What Happens when Purpose Meets Ambition: Lessons in Leadership with British Cycling CEO Jon Dutton

Have energy and determination. I think have a plan, but don't be afraid to change the plan as you navigate through. It's just like riding a bike, isn't it? Sometimes you want to go in a straight line and sometimes you have to navigate around. If you believe in something, then give it everything you've got.

What does it take to lead one of Britain's most iconic sports into a new era? Well, in this episode we sit down with John Dutton, obe. He's the CEO of British Cycling, to unpack how purpose driven leadership, bold decision making and emotional intelligence are shaping the future of sport. From orchestrating the groundbreaking Rugby League World cup to overseeing the path to Paris 2024 and beyond. John shares the untold stories behind elite performance, everyday cycling, and the entrepreneurial mindset needed to drive system change. We talk values, resilience, media disruption, and why mindset, not just physiology, is becoming the biggest predictor of success in sport and business. So whether you're an athlete, a business owner, or simply looking for leadership inspiration, this conversation is a masterclass in navigating challenge with clarity, ambition and integrity. If you're ready to think bigger and lead better, this episode is for you. So let's dive into the interview with John Dutton, obe. Do you know what? When we look at the back end of this podcast, then we see something really interesting. We see that 57% of the people that regularly listen to it haven't hit the subscribe button. So could I ask you a quick favor before we dive into today's episode? If you're enjoying Claire and I bringing you amazing guests, not asking you for patronage fees, and not jamming the podcast full of adverts, then the best way you can help us continue to do that and make it even better is to hit that subscribe button. And here's my promise to you. When you subscribe, we'll make it our mission, along with the team that supports us, to continue to improve this podcast every week. So thank you so much for your support and for being a part of the Business of Endurance community. Let's dive in. So John, welcome to the Business of Endurance podcast. Really looking forward to chatting to you some more. I know we we chatted briefly in the RAC Club after a very lovely dinner. So looking forward to sort of diving into your journey and what you're bringing to the world of cycling now. And I'd love to start sort of where you started. So you know you've held held multiple roles across major sort of different sporting events, whether it's the PGA Tour, whether it's UEFA and obviously the, the Rugby League World cup, which we'll definitely want to talk to you about. But what first drew you to the business of sport? What brought you into being in the business of sport and what have you learned from that journey that you're now wanting to bring to British Cycling?

Well, first of all, Charlie, thank you for the opportunity. Really looking forward to the conversation. I'm 30 years now in my career, exclusively in the sports industry. So first of all, I would always regard myself as having a privileged experience. I worked across many different sports. I always wanted to be a professional rugby player. And that's where I started off. I am from a town called Lee, 45,000 population. Lee was a big part of the Industrial Revolution, then a mining town and rugby, Rugby league in particular has always been woven into the fabric of the tone. So I had aspirations to play the sports, realized probably after a trial and played one professional game. I was neither good enough nor brave enough. Pursued a career in sports administration, did a degree in sport management at the University of Northumbria, and I've managed to carry on that passion for all my love of sport throughout my career. So reflecting back on 30 years of amazing experiences working with amazing people, you know, just been involved in some fantastic things, but that, that was my motivation. Always wanted to play and didn't quite make it, but have navigated a different direct.

You mentioned that you were brave enough to play, by the way. I was definitely not brave enough to play rugby either. I was far too soft. It was like hiding on the wing. But I've heard you talk, use the words quite often when, when you've been interviewed elsewhere about being bold and brave in business. Do you think that that was crafted as a result of your early days in sport or what brought out bold and brave, this term that I, I hear you use.

I've always been, I guess, ambitious. Determined is probably the, the key word. And it was probably that determination in the early days of App. I couldn't follow through and be that professional athlete that I wanted to be to then use my degree. My first job was on the European golf tour as was, and I just saw opportunity from there. So I think, I think determination is manifest into bold, brave, almost seeking forgiveness approach. But also, you know, I appreciate the council officer for millions of pounds worth of public funding. So there is a balance between really pushing on and being ambitious, but also never stepping over the line of being reckless. But I think the key word probably Charlie, is determination.

I think that's a great Word in, in, in business and in. And in anything, isn't it? Because I think, I mean, we've talked a lot on the podcast about, you know, is it more important to be born with, you know, the, the right sort of talents or the right determination? And I think every time we've ever asked anyone, you know, determination trumps talent. Every. Every time. I think so.

I think, and I think we can learn so much in business from sport if you think about how we prepare or train, how we get ourselves into the right position, how we go into that match play environment and how we reflect afterwards. So there are so many things, I think to learn from the world of sport. And I don't think I'm naturally gifted or naturally talented in any particular area, but I have a real determination to work hard. Big, high work ethic. Got that from my parents. I would say some stoicism in there as well. I think it's probably a bit about being a Northerner, but I just think the fabric of who I am, I've appreciated. I'm not the most gifted or talented person in the world, but make up for that with determination, desire and hard work.

And one of those phenomenal things that you've done in. I mean, it's an amazing cv. When you look at all of the different sporting, I mean, the number of events that you must have seen over the years must be absolutely phenomenal. But one of the key ones, I would assume maybe the top of the cv, I don't know, it was bringing the Rugby League World cup together and putting three events into one. So for those people that don't know really what happened there, describe what you had to do, why you felt that you needed to change it, and what was the result of that change.

First of all, it's my sport and so what a privilege to be able to do something really special. I worked on the River League World cup in 2013. I was the operations director and that was an amazing tournament work with Sally Bolton, who was the CEO. Sally is currently chief insecure of the All England Club, Wimbledon. And we just had a really small budget, a really small team and we overachieved. We outperformed every single target it and that was great. And we reflected and said, well, if we had the opportunity to do it again, we wanted to do it in a bigger, bolder, more ambitious way. And the opportunity arose not, not too far from that in 2015, where we had a conversation with the UK government about delivering a tournament that had equality at its heart and also delivered a significant Social impact program, a transformative social impact program, but that was a long way away from the tournament. So the tournament was due to be held in 2021, so six, six years out, the conversation, and it was largely about a political agenda as well, about the northern powerhouse, as was David Cameron was the Prime Minister, George Osborne the Chancellor. And we had this slightly weird conversation about rugby league being born in the north, sport of the north, and an opportunity to stage a global tournament that celebrated that, but also delivered more than the sum of the parts. So forward through. Obviously the spoiler alert is it didn't get delivered in 2021, it got delivered in 2022, which is a completely different story in itself. But it was just, what, what a privilege, what an opportunity to be really pro sports, standing tall, men, women and wheelchair athletes on the same platform, treated with equality and to deliver a social impact programme that really did make a difference to the lives of people in really challenged communities. And yeah, so much to be proud of. And to this day, I reflect back in 2015 of some of the bumps in the road. We thought that the EU referendum, we submitted our bid the day before the EU referendum, David Cameron and George Osborne as our bid sponsors. We thought that, that, that would be the, the most difficult thing we had to contend with. Needless to say, the next day after the bid was submitted, neither Debbie Cameron or Josh Osborne were no longer in power. They, they resigned when the referendum didn't go the way it went. And Brexit was the sort of thing that we thought, gosh, that's going to be the biggest challenge. But little did we know what Charlie, what was ahead in terms of having to postpone the tournament?

Amazing. Amazing. And yes. So describe what that was like. What was it like negotiating all of those different things for the tournament? And what did you, you know, reflecting back, what, what did you. What was the greatest achievement?

I think the greatest achievement was, was the commitment to social impact, it being and deeply embedded within the DNA of the event. It had a purpose. It was. We always thought about it being a tournament with a purpose. I think the achievements are just, just getting the thing delivered after postponement was. Yeah, it certainly took a lot of emotion, a lot of energy and a lot of back to the word of deter after we had to postpone it. But in 2015 we were full of ideas and we hadn't probably quite figured out once we convinced UK government to give us quite a big sum of money, how we'd actually do it. So we went in, very, very brave and said we would deliver 32 teams, 21 venues, every game live on the BBC, all the things that we wanted to achieve, but we hadn't probably quite worked out how we were going to do that. But we had, we had a purpose, we had a vision, we had a brilliant board. The values were embedded within the decision making. I learned a lot about over that period and of course, having to postpone the tournament. Having worked for almost six years to get the tournament into the position in less than 100 days away from the start, having to let it all crumble around, around us and reset and go again.

I think it's amazing to hear as well that you bringing this, the social impact program together, but also the men, women, powers, all together in one place is just amazing. Moving on to British cycling, how did that experience impact what you brought to British cycling?

Yeah, I learned a lot about myself. I mean, the opportunity at British cycling, it was just, it was so special. It's a sport I love, I've always loved regard myself as a Tour de France super fan. It was also a role that had an enormous amount of challenge. I think I'm at my best and thrive where there is a challenge. I've not been disappointed with the lack of challenge, it's fair to say. But, yeah, I guess the difference was I was delivering an event that had a start, a middle and an end, whereas British cycling, hopefully, fingers crossed, we'll be here in perpetuity. So it's a slightly different rhythm, although we now have our own commercial subsidiary that also delivers events and a social impact program. So there are some similarities. But I think for me, I joined an organization two years ago that has had some challenges, well documented in the public domain, whether it's a brand and reputation or financial. I joined an organization, I would say, that had lost its confidence and it's been amazing to be on a journey for two years that I've. But we're just a brilliant team and we've really approached some of the challenges head on. I dare say there will be more, but having a sport where 27 million people have got on a bike in the last 12 months in the UK, which is an astonishing figure, a third of the UK population, and for us to be able to try and reach those 27 million people more, give people great experiences, get people active, moving and healthy, do that whilst also performing at the elite level and winning medals in Olympic Paralympic Games and everything in between is again, what an absolute privilege. It's, it's a tough role, but it's a very fulfilling role to be able to make a difference.

I mean, just listening again, doing, doing the research for, to speak to you today, it sounds like, like you've made so much impact. You mentioned the, the challenges. What do you think has been the biggest challenge? Like when you first joined British Cycling, you were faced with lots of different challenges and, and made lots of changes. What, what do you think has been, been the biggest, I guess perceived challenge when you went in. But what was the actual biggest challenge, do you think?

I think I remember sitting down as part of the recruitment process, which was quite extensive, and meeting with the chairman and the chairman was brilliant and just said, look, I'm going to tell you how it is. And I guess that was the bit of maybe even trying to scare me off. And when he told me how it was and there was no surprise when I walked into the organization and what I encountered and you know, thank you for your praise, but I'm just a bus driver and it's the team that I've got around that have made the difference. And we're in a position two years on, probably only halfway of where I would like the organization to be, but we're in an improved financial position. I would like to say our brand and reputation has improved, our culture certainly has improved and we measure that on a regular basis. We've got new commercial partners, but I think also the organization's got its confidence back in a few weeks ago we published a new strategy that's really different. I'm really proud of all of those things. And despite that, we live in a really challenging environment. I talk a lot about Vuca volatility, uncertainty, complexity and ambiguity. And I think we can tick every one of those boxes. But that's what we're all living, isn't it? We live in an environment where every day when we wake up and consume the news, something new is coming at us. And that's just. We've got to accept that you can either feel sorry for yourselves or you can get on and do something about it. And I'd like to say we fall in the, in the latter where we've had our own share of adversity, but we've navigated it it as best we can. So far.

You talk there about culture and we've talked to lots of different athletes and business professionals about culture. How do you measure that? Because you said you made changes in your measuring. How would you measure that in the world of British cycling?

Yeah, we use one of the many tools that are available. We use the happiness index. It was Important for me that we set a benchmark when I came into the organization and we measured that again at points. And I'm pleased to say that the indicators are, are positive. What it's given us also then is feedback of the areas that we still need to work on. So a big conversation at the moment about mental wellbeing, about leadership development, and, and, and I'm pleased with that because they are things I think we can do better on and they're really proactive areas rather than maybe some of the hygiene factors that I encountered when I came into being. But yeah, I think culture leadership to me is how you make people feel. And I think then if you can deeply embed a sense of collective responsibility. I would say my contract with people is based on tlc. Not tender loving care, but trust, loyalty, and then that C. You can have collectivity, curiosity or challenge. And I think if you can get the blend of that high level of trust, loyalty, not just the organization, but to each other, and then we can, we can cheat a little bit with the Cs. But I love people that are curious. I love people that challenge me and I love the sense of collective responsibility. I think it's super, super powerful. I'm a big fan of Jim Collins from Good to Great. And I use the analogy of the flywheel a lot. And I think when I joined the organization, the flywheel had definitely got stuck and we've just gradually kept going and it's now getting its own momentum and that feels, it feels good. You know, you can measure it using whatever tool, but also if it feels good, that's. It's uplifting. And if people have a smile on the face, feel happy, healthy and supported. And it's the same for our GB cycling team. We've got 140 riders on program, We've got an amazing performance director, we've got an amazing team. And I remember talking about Paris and creating like the perfect environment. The perfect environment is based on culture. And if then the athletes are happy and healthy and they feel supported, guess what? They go out and they perform at the best. And that's exactly what happened in the Olympic and Paralympic Games in Paris.

I love your idea of this soft tlc, but also swapping out the sea for whatever you want. I think in the end was making my mind question a little bit. Yeah. And I think, you know, having it. Having a measure that you have got this benchmark in terms of culture and happiness. But I think you're absolutely right in terms of it's something that you, you Feel, people are breathing it, people are living it, you know, to feel that across all your athletes and members of the team as well. You've spoken a number of times actually when, just at the beginning, when you were talking at the start about the social impact program. You mentioned it actually in rugby, but you also mentioned it briefly in terms of cycling. Tell us a little bit about what number one, I guess what social impact means in, in sport and in cycling and what you're, what you're trying to, to achieve through that.

Yeah, I mean social impact to me some people get confused with participation. So it's all in whatever sport just getting more people playing the game, getting more members, etc, and that's a great, I think that's a great output of the social impact program. But social impact to me it is a permanent positive change to someone's life. And I guess the hard thing going back, back to the Rugby League World cup, we had a really clear vision of what we wanted to achieve. And it's about experiences. And when we sat down with lots of very smart people, we asked the question about how we would measure that. And I've always wanted to measure in a qualitative way. And we had lots of very smart people scratching their heads, say well we're not sure you can do that. You, you need to get like quantitative numbers. And we found a way through a theory of change model and we've carried that forward into British cycling. But it's more outcome driven rather than the, the numbers. So 27 million people have ridden a bike. I'd like to think if we can convince those to be regular riders, people will be healthier, make a contribution to the National Health Service, we'd maybe make the nation a bit more productive and contribute to a growth agenda. That's a very lofty ambition. But we might just change one person's life and that for me is more than good enough. And I have a particular personal passion around social mobility. I think the fact of where you are born has such a defin outcome on your life. So whether it's education, employment, health opportunity and I just think the sport has a such a massive part that plays in people's lives that can make a difference. So we're doing a number of different things at British cycling, but one is working with people in social care. And if you think about people in social car who just don't have the same level of opportunities as many other people in society, and this is 2025 in a developed nation and many people in social care have a car Rep who are their only friend. The carer is being paid to be someone's friend and I just find that quite astonishing. So, so I think whether it's cycling, rub league, but sport in general, I think we can use that as a force for the good. I think sport is a great way of bringing people together, having great experiences, sharing memories, also getting people moving. And our social impact program at British Cycling we have four outcomes. Social justice is the first one, social mobility the second one, social cohesion the third one and tackling inactivity the fourth. And we've gone through a theory of change. One said, well, they're the outcomes. Great. What might we put together a program to look at that. And using things like our tools of Britain on the road, we reach hundreds of thousands of people and create visibility. The Tour de France coming back to uk, which is amazing news. Riders that we have in the program or simply just those people that want to get out for positive mental well being and get some exercise in the fresh air. So, yeah, hugely exciting, really passionate about our social impact program. And if you can start to see it change people, people's lives for the positive, then yeah, we're, we're all in.

I think this is, I think this is absolutely brilliant. Firstly, I heard you say that 20 million figure in one of the interviews I was listening to you on. It's an astonishing figure, isn't it? I mean, it's incredible to think that like that many people, you know, a third of the people in the UK got on a bike in the last year. That is phenomenal. And it does mean that there is this huge opportunity. I know, I know cycling has made my life immeasurably better because, you know, it's whether it's a social thing, whether it's getting outside, whether it's the fitness, whether it's the goals, all of this stuff is so brilliant. And, and I suppose there's, there is, there's so much scope for uplifting the people that do it a lot within that 27 million, isn't there? What are your thoughts on how you do that and where do you do that? Like, I think people understand what British cycling's role is, is for those people that are racing in Paris. But where does British cycling kind of, what's its scope for the whole of the community?

Yeah, it's a really good question, Charlie. And I think, and I'm sure my board directors and my team wouldn't mind me saying, I think probably we'd lost our way in that definition of what exactly we stood for. So we've always been incredibly strong from a performance team. I mean, our medal tally at both Olympics and Paralympics is astonishing. And that's to be celebrated. And we have the competition pathway that features through into that. But I think we had lost our way. And my definition now in our new strategy, definition, just get more people on a bike and give them great experiences. And if you work through the multiple ways of which you can ride a bike, first of all, it's a life skill. You know, many of us are taught at school used to be cycling proficiency when I was at school. It's no bikeability, but you have that, that very first step or you might be with the stabilizers, with your mum and dad, with your family, you know, all of that. Then it's about freedom and it's about adventure, it's about liberation. It is also a fun of travel. And we see more people now cycling to work. I think, I think I'm right in saying that the cycle to work scheme is the biggest way that anyone know buys a bike. It's overtaken people just go into the shop and purchasing a bike. So it shows that there has been a societal change. We see no more dedicated cycle routes being developed. You know, you look at London now compared to London five, 10 years ago, it's, it's radically different and lots of towns and cities are going through that. The reality for British cycling is that we, we reach about a million million of the 27 million. So whether it's our members, people have come to our events, had experiences. So we have data of about a million. We'd love to have more data, we'd love to understand people's motivation and we'd love to serve them better offers. But for us it's just throwing our arms wide open. And if you ride an E bike, if you ride at home, on your Strava or whatever you choose, if you are out with your family the weekend or you are riding competitive athlete, we just want to warmly embrace all of that. And you know, there is a big conversation about safety. We've seen an exponential growth of people riding off road. I think some of that more is a lifestyle offer. The types of bikes you can buy now, gravel is enormous. But for us, more people on a bike, great experiences and hopefully we can start to engage a bit more and have better conversations.

You touch on safety there, which is obviously, you know, a key factor and probably the single thing that puts more people off cycling more than anything else. Does British cycling have scope to influence the government on because I would agree. 25 years ago When I lived in London, there's no way I would have cycled to work. Now it's significantly better. Having been cycling in Cornwall last week, it's probably a slightly different conversation, but equally the cycling is amazing. It's an amazing part of the world to be cycling. What can British cycling do to make it, it safer?

What's its role to be part of the conversation? Charlie? So I don't think singularly we are able to influence on our own, I think as a group. So we, we are part of sort of active groups called the Walking and Cycling alliance with many other people who work mainly in a charitable space and, and we're part of that conversation. So making experiences safer, developing more infrastructure and, and reacting. We talked a bit early, didn't we, about the environment in which we live in is constantly changing and becoming challenging. I, I think that's the same from, from a societal perspective. But going to cycle in Cornwall, getting some pressure, feeling good, positive mental well being. I mean there are reasons enough to get on your bike.

I think we've definitely seen, I think sort of post Covid, like there's been an explosion, hasn't there, of. Well, both running actually. So the ultra marathon scene has sort of taken off and certainly cycling, like, I don't know if there's any, if you've got any stats on how many people took up cycling and continued. I don't know know. Do you have those kind of stats?

Yeah, I mean certainly there was, there was the explosion in participation during the pandemic. The curve then went down slightly and we, we've seen, we do a quarterly market tracker. We've seen the 26, 27 million number be pretty stable and clearly there are challenges for the industry. The, the industry is probably worth a little less overall. It was a 2 billion pound industry in the UK. It's probably somewhere like 1.2, 1.5 billion pound industry. And, and that's, that's slowed down since the pandemic. But so we just want here as positive advocates of better mental well being, better physical well being and if we can do that scale, genuinely at scale, I think we are contributing to the nation. You know, that's not British cycling. That's just everyone that gets on a bike and is a bit healthier, a bit more productive and hopefully contributes to growth of the nation.

Absolutely. And actually with a clinical background, so as a dietitian, like seeing that impact from a medical perspective as well, you know, the rates of sort of health, obesity, like getting as many people out to move, I always say, rather than exercise. But mostly, as you're saying, just get out there and enjoy it. Whatever kind of scope that sort of takes. I've heard you speak quite a bit in a few other podcasts you've been on about values and you've mentioned it today, both about sort of the values that you have in British cycling, but also the purpose in sport. Is there a time that you can think of where, where as a leader, you've had to make, like, a really big decision, a really tough decision, and you've had to be really sort of guided by the values that you have?

Yeah. I would give you the example of the Rugby League World cup, the probably toughest professional decision in my career. When we were faced with three options. One was to postpone our tournament for 12 months. One was to cancel our tournament and walk away. And this is after six years worth of hard work, a fair slug of public investment. Or the third option was, was to carry on. And I remember vividly what led to that, and that was the withdrawal of a couple of the nations that had players across most of the 21 competing nations. And I remember we had a straw poll in the morning of a board. So we had nine directors and there were three options. And we went round myself in the chair, and we had four directors who wanted to. To cancel and walk away. We had four directors who wanted to postpone for 12 months and carry on. And it quickly dawned on my chair that he had the casting vod, which wasn't the best position to be in. But we worked throughout the day and my show, Chris Brindley, who's a wonderful human being, and at the start of the board meeting, he reminded all of our directors. We were going to make a decision based on our values. And it was just astonishing. That was a manifestation of living and breathing your values. And people were tired, emotional, really angry about the situation and what had happened. And yet Chris very calmly reminded the board, and we went round and guess what it was 9 nil. That we postponed and carried on for another 12 months. And that for me was values in action. We were making decisions, or we could have made decisions. As executives sat 12,000 miles away from the athletes that were affected, many of them afterwards, some of the women from a couple of the nations talked about family planning and how their whole life centered on going to the tournament. I mean, it was just incredible. But it was the values that got us through. The sense of purpose, sense of collectivity, but the values. And that was superb. Church Ship from Chris. But also at a time people were, people were pretty battered and bruised by what had happened in the preceding winter.

If you can tell us what were those kind of, I guess, key values that that decision was then made on.

First one was authenticity. And what Chris was advocating is that we've been on a journey so far. We've been six years together as a board. He wanted us to be authentic. The second value was inclusivity. We were standing for athletes hope and dreams across three different competitions and certainly in the wheelchair tournament the first time Everett had been part of this whole festival. Some people hadn't traveled away from home before. I mean, it was quite astonishing the circumstances that people were facing. And the third value was about being world class, you know, behaving in a world class way. So, you know, drawing the values out on the board, reminding ourselves of our purpose and then having the conversation and then coming back to we need to make a decision and we're going to make it based on our values.

I think that's great to be able to like bring that back to those true values and be able to make a huge decision on that. How do you in British cycling make sure that the values that you have kind of, you know, living, breathing people are being authentic to it and true to it, rather than it just be, you know, a written document or somewhere?

No, it's a great question. And we, we've actually done a lot physically recently. So we've had our office, I wouldn't say redecorated, but we've got big pillars in the office and on each of the pillars it has one of our values. So it is a constant reminder. But the VAT the values had already been. We've gone through a big consultation exercise internally. Before I joined the organization, the bit for me that was missing was a behavior framework. And we have put that into being in the behavior framework has been really helpful in terms of helping people understand what each of the values means. But it also allows people to challenge poor behavior and they've got something then to some direction to go in. The big bit for us is our purpose. So we have a purpose which is to bring the drive cycling to everyone. Probably goes back to some of yours and Charlie's previous questions and that's the reason we get her to bed in the morning wanting and like that constant reminder. And I don't think people need reminding anymore. But when we decided that we would have the new purpose probably about 18 months ago, I said, you know, that's our elder days pitch that you know, you've got 10 seconds. We want to bring the drive cycling to everyone. And that really has now been inbuilt. And I hear people repeating it back. I hear people repeating our values back here, some people repeating some of what I've said before back. And that just. It just shows to me that it has been deeply embedded and we are acting in line with our purpose and our values.

I think that's brilliant. And I've. I've certainly seen that in business, and I think so I often use the term moonshot in that. That's what you're. You know, if everyone. If you've got a list of 10 big goals, nobody that is employed in the company can list those 10 goals. If you've got one single thing that is, you know, one sentence, one framework, I think that's really, really powerful. I think. I think it really pulls people forward. And ultimately it's their why isn't it? You know, and he knows his why. He can withstand any. How can they?

Yeah, yeah. And it is powerful. And. And this is that sense of, yes, we can measure it, go back to culture surveys and other things, but if you can just see people pulling together and as you. You sort of alluded to earlier, Charlie, we're quite a. We've got a broad number of different things that we deliver. So we've got a performance program. I. I think it's like having a Premier League football team. You know, the way that the athletes are looked after, the way they train, the way we use technology is quite astonishing. So we've got. Got that one end of the spectrum, but at the other end of the spectrum, we just want to get people on a bike, and then we've got everything in between. So if you've got something that can. Everyone can coalesce around in the organization, whether it's you're working with one of our Olympians or Paralympians, or you're just gonna try and get children on a bike. The joy of cycling is pretty powerful, and we found it really commercially compelling. We've onboarded a couple of new commercial partners, and it has that ubiquity to it, which probably celebrates many, many people, many of the population getting on a bike.

If you clearly know why you're doing something, it brings other people on board. Like the team are on board, clients are on, you know, customers are on board. It works in all ways, doesn't it? I've heard you in other conversations, talk about growth, mindset. And one of the things. So as I mentioned to you, when we, when we spoke. My 16 year old daughter is currently going through the to. She's done the talent development centers, she's just doing the regional versions. So she's kind of working her way up through the cycling world, which is a whole new landscape for me to understand. But, but what's been really interesting is several people within British cycling along that journey have said we're less interested about her physiology at the moment, more interested about the psychology we want, I think it's a Sir Clive Woodward term. We want sponges, not rocks. So I'd love to know what your thoughts are on the growth mindset or rocks versus sponges in both the sporting world and also in the business world. And how do you find the sponges?

Oh gosh, great question, Charlie. I think fundamentally it comes down to resilience and building resilience, whether it's on the field of play or whether it's in the organization, in the boardroom. The growth mindset piece I really identify with. So if I give you an example of our a new strategy, maybe six, nine, 12 months ago, we asked our organization to do three things. One was have a growth mindset. Secondly was to adopt an entrepreneurial spirit. And the third was to feel liberated and it was to try and remove the barriers. I think as human beings we always see the problem and not the solution first. So clear all those away and we're in receipt of a significant amount of public money. But it doesn't mean say we have have to behave necessarily with a public sector mindset. So it was to try and get that blend of growth mindset, field liberated and entrepreneurial. And I see that, I know performance space. I mean the way we look at winning and winning well. So that might be anything from a skin suit development to the bike frame to the wind tunnel that we use. And these are, if you're in a sprint competition on the track, I mean these are, are like such fine margins and that I think manifest it then into the athletes with the resilience that they need to keep going. I mean cycling, like many sports, you can fall off your bike, it's quite easy to fall off your bike. And you see our athletes get back on the bike and go again. And it's that toughness, it's that steely determination. And also from a performance perspective, the Olympics and Paralympics are the pinnacle for most of our riders on program that that's once every four years. That's a long time to wait. And of course there are many other competitions in between. But if that that is the one thing that you are aiming for as an individual. I think you've got to have a really strong mindset and we've seen people succeed. I think probably Laura Kenny was the last of the golden generation on our program and now we've got a new generation of young people, but a new generation of young people who probably have a different mindset, maybe the TikTok generation and have it had already in their young lives different. So, so that's quite interesting from a psychological perspective of, of, of having to adapt different skill sets. And that again, I think can relate whether it's on the field of play with those athletes or whether it's managing people with different expectations who are now coming into employment.

And is there any advice that you would give to parents that are trying to nurture this growth mindset based on everything that you've learned about it?

I think. Well, I would parents of a 15 year old who plays sports and just try and encourage positivity not being, I always say be as kind to yourself as you would be to others and I think that's a good skill to try and master. Building resilience. Definitely. We all know in our life, whether it's doing what we love or you know, at work, we're going to encounter some difficult situations and you've got to be resilient. I think also being pragmatic, I love pragmatism and you've just got to find a way through. Sometimes life's tough and sometimes you've got to shrug your shoulders and find, find a way through it. But I, I think also just appreciating that probably younger people now have had different experiences and you know, being a child during the pandemic, gosh, that's, you know, everyone's doing it tough. So just just being a bit kinder is probably not a bad thing.

Overall, I love that about, you know, learning to be kind to yourself and being able to, able to, you know, get back out there and get back on with things as well. What, how do you approach. It just made me think sort of how do you approach. I'm not even going to use the word failure actually, but not necessarily winning that. You know, that not as expected in those younger athletes. How do you approach that, you know, as within British cycling with young athletes?

Well, I think the program can be ruthless. I mean the way we select athletes, we're allowed a certain number on the program and that is constantly reviewed and some people might push back slightly against that. But that, that's, that's performances in it. And we see that manifest in multiple different sports. I think, you know, example I would give at the Olympic Games was Beth Shriver, our BMX rider who won gold in the previous games. And Beth won every single one of her heats. She was absolutely magnificent. Went through the semi finals unbeaten and came to the final and, and didn't succeed. And you saw the interviews afterwards with Beth and you saw that innate mental resilience and she said, I've had a great experience, I've given, I've got. BMX racing is so cruel. If you're not out the start gate at the front, you're going to struggle to catch up. And I just think it's that I've got another opportunity, I'm going to go again and I am going to be kind to myself and develop that resilience. And yeah, we see people win, people not succeed. But pretty much every time people get back, dust themselves down, get back on the bike and go again.

And that's not just a phrase, is it? Dusting yourself off and getting back on again either. I remember actually, I remember her being interviewed and you know, to hear her speak like that after, you know, this four year cycle and as you say, sort of building up to it. Yeah, it's amazing to hear athletes speaking that way.

Two really good examples, I mean, Matt Cavendish, whilst we're talking of cycling, Matt Cavanish, 35 stage wins at Tour de France and you know, his career, just incredible. And everyone had written him off and then he got back on and then he was so close and then he got knocked mean. That is a manifestation of resilience. And Dame Sarah's story, you know, most celebrated Paralympian and Sarah, part of our program, you know, you just look at her. So there are many examples of role models and I think we all need role models in working life and we're fortunate that we've got many of those people.

Absolutely, yeah. Really important, I guess, really important for those developing athletes as well, to have those both within sport but also outside of sport as well. Well, looking back at Paris Olympics, I was lucky enough to be there actually and watch a few, a few of these cycling races alongside triathlon, of course. What's your honest reflection on how Paris Olympics worked out for you as a, you know, as a cycling team there? And how would you, how do you sort of balance, you know, celebrating those athletes that have done well, but also that pressure to then get on and do even better next time.

Yeah, I reflect very proudly on Paris, both from Olympic and Paralympic perspective 33, three medals in total achieved our targets. We also left some medals out there such as the nature of sports. I was very went to the triathlon model. That was a fantastic set of races in the triathlon. But it was great being in Paris. And it probably goes back to my point earlier about creating a culture, creating that team camp environment where people felt supported and people performed. And we saw the likes of Emma Finucan, 21 years old at the time, her first games and she came away with three medals including one of those gold. We saw the performance by Tom Pidcock in, in the mountain bike. And then you look at the Paralympics, you look at the performance of Kadeena Cox. Our absolutely red hot favorite for her event came at the blocks. She fell off, she was absolutely distraught. And then she came back in the team sprint and the team took gold. So there are lots and lots of things to be proud of. I think the key thing for me is it was a young team. We had lots of fourths and fifth places which we're really encouraged by. But we think we met lower expectations. We created some memories, we gave some people some incredible, incredible life experiences. And overall I think Paris just was an astonishingly successful Olympic and Paralympic games. I think the nation really stood up and yeah, I'm sure we all have so many memories from it.

Certainly amazing to, to watch and be there as well. That atmosphere was just, was just unreal. And when you're, you know, when your time at British cycling comes to an end, whenever that might be, what would you, what would you say, you know, success for you, having been the CEO there, what would that look like? So leaving that position, what would success have been for you?

I think the most simplistic form to have made a difference and to leave the organization in a better place than when I joined it. Obviously lots of people will have the view about what success means, but on some of the metrics my three objectives coming in were to create some efficiencies was number one. Second was to grow revenue. And the third thing was to invest into growth is to make sure that what we're doing know is also looking to the future. I think we went well on with that program and the financial results and all the different metrics. People can have a look at the balance scorecard and judge for themselves. But I think the softer piece is to have built confidence, to have developed some leaders in the organization. I big fan of succession planning. You know, I'd love to think there's loads of people in the organization that want my job and loads of people in the organization that want my executive team's job. I think that's a really healthy culture. Culture. But yeah, it won't be measured in gold medals and what happens on the field of play. It would be measured in the business being in a. Being a better place in a really tough environment. And whenever people choose that, that's the time that that ends. You know, hopefully I can reflect proudly on my contribution and what I've done.

You mentioned that you, you know, you're clearly a big cycling fan and you obviously want to have a big impact in the world of cycling. What do you think the impact of bringing, bringing the, you know, you mentioned that you're a super fan of the Tour de France. What do you think the impact on British cycling will be of having the Grand Depart here in, in 2027?

I think it's enormous, Charlie. I think it's a really seminal moment for the organization. I was fortunate enough to be involved in the 2014 Grand Depart in Yorkshire. The slightly curious title of Director of Readiness. I'm not sure we were ever ready, but the race came and was successful and that was a project to me. It was phenomenally successful. The sun shone in Yorkshire. I mean, of people came to the side of the road. I mean, it was, it was quite incredible. But I mean, some of that, some of it was obviously planned and some of it was sort of organically happened. What we didn't have in 2014 was a long leading time. What we have now, we have more than two years. We have the ability to reach England, Wales and Scotland. We have six stages, three in the men's, three in the women's. It feels like a moment like never before. And it will be the biggest free sports event ever to come to the UK ever. So, you know, it is a historic moment. And for us, hopefully, the. The tide will rise and all boats will rise from the staging of it. But British cycling needs to be proactive and really see this as a really seminal moment. And certainly for my part, I will definitely play that role.

I'm really excited about it. I'm, yeah, very, very excited about it. But what, what do you think the impact of kind of the, the dynamics of TV coverage is going to. To make on the world of cycling? And with that, you know, with what I mean by that is, you know, the, the future loss of Tour de France from mainstream tv, but also, like, I mean, Unchained has obviously had amazing impact on viewing figures, but now we are apparently not going to get any more unchained which is I'm very disappointed about. So, you know, where does TV coverage fit in all of this and how do you think it could be better?

It's significant, isn't it? I mean, there's a big debate going on in the sport at the moment. Some of the rights being moved from free to behind a payw. We obviously would campaign and advocate for as many people to see the sport as possible. There's been a big transition over the last probably 10 years of young British talent, both men and women, who we used to see on British roads. Now we're riding on the continent and being incredibly successful in more British riders than ever before, earning their living on the continent. What that means is we don't get to see them very often on British road. So events like Tour of Britain, Tour de France are opportunities to do that and we obviously want to it to be projected to the mass population. So I think media rights as a whole in sport, while that's a, that is a podcast, a subject all on its own, I think from a cycling perspective, you know, we're still hopeful that in 27 people will be able to consume and enjoy that free to our. That's not in our gift. But yeah, we'll definitely be part of the conversation and hopefully we, the geography will mean that people are not too far away to actually come and hopefully stand by the side of the road and see, see that moment. But yeah, we're super excited to play a role. Events create visibility and events bring people together. I think that's super special. You know, we can all go all the way back to talk about social impact, social cohesion in particular. I remember in 2014, one of the biggest projects was the knitted bunting and people were knitting yellow bunting and it was amazing because it brought people together, it was intergenerational. It was about celebrating civic pride, you know. Fantastic. So we, we'll be rolling out the knitted bunting project again when the Root is announced.

What do you think the, the thing will be then for the, the Grand Tour depart then? Do you think it, do you think there's going to be a new theme to it or.

I don't, I don't know. Maybe we should put it out on the podcast. If people got ideas, please do send them, send them in. We probably need something a bit more social media savvy, don't we? But I, I don't know. I just, just that special thing about bringing people together and the. I think the great thing about Tour de France, in my 30 years. I don't think I've ever been involved in a media launch. We did it a few weeks ago in Edinburgh. That's had such a positive sentiment and it transcended. It wasn't a cycling story, it wasn't a sports story, it was a new story. And, you know, even if you've got, like, cycling. Even if I bike or get on a bike, like, just. This is an opportunity to celebrate pride in place, to celebrate everything that's great about our nation. And I think that's really, really compelling. And yeah, I can't, can't wait.

And, and as part of that, will there be lots of, you know, you talked about sort of the social impact of this. Are they. Are there lots of events, Events that will be going on around this, you know, start as well?

Yeah, we. We hope so. So whether it's cultural heritage, just gratify a festival, carnival atmosphere, and also for the areas of the UK that we don't quite reach is. We want everyone to feel that they're involved, that this is. It's a very. It's a very democratic project, isn't it, that. That, you know, we're not asking people to pay and buy a ticket, so we want people to feel involved. It's, yeah, really special, special moment.

I mean, I think it's going to be absolutely incredible and very difficult to measure, isn't it, if you haven't got people paying for tickets, like, how do you measure how many people turn up and get involved in things as well?

Yeah.

I remember in 2014, quite surreal moment, I was in the Gold Command where the police put the helicopter up and looked over whole moss and there was a bit of a moment of, wow, we can't control people. You know, there's no crowd safety measures in place, but people were coming out in just thousands and thousands of people. And, yeah, just trying to. And then roughly calculate how many people that was. But the event impact will show incredible economic impact locally. But if we can do that and create a social impact as well through some storytelling and some great experiences, then that will be job done.

You've talked a lot about, and I've listened to you talk about kind of, you know, being this, you know, this entre entrepreneur within British cycling and this entrepreneurial thinking. How difficult is that in a. In a big kind of structure such as British cycling to be. Be and think in an entrepreneurial way?

I don't think it is difficult at all, Clara. I think to enact it, you've got to build trust, you've got to bring people with you. I think there are conversations I still have every day about, oh, gosh, that's quite bold and brave. But yeah, I think you can think entrepreneurially that there is a big desire to bring more commercial revenue to the organization. And as sponsorship changes, that doesn't necessarily mean it has to be sponsorship. There's multiple different ways of driving revenue. But yeah, that I, I'm not going to change who I am. Some people, I'm sure, will try and just slow me down a little bit. But if it's in the interest of the organization, if it's something that we can reach more people and if we can give people better experiences, then it's definitely worth pushing the envelope as far as we can.

And what lessons do you think from. From your role in British cycling? What do you think small businesses, like small business owners, could take away from what you've learned, learnt within British cycling?

I think have a purpose, I think have energy and determination, I think have a plan. But don't be afraid to change the plan as you navigate through. It's just like riding a bike, isn't it? Sometimes you want to go in a straight line and sometimes you have to navigate around and yeah, if you believe in something, then give it everything you've got. I would always say I do a lot of speaking mainly to undergraduates. People going through a degree is folly dreams and I truly believe that. And it's the same for me. You know, I had a dream of wanting to be a professional athlete. It didn't quite work out, but rather feel sorry for myself. I've. I've managed to curate a career of which I've been incredibly privileged and yeah, I wouldn't, wouldn't change any of it.

Brilliant. I think, I mean, that's just great advice. I think it's. And it's interesting that you've said, well, I wanted to be a professional rugby player. It didn't happen. But actually that desire to be a professional rugby player has led you on to, to this incredible career doing, working in and around the sports that you love. So it doesn't. Just because you follow a dream, it doesn't necessarily execute in the way that you want it or plan it to, but it, it does drive you towards something quite brilliant. So I think that's fantastic. You mentioned a particular book earlier on Jim Collins is Good to Great. I think it was the book you're referring to. And we always ask guests what books have helped them on their journey. So aside from Good to Great, what, what other books have you found yourself recommending to other people or do you think stand out in helping you?

Oh gosh, I wasn't not prepared for that question, Charlie. I think James Kerr Legacy is, is a great book. I, I, I just like Escapism for me I, I read lots of surreal fiction. Magnus Mills is my favorites and I love nothing more than I find it quite hard to relax. So I both cycle but also run. I find that's a great way of just helping with mental well being but I love looking forward to a holiday and just being able to read. But escapism for me, I will not be sat there with leadership learning and manuals and, and how to be a better person. If I go on holiday I would just read Escapist Surreal which I think.

Is also great advice for anyone like anyone that's checking their emails or, or reading the work stuff while on holiday is just. Yeah, I think that's, I think that's a great thing to do. I was just going to say you look like you're about to talk about the checking your emails bit.

No, no, I'm just about to, I read, I read a lot every day but I like to read short form content and just different things and, and this is a piece of advice that I do offer to people beginning their career is you've got contemporary and, and I love to explore and find things that really stimulate your thinking. So Whether it's a McKinsey piece, we've done some work with Deloitte who do some amazing stuff or just whether it's stuff that you stumble across and it's different. I, I also love to go and hear people speak. I went to an event last week, it was a really fascinating presentation from Channel 4 talking about the exponential growth in YouTube amongst Gen Z and that, that, that to me and I went away and then I read the report afterwards and it made me think so just stuff that stimulates you. It doesn't always have to be a particularly formal book but that contemporary knowledge, I think as the world changes you, you've got to, yeah just be curious and change.

And you mentioned James Kerr's Legacy, which is an excellent book, obviously all about the leadership but written sort of woven through how the all blacks approach leadership. Have you take, did you take any lessons from that that you found yourself applying to either your approach to leadership or how you run your teams?

I like the bit about stab me in the belly, stab me in the back and that's definitely something I've used quite frequently particularly in, in building Relationships. So people I've never met. When I remember coming into British cycling, we employ, I think about 275 on the. On the payroll. You know, we're. We're of a reasonable size. I hadn't met anyone, and I inherited an executive leadership team. Not met anyone until the first day when I. When I arrived. So building relationships and. But that. Just authenticity, no surprises. Yeah. And, yeah, I love that phrase. I know it's probably quite a challenging phrase, but when you read that chapter of how the All Blacks sort of decompress and how they feed back and that authenticity, always really respect. I use an example from the Rugby League World cup of Tonga playing Samoa and both nations from the Pacific having what many people would call a war dance. They would say a cultural celebration. And they told us before the game, it's a sign of weakness to go first. So we're not really going first. And we said, well, hang on a minute, someone's got to go up first. We were live on the BBC. It was the middle game of three. We're under some massive time pressures to get it kicked off on time. And all I could envisage was just this standoff between two groups of very big men. And the most amazing thing is they didn't need us to intervene. They worked it out themselves and they went together, so it wasn't a sign of weakness. And then they beat the living hell out of each other for 80 minutes. And then they came back at the end and they formed a circle in the center and they prayed together. And I use that example a lot in business of whether you get on, whether you like each other or not. You can always have really tough, challenging conversations, but always with respect. And I think if 34 big men for the Pacific can. Can do that, that shows absolute respect. And I think James Kerr really articulated some of that with respect. Your blocks.

I agree. I think that's a brilliant. And actually, I've referred to that book quite a lot, but I've not kind of gone back to that particular chapter of late. So I think that's really powerful. I thought perhaps you were going to pull out the no dickheads policy or the sweep the sheds, but. No, but it's a really, really great book. We have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest asks the next guest a question without knowing who that is going to be be. So our last guest was Alistair Brownlee, and I think Clare has got Alistair's question lined up.

Yep. So Alastair's question is, what does contentment mean?

To you, what does contentment mean to me? Gosh, gosh, that's a very thought provoking question, isn't it? I think contentment to me is self fulfillment, but a balance between like professional achievements and personal achievements. And I know we talk a lot about work life balance if, if such a thing exists. But I, you know, I keep reminding myself and I've said it to lots of other people, you know, family is the most important thing. We make ourselves busy and we come to work and we prepare and we do our best and we're very proud of our professional achievements. But you know, there, there is life. Life is more important than coming to work. So contentment to me would be, be feeling a sense of achievement, feeling proud of my family and feeling that when I eventually step off and finish my professional career that I've helped people along the way and made people feel good.

I think that's, that's brilliant. I think, I think the mistake, I think there is a, such a thing as work life balance. I think there's lots of people that say there's no such thing as work life balance because they don't have work life balance. But I think if you, you make a plan to put family first and have, you know, like, even so you can set, I would set goals in those different areas of life, not just in business as a lot of people would, would do, or in fitness. So I think that's absolutely brilliant. I think it's, I think it's really important. I suppose I just want to finish off with one last question which is if you were, if you were to go back and give your sort of 21 year old self some advice, what would it be?

It would be follow your dreams and try and navigate through life feeling proud of your achievements and doing your very best. And you know, I think that advice would still stand today. I've had an amazing career, absolutely amazing. 30 years, been incredibly privileged. But it has been that sense of following my dreams. And every now and again yet you get punched in the face, metaphorically. And it's hard. And I think the more you, I guess, climb the ladder, the more you get into more senior positions, the more it is lonely. And I often reflect that sometimes it feels pretty lonely being the leader. But I wouldn't change anything at all. And I've had such amazing opportunities. I remember one of my favorite opportunities. 2010, we organized the World Blind Football Championships at the Royal National College for the Blind in Hereford, which was qualified for London 2012. Met a most amazing man called Dave Clark. Dave is now chief executive of Paralympics gb. Dave was the England captain and I will remember that for the rest of my life. And that was an event. We had 900 spectators every day, so not the 74,000 that we had Old Trafford, but the skills. I, things I learned about myself, the skills. But like, that's amazing and I would love to live that all over again. So, yeah, follow your dreams would always be my advice.

Brilliant. John, it's been an absolute privilege chatting to you. I've really loved talking. I think what you're doing with British cycling is amazing. What you achieve with the, with the Rugby League World cup was also absolutely incredible, particularly given the, given the headwind of, well, multiple headwinds as you've described. I actually think, you know, British cycling as I'm seeing it firsthand with Bromin, is it like it seems to be, it's like digging into it. It seems to be this much bigger, wider, all encompassing organization than I'd appreciated and I think that it's so fantastic and it's such a great opportunity. I'm going to be cycling the length of the country in a few weeks time and, and I just think it's such an amazing way of seeing the. You never see that much of the. Well unless you're going to run lands. Enter John O Grapes, which is not many people are going to do. But equally, if you drive it, you ain't going to see it like you see it on a, from a bike. It is such a, it's such a wonderful thing. So, yeah, I think it's, I really look forward to what you're going to deliver in terms of the, the grand depart and I think everything that you're planning, particularly on the, on the social impact side of British cycling is fantastic. So a huge thank you for coming on the podcast and doing what you're doing.

Thanks so much. Thank you, Cloud. Thank you, Charlie. Thanks for the opportunity. It's been a really enjoyable conversation.

So what did you make of the interview with John?

So much. I always write, you know, lots of little notes, things I want to remember, things to talk about afterwards. And my page is full because there was so much there to take away. Do you know, one of the, I think one of the biggest things that came across to me is like as a leader, he comes across and he speaks about, about this, but his authenticity, he's, he is leading in a very authentic way and changing things as he goes and the way he talks about, you know, values and purpose and I know, you know, every leader, every business Right. Like everyone talks about values, culture, purpose. I think it can become something that in business everyone just has a page on. Nobody really lives by it. But the way that he was talking about it today, that, that to me is the biggest thing thing was this authenticity. And also I loved his like soft approaches and that's what he called it, didn't he? And was his tlc, Trust, loyalty and anything beginning with C essentially. So what my mind is thinking a little there, but. But it all goes apparently so.

Yeah, I agree. I thought it was. I thought he was brilliant in the sense of like when he described when they had to make a decision around the rugby World cup and they just came back to their values and they made the. And they went from 4v4 to a majority of 9 because you know, all of them all. And I know 4v4 doesn't add up to 9. That was with the chair. But that, that ability to make decisions through the value framework is really powerful. And I, and I love the way that he was measuring through the happiness index, the culture as well. I thought that was, that was really interesting. And I think there's definitely something the boy. More business. I think this, this is the greatest takeaway, takeaway I think that I took from it is that the more businesses can really not just define their values, their purpose, their, Their culture, but also live and breathe it and have everyone in the business really be able to say, well this is what it means to be a part of this organization. And this is the, you know, the, the framework around which I'm going to make any decision I have to make. It's really powerful because you know, the business, the people in the business know their why and then they're much more likely to go out and do something that's difficult. So I thought that was, I thought it was really good, really, really interesting. And yeah, and I thought a really fascinating story around the World cup as to how they use that in a practical way to make a very difficult decision. What else did you get from the conversation?

There was some, there were lots of it actually from my. For my area of work and work in mental health, but also work in like behavior change because that's a huge part of the way that I certainly help to make change or help change and transformation in clients. And he was talking about like he was using like the theory of change, different behavior change techniques within his like leadership as well. So that to me I just didn't ask many questions about it, but that was really fascinating. And I could see, I mean obviously you know, the business of endurance. As a podcast, you know, I could really see like this idea of some of those techniques that used and played out with professional athletes in terms of behavior change, the theory of change. And then he's using it within his leadership team with sport like that. To me I was like, wow, these are like the, you know, all these like foundational elements and pieces of the jigsaw and he's just like naturally very slotting, you know, slotting them into place. So. And I think, yeah, I think this just, just shows sort of the way that he has really shaped sort of British cycling as he's, you know, as he's been CEO. I also. What was your, your thoughts on the social impact side of British cycling and, and kind of what he's wanting to be able to do?

I think he's brilliant and, and it's not something. Until I started doing more digging on what British cycling were doing, it's not something that I ever really thought of, of linking them to. I mean, if I'm honest, until, until, well, Bromin started cycling on the track and also me joining my local cycling club, which I've only done relatively recently because I, I was a part more. My cycling gang weren't, wasn't a club. So until I started digging into that, I didn't really know a huge amount what about what they did outside of obviously, you know, the, the elite stuff. But I think it's brilliant and I think, and we didn't really talk about it in the. Their plan is to organize a whole lot more of the events to bring more and more people into cycling because it is such a fantastic way and particularly with, you know, the, the advent of E bikes, it is such a fantastic way of getting people out. You know, not everybody can go for a run, particularly you know, if you're older or you're, you've been injured or whatever. So it's such a brilliant way of getting exercise in a, in a low impact way. And so I, I think it's a, it's an amazing tool for change and I think, you know, you've only got to go to a city like Amsterdam and you go, this is a better city as long as you don't get hit by a bike. This is a better city because of the bikes as opposed to, because of, you know, being jam full of cars. So I think there's, there's so much great stuff there that, that they're doing and planning. What did you make of it?

I loved it. I loved all the different like elements and actually having, having done some work with some of the development teams. So I've had a couple of athletes on the development teams like your daughter. And so I actually had had kind of new, quite sort of the inner workings of all the different areas that they, that they have been in. And you know, I think there are so many levels, aren't there, in of terms, terms of where they're working from right up here in terms of, you know, feeding into that professional Olympic pathway and developing the really tiny tots as well. You have everything in there and keeping the older generation, let's not forget them because you know you've got, and I'm sure you've, you probably have them in your cycling club. You know, like the 80 year olds that are out on a bike still. I mean that is just amazing to keep everything from like, literally I can't even think of the age they start working with them at. But you know, if that's developing them on you know, a tiny little bike at the age of five or seven and then you've got eight year old cycling. I mean it just spans age, age groups, doesn't it? It's just, yeah, it's incredible.

And so that 27 million figure of the number of people in the UK that have got on a bike in the last year is just incredible, isn't it? I mean that was, it's way beyond. I mean and yeah, yeah, that blew my mind and I think it's amazing. And I, and the other thing I loved was when we were talking about books and he referred to, you know, two great books, Jim Kerr, James Kerr's Legacy. For anyone that wants to kind of learn more about leadership, then that is a brilliant book. And then Good to Great by Jim Collins is a, is a phenomenal book. But the, the, the Stab Me in the Belly not the back being his first sort of principle as to when he went into British cycling, had all of these employees that he'd never met before and he, he was like, right, you know, that's, that's, I want you to, you know, if something's not going right, tell me to my face, not behind my back. That's, that's a great way of leading a business. And yeah, I think, I think there's a lot to be learned from that. It's certainly gone up, hasn't it? Which certainly have been a growth business, isn't it? Jeez, yeah, yeah, yeah. Having been in, I said exactly that in London the weekend. Yeah. I'm not sure where, where the, where the line is drawn. But, yeah, no, brilliant. And I think, yeah, it's just really exciting in terms of what's going on with, you know, things like the grand depart and. And all the other stuff they've got planned. So, yeah, another amazing interview from an incredible man that has achieved a huge amount in the world of business, but the world of business in sport. So for everyone else, keep on training. Sat.