn't know whether I was going to continue racing anymore. I thought am I past it? Have I reached my peak? Am I no longer competitive with these athletes? And yeah, I came away with the third place finish which certainly to me felt like especially against those guys in that year still to this day, but particularly in that year they were quite unbeatable. I don't think either of them lost a race other than to each other in that last 18 months. So that one was probably a highlight, especially on recent times. And then yeah, some World Series podiums along the way probably up there as well.

It's amazing to hear like stories of all your races and actually the ones that really stand out because sometimes they're the not so great races and sometimes they're the best races, aren't they for both of you. What do you think really stands out in your mind as a race that really taught you something. So it could be a race that didn't go particularly well, but it really changed how you then continued in your careers in terms of changing perhaps your training or your psychology around racing and training. So there any particular moments in a race that really changed how you then went on to train or race?

I spoke about this a little bit before, but it was Madrid World series back in 2012 I think it was. And that was a brutally hard course. Maybe it was 2011. Yeah, it would have been 2011 because it was like in the first year really of me racing on the World Series circuit. And that was obviously in the era of both Brownlees. Absolutely Dominating along with Javier Gomez of Spain that never really, no one else really ever got a look in. And this course was, yeah, like I said, really tough course. And I had a really good. In the end, I actually had a pretty decent race, I think, okay, maybe seventh or eighths. And especially at that time, first year in the World Series, I was stoked with that. But I just, it was just such a big eye opener, being a swimmer, having a strong swimming background. I was up there in the swim and then went straight into a hill on the bike or fairly soon after the transition into a hill and Alice, Johnny, Johnny Brownlee and Javier there, and they just really took it to a new, like a whole new level that I didn't think was possible, that whole 40k ride. And I just remember coming home from that race when I was living in Spain, in Victoria at the time. So we came back for the year in the European base where we base ourselves and just saying to my coach, we need to really change what we're doing training because they're up here and the rest of the pack are quite a bit below and we want to get anywhere near competitive, we're really going to have to lift our game here. And so that one really sticks out for me as a pickle moment. And I don't think had I experienced that, it was very specific that, yeah, maybe eventually we, we may have been exposed to that or I'm sure I would have been, but I think it might have been a bit further down the line in, in my career. Yeah, that one was for me, I.

Think, to me, it wasn't actually a bad race. It was when I won Weldon's 23s in 2012. And I think I touched on it before is that realization that, oh, well, actually maybe I can do triathlon and maybe I'm okay at this. And I wrote a blog on the way back from Dover in Auckland, in New Zealand. I wrote a blog on the plane on the way home and I said something like, it'll take years of hard work and a whole lot of luck to convert an Atlas 23 title into a Senior World title. But I made a promise to myself that I wouldn't be someone that wins the world of 23 title and just fades away and never really translates that into senior success. And so I made a commitment off the back of that race that I would say no to more things. So I was still living probably a bit more of a student life. I'd moved to Leeds. I'd been here for a year, but I Still enjoy, go out for coffee. I'd never say no to friends. I'd always do things that people asked me to do it. And I made a commitment to myself to say no and to really commit to triathlon and only ever make decisions that were positive for performance. And so that winter I made huge steps forward by just making sure I went to bed early, didn't socialize as much as I used to. And I'm not saying you have to be a permit to have success, but I think I just made such a huge lifestyle change from being a student athlete to being an elite athlete. And yes, ultimately took me a year then to go from being under 23 to the senior world champion and didn't expect it to have that much of an effect. But obviously it was a really profound moment from that race forwards.

Amazing, I think. Isn't sleep the most underrated performance enhancing add on that? You know, like it just seems to be. It comes up in the podcast time and again and I think it's an easy one for people to miss in all walks of life, but it really is an important part of it, isn't it? So I alluded to the question earlier, but we need to know how you guys got together because this is the first time we've had a married couple on the podcast that are both professional triathletes or were professional triathletes. So tell us a bit about how you got together, but also what were the challenges and the advantages when you were both professional athletes being in a couple together and how has also that influenced. So you're still competing Aaron, but you're now focusing on coaching? Non, I believe. So how has that influenced those kind of career choices post marriage?

I guess we met just through racing on the World Series circuit. We'd be at the same race venues time after time and we had mutual friends, so we're introduced through mutual friends. And then you'd end up going for dinner as a group after races and that soon became going for dinner with each other.

And we met dancing on the table at a bar in Nice, Wayne's Bar in Nice. If anyone ever been there, they'll know what we're talking about at the club in Nice that all the Brits or English speaking people go to and it's notorious for dancing on the table. So that was like it used to.

Be our last race of the season because the French Grand Prix final was often in Nice for many years. And so the after party was always at Waynes. But so there you go, that's where we first met. Yeah, I guess it's worked well over the years in that we both really understand the demands of each other's job and the demands of this lifestyle. You know, it's not a 9 to 5 job. You don't switch off at the end of the day or at the weekends. Triathlon is a lifestyle ultimately and there's.

No such thing as weekends in our job, whether it's as an athlete or now as a coach. Benon. We have our easy days, of course, of training, but Sunday is no different till Wednesday or whatever. It's just, it's just all the same. I think probably maybe the biggest advantage and at times it can be a negative, is we both ride that emotional wave together of each other's success and all failures in quotation marks. When you ask the question about biggest career highlight and no one was answering it, I was thinking in my mind what my biggest highlight for me of her and for sure was when she won the 2022 European Championships. I believe. Like, I think honestly that's probably one of the biggest highlights I've had in sport, like watching whether it's myself or non. Yeah, we can have some incredible highs off each other, but then also there are obviously some lows as well. And so we both share those same emotions at times.

Double the highs, double the lows.

Not double the lows. Point. I'm just thinking when I come in from a really tough training session, I'm hangry. My family know that they need to stay out the way and just let me get something down me. Otherwise I'm going to. I'm going to lose my rag. You guys must come in from a hard training session together. Both be but I mean does that cause problems or does it give you more empathy for each other?

He usually lets me shower first, so he probably feeds a nice shower and then we swap over. Then we probably stay out out of each other's weight for about half an hour. But yeah, I know one thing I guess that you have when you're both doing the same thing is that you go to work together, you spend all day together, you come home, you spend a lot of time together. And so you don't like, oh, what do you have to at work day? Because I know I rode next to you for the last four hours. I know exactly what you've been doing. So, you know, spend a lot of time together and that, that can be challenging as well as a couple. But I think we've managed it pretty well, so.

Pretty well. Yeah. I mean a dinner Chat Sometimes you're limited.

Yeah you're tired, you spent all day together.

It sounds like it could be amazing and supportive in so many ways because you understand each other, don't you? But I can totally understand maybe the. The limited conversations on those days as well.

Sorry one yeah. One thing I just remembered then as well is that there is very few that would understand this but I we actually bought a new house when like very recently and I was away on training camp prepared for some upcoming races which fell on the date of our movie day and so you know non did the whole move with the help of family and friends whilst I was away on a training camp. But because she's come from the athlete herself she understands that these training camps are quite important, these races are quite important. I stayed and did the training camp while she did the move.

Context where was the training camp?

I was up in Fort Remote up in the French Pyrenees, beautiful spot and Donald did lead moving everything from one house to the other. I guess I probably wasn't super popular but that's just an example of she really understood that so was a really important time for me and it meant.

I could put everything where I wanted to put it and he didn't get say in it when he got back.

There's some great understanding there, isn't there as well of what you probably need out of a house in terms of where the bike's going to go so you probably have that good understanding. And non tell us a little bit about this transition that you had from your career professionally into coaching. What made you make that transition? Have you always wanted to coach? Is it something you thought maybe when you were competing that that might be something that that you would do and how have you found it coaching rather than being the athlete yourself?

So I dabbled in coaching all through my career really. When I first moved to Leeds I was doing some online coaching with age group athletes and it was a means of earning money in a flexible manner around my training. You know you're not committed to going to an office or being anywhere 9 to 5 I could work that around around my training and it was really convenient and it worked well. So I done some remote coaching over the years but I hadn't really thought that I would go into full time coaching role until it was the last year of My career was 2022 and the assistant coach role came up at Leeds where at this point I'm back training and I knew that it was probably going to be the last year that I would be racing. I've got to a point where it just didn't mean as much to me anymore. I think I was in Abu Dhabi at the end of 2021 and it was coming down to a sprint finish for about seventh and eighth with me and Beth Potter and one of our teammates on the side said, it's going to come down to who wants it more in this sprint finish. And I remember just thinking to myself, do you know what? I really don't care if I finished seventh or eighth year. And at that point, it dawns on me that that's not the person that I or the athlete that I used to be. I used to want to fight for every position, and especially when you're racing a fellow Brit, you always want to get the finish ahead of another Brit. So I think it was at that point it started to dawn on me that maybe it's coming to the end of my career. But I knew in 2022 we had the Commonwealth Games and I'd made a commitment to Team Wales to race for them, especially because of the mixed team relay. So I wanted to get another year out. So when this job came up, it was almost like it gave me the final deadline for my career and for my racing. And especially when I got the job, it was almost a sense of relief that I could leave the sport knowing that I had something to move on to, but whilst at the same time staying within the sport. I loved the sport. I hadn't fallen out of love with it. I just knew that racing at the highest level probably wasn't for me anymore. And my body was really struggling. I've got arthritis in my knee and I was struggling to string more than one or two good races together in a season. So it's kind of amalgamation of things. And I also love the idea of helping the next generation fulfill their potential and their sort of dreams and goals and ambitions. So, yeah, it was a really good move, actually. And whilst it is difficult going from being the athletes to the support network, the shift goes from being all about you to being all about somebody else. I've actually quite enjoyed not having all the sort of limelight on me, in a way, and just being sort of in the background of other people's journeys. And, yeah, there's definitely been challenging times moving over, but on the whole I've really enjoyed it and found it really rewarding.

It sounds so positive in terms of that transition that you have made, because there's so many athletes that we certainly see that don't really know where to transition. It must be really difficult when that's been in your life for so many years. How have you approached coaching and are there certain things that you really learned during your years being coached? Do you reflect that in the coaching now or there's some really different principles that you've brought into your coaching.

With athletes, it's really hard to, to not rely on what you've learned as an athlete and not bring that into your coaching and learn from some of the fantastic coaches that I've been very fortunate to work with over the years. I'm sure I brought elements of all of their coaching styles into what I'm doing. I think it's a really fine balance though, of using your experience to help teach them and help guide them and not being like, oh, well, I did this during my career and yeah, in this race that I did and I've tried really hard to not talk too much about my career and what I've done, but convey the lessons that I learned in a positive way to help them and hopefully it help them avoid making mistakes that I made. And I've learned so much from being on the other side and, and having a different lens which to view triathlon and how you train. I think it's much easier as well to advise someone and see the bigger picture than it is with yourself. It's very easy to give advice and not to take it, isn't it? And yeah, I've definitely found that with coaching I see a much bigger picture and understand things a lot better than when it's just about myself.

I understand from listening to other podcasts where you've been on, you have a somewhat contrasting view on using the use of technology in triathlon and coaching and all of this sort of stuff. And technology is something I'm always looking for new technologies and new ways that we can improve sport and spend money on gadgets if nothing else. So it's a question for you, Aaron, but I know non has the more non tech background. I know the lead setup. We're only introducing Garmin watches maybe eight years ago or something. But do you embrace technology as much as I think? And what technologies do you think have helped you most in your journey through racing?

I wouldn't say I'm heavily reliant on technology personally, but of recent years I've worked with coaches that are, I've invested in a little bit because that's what they use. So my current coach, Dan Blues, is massive on heart rate variability. He gets a little bit annoyed because everyone, whenever you say Dan Blues, they say, oh, are you not eating carbohydrates? Because that's like his big thing is also high fat, low carb diet, which he doesn't do with me personally, but he's done his PhD and written many papers on heart rate variability. He's like, why can't anyone talk to me about this? But obviously that's a big technology piece that he uses. And because he's big on it, then I've invested in it as well. And especially when you're being coached remotely like I am. He's in New Zealand. He relies heavily on that technology to help write a program. And he can tell whether someone's adapting to a certain block and whether you can press on with that or need to back off a little bit. And so his philosophy isn't really on a three week, on one week off cycle that a lot of coaches use, as in three hard weeks or three built weeks and then an easier week, just adapt to that and then go through that cycle again. His philosophy is that we continue to work hard with easy days within the block, but we continue to work hard. And if the data is telling us that we need an easy to back off a little bit, then we do that. And because he thinks that after three weeks, on the fourth week, you might be really up the training. So why throw in an easier week right now when you're in a period where you really adapted to the work that you're doing? But equally you might need the easy week after two weeks or 10 days or an easy few days after that period. Yeah, that's one example of using technology. He's obviously, because of being a sports scientist, he's into the lactate. Not that I think I've been working with him for 18 months now. And when I first started working with him, I didn't have a lactate monitor, So I bought 80 strips. I think I'm still. I haven't used them all. It just tells you I'm not using them every day. But just for key sessions or testing to get your right training zones with.

The heart rate variability. Exactly what is he looking for that tells him that you should take that easier session?

We use the aura ring, which obviously then gives you your heart rate ability. Mine's actually charging right now, so I normally do have one on and then. And that heart rate for training, not sure if you've heard of that or not, but you then upload your data from the OURA ring and that just over a long time gives you a trend. And if it's trending down, obviously yeah, it gives you a color code basically to easily understand it. But he then puts that into a program that he's developed himself and then he can see over periods of time whether you're quite low and whether it's related to illness, your body temperature, your heart rate itself. So a multitude of factors that go into it. But essentially, yeah, he can almost predict a little bit as to when you may need a bit of an easy period just with trends over time. That's how he uses it. And I think like for me it's probably the only way that I could do remote coaching because I'm probably not the best at communicating, especially when I'm tired. It's an easy way for him to objectively look at how I'm doing without me having to tell him or maybe not telling him the whole picture. Yeah, so that's probably over the years the most technology based training that I've done. And then obviously the power meter, heart rate, all of those sort of stuff I've used for and Garmin's used for a long time.

I think it's really interesting like with all the evolving technologies and actually how you use the data. So it's interesting to hear you say, actually being coached remotely. It's a way for both of you to be able to see trends in training and actually if you feel good and it looks like you feel good, then you can get on and train. So I really like that approach of actually using the data because I think so many people make the mistake of collecting loads of data and then they do nothing with it, they don't know what it means. So I like the way that you're using it there. I just wonder. These are nutrition related questions. As you probably know, my background is as a performance nutritionist and clinical dietitian, so I'm always interested from a nutrition side of things. Aaron, how have you found the transition with nutrition from being short course into longer course? Because obviously they're two different entities. So is there anything that you've really learned by mistake or things now that you've really optimized in terms of nutrition?

I think it's evolved a long way from when I first started triathlon, even sporting in general in a positive way and not just the nutrition itself, which that has also helped. And that's why we start to see a lot of athletes that can compete at high intense levels with 130, 140, 150 grams of carbohydrates you now start to hear, which is mind boggling, like I even remember when I did my first half in 2016, it was about 1 gram per body weight. That's half roughly of what people are doing nowadays. And even then it was but be careful because you may get some GI issues. So there's that aside. And so the nutrition products and brands have really developed their products so that people can, you know, not just stomach but then utilize those sort of carbs. But I think just a mind shift in general within the sport of triathlon that to really fuel for performance, not for body composition. I can remember that even when I first started in short course while at racing at an international level, my mindset was that I needed to get to a certain weight first and then I worry about getting fit after that. So I had this magical number in my head that that was my sort of race weight. And off the back of an off season or a period where we may not be in a race period just yet, I knew that okay, I needed to get to this number first. And as long as I got to that number, then I'll worry about trying to get fit, which is, yeah, obviously looking back now is complete opposite as to what I think is a bit more of the norm and in a good sense. So yeah, I think that yeah, real big mental shift from the only performance first over body composition.

I think what you say is just, it's so important and I wonder whether the culture has also changed within the sport of triathlon and in in sport generally. Fueling yourself to be able to perform over body composition I think is really important. And that brings me on non to a question for you because I wonder, you were obviously in the sport for many years. How have you seen that change from a nutrition perspective? How do you now coach your athletes? What do you see them doing from a nutrition perspective? Has that culture really changed within short course?

The culture has massively changed, yes. So I think one of my biggest regrets as an athlete when I look back at my career is my lack of understanding of the importance of nutrition. I think I massively under fueled for large parts of my career and I think that was because there was this false idea that body composition was the most important thing. And I think that's why I got injured quite a lot over the years, why I got sick because I was just chronically under fueling. And I do think there's been a huge shift in people realizing that they need to fuel their bodies correctly. Especially with women. It is now accepted that you should have a menstrual cycle and it should be regular and Just because you're an athlete is not an excuse not to have one. Whereas when I was growing up as an athlete, it was like, oh, yeah, but you're an athlete, it doesn't matter. You don't have a menstrual cycle. And if you get a couple in your offseason, then that's fine, you're totally healthy. But that is not the case after all. And it's such an unhealthy mindset to have. I think if you are coaching a female athlete, I want to know that they're having regular periods, preferably every month, and if they're not, the first thing I would probably look at is, are you fueling enough and are you getting enough sleep? Because if you're not getting those things, then your body's not balanced and it's not coping with the training load, and we can't progress the training until you've got those things sorted out. So, yeah, I think there's been a huge shift and like I said, look, just a general acceptance now. And it's not anymore for female athletes to have regular periods. And with females, I guess it's easier because we have that clear marker of if our bodies are healthy or not. It's probably a bit more difficult for guys. And I think the problem with men as well, it's more uncommon for men and the fuel or to have eating disorders. But with women, it's something that is far more common, so it's looked out for more. And people have a closer eye on females that are maybe losing weight quickly. But with guys, it can often fly under the radar because the warning signs aren't there and people aren't necessarily as alert to it. So it's something that you have to keep on, really keep an eye on with both sets of athletes, really. And yeah, I think this. Everything's trending in the right direction and people are realizing the importance of carbs, which is a big progress.

We've talked about this on the podcast a few times, and particularly the male athletes as well, because you're right, there's less awareness of it. It's less expected Now. I suspect it's probably nearly as big an issue if it's not. But now that you're coaching, are there any other aspects that you feel need to be different between coaching male and female athletes, other than nutrition?

This is probably going to sound really stereotypical, but from my experience, girls are just more emotional. And I feel like you ride much bigger waves with female athletes. And I am. That's one of my Strengths coach is that maybe because I am female, I can really relate to the ups and downs that a female athlete may go through. Guys tend to be happier just getting on with things and putting their heads down and plowing on. But again, I think you have to be really aware of that as a coach because sometimes the male athletes aren't communicating with you as well. And actually they're riding a lot of ups and downs as well, but they just don't tell you about them. So I sometimes find it easier in many ways with female athletes because you know exactly what's, what's happening, how they're feeling, how they're coping, whereas you really have to coax it out of some of the guys. Especially the younger male athletes that I work with. I have to work really hard at forming a relationship with them where they're comfortable and confident to tell me how they're feeling and what's going on and have put a brave face on all the time. So I think there's different challenges with different athletes and it's. I think there's not one size fits all for any athlete. It's not like you deal with female athletes like this and you deal with male athletes like that. I think you have to individualize your coaching to each individual athlete because every athlete needs something different and they have different life experiences to each other and so approach triathlon and training it in different ways.

I think it's really interesting, isn't it? And the world of research at the moment is looking at actually how do females and males differ when we're from a coaching perspective. Obviously, with my interest in nutrition, I think it's really great now that there's a lot more research in that area coming out and the differences that do exist. So moving in a slightly different direction and just thinking back to just a couple of months ago, Aaron, I believe you were in, in Paris and you were dieting for one of your teammates in the Paralympics. So do you want to tell us a little bit about that? And how does that differ from competing individually on your own? How, how was that experience?

Yeah, to be honest, it was amazing. So Sam Hardin, his name is, he reached out to me maybe about 14 months ago, split into my DMs on Instagram. And yeah, we took it from there a little bit. But when we first spoke, I'll be honest, I thought, great. Like this be a great opportunity. I'm happy to help you out. And if he was happy with his result, then I'm happy. I didn't think I would feel so invested. But I quickly did. And at the end of the day, I'm a competitive athlete, elite athlete as well. I know some other guys as well, the guy for other athletes. And so then I started to get quite competitive. I knew some of the American guy, Ben Hoffman, and I was like, I want to beat you, man. Like, this is personal now. So, yeah, I did become quite invested and I really wanted him to have the best race that he could. But flip side of that, ultimately I'm there to help Sam. And I, like, it's his Paralympics and that's what he's been working towards for many years. And so I could also enjoy it a lot more than maybe I would if it was an Olympic Games or the Olympic Games that I've been to. Because the pressure is much less to the point of where I remember said in the same course as the Olympic Games, slightly less crowds, but still really good crowds. And I remember walking down on the pontoon to the start line, being able to look around, take a moment and go, wow, this is actually pretty damn cool. The setting of right near the Eiffel Tower on the Alexandria Bridge, with crowds swimming in the scene, even though the water was disgusting, but still it's like a pretty iconic place to have a triathlon. And I just. Yeah, I just remember I was able to really soak that in, whereas you ordinarily probably don't. You know, you're just so bleak and focused that you don't really get a chance to look around. So it was an amazing experience. The race itself, we actually, we had a mechanical, so that the tandem bikes, they are a piece of work because if you think about it, they often have. Out of a corner is a very technical course. They all often have 800 watts. So 1600 watts going through the bike between two people, which, over a regular time, over a long period of time, things flex and move and not always super stable. So parts break a little bit. And yeah, we just. We end up having a mechanical where the chain slip and they're quite difficult to get back on because it's a fixed chain, not like a normal chain where you can pull a derailleur and get a bit of slack on the chain and move it back on. It was a fixed chain and cost us a bit of time, and it cost him a medal. We're about 50 seconds off the podium, and that lap where the chain came up was about 55 seconds. So at the very least, a chance for him to be fighting for a medal at that game. So that was obviously A little bit disappointing in that sense. But overall it was a, yeah, super positive experience. And there was a couple of other pro athletes like I said. So Ben Hoffman from America, the women that won the guide was Sarah Perez. She's racing in a T100 PTO tour as well. So hopefully like more are willing to to do it now and guides for some other athletes as well because yeah, I think it's quite a rewarding sort of experience.

I know when Nikki Bartlett talked about it and I think also Laura Siddal did it, they just had nothing but positive feelings. They had exactly the same experience and it's a lovely way to be able to support somebody on their journey. But it's also probably. Is it more like the team relay within triathlon because it becomes a team sport as opposed to an individual sport? Would that be fair?

Yeah, that's. Yeah, that's how I look at it as well. But maybe even less pressure so I can enjoy it a little bit more. Because obviously in a team relay you're out in the race by yourself and you're direct performance has a direct impact on the team's result. Whereas effectively based the longer that's the faster than the athlete be able to run faster than him, then it's happy days.

It sounds amazing. Now on this podcast we always look for things to inspire listeners to go off and to take their learning journey further. So there are any books or any kind of podcast, documentaries, films that you guys have found inspiring on your journey or you find yourself recommending to others?

Yeah, so I don't read a lot of books. One that stands out, which is quite a popular one. So I'm sure you've maybe had it on the podcast before, but Andre Agassi, the open, brilliant book, highly recommended for anyone that's listening that hasn't read that one before and podcasts again. So down another sports route. I very much like the Howie Games, which is an Australian podcast. I think it's Australia's number one sporting podcast. And yes, there are a lot of Australian guests on there. But one particular episode for me that stands out is with Kate and Bronte Campbell. They are Australian swimmers and it's a really powerful podcast for me. I think I actually told non to listen to it when I knew she was going through her period post Rio Olympics. Because Kate Campbell, also in in the Rio Olympics, went in as the overwhelming favorite. 100 meters freestyle. Could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure she broke the world record in the semifinals and then race well off her best in the final. And finished, I believe was fifth or sixth. And just her recounting that story was really powerful. And yeah, I remembered actually passing that on to non to listen to it because I think there was a lot of similarities in that story. So, yeah, I'd really highly recommend the Howie games in general, but that particular.

Episode, Brilliant, thank you. I've never listened to that, so I'll be checking that out. Norm, any things to add to that?

Less down the inspiring avenue. But I really enjoy listening to the Science of Sport podcast with Professor Ross Tucker. I think he touches on some really interesting topics within sport as a whole, but very much within endurance sport. They talk about cycling a lot, triathlon. He's very involved with rugby, actually. So they talk about rugby from time to time, but just lots of interesting topics that come up and some of them are like 10 minute snippets. So there'll be a new study that comes out or a new piece of science and he'll just do a quick podcast to discuss it from his point of view. Or there's other ones that are an hour and they're, they're much bigger dives into various topics. So yeah, the real sports Science podcast, I would recommend that, if you're a bit of a sports science geek.

Brilliant. Sounds fantastic. Thank you. And we also have a closing tradition on the podcast where we get the last guest to ask the next guest a question without knowing who that guest is going to be. So the previous guest was Michael Crawley, the author of out of Thin Air and To the Limit. And so he's very much a running background. And I think, Claire, you've got his. His question.

Yeah, so he asks. Marison records are getting faster and faster. Do you think we'll start to become slower as a species at some point? And if so, why?

For me, it boils down to, do you believe that the current marathon records have been done clean? Because otherwise, why are you going to slow down? Because technology and science is advancing, you might not progress at the same rate, but I don't see why you'd get slower.

I think you may be overthinking the question a little bit.

What were you going to say?

No, I don't think they're going to get slower. Of course it will slow down at some point, the rate of progression. I'm sure that when they were trying to break the three hour marathon, I don't know whenever that was, that at some point that was a barrier, they wouldn't have thought that two hours ever achievable. And here we are for the men, at least, not far off that. So not saying that we'll ever get down to an hour for the marathon, but I don't think it'll ever slow down or go backwards.

I agree. I don't think it'll slow down. We've got the science now and the technology. So as history has shown, those things are always advancing, so I can't see them regressing.

I agree. And I think it's not just the, the physical science, is it, it's also the psychological science.

The.

I think people, we often talk about it on the podcast, about how the longer the endurance activity is, the more it becomes a mental thing than a physical thing. So I think that is still a space where there's a huge amount to learn. And I think the science, what you're talking about with damn flows and the heart rate variability stuff and, and I bringing that into all the data that we catch on watches and rings and everything else, it's going to keep getting better, but I can't think of a reason why we would at some point go in the opposite direction. Claire, what do you think? I think this is a really interesting.

Question, by the way.

So.

Yeah, I agree. I think at some point it's going to slow down because not all the technologies, but so many advances have been so quickly because of technology in the more recent years. Who knows, Charlie? You know how quickly AI is advancing, for example, maybe we'll see it continue to advance at such a speed that we have done. I don't know. I can't see it slowing down.

I think the AI thing is an interesting factor, isn't it? Because if AI does more and more of our work for us, in theory, we should get more leisure time for some people that will make them gradually get faster and faster because they can maybe train more or. And there'll be a bigger pool of people training. Maybe for other people it will go in the opposite direction. We'll end up with a more polarized society than we have even today. But that's then getting deep. Last question to finish off for both of you. Looking forward, particularly maybe to next year, what are you most excited about?

Well, 2025, is it?

Well, grand finals in Wollongong. That's where our Australian house is. Hopefully we both get to travel over for that in, in some capacity or role and visit our Australian home. So that's something really exciting to look forward to, but that's probably a bit more of a personal thing.

But yeah, professionally, I guess for me, we're in a really fortunate position in triathlon with the amount of opportunities and I think for now it's only going to progress. So the opportunities next year that will come up, that's something to really look forward to. And as non touched on finishing off the year with hopefully a world championships in Wollongong at our hometown, sounds like.

He'S teeing up for a grand finale. And do you think you'll head to long course at some point?

The full distance Leeds Iron man has just been announced.

Yeah. Yeah. I think if there is a pro build that might have to be on the cards. It scares the living daylights out of me but also does somewhat excite me. So I think before I retire and I don't know when that will be, but before I retire I'll have to commit fully to an Iron man first. My coach Dan always thinks that I would be well suited to it just based on some physiology testing that we've done. So based off that I think I'd have to commit to it at some point. But at the moment, the middle distance and also with the pro series now it's not just middle distance. Obviously there's quite a few Iron man races as well. But there is such big opportunities at the moment with the middle distance that it's too hard to turn down. And I don't think. And I've never had been an athlete that is good enough to be able to juggle between two. I really have to settle in and focus on one thing because yeah, I mean I just. Without doing that, I think that I'll just fall too far behind to answer your question. In short. Yes. Just when I'm not sure.

Non. Aaron, it's been absolutely fantastic chatting to you. I think it's really interesting dynamic chatting to you guys as a couple, but also the transition from short course to middle distance, from athlete to coach. I think there's amazing stories there, amazing takeaways for people. So thank you very much and you know, I hope you achieve that amazing success in your hometown next year.

Thanks very much and it's been a pleasure to talk to you guys as well. Thank you for having us on.

Yeah, cheers. Thanks very much.

So what did you make of the interview with Aaron? And none.

It was fantastic to have a couple on the podcast. I don't think certainly since I've been co hosting we've had that and amazingly none of us talked over each other so it worked out really well. I would say possibly we are. It's really interesting to hear some real similarities actually in terms of not necessarily backgrounds and coming into the sport, but actually probably what's helped to make them such good athletes. And by that both of them talked about really focusing in on each individual sport. Aaron was saying about in Australia, they really hammered home on swimming quite a lot and none was saying you've got to swim with swimmers, you've got to run with track runners. So I think that's really interesting just to hear those real similarities coming into sport. What about for you?

I wrote the same thing down, Ashvi, and I think it's common story where, you know, interestingly, one came to a triathlon relatively late, one came to it really early, but they both got the basics in particular in swimming and running. And it just shows you, doesn't it, that actually the experience of different things and only niching down later on, if that's the way you want to go, is just as powerful as niching down early. So I thought that was really interesting. But I also think that the discipline of becoming a swimmer, not just the technique bit and the fact that it helps you build a really good engine, but the discipline of training regularly with swimming seems to be an invaluable trait for later on. And I'm sitting here going, I need to get my children, my daughter swimming more often. They both do swim, but do you really do with getting them into a proper swim club? Although there's not a good one nearby. But yeah, I thought that was really interesting. What about what. What else did you take from the conversation?

I think there's some interesting parts to this actually in terms of from a psychological perspective around failure and really talked about on an emotional level actually about how she dealt with Rio and actually how she felt coming out of that. And I think it's really interesting in terms of what she had to go through to be able to come out the other side of that as well. And I think that could also be reflected in business. In business where there's failures really looking at actually are you enjoying what you're doing? What's actually led to that failure? How are you going to change the business? So I thought thinking about business, I was thinking actually that's really interesting kind of way to also think about your business and then enjoying it. Because she was talking about where she actually towards the end was thinking, actually I don't really mind whether I'm coming. I think she commented in the coming. Coming seventh or eighth actually. And that's where she realized that was probably the end of her career. So I thought that was. I thought that was really, really interesting. What are your thoughts in terms of business on that?

I think it's absolutely right and I think ultimately that's why I decided I wanted to exit my financial planning business because my passion had gone for it. And I think if you've got. There's a saying in man's search for meaning, which is if you know your why, you'll withstand any how. So when you're passionate about something, you'll go the extra mile. You know when, when you're passionate about it, you don't want to settle for 11. You want the absolute best you can be. And as soon as you're willing to just settle for stuff, it shows you that the passion has gone and you've either got to find a way to reinject that passion or find something else that you can be passionate about because otherwise you're coasting and you're never going to do anything. The people that coast never achieve anything particularly amazing because they just don't put their heart into it. So I thought that was really interesting. And just on that failure note, I heard a really good saying recently when I was listening to Ariana Huffington speak and she said that failure isn't the opposite of success, it's a stepping. Stepping towards it. And I really loved that. That was really insightful. But sometimes I didn't think it was the failure that was. The problem is the fact that she didn't care about the failure. That I thought was really interesting. So, yeah, I thought that was fascinating. And the other thing I really like was Aaron talking about the technology and how he's working with Dan Plews on that. I thought that sounded fascinating in terms of really understanding instead of just building a training plan with a block that's easier than based on just a assumption. It's going to be three weeks hard training, one week easier training, using data like heart rate variability to tell you when that should be, because for some it's going to be two weeks and some it's going to be five. That I thought was really interesting as well. What did you make of that conversation?

Firstly, it doesn't surprise me you were interested in it, but no, I was genuinely interested as well. I think there are very many different ways of coaching, aren't there? I think the sports science background is very helpful in terms of training because with all the data you're collecting, it's so important that you understand actually what that data means and then doing something with it. And it sounds like they're really utilizing all those elements in terms of. Yes, that's a way to do training block, but actually work with your body. If it's saying you can get up and go and do some hard training today, why would you not? So that makes complete sense. And yeah, so I think that was really interesting.

I think you're right. I think this. I just. There was so much in that conversation that I really enjoyed. And I think the other thing that I really loved hearing about was how they support each other as a couple and how being as a couple, both understanding that sport and I could, funnily enough, I can empathize because when we were about to move house, I was organizing our golf tour that year and I had to leave the golf tour I'd organized to come home and move house because it just was not going to happen. But I thought it was interesting that they could support each other in a different way because of that experience. But a great conversation with two amazing athletes and loads to take away. I hope the listeners got as much out of that as we did. And for those of you that are listening at home, keep on training. If you want us to keep getting amazing guests onto the business of Endurance podcast, we don't ask for you to pay for us. We don't ask for patronage. All we ask for is that you subscribe to the podcast, ideally on Apple, give us a five star rating because it shows us you care. And if you've got time, leave us a comment. One word is fine, something like inspiring or amazing or something like that. But we really do appreciate it and it will help us to continue to deliver amazing guests on what we hope you find to be an amazing podcast. Thanks very much.