Why Do People Trust White Lawyers More Than Black Lawyers?

You want justice, it equals white.

Looking at media and television and how it has portrayed the hotshot lawyer, it has portrayed a white male or white female. As African Americans, I believe we've always had to prove ourselves, especially in my profession.

I refuse to believe the stereotype. To me, it's a big issue that white race is supreme race. That's why I don't like when people call me white. Kid is gonna spend his entire life in jail.

I mean, the facts were not on Carmelo's side at all. You do the best you can do for your client, and we end up getting into a fight. I got arrested, he didn't. I just fell in love with the profession.

When they hear lawyer, they think that you're trying to literally like screw them over. So how do you make them trust you?

You gotta do good work.

You actually have to pay to go to law school.

First time I went in, went into court, scared shitless.

This is Talk Less. Talk less, do more. Twin, I have a question. If a regular person were to walk in the room right now and they needed a lawyer, do you think they would hire me or they would hire Malcolm? First thing, automatically, what— who are they going with? Automatically? Yes. I'm probably gonna go with you.

Why?

Because you like the brightest person.

It just seems like you was all extra shiny. I'm not saying my brother ain't extra shiny, but it's just the way you walk in the room. You look like a character off Suits or something. Like, I feel like you know your stuff. Why? I'm just saying, I'm just going off television entertainment. I mean, I'm not— it ain't got nothing to do with racism. So I'm broke, so I'm just gonna go with who got on the Louis Vuitton versus, you know, the Superman. So I mean, I, I believe that it does have a lot to do with race, all right? It has nothing to do with my capabilities or my competence. It has a lot to do with how you look right now.

Um, but why do you think people choose lawyers based on the way that people look? Is that— that's not normal.

Well, historically You know, when we're looking at media and television and how it has portrayed the, the hotshot lawyer, it has portrayed a white male or white female, you know, blue eyes, blonde hair, blonde hair. Okay. They haven't portrayed— the media hasn't portrayed an African-American male that looks like myself as the top shot lawyer, like top shot lawyer. All right, so historically, invisibility, you know, us as Americans, we look at what have we seen. We've seen, we've seen the white woman, we've seen the white male. So naturally we want to go out and get what we saw in, in the media and in the TVs. And, you know, not actually, you know, and most of these people haven't even sat down with an African-American lawyer. All right, they had never spoke to an African-American lawyer, have never try to hire one, they automatically go for the white lawyer. It has nothing to do with competence.

But why is the perception of people that if you want justice, it equals white? I mean, we see it in the case, the case that just dropped, the Carmel Anthony case. That's, that's, that's, you know what it is.

It's visibility. Okay, let me hire a white lawyer because he might make me, you know, look better. 'Or this might make me look better, okay? Let me hire this white lawyer.' Because optics, that's what it— that's all it's about. It's not about, you know, competence. It's not about what this lawyer has done or what this African-American lawyer has done, what he's capable of doing, his wins, his losses. It's about, 'Hey, when I walk in a room with a white lawyer—' and I've heard clients say this— 'When I walk in a room with a white lawyer, I automatically think that I— well, I automatically feel like my case is is going to be, in their words, beat.

So basically, you as a lawyer, when you walk into the courtroom, there is prejudice about you might not potentially be the best lawyer, that you have to prove yourself. Just because you look a certain way, you have to prove yourself that you're a good lawyer.

I mean, we've always had to prove ourselves. As African Americans, I believe we've always had to prove ourselves, especially in my profession. Africans, African Americans in my profession make up about 5% of the profession. So roughly about 1 out of every 20 lawyers that you would encounter would be Black. All right. So, but why is that?

Why is that? Because I refuse to believe the stereotype because I feel like it's to an extent, it's an insult on intelligence, right? That they're going to say that they're not going to go to school, they're not going to get their education, which is bullshit. I don't think that that's true. Yeah, it's not true.

And I haven't, you know, I really don't listen to that, those narratives, but I will say you can associate, you know, someone being articulate, someone being competent, or someone being, you know, successful with a race. It's not exclusive to white race, all right, at all, all right. It's everyone, anyone. So I don't really, I don't hear that. I think African Americans can read, write, they can be successful. I see it every day, not necessarily a lot in my profession, but in my friends and the people I hang with. And I see it often, and especially in Atlanta. I mean, I see it every day.

Yeah, so. I ain't gonna hold you. I think it's, to me, it's a big issue that the, white racist supreme race. I hate that. That's why I don't like when people call me white. I'm like, don't associate me with that because I don't believe in that. I don't believe that one human being is above another human being. I don't believe that race has anything to do with it.

No, it's about, you know, more, at least in my profession, it's about, you know, competence, preparation, you know, how diligent you are and factors like that. It has really nothing to do with race. I've seen some very, very intelligent and, you know, great Black attorneys, uh, very, very great. My mentors, very great Black attorneys. I've also had white mentors as well. So I got one white mentor and one Black mentor, both great attorneys. All right, so it's not exclusive to a race. All right, it's just we have few— fewer African Americans that are going to law school, taking the bar exam, coming out and actually practicing law. All right. So it's more white males and white females that are doing that.

What do you think? You know, the Carmel Anthony case is going really crazy right now. People are saying— people are split. Of course, there is, you know, there is— there are some saying that there is justice that's been served. A lot of people are saying that there is not— there's no justice that's been served and this is a racial thing. And a lot of people are saying that if he hired a Black lawyer, it would have been a different outcome.

I, so I didn't look too much into, to that case just because I got my own cases going on as of right now. But, um, I will tell you, you know, when you get somebody that looks like you, all right, and you get somebody that can relate to you as a person, they're, they're going to fight harder for you. Okay, so Not saying that his lawyer didn't fight hard for him because I didn't look at, you know, the case that much. But I'm telling you, you know, when you get somebody that looks like you, they're going to go the extra mile. All right, you got somebody that really cares and somebody that can relate to you, they're gonna, they're gonna go the extra mile. Um, not saying that his lawyer didn't know. I do want to emphasize that.

Do you agree with what happened? Do you agree with the fact that they're giving the 7— well, he's 19 now, but they're giving him 35 years?

When you get convicted of murder which he did, you know, that's the sentence. I think the range was, you know, the minimum he could have gotten was 5 years and the max he could have gotten was 99. That's what I heard. So yeah, so 35, I think the judge kind of didn't split the baby but kind of put it somewhere in the, you know, in the, in the middle, uh, and that was based on the facts, I believe. You know, he gave him that 35 based on— you can't be too lenient, but also he wasn't too harsh. But, you know, I think they're gonna appeal the case, probably. Yeah, 100% sure, probably gonna appeal. And, you know, hopefully, you know, he'll get out.

Yeah, because when I looked, it said that he's gonna be eligible for parole 17.5 years down the road. Yeah, which is insane. So the kid is gonna spend his entire life in jail.

Yeah, and I saw the facts, you know, I looked at the facts a little bit of that case and I, yeah, I don't, I don't, I'm not gonna say that was, that was justice, okay? Because I believe he could have been bullied. You know, these boys had no reason putting their hands on him, and I do believe he was scared at the time. But you know, one thing that I do know is you can't Now you can't meet a push with a knife. All right, uh, now if it would have went further than, you know, just Austin Metcalf pushing him and maybe, you know, them jumping them, you know, 4 or 5 guys, these 250-pound football players jumping them, then I think he would have had a better shot. But just someone, you know, doing this it's hard to say that you can meet that push with deadly force.

So basically what you're saying is it's a complicated case. For sure.

I, I, I believe it was complicated. And, and I mean, the facts were not on Carmelo's side at all. The facts didn't weigh heavily on his side. Self-defense— the self-defense argument was was not as strong as the murder argument.

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I mean, you do the best you can do for your client. That, that's, that's really all you can, you can do. You got to do the best you can do. So, you know, in his, in that lawyer's position, It was, I think he, it was like the spaghetti trick. You throw it at the wall and whatever sticks is going to stick. All right. So you do, and that's what they used to call in law school. Sometimes when you, when you don't have anything, you just throw it all at the wall and whatever will stick will stick. And that's what I believe he did. So I think he, he tried to do the best he could do for his client. And like I said, I don't know, I didn't watch the day-to-day trial, so I don't know how effective he was. But I, I will say, like, that's— if I was in his position, you know, I would try to do the best I could do, all right, and try to come up with the most creative arguments that I could have and try to come up with the best defense that I could have for my client. And sometimes, you know, sometimes you just gotta lose a case. Sometimes the facts are just not on your side, but you, you're not— you, you can't buy the facts. You're not given— you're just— you give— you're given the facts and you gotta make whatever you can make out of them.

Now, a follow-up question to that, I would say I do believe that, you know, if you do have some money as a client, you probably could hire more lawyers.

I believe he had, he had the adequate finances for whatever representation he wanted. He had people donating, and, and they're probably lawyers who would have took that case for pro bono, you know, just because how the case was broadcasted. Yeah. All right. They would have took that case for free. So I don't think money was a play in him gaining adequate representation. I believe he went with a white lawyer because he was, he's in a white town. Judge is white. The lawyer probably knew the judge. Hey, this is going to look good for my case. All right. I have a white lawyer representing me. Okay, so this is not a race thing. Okay, so this is not me, you know, being mad at a white boy because he touched me and I just stabbed him because I'm racist. Other way around too. So it's, let me, let's, let's hire a white lawyer so it doesn't look like this is a race thing. So I believe all that it was optics, it's visibility. So it's like a strategy that they went for. Yeah, for sure, for sure. Because it's, I'm pretty sure in the state of Texas, and I've heard the state of Texas has one of, you know, the great, greatest, you know, bars out here, you know, there was a Black lawyer that would have took this case. Hmm. Yeah, I heard some of the best lawyers come from Texas. Really? Yeah.

I heard that California has the hardest bar exam in the whole country.

Georgia's bar exam is hard. Really? Yeah.

Well, you passed it. Yeah. All right, let's do the intro. Okay, you guys, welcome back to Talk Class Show. You've been asking me to bring a Black business owner who's been very successful, and you've been asking me to bring one of the lawyers on my show. Um, you've been asking me to bring Brendan Dixon, who was sponsoring Charleston White episode, but I decided to do something different and bring Malcolm on the show. So let me do the intro and, um, we're gonna get into the conversation. The internet has spent months debating Carmelle Anthony case. People have argued about race, self-defense, justice, guilt, innocence, and whether outcome was fair. Everybody seems to have an opinion. But while watching all these conversations, I started thinking about something else. Why is that when people need a lawyer, especially for the biggest moments of their lives, many people still automatically trust a white lawyer before they would trust a Black lawyer? Where does that perception come from? Is it racism? Is it marketing? Is it representation? Or is it something deeper? So today's guest is Malcolm Connor, a criminal defense attorney who has built a career helping people navigate some of the hardest situations imaginable. He spent years fighting for clients, building a business, earning trust, and providing that competence doesn't have a color and proving that competence doesn't have a color. Today we're talking about why Black lawyers are often overlooked, how trust is earned in the legal profession, why people misunderstand what defense attorneys actually do, the business of law, mentorship, criminal justice, and what it really means to represent someone when the entire world has already made up its mind.

Welcome to Talk Less Show. Thank you, Lesya. Thank you for having me. I'm excited. I'm happy to be here. I'm excited. I'm excited. I like your show. You've been watching? When I have time, I look at the clips. So yeah, I like it.

You guys, when you say you watch my show, please tell me that you watch the full episodes. And I know I've sent you some of the full episodes.

I've watched. I've watched. Some, some episodes.

Okay, well, I do want to get into this conversation about why did you want to become a lawyer? How did that even happen?

Okay, so me becoming a lawyer, uh, started before undergrad. Okay, um, first lawyer in my family. Okay, no other. My father is not a lawyer, my mother's not a lawyer. I no uncles or aunts that are lawyers. I got into an incident— scratch that, it happened while in undergrad. Okay. I got into an incident with a guy. I was at a bar and I was with a young lady and he tried to holla at the young lady. And me and this guy end up getting into, you know, altercation. And we end up getting into a fight outside of the bar. I got arrested, he didn't. At the time, I'm in undergrad, no money, can't afford representation, okay? So all these lawyers are sending notices and solicitations to my mother's house, and I can't afford a lawyer at the time. However, I was like, you know, let me try to see if I can do this on my own. So I prepared for that hearing, looked up the law, looked up, you know, possible defenses, and I went pro se, and I went to the hearing and actually got the case dismissed. But it wasn't, it wasn't like a full-blown out hearing. Okay. I had my witnesses come to show that it was, you know, a self-defense. A situation, and then partly he didn't want to prosecute it either. So it was like a technicality. But still, it was cool to me. It wasn't about necessarily the hearing, it was about knowing that I had the power to kind of change the outcome. And that kind of changed my whole entire life on what I wanted to do, how I wanted to do it. So I started studying for the LSAT, end up taking the LSAT, getting into law school, and I just fell in love with the profession. Um, while— what was your undergrad though? What were you studying before? Kinesiology. So something totally— something totally different. Were you into sports? Were you like an athlete? I was going to get into sports medicine. Okay. Uh, but I had two mentors— well, one mentor at the time. And his name is Daniel Cain, a white mentor, took me under his wing and I started going to court with him, criminal defense attorney, very, very good criminal defense attorney here in Atlanta, still practicing. And I just, I was under his wing for a long time while in law school before, and I just fell in love with one, how he ran his business, two, how great of a lawyer he was, and that kind of just like pushed me to, to get out and do it.

But why criminal law though?

Just because I was around it a lot with him, and then me being in Atlanta, I saw the need for it. All right, I saw the need for— hold up, we gotta touch on that.

What does that mean, I saw the need for it?

I saw the need for an African-American lawyer to come in and advocate for the community. Yeah, so, uh, what I did see while I was around Daniel Cain was a lot of white lawyers. All right, rarely saw any young Black lawyers. All right, even in law school, I was one of maybe two. I think in my class I was the only African American. Uh, so I didn't see a lot of Black attorneys. All right, but I saw a lot of white attorneys.

Did that make you feel any type of way?

No, I just knew that we were not being represented by our own. Okay.

So do you think it's important to be represented by your own, the people who look like you? I do.

One, because you can relate to someone that looks— I can relate to someone that looks like me. Mm-hmm. All right. We've come from the same background. Mm-hmm. All right. Sometimes probably went to the same high school or in that area. Okay, and we just can share different conversations than I could share with someone that doesn't look like me. All right, so they feel, they trust me. My clients, 9 times out of 10, they're going to trust me, all right, because I can relate to them. All right, so they're going to open up and tell me the god honest truth every time, all right, because they don't feel one I'm not judging them. Two, I look just like them. All right. And three, they just feel comfortable.

But is it important for people? Because, you know, I told you, I said when I reached out and I said, come on the show, because when I did the question box on Instagram, I showed you the responses. The responses were, if you think about the word lawyer, and I will literally put a screenshot of the responses, it was liar, money. Somebody said, oh, shit. Somebody said divorce. It's a lot of negative perception about the fact that when they hear lawyer They think that you were trying to literally like screw them over.

Screw them over, yeah. But I still see it. I see it in my profession too. So how do you make them trust you? I mean, you got to do good work, okay? So you have to, one, you have to be a man of me. You got to be a man of your word. If you say you're going to do something, you have to do it, whether that's going to visit a client at the jail at 10 o'clock at night and it's on a Sunday. You gotta do it, okay? If you tell that person, I'm gonna do something, you have to do it, all right? That's number one. So if you are a man of your word, and if that person feels like, hey, you have their best interest, they start to gain trust, all right? And once you start to lie, you know, once you— once they pay you, you, you don't— you stop picking up the phone, uh, you showing up to court late they do not feel like you have their best interests at heart. All right, so you have to— it's something that has to be earned, it has to be gained. All right, do you practice—

so when you, you know, let's say that you got a client, and do you sit down with them? Do you have conversations pre-court? Do you ask them, do you take them through the questions the judge might potentially ask or the prosecutors might ask?

I make my clients feel 100% comfortable.

So they can tell you the entire truth.

Because tell me, I have a sit-down, an intake process where we sit down and I speak to them, you know, however long they want to talk. And this is not— I don't charge for this. All right, so some lawyers, yeah, you have to pay me, you know, $200 for a consultation. I don't charge for my consultations. All right, you come in and I mean, after 30 minutes on my website it says you have to pay me, but I've never charged a client for a consultation. Maybe maybe one time or, or something because they went, you know, they wanted— they said, well, it's your time too. Yeah, yeah. But I really don't charge clients for consultations, okay? So I'll let you come into the office and we'll sit down and you'll run through it all with me, all right? And I will make you feel the most comfortable, all right? I just naturally— I will, all right? And this is not me doing it as an act. It's— that's how I That, that's how I work. I bring you in the office and we'll talk about the case. So by the time we get to court, you're not worried at all.

But I think it's also the perception of the fact that when people hire a lawyer, 99 times out of 100, they know that they're guilty. No, that's not true.

What's the percentage? Sometimes they are scared, sometimes they are just in a bind. Sometimes they, you know, sometimes they are guilty. Sometimes they want, just need representation. They don't know how to articulate their thoughts and their words, and they don't know how to advocate for themselves, and they just want somebody else who's trained and, you know, who, that, who's trained that can do it and that does it for a living. So, you know, I've represented clients that actually did not do what they have been alleged to have committed. Yeah, they— wrong place, wrong time. Sometimes they were with somebody that actually did it and they don't want to tell on that person. Oh, they're taking— they just want to take the rap for it, or they want to see if you can get them out of this situation so they don't have to— so that other person doesn't get caught. So I, I've seen it all, and it's not 100% or 90% that they're guilty all the time.

Yeah, I'm a firm believer that in any scenario you got to get a lawyer because for sure it's, it's, I believe that it's, you know, this is a capitalistic country and everything. It's like a cycle, right? So if there is a, if there is a crime and there's going to be a lawyer, then there's going to be because everybody got to get paid.

I mean, yeah, for sure. I mean, and you want, you want someone that is trained to, to do this, doing it for you. You don't want to just go in there without the knowledge and without the experience.. And then, because there's, you know, courtrooms, very formal setting. There's certain words, there's certain procedures that you might not understand that I will understand. Okay, so you, you want somebody that's just like me. I'm not going to hire, you know, a, uh, someone that, that works at Subway to fix my car, or if he's never fixed the car. All right, I'm just not gonna do it. Because obviously you might not know what you're doing.

But what makes a lawyer a successful lawyer?

I believe what makes a lawyer successful is the amount of people you touch and the amount of people, uh, amount of people's lives that you can change. Okay, so success doesn't— most people associate success with money. I associated with how many How many lives have you changed? How many people have you touched? And that's what success looks like to me as a lawyer. All right, and when we're changing lives, we're changing lives in a way where sometimes, you know, people are stuck in jams where, you know, this— if they get found guilty or if they plead out guilty, this can derail their entire life. They might not be able to get the job they want. They might not be able to go to the school they want. Want to go to. So if you come in and you can change that, you change that person's life. So you— I associate that it's not about the money, okay? Because you can make money doing anything. True.

And I, yeah, and I think it's a wrong perception that people think that like, oh, lawyer is necessarily money. There's a lot of— well, you also do personal injury, right? So like, sure, you don't pay up front for personal injury lawyer. Yeah, for sure. I don't know why people thought that that's something you do. You don't. You get the money after the— if there is— if you won the settlement, you're gonna get the money, right? Yeah.

You only get— I only get paid if you get paid. Exactly. Yeah. And, and me, as with my law firm, I don't charge a premium. I don't charge these extravagant prices on my defense, which I could. Uh, my mentors always tell me, like, I'm charging, you know, too low for the type of work that I'm doing. I'm doing great, great work, but I'm not charging my clients these high prices. One, we live in a community where, you know, everybody is not advantageous to pay that. Okay, they're not, yeah, they're out of— not in this economy. Yeah, so, so, but they still need representation. All right, just because you can't pay for it doesn't mean you shouldn't have it.

All right, but then one might ask, if you are going to commit a crime then you kind of have to understand the consequences. You would have to pay to play anyways.

Yeah, but when you're committing a crime, paying for a lawyer is probably the last thought that runs through your head. True.

But what are people thinking about when they committing crimes?

Sometimes it's, you know, substance— they're off of substance abuse. Sometimes it's they're incompetent, okay, they have some type of mental defect. Sometimes it's economic pressures. All right, and now we're living in a society where social media wants or makes it hard for people to just live a normal life. Okay, so everybody— I mean, I'm watching kids literally 17, 16 years old, they have to have Gucci, $2,000 in their pocket. Ridiculous. All right, how are you making that money? Okay, without some— I mean, some, some 16 and 17-year-olds, they're making that money legit. But the ones that are not, how are they making it? I don't know. I don't know. They resort to criminal activity. All right, so, you know, we live in a society where women are putting pressure on young men. I've seen it. I see it all day. These women want Hermès, they want, they want their body changed, they want the nicest car. All right, and if you can't get that for them, then they're out. So men, you know, they— young men or men, whatever, they're thinking, hey, I got to be able to provide for this woman, so I'm going to do whatever I got to do to provide for this woman. And sometimes they end up crashing out. That's ridiculous.

It is. I don't understand how is that— how is the material shit is going to be in front of anything and everything? That's so—

it's instant gratification. All right, people want it now. People don't want to go to law school and go to undergrad 4 years and go to law school 3 more years and wait 7, 8 years or 10 years for their dream to come true. They want it now.

But how did you think about that when you were going to law school? Because realistically, you were— how old when you went to law school?

I was 28. 28.

So now you were 28, you know that you're not going to be making money for the next—

I graduated when I was 28. I'm sorry, I graduated law school, I went in at 25.

So 25, but still 25. That's, that's kind of like an adult. Your brain is developed by 25. So at 25 years old, now you understand that realistically for the next 3 years you're making $0 because you, you, you actually have to pay to go to law school. For sure. Right. So how do you deal with that? Because I think that's the, that's the point for that. That's a mental killer for a lot of people who are trying to become lawyers or doctors, but they understand that realistically they can't support themselves for 3 years.

You gotta know there's light at the end of the tunnel. Tunnel, all right? You got to know I'm doing this for a reason, all right? So when I went to law school, I knew specifically what I was doing it for, all right? You have to have a plan, all right? And that's with anything. It's not just with law school, it's with anything. You have to have a plan, all right? So you have to know, hey, I'm gonna go to law school for 3 years, I'm gonna get out and I'm gonna get this job, or I'm going to get out and I'm going to open up my practice, or whatever, whatever your plan is. You need to have a plan and you need to stick to that plan. But how do you—

because as a lawyer, I mean, I can only imagine you're 25. I mean, yes, you are an adult, but you're still kind of like a kid, and you're still not sure if you can conquer the world of having your own practice because that's not easy. I've worked with lawyers before. I used to work for Thomson Reuters, for Super Lawyers. I've seen lawyers, and I worked with small firms. So I worked with firms that had 1 to 10 lawyers at a firm, and it's not easy because you have to have experience, and sometimes, you know, you need mentorship. And if you're not at a big law, then you're on your own. You have to run your own business. Have your employees, have your paralegals, no other attorneys that are going to mess with you and actually work with you. And you got to provide— like, you basically provide for yourself yet again.

Well, I just— I always credit that to my mentors, all right? So I keep taking it back to them because they kind of paved the way for me to get to where I'm at, you know. Like I said, I had two very, very good mentors that took me to a— took me through a very rigorous training, okay? So, um, I watched them become and continue to be successful, so I had no other choice but to do what I was trained to do, all right? So my mind was already in— I'm, I'm different, all right? I'm like, mentally, if I, I can stick to something and I can actually see it through, and I kind of can know where I'm going to end up All right. Because I know my work ethic.

So if you were to give advice to an aspiring lawyer or somebody who is in school right now and they're thinking about it, but they're scared to make that choice because, again, financial, education, it's hard. It's not easy to pass the bar. We all know it's not. It's, it's, it's very commendable when somebody can pass the bar. My best friend is a lawyer, and I've seen her going through hell and back to pass the bar. But she works for a big law and she's scared to make that choice to go on her own. Yeah. And she's been doing it for 5 years now. Right. So what's the advice that you would give to younger generation?

I have a, I have a young, I have a mentee. He's in law school right now. He's coming up. He's an up-and-coming 2L. Mm-hmm. And he wants to come out and he'll probably work at my firm for a bit and then he'll go off and probably do his own thing. And one, just you got to grab on to somebody who has done this before. Okay, so my advice to anybody that wants to do it is, one, you gotta, you gotta be a risk taker. So you got to just do it. Two, grab on to somebody who has done it, and you don't, you don't have to invent the wheel, all right? This, you just gotta— this has already been done before by somebody. You just got to grab on to somebody that has done it and follow their steps. Listen, pay attention, be a student to the game. To this day, I have my own firm, I'm doing very, very well, but I'm a student to the game. When I go in court, I'm looking at older lawyers that have been there, and I'm watching, you know, how they're doing certain things. I'm watching how they're moving, and I'm taking that and I'm intertwining that with my own style. All right, you, you never stop learning. That's why they call this the practice of law. All right, you're continuing to practice forever. All right, this is not just, hey, I got it once and I, I don't need any other training or any other help. You know, to this day I'm still calling on my mentors or asking them different questions. How do I do this? How do I do that? All right, this never stops. So what I tell you to do is just grab on to somebody who has done it or who is doing it, all right, and become a student to the game and continue to be that.

How do they choose which practice to go into, because there's so many different practices of law that you can be a part of, right? Because I think the first thing with criminal law, I— the first thing comes to my mind is public speaking, right? Remember how everybody in school were terrified of that class? And for sure everybody had to take it, and you would see people, you know, stand up and they would freak out because it's public speaking. And if you are a criminal attorney, you have to have good public speaking, right?

First time I went in, went into court, scared shitless. What'd you do? Did it. It's like any repetition, it's like anything else, all right? Once you continue to do it and you, you do it for a long time and you practice every day and you're in court every day, then you're gonna— you'll get used to it, all right? First time I went in court and I had to stand up and make an announcement, scared, armpit sweating, I mean the whole nine. Alright, but if you do it 20 times, 30 times, and you start doing it every day, I mean, you don't— after a while, the sweats go away, alright, and you just, just, you're just doing it. So you have to do it just like anything else, alright. You only get better if you try.

But what about— I feel like for a man, especially, especially a black man, you guys have egos, and it's not a bad thing, but it's like an ego thing where you want to go and you want to do it well.

Well, you can't compare yourself to anybody. I learned that too. You have to be, you know, authentic. You got to be yourself. All right. The first time I went in court, I wanted to, you know, I saw how the other lawyers were moving. I wanted to kind of mimic that. And then I saw this one Black attorney who was himself. He was just straight up himself. He came in and he had a, he had his chain on. And this is, yeah, he, I mean, this is the only lawyer that does that. So. You would probably know who I'm talking about, and he was just authentically himself, okay? And when I saw that, I— you don't have to be like anybody else in this room. You got to be Malcolm. So from there, I just, you know, you go in and you be yourself. I don't mimic any other lawyer now, all right? I might take some things that they, you know, what that they do and intertwine them into my practice, but I don't mimic exactly what, what these people are doing. And you can't have ego in this because there's, there's always going to be somebody that's better than you. Always going to be somebody that's smarter than you. Okay. You just got to do a damn good job. All right. And you got to do the best you can and you have to prepare. All right. The best lawyers aren't the lawyers who are the smartest. It's the most— the best lawyers are the ones that are the most prepared. How long does it take you to prepare for cases? Depending on the case. Well, I mean, let's say on average, I don't know what let's say, you know, I mean, sometimes I can look at a case, all right, read an incident report, watch a couple of the videos, and, you know, go through, you know, the discovery fairly quickly, all right. But depending on the nature of the charges, okay, and the outcome that I'm, I'm shooting for, depending— it's just, it all is, it all depends. But sometimes I can look at a case and I can get it done in in 45 minutes. I heard sometimes I can— sometimes it takes me months. Yeah, because discoveries can be hundreds and thousands of pages, and sometimes discovery is a, is an incident report and two body cam videos. So, oh really? So they can—

now it can be anything?

Yeah, it just depends on the nature of the charges. It depends on, on the case. Yeah.

But how does that make you feel when in criminal law you technically are protecting killers?

I'm protecting a person, not a killer. Okay, okay. So I don't see killer, I don't see robber, I don't see thief. I see a person who needs representation. That's interesting. That's it. I don't, I don't see the word killers when I— or the word killer when I look at a client, even if they are charged with murder. I see a client who has come to me because they need a job done. Wow, okay, that's deep.

Damn, I never even thought about that.

Yeah, you can't see— the nature of the charge should not define the person, okay? So these are just words. Murder is just a word. Uh, robber, armed robbery, theft, thief, it's just a word.

Okay, that's what America loves to do. It loves to put a label on it.

It's not who the person is. And that's when you have a law— you have a great lawyer really learns his clients, all right? So being a great lawyer, you have to learn your clients. So me in particular, I mean, I, I want to learn. Sometimes we don't even— we talk about the case, but sometimes I want to know your background. I want to know what high school you went to. I don't know how many kids you have. I want to know, you know, your relationship status. All right, we talk about other things other than what you're charged with here today. We'll get to that, but I want to know who you are as a person. And then, you know, once we get to the charges, I'm representing a person by the time we get to the charges. All right, I'm representing Cal Morris. That's just a fictitious name, but yeah, I'm representing him. I'm not representing than, you know, client number 221 charged with, you know, murder. Damn.

But is that what the state is looking at those people? For sure.

So I had a conversation with— I had a case the other day, um, and I was talking to a state's prosecutor, and I told him, I said, the thing about your job is you never get to know who my client is. You're looking at a piece of paper with an incident report and that client's name, and you're already judging my client. The good thing about my job is I get to tell you who my client actually is. Oh, that's all right. So I get to tell you that, you know, he, he's been to this school, he was a star basketball player, okay? His mother may have been strung out on drugs this kind of derailed his life. I get to tell you his whole life story, all right? And then you find some type of compassion in your heart once you finally hear that. But if you don't hear that, that's why advocating for your client is so supreme, because if you don't hear that, you're looking at a sheet of paper and you're looking at a charge. That's it. That's it. You never get to know the other side. So, but don't they talk to the victims usually? They talk to the victims. Okay. Yeah, they talk, and I talk to the victims too. Oh, all right. So it's not, yeah, see, that's the thing. I get a chance to talk to the victims too. They don't get a chance to really talk to my clients. All right. Because they speak directly. I had one prosecutor, maybe two prosecutors who asked me, hey, can I come meet your client? Because the way you advocated for them, I just want to meet them. Did they change their mind after? Oh, changed the whole case. Really? Yeah. I mean, they had already gave me a good offer, but when they met my client, they— I mean, asking me to meet my client was, was great for me. I mean, that just made me feel, you know, extremely good. Uh, but meeting my client, you know, they, they could see why I advocated for them. That's dope.

So yeah, I didn't even think that that was going to be possible. Yeah, I mean, it's—

it depends on how hard you go for them. All right, and I— every one of my clients, no matter what they're charged with, they can be charged with a simple theft or they can be charged with the highest, which is, you know, murder, homicide. I'm going to advocate the same for them.

Okay, so I have a couple questions. After the law school, how do you decide whether you want to go on the prosecution side or on a lawyer side or on a defense side? Oh yeah, defense side. Sorry, I'm not—

I'm not an attorney. I'm not a lawyer.

Also, lawyer and attorney, two different things. Do you know that? Lawyer?

Yeah, lawyer is you, you went to law school and got a JD. An attorney is you passed the bar.

Come on, come on, I knew that, I knew that.

Uh, your question is how do you end up going— how do you choose if you go on the defense side? Or I mean, most— they say most great defense attorneys have been prosecutors before. Me just my upbringing, I just never— I would never be a prosecutor. I could never be charged with sending someone to jail.

But how does that process work? Because I don't understand. So you go to law school, right? You pass the bar, you become an attorney. So how do you choose the path? Is there— what drives you? No, no, but I'm just saying that, is it like you get a job with the government, basically, with the state?

You can get it. Yeah, you can do that, or you can go out and get a job with a defense firm.

And if you do the— if you go the prosecution route, what's the— I guess, like, what's the career path?

I mean, you, you go and you become, you know, an assistant prosecutor, because you don't prosecute people right away, obviously, assistant district attorney. And then depending on how long you want to stay in that position, you might move up. You end up moving up the ranks. Okay. But yeah, I mean, you stay if that's what you want to do. You're probably going Some people end up staying there, but some great prosecutors, or some prosecutors, they end up going defense, okay? Because it's like, hey, I know both sides, all right? It makes them more crafty, and I believe that as well. But myself, I had, like I said, my mentors were so good I didn't have to go prosecution and then defense, all right? They had trained me and taught me everything I needed and still teaching But yeah, so what about the money side though? Yeah, prosecutors don't get paid as much as defense attorneys, I think. I mean, I don't want to say that, okay? Uh, prosecutors, you're getting paid by the state, so you're getting the salary. All right, when you go out practice like myself, private practice, it's, it's no amount. I, I'm not my business. I'm getting paid a salary by my business, but essentially I own the business.

And you bring the clients. Yeah. You have to find the clients. For sure. In order to bring the business. For sure. In order to make the money.

If I don't— and that's another thing— if I don't produce, then I don't eat. Exactly. Okay. You're going to get a— being a prosecutor for the state, you're going to get a check regardless. Yeah. Twice a month, no matter what. All right. Me, I have to bring the client. I have to produce.

I got to go out and kill. Not kill. Hire people. Find people. Hope not kill.

Let's not use that. Yeah, let's not use that term. But yeah, I have to go out and bring the clients in.

Yeah. Damn, that's crazy. I do want to ask you. I mean, obviously the business side is tricky because I think that people have a perception, the same as black and white, right? Like they see you, they're like, oh, he got money. But they have no idea how you get money. They have no idea that you have to see a lot of cruel stuff.

Yeah, I mean, my job is not easy at all. My job requires long, long nights, separation from your family, separation from your friends, and you see, you see some things that make it hard for you to sleep at night sometimes.

So how do you deal with that? Because I can only imagine being in that field, you probably see a lot of blood, you see a lot of horrific things.

Autopsy photos, you know, I've gotten used to them at this point.

Um, are you just desensitized to it? For sure. Like a doctor, you're like, oh, that's normal.

Yeah, it's normal to me. It's not an awe moment for me. It's not like I'm surprised. It's, you know, I expect to see it.

So you don't even have like chills on your body? No, no.

There hasn't been a case when you're like— Not anymore. I think I passed that part. And I've had some real gruesome cases. I've seen some real gruesome stuff. But at this point, I'm past that part.

What was the first experience when you saw it? How did you react to it?

Uh, clinched up and just kind of like, shit. Oh, this is, this is bad. I mean, when you see a young man with his eyeball socket hanging out of his face and his tongue out of his mouth and it's just, you know, these are real photos. This is not a movie. You know, it changes, you know, it changes you.

And you don't look at people in a different realm.

So that's, that's why I'm in therapy now. I think every, every person It's not exclusive to Black, white, male, female. Every person should, you know, experience therapy at least some point in their life and continue to experience. What kind of therapy do you do? I have a therapist, and I would say it's just talk therapy.

You know, I said that on a previous episode. I said that on a previous episode that I believe that your therapist should match your background. Because that way you can relate to them. For sure. Just similar as you're saying about attorneys. So I have that belief that, so my therapist right now, she's a Russian woman. So she actually lives in Russia. Because I said, you know, I'm still, I was still born and raised there. Right. Yes. I've been living my conscious life here, but I believe that for me to be understood, I gotta talk to her. Right. Because if I talk to an American woman, she's not gonna understand your background.

No. No. Yeah. My therapist is an African American woman with a son that's a little younger than me. Okay. Yeah. And she talks to me like my mom. Mm-hmm. But she's great.

So do you feel like— how does, how does that impact— is it more of you trust her and it's a very trustworthy conversation? Sure.

I mean, I tell her everything. I tell her everything you have. For therapy to be effective, you have to. Like, why am I gonna pay this therapist— and my therapy is pretty high— why am I gonna pay this therapist this amount of money and I'm gonna lie to her? Doesn't make sense. That's just like a lawyer. Why would you go and pay me thousands of dollars and just lie, lie, lie, lie? Hmm. It's not— you're not doing it. This, this is not an effective relationship. No, it's not. So I tell my therapist everything.

Yeah, I— it's hard. It's not easy. No, it's not. Because sometimes I'm like, I feel like I'm gonna get judged.

Yeah, you're opening up and you're telling— I mean, to this point, at this point, I've told her so much, she's just— I, I know she's not— it's— but also, my therapist has seen so much, it's— and, and she tells me like, your stuff is not nearly as bad as what I've seen. So you just dealing with regular stuff as a young Black successful man who's just moving through life. How does that make you feel? I'm not judging anybody else. I have my own downfall, so I'm just what it is. Nobody's perfect. Everybody's going to have issues. Everybody's going to have problems. All right, it's up to you to deal with them, or it's up to you to make an excuse. I don't, I don't look at myself better than my clients that I represent who are charged with some serious stuff. I put us all in the same— we're in the same bowl. All right, I just deal with my issues differently. Mm-hmm. Or I decided to just to make a conscious decision on what not to do. Or I use my brain before I move or before I, before I make action. All right, but it's stuff that they can learn too. They might have— they just don't have the right person to tell them what to do and how to do it. Mm-hmm. That's why it's, it's so important just to learn from other people. Like, you can learn from somebody else's mistake. Takes. I'm a firm believer in that. Sometimes you got to bump your own head though, because my growing up, my mom used to tell me, don't do this, don't do that, don't do that. And you know, I would listen, but sometimes you still got to go out and make sure fire is hot.

And you're probably curious too, you're like, oh, why are you saying don't do that? Because now what do I not know?

My daughter, same thing, I tell her, don't do it, don't jump up on that chair because if you fall, you're gonna hit your head. Continues to do it. Sometimes she got to fall in and feel it. I try to make sure she doesn't. Of course, we try to decrease the pain that your child is going to feel, but sometimes it's like, hey, you got to know, okay, so you won't do it again.

So as a lawyer, what kind of cases you saying absolute no to?

Anything with children. Yeah, just Some stuff with children I won't touch. Just 9 times out of 10, I'm not going to touch it.

Damn, have you had some crazy requests? Yeah. What's like the craziest thing you've ever kind of like came across?

Um, I had a, a father allegedly doing something with his daughter. Oh, shit. Underage? Yeah. Oh, wow. I just won't touch it. Just, okay, I won't touch it. Damn. But yeah, I don't touch—

I mean, I have a— How do they find representation? Because I'm sure that a lot of lawyers, they have that, you know, they have that morals and values that like, okay, this is something we don't touch. And I'm sure children and women is probably like— Oh, they need representation too.

I mean, just some stuff. And like I said, I still see a person. Just for my own morality, I just don't touch. I have a daughter. I got a 3-year-old daughter. Okay, so some stuff, I just— it's just like a no-go for me. All right, and I still look at that person. I still don't judge that person. Okay, I just don't want to be responsible for them.

But when you say I don't judge that person, I still— I mean, we're still human. You're still gonna— it sounds really good. But you're still gonna be like, damn, that's fucked up. Like, come on now.

For sure. I mean, a lot of stuff is fucked up, right? Okay, but I'm still not judging you. It's not— that's not my role to judge you. I might think a way about your actions, okay, but I'm not judging you as a person.

You're just basically observing, and you're like, okay, this is— it is what it is.

Not even saying that. I just— you made a very bad decision. Mm-hmm. Okay, but it's probably some good in you somewhere. Do you think that there is good in those people? For sure. I just think they're sometimes placed in unfortunate positions.

That is very, very true. Yeah.

So, and like I said, you know how many people are roaming this world, specifically, you know, are roaming Atlanta with mental defects. Oh, yeah. Just not all the way there. You would be surprised.

I was married to one. I was married. It wasn't in Atlanta, but I was married to somebody who was refusing to take medicine. Yeah. And he was, he was a Marine Corps veteran and a bomb blew up next to him and he said, I'm not taking medicine. But the person, when I found out that that man had 9 criminal charges, was stealing, was charged with domestic violence many, many times. Like, you— like, they lost count at the point where they would take him in and be like, ah, you again. Wow. And I found out after, after. So I was like— but I didn't get enough time to annul the marriage.

Yeah, mental, mental health is serious. It's serious. It is not— it's not a joke. So yeah, people who have committed crimes and who commit crimes, you never know what they're going through in their head, okay? So, and that's why a lot— I mean, I tell my friends, I tell my family this— be cautious on how you speak to people out in public. Yeah. All right, be cautious on how you approach people, all right? Because I've seen clients who just was having a bad day and just flipped.

It's very true though, because I feel like it's a, it's, it's a very aggressive nature as is, especially if you go to certain areas and you got to be on your P's and Q's. But I feel like just it's, it's, it's kind of like, again, prejudice that you're already in the area and people are terrified as is. And so it's kind of like high— it's the whole like you're just kind of, you, you, you're so tense already, right? And then, you know, this whole everybody got guns and all that.

Sure. You got to treat everybody with some level of respect.

But how do you explain it to people? What do you mean? I feel like especially if people have had experiences, if they are coming from certain areas, they're already in defense mode regardless, right?

But that's— you can be in defense mode and still treat people with respect. All right, being in defense mode does not have anything to do with treating people with respect. All right, I'm in defense mode I think I, I look at people because of what I've— and this is another reason why I'm in therapy, all right? My first perception of somebody is going to be, let me protect myself from whatever. I don't know, all right? And that's people who, you know, when I'm out in public, people approach me, or, you know, you come talk to me while I'm pumping gas, or you this— I'm just always thinking, you know, what is this person, what, what is this person. And sometimes genuine, sometimes they just genuinely want to, you know, speaking to you, maybe asking you for something or whatever, and they, they mean no harm. All right, so my therapist has been talking to me about, you know, kind of not being so defensive. All right, initially when you meet people, all right, you shouldn't always think people are out to get you. Or people have— don't have your best interests at heart. All right, because that's not how everybody in this world is, or everybody in, in Atlanta is. I mean, you got some real nice people. I mean, you have some real— you have some people that are out to do that, or are out to rob, kill, steal, and destroy. But you really have some good people in this world who, you know, mean the best for you. Or want the best for you.

Yeah, it's like energy. I feel like if you constantly think about that, you're going to attract it, right? And it's just, it's not going to leave you. Yeah, it's the same thing. Then we can apply that concept to anything and everything in life specifically. It's like when women say men are all trash. Well, you're going to attract all trash because that's what you think.

That's what— yeah, it's your belief. The power of the tongue. Yeah. Yeah.

So do you believe it's important to speak?

For sure. The word? For sure. I mean, every morning I wake up and I look myself in the mirror and I say my affirmations. It's important.

What do you say? What do you tell people? Because people need to know that people who look like you, they can still be normal, say affirmations, pray, that like it doesn't make you less than a—

less of a man.

No, I mean, what are some affirmations that you're saying?

You're great. You're going to have a good day today. All right. You're going to do good. Okay. You're not scared. To walk in this courtroom and speak. You are gonna be happy today. You are not going to let anything bother you. You are gonna get out here and prosper today. And that's not necessarily what I say, but that's the gist of, you know, you're just talking to yourself, okay? You look yourself in the mirror and you just talking to yourself. All right. And that kind of shapes your day. All right. But my affirmations are different every other day. Okay. Or every day.

One of my friends, he actually did my episode, but we had to hide it because of the whole YouTube thing. He came on the show. Shout out to Stevie Bags. And he taught me this thing. I was having a horrible week. I mean, I was just depressed as hell. Something was going on and I was just down bad. And he taught me this thing. He said, every time You wake every day, you wake up, you look in the mirror and you say, I am happy. I know happy. I live happy, right? Or like happiness, whatever, however. So if you say, I am wealth, I know wealth, I live wealth, that's how you attract a lot of things. So removing the not from there, you know, saying that I am walking into the courtroom, I own the courtroom, right? You know, I, I win the case.

I know. Yeah, I'm not, I'm not scared.

Right. No, don't say I'm not scared.

I am brave. Yeah. Or I am brave.

So see how you switch that for sure to the positive mindset and you kind of, you trick your brain into thinking that that's, that's what you truly are. Right. Because you are. It's just sometimes we, I feel like we stay humble to an extent where we don't want to speak as if, you know, I go through the same thing too. I just, I overthink so much sometimes that it's scary. I can create narratives that, man, I would have been a great lawyer because my imagination would have gone, woof. For sure. I would have been like, you said this word, let me— this is how I interpret this word, especially in this country, because everything is up to interpretation. Right. Yeah. Self-defense.

And those are all good. Those are all arguments, right? Yeah. That you can make. So, yeah, exactly.

So I think you have to be creative as a lawyer when you go and—

oh, for sure— defend people. Yeah. How do you interpret the law? It's different how somebody else may interpret the law.

And that's, I think that's the power of a lawyer.

And that's what makes good arguments.

Yeah. So when you argue with your wife, are you, do you usually win the arguments or no?

Uh, yeah, so I do. Uh, but sometimes I just let her have it. All right, so sometimes, you know, I let, I let Jessica have it sometimes. She, you know, me and my wife, we don't argue like that. We argue, but You— the thing about having a partner is you got to have somebody who understands you, right? All right, so when I come home from work, when I come home from the office, my wife might not talk to me for 45 minutes, you know. She'd give me a hug, give me a kiss, whatever, and because I don't want to be talked to, all right? And she understands that, all right? And she may put my plate out or whatever have my food ready, whatever. But she might not engage in a, in a thorough conversation with me until I'm ready because I've been doing this all day. Hmm. All right, you just have to reset into the family mode. So she respects that and she understands that. All right, and I understand certain things about her. All right, so having somebody who, you know, really understands you and knows you, you're not going to argue that much much. All right, yeah, we have— we, well, we argue, but when we argue, it's over— it's over small stuff. We argue over, over simple stuff.

So when you approach an argument, do you approach it as a lawyer, or you're like, I'm a husband now?

No, I step out of— I step out of— sometimes I go lawyer mode, sometimes I go lawyer mode. She don't— she don't— she doesn't like that. But I don't think anybody would like that. Some— I, I try to just I try to go human husband mode, okay? But I can get lawyer mode on.

You better go husband mode because that's not fair.

She didn't go to law school. I just, I go soft. I go soft. And a lot of times I make her think she— after, after our argument, sometimes she, she may look at me and look and say, oh yeah, you, you know, you were right about that. Or you, yeah, you are right. You moment, and then I know I won. I don't, I don't say, yeah, I won, but then I know I got her.

But you guys are a power couple, a lawyer and a doctor.

For sure. That's amazing. Yeah, I mean, we work hard, extremely, extremely hard.

What would your daughter have to be?

Whatever she wants. A president? Yeah, whatever she wants. And I'm not— and that's the thing, I'm not going to put any— my daughter can be— I'm not gonna put any stress on my daughter. Okay. Okay. My daughter really has the capability to be anything she wants to be in this world. Whether that's a lawyer, a doctor, a teacher. I don't really care what she wants to do. I care, but I'm not putting any pressure on her. You want her to be happy. I want— that's it. I agree. And she will have all the resources she needs. That's amazing. She can do whatever she wants to do and she will have a dad that will take care of her if she doesn't for the rest of her life.

That's important. It's very important to be a dad for sure, because a lot of times, unfortunately, especially in Atlanta, it's a big baby mama, baby daddy culture. Yeah, it's, it's very sad. Some people are just not invested in their families like that. So it's amazing.

No, my, my My daughter's happiness is probably, you know, my top 3 priorities in this life, in this world. I love that. You know, what she, you know, what drives her every day, you know, seeing a smile on her, making sure she has all the resources to exceed and excel anywhere she's at. The type of school she, you know, she wants to go, everything, you know, I make sure Scottie's well taken care of.

Oh, her name is Scotty? Yeah. Oh, that's so cute. What about kids? Do you work with kids? Do you mentor kids? For sure. I work with—

so I take a lot of pro bono cases for kids around like the 17 to 25 range. Not all, all these cases are not pro bono, but I take some, you know, pro bono cases for kids that are that age and that have just made one bad decision and they just need help getting out of it or navigating through it. But I've also, you know, I work with a mentorship program. I don't work directly with it, but we do some cases together. Next Level Boys Academy, very, very good mentor, mentorship program here in Atlanta. What do they do? It's for kids 17 to 25 who have been, you know, and it's not all the kids in the program have been charged with a crime. Some kids are just experiencing, you know, life battles. And Gary, which is the owner of the program, he, you know, shapes and reforms these kids' life. And man, it's the judges, everybody respects the Gary program. Gary's program, uh, it is really— it really makes an impact in these kids' life. I go and I sit in on the classes. We've done cases together where I sent some of my clients to his program. That was a condition of their release. They had to go into his program. So yeah, wherever I can help, I try to— I try to be that mentor. Like I said, I have one mentee right now, maybe two this summer that are going to be following me around. And my one mentee that's in law school, that's like, he's going to be great one day. I really have poured a lot into him. I'm going to continue to pour a lot into him. His name is Amani Murph. Very, very smart young man. Just like, he reminds me so much of myself. Went to Morehouse too.

Oh really?

Yeah. Yeah, great, great young man. Respectful. I mean, I'd do anything for that kid. He's good. That's good.

Yeah, I used to— one of my friends, Josh Powell, he goes to a lot of schools in Atlanta, especially underprivileged schools where I remember I went with him and there were a couple of kids that had income monitors, right? Yeah. And when I met them, I'm like, man, wrong person, the wrong time. It's just, it's like you can tell that it's not their fault. It's truly not their fault because I'm speaking to this kid and it's like one of the brightest kids I've ever met in my life. And I'm like, man, this is so crazy that this is what happened to this kid. I mean, God, I'm sure had a plan. I don't know what it was, but it is gut-wrenching to see what happens to children just because of whether their parents were not there.

Yeah, the poverty, whatever, you know, condition that they were put in, or again, wrong place, wrong time, wrong place, that they're the people who they hang out with. I mean, all that is important in a child's upbringing. It is.

Okay, so, but also it's the values, you know, sometimes the— you were told that you got to stick around your people, you got to be loyal, and sometimes people who you're around, they are not good people because they're doing a lot of bad things, and you just kind of you ought to them to be loyal.

Loyalty shouldn't come at the cost of your demise.

I agree. I think it's— there's a, there's a, there's a fine line.

You draw a line. Yeah. Okay. All right. Yeah. You draw a line. You can be loyal all you want and you draw that line when it comes down to, you know, you putting yourself in the positions that you might not get out from, get get away from. I've had and I've seen so many, whether it's through me, my colleagues, I've seen so many young men just like you say in positions or at the wrong place at the wrong time, hanging around the wrong crowd. Mm-hmm. And truly you have to know who you're around. You have to pick and choose your friends, when to be around these people, and you got to love people sometimes from afar. All right. It's nothing wrong with having friends that may be involved in whatever, but you love them from afar. All right.

Yeah. Unfortunately. Yeah. I have one friend like that who did commit a crime, and it was my first time going to the court, seeing shackles and orange suits. And it's just like, well, one day we're in Miami together. The second day we're in the courtroom. Yeah. And I was just taken aback because I've never seen that before. And I'm like, damn.

Man, I got a lot of friends that have been involved in stuff and maybe currently still. I got a lot of friends that are not lawyers or not on that, you know, this, this path. And it doesn't— we are still the same people, okay? I don't judge them, they don't judge me, it's whatever. But I love them from afar sometimes, all right? I'm not gonna be out to 3 in the morning with y'all partying. You just know that just, that's just not gonna be me. All right, now I might pop out every now and then in controlled spaces, but I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna be out in the street 3, 4 in the morning just, just doing whatever.

That's another perception of people. That's another perception of people, that people think that lawyers are just outside, you know, they're outside, they're doing drugs, they're just, they're blowing their money away.

I don't think that's a perception, but we live in a city where, you know, everybody parties. Mm-hmm. All right, I don't— I stopped partying. And you were young. Yeah, so I stopped partying. I don't— I'm not really outside anymore. Now, if I go out, it's birthday party, you know, somebody's birthday. It's not in the club, but it's like a birthday setting or something something like that. But I don't remember the last time I've been out in the club.

All right, is it because you're a family man?

It's not even because— it's because of my profession. All right, so I worked very hard for the reputation that I have as an attorney, okay? And I don't want people to downplay their reputation once they— once they see you out partying. So once they see you out partying party and drinking and, you know, having a great time, whatever. And it's nothing wrong with having a great time, it's just stock just goes down. Because why do you— you, if you were choosing a lawyer, would you want to choose the lawyer that you're— that, that is out to 4 in the morning partying and drinking with you? No, because I want the lawyer to be fresh in the courtroom. You're not going to respect them, right? So I learned that, all right? I learned that very quickly. And partly because of my mentors taught that to me. So I don't go out. I'm in the house, or if I'm out, it's not in Atlanta, right? And I do agree, partying in the same community that I practice law in.

Oh, hell no. I mean, even for me too, I— somebody gave me this advice early on. They said, if you are gonna go out and be out with people, You got to understand that nobody's going to pay you to do appearances. People are not going to pay you to see you. No. And now you become way too accessible.

And that's not the goal. Yeah. Access. Yeah.

And access is important because there's proximity to you. Right. And it's not like I don't— I want to touch as many people as possible. Right. But at the same time, I don't know if I can give access to me, like in person and proximity. I'm not doing that.

No, you shouldn't. Shouldn't, because then why would somebody pay you to do anything when they say, oh, I'm gonna see her Saturday at, uh, Buckhead Saloon anyway? Been there one time in my life, right?

I never used that as an example, but right, yeah, yeah.

So yeah, I limit myself. I mean, I don't remember the last time I went out to the club, but I limit the stuff that I, I do, especially in this community. And I represent a lot of people here in Atlanta, so I don't want to party with my clients, you know. I just— and there's nothing wrong with it. It's nothing wrong with partying and having a good time. It doesn't make me any better than anybody else. It's just I worked hard for a reputation that I'm trying to keep.

I also value my sleep.

Let's be for real. For sure.

I value my rest. 'Cause not always do I get to rest.

That's another, yeah, that's another thing. I wake up at 5 every morning, so 4:35, so.

I know, I got a call at 7 in the morning. I'm like, what the fuck? Don't call me at 7, it's too early.

I have to, I have to get my sleep and I can't, and in the courtroom, in the practice of law, you have to be sharp. Mm-hmm. All right, you have to be sharp. You can't be lazy, you can't be drowsy, you can't be hungover. You have to be sharp. All right. What time is the earliest court case?

8 o'clock. 8 o'clock?

Yeah. Wow. Damn.

What time is the last one?

I mean, I've had 3 o'clock. I think it's the last time they schedule, but I've been in court to 6 o'clock, you know, late. Sometimes some judges say, you know, we'll leave when we're done.

Hmm. All right. Let me ask you a couple more questions and we're going to wrap it up. What do people misunderstand most about the criminal justice system?

People think, okay, so guilty, not guilty does not mean innocent. Oh, okay, explain. Okay, just because someone gets a not guilty verdict doesn't mean they didn't do it. And that doesn't mean justice was served.

Okay, what does it mean then?

Facts were probably on that person's side. They had very good representation. There were some loopholes in the case. Uh, their lawyer prepared extremely well. Several different factors. All right. Hmm, okay. And another, I mean, the most important thing probably is the justice, the criminal justice system is not fair. All right, people talk about it, talk about it. People think it's fair because people, they always use this word fairness. All right, but understand that there's bias. That goes on. There's corruption. There's a lot, you know, when you finally get in these spaces, you know, you start to see that this stuff is not— it's not— it's not fair, okay? It's not. I've seen, you know, this whole entire thing, I believe, is ran by money.

I told you, capitalism.

Yeah, I've seen a client go pro se and the prosecutor give him an offer that was extremely outrageous, okay, as soon as you hire an attorney, that offer is cut in half before that attorney even says anything.

Pro se means that they represented themselves?

Yeah. Okay. When, as soon as you spend money, hire an attorney, you get the respect you need. Yeah. The judges respect you now. They see that you're taking it serious. And the prosecutors, they don't come— this, this same offer that they gave you when you pro se, they're not going to give that to the attorney that you hire. Hmm. All right, you're going to get a way, way better offer.

Do you think some cases they're done so people— because, you know, there's some media cases, huge cases. I don't even know how they pick and choose which ones are going to be media cases, but I feel like some cases are done or Controversial cases, but they're also— it's kind of like, let's set the example.

Yeah, certain cases are broadcasted to shock the community. Mm-hmm. All right, to keep people from committing crime, showing people that, hey, if you come to this community and stir up some mess or get involved in something, this is what's going to happen to you. Mm-hmm. All right, some, some of these cases are just sparked because race is such a big thing right now where, you know, anytime there's a, a Black in a Black killing done with another, with a white man or a white person, it's going to spark some type of controversy. Anytime there's an African-American male, young male, that gets murdered, it's going to start some controversy when there, when there's another race that does it. Mm-hmm. Okay, now when it's a black-on-black crime, they're gonna make the news, the local news. It's not gonna make national news. Mm-hmm. But let it be, you know, a cop killing an African American or vice versa, or, you know, another race killing an African American or African American killing another race, it's gonna spark some type of controversy.

Yeah, I remember when I was in school, because I used to study documentary in school, school. And I don't know, do you remember the, the movie 13 by Ava DuVernay?

It was on Netflix, I think.

So yeah, it was how the American—

yeah, yeah, yeah, I watched 13.

Yeah, for sure. It was the 13th Amendment, for sure. And how they were saying that majority of criminals in America are Black, and then they actually showed the stats and they did the numbers and it was the complete opposite. Yeah, that it was like the majority of criminals in America were actually white.

Yeah, that's not, that's not true. That's not true that the majority of criminals in America are Black. I don't, I don't know the statistics right now, but it's not true.

There's no way it's true. Yeah, because it's just, just the, the ratio of how many Black people in America and how many white people in America, that alone doesn't align with the stats.

Crime is committed by every race. Exactly. Every race commits crime.

But what's the benefit of them pushing those stats and then pushing that narrative on people? Why?

Because we live in a racist world, okay? This, this world is racist, okay? You look at our president— not to get into those, you know, I mean, but you don't want to look at him.

Conversation scared.

We— yeah, we live in a, we live in a racist world, okay? So they are— I think those, those things are done because they, they want to say scratch that, all right? Just, we live in a racist world, okay? I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna go into that, but yeah, we just, that's why, all right? But when people, and people believe whatever they hear and see, you actually, when you actually do the research on this stuff, all right, you will see that these facts and these statistics are not, not true, okay? But people don't read. And this is not Black, white, whatever. It's people in general. In general, they don't read. They just don't read. They don't do their research. If they see it on TikTok or Twitter or Instagram, they believe it is true. Okay. And when we went to school, remember, we—

because I think we went to school around the same kind of years, right? We had to actually read the articles and all of the papers that we were writing essays on, for sure. And we had to take out—

we had to cite the sources, right? You have to under— and you need to understand reading comprehension. All right, you have to understand the stuff you're reading. All right, people want to listen all day. They want to listen to what somebody else who probably is only doing it just for, you know, clickbait or whatever, saying whatever just so he can get some likes and some views. They listen and say, oh yeah, I heard him say that on Instagram, I heard that on Instagram. When— but when you actually read, you will find out that probably more than half of this stuff that's being portrayed on these social media networks, it's not true. It is not true.

Yeah, I agree, because it's like everything is a highlight.

We live in a highlight reel. I don't believe any— I don't believe anything that I see on— now, some stuff, if I've fact-checked it, then yes, but I don't believe anything that I see on social media.

I like to do research. I will go into ChatGPT because now it's easier to summarize a lot of cases or like a lot of different things. In cases, I mean, just in general, whatever it's an article or a book or whatever. Obviously I'll read a book, but before I read the book, I'll be like, okay, give me a summary so I'll know what I'm getting myself into.

See, I like X. I like what X does, which is the Twitter. I like what X does because they will put like a synopsis right under something that is untrue. It says this is not true. This did not happen. Boom, boom, boom. Like they will let you know, like this is some bullshit, don't look at this, or don't believe this. But yeah, I mean, they've made it easy now to fact-check anything. So people don't really have to get a book and read. They go online and like you said, ChatGPT it, and they can fact-check their stuff. Just people are lazy.

Oh, they don't even read what the ChatGPT is spitting out. Listen, it's very At this point, I don't even know where we're going with it. But do you— what's your future like? Where are you trying to go? So first, you're a lawyer. You do have your nonprofit, right? Your foundation.

Yeah, we do a lot of give back.

So— and we're going to do some work together.

Yeah, for sure. I mean, I told you I'm all for that. I was born a mission baby. That's what I really like doing. You tell them. What's the mission baby? Yeah. So I was born in Cameroon, West Africa, while my parents were doing missionary worked there. My mom was teaching and my dad was doing dentistry. Okay. Uh, yeah, so they were on a mission trip and I was born. So that has been like the root and the foundation of my practice and the foundation of like what I'm doing, just giving back, helping the, uh, underdeserved, the underdeserved. And yeah, just kind of, yeah, that, that's what drives me. But yeah, what's Next is I plan to probably do this for— I don't know, I'll do this for a minute and then I plan to probably run for mayor. Okay. Yeah. And that's the first time I've ever— like, people that's close to me, they know that. This is the first time I've ever said it out loud.

You have to manifest it. For sure. And you have to start attracting. I think you have to start building that likeness and image where people know that this is a real human, because that's a whole different layer of perception when you go into politics. Yeah, because now, you know, you're out there to get somebody's corruption. That's a whole—

I mean, I mean, I walk in court now and all the deputies and the sheriffs, they always say that, and you remind me of the mayor, you remind me of the mayor. So this has been something, and I never say anything to them about it. I just say, yeah, I heard that before. But my friends and, you know, people that are close to me, they know that's my end goal. That's good.

You have a goal.

For sure. I've always had a goal. I always have a plan, and I'm always 3 steps ahead of my plans. That's good.

See, I feel like you define the Black excellence. You know, I think that's important to acknowledge. Because especially Atlanta, Atlanta is Black Hollywood. It's Black Mecca. It's such a— and I think it's such a powerful place for that. And it bothers me that people have such a negative perception of especially like attorneys and that white is more superior than Black, which is the most ridiculous thing in the world.

Yeah, but I tell people, sit down with a Black attorney, okay? Inquire about hiring a Black attorney. Okay? Actually hire a Black attorney. All right. And see how that Black attorney fights for you. Mm-hmm. Okay.

What are the things that people need to look at when they're hiring an attorney? Competence.

Mm-hmm. Get you an attorney. And I always say this, you have to have an attorney that cares about people, about you. All right. If you have any indication that your attorney just does not care leave him where he's at. Okay, one, you should always get you an attorney that just cares about people, cares about you, cares about your case, cares about your family, cares about, you know, what you like to do, cares about your kids. All right, uh, and then you look at competence. Okay, get you an attorney that is competent, has resources, experience, Um, yeah, I think those are the top two. An attorney that can— that has a track record. Look at what other people are saying about you, okay? Those Google reviews, those are, those are real. You should, you should look at those. They're definitely real. So yeah, I mean, you have to, but everybody will have their own different experience with, with, with that attorney. But look at the things that they are saying that become repetitive about that person. All right, so yeah, I mean, I pride my office on, you know, knowing my clients. All right, then I pride my office on communication, and I pride my office on, you know, kind of knowing the case, knowing the facts. All right, and really spending some time with my client each. I mean, it's hard to do because you got— I mean, I have well over 400 clients, so it's hard to split that time up. But, you know, each person should feel treated equally. Yeah. And that's why my wife and my family kind of know that they sacrifice that time with me because they know that I'm, I'm going— I, I'll be up at 5 and I might not I come back home until 10 some nights.

But you better take them on really nice vacations. Okay, a couple times a year.

Yeah, we do. I mean, my— yeah, my— they're well taken care of. All right. So yeah, we, we enjoy it. My family is well taken care of, but they understand that comes with a price. Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

It's not always glamorous to make the money. They think that it's It's such a glamorous thing that, you know, you just, you just make the money, you're going to throw them in the air and there's no work behind it. Same as realtors. People don't understand there's so much paperwork that's involved with this. Just, just the amount of commitment that you have to the job that you have is crazy.

Oh, and, and the penalty, you know, the consequences of not being prepared when you represent somebody whose liberty is on the line are so grave that this is a job that you cannot play with. All right, you can't, you, you can't half-ass this. All right, I mean, and you have attorneys that, that do, but you cannot play with this profession, and especially criminal law. It's too much on the line. It's too much. So this is something that I don't, I, I don't laugh and giggle with. This is not something that I just, oh yeah, I don't care, I wake up tomorrow and look at it right before— no, I'm going to put in the amount of work that this case requires because I know that if I don't, and this person is dependent on me to do that, I know if I don't, this person might be subject to, to, you know, their liberty being taken away. Yeah. Yeah, their property being taken away, you know. Their dignity sometimes taken away. So this is— and just let them knowing that they just have a good lawyer and good representation is always good. When your client walks in there and he's like, I'm not worried about a thing because I know that you got me, that's a great feeling. But with that feeling comes with a lot of, a lot of work and responsibility. Responsibility, for sure. Yeah. Well, thank you so much.

This was great. Thank you.

Thank you for— thank you for having me.

I appreciate that. You, you've really showed a different side of a— just not even attorney, but the definition of a Black attorney that I think that's why I truly love Black community, because the level of care is not compared to anything else. I've never experienced so much care from the community as I've experienced from Black community, for sure. It's so different.

And this doesn't take away from— and don't— this doesn't take away from, you know, white, the white, my white colleagues, okay? Or, you know, this doesn't take away from them because I have, like I said, I have some really, really— it's some really very good white attorneys here. Yeah, but there's also some very good Black attorneys that people need to seek and look into, and we cannot overlook them.

Yeah, you can't.

You have to highlight because we've all worked very hard to be in this position. Okay. You deserve to, and we deserve to be in this room, and you belong in the room.

You earned the spot in the room just like anybody else, for sure. So I think it's important that You know, when people think about justice, they don't have the image of a white attorney or a white middle-aged man. No, I don't. I don't. I don't think that that should be equal to justice.

No. And that's— I'm changing the narrative. I want to be the one to kind of change the narrative of what a successful attorney looks like. Exactly. All right. And, and you're doing it. And that's, that's why I'm so cautious and so strong on how I present myself and what I do when I get in the courtroom and how I advocate for my client. Because I, I want to go from being, and I have went from being, a Black lawyer to a good lawyer. Yeah. I don't want people to just, oh, it's a Black. Yeah, he's just, he's a good lawyer. He's just a lawyer. Yeah.

Yeah. I think, yeah, it's important to acknowledge and it's also important to understand that A lawyer is a lawyer, for sure. You all pass the same bar exam, for sure, and that thing is not easy. And I'm going to emphasize that it's not easy because if you look at the questions, you'd be like, goddamn, for sure, it's confusing, for sure. Well, thank you so much for coming on. I hope you guys enjoyed this episode. I know this was a very different episode, but support Malcolm. Malcolm has a lot of, you know, he's doing his foundation. You are hiring clients, right? If you do need support or representation, we're always taking clients.

Yeah, my office is open 7 days a week. My phone is always on. I've had the same cell phone number since I was in 5th grade. Wow. So I haven't changed. Yeah. So my— if you have that cell phone number, you can always call it. But my office number is everywhere. Yeah. I'm, I'm that lawyer who will pick up, you know, my cell phone on a Sunday. Sorry, my wife gets mad at it, but it's the nature of the business. So yeah, always taking clients. And if you need representation—

and also Malcolm does personal injury and some business law too, so you can just call the office and you can inquire if you do want to hire representation. But thank you guys so much for watching. I hope you learned a thing or two. And, um, like, share, comment, subscribe, and we'll see you in the one. Thank you, thank you. Oh damn, that was long, huh? How was—

how long was it? Was it good? It was good. Okay, how long? It was like an hour, probably like an hour 30. Wow.

Yeah, was it good? It was good. It was good.

Gave us some really solid information, um, talk about criminal laws, talk about just upbringing in um, just Atlanta and stuff like that. It's cool. You're gonna go around from here, definitely. Yeah, for sure, for sure. So, um, yeah, man, yeah, that was a good one. Yeah, I liked it. Yeah, for sure. Uh, thank you, man. That was good.

I think that was good.