Winning Ironman Young with Phil Graves

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Athlon podcast finding out how ordinary people do extraordinary things.

I got to with about a quarter of a lap to go and my granddad had just passed away and I just thought of him and I was like, granddad, if you're up there, I just need a little push now. Just give me a little push, please. I was just dying on my ass.

That was Philip Graves and this episode is Winning Iron Man Young. In this episode of the Tribathlon podcast, I got the opportunity to chat to Phil Graves, who is the youngest ever winner of an Ironman. He's also come second in Ironman Wales, three years on the trot. He spent a lot of time training with the Brownlee brothers and has achieved just a huge amount in a relatively short and early few years in the triathlon world. So I wanted to get the opportunity to chat to Phil about, you know, how he stays motivated, what he notices amongst happy athletes, how he focuses on enjoying training, and also his slightly unique take on pre race nutrition. So genuinely lovely guy, really enjoyed chatting to him. Very funny chapter and I know that you'll enjoy listening to this interview as much as I enjoyed chatting to him. This podcast is brought to you by Vita Coco at the Incredible Coconut Water Drinks. Now, coconut water is so good for you. It's full of electrolytes, antioxidants, as well as loads of other potential health benefits. So it's a great drink to have during or after your training, but I particularly love their new pressed coconut product. It just tastes so coconutty and delicious and I have to say it's a far tastier drink than I'm used to drinking with coconut water. So go check out Vitacoco.com and you can buy them at Ambient Supplies, an online retailer. And if you hang on to the end of this podcast, I'll have a discount code for you too. This podcast is also brought to you by the Tribathlon app. Now, have you ever been away and thought, wouldn't it be cool to have somebody local that could show me the best cycling route, the best trail run, take me on the best wild swimming, and also show me where to stop for a coffee afterwards or during it? Because when you've got the local knowledge, you can actually find the best route, have the best experience and just enjoy the new surroundings better? So tribeathlon helps you find people to train with, whether that's your permanent training tribe or whether it's just a temporary group of people because you're visiting a new part of the world. So if you go to tribathlon.com download the app and you can help your build your tribe of training buddies and also to find your next event. So go to tribathlon.com download the app, build your tribe.

Welcome Phil, thank you very much for joining us to the Tribeathlon podcast. I'm really excited to learn more about you, kind of get under your skin, find out a bit about the secret behind the success. So huge thanks for joining us on the podcast. Do you want to kick things off by telling us a little bit about your story, a little bit about your kind of success so far? Tell people that don't know you from the triathlon and Ironman world a bit about your history and about what's got you to here.

Well, originally back in the day I was a swimmer and runner, if people would believe that. And literally Yorkshire Triathlon was quite a. It was basically when British triathlon had plenty of money, literally about 10, 15 years ago more. And they had loads of like winter camps for young athletes for the triathletes and they would hold like a selection day. And I went on one of these like triathlon taste Today selection days and Johnny was there in Alastair. This would be like when I was 13, you know, Johnny would have been 12 and Alistair would have been 14. And yeah, we did a little quaff on at the end of the day and then I got selected to go on like a number of camps over winter and that was my sort of entry into triathlon. It was a really, really strong setup with like Jack Maitland and Simon Ward from the triathlon coach. Really, really when triathlon was very, very different back then, we're talking 2002, 2003. So compared to now, it feels like a different sport now to what the sport that I first entered in at. So I sort of saved my time as like a youth and a junior and sort of, I really enjoyed cycling. So cycling became my strength and I got picked to go to world and European Under 23 Championships at ITU level as a domestique to help Richie Nicholls, which I really, really enjoyed. And then obviously been cycling having a strength that sort of of longer distance sort of naturally suited to me. So I kind of jumped in and sort of started doing half Ironman and Ironman. At 20 in my second year university where I really started to get some really good results. I won Ironman UK, Ironman 70.3 UK, which is then at Wimble Ball, went to Hawaii, led the race for a couple of hours there on the bike. Yes, that was kind of our really breakthrough year. And then I had another couple of years in America and then came back sort of to ITU to try and qualify for Rio for the Olympics. So I moved in with. I moved in with Johnny in Leeds and spent a good amount of time training in that setup over there and did a couple of World Series races, race World Series in Auckland and on the Gold Coast. And then kind of just when I got injured, I got Achilles tendinopathy. So I spent. I didn't make the team. It was Gordon Benson who made the team as the domestique and then sort of went back to Ironman and then was second at Wales for three years in a row. And yeah, sort of that's where that brings up to present day really fantastic.

Well, it's been an amazing journey so far. Tell me a little bit about. Because you were very young, am I right in saying you're still the youngest person to ever win an Ironman? Is that right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So what made you switch? Because people do tend to switch to. I mean, was it purely the fact that you were strong cycling? Was there any other thought process behind kind of getting into Iron man so early?

I think that being I was never a fast runner and I was always, well, a very, very poor runner for the standard that I needed to be. So when I was a kid I never really looked to the sort of ITU guys as sort of my role models because I knew that I'd never be able to succeed at that because I couldn't run a 30 minute 10k. So I naturally sort of looked towards the longer distance stuff, especially when I was a teenager. And there was some great icons of the sport like Faris el Saltan, Chris McCormack and especially Norman Stadler who was a big idol of mine. I had a poster of him, the wall next to my bed of him in Hawaii. And so they were the sort of icons that I wanted to be like. So that's what kind of led me to that very early entrance into sort of long distance triathlon. Obviously I started off with 1:70.3. Well, actually just half Ironman. And then I did my first 70.3 and won that at Wimble Ball. Then it was just a natural sort of progression. Oh well, you know, Ironman UK is only at Bolton. You know, I'm In York, it's 90 minutes away, it'd be rude not to. And yeah, I managed to kind of get lucky and was really fit and managed to win there. And so that, that sort of really opened a lot of doors and Sort of kick started things for me. It was kind of just a natural, a natural progression. You just like following the people who I really looked up to and who gave me inspiration and sort of just following the people that I wanted to be like. Really.

And what were your expectations going into that race? Because if that was your first Ironman to win it, it's extraordinarily impressive. But what were your expectations?

It's quite difficult to comprehend because back then Obviously that was 10 years ago now, the fields were a lot weaker than what they are now. It was just the same people at the races. You know. My only real competition there was Stephen Bayliss who I'd be in at half at 70.3 UK. So I knew I could beat him and there'd just be like maybe a couple of other, you know, foreign athletes which had come across which wouldn't really threaten, threaten like a podium or anything like that. So I just knew if I could like sort of replicate what I did at 70.3 UK I'd be fine. And I had the element of naivety on my side as well because I didn't know how much it was gonna hurt. The first Ironman is always the easiest because don't tell me that the first die man is always the easiest because you don't know what to expect. So. And because I was only 20, I just remember I just raced down Manuki, I set off the swim. I was swimming really well, so you can sort of discount the swim. But I just set off on the bike, just rode as hard as I could for 180k and then just ran as fast as I could for a marathon. And I managed to cross the line first. There was no real pacing involved nutrition wise. It was just sort of banging a few bars and gels and see how you go. You know we're. When you're 20 you can just stick whatever in your body and you know you'll go forwards. It's not like when you get a bit older and you know you've got. There's so many different other things to think about. You know, when you're just a kid you can just, just go for it and just get on with it. And you know, sometimes it goes well and sometimes it kind of goes to shit. But I was just really lucky that it kind of went well.

Let's be honest though, you're still relatively considered a kid in the Ironman world anyway, aren't you?

I'm only 31 now, but I feel like I've been round the block More than once.

But, I mean, that's got to put you in an amazing position because you've.

Still got probably, I don't know, maybe your best years ahead of you with.

Regards to Iron Man. But you've got all of this wealth of experience.

I mean, chatting to Laura Siddal on one of these previous podcasts.

She didn't get into Iron man until she was about, I think, 28, 29, so. So you must have quite a promising future ahead of you.

Yeah, yeah. Like I said, the sport's very different to what I first started out in. Now it's all very much. I guess it's kind of. I started the sport where it was very much like sort of your Matt. I think that's the same that Mark Cavendish is experiencing now. Like it was. You didn't. There was no real numbers. The sports science wasn't that much of a thing. You know, you just got on and you just did it. Whereas now everything is so science driven, numbers driven. You know, if you haven't spent like three hours in a wind tunnel, then you're at a massive disadvantage. And I guess for me, it's more about trying to move with the times because obviously I've got my own little comfort bubble, which. Which is what I've done for X number of years. But now all these new kids and, well, not even kids, but people 25 plus are coming through into Ironman and they're doing absolutely amazing performances. Even like Blumenfelt at 70.3 Bahrain last year I raced him there. And, you know, it's just getting harder and harder every single year. The standards just going up exponentially. So it's just really difficult to try and keep up with everyone at the moment.

And what is it you think that's driving that? Is it just the science or is it. Is there sport more commercial now?

You know, what's driving that?

I just think it's more popularity. I think that there's just so much more strength in depth where. So like, before you'd maybe have, like, few decent people, whereas now it's like you've got 30 people who, you know, could all come top five in a race turning up, whereas before there'd maybe be. There'd be just five people and they would come top five and that would be it. Yeah, I just think people. I think triathlon attracts, like a very, very sort of intense person because it is three sports and you've got to. It's not like you just can just go out for your bike for four hours a day, be A cyclist and come back and then have another life. You know, if you want to get to the top then you know you've got the three sports to train for and you need to be really, really intense and focused and yeah, there's so many people who now will just absolutely destroy themselves, you know, to get a podium at an Ironman race, it's difficult for me after doing it for like 10 plus years to still try and have that motivation to try and keep up with that because it is just so much more competitive now.

How do you kind of manage. How has your motivation worked over the years? Have you had times where you've lacked motivation and how do you get it back when you do?

Yeah, there's been times where I've really, really struggled, especially over sort of winter. I really, really can go like a couple of months with doing not a lot and then especially when there's no racing going on, I think racing for me is a big motivator. So even just the little time trials that I do. So when there's like no racing during winter, I find it very difficult week to week because there doesn't seem to be any. It must be very short term goal driven. This year I kind of really struggled because there's not been Ironman Wales there. And Ironman Wales is, you know, I have a real, real affinity and affection for that race and I absolutely love it. And that race makes me push harder than any other race on the circuit. And so with that at the end of the year it sort of gets my arse in gear and gets me sorted out really.

What is it about Ironman Wales that.

You love so much?

I keep hearing this about Iron Man Wales. It's just going higher and higher up my race list. But what is it about that particular race that you love more than any other?

I think it's just the atmosphere, the people there. The course does suit me because it's really, really tough and you know, the run's not super fast which helps me and I've got such good memories and it's just the atmosphere because I go to some races like Ironman, Arizona and a lot of the American races and they try their best but there's just no atmosphere. Like I'm in Arizona, there's like, it's like three 60k loops on the freeway, there's no spectators or anything. You just kind of feel like you're more on a conveyor belt. Just like, you know, you kind of just. The best way to put it would be, you know, you kind of Just in Morrisons, in your little one way system that you've got to abide by, you know, going around the supermarket to get to the checkouts to get you to pay for your food or essentially get your medal and then that's it, you know, whereas Ironman, Wales, there's thousands of people on the course, you know, it's very much like a Tour de France atmosphere and you do feel like a very, very like special athlete there. Whereas at other races you sort of just feel like you're just sort of on the, on the escalator, just going through the motions in the race really.

And coming back to. I mean, it does sound like an amazing race and I really am going to have to experience that. Coming back to your motivation, have you got any sort of you learned over the years, any techniques that can help you boost that motivation when there isn't a race in the winter, when there isn't a race that is kind of there to kick you in the backside?

Yeah, go somewhere sunny. Go somewhere sunny where it doesn't get dark at 3 o' clock in the afternoon.

And hence why people like Laura Siddall spend half their life in Spain and half their life in New Zealand. Because.

Yeah, yeah, I really enjoyed this winter because I was privileged enough to spend most of it in Dubai and like, I was really, really fit in sort of March time. So it was quite disappointing when everything got shut down and there was no races and stuff because I actually had the best winter that I'd had in about four years or more. So, yeah, I guess as athletes we're quite privileged and I guess one thing which helps me that I've been around so long is that I know so many people now and I've got such. I've made so many good friends that, you know, it does definitely open doors and makes life easier. So, yeah, this winter I had like the most amazing time in Dubai and obviously their season only starts in sort of, you know, October time because it's too hot the rest of the year and there's such a strong community of triathletes out there that it's just fantastic. You know, there's races going on every weekend, there's some decent little pocket money to pick up. You know, the races cost literally nothing to enter because it's all subsidised by the Sheikh and stuff because they're having a massive push to try and get the Emirati population fit to now. So, yeah, it was just fantastic being there over winter and there's just so much opportunity and I think again, compared to like 10 years ago now and when I first started, there is so much more opportunity to sort of travel and you know, all the, all the races in different places and it's very, very easy to get such a large network of friends. It does definitely help motivation when, you know, you can go to like club the Santa for a couple of weeks or something like that.

And so what are your plans? If you can make any plans at the moment with the whole lockdown nonsense that's been happening. Have you got any plans for this winter to set up next season?

Not really at the moment, to be honest, because everything is just so like fast moving and I find it really hard to get motivated when like goals could change and stuff could change and stuff. Like I like something fixed in stone that I can, that I can specifically train for. I know that the time trial, the time trial season's kind of more or less just started and that will hopefully extend into sort of October time. But I'm also quite looking and I'll just complain that it's really bad winter, but obviously spending last winter in Dubai, I'm kind of looking forward to this winter. I only came back on the 23rd of December last year, so I didn't feel like I had a Christmas or no Christmas running in December. I just miss little things like walking around the Christmas market in York and stuff like that. So I'm kind of trying to look for the positives which I guess the lockdown has sort of taught us to look for the positives in everything. So rather than say going like, oh no, it's going to get dark at 3 o'. Clock, I'm trying to look for the positives. I'm going to try and enjoy going around York when the Christmas lights are on, which we didn't get to do last year. I know my parents have booked a nice cottage in Keswick for like a week over New Year. So just try and have little things like that to look forward to.

Really fantastic. And with regards to all the races that you've done so far, is there one in particular that stands out as your greatest highlight?

Yeah, for sure. Well, for different reasons. There's two really. One which is like selfless and one which I really felt like I got the complete best out of myself and it was my all time best performance. The first one I'd say was when I did the European Games in Azerbaijan in Baku. It was like my first. Well, it was first and only time representing Team gb. It was like basically an Olympic warm up Race. You know, you went to the NEC and got all the Team GB kit and everything and there was me, Gordon Benson and Tom Bishop in the team and it was an absolutely amazing week. We stayed in, like, what would be Olympic Village, meeting all the other athletes and stuff. We were treated like Olymp and we raced as domestiques. So Gordon Benson was the protected athlete and it was basically mine and Tom's job to get him as much of a lead as possible on the bike so he could have an opportunity to win. And yeah, we had this plan that we'd sat down and worked out and it thankfully came off and he ended up winning. We managed to get him like a 1 min 40 lead off the bike on some of the best runners in the sport. Yeah, he managed to hold off and he won Team GB's first ever gold medal at European Games. So that was an absolutely fantastic achievement for the team. I really, really felt we did something special that day. And the second one. And again, this is not triathlon, it's actually a bike race. When I was, When I was 18, I did a round of the National Junior Road Race series, right? And my year for cycling was very, very strong. Like his juniors, there was Adam Blythe, Pete Kennock, Andy Fenn, loads of guys who went on to ride proto contracts for sky and everything. So I'd done this race the year before and got my head absolutely battered in and it was like 120k, you know, the best junior cyclists in the country. And I just done a training camp, a triathlon training camp in Portugal. And then I'd gone straight to do a four day race over Easter in Northumberland and then I had a couple of weeks to recover and then I turned up at this National Junior Series race and everybody else is riding for their teams, obviously and stuff. And I'm there on like my British triathlon bike, you know, like with baggy jersey, you know, proper triathlete. So I managed to get in on getting the break and There was about 10 of us and stuff and, you know, it was all going quite well. And then literally with about a lap and a half to go, the peloton were just about to catch us and I thought, right, this is it, now or never. So I just absolutely launched one with probably about. I can't even remember how far it was to go, probably a good sort of eight, nine miles to go. I just absolutely launched one off the front, like super time trial mode. And I got a gap and I can just remember going up this, there was a climb Every lap, and there was a feed zone on it, and my dad was there, and my dad was just, like, looking at me and he was going, what are you doing, son? What are you doing? I was thinking, trying to win the bloody race. That's what I'm trying to do. So I got to with about a quarter of a lap to go, and my granddad had just passed away, and I just thought of him and I was like, granddad, if you're up there, I just need a little push now. Just give me a little push, please. I was just dying on my ass and I managed to win. Adam Blythe was second, who obviously went on to have such a great pro career. And, you know, Pete Kenner and everybody else came behind, and I can just remember crossing the line first and just, like, pulling up afterwards. And it was the hardest I've ever, ever been in my entire life. I can remember to this day just leaning over and just gasping for air. I was just in such agony. But to win that race as, like, a triathlete against all the cyclists who go on to have such fantastic careers and stuff like that, that's my own personal highlight, just because of the way it all went. I hope I told that story well.

Fantastic. I think it's absolutely brilliant. And I think what I love about it is when you're in your dark place right at the end, it's your. Why, it's that thinking about your granddad that is probably the thing that kind of got you over the finish line.

Yeah.

And, yeah, absolutely.

Absolutely brilliant. And actually, I suppose that makes me. Did you ever think that you should have gone. Were you ever tempted to go down the. Purely down the cycling route as opposed to the triathlon route?

Yeah, I was. After. After I'd come back from Kona at the end of 2009, I had, like, a couple of people interested in a few offers and stuff, but I just, like, led Kona for, like, two hours, and I had, like, the Specialized wanted to sponsor me, and, you know, I was like, the next best thing in triathlon. And I was just like, at the top of the sport, really. And I just felt like, you know, if I was going to cycling, I'd be like, I would just be a nobody. But at that moment, I was a somebody in triathlon, so I felt like I'd rather be a somebody in triathlon than to kind of just go back and be a nobody in cycling. But, you know, looking back on it, maybe it would have been a. I was young enough then to maybe just like take a year out and just, you know, try and do that because I'm obviously very passionate about cycling and it would have been a good opportunity, you know, to try and do that. But I'm far too old now to, you know, even think about getting a pro contract with like a pro tour team or anything like that. But, you know, in hindsight it would have maybe been a nice opportunity to do it for like a year or two and see if anything had happened. But, you know, I'm not gonna complain because I've had. The last 10 years have been absolutely fantastic. So, yeah, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not disappointed that I never did that.

So, yeah, brilliant, brilliant. I want to dive into kind of what specifically you find yourself sort of recommending or what things that you have really helped you. And I want to start with your training. So I remember listening to another podcast that you were interviewed on, on the Brick session. And I think it was either that or whether it was an article I read on you. And I remember you saying that, you know, you used to really kill yourself in training. You know, you ride 200 kilometers to York, then you'd, then you'd run up skiddaw and then, Sorry, from York to Keswick, that was it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, skiddaw. And then you'd be cycling back to York the following day. So how's your training evolved over the years and how, you know, what do you think are the secrets to a successful season now for you?

I think, I mean, I hate to be that boring, you know, like coach, but it is just about boring. Consistent consistency is the thing that really, really helps and that's really, really hard, like motivation wise. So I think the older you get, I think it's important to try and find out the right balance of like, consistency, which is like just 30 hours a week, you know, trying to recover mixed in with, you know, that what you've just said there, you know, like the adventure, the doing something, you know, spectacular. Obviously me riding 200k to Keswick, running up to God and then riding back, that's not like a normal training week, you know, that's like a one off thing. But doing stuff like that keeps your training exciting and fresh. You know, if you're doing the same thing week in, week out, sort of by yourself, you know, it's really not much fun. But if you can do like these mental things, you know, sometimes even just little things like, you know, I rode back from Keswick, I did a 50 mile TT in Keswick. About three weeks ago, and I rode back the following day. Sometimes it's nice just to do that ride and then just upload it onto Strava and then you look and you go, God, it really is a long way. You know, I've basically ridden right across the country. You know, when you zoom out and you see that you've done 200k in a straight line, you're like, Jesus. It's trying to give you little nuggets like that just to keep you going, which sort of helps the greater consistency along. But sometimes I get into a dangerous thing of doing too much of that exciting stuff and then you just end up in a box. So I'll do something like that. Then you probably do like two or three days of absolutely nothing because you're absolutely exhausted. That doesn't really breed. Breed good consistency. So it's just trying to find what load and what keeps you interested is best for you, if that makes any sense.

Yeah, I think it's really interesting because I would imagine that the key to successful, the most successful training is following a very strict training regime. And yet mentally, that's not necessarily the best approach, is it?

And, yeah, I think at the end of the day, you know, it's very easy to get suckered in. But my philosophy and, you know, I've started doing a bit of consulting on coaching and stuff like that through Graves consulting. But at the end of the day, this is what I tell people, sometimes you just got to stand back and look and think, you know, this is supposed to be our fun thing, you know, it's very easy to take it far too seriously, you know, and that's, at the end of the day, what ends relationships and, you know, put strain on family and stuff like that. At the end of the day, triathlon and sport, even for me, that is our fun thing. And it's very easy for it to get, get out of hand, you know, so it's not just about that consistency in training. It's about that whole life balance consistency as well. Because obviously the happy athlete trains a lot better than a miserable athlete. So, you know, like, if you're, if you're like a standard age group athlete and you're doing like 25 hours a week, but you're miserable as hell and you're not seeing your wife's upset because you never see the kids and, you know, you're making no time for the family and stuff, you know, that's. I would say that's definitely a negative thing when this is supposed to be our Fun thing. Whereas, you know, an athlete doing maybe 10 hours less, who has a much better balance, who's happy, is going to enjoy it a lot more and probably perform just as well as the person who's doing 25 hours a week miserably, if that makes sense.

Yeah, I think it's a really good point. I think it's. Yeah, and it's. And it's also. I'm never quite mentioned this a few times, but I'm never a fan of the term jump miles because it might not be your optimum training session, but if it's putting your head in the right place, even if it's not physically pushing you as hard as you could be, for me, that seems like it's still got a worthwhile place.

Yeah, well, I'm very lucky that I've not got a wife or no real people depending on me. And sometimes I see cycling as my hobby. That's one of the hobbies that I enjoy. So sometimes I'll do go out on the bike and it will be training, and sometimes I'll go on the bike and it's a hobby ride. You know, it's very. Sometimes it's kind of important to do stuff like that and think, you know, I'm riding my bike because I really enjoy riding my bike, not because I'm riding my bike, because my coach has told me that I need to do four by 10 minutes, whatever. That's what I'm gonna do, you know, and my aim is to, like, put it on Strava and Instagram and, you know, tell my friends all the power and stuff like that. You know, sometimes it's just nice just to go out and just ride the bike as a hobby, because that's what you really enjoy doing. I do see a lot of people racing and training and stuff, and you just gotta look at. Look at them and say, are you really enjoying this? You know, are you really, like, doing these races and doing the cycling and stuff because you really enjoy it, or are you doing it, you know, to satisfy some ego thing or something like that?

I think that's really sound advice. I think very, very good advice. Sticking on training. What was it like training with the Brownlees? And how does that happen? How did they compare to other people you've trained with? What were they like?

Well, with some people, you get volume. Some people just do loads and loads of volume, and some people just do loads and loads of intensity. But with them, it's just volume and intensity. So it's just like a death march. Really literally just in one big hole all the time. And like looking back, I'm thinking like, you know, stand me next to like Johnny. Like we're completely different body types. Like he's a, he's an ectomorph and I'm like an extreme mesomorph. And we were doing exactly the same training, which probably wasn't ideal. You know, it's training which suits him. But for me, I think I need much more short and more powerful, explosive training because that's the sort of athlete that I am. So I felt like I was just in a massive hole all the time. So when it came to the quality sessions, I've been doing so much volume that I just couldn't really hit the high quality sessions. Like I was doing mental training. Like on a Wednesday. Some days I'd do 4 1/2 K in the pool on the morning, do a 4 hour bike ride, run 50 minutes and then do 5K in the pool in the evening. Like, it's just, I'd be swimming like 9 1/2 k a day, riding 120k and running like 11. Like it was just absolutely mental. Like I don't even know how I did it. I look back in some training diaries and I'm like, how the hell did I pull that off? Like, I just have no idea. But yeah, the positive thing that they've got is there's just the training group is just really, really strong and you know, everybody, you know, wants, wants to push and yeah, it just gets results at the end of the day.

Must have been quite an experience. You mentioned you suffered from Achilles tendinopathy previously. How did you, how did that sort of manifest itself? What? You know, was it just aching Achilles? What? Tell me, describe what it was like and then how did you end up solving that problem and avoiding it coming back if you have managed.

So it was when I was out in Australia, New Zealand racing, trying to qualify for the Rio Olympics. I did, I think I did a few brick sessions in a pair of shoes and I sort of had a few little niggles and then I did a World cup race in New Plymouth and my Achilles after that were both just shot to pieces. I think it was just, it wasn't just like more an acute thing. I think it would maybe been building for a long period of time because, you know, I'd been doing massive volume and speed all winter. I'd kind of just reached a breaking point and that was just like the, just what, just what pushed me over the edge. So that was sort of March 2015 and it was just. I just felt it wasn't. Best managed, to be honest, like going into that European Games race, I still wasn't really running very well at all. I was still in a lot of pain. I can remember doing some heat chamber sessions before and it just felt like my feet were like dropping off from my legs because the Achilles was just so sore and week. So I did European Games that went really, really well. And then British Triathlon wanted me to go to St Moritz on a training camp for like a month. And I was like, look, there's just no way that I can, I can go because I've been the previous year and it is literally like the hardest camp I'd ever done, like altitude. It was just, it was really, really tough and I was like, look, my Achilles is so. So there's no way that I can go. And I just had to take some time off and just come away and just. I tried to do absolutely everything to get them better. I was seeing physios and trying to do literally everything. And there's one specific way where you have to do the lengthening, stepping down on a step and sort of lengthening the Achilles to strengthen it up. I was doing all that trying to increase the load so gradually, but it took probably about eight months to get better. It wasn't until sort of early 2016 that I was sort of running again pain free. It took a lot, a lot of work, a lot of work to get them better. But thankfully, touchwood, they've not, not really had any problems since. Sometimes I'll get a little bit of hypersensitivity because I'm just very cautious about them now. But yeah, they have been alright. And I think some physios say that, you know, after you've had it once, then they'll just harden up and you probably won't have it again. But I've just got a. I think it's when I get on the track and I start running, it's sort of over about 18, 19 km an hour when it really starts to hurt. So I've just kind of not. I've kind of. As I've gone back to the Ironman stuff, I've not been doing so much of the faster track running, which I was doing before in Leeds. So I haven't had any flare up since and I think that's why.

Fantastic. And coming up to nutrition, you mentioned when you were younger you could eat anything, but perhaps not so much now. What have you refined going into an Ironman and Through an Ironman. What would your nutrition stuff do you look like nowadays?

Well, really I'm pretty bad at nutrition if you ask anybody that knows me. I still eat just whatever, it just goes on as just. I wish it would go on as fat but it goes on as muscle mass which is even harder to lose. So yeah, so I kind of, I kind of. When I've got like a fixed, I'm very all or nothing. So when I've got like a fixed goal. So say I'd like Iron Man Wales fixed there for me to go for. If I have a goal that I'm very passionate about, that's there, that's fixed, then it's like somebody's just flicked a switch in my head because I'm so all or nothing. I think sport, especially being involved from sport at such a young age, it kind of just breeds that into you because if you're not all or nothing, you won't make it. That's it. So then I'll be on the carrot sticks and everything like that for months on end leading into the race. I think recovery wise there's a few little supplements that I take. I take some l carnitine which helps metabolize fat a lot better. I find that really works. And just some al amino recovery drinks. And obviously going into the race I don't really do anything special. People are like, oh, you know, what do you eat before a race? And stuff like that. I just try and keep it as normal as possible because the last thing before Ironman is you don't want to start banging in all this new food because your body's just going to turn around and go, what the hell's happening here? Why have you changed my diet so drastically? You know, your body is very, very my body. It can be quite sensitive at times. So especially when you've got such a massive thing as an ironman to do, I think it's best just to keep your body feeling as normal as possible for as long as possible until like that race morning, then you sort of just destroy it. So it's just normally like rice. My usual pre race meal, I guess it's kind of psychological is I always try and have some black pudding, right. Because I always say, you know, the.

Sign of any nutritious diet that's the.

Closest to blood doping that I'm gonna get at the end of the day is eating some black pudding.

Proper Yorkshire endurance fuel.

Yeah. So that's what I do. And even in, even in Dubai over winter before my races, my girlfriend and I, we would go to like this local supermarket and go into the pork room around the back and, you know, like slyly get the black pudding and take it home and have it as our pre race meal. And it definitely, I find it definitely worked and it's more just a psychological thing, you know, but that's like my little sort of. If I had any sort of pre race rituals, that would have to be the one that I always eat some black pudding before any race that I can.

Definitely the first time I've heard that.

And what about during the race?

Are you on gels or do you prefer bars.

Gels and flapjacks? Normally I don't like doing all gel because I think that sort of, psychologically your body needs to chew a bit to make sure it's getting in some calories. So say if I was doing Ironman rails, I'd have like maybe two or three flapjacks on the bike, mostly a gel every 20 minutes and maybe like the odd flapjack, like two or three flapjacks. And on the run, like a gel every 5K, some little jelly sweets which are really soft and easy to eat. But again, a lot of it is just practicing it. What you do in training, I find that's really important. And loads and loads of watered down Coke. I know I keep referring back to Ironman Wales, but they have like a special needs aid station there that you pass three times. So usually in my special needs bag every lap I'll have like, I'll buy like a 750 milliliter bottle of water with a sports top and buy three or four of those and then empty out half the water and fill the half with Coke. So I know that because the aid stations, you go in through the aid station, you pick up a cup and it's got the tiniest bit of water in the bottom and you're like, oh, my God, that was a waste of time. At least then I know every 10k I've got access to one 750 milliliter bottle which I can just grab, which is going to be half water, half Coke and I can just chuck that. Obviously, because I'm from Yorkshire, I'm really good at chugging, drinking stuff. I can just chug that, like carry it for like 400 meters to the aid station around the corner, just chug it and then just chuck it away at the aid station. So I know at least I've got, you know, a decent drink every lap. It's just trying to find little things like that which work for you. And trying to practice it in training.

That sounds like a good idea. Because I actually, I like the idea of diluting the coke as well, because I. The flat coke at Ironman Wales. Sorry, At Ironman, Italy. I've got Wales on the brain now. Was. Yeah, it was just too much for me. But more diluted would probably be better.

Yeah. I think it's just more than knowing that, you know, if you put stuff in your special aids, but even if it might cost you 20 seconds to get that big drink or whatever, you know, you don't have to bother for the rest of the course, the rest of the lap, and you don't have to slow down to get all the cups and break your rhythm and stuff. You know, you've got that guaranteed drink there. You might as well use it, you know.

Brilliant. Okay, fantastic. Sounds like good advice. Are there any books or podcasts? But, you know, maybe books ideally that you found really helpful or books that you recommend regularly that you. That you kind of keep referring back to?

Not too much. The only thing I can say is when I was like 12, I bought this complete triathlon book. And in it, it's very Americanized, because triathlon was Americanized back then. And then it had a list of everything that you'd need to go for race day and like your race day thing. And even now, to this day, like 20 years after I bought it, I still take the book out and look at the list and make sure I've got everything on the list. So if that's proof for anything, I think it's make sure that if you are a triathlete, write a list of everything that you need for race day, maybe like laminate it or something like that, and just have it around. So every time you go to a race or something like that, you've actually got something back to refer to. So you don't forget anything. Because even to this day, nine times out of 10, I'll have forgotten something, be it like baby oil or elastic bands or some really mundane thing which has nothing to do with triathlon, but it's just a nice little thing to have that you actually need.

Well, I did a similar thing. I bought a book called Beginner's Guide to Triathlon or Triathlon. A beginner's guide, I think. And it gave you lists. And those lists have gradually evolved over. I've got spreadsheets, being the sort of person I am. But I have to say, what I love about it is it de stresses the preparation. The first few triathlons you do there's so much angst around how I, what have I forgotten? Whereas you go through that list mentally like I know I've got everything that I need, so I think that's very good advice.

Yeah, we've all been there like putting everything on the bed and thinking, God, that's a lot of stuff.

What have I forgotten?

Yeah.

And so final question, because you've been very generous with your time, what are you excited about right now? What are you looking forward to? What's going to happen over the next year for you to feel that's been a successful year?

Well, if I'm brutally honest, what I'm really looking forward to right now is Wonder Woman 1984 been released in October. I'm looking forward to that, looking forward to some of the Lego sets that are going to be released between now and Christmas. There's going to be a brand new Diagon Alley and apparently there's going to be like a 9,000 piece Roman Colosseum that they're going to release. So that's going to be quite exciting. What else am I looking forward to? I'm looking Forward to the 100 mile time trial that I've got in a week on Saturday because I always do that the week before Wales. I usually just do it as a training ride because I don't want to go too hard because I think, well if I'm racing Ironman Wales then I'll probably do a four hour ride the week before anyway. So why not just do it on a time trial bike on a dual carriageway and knock out a decent time. So I'd like to go under 3:30 for that. Ideally some normality would be nice, back into a life and yeah, I think it would just be nice just to just have something set in stone. But literally right now I just don't, I just, I think everybody's trying to predict the future at the moment and nobody really can, you know, like I'd love to 100% nail on Ironman Lanzarote next May, but who knows if it's gonna happen? Who knows if we're all gonna be here by then, you know, it's a long time away.

Let's work on the basis that we are all going to be here.

Yeah, well I definitely like to go and do Ironman Lanzaro. I absolutely love that race there and hopefully Ironman Wales will be on again next year. I think the one thing that I've really missed this year and it's only been sort of apparent by going to the time Trials and stuff is you sort of miss the people, don't miss the sport, but you really miss the people that you meet through the sport and what the sport, the opportunities that the sport gives you. So, yeah, I've really missed all the people at the races and seeing them because I had like the first 50 mile time trial, the first real big time trial that I went to was a 15 Keswick the other week. And you know, I know, you know, Brian Fogarty was there, one of your friends and stuff, and Andy Jackson and it was kind of like, it felt like it was like a big reunion, like a school reunion. You know, nobody's seen each other for months and months and months. Yeah, that's kind of what I'm really looking forward to. It's just seeing everybody again and just catching up and, you know, really enjoying those friendships that I've built up over the last sort of like 20 years in the sport and stuff.

Well, that's good to hear because, you know, I think that one of the things that I found amazing about getting into these sports is the people that you meet and the friends that you build around it and, and hence the whole concept of Tribathlon. Trying to help them find more of those friends and find out where they're entering events so that you can do the events with them. For me, it's an amazing community and so the app is there to help people expand their tribe. So, Phil, it's been an absolute pleasure getting to know you better. There's some great advice in there. It's an incredible story, but I'm going to keep my eye on you because I think there's huge things come in the future as well. I think, I think we've only just seen you scratch the surface. So thank you very much for your time. It's. It's been a real pleasure.

I'm sure he'll agree. What a great guy. Really funny, lovely to, to chat to, but also so much to learn, particularly around the motivation within the sport and how important the people are to him enjoying the sport. And also I think it was really important learning about how we should make sure that we actually enjoy our training, not just for training sake. Ultimately we are all doing this for fun. There's very few of us that are going to be making a living out of this, so it's vital that we actually enjoy our training. So, so much to learn, including. Who'd have thought it, black pudding as a pre race meal. Probably not for me, but I'm sure it will flick a few switches for some of you. So anyway, I hope you enjoyed that conversation as much as I enjoyed chatting to the absolute legend that is Phil Graves. This podcast is brought to you by Vita Coco, the delicious coconut water, particularly their pressed coconut product. I absolutely love that. And if you go to Ambient Supplies, the online retailer, you can use the discount code Vita Tribe 15. That's all Capitals Vita Tribe 15. You can even have 15% off your Vita Coco order. Enjoy the health conscious, electrolyte packed Vita Coco and don't forget to download the triathlon app for more amazing podcasts, but also to help you train, compete, and to build your tribe.