Crystal Dunn: Chapter 3 - Your Game and Why It's Great

That's what the environment has really created, that feeling of, you know, I want to be better. And even though I'm good now, I'm not resting on my laurels. I want to compete at the highest level. I want to make it to the national team stage, I want to make it to the pro stage. And I think in college, it's so easy to just stay in the moment, obviously, because you're worried about that 1v1 competition that you have that day. But those were little things that Anson was actually instilling in us that we actually didn't really know about. But if you put in the work that day, that week, you were setting yourself up already for 10 years down the road. You know, it all took us till leaving college that we realized we were prepared for the pro level, we were prepared for the national team level because we've been working hard for a long time now. We've been setting our standards high for a long time now. And I think that's truly because of the environment that Anson created at the university, that we were prepared.

You're listening to the Vision of a Champion Podcast with Anson Dorrance, eight time coach of the year, 22 time national champion coach of the 1991 Women's World Cup, Team hall of Famer, leader and mentor to so many in the soccer community. On this podcast, Anson brings on players and coaches to discuss what it means to be a champion. The drive, the passion, the desire, and, yes, the stories.

Here's your host, Natalie Boddy.

Hey, everyone. Welcome to the Vision of a Champion podcast. I'm your host, Natalie Boddy, a color analyst for the Tar Heel Women's Soccer Program and the North Carolina Courage. Today's episode of the podcast, we will move on to chapter three, titled you Game and why It's Great. In this chapter, Anson further details what truly makes soccer live up to the coined term the the beautiful game. And he elaborates on how soccer brings all kinds of different people together, specifically by explaining some of the different soccer personalities that exist and how each of the different personalities are an asset in a team setting. Today we are joined by the widely successful Crystal Dunn, who played at UNC from 2010 to 2013 and was an integral part of the 2012 national championship team. Her success didn't stop there as she moved to the NWSL and the Washington Spirit, becoming the league MVP and Golden boot winner in 2015, the youngest player ever to be awarded that trophy, might I add. After a stint with Chelsea in the fawsl, she returned to the US to play for the NC Courage with our most recent guest, Paul Riley. And they've won back to back NWSL championships in 2018 and 2019. These achievements do not even include her current run with the U.S. women's National Team and their World cup championship performance in France last year. And quite frankly, her long list of individual accolades are too many for me to count. But I'm going to name a few. ACC Player of the Year, NWSL Best 11, New York Gatorade High School Player of the Year, and many, many more. And as always, we are joined by the man who helped transition Crystal Dunn from high school standout to a star on the world stage, Anson Dorrance. Speaking of way too many accolades to count, anson is a 22 time national champion and world champion coach, creator of the greatest dynasty of all time, and as my co host Dean Linke appropriately put it, the greatest college sports coach ever, male or female, for any sport. Welcome guys. Very happy to be here with you both.

Yeah, what a great introduction. And by the way, everyone in my house can hear this, so I hope Melissa is listening. She just thinks I'm the guy that takes out the garbage. So again, this is really important. My domestic tranquility, Natalie. So thank you.

Of course. And I'm actually going to start with a question for you, Anson. In the chapter you described three distinct personalities of soccer players. The warrior, the artist and the visionary. Would you mind breaking those down for the listeners?

Yeah. So obviously in preparation for the podcast, I read over that chapter myself. And by the way, we couldn't have picked a better player to come here and represent basically everything about the game. Because, gosh, is this Crystal Dunno Warrior? And here's what I love about the game. There are all kinds of different aspects of it that I think are genuinely extraordinary. I mean, you can bring in this unbelievably competitive fire, this risk taking personality, this, you know, this person that just drives through people with one goal in mind, even if it might cost her, you know, an arm or a leg. And of course for me, that's Crystal. Even though, you know, she played left back on this world championship team for the United States, she is unstoppable off the dribble. And I think she's an incredible example of this warrior. And I think that quality, this risk taking, aggressive quality has to be a part of your personality at the highest level. And it's certainly part of Crystal's the artist. This is where her 1v1 qualities come in. I don't think Crystal knows when she's running at someone1v1. How, how she's gonna beat them. I certainly don't know what's gonna happen. And I know that defender has no clue about how she's gonna get carved up. But I think at last possible second through obviously her own unique creative genius. Crystal has a way of just going right through people. And so that part and that box is checked by having this guest on our show. And then finally, the visionary. I mean this is the one that can make that final ball, that can get someone in a bent ball. And let me tell you something about Crystal playing left back for the United States. She's not left footed, but because she was asked to play a position that she hadn't played that much in the past, she developed a great left foot. And we're watching her time and again getting all these players up top in the United States. She's basically playing right underneath Rapinoe and of course defending for Rapinoe because defense and Rapinoe are sort of separate elements of the game. So here Crystal's on the side with a player that doesn't want to defend. So she's carrying basically two players. But what I love is her ability to get her in to get Alex Morgan in, play the ball into the playmaking midfielders. I mean, she checks every box in this chapter and I'm so glad she's our guest today.

So going off of that, Krystal, what can you say about the personality that you feel you fit and it may be it's a couple because as Anson mentioned, you're multi talented all over the field. With every team you play with, you have a different role. You can be a defensive player, an attacking mid. So which personality do you feel you embody? Has it evolved? Does it change depending on your position?

Yeah. First of all, I can't stop from like my cheeks hurting right now because Anson has said so many amazing things about me and Anson. Thank you so very much. You have always been one of my biggest fans. Your messages after every single game. Sometimes I'm like, it's really late. What are you doing up so late? But thank you so much for those kind words. But you know, Anson for sure has developed me into this versatile player. To be fair, he was the first coach that really saw me fit a lot of positions on the field. And even though he knew I didn't want to switch, I wanted to be an attacking player. I only wanted to go forward. You know, he was the one who instilled confidence in me in playing multiple roles. So you Know, every single year, every single day, I feel like I'm really trying to evolve as a player. I think the game already is evolving quicker and quicker. That's why constantly have to be on your toes and, you know, have new ambitions. And I think for me, I just try to fit as many categories because I know the game is constantly changing. So what is asked of me changes every single year. And I think Anson touched on it. Playing left back on the national team, I had to develop skills that I didn't feel so confident in at first. And I think the only way I was able to secure a starting spot on the team was to be coachable, be able to accept criticism, be able to say, hey, you know, that wasn't a great game, but I know I can get better. You know, like I said, it's just a constant evolution with me and playing multiple positions.

So, Anson, before you were a women's coach, before you were even a men's coach, you were a player. So do you feel like you have one of these certain soccer personalities that you actually embodied in your playing career?

Yes. But please, let's not include me in a class with Crystal Dunn. Basically, I was sort of a hard running defensive midfielder. I ran all over the place. I like to crash into things I like. I think I led the ACC in fouling every year I played. But whenever I share that, I also am very proud of the fact I never got a yellow card. I was a very kind hacker, and I always had a very gentle disposition on my face, you know, when I smashed someone into the earth. I can certainly have references for you if you want to check on this. My favorite, I guess, aggressive moment was we were playing against Maryland, and back in the day when I was playing, Maryland was the king of the conference. And they had this goalkeeper by the name of, I think, Taret sides or something. I might get this wrong, but basically I could head the ball and I was very brave. And we had a free kick about 40 yards out, and I told the guy that was serving, hey, just serve the goalkeeper. Which meant, you know, serve it the direction of the goalkeeper, because I'm going to go charging in there and, you know, I'll see if I can head it in. So basically, I guess this guy took me literally because he literally served the goalkeeper. So I'm on this full sprint running into the box, and sure enough, I've got my eye on the ball, so I don't even see the goalkeeper. So I go smashing into the goalkeeper. The goalkeeper hits the post, bounces back he hits my head, bounces back again, hits the post as he's rattling into a sitting position by the post. And of course, the referee knew me, and he comes running up, and he said, anson, what have you done? And I said, the guy's name was Jeff. The referee's name was Jeff. I said, jeff, I don't know, you know, this guy. I knew his name at the time, whatever his name was, I hope, you know, George here is. Is okay. And George was rattled. He was concussed. Dragged his limp body off the field, and I didn't even get a card for that. So I was a likable hatchet man. I couldn't do very many things. I could certainly head, I could certainly tackle, I could certainly pass the ball, I could certainly run, but nothing at the level and the variety with which Kristol played. So for me, I was, you know, defensive midfielder and all that entails. Not the most sophisticated of players, but I really enjoyed, you know, working hard, and that was my game.

So, Krystal, in what ways do you feel like Anson helped you develop your game, to reach your potential, really take on this player Persona? And how did that translate from, obviously, the collegiate level, playing at unc, Anson coaching you to the world stage, to the professional stage? What was the difference between the two?

Yeah, I think, you know, if we're going off of the three traits, you know, being a warrior, being an artist, being a visionary, I think I wasn't great at all three of those. When I came into college, I, you know, obviously being a top player in New York, getting recruited to go and go to unc, you think you're a good player, and then you get to college and you're like, actually, I'm not as good as I thought I was. And I think it was really eye opening to step into a program that encouraged competition. I think I had to learn how to be a warrior. You know, I thought I was a decent defensive player, but in the middle of the pitch is where I played mostly in college. Anson told me, you know, you have to defend, you have to work hard, you have to make sure that if we lose the ball, you're the one winning it back. And I think developing into a warrior is something that came over time. It wasn't instant. It wasn't. When I first stepped into the university, I think I definitely had to take that role by the head and really just hold on to it and get better. And then I think, as far as being an artist, Anson always goes back and says, you're really Great at dribbling, obviously, but you will definitely pass this ball to. How would you put it, Anson Eggley?

Yeah. Let me share how I put it. This is important. I'm glad you remembered that. I used to tease Crystal all the time. So when you're coaching players, Natalie, as you know, you want to have a great relationship with them. So whenever I criticize someone and I'm about to give you the criticism I gave Crystal, it has to be laced with humor, because, holy cow, any criticism hurts. But the way you can sort of dampen it a bit is to attach it to something that's funny. So here's what I used to say. I used to. And this is performance art. I would even have all these pauses when I was critiquing her. And this is one of my favorites. I'm so glad Crystal remembered it. I used to say, you know what, Crystal? No one ever can take the ball away from you. And then I would pause and I would say, until you pass it.

Yeah. Because basically, she was a brilliant dribbler. And even as a center back, for me, I mean, one of the best ways for her to get into midfield were to carve up the nines. She had no trouble beating a forward. Are you kidding me? I mean, she could do that in her sleep. So she'd win the ball rather than pass it into our 10. She would just dribble right through the forwards that she had just marked. So she had no issue, you know, beating people off the dribble. And of course, her evolution was basically rounding out her game. And now when I look at her play, holy cow. I mean, she never gives the ball away. She's an excellent passer, but the quality that separated her, and I assume has separated her every day of her life is this ability to just carve people up. That's what attracted me to her. When I saw her play for Albertson back in the day, I'm looking at this little left winger. I'm thinking, oh, my gosh, no one can stop this kid. I was so excited. And then when I started recruiting her, I was excited. And then obviously, when she came, I was also incredibly proud to have her and excited to coach her. And, yeah, her game got better and better. But, Crystal, thank you for remembering that.

Of course I remember that.

That would be nice of you to remember that.

That was the toughest criticism you've ever given me, but I laugh about it every single day now, so it's. It. Clearly it didn't knock me down for too long.

So it sounds like you had no trouble taking on that warrior personality, Crystal, and talking about that specific personality. Anson, in the book, you actually mentioned that it's uncommon in women due to just specific societal standards or how it was, you know, after you wrote the book in the early 2000s, about how women can be kind of shy, taking on that warrior role. And, you know, sometimes we feel like maybe we're in the early stages of the women's game on a higher level. Taking on that warrior role in the early 2000s. Do you think now in that it's really evolved and women are embracing it more? And if so, when you think that change kind of happened and why.

Yeah, I think women are embracing it more. But let's face it, we still raise them to genuflect. We still raise them to be polite, we still raise them not to compete. But they've always existed out there, the warriors, the ones that were confident, that wanted to compete. I mean, one of my favorite lines in Mia Hamm's book was, you know, like, when I came to North Carolina, I could finally be the athlete that I was. And what kind of athlete was that? That's a shark with blood in the water. So I think these girls and women have lived with this quality for a long time. But then, you know, society, their friends, the culture around them has told them, no, no, no, no, you know, we're not going to allow you to be this way because God forbid that you're competitive. And if a man is competitive, it's incredible. He's lauded, he's put on a pedestal, he's, you know, complimented for his competitive fire. And then all of a sudden, if a woman or a young girl exhibits this, you know, oh, no, no, that's not the way to behave. You know, you're losing friends and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So I still think there are pieces of that societal pressure to act a certain way for our girls and young women. But I think it is changing, and I think it's changing for all the right reasons. It's changing because, you know, back in the day, I mean, the April Heinrichs, the Michelle Akers is the original players that were starting to dominate the world. We're demonstrating a different kind of personality right through the modern era where the Rapinos and the Crystal Dunn's and the Tobin Heaths and these other aggressive women are demonstrating there's nothing wrong with being this way. So I think it is changing. And why is it changing? Because the role models out there like Crystal are demonstrating it's okay to be this way. And I think that's changing the culture of the way we raise our young women in the most positive way. And I think it's not like this has never existed before. I think it's always existed. But then society and cultures and other people have tried to put this down. And I think right now the whole world is embracing it.

Hey everyone, we're going to take a quick break here to tell you about our sponsor, soccer.com Anson has been coaching for 44 years and it seems like soccer.com has been around nearly that long as well. It's pretty close as a soccer.com business has been family run and based in Hillsborough, NC since 1984. If you're a player or a coach who needs soccer shoes, equipment, gear, whatever it may be, do what the pros do. Head on over to soccer.com this is Dean Linke.

I hope you've been enjoying the podcast and I, I wanted to make you aware that Anson just released a new audiobook version of his hardcover book, the Vision of a Champion. Now you can listen to the book, narrated by Anson Dorrance, and switch back to the free podcast to hear the stars of the women's game discuss each chapter. The Vision of a Champion Audiobook is available on Apple Books, Amazon's, Audible, Google Play, or wherever you get your audiobooks. To find it, simply search the Vision of a Champion audiobook. Now let's get back to the show.

So, Crystal, did you ever kind of battle with that competitive fire inside yourself? Has it always been innate or did you release it later on? Was it a struggle?

Yeah, honestly, you know, I think playing this sport, you, there's a level of competitiveness that you, you know, you can't hide from. At the end of the day, no one wants to lose. So you're stepping onto a training pitch and, you know, on that day, it's 1v1s and 2v2s. You're like, all right, if I wasn't feeling competitive today, now it's for certain that it's there in our 1v1s. I can't even go into details about it. It was so intense. I mean, I was so tired and exhausted at the end of every single 1v1s. And I'm pretty sure, correct me if I'm wrong, but we would do 1v1s at the beginning of training. Like it wasn't at the end of training. So that was pretty much a, you know, hey, we warmed up, let's get right into it kind of thing. So, you know, just the Environment trained you to embrace competition and also, you know, make it part of your daily routine. You know, every day, you knew waking up, and if I'm not ready to go, my teammates are going to beat me. And, you know, maybe that decides whether I'm starting or not playing that game that weekend. So the environment definitely made us all feel like, you know, we're in this together. Competition is great. It's going to make us better, and it's going to shape us for moments down the road, not even just in college.

So I feel like you typically find that warrior mentality in star players and players that can lead a team. And, Anson, you actually mentioned in the book how the warrior personality, it goes kind of with heroism and how you warn against heroism hurting the team as a whole. If you have one star player that is carrying the team or someone decides that, you know, they are the hero. But as a coach, how do you support that type of mentality and being confident and having the competitive fire we speak of without negatively affecting your teammates or team chemistry as a whole?

Natalie, first of all, fantastic question. And I'm asked this question regularly. Certainly my coaches that look at the cauldron that we've developed over the years, and they all shake their heads saying, you know, Anson, I'm so afraid to implement this. And I asked them, why? Well, I just have this feeling if we try to go just like you're going, the kids are going to hate each other. And you know what? There is a little bit of tension in that. And I agree that there is always going to be tension in that. And you know what? There has to be tension in that. And you have got to be comfortable in that environment. You got to be comfortable competing. You've got to be comfortable, you know, beating your friend to death in practice. It is a challenge for our young girls and women. It's no issue for the men. I mean, I use this analogy all the time, and it's such a simple one. And because our culture knows and loves basketball, everyone's going to understand this analogy. If a guy's out there shooting hoops one day and he's shooting alone, all of a sudden, another guy shows up. One of them finally turns to the other and says, hey, you want to go? And we all know what that means, baby. Let's find out who the alpha is. Then the two guys go after each other. And holy cow, if this is a brother brother battle or a father son battle, it is blood on the ground. I mean, this is incredibly aggressive. And here's the Difference of a young girl shooting hoops out there, Another girl shows up, one of them doesn't turn to the other and say, hey, you want to go? No. At best they play horse, which is a non confrontational shooting game where the other girl isn't going to want to strangle you to death if you're competitive. And it's because again, the way we raise our young girls and our women and I think what we do exceptionally well at UNC is we figured out a way to let them know this is okay. And if you're really competitive, we are going to protect you. We're going to protect you from the girls in the team that are upset that you're competing. And how are we going to justify that? You've done okay as well. We compete in 28 different categories. There's a bulletin board down in our practice complex. You will know every single minute of every day where you rank in all 28 categories. Why? Because your name's up there. If we have a 30 player roster, you will know if you're 1, 2, 3, 4, all the way down to 30 in that particular quality. And trust me, you don't want to be at, you know, 26, 27, 28 and 29. Because Crystal's right. If that's where you're living in most of the 28 categories, you're not going to get on the field. And Kris was being too humble about saying, you know, if she didn't have a good 1v1 week, I was going to put her on the bench. Are you kidding me? You know, I'm not that much of an idiot. Even if Crystal has a bad week, I know what she can do. I'm going to continue to invest in her. So she was never on the bench. But here's what I know about crystal with those 1v1s and 2v2s and everything else. I know she wanted to be number one. So if she even tied a game, she was as angry as she could be and she'd be worried by the next day when we posted it that she was no longer number one. Of course I'm going to start and play the great ones. What they want to be is number one. And trust me, I learned this stuff from Dean Smith. This stuff is in the water at unc. It's been highlighted by the greats like, you know, certainly the Michael Jordans and the Mia Hams and certainly the Crystal Dunns, but you know, the Lawrence Taylors and we could go back through so many extraordinary Tar heel athletes in all sports that have demonstrated this quality because it's in the Tar Heel water, I promise you.

So in the chapter, Crystal Anson kind of described a game where Carla Overbeck started crying on the field because. Not that they lost, not that Carolina lost, but that she was disappointed in her own performance despite her team's win. So would you mind describing. I mean, you're such an established player, such a victorious player with so many accomplishments, but what does a rough game teach you that a win can't? And do you have any particular experience of a rough game you can remember that you wouldn't mind elaborating on?

Yeah, I mean, obviously there's a lot. So, I mean, I can't even sit here and say, like, there's only been one game or, you know, two games here and there. I think the overall definition for me of an off game or a disappointing game, regardless of the score, is, you know, if you go into a game with a standard that you set yourself and you fall short of it, then of course you're going to be upset. So for me personally, it, you know, missed passes, not hitting the mark and playing someone's front foot, but you're playing someone's back foot now, and, you know, now they're under pressure and maybe that leads to a breakaway or things like that. So, you know, the standards that I kind of set for myself is really obviously taking risks, but at the same time, you know, being precise in my passing, you know, staying connected. Obviously, if I'm in the back line, making sure that I don't get beat and my 1v1 defending is spot on. So I think for me, games that the forward is getting the best of me versus the opposite are games that I look back and I go, ah, man, like, that could have been better. I know I could have been tougher in that situation. I let her go by too quick, too easily. So I think there's just a number of things that I know personally I set for myself going into each game and each training, and it's no wonder. Karla obviously was an incredible player because she's crying because she had an off game, but the team wins. That just truly shows that she wants to be an impactful player and she wants to help her team win at all costs. And maybe they got the result that time, but if she were to have the same performance, another game, and the team loses, then she knows that she needed to work on some things that that next go around. So I think that's what the environment has. Has really created that feeling. Of, you know, I want to be better. And even though I'm good now, I'm not resting on my laurels. I want to compete at the highest level. I want to make it to the national team stage. I want to make it to the. To the pro stage. And I think in college, it's so easy to just stay in the moment, obviously, because you're worried about that 1v1 competition that you have that day. But I think those were little things that Anson was actually instilling in us that we actually didn't really know about. But if you put in the work that day, that week, you were setting yourself up already for 10 years down the road. And I think, you know, it all took us till leaving college that we realized we were prepared for the pro level, we were prepared for the national team level, because we've been working hard for a long time now. We've been setting our standards high for a long time now. And I think that's truly because of the environment that Anton created at the university, that we were prepared.

Anson, with the great players like Crystal, what is the key to really helping them maximize their potential, understand their strengths? But even as Krystal mentioned, lifting them back up after their failures, even knowing that they have so much talent but can have a rough game, what do you typically do in those situations?

Well, honestly, so much of this starts with the athlete. So I don't want to pretend there's some sort of formula that you can sort of throw out there that works for everyone. All these kids that make it to the highest level, they've got, you know, some IT factor inside there. I've tried to figure out ways to divide this up to let them know what piece of their, I guess, algorithm is critical for their success that they need to work on. So I break it down into sort of nine different categories. And Crystal has heard, you know, this stuff forever. But I just try to do it in a way to allow them to see the piece that they're missing. So when I meet with them, and I meet with them in very formal meetings three times a year, I meet, you know, early in the preseason to the early part of the season once, and then I meet as soon as they get back in January, then I meet with them again just before the summer. And these are very serious meetings, and I've got all my data in there, and then we talk about all these things. But the most important part of the meeting is this part where I talk about these nine different categories. And they are self, discipline, competitive, fire, self, Belief, love of the ball, love of playing the game, love of watching the game, grit, coachability. And I've actually added one. And even though we had it in a different part of our structure, I've now added it in this conversation. I call it connection. And connection is your ability to answer this question, do you love your teammates and do they love you? And that's a very important character piece because if you're gonna have an incredible team, there has to be this love of teammates. Because this, I think the most powerful quality in elite women's teams is playing for each other. And this bond, this chemistry bond is actually visible. Which is why when the US Was attacked this summer for beating, I think, Thailand to death, they all stuck together. They didn't have, you know, some saying, well, you know, yes, I completely agree with that. That's ridiculous. You know what we did. No, no, no, no. This is a team. And I don't care who you walked up to on that team, they all said the same things. It wasn't like, and I don't know this, but it wasn't like they had a meeting. Well, here's how we're going to react to this criticism. No, this is them protecting each other. This is them having each other's backs, and this is them loving each other. And I absolutely loved it. And regardless of where you stand on this, this is a team. And all of a sudden, when they're being attacked, you know, by the media and all the self righteous, you know, social justice warriors that are out there, I think this brought us together even more. So I loved it. So for me, there are all these different qualities. And I think my job as a coach is to show them where they are in all nine categories. And if they've got to work in one or two of these to get to their potential, then here it is. Let's work on this, because I tell you, you are phenomenal at this. You're phenomenal at that. But you know what? This maybe needs a little bit more of an investment. And then of course, it's up to the athlete because you can't whip someone into selecting all nine categories. These are choices all of these kids get to make if they want to be extraordinary. And if they don't choose it, then you know that they have, you know, they've selected to put their time into something else. And what I tell them all the time is just make sure, you know, wherever you've put your time, rather than this area, they can take you to the promised land. It's more important to you than getting to the promised land. So these are conversations I think all coaches have with their kids on a regular basis. And those nine categories, the categories I use to help these kids sort out what they need to correct if they want to be truly extraordinary.

So on the receiving end of that, Crystal, talking about the 10th component that Anson just mentioned, connection. I'm sure coaches out there are curious how connection is cultivated amongst teammates. Is there anything that Anson did during your time at Carolina to help build chemistry and bond between you and your teammates?

Yeah, I mean, connection's obviously hugely important. I think I've always told a lot of people when I walk away from this game, you know, I do want people to remember me as a great soccer player, but at the end of the day, I want them to remember me as a good teammate, someone that they could talk to when they were in time of need or just anything. And I think every day I work to be a good teammate. And I don't think it's something that is easy. I think there's some days that I'm not a good teammate. Maybe I'm having an off day. And it's harder for me now to connect to others and help others out because I feel like I'm going through something. But I think it's something that we all have to work at. And there's some good days, some bad days, same as your performance on the field. You have to work harder each day, each week. So I'm actually really happy about that one being added because I think that builds team culture. I think if you can't trust and can't connect with your teammates, then how do you expect to be successful on the field? And, of course, obviously, in the women's world and women's sports, I feel like people think that we all have to be best friends. It's important that people realize I'm a team of 23. Chances of me asking 23 people out to dinner and going to the mall is very, very unlikely. So I think as long as there's that respect, there's that understanding that, hey, I know if I'm doing a recovery run, you're also going to do a recovery run for me. And that mutual respect is there. I think that really is the key to championships and just successful careers.

Crystal, I'm going to continue with another question for you. But for someone who's experienced so much success, and of course, our successes are not as sweet without our failures as well, how does the prospect of failure, whether it's losing a game not making the playoffs, missing out on personal awards. What does that mean to you? And what can you learn from it? What would you want young girls playing the game today to take away from losses and failures?

Ultimately, it sucks, you know, missing out on a key team, missing out on a roster, not being called up to an important tournament or anything like that. I think, you know, is always going to sting. I'd be lying if I sat here and said, oh, you know, when I failed, I'm just happy as a clam, you know? So I think it's important for people to already know that it's going to hurt. It's going to create a lot of heartache. But at the end of the day, I think great things always come from when you do get knocked down and you obviously fall short reaching a goal. I think for me, obviously, missing out in the 2015 World cup hurt for a long time. I think I was, you know, devastated at first. I was like, do I even want to continue playing soccer this year? I think I need to take a year off. But luckily, I just went back to work and I realized life goes on. Congrats to those that did make the roster. And I think for me, it was about turning the page and kind of refocusing and reinvesting in myself. So all the things that I felt I could have done better and could have proven myself more to the coach, I think I just worked extremely hard on those things and also strengthened the things that I'm already good at. The worst thing you can do is lose all confidence in yourself and think I'm the worst player in the world. Now, I fell short of this dream, but I think it's really about fine tuning and reinvesting in yourself. And I think that's the easiest way to really get back on your feet and continue pushing through.

And I'm glad you mentioned the 2015 roster. I remember just being an avid young soccer player, looking up to the women's game, hearing about that, and then, thank goodness you didn't stop that season because you had an incredible season. You were the youngest player to ever win the MVP or get the golden boot. That was just such a statement that even though I was keeping up with the World Cup, I was more impressed that Crystal Dunn's in the NWSL carrying the game while other people are on a roster internationally. So what a great way to get back up when you had just, you know, missed something that meant so much to you. Knowing that a World cup is another four years away. What a statement you made. And Anson, is there anything that you said to Krystal during that time or any advice that you typically give players when something like that happens and you don't make a roster? And then later on, Crystal became a World cup champion and had such a season, you know, even after the failure sets in. So what would you have told Crystal then? Or maybe you did tell her, but what advice would you give players, Anson?

Well, obviously, Chris's story is a great one. In fact, I think when someone has the honor of writing her biography one day, that section is going to be one of the richest chapters in the book. My favorite chapter in the Carli Lloyd book was this chapter where she's confronted by James Galanis. Basically, he was saying, listen, you haven't invested in yourself. You know, you don't compete, you don't work hard. And he gave her a whole list of issues that she had to correct if she wanted to be extraordinary. And of course, she did correct them, because you saw what happened in 15 when she just went to a completely different level, scoring three goals in the World cup final. I mean, it was just extraordinary. I think Crystal's book will be an unbelievable book, but right now, I predict the best chapter will be her talking about what happened in 2015, because that's when you know what? It does hurt. And I love Crystal's honesty just then. It does hurt. And you do have doubts and you do lose confidence, and you do wonder, well, is there something else I can do? Maybe I can clerk for my father's law firm in New York. I mean, you've probably got all these things going through your mind about what you can do next. And then all of a sudden, there's this little ember that's still alive inside of you that's saying, you know what? I think I can still do this. And at first, it's a really quiet voice, and then all of a sudden, it becomes a bit louder. And then all of a sudden, this little quiet voice starts to get angry. And now you're a little bit upset that you weren't picked. And then, oh, my gosh, guess who gets the wrath for the fact you weren't picked? Every opponent you play against, I mean, every single time you're striking a bull, you've got this competitive anger in there. And if you look at the great careers of some of these great athletes, I mean, Tom Brady was drafted 199th. He is going to retire the greatest football player of all time. Do you know what? To this day, that still pisses him off. It still Gets him out of bed in the morning, it still gets that 40 year old body out there where he's going to continue to play. And I know that motivated Crystal and I hope I'm alive, you know, when someone writes the great Crystal Dunn biography, because I know what chapter is going to be the best and that chapter is going to share with all of us what basically greatness is all about. Because everyone thinks all these great ones, they have such an easy life. No, you pay a huge price to be great. It's never easy, Crystal, that I know you're a world champion, I know you're a NWSL champion, I know all these things, I know you're a collegiate champion. But in my opinion, the best thing you ever did was bounce back from something that could have crushed you and you wouldn't let it happen. So for me, that is your highest watermark and I am so proud.

Thanks, Ants.

And expanding off that. Crystal, I just think about your success at every level. Anson said it, you are a national champion, you won professionally, won a World Cup. But what advice really fired you up? Was it something you found in yourself? What did you go through when you, after being left off the roster, you just, you went off. It was an unprecedented season. You achieved greatness in that season in your own way, even if you couldn't be at the World Cup. But what fueled you during that time other than just being left off the roster? How'd you really find that in yourself?

Yeah, that's honestly a really great question because I can sit here and say, yeah, I did this, I did this, I did that. But ultimately I didn't do it on my own. You know, I had a coach at the time, Mark Parsons, who really believed in me. He was almost probably like, oh, great, you're left behind and this is great for us, you know, so he, you know, really instilled belief in me and I think him giving me the go ahead and making me, you know, a complete free player. Playing the nine that year really encouraged me to be at my best and want to be better and be the best teammate and player I could be that year. So, you know, it wasn't me alone. I had really great teammates that fed me the ball, put me in really great positions to score and help the team win, obviously. And I think it was my mentality, it was waking up each day saying, all right, you know, they left me behind. But I, you know, I have a job to do, I have an NWSL year ahead of me that I think I can make a big splash and.

Just to wrap up this podcast, I have a closing question for both Anson and Crystal. Anson, if you want to take the reins on this one first, go ahead. But if I'm a coach, how do I help identify my players Persona and really maximize their strengths and play into their strengths as a player, a coach, and just help me encourage them.

Well, thanks, Natalie for allowing me to tee off first. Well, first of all, I want to go back to what Krista was saying because I'd love to drill into it a little deeper. And I want to give a shout out to Mark Parsons. When Mark drafted Crystal, she was drafted number one, which obviously I was incredibly proud of. And he knew what he was getting. He knew he was getting a special player. And then I like Mark and he calls me up and he said, anson, you know, tell me about Crystal, what I can do with her. And I said, well, you know, Mark, whatever you do, don't put her at outside back. There's this huge temptation that every coach that gets Crystal done feels like, well, she's got to be an outside back. I mean, this kid can beat anyone off the dribble. Just don't put her at outside back. So anyway, what does Mark Parsons do? Well, he's a pro coach. And what's his college coach telling him where to play Crystal. So the heck with that. So where does he play? Crystal plays right outside back. I don't even think you guys qualified for the playoffs.

So anyway, we did.

We were in fourth, and only by the grace of the Lord, we were fourth.

Okay, well, good. Well then that explains it to me. So anyway, so Marca is really cool. He calls him up after the the season and he said, anson, I want to apologize for ignoring what you said about Crystal. And he said, I just want you to know I'm going to play her at the 9 or the 10. I'm going to play her where you recommended I should play her. And then of course, she took off. The team took off and everything else. To Mark's credit, he was so embarrassed that he absolutely ignored me. A friend of his from England called him up and said, mark, I've got these two kids in England that are interested in coming to the United States. Who do you recommend that we have them contact? And Mark in basically a tribute to me for helping him solve where he should play. Crystal Dunn sent me Alessia Russo and Lata Wooben Moy. I have these two English kids thanks to Mark Parsons, and I have these two English kids because Mark is basically apologizing to me for ignoring me on basically where you should play Crystal Dunn. I am giving a shout out to Mark because this is the last season I'll have a chance to coach these two wonderful English kids. And the only reason I have them is because of Mark Parsons. And so thank you, Mark.

Well, first I want to say that I had no idea, and I'm sure so many people out there have absolutely no idea that that's how you acquired Alessia and Lotta woman boys. So thank you for including that because no one would have known if you wouldn't have included that. Anson, what a story. But I guess just in terms of helping players play to their strength, that they don't necessarily think that if you have vision beyond what they see in their game, what is your go to to help them develop in any certain area. And then, Crystal, on your end, once you get the question just how as a player, coaches have helped you along discovering your potential that maybe you didn't know you had as well. But Anson, go ahead.

And first of all, thank you. Yeah, I think. And most coaches know this, but in case they're young listeners to this podcast, let me throw this out so that we're absolutely clear on this point. If you have an extraordinary strength, that's going to be the reason you're on the field at the highest level. So what you've got to do is to continue to cultivate that strength. In Crystal's case, honestly, it's beating people off the dribble. I mean, she is just unstoppable. 1v1. As long as she maintains that quality and continues to invest in it, there's not a team out there that's not going to put her on the field somewhere. Now, obviously she had to scramble to make sure she had all the other pieces to play left back against the French national team in France to advance in that tournament. And she was playing against one of the best players in the world. So her matchup was tough. So it wasn't so much her dribbling skills in that game that helped us win, but her versatility. And as she shared earlier, her capacity to add other pieces to her game, to get on the field for the United States was huge. Not just for her, but for us. I mean, we're dynastic in women's soccer right now. And one of the reasons, honestly, is Crystal Dunn. There's not a player on that roster that won't say the unsung hero is Crystal Dunn. Because I think everyone else would have been hard pressed to say, all right, rapinoe I'm sorry, but we're going to put you at left back or, you know, I'm sorry, you know, Horan or Mewis or, you know, Lavelle, you're going to be the left back. No, I mean, so basically the fact that Crystal stepped in there and helped us was huge. It doesn't mean she's not working on the rest of her game. It doesn't mean she doesn't have the capacity to play multiple positions. But what she has to do is to continue to get better and better and better. Beating people off the dribble because you have that quality. I was watching France the other day because obviously there's no live soccer anymore and I'm watching Hazard play for the Belgians and I'm watching Mbappe play for France and oh my gosh, they're absolutely unstoppable. Well, Crystal Dunn is absolutely unstoppable. And so that's going to be a quality that will always put her on the field. So my advice is, if you have an extraordinary strength, drill into it and invest in it on a consistent basis and get it to an even higher level, because that's what's going to get you to the highest level. And if you've got these other qualities that are weaker. Yes. Invest in those too, because that might steal you a place on a team like the United States that doesn't have very many holes that you can contribute to helping them get to their potential.

So, Crystal, if you want to go ahead and on your end, talk about how you discovered that as your greatest strength and what steps you really took to develop yourself into an elite player.

Yeah, I mean, Anton touched on it, but really just being coachable. And I think, you know, as a coach, obviously I'm not a coach, but I think the teams that I've been on that have had the greatest success have had very much like minded players on it. And I think you can't have someone that strays away and wants to do their own thing and puts themselves above the team. So I think all the teams that I've had the most success with are teams that, you know, we all set out for the same goal. Obviously each player is different, each role on the team is different. But if I look to my teammates and I feel like I can't trust them, like I said before, and that they're going to make decisions that are just beneficial for themselves versus the team, I think there's no way you can succeed with that. Coaches like Anson have done a really good job of just recruiting the trait that they're looking for, players that want to get better, players that are warriors and they're creative and they also have a great vision of the game. Each person's going to maybe have one of those things, two of those things, maybe all three. But at the end of the day, if the will to want to win and get better is what everyone has on the team, on the roster, I think you know your team is going to be unstoppable. You're going to reach some amazing heights and there's no way you can be stopped.

Great. Well, I want to sincerely thank you two for coming on the podcast and mainly for allowing me to be here and to facilitate the greatness in this conversation. But that was Crystal Dunn, current U.S. women's National Team and NC Courage player and famed Uncle Soccer alum. And as always, we are joined by the coach of the biggest sports dynasty of all time, Anson Dorrance. If you like this show, one way you can support our work is to subscribe to this podcast on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen and leave us a rating and review as well. This show was edited and produced by creative allies and on behalf of myself, Natalie Bode, soccer star Crystal Dunn, and world class coach Endurance, we'll see you next time on the Vision of a Champion Podcast.

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