Lucy Bronze: Chapter 10 - Stepping Up to College Soccer

There's a perception, you know, that being competitive is not really a good thing, especially when I was younger. For a girl to be competitive, it's like, no, a girl should be nice. I was just not that girl. I needed to be competitive. I wanted to win at everything. And I'm still the same now at England camp for girls. I have to beat them at everything I do. And I think the day that I turned up to Carolina was the day that I realized that actually it was okay to be like that and that was normal. I remember quite vividly having to do a 1v1 drill against Copenhagen. And I was this little 17 year old coming in and we did it to the big goal and I was thinking, oh my God, I'm playing against the best player in the team. It's crazy because this is over 10 years ago, but I kept it to 1:1. I was thinking, yeah, I'm doing good. And then she just absolutely killed me. Like 10, two or something crazy. That always instilled in my head that I got beat 10, 2 on this 1v1 game. I still think about it now.

You're listening to the Vision of a Champion Podcast with Anson Dorrance, eight time coach of the year, 22 time national champion coach of the 1991 Women's World Cup Team hall of Famer, leader and mentor to so many in the soccer community. On this podcast, Anson brings on players and coaches to discuss what it means to be a champion. The drive, the passion, the desire, and, yes, the stories.

Here's your host, Natalie Boddy.

Hey, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of the Vision of a Champion Podcast. I'm your host, Natalie Boddy, a color analyst for the Tar Heel Women's soccer program and the North Carolina Couraged. For today's episode, we will have Anson build on our last episode about the competitive cauldron by examining the measuring tool for skill that is paired with the cauldron, the competitive matrix. Here today to speak on her experience with UNC and the competitive matrix is Lucy Bronze. Lucy Browns played at UNC for the 2009 season, coming over to Chapel Hill after impressing Anson Dorrance during multiple soccer camps. Lucy became the first British player ever to win an NCAA championship with the Tar Heels, and she was named as soccer America's All American Freshman Team. Her success has definitely not stopped after college and following that 2009 season, Lucy returned to England to continue her professional soccer career, playing in the FA Women's Super League. She has won three league championships with Liverpool and Manchester City, respectively. And has won the WSL cup and Women's cup with Manchester City. She moved to the top French women's league in 2017 playing for Olympique Lyonnais. And since 2017, Olympique Lyonnais has won the league title twice, France's top cup competition and the UEFA Women's Champions League title twice. On top of what I have already mentioned, Lucy has been named PFA Women's Player of the Year twice, England Player of the Year twice, BBC Women Football Player of the Year twice, UEFA Women's Player of the Year award, and a countless number of best 11's so with Lucy joining the podcast, we also must highlight her college coach, Anson Dorrance, and have him speak on her experience and how she succeeded in the competitive matrix that he cultivated for women's soccer. With 22 national titles, Anson Dorrance knows a thing or two about crafting elite players and has thrived in competition. We're eager to hear about the creation and growth of the competitive matrix that is so important to Carolina women's soccer today. Welcome to you both. So Lucy, I just wanted to start with you obviously being an international player. I just was curious to hear a brief summary of your experience at Carolina and how did you end up at UNC in the first place?

Google, funny enough. No, But I think, you know, when I was 11 years old in England, back then there was a ban on girls playing with boys. I'd always played with boys. I didn't know any different. I didn't know that there was such thing as a women's team or women's internationals. I never saw the difference. So, yeah, that band kind of happened. My parents were never, they were always into my childhood and me being happy. They were never really into the football. And that clicked in my head, in my mum's head, right? I need my. I need the best for my daughter. She always wanted the best of me. So she literally googled best place for women's football and up pop North Carolina. And that was the year that she took me to my first soccer camp. You know, she wanted to kind of broaden my horizon, but being in England, where I think we was behind the times a little bit. So we went there in the summer to do the soccer camp. I was only 12 years old. I think I was actually too young to maybe be there. But I remember my mum told me at the end of the soccer camp that Anton had been up to speak to them and said, you got to bring daughter back when she's like, when she finished school. And she's 16, 17, 18, and we'll give her a scholarship to come to UNC. So my mum was like, right, there's your future sorted kind of thing. So, 16, 17, there was a program in England, their kind of version of the kind of the American college scholarship, where there was one university that took all the English players to develop them as footballers. And funny enough, I got rejected because I wasn't good enough.

Yeah.

So off we went to North Carolina to do the soccer camp and meet up with Anton again. And he was like, yeah, let's get it sorted, come back next year and you can start college, obviously, after pasture exam to get in. But kind of got that out the way and I was off to North Carolina in the summer of 2009. Yeah.

Anson, I'd love to hear kind of your version of how when you first saw Lucy at your soccer camp and just how that came to be as well.

Well, first of all, I want to ask Lucy, was that College of Loughborough.

Yeah.

Where they gathered.

Yeah.

So, yeah, Loughborough, because we went over there with our teams of. On our international tours to play against them. So I know exactly what you're talking about.

Yeah.

Let me tell you about Lucy. We love Lucy. I mean, obviously, you know, her accent gave a wonderful credibility for our game. We loved having her in camp. And I think what happened. And Lucy, correct me if I'm wrong, I think what they did is the family just dumped Lucy in camp and then went to the North Carolina beaches. Is that what happened? And they came back and picked you up on the way home, or did they actually watch you in camp? I can't remember anymore.

I think they did a bit of both. I had a younger sister with me as well, so my mum had to take her off to entertain her. But like I said, my mum was. She didn't really understand. I mean, you guys call it soccer, I should say soccer. My mum really didn't. Wasn't really into the game and didn't really take pleasure from. Although she loved watching me and watching me succeed, she never took to the excitement of watching soccer games and watching soccer training at that time. I mean, it's changed now. She's obsessed. But, yeah, at the time, I think she was probably in and out of the camps. Yeah.

We had the impression that we were babysitting Lucy as the family went to the North Carolina beaches. And by the way, it was a pleasure babysitting her because every time she came back to camp, she kept getting better. Yeah. We thought she had a huge future. In fact, I even made some calls. And I remember speaking to Lucy during one camp and I asked her, I said, lucy, are you interested in playing for England? And she says, oh my gosh, it's my dream. And I was thinking, well, you know, I think you can play for England. And she didn't believe me. And I said, well, I've got a couple of friends. And she kept saying, no, no, no. No one comes up to Sunderland to watch us play, so, you know, you're not going to have a chance to get anyone to watch. I said, no, no, no, trust me, I know some people, you know, they're going to certainly look at you. So I called Emma Hayes actually and said, Emma, you know, who can I get to watch? This kid who just came to my camp because she is extraordinarily special. I think you guys ought to look at her. And then, of course, she started to get some invitations into the England youth teams and. And then, of course, the rest was history. But we loved having her in camp. We thought it gave our camp credibility just because her accent was the game. She's absolutely right. We offered her a scholarship. So thank you, Lucy. And then, lest we forget, she was responsible for getting us into the national Championship final. We were playing against Notre Dame and in our system, she was a right midfielder in a 3, 4, 3. And she got the ball in this one run, just penetrated through everyone laid it across the six and Negara finished from inside six and we won 1:0. So in case I haven't thanked you recently, Lucy, thank you for that 2009 championship.

And then I obviously would love to get your perspective, Lucy, on the type of training at Carolina and how it differed from England. But, Anson, first I want you to just kind of lay out the competitive matrix in comparison to the cauldron. And just for the viewers and listeners, kind of tell them about what exactly it entails.

Yeah, basically, we believe in recording everything in practice and we record literally everything. We make everything a competition. We post it on a bulletin board so everyone knows exactly where they stand and everything. Every time we play a 5v5, 6v6, 7v7, we have teams picked and then they play against each other and we have winners and losers and all this is recorded. We have five different one on one matrixes. Because I genuinely believe that to become an elite player, you have to have the ability to beat someone off the dribble, but also stop someone off the dribble. So a lot of the stuff we were doing, even heading duels, were a part of the matrix. So for us, we're trying to measure every aspect of the game, and we want every kid to know exactly where she stands within the competitive cauldron so that she can basically learn to compete harder and better. So that was the philosophy we had. We still have it, of course. That's what we use to try to drive people to their potential.

So then, Lucy, how did that training kind of affect what you did back home? How did you grow within it? What did you, like, dislike, you know? How did you evolve at Carolina?

Well, I think I've always had that competitive edge anyway. I think that's been instilled me from the day I was born. Having a big brother, it was always I wanted to beat him. Didn't matter that he was older, that he was a boy. I needed to beat him. And I feel like I still maybe is now in England as well. In England, it's or there's a perception, you know, that being competitive is not really a good thing. Especially when I was younger. For a girl to be competitive, it's like, no, a girl should be nice. And I was just not that girl. I needed to be competitive. I wanted to win everything. And I'm still the same now. At England camp, the girls, I think it annoys them a lot that I have to beat them everything I do. And I think the day that I turned up to Carolina was the day that I realized that actually it was okay to be like that and that was normal. I remember the likes of Megan Klingenberg was super competitive. Everything. Ash and Harris, they always used to scream at each other, and that was who I wanted to be. But I felt like I never really had that sort of exposure or that sort of role model playing in England because it wasn't really accepted that I was as competitive as what I am. So I think for me, that was always a. The kind of a change in point in my career where I could have easily not gone to America and just fallen back into okay, it's not cool to be competitive, just be normal like everybody else. I think that's probably the thing that pushed me on and pushes me past a lot of people now is actually being okay with that, which is crazy because I know to Americans it's normal to be competitive. But I think in. In England and in Europe, it's a different sort of edge. You know, you don't really speak about it, but I can still remember doing those drills. I remember quite vividly having to do a 1v1 drill against Tobin Heath. And I mean, she's like, was she four years older than me? And I was this little 17 year old coming in, and we did it to the big goals. And I was thinking, oh, my God, I'm playing against the best player on the team. And I kept it. I kept it to. I always remember this. It's crazy because this is over 10 years ago, but I kept it to 1:1. I was thinking, yeah, I'm doing good. And then she just absolutely killed me. Like 10, 10, 2 or something crazy. And I think that was that always instilled in my head that I got beat 102 on this 1v1 game. I still think about it now.

And so, Anson, I wanted to give you the chance to. Do you want to add anything that you experienced with Lucy in that setting and players in general? How can it kind of vary player to player in the matrix and the cauldron?

Well, first of all, Lucy's, I guess, incubation was really cool because of who we had. So she's right. I mean, we had a lot of the US Full national team that was training in there with her. So what she saw is she saw these great players. She matched up against them, and I think they all improved each other because, you know, steel sharpens steel. And so the fact that Lucy's in there was some of the best of all time. Because the other cool thing about Tobin, and I tell this Tobin story all the time, Tobin is so versatile. We would play these 4v4 tournaments, and because the way we allowed the players to draft, Tobin would always have last pick. So we've got eight 4v4 teams. And because of Tobin's status on the team, we wanted her to play with all the weaker players to try to compete in this 4v4. Well, in every 4v4 tournament, Tobin's team won her senior year, which meant she got last pick. So she didn't get any of the best players on her 4v4 team. But because she can play the point striker in the 4v4 or the flank, you know, midfielder in the 4v4 or the defender, she would figure out where the holes were on her team, put herself in that position, then figure out a way to win. And so Lucy was in with a remarkable collection of future US Full internationals. Yeah, Klingenberg was another one. Ashlyn Harrison. Honestly, if Casey Nogueira had decided this was important to her, as Lucy knows, she would have made it as well. So what was really cool about the incubation period for Lucy at UNC were the caliber of players that were involved in that team, we had elite players all over the place. She was clearly one of them. Lucy was one of them. But they all sharpened each other. So that competition was with that whole crew that ended up winning for us in 2015 and more recently in 2019. So those are the young women that she trained and played with.

Hey everyone, we're going to take a quick break here to tell you about our sponsor, soccer.com Anson has been coaching for 44 years and it seems like soccer.com has been around nearly that long as well. It's pretty close as a soccer.com business has been family run and based in Hillsborough, NC since 1984. If you're a player or a coach who needs soccer shoes, equipment, gear, whatever it may be, do what the pros do. Head on over to soccer.com this is Dean Linke.

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So, speaking of those national team players, Lucy, I want to ask you now that obviously your time at Carolina is done and you had the chance to train with some of those players and now compete on the world stage, what is it like to compete against former teammates at unc? What do you think about the edge as Anson described that gave you an international competition?

Well, it's funny because I enjoy playing against the US because it's so competitive, but I never get to play like 1v1 against any of the other girls that I actually went to college with. But I think international competition, for me personally, it's given me a huge edge that, that competitiveness being on a team that plays against the US and knowing what you know, I play in France. I know what the French girls say, I know what the German girls say about them. And it's always like they're so competitive, like they just run through wall for everything and, and I feel like I was able to take that. I think that's probably what I've been able to instill more in the England team. And I think it's, yeah, like I said before, it's something that the career path that I've took, that was one of the most invaluable things that I probably took from it is that competitive edge. And I think everybody that plays with me kind of says it now, but internationally, it definitely helps. I mean, it's hard when you're playing against 11 of them.

So, Anson, I also just want to prompt this question to you. We talk about the cauldron and today specifically the matrix. How did these come to be? I mean, obviously at the beginning, this was something that now it's been adopted by other coaches, but it was something that was very specific to you and your training and accounted for a lot of your success. So how did that come to be in Carolina women's soccer?

Well, honestly, like Lucy, I've always been very competitive. And it's sort of interesting. And I shared this, I think recently. I'm a fan of Rachel Maddow. And I was watching her show and all of a sudden she said something that I thought was extraordinarily profound. She said, I. And she had this expert on. I can't remember if it was a, you know, an expert in, you know, this COVID 19 thing, but she brought this expert on. And then that expert asked her, said, you know, Rachel, what are you an expert in? And she said something very interesting. She said, I am an expert in reading comprehension. And I was thinking, that's extraordinary. She's an expert in reading comprehension. But the more I thought about it, the more I liked it because she always explains everything so well to me. And I was thinking about what I'm an expert in. And honestly, there are, you know, you know, millions of people all over the world that know as much or more about the game than I do. So I don't think that really separates me as a coach. And then all of a sudden, it dawned on me. I am an expert in competition. That's my expertise. My expertise is competition. When I was an undergraduate at UNC, I competed in intramurals. We started an 11 year intramural dynasty in Teague Dorm. When I started coaching the UNC women's college team, you know, we're still dynastic. The women's national team is dynastic. And the fingerprints of competition are what I think is the margin. And Lucy has described it already. So for me, that's what I think I am good at. How did I steal ideas? My ideas were stolen from Dean Smith, honestly, watching him and his practices and watching him record everything in practice. So I stole his ideas and soccer ized them. That's it. So what's my expertise? I am an expert in competition. You can give me any game and I will create a competitive matrix out of it. That's what I think I've contributed.

So then, Lucy, I also want to ask, do you have any favorite moments or even least favorite moments? Maybe both from training this way at Carolina, Just any memories that just stick out to you?

That one with Tobin was my least favorite. I don't know. I had an. I can remember another one when I. I think it was the first week of training and the reason why I said Ashlyn Harris's name before. I remember I was on her team for like a small sided game and I did something wrong. Like I didn't pass the ball hard enough. I don't know, I can't remember what it was I did wrong. But I just remember she screamed at me as if she was about to strangle me. And I was like, oh, my God, I just give the ball away. Calm down. But it was the scariest thing. And I never. But the funniest thing is I never made another mistake when I was on her team because I was that petrified of her. But I mean, pretty much every other memory was a good memory anyway. Like I said, I thrive off of competition even. Although I hate getting beat. Having something to strive for the next time and the next time is something that motivates me. It still motivates me now. And I think, you know, people say, why did you move to that club? I moved to that club because I wanted to win something that everybody else has won. Why did you go there? I wanted to win that as well. I want. I constantly just want to win the next thing because somebody else has done it. I want to do that as well. And I think that some, like I said before, that's something that I learned at North Carolina, that it's okay to be like that. And it's actually the best thing to be like that in sport. No matter whether it's individual or team sport, being competitive is the best edge you can have. And it's funny because I always say it now when I win, like if there's an individual award. And I think it's crazy because I think, you know, I'm not the most technical player, you know, like Tobin is. Got so much technical ability. I don't think I'm the most technical. I've got decent, you know, above. I'm technical and vision and everything else. But the edge that I do have is that competitiveness because I want to beat Everybody at every fitness, every strength thing, every speed thing. So it makes me the fastest and makes me the fittest. It makes me the strongest, makes me work harder than everybody else, because I just have that. That I want to constantly beat other people. It's not because I'm the best football player, just because I'm better being competitive.

So then, speaking of that competitive nature that you already had, and obviously Anson helped develop at Carolina, I'm just curious, in your other professional teams or the England national team, have they had a similar training environment? And if it's one that you brought to other players from unc, how did you go about doing that?

I think they got different environments. I think kind of up and down. Funny enough, I did get told maybe four or five years ago to not be as competitive because I'm setting too high a standards for other people. And then my reply was kind of, well, that's why we're not winning. But I think it's something that. Especially as I've gotten older now, you know, I'm touching 30 now, so I'm kind of a leader in a lot of teams that are playing. But I enjoy that because it means that I get to bring that personal style that I have. Although, like I said, I think it annoys some of the English girls that I play with, but I think I just want to bring the best out in them. I want to make England a more competitive team because I think if we get that edge to match the other top teams, there's no reason why we can't then overturn more teams who can't compete, beat the USA more consistently. But I think in club respects, it's very different, alas, because I think in England, the English league is quite competitive. People go hell for leather. But in the French league, it's in the sun and everybody's got their feet open. I mean, the girls I play with are the best players in the world, but their competitive edge has nothing to do with fitness. And I think that's maybe the edge that they're missing. But they're so competitive with the football, with the soccer ball. But, yeah, with fitness, with gym. You know, at unc, it was everything. It was the speed, it was the fitness, and it was the duels, and it was the shooting, and it was everything else. It was all the bases covered. But in France, it's only the only thing, the only things that the football is really worth doing. And I do like it. It's enjoyable. But I think that's maybe where they're losing their Competitive edge.

So, Anson, I want to give you a chance to comment on that if you'd like. And then I also, just for the other coaches out there that are reading this, thinking about the cauldron and the matrix, have you ever had a resistant player to these training styles? And if so, is it kind of a mental block? Is it a mindset thing? And how have you worked with that previously?

Well, you know, if they don't compete, they don't play. It's not complex. And so I love what Lucy's sharing, because we're going to put the most competitive kids on the field. And the first, I guess, rule for us is you have to defend. And what I love about my kids and Lucy is an extraordinary example of this. I mean, her ability to do everything is off the charts. But what I love is she takes every defending moment seriously. And what's kind of interesting about people that defend is defending is not a talent, it's a decision. And anyone can defend effectively if they just concentrate and compete. And if they take physical risks and they go after it, the skill set, you know, when Lucy was talking about Tobin, oh, my gosh, that takes years of investment and time. And, you know, the ball mastery is a forever investment, but the defensive thing is a decision. You got to make a decision that you're going to compete with someone defensively, which means to get in their face, to challenge 50, 50 balls, to, you know, basically work yourself to death, to try to close them down and make it hard for them. And so for us to get on the field, you have to defend. And the thing I loved about Lucy right out of the gate is she was competitive. And what I knew is she was going to certainly defend for me, which is why we invested in her. So those kids that don't compete, Natalie, don't play. It's not complex. And here's what I know. I know if they decided to compete, they have the talent to play. But if they can't, check that box, as Lucy knows, we don't play them. And you know the famous Bobby Knight quote, you know, there's no better coach than the bench, so they're on the bench. If you want to get on the field, you got to compete, you've got to defend. And so then they've got to make a decision. They can sit there on the bench the rest of their life, or they can say, all right, you know what? That's it. I'm going to defend. And then with my talent, if I defend, I'll have a chance to play And I will play them, as Lucy knows, you know, we've tried to play between 18 and 22 players a game. I mean, in Europe, to think of that substitution pattern, they would think this is insane. But no, we play everyone. You might play just five minutes a half, but if you play exceptionally well and the tag team partner view doesn't play as well the next game you'll get six minutes a half. So there's even a competition for playing time with the starter and the reserve. And so for me, it all comes down to will you compete, will you defend? And if the answer is no and no, then you will not play. Nothing personal, you're just not going to play. I mean, you know, I'm going to celebrate your, you know, 3.8 grade point average and your wonderful character, but you're just not going to get on the field.

Lucy, going off of your development using this cauldron, your time at UNC and internationally, when we have such a highly decorated player as yourself on the podcast, I always like to ask, has there been a standout teaching moment in your career? Obviously it is not yet over a teaching moment, a most memorable moment. Something that just sort of was definitive in your eyes, in your career so far.

I think I had one. A moment always sticks out in my career was funny enough, I started my career at the senior national team at left sided centre half, which centre back, which is quite funny for people who know me because my left foot's terrible. But I fight for my spotted right back, which is, you know, people look at me now and think, why did she ever play a center back? But it was because there was another girl that was playing. And I remember the 2015 World Cup. I was fighting for my spot, got the spot. We was playing on our knockout game against Norway. England never had, never ever, ever in the history of women's soccer won a knockout game, which is crazy to think now because everybody expects us to get to like a semi final or a final now, but we'd never won a knockout game. And I was starting and I had a awful first half. I was terrible. I was thinking, no, I'm not supposed to be here. And then that was the same game that I ended up scoring the goal that took us through. And I think that goal, I've scored many more now after it where I think, yeah, I can do that. But at the time, I'd never done anything like that in my entire life. And now I've just scored a goal in the World cup and sent England throughout knockout stages. It was Just like a list of 10 things that just kind of ticked off all in one goal. And that was the point where I thought, yeah, like, I can. I can be one of the best. I deserve to be here. I'm gonna play for England. I'm playing the World Cup. And what I. That was the moment that I think on the outside, my career changed as well because people knew my name. But on the inside, to me, that. That was a moment that really changed. I'd fought for that spot for years just to play at right back. And then I finally had it, and I did something that I thought I've just put my mark on that is my spot, and do not now take it off me ever again.

And then, Lucy, I also have just sort of a fun question for you. In doing our research on our end, we actually saw on Wikipedia that they have your name as Lucia Roberta Tough. Bronze is tough actually in your name because we are curious. Or is that just Wikipedia having fun with, you know, styling you as a player?

No, that's genuinely my name. My mum's English and my dad's Portuguese, so my mum's maiden name is Tough. And my father being Portuguese, when you're born, you have your first name, your second name, your mum's maiden name, and then your dad's surname. So altogether, that's how that came up with. So Tough is my middle name. People say Tough by name, Tough by nature. I get that a few times. It just happens to be a great coincidence that. Yeah, although my surname Bronze is not. Is not so good because I get too many bronze, silver and gold jokes played on that one. But, yeah, the tough one. I like owning up to that one. Well, awesome.

Well, Anson, I also just want to invite you to share any other moments about Lucy's career that you would like to, or any. Anything to just summarize her as a player and when she was in your hands as well.

Yeah, well, obviously, you know, we love having her at unc. She was wonderful. And not just as a player. We just liked her as a person. We also loved her in camp. But there were some moments that I was just so extraordinarily proud. One of them was actually in the 2015 World Cup. And I can't remember Lucy, but you certainly will. What was that great strike you had? In my opinion, it was the goal of the tournament, and I just wanted that to be the goal of the tournament. And damned if, you know, Carli Lloyd doesn't score one for the midsplunt to erase the goal of the tournament. Because Lucy went forward and hit this firecracker into an upper corner.

Oh, I know exactly what you're talking about. I was there to watch as a youth player, so I definitely saw it.

So, Lucy, that was fantastic. Who was that against? Because it was also a very important goal. Because that was the goal of the tournament until, you know, obviously in the World cup final of frigging. Carly hits that thing for the mid strike.

That was against. That's the game that I was talking about. That's the goal.

Okay, okay, that's good.

You can first. And it's funny because we played them then. And then we played them last year in the World cup. And then before the game, everyone's like, is he gonna score a wonder goal against Norway again? I said, no, I'm a right back. I don't score goals. I don't score goals. And then what do I do in, like the second half against Norway in the World cup again? Ball gets pulled back. And I do, like, almost an identical kind of strike. It was.

And one of them was with your left foot, right. Wasn't one a lefty? Or were they both right footed?

I think they're both right footed.

Oh, they would. Okay, okay, okay.

He built me up too much.

But the other thing I absolutely loved is her accolades as an outside back. To be considered one of the greatest players in the world as an outside back is incredibly challenging. And so for her to gain this kind of recognition as a right back, where, you know, usually the accolades go to the nines or the tens, and for the right back to gain her kind of recognition is what I think is truly extraordinary in her career, certainly in this last World cup, but also in general, for her to be always in the mix for the Player of the Year in all the environments she competes in, I think that's to her credit as well. And obviously, Phil Neville, who's also an outside back, I think would certainly support a fellow outside back and knows the difficulty of the position, but also Lucy's achievements within it. But let's face it, her recognition is certainly beyond Phil Neville's support. It's because of who she is and what she's done, and she's made that position hers. And not just hers for England, but hers as a marker for the elite player. So for me, watching Lucy play is just magnificent. And obviously, whenever she's on, I encourage every one of my kids to watch her play. She's a role model for all of my right backs, and I have a great one right now that I'm hoping will be on the US Full team roster by the next World cup by the name of Emily Fox. So Emily Fox, the role model that we have for her is Lucy Bronze.

All right, well that was Lucy Bronze, former UNC player and current player player for the English national team and Olympique Lyonnais. If you like this show, one way you can support our work is to subscribe to this podcast on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen and leave us a rating and review as well. This show was edited and produced by Creative Allies. If you're looking for information on full service podcast production, head on over to creativeallies.com I'm Natalie Boddy and we'll see you next time on the Vision of a Champion Podcast.

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Sam.