Sarina Wiegman: Chapter 8 - Levels of Play

Always train the best, make sure you're fit. And when I came in at unc, I wasn't fit enough. I came from an environment that was not as competitive as it was at unc, and the players were there. It's also culture when you're the culture in the US is that it's always about fitness and always about data. They count everything. We don't even think about things. They take count off. But the competitiveness and the focus. When you train, you train. There's nothing else. You have focus.

You're listening to the Vision of a Champion podcast with Anson Dorrance, eight time coach of the year, 22 time national champion coach of the 1991 Women's World Cup, Team hall of Famer, leader and mentor to so many in the soccer community. On this podcast, Anson brings on players and coaches to discuss what it means to be a champion. The drive, the passion, the desire, and yes, the stories.

Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of the Vision of a Champion Podcast. I'm your host, Natalie Boddy, a color analyst for the Tar Heel Women's Soccer Program and the North Carolina Courage to. Today's episode of the podcast will be centered around Chapter eight and go over the different levels of play, all the way from youth soccer to the college level. Anson gives a brief description of each level and the benefits of playing at each of those levels. The latter half of this chapter dedicates time to explain specific strategies to help young, talented players develop and reach higher levels of soccer. This includes trying out for the ECNL or a Players Development League, playing up to an older age group, or a standout female player joining a men's team. Whether you're about to join a youth national team roster or you just kicked a soccer ball for the first time at a rec game, this chapter has something for you. Our guest for today's episode is Serena Wegman, former UNC player and current head coach of the Netherlands Women's national team. Serena is one of, if not the best Dutch female player coaches ever. As a player, she has won the Dutch domestic cup three times and won a national championship with UNC in 1989. Her first cap for the Netherlands national team was when she was 17 and she finished with 104 caps. When she retired in 2001, she was captain of the national team for a long stretch and led her squad through some deep runs in multiple World Cups and European competitions. She's the first Dutch player, male or female, to have 100 caps on the national team as a coach. Her record is Just as impressive. Starting in the Dutch Women's professional league, she won the domestic cup an additional three times before being brought on as an assistant to the Netherlands Women's national team. She became the head coach six months before the UEFA Women's European Championship in 2017. The team was heading into the championship, losing four out of five friendlies and was projected to make an early exit. Serena pulled together a career defining coaching performance and helped her team win the championship over Denmark. After that performance, she was named FIFA's best women's coach of the year and the 2019 World Cup. Her squad had another amazing run and lost in the championship game to the United States. In such a short time as head coach, she has already made the Netherlands a powerhouse with a bright future. We're also joined by Anson Dorrance who coached Serena in that 1989 National Championship team, plus an additional 21 National Championship teams and a World cup winning team. Anson has been running women's soccer since the 80s and Serena Vegman is the new kid in town who already has had some impressive achievements and is ready to accomplish more. I. I'm very excited to hear these two dive into the chapter and break down the different levels of soccer. Welcome to you both.

Thank you, Natalie.

Serena, first off, I just wanted to give you a chance to elaborate on your time at unc, being an American college student and additionally being a soccer player, of course, under coach Jansen Dorrance.

Well, when I came to unc, I wasn't really prepared, but within a couple of days I realized that I was in a, for me, a soccer paradise, that I was in the best environment I could imagine. And I wanted to leave the Netherlands for a long time because there was no recognition for women's soccer, there was no acceptance for women's soccer. So I knew that I wanted to go to the US because I heard that it was really good there. And I think I was really, really lucky to get the opportunity to go to uncle, Although I think Anson and Dino didn't know me that well. They just had some footage from the World cup the year before, which was the first unofficial World cup and we had a chat in China and I said, well, I would like to come to the US and then it went on and I went there and I finally find people that were the same, that were thinking the same as I had. And in Netherlands I didn't have that. I wanted to experience the same thing, were into soccer as I was. And in the Netherlands I was always different because girls didn't play and Girls didn't play as much as I did and didn't love the game, or maybe they did love, but they were not allowed to play. So for me, I got in this environment which was, you know, you were challenged. I always say Anson and Dino, because they were so. They made you feel so welcome, and they had attention for you, and they were great coaches. So the environment and the family, they created kind of a family thing, which made it for me. Like, when I went home, I said this was a football soccer paradise, and it changed my life. I was very receptive for all the things at that age. I was 19. I was very receptive of the things, and I think it changed me as a person, and I think it still benefits me in the way I live now and the way I coach.

Anson, I want to give you a chance to kind of also elaborate on that story. Obviously, talking to Serena, recruiting her to come to unc, and maybe any advice or experience you have for other coaches about, you know, recruiting international players and how the process is different and really making them feel at home. Yeah.

Well, here's what's interesting. First of all, I loved having Serena with us and then love following her career. And I don't know if Serena remembers this, but after that world championship, I was asked to speak in Holland. So I'm there in Holland, and I think Serena remembers this. And I was explaining to all the Dutch coaches that we were basically quantifying technique. So we had all these different ladders where the kids were competing in all the different skill sets. And if you know anything about the Dutch, they're an extraordinarily brutally honest and aggressive sort of culture. And so I'm standing there in front of them, and I'm watching poor Serena watch me get ripped to shreds by all these Dutch coaches that refused to accept anything I was saying.

I didn't realize at that time you experienced it like that.

Oh, no, no. It's absolutely. So I'm sitting there and all these Dutch coaches. And by the way, this is in Zeiss. This is. These are all their national coaches, and most of them, obviously are men, and most of them coach in the men's game. And I'm looking out there, and, you know, I've been coaching a long time, and I've lived all over the world, and I'm used to being attacked. And so, for me, this wasn't something I couldn't bear. It's just something, you know, that happens. And so anyway, I'm getting attacked by all these Dutch coaches about, you Know how you can't quantify technique? You can't see it, so you can't quantify it. And what I was sharing was absolutely ridiculous. And, you know, you can't do this because we rank everything at unc, including your skill set. Trapping, passing, shooting, dribbling and heading. As Serena knows, everything for us is a competition, because I genuinely believe the way you improve in everything is by competing in everything in practice. So, anyway, I was just beaten to death by all these coaches. And I'm looking out there and I'm looking at Serena's face, and I could tell she felt for me. I could tell, you know, she wanted to protect me. She wanted to protect her old coach while I was getting beat up by all of her colleagues. Anyway, so now I'm off to Zeeland because the national team was playing one of the clubs there, and the person that's driving me is one of the people in the room, one of the national coaches for Holland. And we're driving to Zeeland together. And now we're driving through the Dutch windmill district. And so the Dutch coach is, you know, telling me how, you know, this is a really good day because he can tell from the wind that they're going to get a lot of energy from today. And he's giving me all these numbers of the wind measurements. And I'm saying, ah, this is ridiculous. You know, there's no way you can measure the wind. And I'm saying this again and again, and I'm trying to use the same phrases the Dutch coaches were using in the meeting that I had with them about how you can't quantify technique. And this guy couldn't understand what I was trying to say because I was literally trying to mimic every criticism I just got the previous day in Zeist about, you know, you can't measure this and you can't measure that. And all of a sudden, it dawned on him, ah, I know what you're doing. You're telling me the same things we were telling you yesterday. I said, yeah, you frigging idiot. You know, of course you can measure the wind. Of course I can measure technique. And so anyway, it was just a wonderful sort of discussion of, you know, the way I was treated, you know, by the Dutch coaches in Zeiss. And then, you know, I'm, you know, for me, you know, none of this is personal. And so we were having a good time together. By the time we got to Zeeland, we were good friends, and I really enjoyed watching the Dutch national team play. Serena, I am curious about Something. First of all, I love watching your team play in the World Cup. I thought they were extraordinarily competitive. And I think the thing that's always separated our teams at unc, but also separated my national team from all the other teams we played against, I still think it exists today for the United States. I think what separates the United States isn't that we're more tactically sophisticated. I don't think we are. I don't think we're the best team technically. I don't think we are. I think certainly the French are as athletic as we are. And if you look at some of your best players, I think you're just as athletic as we are, as are some of the other teams. But I still think what separates us and what separates UNC and what I'm hoping you learned at UNCLE was this thing about competitive fire, about mentality. And I want you to tell me if any of those experiences when you were in your first year for us is something you reflect on as a Dutch coach. Although of course I know your culture. But tell us if that stuff is something you took into the Dutch water when you got back to Holland.

Yes, definitely. But I wasn't totally understood. The difference in culture was so huge that I took things from unc, but I felt I wasn't understood at that time in the environment I was in. Only some coaches did. But the teams I played in, there was just too much of a gap in the way I experience varsity sports than other ones, than some of them. What I experienced at UNC in that year was so different from the Netherlands. We weren't there yet. We were like varsity players combined with recreational players. And that doesn't fit at all. So I got really interested in people, in behavior. I was already. But when you get older, you get more aware of things. And when I was at unc, I just. What I just said, I was very receptive of the things, but I wasn't aware at all times. I did awareness came afterwards, like being competitive all the time. I had to get used to that. But for me, I was always also in another culture and in another country. And yeah, I came from my parents house and I went to unc and it was so different that it was. Yeah. And so huge for me that I got so many experiences and so many things that I were new. New for me that it took time for me to get. Get it all in place and get aware of the things. But the competitive, like playing every game to win. Always train the best. Make sure you're Fit. And when I came in at unc, I wasn't fit enough. I came from an environment that was not as competitive as it was at unc, and the players were there. It's also culture when you're. The culture in the US is that it's always about fitness and always about data. That's different in the Netherlands. Now, data is very, very more common in the whole sports world. But in the US they were much. They count everything. We don't even think about things they take count of. But the competitiveness and the focus, or like we called that, when you train, you train. There's nothing else. You have focus, and you were just drowned into this. So it's coming. It's you. It becomes you. And I took that with me. And I. When I went to the Netherlands, I was, okay, this what I've experienced now in the us I go, I went back, I said, this is what I want in the Netherlands. And it took about 20 years.

What I was hoping that you poured into the Dutch culture is the sort of training of mentality, because obviously the Dutch know how to train everything else. I mean, my gosh. And I also think that a part of the Dutch culture is training mentality. But there's sort of a difference in the way people treat women all over the world. And obviously in chauvinistic countries that obviously didn't give women the chance early, the way they treat their women is different. So maybe what they're thinking is the women can't handle this competitive stuff. What I was hoping is exactly what you said, that this culture of competitiveness you were experiencing with our women is something you took back into Holland. And here's the other thing that's interesting. Please don't think that everything in the United States was about data. It wasn't. We were about data. No one else was. In other words, please don't think that your experience with us is like the rest of the country. It was not. We were the ones that were doing everything with data. No one else was doing anything with data. You were sort of thinking that, well, this is how America works. No, it's not. That's how we worked. That's what sort of set us apart. So I'm so excited you shared that because I'm watching your team play in this World cup and I'm going, holy cow, in every line. You guys were competitive as could be.

I don't use the word mentality all the time. I used the word behavior and perform. We call, actually, if I translate it directly to English, it's like performance behavior. We talk about if you want to win, you need to be the best you can be, which is, you know, everyone says that's easy to say, but how do you do that? What behavior do you need? And I use words you use. You told the story about Mia training on her own. No one is watching. I already put that down in my dressing room when I was coach of ado. I use those things and then I have a story around it. I use in the World Cup. I use some things that I experienced in the US and it's all about connecting people. So I said, now we are a family. We need each other and we're not perfect. So of course you get conflicts and you get irritated, but how do you react on it and how do you keep connected with each other when it gets hard? You know, when you win, it's really easy when you get setbacks or someone gets really disappointed about a choice that I take and it's your friend. And women, I think are more sensitive for those things. Then what do you do? And you need to perform, so you need to behave or you, you need to control those things and you need to help each other and be positive about things. Although some things can be negative, it's not all fun and it's not all beauty. It is mentally. We talk about behavior, we want to perform, to perform well, and what do we need? And that's how I try to connect with the team and of course, with my staff.

Fantastic, Serena.

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And I also want to give you a chance. Serena, you mentioned that your mentality seemed very different from the mentality in the Netherlands in that 20 year period where you really saw soccer develop for the women's game. So I just want to give you a chance, if you like, just kind of explain how from your time as a youth player to now as a coach, obviously you led your team to the World cup final. How has soccer changed in the Netherlands for women specifically?

There is perspective. The game has grown and it has to do with, of course we have more players, but the first thing is you need to perform well. Because if you perform well, you get visible, you get attention. And we needed that attention to grow. Because when you get attention, then you get more facilities and hopefully you get better coaches and the facilities. And so you can get a youth that can develop because of the facilities and the good coaches. And you need to educate coaches, you need to educate women coaches. So the position of women need to get better, then you can grow. So over the years that the Dutch Federation has made choices that what made the reason that we can develop so we have more people involved and being focused on women's, on the women's game. And in 2007 we got this competition. Vera Pa was important for that with the organization. We got a varsity competition. And before we, you know, when I played, I had to play at 10 o' clock in the morning and a regional and we didn't even have competition for the whole country. So in a lot of, I think in 25 years it has grown so much and we needed that grow. Then you need a better structure, you need better facilities, you need better people, then you get more players. And when you get a better education, then you can grow. And then when you perform, you get visible and then opportunities come.

Anson, I also want to give you a chance if you want to. Obviously you've helped pioneer the women's game and it's changed so much since you've seen it. So how far do you think that the women's game has come and what else needs to be done in your opinion going forward?

Well, first of all, obviously what Serena and her culture has done in Holland is extraordinary. What I also appreciate is how much they've given to us. I mean, back in the old days, a lot of what we did was from the Dutch culture.

Now you're generalizing, but I think because we came and you did the wheel kerver drills, correct.

It wasn't just Korver it was the Korver stuff, which was our warm up in the off season for futsal. So yeah, we love footsolve that from the Dutch culture. But also we played the Dutch system. We played the 1343. And what was interesting as well is another thing I learned when I was being beaten to death in Zeist was when I was talking about my system, I called it the three four, three. And one of the Dutch coaches said, well, surely because of the importance of your goalkeeper in your shape, because we had to play with a goalkeeper outside the penalty box, a high goalkeeper, you're not playing a 3, 4, 3. You are playing a 1, 3, 4, 3. And so while I was over there, you know, as I mentioned, getting beaten to death in Zeist, I was learning some things from the Dutch coaches, you know, that were smashing me around the room. And one of the things I learned was about that you have to include the goalkeeper in any shape, certainly in the way we were playing. So a lot of the ideas I stole were Dutch ideas. Yes, Serena is absolutely correct. We were all in with Korver. And in the off season, Korver for us was everything. It was our warm up the entire time in the off season. But it's a great warmup. It's, you know, one ball, one player. There's no better, you know, technical player development platform than, you know, having a ball for every single player. So the Korver stuff for us, we were married to it and we loved it, the kids loved it. And then the Dutch system itself, the, you know, 1343 was right out of the Dutch system. Now, even though back then I think the Dutch played four central midfielders and my shape was the opposite. I had basically wide midfielders. Still, the similarities and things I stole from the Dutch, I mean, and it goes on and on and on. As Serena knows, one of my favorite events is every three weeks we would play a 4v4 tournament. Yeah, that's completely out of the Dutch culture. And the thing I loved about the four D4 tournaments is you have every aspect of shape in a 4v4. You've got a penetrating player high, you've got two players wide, and you have a supporting player underneath with a goalkeeper. So. And even though it's not really 4v4, if again, I were in Zeiss, I would have to say it's 5v5, because again, I've ignored the goalkeeper. And so.

But you also did it without goalkeeper. We also played with, yes, we did small fields and a wide field. So the different structure of the field made the subjective of the drill.

What a memory. Serena is absolutely right. We played narrow 4v4s where the most critical thing was penetration. We played wide 4v4s where the most critical element was width. And so Serena's spot on. So we allowed the shape of the field to dictate the tactics of the game. And so yeah, the way we taught was by playing. And so a lot of this was right out of the Dutch handbook and we had learned a lot from them. So I don't want to pretend that this is just a one way street. Of course not. We learned a lot from the Dutch. But what was interesting as well as we, the United States started to hire the Dutch coaches to impact our culture. An area where I think everyone misses in Europe is the value of the collegiate game in the United States. Because obviously all over the rest of the world they're not into the collegiate game because obviously they go straight as a 16 year old that's a quality player, signs a pro contract pretty soon and then she's with one of the big clubs in their countries and that's the route they go. I genuinely think that the trouble with then relying on like a Dutch influence in our girls player development is they miss this huge opportunity for player development that our universities give our kids. Because what we have is a massive number of players playing at a university level in the United States. So what we have is a huge player pool. Now are our player pools as good as the top teams in Europe when they bring a 16, 17, 18 year old? No, they're not. But the number of 17, 18, 19, 20 year olds that we have playing in college, playing at a high level is also very good for our national team and pro structure. Sometimes the collegiate game in the United States is undervalued when looked at internationally. So much so that now the interest in the foreign athletes coming to an American college is also at an all time high. Which is sort of counterintuitive when you think that, well, shouldn't they automatically jump into the top teams that they're playing for in Europe? Well, yeah, you can say from a player development perspective, possibly, but the top American colleges not only provide the education but also a playing experience that I think can continue to contribute to the growth even of the top European players. So I think there's a different route in Holland and in the United States to develop to an elite level. But I still think that we have learned so much from the Dutch and hopefully with what Serena is talking about, we've shared some of our ideas with them and their structure as well.

Serena, I also just want to remark on the fact that in 2016 you became the first woman to work as a coach at a Dutch professional football organization, period. And then within three years you had your team in a World cup final. So if you would just kind of tell me about the experience of becoming that first women's coach, breaking that barrier, and then all of a sudden you make this deep run into the World cup and kind of what that experience like for you.

Yeah, well, actually it's a little over exaggerating. I did the UEFA pro course and during that year I did an internship at Sparta Rotterdam with Alex Pastor was then the coach and he was open minded, which was good for me because the men's gang is not very used to women in the game. Well, when there are women in the organizations, they most are the doctor or the physiotherapist or the manager, but no technical, no coaches. Yeah, he needed to get used to me. That took one day and then he said, okay, you can come every day. So like I just said, I just knew that if I got the chance to coach a little bit, I just needed to be the best I could be. So when I got the chance, I needed to be there. That year was really good to see how the men's game goes, how the organization goes, because I always thought, well, in the men's game everything is better and higher level and. But it wasn't. I was used to that energy. I was used to the standards and in tactical, it was no problem for me to compete or to compete in discussions. I needed that to get comfortable with myself or to get confidence in those things. And then I was assistant coach of the Dutch national team. And then at Sparta they had a problem. One of their coaches got ill and he had to go out for a couple of months and because I knew everything of the club and the organization, but I was also, I can also go with the computer, with the tactics and the video analysis. They said, well, we have been thinking we need someone to help and it's for a couple of months. We made a list, but there's actually one person on the list and that's you. So can you please help us? And I said, sure, I will help you, but I, you know, I'm with the national team and after the break of the. From January, we need to concentrate on the European Championship in 2017. So this month I can help a couple of times and I really love to do that too. But then after, after a couple of Months. I need to step back again and do only the national team. That's how it works. And it was really nice. But actually, the experience of the whole year at that club with the team, that helped me very much. And the pro course helped me because I went to all the pro clubs, men's, and I went to Arsenal at the men's side. And I've seen so many things, and then I feel really ready for the next step.

So, Anson, I kind of just got to beg the question, you know, you have a player, a former player like Serena, who's now a coach. You had four former players on the US Side. So when you're watching this World cup, who are you rooting for? You know, you got coaches, players, so many. So who do you tend to cheer for? Watch. What is that like for you when you watch the World Cup?

Well, obviously, having Serena in the final was just so wonderful for me. And actually, we had five kids on that team, so we had more than four. We had five. And obviously, I have to root for the United States. I'm sorry, Serena, but.

No, I understand.

Still, I'm watching this game, and I am so proud of the way the Dutch are playing. And keep in mind, obviously, I'm watching the Dutch through the whole tournament, so it's not like the only game I watched, Serena, coach, was that final. No, I'm watching this Dutch team, and I am cheering for them wildly in every game just because, you know, Serena's in the sideline. And then I thought it was so cool whenever, you know, the camera would, you know, show the bench and Serena would be there looking very formal and very serious.

I am still.

Yep, she looks very serious. And I loved it. I mean, I absolutely loved it, because, you know, when she played for me, I mean, yeah, that was a serious side to her. But, you know, a lot of the time when I watched her playing for me, she had a smile on her face. But, no, no, no, not on that Dutch sideline. There is this serious. And, you know, and I just thought it was great. So, you know, I followed her team right through that World cup, and, yes, I was so proud they got to the final. And obviously, I'm rooting for the United States, but in every game, I thought the Dutch just did so many things well. And I think Mihtema, you know, may end up breaking the national team goals for all time. I mean, this young player, I mean, she's young, and the number of international goals she scored already. But also watching her score for Arsenal, I mean. Oh, my gosh, just what an extraordinary player. And she wasn't the only one. I'm looking through every line and just every line that on that Dutch team was quality and they competed, which I loved, because, you know what I'm hoping is Serena got that from us. So I'm sort of watching this thinking, surely some of that stuff is coming from us. It's sort of like a proud father watching his daughter compete. And so for me, all these things are going through my mind. But, Natalie, I have to tell the truth, and I know Serena appreciates this. But yes, I was rooting for the United States in that final.

Yeah, I totally understand. Wouldn't be good if you would have been cheering for us. But, you know, it's funny you say that you watch the Dutch and they were. I think. I also think we're really competitive in this team. Everyone really wants to win, but we also want to show that we have good players and we can compete as a team and we play as a team and we can play football as a team very well. You just said a couple of minutes ago that the Dutch team, they're fit too. In earlier years, we weren't as fit. So when you're not fit enough, you can't do the things in soccer you want to do, so you can't execute the things you want to do. Our Dutch players still think that we weren't fit enough in the tournament? I don't think so. I think we were fit enough. I just think we need to bring our game just to the next level. So there's this thing between is it fitness or is it technical, tactical things we need to do better and if it doesn't work, we're not fit enough. But I don't think. I think it's a combination of. I think if we are composed enough, if we're relaxed enough and fit enough, and I think we are fit enough and just execute a little better, make just little better choices, then we can go to the next level.

Anson, you claim in the chapter that a lot of coaches have a specific bias. So when youth national teams and college coaches need to fill roster spots, they typically favor players from soccer hotbeds or very well known areas. But you also suggest that it's possible for players who come from less popular areas to still get attention and be recognized by these coaches. So how would you suggest a player go about that? Whether trying to get recruited collegiately, trying to get national attention?

Yeah. So the way we look at our recruiting is actually, and Serena will appreciate this and maybe Holland's got a similar sort of regionalism in the United States. Based on what part of the country you recruit in, you're going to get a certain kind of player. So she was speaking about, you know, these technical, tactical areas to improve in. I mean, that's classic Southern California. So if you look at a typical American roster, because the weather down there is extraordinary, and in areas of extraordinary weather in the United States, you know, people flock there and then they're playing outdoors year round. And so the typical player in Southern California is very skillful and very tactical, and that separates them. If you go to the Northeast, into New England, they're basically playing in the snow and the mud. And so these sorts of players have a different sort of, you know, fighting mentality. And if the weather is horrible on that day, they don't even care. They're going to figure out a way to win. They're going to gut it out. If you go to the south, that's also a very hardened kind of player, a combative player. If you go to the Midwest, basically, it's sort of a big, strong player. So based on what part of the country you come from, there's a certain style that becomes attractive to a roster. If I'm doing my best job in recruiting, I am recruiting from all four regions of the United States because what you want is you want all these qualities based on position. And so my six, my defensive midfielder. Yeah, I want a big, you know, strong girl from the Midwest that can win headers and smash into people and, you know, intimidate. But I want my sevens and my elevens, my outside front runners to be sort of the Southern Californians that can rip you up 1v1. I want, you know, one of my center backs to be, you know, maybe a kid from the South. It's also a very, very determined and competitive. And then at least one or two of these New England mudders that can play in any conditions, and all of a sudden it's snowing out and a big smile ends up in the girl's face and she can't wait to start playing because it's snowing, you know, so I want all these different things. So based on who you are and where you're from, there's going to be a place for you in the American collegiate pantheon, I promise you. And I'm wondering, Serena, is this the case in Holland? Because I lived in Belgium and there's a complete difference between a Walloon and a flam in everything. So in Holland, are there regional differences in your soccer game? Or is it just too small a country to have any differences?

I think it's too small a country. And we don't have two languages in Belgium, they have also two languages. Now. We're very small country. I think our region, we're about as big as North Carolina, I think, so it's really small. But you're talking also about physical things, but also about characters. And you can, you know, when you're. I'm from the west, I'm from the coast, and we. They call us. Like you said, all the Dutch are. But we. We sometimes big mouth.

So, you know, we're very direct. And in the eastern country or southeast, they're not that direct. So sometimes you have to. Well, especially as a coach, you need to know who you're talking to, because you can be very direct. And also in the team, if you have those characters, you can just some point them out. Are they from the west of the country or the east with some differences? Of course, it's not part of the countries where the bigger women come from or the smaller or the more. The Dutch are pretty much adventurous. I think that's in the whole country. That's part of our culture, too. We can discuss about anything. We call it a polder model. But it also makes us strong because when you discuss, you think yourself about things. And we have so many players that if you say you have to do, you have to go to the right. You say, why? Okay, what's the purpose for that? That's kind of typical for Dutch, which is when you have to make your own choices in the game. Yeah, yeah.

That helps you along those same lines. Serena, in the chapter, Anston kind of mentions how the training of a youth player tends to get pretty serious when they're joining an ECNL team or an Olympic development team in the US So I know in Europe, youth sometimes looks very different. So I'm curious, at what point in a young boy or girl's soccer career do they really start to take their training seriously? And what does that next step look like?

Yeah, well, if you go from the youth to the senior football, first of all, we have mixed football.

So when I played, it was illegal and I did it illegally. But now from 6 to 12, it's all mixed. You can have mixed football, and I think that's really good because boys and girls are kind of the same in their. In their development, in their growth physically. And when you come to the puberty, then the changes come physically, but also social, emotionally. That's what in the beginning of this Talk. We were like, girls should challenge themselves. You can compete. And I think that's also an advantage of mixed football. Treat the girls just as the same as the boys. I can get really angry when a girl falls. And some say, oh, are you okay? When a boy falls, you say, okay, get up. Treat them the same way. And then from. From around 11, 12 years, then the Dutch Federation, we have these regional teams, so that's the first time we can get selected or recruited. And then they train sometimes with the federation. Then around then, now some professional clubs, they start training. Also some younger girls from around 13, 14 years, and they train at their own club team. We don't have a school system. We have a club system. So after you go to schools, you go to the club, and there you train. So that's totally different than in the US and then when you're good, you can compete in a selected team from the federation. And from the under 15, we start, like, as a kind of the national teams. Then we still have mixed paths. So we have. Girls can play with the boys as long as they want. So if they're in a good situation, they can stay there at a high level. But from around 16 years, you can also go to a women's team at a pro club. And then you come in this varsity environment and you have the national teams. So all together, you go to school. Some schools have training sessions, but they don't have a team. So in the morning, like the school that I was a teacher, that my husband is a teacher now, he does those classes. So in Tuesday and Thursday morning, the girls and boys come in, they train, and then they go to class. And then in the afternoon, sometimes they have a training session with the team, or sometimes with the federation, or sometimes the next day.

I know, Anson, the development of some of your players, I've just heard them all say, you know, we played with boys when we were younger or, you know, something of this sort, too. So I don't know if you want to note on, you know, development and the stories you've heard from your girls and how they developed, whether playing with boys or jumping age groups, too, because I know that's also mentioned in the chapter.

Yeah. So, Serena, I appreciate what you said about in Holland, as long as a girl can continue to compete with a boy, she's allowed to play with them. That's fabulous, and I wish we had that philosophy in this country. But it's sort of interesting. For that first World cup, when I was the US Women's national coach, the US didn't really put that much money into developing their national team. So we had this philosophy of basically self coaching. And the main platform for self coaching was playing one on one. And who would the girls play one on one with? They would play one on one against their boyfriends. And of course, Karen Jennings was dating Jim Gabara. Jim Gabara was the captain of the US Futsal team. This is a great American male player. So when Karen Jennings would come into a camp after playing 1v1 against Jim for the last three or four months, holy cow. She could beat any of the girls because she'd been playing against Jim the whole time. So for us, we've always endorsed, you know, playing against boys as long as possible. But I loved what you said. I love that you're saying that in Holland, it's actually a part of the philosophy for the girl to play with the boys as long as possible. And I absolutely love that. I am sure that's one reason your culture on the girls and women side is so good. And I wish we had that in the United States.

Yeah, but you have to keep working on. You have to keep telling people at the club teams why we are doing that and that the developments, boys and girls from the age to 6, from 6 to around 12 is the same now. The puberty over the years has come earlier, so. And girls come into the puberty a little earlier. So then changes come. But that's also especially social, emotionally, in the. In the beginning, you have to be aware of that. So you need people that you know that are educated in that part to tell the story, to inform people why we are doing otherwise. You think, okay, we have enough girls, we have eight girls now, so we can make a team, put them all together. But then you have a girl that is, you know, she just likes to watch a little bit in the game. And you have a girl that's really competitive, like we are or we were, that doesn't fit. Students play together in a team. You should look at the age, at the ambition, at the talent, and then you bring them together. And when you have just an amount of players, boys and girls, so see it as players, not boys and girls, and you have 30, then you can let them play, but at their own level.

And just to wrap up Serena, I wanted to give you a chance to kind of describe your transition from player under Anson in the Netherlands to now a national coach of your home national team. And then Anson following Serena, if you want to remark on her career and include any comments, you have as well. But Serena, I'd love to hear about the player to coach transition.

That's a transition of 30 years.

Now. Well, I, you know, I've been interested in coaching and teaching. I wanted to be a teacher when I was 10 years old. So when I was 10, I already said I'm going to do physical education. So I've always been interested in coaching and working with people. And I really love playing soccer, but I loved all sports. So I did. I did a lot of sports, but always soccer was the first sport. So I did that as long as possible. And when I got pregnant, I had to quit. And in the Netherlands, there was not. You didn't earn any money with soccer at that time. So I needed to quit and I wouldn't have made it anyway. I wasn't good enough anymore and I wasn't fit enough anymore. So then I went out for just a couple of years. We got two kids, pretty close to each other. And then after, yeah, after a while, I. I felt I missed the game. I missed being with the people. So I started playing a little bit and I started coaching the youth again. Then when I quit playing, I went full time. I quit my job as a physical education teacher because I got the chance to be a professional coach. And in the beginning, I felt like a soccer player. I just wanted to jump in and play and had so much fun playing. But then you get a little older and in the beginning I was a little restless and now I'm peaceful and I look very serious. I am very serious. Some people think that I don't have fun, but I have a lot of fun coaching. But when the game starts, I'm concentrated and it looks very angry. But yes, I have a lot of fun. And now I just feel like a coach trying to connect people. That's the thing that I really like to do. And that's what I also. Yeah, maybe I should finish that take from unc that it was like. Felt like family. I want to care each other. And there's just, you know, I remember some things. I remember so good. Tracy Bates at the year I went there, she, you know, we had to run the coupon. She was running it twice and she came back. So come on, let's go. And I will never, ever forget that I would never see. She. She turned her ACL in that year and I was just so emotional for her because she was such a great person and I felt so bad for her, but still she was positive. And then, you know, that people took care of Dino, took me for a vacation. Everyone went out for A vacation said, okay, you by yourself, you come with me. We go to my family. They take care of you. And that's not just coaching. That's just taking care of people.

Yeah. Serena, thank you for everything you've shared, because we haven't changed. I mean, for us, it is. It's still about connection. It's about, you know, how you connect with the kids that you're playing alongside of. The philosophy going into the NCAA tournament is still, you know, playing for the people around you. The cliche we use is playing for each other. That's, you know, still the case of, you know, what we believe in. Obviously, we believe in competing, but we believe right at the end of the competition for everyone to still be friends, which in some women's cultures is difficult. It's very difficult to compete. The things you were chatting about earlier, about where you are emotionally, about your growth, and can you compete and still connect with these people following the session? And then the other thing, Serena, you're absolutely right. When we had you on our team for that one year, when, of course, you helped us win a national championship, there were smiles on your face. And that's why I love it when they pan the bench, because, holy cow, do you look serious during a game. And of course, for me, it's a contrast from what I remember because I know who you are, and I know you enjoy all of these different things. But, of course, there are environments for you to get serious. And I just want you to know, Serena, how all of us are so incredibly proud of you. Please, one of these days, come back, stay with me and Melissa for a couple days. Spend a couple days with Dino and Wendy. Spend a week with us in Chapel Hill. Let us take care of you. Maybe we'll take you to the beach or something as well. But please figure out a way to come back and visit, because we would certainly love to have you come back and see this place again.

Thank you so much. That's nice. Well, actually, my daughter, she says, why don't we ever go back there? She's into soccer.

Well, here's the idea. Send your daughter to camp. While she's in camp, hang out with me and Melissa and Dino and Wendy, and we'll have a good time while your daughter's in camp for four or five days, and then take her back to Holland. Because, by the way, Lucy, bronze into our camp for three years in a row before coming to uncle. Yes. So this will be a route into her ascension onto the Dutch national team. We can be a part of her route in. So Serena, please come back. Bring your family. You can stay with us. We'd love to have you. So please know our home is open to you.

Thank you very much. Well, and if you're in the Netherlands, it's the same for us. You can just always visit us with. Such a pleasure to talk to you again.

No Serena, I've enjoyed it. Thank you.

A great conversation with you both today. But that was Serena Wegman, former UNC player and current Netherlands Women's National Team Head Coach. If you like this show, one way you can support our work is to subscribe to this podcast on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen and leave us a rating and review as well. This show was edited and produced by Creative Allies. If you're looking for information on full service podcast production, head on over to creative allies.com I'm Natalie Boddy and we'll see you next time on the Vision of a Champion Podcast.

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