EP 27 Chiropractic part 2

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Okay, then we're going to do a 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, beginning. Hey, Haley, how are you?

Good. Good morning. How are you?

I'm good. Thank you for jumping back in for our little chiropractic wrap up podcast.

Yeah, thanks for having me again.

Sadly, Brian was being overrun by a bunch of crazy, crazy unruly teenagers and he ditched us. I'm pretty sure he is tied up and locked up in a closet and his children are like maybe flipping him some food or something. But he can't join us. He's not allowed, apparently.

Oh my gosh, that is hilarious.

Poor Brian. I know he's leaving us hanging, but it's okay. I'm sure the teenagers will release him in due time. Well, we wanted to bring you back in because we did our fabulous chiropractic conversation the last podcast, but we felt like there was just maybe some other wrap up things that we wanted to do. So this will be a short session, but one that we feel like maybe left some lingering questions that need to be answered for people about chiropractic care. And so we thank you for joining us once again on a Sunday morning.

Yeah, this would be great. Think we'll answer some like basic beginner. Beginner Cairo Q and A.

Yes. So, you know, we're going to ask. We'll just go into this a little bit. Like we don't even know what we're doing. Like, what, what would somebody look like or look for? Ask what are some kind of general questions you confront when there's a new person that's never had chiropractic treatment before?

Yeah, I mean, I think the biggest question, you know, if I have a new, a newer patient coming in and I want to just like know about their experience with chiropractic, I will straight up ask them, like, how familiar are you with chiropractic? And you know, I get most people that are like, this is my first time. And then I'm definitely more, you know, explaining things more in detail, letting them know exactly what chiropractors do since they aren't, if they aren't familiar with.

You guys just twist people up and crack.

Yeah, exactly. That's like, yeah, that's everyone's like, I'm just, I'm just here to get cracked. Like, I feel like I hear that all the time or, or it's the total opposite end of the spectrum where it's like, I'm in pain, but I'm very scared to like, have any type of cracking adjustment. So, you know, I always, I always let people know, like, I can only speak for myself, but there's so many different ways to go about chiropractic and there's so many different things that we do and that we're taught outside of just adjustments that can be beneficial to people. I mean, I have people that come in that are like, I don't want any type of cracking adjustment. And I'm like, okay, I got you. So, yeah, I definitely see both ends of the spectrum. But I think the most basic thing, if someone were to ask me, you know, if an alien came down from Mars and was like, what is chiropractic? I think I would tell them that we diagnose. So diagnose means figuring out a root cause, figuring out a specific problem, and treat that with different types of spinal manipulations, AKA adjustments. For me, I also use different soft tissue treatments. And our long term goal is the prevention of disorders in the musculoskeletal system. So that's the biggest thing with chiropractic is preventing things from happening, preventative care. And I feel like we see that a lot in the holistic world. Like we aren't just going from one little fire to the next, like putting out one fire, putting out the next, and, you know, following symptoms. We're finding that root cause, we're helping, you know, if that's pain, if that's a neuropathy, if that's, you know, whatever it may be, we're treating it. And then our long term goal is preventative care, which I feel like, you know, massage, pt, all that stuff, it's like that's what we're all striving for, right?

And unfortunately, a lot of people only come in for that at a point where they're already in pain or they've had injury, or they've been through so many other options that haven't been working for them. They're kind of desperate to find anything to help them. So let's say, what do you look for? Let's say, how do you get people in to work with you that aren't in an injury situation, since that's so common when they finally make the, the, the effort? I mean, so so many things are like that. Like, how do we get people to be aware and start paying attention to their body ahead of time before they need it?

Yeah, I mean, I think that only normally happens in pediatric cases. Unfortunately. I feel like very rarely, you know, I haven't been practicing too long, but very rarely do I have someone come in that's just like, I'm not really in any pain. I just feel like chiropractic would be good. But when I do have someone coming in and they have, you know, minimal issue, like maybe just some lower back tightness or neck tightness, I always try to show them, you know, whether that's on a spine model or I actually have them feel it themselves, the restrictions in a specific joint. So like I mentioned in the last podcast, I use a technique called motion palpation, which is testing the movement of joints. Whether that's me putting force into the joint or showing them that they have restricted range of motion. I'll show them that and I'll be like, hey, do you feel how on this right side there's barely any movement and on this left side there's tons of movement. And I think that that realization and actually feeling the difference between the two sides is what shows people, like, oh, this is something that I should be paying attention to. This is discrepancy from. From side to side. And this is what could potentially be contributing to my pain. So I think that that is one of the biggest things that I feel like I do well in showing people. This is what we're treating. This is why we're treating it and actually giving them that, you know, I guess it's not a visual, but that. That feeling of the discrepancy between side to side. Because there always is.

Yeah, it's always best when they can feel it. Like when I do, like gate work or just soft body tissue work. Soft body tissue. Soft tissue body work.

It's Sunday morning. We get our words confused.

Hey, I don't even need a day excuse anymore. I talk around, you know those kitchen magnet games. Like you have those poetry things. Kind of like my normal language, like, my sentences are kind of all over. The words are all over the place. And it maybe takes me a couple of minutes to, like, let me rearrange those. I think I need to do some neuro updating exercises. When that happens, I can kind of realign my nervous system to my vocal patterns. But that's. That's a whole nother podcast anyway.

Yeah, yeah, different guest, different guests.

But yeah, we have to, like, obviously somebody seeing and Feeling. I don't know how many times I have people come in. It's like, the majority of my people have an issue, and they are like, I need this work done. And that worked on and I'll be working on there, and I'll work on something else that I know is kind of myofascially connected or neurologically connected to, say, the shoulder. And we're working on the, you know, the right shoulder is the problem. Working on left hip. And they're like, oh, my gosh, I had no idea, you know, that that was sore. Or I can feel that. That myofascial stretch when you push here or there. So just that awareness of even if they're out, they don't have pain. But even when they do have pain, it's like there are other reasons why your body may be showing up with pain or dysfunction that you're not aware of. And pointing that out to them is the whole thing. Right. We're not trying to, you know, we're not selling snake oil or anything. We're just like, here's really what's going on with you. And their revelation of wow, there. I can feel that, and I understand it. They're so much more open to addressing it then, obviously.

Yeah, I think that, I mean, that is what makes it so much different than, you know, Googling. Googling your symptoms. Like, I feel like people come in all the time and they're like, well, I'm pretty sure this problem is caused by my. My tight glutes or my underactive glutes or, you know, something like that. Which, of course, that may be a piece of the puzzle, but the. What we are good at and should be good at as providers is taking all of the pieces of the puzzle and putting them together and making and constructing that treatment plan so we're hitting it from multiple angles and not just treating one little symptom in a complex issue.

Yeah, I love, I love. I love the University of Google. I call it the U of G. Yeah. Right. I love that. And I honestly love it when clients come in with having done that. Cause I certainly would have. I would do it myself if I was.

Absolutely.

So I love that they already have a base of conversation and then that just kind of a launching point of deeper education for them. So I'm.

Yeah.

And I'm not. I don't think that you were, but I love. I'm never intimidated when somebody comes in with the U of G education.

No, I think it's a good. It's a good way to like, dive into the history even more. Like.

Yeah.

Because if, you know, I feel like. And you've probably experienced too. There's like the patient who, I feel like, you know, I have this pain, but I don't really know what's going on. And that's fine too. And then there's the patient that is like, I have this pain and I've dissected it. Like, I know when I have it, I know like what causes it. I've. I've looked at this, I looked at that, and it's like that much more information is so much is so helpful because the more info, the better. And so, yeah, I love the ones like that.

Like, geek out. Like, I can get my little animated anatomy, you know, app out that we can zoom in and talk about this nerve and that articulation and this stretch and see how it works here and there. I love those clients.

So I love same. Because we're nerds. We want to geek out. We want to talk about it too. We want to talk about all that stuff. Yeah, no, I love that.

But we get excited about somebody wanting to really figure out their body and they're open to the education. Right. When they share in our excitement. Because we know those people that go to that level are looking for like a deeper understanding. And that's exciting for us because we're looking at that long term education process of this is really what's happening with your body. And when they're open to that, they're so much more aware of, like, okay, we're not just smashing your bone and making a clicking sound.

Totally. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I totally love when people want to geek out with me. And I totally love when they ask me something and I'm like, crap, I don't know that. And I have to figure it out. So then I go and I figure out and it's like, okay, we have this thing to talk about next time. And I am also learning something. So. Yeah, no, I love that.

So speaking of the pushing on a bone and cracking, what is the cracking noise? What is actually happening there?

Yeah, that's a great question. So the popping slash cracking noise that you hear is the same type of cracking that you hear when you crack your knuckles or crack your joints. It's just gas being released from a joint space. So if you think of a joint as a puzzle piece, and the puzzle piece is it completely put together the whole way, you know, they're sitting next to each other and you can tell that they're the correct puzzle pieces that are going to match, but you don't. You haven't necessarily connected them yet. A chiropractic adjustment pushes the joints together, you know, the puzzle pieces together, into that spot where you feel them join and they're in that correct position. And the cracking position, the cracking sound, is just the gas releasing from that space when the joint comes together.

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Looking to.

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So, yeah, that's okay. So the first of all, I mean, where's this gas? How are they getting this gas in their joints?

Yeah, it's. It's truly just gas that accumulates from space. So any type of, you know, the gas that is around the area, so space, air, you know, around this, around the area of the joint, it will seep into those spots where the joint isn't, I don't want to say not connected because it's not like something is dislocated or, you know, in the. Yes, it's not out. I hate. Oh, my gosh. Like, I'm like. Let me explain to you.

It's not out.

It's just not in that. The best way that I could think about it is a puzzle piece. Like, you know, they're. They're so. And it just needs that little bit of force to be in that, like, fastened position. And you know that that gas is just releasing from there. It's just. It just accumulates in the body. And, you know, there's so many different types of joints in the body. There's joints that are hinge joints, which are just like one piece connected to one piece. Very simple. There's more complex joints, like the joints that you have in your spine called facet joints. You know, so many different joints. So different joints make different sounds. That's why with a neck adjustment, the facet joints and the angle that they're at, it's a much louder adjustment than you would. Than you would have in, like, the thoracic spine or the lumbar spine, because they are at different angles. That's why spinal adjustments are so satisfying. Like, the cracking is so satisfying is because of the type of joint that it is.

So.

So the SI joint, which is the very, like, the lowest joint, where your ilium articulate with your sacrum, and that's like, what makes your back, hip joints, that joint is a little bit different. So it's more of, like, a loud clunking sound. And that's just purely based off of angle and surface area, like, how that joint comes together. And the cracking is just gas. And you definitely don't need cracking to have a successful adjustment. I think a lot of people get kind of addicted to that, like, cracking. And if it didn't crack, I didn't get a good adjustment. And that totally isn't the case. The way that you tell if an adjustment has been successful is you assess, obviously define where you're going to adjust whatever technique that may be, treat, AKA adjustment and reassess, see if that joint moves better, see if that person moves better, see if their pain is better. And that is the best way to figure out, like, was my adjustment successful or do I need to try something different?

Maybe even going into it with the mindset of, I'm looking for, like, a better movement of joints at the end rather than, like, you get stuck on the adjustment. Like, we make a funny joke about the going out. You know, my back is out, my rib is out. I'm like, it's out. Where to go dancing?

Yeah.

Maybe not do the limbo. Talk to your rib about that. Maybe you need to keep it in a little bit.

Yeah. I always tell people, like, if. If something was out, you would be at the emergency room, you would not be here.

But not. I mean, they don't know. I mean, we're not trying to make fun of people for that.

No, no, it's. It truly is a misconception. It's. It's because I think it's just. There's not enough understanding around that, you know, those types of joints, they're so stable and they have so many supportive structures around them. Not just muscles, but also ligaments, but also tendons. If we're talking about the spine specifically, you have discs, and those bones cannot come out of place. And I think that that is. Is one thing. You know, they can come out of place with serious traumatic injury, but for you know, an adjustment, an adjustment is not the treatment for a bone that is completely out of place. And I just think that that, that is another, you know, kind of going back to what I was talking about last podcast is another fear based tactic that some chiropractor, some chiropractors will use. Is that verbiage of bones being out of place, you know, bones not being in the right place. And that just is totally, unfortunately not the case. And I just, I love explaining that to patients like, hey, this is exactly what is happening because it also makes it less scary. You know, it doesn't have to be scary.

Yeah, right. And I appreciate that. It's like, yes, there can be. And maybe like the idea is that there, it's, it's out of its ideal alignment maybe for people. And that can happen for a number of reasons. Like you're saying there's the space, the gas that's in there. And I really feel like we should do a plug for Brian right here because he would definitely like to make a comment about. I thought we were talking about the gut and butt again and gas. I know he would make that comment. So I'm missing his humor.

Oh my gosh. Yeah, he would.

It's not. You don't have, you know, popping bones because you ate too many beans. It's okay. But yeah. Do you think that there's also an element? Okay, so like how I work with people, obviously I work with the myofascial tissue. I work with restricted muscle, you know, releasing and relaxing and stretching and binding in the muscles. But that affects the alignment of the bones or vice versa. An alignment of a bone that maybe had some trauma or some dysfunction or long term pulling in such a way that it affects the muscle.

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How do you like, determine. Is this just something I can work with, the regliding and moving of a bone connection or a joint mobility. Right. If I'm using my term for your. You can correct me there. Or this is more. It has gone further. It's originated in muscle and make that determination.

Yeah, it's like what came first, the chicken or the egg? And which one should we. Or is there only one? Yeah, yeah. I mean, I. I am a. And this is again, when we get into the basis, the basics of chiropractic, it's very cool because chiropractors have different philosophies and that is very awesome and makes us all different and makes us able to treat a very wide variety of people. And when it comes to my specific philosophy, I don't find. I haven't ever found one without the other. I very rarely find a, you know, a, you know, specific. Specifically, if someone's having pain, a muscle issue without a joint restriction or a joint restriction without a muscle issue. They're just so interconnected and they work together. And I've very, you know, what I have been taught and what I teach with my specific chiropractic philosophy is that when a joint isn't functioning properly, when it isn't moving properly, it's not like if you have shoulder pain, you can't move your shoulder. Your shoulder will still move. The same thing with your spine, your spine still moves, but the way that your body makes up for that is with muscle compensation. So I always, if, like, I'm explaining this in the most simple terms, I always tell people, like, it's like your brain is kind of like, oh, that's weird, that joint isn't working properly. How do I make up for this lack of motion? And then your brain tells those muscles around the area that is restricted to work extra hard, then those muscles become overworked and fatigued. I always explain this in the situation of, like, if you went to the gym and you did 100 bicep curls with one arm, how fatigued that muscle would be because it's overused. And then comes the muscle soft tissue injury. Of course, that can go the opposite way. You can have a muscle problem that then affects the joint around it. But I very, very rarely find, especially if someone is having pain in an area, that it's just a joint problem or just a muscle problem. I feel like it's normally both, A.

Little bit of both. Yeah, yeah. And then, you know, you can get into functional patterns and things like that. And of course, in my world, it's like talking to people about neuro facilitation. Like, the body will just use the first muscle that jumps up to do what it thinks is moving the shoulder. And so you get the overworked, overcompensated group of muscles that other ones are lacking, and then you can get dysfunction in that area from that.

Yeah. Which I feel like you debt, like with your work, you go like into much detail with that, which I love that. And that's why chiropractors and massage therapists should work. Be working together all the time. Because, you know, I. I specialize in the joint aspect. Thankfully, I do some muscle work around it. But for you to get even, like deeper into that issue and to talk about the way that the brain is communicating with that area, I mean, that is like. That's like the best of the best. Doesn't get better than that, I think.

Yeah. And of course, that's why we love our practice. Right?

Exactly. We're so integrated.

Yes. We're so integrative health, Mike. It's so.

We're so integrative health.

Little plug. Yeah. I mean that.

Yeah. I just think. I mean, that is. That's the best. I love that. You know, there's something. And that's the best part about like the holistic world is that there's something for everybody. Like, chiropractic might not be for everybody, and that's okay. And you know, I might. Chiropractic might be for somebody, but I might not be the specific chiropractor for them. And within our world, there's so many different types of providers, even just within chiropractic, even just within massage, even just within acupuncturist. And it's kind of like you have to do a little, little interview process and like, find the person that fits for you. And I love that because there's someone out there for you that is going to treat you in the best way that you need treated. And it might not be the first person that you go to.

Yeah, right. So in general, I know that, you know, like you're saying there's different avenues and different focuses. Just, I mean, you know, for chiropractic and is there something particular? Like, one of my favorite words is sublux and spondylola thesis. Like, I love those words. Spondylola thesis. I could just say it over and over again. Okay. But when, when somebody like you're looking at somebody from a standpoint of this is something I would treat or wouldn't treat, are there certain signs or Feedback from your. From your clients that you're like, no, I don't think this is a good.

Idea, or oh, yeah, 100%. Totally. I think that the probably, like, the umbrella of that question is like, what do we treat? Because I think a lot of people are like, well, I don't have back pain. I don't really need to go to a chiropractor. And, you know, we treat so many different things. We treat spondylolithesis, we treat stenosis, we treat back pain, but we also treat headaches. We also treat spy, like different types of spinal issues. And what I mean by that is like, scoliosis or any type of, like, facet syndrome, which is just, you know, going into stuff about the joints and the spine, but we also treat sinus issues. So, like, there's a lot that chiropractors do treat within our scope of practice. Stuff that we don't treat would be something that I hear all the time that, you know, is. Is just something that isn't necessarily treated by chiropractors, is like gut or like, any type of, like, gut health, organ health, things like that. Like that. There isn't a lot of research to show that that stuff is. Is treated by chiropractic. Any type of fracture that obviously should not be. Be treated by a chiropractor that would need more like, medical attention. I'm trying to think of, like, what else would be, like, something that. Was there something that you had in mind that we wouldn't treat or.

No, I just wanted subluxation and spondylolisthesis today.

Okay. Yeah. The people that have spondylolithesis, or if you want to sound like super colon hip, you can just call them a spondy. They definitely don't like that word because they're very painful. But yeah, I think, you know, the. The umbrella of what we do SRI is it's so. It's. It's hard to answer that question. And let me explain why it's hard to answer that question. There are things that I can treat on a more less severe scale, and then I find that, you know, okay, maybe chiropractic isn't. Isn't right for this person, or this is a more severe case than I thought, then, you know, we transfer to a different. A different practitioner. But a lot of musculoskeletal disorders are able to be treated by chiropractors. Anything outside of that realm, I would say that, you know, we might need to find a different provider for them.

Well, that's part of a Sign of a good chiropractor, too, is in any health practitioners is their ability to recognize we're not all knowing. And heck, no, you know, if a doctor is like, foo fooing any other opportunity to help something that they're not making progress on or they don't fully understand, they got that God complex and you might want to take an exit right there. But, yeah, you know, just knowing that not everything is. Even if we know how to do it or what it is or how to approach it, if it's not working or if it's something we're not jiving with the client with or the patient with care about the patient. Isn't that our first. Like, isn't there an oath about that?

There is. There is, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I always tell people the first day I meet a new patient, I tell them and, you know, in four weeks, we're going to reassess. If I am not the practitioner for you, I will 100% help you find somebody that is. And I All because I think that that is the most important. And like I even said, even. Even with back pain, even with the most common things that chiropractors are known for treating, I have had patients that haven't been successful with chiropractic care. And we've gone down different routes to figure out, you know, a deep. What is the deeper root cause of this? Like, that I feel like is always what I'm striving for is what is the root cause and if I'm not the person to fix it, I have a long list of fantastic people that I know that I will send you to and we will find someone for you. 100%.

What. What is. What is subluxation? Since we threw it out there. Can we put that into layman's term?

So subluxation is a very straight chiropractic. And what I mean by straight chiropractic is a philosophy. Straight chiropractic is like chiropractors that adjust bones and they focus on specific adjustments and they adjust bones, and that is all that they do, and that is it. So it's a. Subluxation is underneath this umbrella of straight. The straight chiropractic philosophy. That's, you know, what Dee Dee Palmer like, called it back in, like, the 1890s, you know what I mean? Like, long, long time ago. So subluxation is just. I would wish I could read his exact definition because I'm sure that we could pick it apart and dissect it with current scientific knowledge. But it basically just Means a bone out of place. Medical subluxation means dislocation. The way that the people that created chiropractic, the Palmers, they were referring to it as spinal misalignment, a spinal piece, AKA a vertebra, not being in the spot that it needs to be. That is such an old term because of course, now with different types of imaging that we have, we know that without real trauma, the spine doesn't necessarily come out of place. It rotates, it moves, it laterally, bends differently, it has restricted motion. So I think now, if Palmer were alive and he knew the, you know, the ins and outs of what we know now, he would probably change that to like a subluxation complex definition and go a little bit more in detail. But when he specifically was talking about it, he was just talking about vertebras not being in the space that they.

Need to be in when that happens, that you're basically. I mean, we're talking about this. The nervous system gets irritated, right?

Correct.

There can be actual irritation of a nerve root causing pain and dysfunction in the body, or the general sense that your body is always aware, whether it's subconsciously aware or really making the connections, it's still aware that something is irritated and not flowing correctly.

Yes, 100%. Yeah. And the nerve irritation thing, I see you see a lot with like different disc injuries. And, you know, when. When you do have subluxation or loss of motion in the spine, it puts a lot of strain and stress on the discs and all. And I always use this with people. It takes the weight of a quarter of on a nerve root to cause pain. So very, very little pressure on a nerve root can cause neuropathy or you missing tingling, sharpshooting pain. So that is definitely one of the things that we talk about and we explain whenever people are having those symptoms. Yeah.

So let me ask you this. If I know that you get this a lot, and I get it from the other side of it, but if somebody comes in for a chiropractic appointment and they don't leave pain free. What do you mean? Yeah, because I know a lot of.

People, I love this question. This is the best question ever. So I always say to people, how long have you had this pain? You know, they might say two months, a year, they might say a few days. And I go, and I definitely cannot fix that in this appointment. Time, it takes time because different things over compensate. They contribute to the problem. So it just takes time. And I always explain it as this. You will most likely have relief over the Next few days from this adjustment from this treatment, you know, following that, you may feel symptoms start to creep back in again. And if they do start to creep back in, don't be discouraged. That's totally normal. That's why I'm going to see you again in a week or two. Each time I see you, that time of you feeling better should be extended. Maybe the first time it was three days. After that second appointment, maybe it's five, maybe it's seven. And if we don't see a consistent progression of those days getting longer and you having longevity to your pain relief, then we come back to the question, like, do I need to change what I'm doing or do we need to get you to someone different? But I always explain to people, like, it's very hard to make change in one treatment session. It takes time because it is so complex. There are nerves that are involved, ligaments, tendons, muscles, bones. So many things play into this complex of pain that it's very hard to get long term change in a very short amount of time.

And the brain is very fixated on pain. So even if there's some change or relief.

Muscle memory, baby. Yeah.

Still be like, I'm still aware something's different here. This, there's still pain happening here.

Or like you had pain and you walked really weird for two weeks and your brain was like, okay, this is our new normal. And then you leave and you're. And you're still walking differently or you're still, you know, moving your arm differently or whatever it may be. The brain plays a lot, a lot into it. And I feel like there are chiropractic neurologists. It's like a specialty that you can go into. And their job is so fascinating because they do focus a lot on how the brain interacts with areas that are in pain. And that is just so fascinating to me because I'm like, that is, that's a big, that's a big part.

Yeah, I love the neuro side of things, so. Okay. Wow. Well, we got into some good stuff. I hope that. Is there anything else that you want to add into, like just things for people to be aware of, of kind of how to approach chiropractic. I feel like we've done a pretty great job.

Yeah, I feel like we've really, we've really talked about, like, you know, in the last podcast, the red flags, what to look for when you're looking for a chiropractor. Knowing that not every chiropractor is going to be your perfect chiropractor you know, it takes time. And that's. I feel like that that's with anything like you. Finding your provider that is best for you and works best for you, not only with their skill set, but also with their energy, with their personality, with things like that. Knowing that, you know, if you try, if you try one. One way of caring for yourself and that provider wasn't necessarily for you. Don't like, you know, completely shut the door on that specialty. Find somebody that works best for you. Find somebody that resonates with you. And if you don't feel like you can ask questions or you don't feel good in the scenario that you are in with your provider, and that's not even in just the holistic world. Also in the medical world, you know, there's so many people out there. Find the. Find the right person for you that wants to answer your questions and advocate for yourself all day, every day.

Awesome. And. And also in the spirit of Brian, get curious, ask questions.

I love that you know all the things he's gonna say. That's when you truly know somebody. You can predict what they would say in. At a moment's notice.

And I don't know everything because sometimes he shocks me and I'm just like, what did you just say? No, I'm.

I love that. Well, I hope you have a great rest of your Sunday, and thanks again for having me. I love. I love talking, love talking about this stuff.

It's a lot of fun. I appreciate you very much coming on and being our guest. Be our guest and have a great Sunday. We'll talk. We'll talk later in the week, I'm sure.

Perfect. Bye, everyone.

Bye. Bye.

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