Tisha Venturini: Chapter 6 - Soccer Basics

Those practices were taxing physically and mentally. Like, the practices were so difficult that when we got to the game, it was kind of like, oh, this isn't so bad. You know, like, we did more competition, fierce competition in practice, or they would put a restriction on you, like, you guys are down. You know, put the surge up and say, you're down a goal. There's 10 minutes to go. Oh, and so. And so just got a red card. So you're playing in a practice under pressure, and so that when you get to the game, it's not like you can relax, but you're like, oh, okay. And you just play and have fun. When you're training at practice, like with the national team and with Anson's teams, if you can get through a practice in one piece, then you're in pretty good shape, right? You know, when the game comes, it's going to be. Then you can. You've already done it. You've already done all the work, the stress, and now you just play.

You're listening to the Vision of a Champion Podcast with Anson Dorrance, eight time Coach of the Year, 22 time National Champion, coach of the 1991 Women's World cup, team Hall of Famer, leader and mentor to so many in the soccer community. On this podcast, Anson brings on players and coaches to discuss what it means to be a champion. The drive, the passion, the desire, and, yes, the stories.

Here's your host, Natalie Boddy.

Hey, everyone. Welcome back to the Vision of a Champion podcast. I'm your host, Natalie Boddy, a color analyst for the Tar Heel Women's Soccer Program and the North Carolina Courage. For today's episode, we will analyze Chapter 6, Soccer Basics. In Chapter 6, Anson lays out three basic elements of the game that every player can utilize to increase their level of play. These elements are game sense, being a leader, and becoming a student of the game. Whether you're on the field, on the sidelines, or watching from the stands, these are parts of your game that every player should continue to develop. While basic in nature, only the greatest players are proficient in all three. Thankfully for Anson and for myself, we are joined by one of these great players, Tisha Venturini Hoch, who will talk about what it takes to develop these three basic soccer concepts. Along myself and Anson, Tisha played at UNC from 1991 to 1994. She was an NCAA champion all four years at Carolina with 132 caps and 44 goals. Tisha is one of the more decorated U.S. women's National Team players, as well she won a gold medal at the 1996 Summer Olympics and is a part of that legendary 1999 World cup championship team. After her time with the national team, she continued her greatness professionally, winning a championship in the inaugural season of the league with the Bay Area Cyber Race. Tisha recently teamed up with fellow UNC and US Women's National Team superstars Mia Hamm and Christine Lilly to start the renowned team First Soccer Academy, where she continues to develop the top youth talent in the country. And, of course, this podcast includes Ants, endurance, and the man who has made his career teaching these soccer basics and is considered the best to ever do it. With 22 NCAA championships and a World cup championship, Anson has coached these basics to some of the best female soccer players in the history of the sport, including our guest today. It is a pleasure to have you both here.

Thank you. Great to be here.

Anson, I'm going to just toss you on off the top. We were talking before the podcast about this fitness UNC Women's Soccer Parents hall of Fame. So I know you got a story about that you want to tell us. Let's get right into it.

Natalie. Thank you. Yeah, I have to tell the story. It's one of my absolute favorites. We were recruiting Tish, and obviously this is a kid from Northern California, and I know that she was debating when we were recruiting her, do I really want to go across the country to go to school? I mean, there's so many good schools here locally. You know, should I just stay here in the Bay Area? Should I just stay on the West Coast? And I know this was a very difficult decision for Tisha to make, to come all the way across the country to the University of North Carolina. I got to know the family really well, and I remember I was in a panic because I was losing some of the top players in my recruiting class that I hadn't offered any money to because all of my money was tied up in Tisch. Tisch was clearly one of the best players in the country coming out of high school that year. So I had offered her a full scholarship. And so I'm on the phone with Chick Venturini, Tish's dad, that I'm saying, Chick, I am just so sorry, but we're losing our whole recruiting class waiting for Tish to make up her mind. Do you know when she's going to decide whether or not she wants to come? And Chick was absolutely wonderful. And this is why he's in the Women's Soccer Parents hall of Fame. He said, anson, you know, oh, please don't worry about it. If my daughter decides to go to North Carolina, I can certainly afford it. So please don't worry about the scholarship. If you need to spend it to get some of the other kids you're chasing, please, you know, make that phone call and get it done. Because if my daughter says, you know what, Dad, I want to go to North Carolina, I'm going to send her there. Please don't worry about it. And it was like I had died and gone to heaven. Are you kidding me? I mean, no parent says that. They just don't say that. It's all about, you know, their ego and their ego of their kids. And they want to be able to go down the barbershop and say, oh, my kids on a full scholarship somewhere. And in all these collisions of egos and everything else is so tied up in so many of these decisions the parents are making. So this is great. So Chick gave me full reign to spend her scholarship, and this is an absolute true story. That night, I called Danielle Egan, I called Roz Santana, and I took Tish's full scholarship, I cut it in half, and they both committed on the spot. So all of a sudden, Danielle Egan, who was my left back, and Ross Santana, who was my right back, ended up committing to the University of North Carolina. And here's what was really cool. Holy cow, did those kids go on a great run. We won four in a row that year. And part of the reason is because we had so much quality on our team, because Chick didn't have any issue with paying for everything in Tisha's first year. Now, for full disclosure, I mean, from her sophomore year on, we put her back on the full. But I'll tell you this, wow, did that impact on our recruiting in the most positive way. And for the listeners to this podcast that don't know, you know, who Daniel Egan are or Ross Santana are, Danielle Egan married Claudio Reyna. Daniel Egan's son, Gio Reyna, is considered the best American player in his age group in the world. He just played in a Champions League game as a 17 year old, got an assist. So basically that's almost the first couple in American soccer to have Claudio Reyna, one of the all time greats on the men's side, married to Danielle, who, like Tish, played for a stretch on the US Full national team for the women. And now they're producing, I mean, some of the greatest players in the world. And then Ross Santana married Greg Berhalter, who of course is the US Men's full national team coach. And so, basically, with that one gesture from Chick Venturini, our recruiting class just went through the roof. And that team and its quality went through the roof. And that's a part of the great legacy. So right out of the gate, I just wanted to Tish to know my incredible loves, not just for her, but for her dad. That just put us in this amazing position. So there we go.

That's the story, which I never knew any of until maybe a couple years ago, actually. I think you told. First time you told me about ants, we were out to dinner in Chapel Hill, and you told that story, and I had no idea.

Well, there again, that's an example of who Chick is. I mean, this stuff wasn't crazy critical for supporting his ego. No. I mean, this is an extraordinarily successful man. He was a doctor. He had no issue with picking up the cost of sending his kid to school. And this is what drives all of us in the coaching profession crazy, because does that mean if your kid didn't have this athletic talent, you wouldn't be sending her to college? No. All the parents across the country are sending their kids to college, but then all of a sudden, if they have an athletic talent, all of a sudden now. Well, now they have to. Has to be market value. I've invested, you know, every weekend I flew my kids somewhere or drove her somewhere. I want to be repaid for this, and. No, no, no, no, no. Chick understands, you know, what's important.

Yeah. And Roz and Danny end up being, like, two of my best friends still today. I mean, we still talk. And my parents and Danielle's parents were like, travel buddies. They went to every game, stayed in the hotel together, ate dinner together. So really great relationships came from all this. So thank goodness he. He did that. Man, that's unbelievable.

So for all the soccer parents out there, obviously a great page to take out of your father's book, Tisha. But moving on. So a lot of this chapter is about game sense and how game sense turns good players into elite players. So, Anson, if you want to take the floor here and kind of elaborate on, you know, what does game sense truly mean? And maybe you could even touch on Tish's game sense or other notable players and how they use their game sense.

Sure. Well, let me start with Tish. What I loved about her when she came in is how complete she was. But also, she checked every box in midfield. I mean, very rarely do you have a midfielder that can do everything, that can score goals, that can Create goals that can defend, that can dominate the air. What was amazing about her ability in the air was her timing. It was almost like she knew exactly where the ball was going, and she had a perfect sense of how to time it. So she was at the peak of her jump. And so part of Tisha's game sense was her decision making. Knowing when to cut it back, to keep it, knowing when to play forward, knowing when to run forward. Because the number of goals she scored, and not just for us, by the way, I'm talking about for the Olympic team, the full national team, was extraordinary. In fact, I think her goal percentage out of midfield for the United States has to be one of the highest percentages of all the midfielders through the history of the U.S. national team from the beginning. So she was an absolutely complete player. So this is what I'm talking about, the sense of when to go forward, the sense of when to pass for. And her decision making is what totally separated Tish from her peer group. And then what I would love for Tish is what happened right after I took off and took Mia and Christine with me. And tell me what you guys had to do, because I know you had to carry the show. So talk about what Bill Palladino had to do with you and the team after we basically took the firepower away because you won that national championship. So please tell all of us that story.

Yeah, I just. I think, you know, when you lose a quality player and you lot. We lost two of the best players in the world. Everybody else steps up, you know, everybody else, you know, digs deeper. And Dino was so great about, like, if we're going to win, it's got to be like, a total team effort. Like, the entire team has to contribute. You know, that gives people, you know, a sense of, like, you know, they need me. I'm important, and I want to help my team win. So I think it was really like. I think we used every player on that roster in different circumstances and grind it out. Like, we had to grind out some wins. And I think it was like Anson said, we would go for corner kicks, and I try to get it on the frame, and then we just, you know, kamikaze in the box. So we got it in the net. But, you know, the mentality that we had at Carolina was 100%. Just go after it, high pressure, win every ball, chase everything down. And, you know, that's just embedded in every player that played there. So we still had that. We lost two of the best, but the rest of the team still had that mentality that we've, you know, that we've been taught the heart to fight and win and, you know, the sense of team, which has always been number one from Anson and Dino and Tony Decicico. It's the team, man. It's not individual. So you lose a couple individuals, so what, you know, everybody else can handle it. And we didn't panic. I don't think we were panicked about it. Wasn't like, oh, my God, they're gone now. What are we gonna do? It was like, all right. So I think Dino's kind of good about that, keeping everybody kind of calm. You know, it's like, yeah, you know, we might win, we might not. I honestly don't remember, like, stressing out about it or thinking too much about it. I was excited for the girls. We were fired up for them to go over to China and Anson. And I remember getting faxes because, of course, there was no email or whatever. We get a fax if they won the game or what, you know, and Carolina team would get together and wait for the fax to come out, and then we could cheer and stuff. So it was a unique year, but I think it was a great year for the rest of the team to kind of find their spot and help contribute to a winning season.

So, Tisha, you mentioned that theme of Team First. Well, speaking of Team first, we know that you co founded with Mia Hamm and Christine Lilly the Team First Soccer Academy. So I want to give you a chance to kind of expand on how that came to be. And obviously, just the underlying Team first theme throughout some of your career at Carolina or all of your career at Carolina, and then now in the coaching aspect.

Yeah, I mean, Christine and Mia and myself and actually Angela Kelly is also part of this group. We were just such great friends, and we loved being on the field together so much that when we ended up, people were retiring and we weren't playing and we weren't spending any time together because Ang is coaching. Lil's still playing. Mia's doing her thing. I'm over here. So it was really hard for us to spend time together. And so we thought, well, if we just start doing some camps, we'd be able to hang. Mostly we want to just be together and have fun. So we started, you know, we got together and met. We're like, let's just do, like, eight times a year. Maybe we'll throw some camps together. That'll give us some time to spend together and really be around the game. That taught us so Much that we love. You know, it's be great to share our experience and love for the game to the youth. And so when we were trying to think of a name, of course Lil and I were like, let's name it the Mia Hamm Soccer Camp. Who's not gonna come to that, right? Of course, Mia, because of the way she is and extremely humble and wants no attention is like, no way, we're not doing that. So we pitted around and team. Team and team first. Whatever. The words kept coming out so we were like team first. It's brilliant. Like that is what we are about. We have always put our team first. And it comes from Anson way back, you know, in early days and Dino and Tony DeCicco. It was never about one player. It was always about the team and how can you make your team better and are you going to be great for your team. It was never about yourself and man did that have power. And it was so brilliant. So that's when anybody asks us, it's team first. It's no other option. And we've had a great time. We've been doing for like 10 years. We go around the country and teach, you know, young kids, boys. We've added boys. We used to do girls only. Like, well, let's bring the boys in. Because when we were young we played with the boys. Like that's what we did. And it was great for us and it was great for them. So we do co ed camps and honestly we just want to teach the kids about being a good teammate because people have kind of lost sight of that. It's all about how good am I going to be and how am I going to get a scholarship. And look at me, I scored 50 goals. It's not about that, you know, it's about being a good teammate and it's about fun. Like we had so much fun. And Anson will tell you, I mean we were serious and we would, you know, work our tails off, but it was fun. It has to be fun. And so that's the other part that we kind of try to hammer into them is enjoy the game and love it. But you got to have fun, fun and first of all be a great teammate.

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This is Dean Linke. I hope you've been enjoying the podcast, and I wanted to make you aware that Anson just released a new audiobook version of his hardcover book, the Vision of a Champion. Now you can listen to the book, narrated by Anson Dorrance, and switch back to the free podcast to hear the stars of the women's game discussion. Discuss each chapter. The Vision of a Champion audiobook is available on Apple Books, Amazon's, Audible, Google Play, or wherever you get your audiobooks. To find it, simply search the Vision of a Champion audiobook. Now, let's get back to the show.

Hanson, I want to give you a chance to kind of expand on the team first concept, but also I just want to bring to your attention that so many of your players are now elite coaches. So you know what's in your secret sauce for coaching? That you have these players that just grow up to be exceptional coaches as well.

Natalie, thank you for that question. Well, let me tell you, it was intentional. What we tried to do in the early days was to try to get people to understand that we needed them to serve the game. And I think Tish probably remembers this. Every now and again, I would say, future coaches of America, when I was trying to teach something. And it was deliberate, it was intentional. What I was trying to get them to think of is we needed them. We needed them as role models. We needed them because basically there weren't that many people originally that were really interested in the girls and women's game. I mean, I was encouraging my colleagues on the men's side to jump over. I was telling them how much fun I was having coaching my women's team. And even though I started out as a men's coach, I did that for three years, and then 10 years in a row, I was coaching men and women. And I was trying to get a lot of the elite male coaches to jump over and do both, which is what I was doing, but to attract people into our game. And then obviously, the best collection of people to be coaches were these kids I was training. And so that cliche I used regularly, future coaches of America, what I wanted to plant in their brains was that we need you. We need you guys to be soccer, women's soccer, girls soccer evangelists. And you know what? They were. I mean, for all of Mia's extraordinary qualities on the field, the thing that in my Opinion had the greatest impact for the growth of the girls and women's game was the fact that Mia became this icon, and everyone wanted their kid to be Mia. And so her contribution wasn't just on the field, it was off the field. And so all these different, extraordinary people that were role models for the women's game, but also coaches for the women's game, were really critical for us. So I loved when they started this academy because, first of all, I knew their friendships were important to them, but the other thing I loved about it is this was a collection of kids that had so much fun together at North Carolina. They wanted to figure out a way to stay together for the rest of their lives. And then what they were bringing. And I love what Tish just shared with us about the theme of the camp. I mean, yeah, we're going to teach you some things about the game, but you know what? We're going to have fun. Because one of the biggest problems right now, by the time these kids hit 13, 14, 15, 16, right now in the United States, they're quitting the game in droves. And we have to change that. How do we change that? Let's return to making sure every practice is fun so that kid doesn't quit. So it's not all about, you know, making the full national team or winning that scholarship. Are you having fun? Are you enjoying this? And let's just find coaches that can make sure that's a part of the DNA of every practice session that they run.

Tisha is one of the players in Anson's coaching tree, so to speak. Are there any aspects in your coaching style that you actually adopted from Anson?

Geez, everything I know about the game comes from him. Mostly from him and from Tony. Like, when you're playing, you don't think you're learning the game so much. You know what I mean? But all of Anson's chalk talks were, like, exactly, like, super specific. Like, this is what we're gonna do. This is where you need to be. And you needed to know everybody's job, right? So, like, for instance, I was. I help out the high school, and we were doing, like, a finishing drill, like, crossing and finishing, and nobody was, like, sealing off the post, right? Like, and I'm like, do they not know what this is? Like, this is. So I was teaching them after, you know, you make your near post run, if it doesn't come to you, you're gonna turn and make the goal, what, like, another yard bigger? And be ready in case they miss, Hit it. Then you're easy goal, right? So I'm gonna teaching these things, and I'm going, how do I know all this? Like, you know, it's not stuff that I, like, wrote down, but it's like every time I'm watching, I could have stopped the practice 50 times and been like, oh, you need to do this. Like, this is. And why. You know what I mean? It's like when they used to teach us, they would teach us why you do it. You know, they don't just say, go over there, you know, and make this run.

It's.

There's always a why. And that's why it stuck with me, because then that's why I learned it. So you know little things about things, runs in the box and opening up in your body position. But why am I doing that? Like, that's so important. And they were so great about you knowing why you were doing something. That is a huge difference. Instead of making us robots, just do this. It's like he would say, what's your role and what are you doing and why? And you have to say, you know, out loud to everyone, and he might ask you what the right backs role is, and you're playing left forward, and you got to know it.

So.

So secretly they were embedding all this information into us, but in a way where it wasn't like a soldier do this robot. It was a smart, effective way to get it into our brain so that we were learning it without realizing it.

Anson, I want to ask you, when you're teaching your players to watch these games, is there a difference in how you tell them to watch the women's game versus the men's game? Do you have a preference?

Well, what we do now, just because the coverage is so extraordinary, we talk about the men's game being the university for the women's game. To be completely honest, and this isn't a part of the equal pay debate or anything, the men are still playing the game at the highest possible level. We aspire to get our game up to their level. And the other thing about the men's game that's so cool is in Chapel Hill, North Carolina. But also wherever you live in the United States, you've got a better conduit into the English Premier League than someone living in London. So the exposure we get to these extraordinary coaches and teams and players in the English Premier League is just off the charts. And there are few leagues in the world of that standard where the best team can lose to the worst team. And almost all the other top teams in the world. The top teams in the Bundesliga rarely lose to the teams in the bottom half of the table. The same with Spain and Italy, but in the English Premier League, I mean, all the teams can beat all the teams, and I love it. So I want my kids watching the game at the highest level. But what I appreciate about your question, Natalie, is this student of the game thing. You can watch a game all kinds of ways. And I've got a story about what happened recently to me that really helped me see the game. When the World cup final for the men occurred in 2018, I watched it live. I watched it as a fan. So I left that game so impressed with Mbappe and the French, but I was watching it as a fan because, gosh, was watching Mbappe just incredibly exciting, and what a final he had. They put the game on again, and I watched it like three or four nights ago. And I'm watching the game and I'm going, oh, my gosh, the Croatians are better than the French. In other words, this is a fluke, the fact the French won. So when I watch it the first time, I'm watching it as a fan, and I'm so excited about all the great players. And then this week, I'm watching it as a student. And my impression, the game did a 180. The only area where the Croatians were weak was in goal. Every other position, the average player of the 10 field players was superior to the average player, the French 10, which is why the French bunkered and countered. They basically sat in a low block. They had Mbappe up top, and they tried to get balls in behind the Croatian defense. The Croatians had 68% of the possession, and they were so good on the ball, it was stunning for me, because the only player I knew that played for Croatia was Luka Modric and then Mandukic, and that's it. Those are the only two names I knew on their roster. I knew the entire French roster because obviously a lot of them drifted into the epl. So there is a different way to watch the game. And so, yes, always watch the game as a fan, but then when you are studying the game, you're going to have a completely different perspective. And so when we're studying the game as players at unc, but also the people I'm trying to, I guess, get to the next level, we want to watch it all kinds of different ways. And so for one of my young women, like a tish that had the potential to make the US Full team, what we have our kids do now is I actually want them to watch the national team and target the whole. In other words, target the weak link on the team and figure out a way how you're going to beat this player out. So now that's almost an aggressive student of the game, because there's one of my kids that wants to play on the US Full team. And so let's study the US Team. And these players are getting older, and we talk about the ages of these players in the player conferences when I'm meeting with my kids. And now let's target that player. I think you can beat her out. Well, let's look at her now. Here, right now is where she's better than you are. And we have to get better here, but here is where you're better than she is. And so we've got all these different ways that we want our kids to watch the game.

Tish, I want to give you a chance to kind of expand on how you watched and grew your game as an athlete, studying players or idolizing players. And additionally, if you want, kind of touch on how you encourage that as a coach as well.

Well, back when I grew up, there was no one to watch. There was no women's national team. I don't remember seeing a soccer game on tv. Like, there was really nowhere to watch. There was no YouTube to watch highlights. So it was those early days. I wasn't studying anything. I was in my backyard playing pickup with a bunch of boys and just figuring it out and, you know, figuring out how. How to get space, probably. And my brother used to kick balls from the, you know, part of our backyard to me, and I would head it, you know, like, that's probably where I got that talent. You know, it was like tinkering around in the backyard and just figuring it out with free play and pickup, which is a shame that kids aren't doing as much today. There's no free time to go out and kind of mess around because everything's so structured. But now as a. As there's so much to watch, I just. I've been eating it up. I watch games and I do watch as a fan, but all like, you know, see how their shape is and what they're doing on offense as a team shape, because these young kids don't understand shape at all or how to move. It's off the ball movement. I think that these kids, like, my daughter's 12 and she's. She has the ball, she's great. And then she gives it away and she kind of doesn't know where to go, you know what I mean? So I think it's little things like that, and I think watching it with someone that can kind of talk you through it is helpful. So we'll watch the US Team play, and we'll watch and she'll say, oh, did you see that pass? And we'll rewind it and we'll watch the run and we'll watch the delivery. And you know, it's not all the goals we're watching. I'll be like, did you see that 50 yard ball that sour Brun just hit and put Pinot first, You know, like little things like that. So I'm helping her with that. As a kid, I didn't really have that luxury, but it can make world of difference, man. I think just seeing it from the outside and kind of studying and watching it makes all the difference.

Anson, I kind of want to switch gears and go back to talking about that game sense, which also can sort of be developed by being a student of the game, as we were touching on. But with that in mind, there's increasing support for cross training, playing other sports, which actually aids in injury prevention. And I know that just from being a color analyst for your games this year, you have no problem with letting your girls play other sports. I mean, if it's lacrosse or it's basketball. So how do you encourage these elite athletes to not specialize? And what do you think are some of the benefits to playing multiple sports?

Natalie, thank you. Well, let me share my opinions on this because I think sports should be fun and I don't think we should go around, you know, telling kids that they've got to commit themselves to one sport year round. Not that you shouldn't have that choice. If you want it, you should. But what I really disliked about what was happening for a while when the Development Academy all of a sudden descended into the youth game is they were throwing out high school soccer, which for me was just tragic because so many of these girls love their high school teams, their coaches, their community of the high schools they were playing for and representing. And I just didn't like that. And I also didn't like, you know, all these D8 coaches telling them they couldn't play for their basketball teams. And Tish, let me ask you this. Didn't you play volleyball and basketball?

Well, I played everything in high school. I played volleyball, soccer and softball.

Yeah. So this is what just drives me nuts. And then, you know, I just finished reading this book called Range, and Range is basically making the argument for all of us as athletes as we're growing up to play everything. Because I think the cross training experience is positive. But I think the most positive thing about this cross training experience is you fall in love with sports. And you know what? Sports should be fun. And, yeah, you should be able to have a lot of fun with anything. And, you know, people will be shocked to hear that one year I had picked Christine Lilly for my national team roster, and she decided not to come on one of my world tours because she had a softball tournament. And people hear this story, they're just incredulous. But here's what they don't understand. Christine loved sport. She loved her softball coach, she loved her softball teammates, and that's what made her a great teammate with us on the women's national team. And so, yeah, I think a part of our moral imperative as parents and coaches is to make sure our kids love what they're doing and don't restrict it and pull it back. That's why I'm sure Tish will appreciate this. Do you know one of my favorite events in the spring is watching my girls play intramural basketball? I love it because they press for the entire game. Half of them can't even play, but they can press, they can defend, they can move their feet, they can pass because they understand, you know, sport. And I go and I support them to no end. And I love it. At the end of the game, the other team, if it's a sorority or a dorm team or an open team, the other team's eyeballs are bulging out of their heads. They're exhausted from being pressed the entire time. My kids are having the time of their lives, and I absolutely love it. I think what we have to do is to make sure that these kids love sport. So don't restrict them from anything. Anything they want to do, let them jump in. Now, eventually, if you want to become elite, you've got to spend more time and specialize. But by then, you love sports. And so let's not make that too early. Let these kids play. You know, I would say, at least into their 14s and 15s. And then, yep, you know what I'm thinking? Soccer is going to be my game. I love cross training. I love all sports. And I never want to be the person to tell a kid, no, no, no, you can't do this, because you got to pour all of yourself into this. I think that's too much pressure, Tish.

I wanted to just kind of expand on something, you know, in your repertoire that no other athlete Has. And this was kind of astounding to me, just reading up on you and learning about all of your accomplishments. You're the only athlete in any sport to win all five of these titles. You were a collegiate champion in college at Carolina. You are a four time national champion at Carolina. You were an Olympic gold medalist, a World cup champion, and you were a professional champion. So you've won on every single level. And I just think that that's something. Something so noteworthy that people need to remark on it. And I would just regret if I didn't ask you recalling these experiences, maybe if you want to talk about a little bit, the differences between them and the most memorable of these championships since you have so many.

Obviously I was on a lot of great teams. I mean, that's the first thing that comes to mind is I was on great teams. Every one of those teams was phenomenal. And I think the main piece that goes with all of those teams, that it was a selfless, hardworking team that had fun and wanted to win and love their teammates. Like, if you look at any of those teams, that's what it was. The four championships at Carolina were all very different because, you know, you have people coming in and people coming out and leaving and new kids. And I think Anson Dino just did a phenomenal job. Like, when you came there, you knew what was expected. Like, you were expected to be fit, right? You were expected to be a great teammate and work hard. And it wasn't easy, man. I mean, those were, those practices were taxing and physically and mentally, you know, they put us through. Like, the practices were so difficult that when we got to the game, it was kind of like, oh, this isn't so bad. You know, like we did more competition, fierce competition. And in practice, or they would put a restriction on you. Like, you guys are down, you know, they put the stairs up and say, you're down a goal, there's 10 minutes to go. Oh, and so, and so just got a red card. Now you're down a man, you're down a goal, and there's 10, you know, like stuff like that where. So you're playing in a practice under pressure, you know, and so that when you get to the game, it's not like you can relax, but you're like, oh, okay. And you just play and have fun. Like, you don't have to worry about all these things. And so being on teams with, with teammates that have trained like that and that work like that and then have the same mentality that, heck, yeah, I'm Gonna win, but it's gonna be fun. And it's not all about me. And that's how those, those teams work. I didn't have a whole lot to do with it. I just jumped right in and kind of went with the flow. But when you're training at practice with the national team and with Anson's teams, if you can get through a practice in one piece, then you're in pretty good shape, right? You know, when the game comes, it's gonna be. Then you can. You've already done it. You've already done all the work, the stress, and now you just play. And so I'm not. I didn't know I had any kind of. I wasn't. I mean, Mia's won a lot of things. Lil's won a lot of. Those guys are phenomenal records. And. But you know what? We don't even think about that. Like, if you ask Lil or Mia how many wins they've had or goals they scored, they don't care. They don't know. They just know they were on great teams and had a friggin great time.

Anson, just another coaching question for you, because Carla Overbeck actually has a section in the chapter that describes her internal struggle to be vocal on the field as a freshman. So wrapping up, obviously both of you are coaching, so what do you do to counteract the implicit hierarchy of the team so that younger players are not afraid to be more vocal and they're comfortable doing so well?

I don't know how often Tish played with Carla. She was with you for a lot of the National Team career, right, Tish?

Yeah, in my whole career, nine, 10 years, I played with Carla.

Okay. What Natalie's referring to is in this chapter, it was very difficult for us to get Carla to lead as a freshman. So when you're looking at the all time great leaders, and Carla is certainly one of them, what Natalie's referring to is she just was reluctant to basically tell an upperclassman, you know, what to do on the field. And so let me share sort of that process for someone like Carla. First of all, like so many of these, and Tish is another example, she was a humble kid. She actually was kind of shocked that we started her as a freshman. She's in the best position on the field to lead from. She's in the middle of the defense, so the whole game's in front of her and she's in a perfect position to lead. And yet because she was so humble, it was difficult for her, too. The difference between her freshman Year and senior year, though, was night and day. Her senior year, she had no issue. I mean, just her senior year was hilarious. She would say things like this. She would basically tell a player that, you track, track, track. You know, Julie, you've got to track, you've got to track. And then all of a sudden, Julie's not tracking. The next thing out of Carla's mouth is, anson, get Julie out of here. She would scream on the field for me to substitute a player that wasn't listening to her.

So.

And of course, what am I doing? I'm warming up that substitute because Carla doesn't want to play with her. And all of a sudden, oh, my gosh, whenever Carla said something in the game, at least while she was playing, for me, that person did it immediately because they knew what was coming out of Carla's mouth next. Get her out of here. She's killing us. And so it was great. But that was the evolution of her leadership style. Because it's very hard for someone that's young to command the field verbally from certainly the older players. Carla's evolution and Tish could drill into this even more. By the time she was on the US Team. I mean, there are few leaders. In fact, there's a book that talks about the captains, and Carla was in this book just because she was such an extraordinary leader. Tish, what was your memories of how great she was as a leader? Because I loved having her on the field for me.

Oh, heck, yeah. Cause I played in the center midfield and she was always right behind me, Right? So she was always like, come on, come on. You know, like just giving you that. She could tell you were tired. She'd go dig it out.

Let's go.

Like, she had that grindy little voice, but if you made a mistake, she was like, no, who cares? Let's go get it next time. Every time I would hear her voice, I'd be like, thank God she's back there. You know? And she would encourage, like, if people weren't doing their job, you're going to hear it, man. And she could back it up because she was the fittest player out there. She was the hard working. She knew everybody's job. It wasn't like she was just there bossing people around. She backed it up.

She could do.

She was doing everything and more that she was asking you to do. So when you have a player that's like that, like a Christine Lilly who isn't super verbal, but just is doing every, you know, leaving every ounce of her being out on the field, you're immediately like, oh my God, I want.

To be like her.

Like, I'm going to listen to what she says so Carla could back it up. But she was such a positive. Nothing rattled her. Like, we could be down 2 0, you know, with 20 minutes left. And she was calm, you know, it's like, come on, guys, you know, but not ever panic. Just amazing. And thank goodness she was behind. She fowdy and I played in front of her and she would razz fowdy like nobody's business to keep it funny, right? She'd be like, what the hell are you doing, Julie? You know, just to make. And then people would laugh. You know, if we needed a light moment to laugh, she would crack a joke. You know, even in the Olympic, you know, game, she would be making jokes. So she was. It was an honor to be able to play in front of her in midfield and have her as a captain. Man, I'll tell you.

That was Tisha venturini Hoch, former UNC and U.S. women's national team player and co founder of the team First Soccer Academy. If you like this show, one way you can support our work is to subscribe to this podcast on Apple Podcast, Podcast or wherever you listen and leave us a rating and review as well. This show is edited and produced by Creative Allies. If you're looking for information on a full service podcast production, head over to creativeallies.com on behalf of myself, Natalie Boddy, our Hall of Fame coach, Anson Dorrance, and star athlete Tish Venturini Hoch. We'll see you next time on the Vision of a Champion Podcast.

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