Ep. 9 Needle Therapies

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Spinquest is a free to play social casino void where prohibited. Visit spinquest.com for more details. One big thing when you get needled of any type, whether it's acupuncture, dry needling, or down needling and you put that lesion to the tissue, know that your body is working for at least 72 hours. Hello friends. You are listening to the all things Good for your podcast. I'm your host, Brian Bowen, founder of.

Integrative Health, Inc. And I'm Amy Christiansen, your co host and creator of Amy Christensen Health and Wellness Coaching.

Join us as we explore the world of health and wellness and all things that make you feel good. From ancient traditions to modern advancements and technologies that give you the tools for.

A life well lived, what new paths might you discover on your health and wellness journey? Tune in each week as we deep dive into a variety of concepts and hear from other fun, passionate health and wellness experts on their experiences and philosophies.

And remember, stay open minded and integrated.

Good morning.

Good morning. Good morning to you. I said it first. You said it first. Good morning. Good morning.

Oh, good morning. Good morning. Happy, happy, cold morning days. I love when the seasons start turning and it starts to become nice and crisp and cool in the mornings in Colorado.

I totally agree with you. I love that crisp mountain fresh air. Gets my brain alert.

Comes trick of, okay, you got to turn, you got to get warm in the morning and then you got to cool it off. And we're still in that phase where it's still hot in the middle of the day here.

Yep. The morning. Remember our breathing when we talked about zhong Qi?

Yes.

So your breath as you breathe in, it's zong qi. So that this crisp mountain fresh air is like really clean, pure Zong Qi. I don't know I have to say zhong qi like that, but I felt like I had that zongchi.

Can you do like some Bruce Lee sounds?

Yeah.

All right.

I don't know what's happening now. I just want to say I'm so excited I get to talk about something today and we get to talk about something today, but I really get to talk about it because I'm really excited to talk about it. This is definitely needling Area.

Yes, this is your area of expertise.

I love this needling and needle. We're going to say needle therapies because there's a lot of needle techniques. So I don't want to just say acupuncture because there's all these different things we can talk about. So let's just say needle therapies. And under that umbrella, if you will, there's all these, like, techniques, and each has a purpose on when to utilize them and what to utilize them for. And I geek out and I love, love, love needling people.

Well, I love that you needle people because I think it's very effective. Of course, I became introduced to dry needling while I was working in physical therapy and then experienced it quite a bit for myself when it was just the dry needling. Right. So a lot of times physical therapists, they're doing the dry needling aspect and we'll get into the differences. But I had a lot of chronic neck and shoulder issues. And so I don't know what it was like six weeks every Friday. One of my most favorite therapists to work with of all time dry needled me on Fridays. And we'll talk about why. But I had a funny reaction when he would hit the really painful spots and the significant spots. I would laugh almost uncontrollable. I mean, I would sit there and cry on the table because I was laughing, not because I was in pain. And then he would laugh. And so we just both sat there and laughed the entire time, which was pretty entertaining.

See, the funny thing is you were laughing because you're having like a somatic experience, like a release. And then he's just laughing at you having your somatic release.

Right. Because emotions are chuckling, just laughing at you. He just thought it was the funny. I thought it was the funniest thing because it is. There's such an emotional component to it. So from there, I became a little bit of a dry needle addict. And I got dry needled all the time for everything. And I'm a huge fan of it. I think I refer my clients back and forth. I know we do that. And when I'm working on clients for things, I often refer them to CU or one of our other wonderful acupuncturists. And so effective. So obviously you're an acupuncturist more focused in the Chinese medicine aspect of it. And that's really where the dry needling began. Right. 3500 BC or something was the first.

Somewhere between 2 and 5000 years. Somewhere between there There's. There's some debate.

I'm glad I finally caught up.

Yeah, I know, right? Yeah. No, it's been around for a long time and it's amazing. So obviously needling is good for you. And I know some people have. Are nervous about even hearing the word needle, but there's a variety of things it's good for, for sure, and we can talk about that. But some of the quick differences in is especially because obviously you're referencing dry needling a lot, which has become really popular term and utilized a little bit more by physical therapists over the past, let's say five to seven years. But that actually that technique has been around for thousands of years in about 19, maybe 85ish. Don't hold me tight to that. In Janet Trouble's book, dry needling was referenced for the first time I saw it any. And so just think about that. 1985, they talked about it and they're really tying it into conjunction with trigger points, which you can elaborate on a little later. And so they really were tying it into the release of these trigger points. So from 1985 to, you know, five, you can be safe and say 10 years ago, you just didn't hear anything about it. It's really a rebranding and a really good marketing job for that technique and rebranding it. But the technique has been around for a very long time with a little bit different intention. I would do you mind if I just be a rambling head for a second? Because I'm just going to blah, blah, blah, blah. All right, cool. So, you know, again, Janet Travell, the kind of mother founder of Trigger points, you know, dry needling is more referenced that now it's kind of dry needling because it's a filiform needle. So it's a solid needle. So it doesn't actually push out any fluid. Right. It doesn't inject fluid. So therefore it is dry. But trigger points in Chinese medicine are sure points. And they just didn't have the proper kind of description and anatomy and kind of validation with some science and stuff behind it. But Usher points are kind of that alter word for trigger points technically.

And we talked about assure and spelled H I and it means literally translated, ah, yes.

Ah yes. Ah yes, that hurts. Ah yes, I'm sure that hurts.

Sure, that's the spot.

And they.

When, you know, in Chinese medicine, when we palpate those, it's not necessarily just discerning like there's a dysfunction in that muscle or that muscles owie. It's More connected with, like, the meridian and the flow of qi. So if we're talking about needling, just to be quick, in Chinese medicine, obviously you're needling for musculoskeletal stuff, but the kind of the foundation is the flow of Qi in the body. And there's these different meridians and systems that they're influencing by needling certain points. So a point that's tender in a certain area also is associated usually to this meridian. And so it's used as a diagnostic and evaluation tool to discern what imbalance is happening within that. And we can elaborate and talk all day about that, but I was going to be vague for a minute here and kind of give that description. And then dry needling is really good and more specific and not for internal problems, but more for just muscle fibers. And then down needling. And so it's really good for, like, acute, like three months or less, kind of very specific muscle fibers that are really palpable and have those tight bands. And then down needling, which is my baby that I love and is kind of is my system. That's a different type of needle still, that solid filiform needle, but it really has a different tip. Instead of like a ballpoint pin kind of shape, it's got more of like a beveled, chiseled edge. And it's really good for more chronic restrictions and muscle fibers, but also like fascial layers and thickening. So phase one, you have, like three phases of that kind of tightening. So especially when you get into that third phase of like, oh, my gosh, it's been here for a long time and everything is shrink wrapping around it, that's what I love to do down aid with. And if you can feel and things are pretty mobile around it, and all of a sudden you're like, ooh, that's a really good tight band in that piriformis muscle or whatever, then that's where like, dry needling goes, is really good. But both dry needling and down needling, the needle goes in and right back out. The difference is with dry needling and down needling is that the needle goes in for dry needling and you want to stimulate it and you're trying to get a muscle testiculation. I like to say that word which really just means a muscle twitch response. Yeah, it's a fancy word for muscle twitch.

A nice word, elation. What does dao mean? It has a fun name.

Dao is the Chinese word for knife, but I rebranded it because it just doesn't sound knife needling or needle knife doesn't sound that pleasant. Now, all of these do have a different sensory response, so everybody wants to make things comfortable. Now, here in the west, we've overdone it. So I'm going to just talk briefly about like traditional Chinese needs medicine. When they're, when they're needling, they want the chi to arrive. So this filiform needle goes in and it's really thin. It's 36 gauge. So it's really, really, on average, it goes in, it's really fine. And they'll twitch and kind of thrust this needle up and down just a little bit. And they want you to get a sensation of something and they call the chi. And so you want this qi to respond. Now Japanese, so the Chinese are like, we want it now. And the Japanese are like, oh, we're just going to barely put this needle in. And we know that she will arrive at some point. It's going to stimulate the body. And so you have this very big paradigm. Well, here in the west, we don't want to give anybody any discomfort. So, you know, we tend to fall into that kind of lighter category. But it's important to make sure you do get some response from that, especially if you're going for more of like a dry needle technique or whatever. You're not. If you don't get that fasciculation, if you don't get the chi, if you will, then the outcome isn't going to be as profound.

Very cool. So, and down needling, like you mentioned, is a technique that you teach and have developed. And it's. All of the needles that we're talking about are basically acupuncture needles, right?

Yes.

Then the down needles are just a little bit of a different. Like you've mentioned, the tip is different. That's why it's considered. It's called the knife. Maybe is that the little bit more jagged? But you can't really feel that. I mean, you can, but you can't. It's not like there's not a huge feeling difference in my opinion, other than like you were mentioning the intention of what we're trying to stimulate. Obviously. I feel like most of the time when I've experienced acupuncture, it's pretty non painful. Every now and again there'll be a spot that is a little more tightening or kind of burny, and then they usually adjust it. Right. And then dry Needling, of course, can be quote unquote painful. It's a different type of pain, though. It's not what most people would say. I mean, I guess everybody's pain and nociceptive response is a little bit different in their interpretation of intensity. Some people have described it as just being a weird sensation. Like they think it hurts, but it doesn't. And then it's just an odd sensation because your body and brain don't understand why this one muscle area is moving or tensing up. And what was the fun word you like to use?

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Free to play social casino void where prohibited. Visit spinquest.com for more details. Fasciculation after like really the circulation. Yeah, you know, it's interesting. Everybody's pain, like you said, everybody's pain response is a little different now. I just want to, I think it's always interesting somebody has if, let's say you're just being treated with pain, forget about anxiety or depression or any of those things, your digestive problems, but you're coming in, you're getting with pain. Well, some people will refuse to try acupuncture for pain, but they'll go get surgery or do all these other things. It's like, wait, you're in chronic, you have severe pain and you're not going to try. You're worried about this little thing that can cause maybe a little discomfort but could take away all of your pain.

And last for like 20 minutes, maybe 20 minutes overall the entire session. Yeah. Yeah.

So like regular, you know, traditional acupuncture, you have the needles in and you're going to lay there and retain the needles for 30 minutes. And none of those are uncomfortable whatsoever. You should be there chilling out, going, letting your body go from sympathetic to parasympathetic, like getting your chi flowing. And you just get to lay there and zone out and chill out so it doesn't hurt. You might feel initial sensation, but within 30 seconds it should dissipate right where with dry needling it doesn't hurt really at first. And then as you know, you twitch that needle and try to get the Qi or that fasciculation to happen, you're going to get like this like little, you know, like oh, I felt that. But then it subsides immediately. And then with the down needle again, a lot of these you don't feel. But of course where there's more hypertone bands or really excessively tight bands, you might get what I call a zinger. And that can give like a little Bernie Zingy sensation. And so I just tell people to tell me if they get that and if you rub it vigorously and superficial, really, really, really, really, really, really fast, it goes away immediately. So usually it's our palpation of those points define those points that I find hurts more than the needle. So you and I are both a little heavy handed in our palpation skills. But I think that that is more tender for people.

That's true. So this is like we said, it's more your wheelhouse and I'm familiar with that and I understand a lot of the science behind it. But you've gotten way more deeper into this because you, you actually teach your courses on thou needling. Are there reasons for you? Do you pretty much always down needle or are. And I know you do acupuncture as well, but what is kind of a defining moment for you that you would say to somebody, let's do acupuncture. Dry needle or down needling?

Yeah, no, that's a good question. And then sometimes, like it's not just picking one, sometimes I integrate them together. So a lot of it, you know, is going to be based off of what I'm feeling and what I'm seeing and how they're moving. But if somebody comes in for sure and the pain is chronic, and for me I even think about chronic, you know, six months or more versus a year or more, which some people define chronic. So when it's been there for a while and the body's built these like compensations and there's been a lot of decrease in the mobility and motility of the tissue, then I'll down needle for sure. Plus it also allows you to kind of map things out and see it from a different objective perspective with your clients feedback. And so we'll definitely do that. If the tissue, for instance, like there's a muscle, the infraspinatus, so I'll down needle that. But then I do like There's a great trigger point in that infraspinatus that is also really good to do some dry needling to and get that fasciculation to happen. But you can still get dry needle effect with the down needle depending on location and depth. So, you know, you can take the same needle and try to. And you can get kind of a double whammy. And then there's times when I'm doing dry needle on somebody. So let's say you come in with hip and low back pain, and, you know, let's just say I feel like, okay, I don't need to do any down needling on it. There's not a lot of massive tissue restriction. The mobility is pretty good. It hasn't been, you know, it's only been going on for a couple weeks. I might palpate and feel certain hypertissue that I don't like that we know we need need to relax. So I might dry needle it, but leave the needle in and then turn that into also regular acupuncture. And so then sometimes, like, microcurrent up a little electricity to these needles and stuff like that so you can blend and turn one into the next based off of, you know, depth, position of the patient, and again, acute or chronic pain. So they all have a purpose and they have a place. And if any therapist tells you that their technique is the only technique, then I would be really concerned. I think there's a lot of tools out there, and you just have to know when and how to break what tool out of the toolbox and for what purpose.

Right. That's so cool. So I've come to prefer the dowel needling. I'm not exactly sure why. I know for me, personally, I don't enjoy laying on a table with the needles left in me. Acupuncture is fine because they do it. Like you said, it's so light. And let me tell you, I take about 30 seconds to basically fall asleep and drool. So I move really quick into my parasympathetic, deep parasympathetic response when I do acupuncture. And I was very surprised. I had quite a big system reaction the first time I had acupuncture. Of course, I was extremely stressed. I was like, massive adrenal fatigue, really bordering on some dangerous health stuff. And I had acupuncture. And then I went home and slept for half a day. It definitely released a lot of stuff and tmi, But I also peed nonstop for a few days.

Here we go. Here we go. Downhil.

What's that about, Brian?

When you get your body moving and like whether it is from storing something up, emotionally, storing stress up, storing like when muscles are tight, they store metabolic wastes. Your body has to release it and it has to go somewhere so there's people that will have feel like they've had the flu for a couple days after. So it's a detox, right? It's a flushing out. I mean the great thing is when you have that, that means it needed to move and so you got it moving.

I had definitely very toxic at that moment.

That's good. I'm glad you pee it out. Pee it out.

That's right.

I have a whole story about that from another therapist, Summer Vogue. I won't even go into that right now. It was a very hilarious situation. So if listeners want to hear more, please request the story of urination.

Healing the body can be entertaining for sure.

Yeah, no, that's for sure. Hey guys. Hi, it's Brian. I just wanted to take a pause for a moment in the middle of this podcast to thank our sponsors, Ouch, who's helping to make this podcast possible today. Ouch believes everyone should enjoy what life has to offer without enduring pain. They are a pain relief company. Listen guys, I use their products a lot. They're proprietary herbal formulas built on top of a 2000 year old formula, giving it time tested, effective results and I'm going to listen to that any day of the week. The combination of that with the founder having over 22 years of actual hands on experience treating patients for musculoskeletal pain makes Ouch a very special company. Ouch is made with the highest quality of certified herbs and CBD from organic hemp oil. Their ingredients are extracted with the utmost integrity to ensure the healing properties remain pure and concentrated to promote natural muscle pain relief and other benefits. I gotta tell you, I appreciate that so much. As a consumer, I want to know what I'm getting is exactly what's being sold to me. So they take it a step further. They have a certificate of analysis for all their ingredients before it goes into production and after production to ensure that you're getting what you're paying for. Listen here guys. Don't settle for a lesser version of your best self today. When you can feel your best today, check out Ouch Shop that's spelled out for a full line of their products. They're an amazing company. I use their products on a daily basis, so check them out. I just want to talk real quick so. And then I'M going to let you kind of, you know, talk some about trigger point points. But when we're looking at muscle fiber, and I use that word, hypertone, you don't want muscles to be hypotone, but you don't want them to be hypertone. So they have to be ready to react. They have to have a certain tension on them to help stabilize and put the body in a proper position and kind of have this interplay and dynamic balance with other muscles. It's kind of partner muscles and muscles on the opposing side. But when a muscle has become stressed out, overstrained, overworked, in an adaptive shortened position, so it hasn't been able to go through its full lengthening and shortening phase, because a muscle should be able to lengthen and then shorten and lengthen and shorten. And that pumping action helps push fluids, helps keep the muscle fibers independent from each other. So there's not like a thickening or matting down or binding of these fibers. When a muscle becomes hypertone or becomes dysfunctional and gets stuck in this kind of short position, picture like if I'm grabbing your arm, Amy, and I'm just firmly holding it, like it doesn't hurt, right? But, yeah, well, after a while, you would. Yeah, after a while. But I know, you know, I know my boundaries, so it's fine. But if I gently hold it, it's not going to be uncomfortable at first. But what's happening is over a period of time, I've decreased the blood flow and the oxygen and interstitial fluids and all this stuff to that area of your body. So after maybe five minutes, you start getting annoyed with me. After 10 minutes, it's really going to be uncomfortable and you're going to definitely want to hit me. So picture that happening on a micro level to some of these muscle fibers. And so you have the birth of what we call these trigger points or these assure points, starts with the decrease in qi of blood flow and interstitial fluids and oxygen and stuff to this tissue because it hasn't been going through that phase. And then it throws a chemical imbalance into these receptors, right? And then that intercellular change in the environment allows for these receptors to become sensitive. And so the mechanical threshold, meaning when I push on it or the tender spot becomes really hypersensitive, and then send signals to the brain. And the brain's like, I don't like that. That feels uncomfortable. And so when we talk about, like, learning how to listen to your body, if you feel like just the start of that what happens if it's ignored and you don't really create a happy environment there and get that moving and grooving. It builds and builds and builds. So it might start in one place and then if you ignore it and just think it's going to get better and it's not, then all of a sudden it's like, well, it hurt here. Now it hurts all the way up here. And then pretty soon, oh my God, it hurts here. And then pretty soon you're in chronic pain.

Your bodies are just a giant suspension bridge. They just exactly balances and pulls right off of each other and you'll just.

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Go down the bridge.

Absolutely. And that whole cycle is called a muscle energy crisis. And so when that muscle's in that energy crisis, you have these usher points and or trigger points develop. So listen to those signals and take care of that now and come get some needle in. But tell us a little bit more as a trigger point therapist too, I've been talking all about ushers and Qi stagnation and all that good stuff, but you know, taking it away from a little bit of the Chinese medicine theory and stuff, tie in some trigger point talk.

Well, it's nice. I mean just the body awareness, right. As far as massage therapy and body work goes and just anything that you can do, like we're rolling out your your body doing stretches, doing yoga. One of the nice things, you know, when I'm working on somebody, they'll say, man, you always find spots I didn't even know was sore, right? And your body just forgets these little things either. Like you said, it's been years of slowly growing tension and then it's just your body's not aware of it, you're not thinking about it because it's not a yelling at you moment where you hit your shin on the table or what have you, but it's there and it is restricting energy, it is restricting mechanics. And your, your nervous system, highly, highly sensitive. Right. We, it knows that there's a problem, but your nociceptor signals are going off in these areas that you don't even know are tight. Like you mentioned the infraspinatus, right? That's the kind of a big flat muscle across the back of your shoulder blade that wraps around in the front of your shoulder and sometimes it'll refer pain in the front of the shoulder. I can hit a trigger point where infraspinatus and the teres muscles overlap on just about any human being. And it's going to be shocking that it hurts. And so a trigger point specifically is just an area. And I'm, you know, we don't have to go into the deep science about it, but like you mentioned, Janet Travell did an incredible job early in the 80s. Is that when it was. Because of course, I wasn't thinking about this in the 80s. You weren't either, I'm sure. But they kind of of pushed away for explaining to people or educating therapists and massage therapists and in general people about what trigger points are and how to identify them and release them and understanding the referral pain. Because a lot of times you'll have an area of the body where, like I had said, with the trigger points that develop an infraspinatus and teres, it's like in the lower middle section of your scapula, and you push on this specific spot. It might hurt right there, but it also might hurt in the referral pattern in the front of the shoulder. Your body likes to play little tricks on you to get your attention. You may have a trigger point in your levator, another area right along your neck, but you're feeling it up on your head. What happens is the fascial tissue, the myofascial. So all this webbing that's in between your muscles. For anybody who doesn't understand myofascial, it's pretty amazing. Your entire body, basically this web of connective tissue. And there's myofascial tissue all over your body, but it's in every muscle. And if you get pain or injury or dehydration or I mean, even just breaking down, a lot of times, you know, domes, right. The delayed onset muscle pain syndrome, right, from working out now, they're recognizing a lot of that is actually delayed onset fascial soreness. And it's not about lactic acid, but it's about a degrading of the fascial tissue and hyaluronic acid not being available in those tissues and the tissues beginning to get sticky like a glue.

That's a good point. So if you haven't listened to the movement podcast, go back and listen to that because, you know, to help prevent all of these usher points or trigger points or muscle energy crisis or, you know, stickiness and all that stuff, that's a huge reason for movement. We talked about a. Of other reasons and variety and diverse movement, but we want to prevent all of this from happening. And so that is a key component for sure.

Right. And like I was saying, if the muscle tissue and the fascial tissue get stuck and how you had referenced becomes locked down and creates dysfunction, creates where the oxygen and blood can't blow, move through that area, you get the metabolic waste, you get toxins, and then that builds up sensitive area and you push on it and it hurts. Right? And we have to break that up because it's not just creating that pain right there, it's branching out, like we mentioned with the bridge. And you're going to disrupt more and more as you go. And there's some interesting, Hugh had mentioned, just touched on it lightly, overlap of acupuncture and trigger points. How often are you seeing that? And do you think from the Chinese medicine standpoint, in a person standpoint, I mean, is there always a relative correlation there with like meridian lines and chi and trigger points and pain, or is it just sometimes just coincidence?

No, there's never a coincidence. There's always an interconnectedness. And, you know, the great thing is, is thousands of years ago, you know, these meridians, these lines that carry the energy throughout the body, if you will, or these systems, you know, were discovered like they discovered these. But there was none of the science or that kind of validation behind it. And, you know, the, the word chi, omniscient energy. And the cool thing is now we know every living thing has a biomagnetic field. And so if you look at the kind of the definition, it's this omniscient kind of energy, you know, the earth has it and so forth. So it's kind of cool because the Chinese, like, had this definition, you know, a long time ago. But as far as the channels, even of Qi, now again, there's a lot of stuff pointing like, where does this biomagnetic field kind of, how does it flow? How does this qi flow out the body? And so there's a Lot of cool stuff in relationship to the fascial planes being the conduit or the medium path of travel for the flow of energy. There's also some talk about these things called the dongbang ducks, but regardless.

Wait, wait, wait, wait.

The dong bang ducks. So that this was something discovered, you know, over 50, whatever years ago in South Korea, but now we actually, like, I think it was like three or four years ago or whatever, have classified that. I think it's still kind of a debate as the largest organ system. So there are these microtubulars, the meso something. What do they call it here in the West? Meso something system. But anyway, I'm digressing just a little bit, but my point is we have this flowy stuff that goes and is interconnected to everything and affects everything. And so if there's tenderness, regardless of where it's at, there is a reason for it. And because of this interconnectedness, the maps overlay each other so much. So, for instance, I'm going to back up real quick. So you were talking about the referral of trigger points. When I teach down needling, and through my research in especially my level one course, the systems of trigger points, meridians and fascial meridians, which are proven through dissection, there's at least an 85% overlap on the same thing. So for instance, if I'm thinking about a certain muscle, I know what meridian goes through that muscle.

Right.

And therefore I also can tell you what the trigger point referral is going to be because they're kind of the same. So it's amazing how Janet Travell, the Chinese. You know, Chinese medicine and, you know, more of this fascial dissection kind of work, all kind of overlaps. And I know we digress from needling, but the interesting thing is, as you were talking about out with doing trigger point work or whatever, we have to influence this tissue regardless on to make it healthier to break this muscle energy crisis. And there's many ways to do that. But to tie into what you were saying with the trigger points and stuff, I'm just talking, talking, talking. I'm so sorry. I get excited.

I love listening to you talk about this stuff because I love, again, you tie it all together and it makes me really happy.

It's yummy, it's fun. But so you have passive ways of doing it. Right. So whether Amy is doing trigger point work or myofascial work, there's somebody doing something to you, and then you have more of an active way of influencing it, whether it's from ballistic stretching or static stretching or doing certain workouts or whatever. And then you have point of this conversation today is the needle therapy approach, right? Different styles of needling to influence it. And one of the big differentiating markers that I would say with each of those is one, think about like actively you're doing it, so you're getting a chemical response to happen from inside your body. You're the one that's doing this thing. So I think you have more of a trickle down effect of, you know, stuff happening inside versus if Amy or I'm doing something trigger point wise. I think there's a different response because it's more of a passive thing. So you're bypassing some processes. But when you're doing needling, the big where it really kind of has a different foothold, if you will, is when you put a needle into the tissue, it puts a small lesion into that muscle and so it sends signals to the brain, yo, something's up here, right? Like it's, I hate to say it, it's almost like a very micro trauma to kind of re jump start your body's healing process. So I always, especially with dowel needling, I like to tell people that we have to step it up a notch because it's chronic. Your body kind of got stuck and stupid and we got to break stupid. So we got to talk a little bit louder to it. And I don't mean to like downgrade anybody's body and call your body stupid, but sometimes the body gets stuck in.

A process and so it ignores the pain. It just becomes so used to it and that dysfunction. It's not an emergency. Your body just forgets. So you have to kind of overstimulate it and let your brain say, oh hey, there's a problem here. I wasn't paying attention to this, but now I am.

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And you kind of have to swap it into. They're waking up a little bit.

Exactly. So it's like okay, what tool are we going to break out to slap it? So, so when you put that needle in, just to be clear, now we're needle, we're stabbing people. It's different. So when you put that needle and you put that in there, it's the brain's like oh, it's almost like you just put like a laser marker here and it's like send signals to the brain. The brain's like oh, let's send all of our anti inflammatory soup. Let's get new blood in there, let's get some oxygen in there, let's get some good stuff down here. So it's really like we're calling in the troops. You know as well as know basically breaking that muscle energy crisis from a different approach.

Right. And you're affecting the entire system. I mean and I think it can be considered like just levels of intensity and doing manual trigger point or even acupressure points along the meridian lines and or just hitting directly into the trigger point work and breaking up myofascial that way and then going a deeper layer with acupuncture and needling, you're just affecting how, how serious you're or how much we're affecting the nociceptors. Right. Your little fibers. But you're also sending out neuropeptides. You're affecting the hormone system. Your endorphins are releasing, you're getting blood flow to that area. You're flushing out wastes and toxins because of the fluids that are now able to run through that area and heal your body. And I don't know if you teach people when you're dry needling them or if you just, I mean you probably just keep it simple and you still like it gets red because there's blood flowing there. Right. But I mean it's a whole process of the immune system and remodeling that connective tissue and stimulating the healings process in that area. It's not just blood flow, it's a whole cascade of things that are also happening in your amygdala and your understanding and thinking of pain. And then as we mentioned there's a lot of research coming out even more now how it's directly related to emotional content. Right. The things that are. And I love the somatic work that I kind of delve into every now and again and doing trauma release stuff in the body, then that's. It's about connecting your emotional content with the pain in your body and vice versa so that you can release that. So it's pretty significant. But I've had sessions where I've had to go home, and I just feel completely wiped out and in a good way, like I had climbed a mountain that day. But then I have sessions where it's just simple. It's done and it's effective, and my body's releasing pain and I feel energetic and. And good. You can definitely have a variety of responses to it.

One big thing, when you get needled of any type, whether it's acupuncture, dry needling, or down needling, and you put that lesion in the tissue, know that your body is working for at least 72 hours. So just, you know, just kind of keep that in mind. So for 72 hours, your body is still responding to that treatment and still working and still helping you repair and recover and so forth. And so, you know, you want to stay out of its way. And that means, you know, try to think about drinking water, but not putting yourself back in some of those situations that created the stress or whatever as well. So for 72 hours, just try to chill out and watch your. Your body mechanics and just know that, hey, I know I got that treatment days ago, but I want to embrace it, maximize, and get the most out of it that I can. So.

Well, that's a good tip, too, because just in general, even just working out, and you're breaking down your muscle fiber and breaking and moving that fascial tissue around, you've got 72 hours where the collagen is in your body and those fibers are reconnecting and rebinding themselves. So very similar. I'm curious if somebody gets dry needle acupuncture or what have you, the down needling, probably a good time to do some continued myofascial work. Or should they just leave it alone?

No, I think. Well, first of all, I'm a firm believer of hitting things hard and hitting them fast. So if I have something come up, like, I don't let it linger. So go for it. But I would say, you know, to have those days between, like, if. If you get needled today, wait, like, three days before you go and get the myofascial work done right, and. Or a chiropractic adjustment. But your therapist should, all of them should, like, feel this difference. Like, I have clients that come in and they're like, maybe they're not seeing our chiropractor. Maybe they're seeing a different chiropractor. Whatever they're. Or getting a different massage from you or whatever, and they get needled. And usually that therapist is like, oh, boy. I could really tell, you know, that you had this, you know, this work done and vice versa. So especially if you have a good team. Like, we have a great team at Integrative Health, where we just hear that feedback from our clients because it's a shared experience or from the provider. So that's pretty cool when you're in that environment. You said a word, though. I just want to go back to. Because I just. I love it. Because we are talking about needling and its purpose because it's all good for you. And, you know, obviously we jumped into some other things, but the word remodel. And so when you're putting a needle in, you are. It does create a remodeling or a change in that tissue. But the reason I like remodel, if you haven't listened to our neuroplasticity podcast or our mindset and reframing, like, all that is really, like, we can change. We can reframe. We are flexible. We can build new pathways. We can make it however we want. Right? And the remodeling really speaks to that of our body. Like, we don't have to look a certain way, we don't have to feel a certain way. We can change how we feel on our body level. We can change how we look on our body level. And I don't just mean flatter abs or whatever, but from posture, we remodel and change that tissue length. Right? It changes the position of stuff so we don't have to have the same pain from deterioration and rubbing of joints. It changes the way we look and the way we hold our bodies. It changes the way we move because it creates this elasticity. So just like reframing the neuroplasticity. No, we can change our brains, but know we can change our bodies.

Yes. I love it. We can take charge. Make good choices to release your body. I mean, you even talk about posture. If you change your posture, your mindset and your energy changes. People look at you differently, but you present yourself differently. And just that energetic feeling of confidence and ease and health just within a change of your posture. So if you've got some body mechanics and some myofascial tissue or trigger points and things restricting your body, body, great. Getting the dry needling done or the down needling done. And Doing some myofascial work to release that so that you can continue to have good. Not just body mechanics, but overall energy and mindset is directly related to it. So that needling needle therapy, it's. It's good for you.

If you guys are excited to hear Amy laugh hysterically because she's getting needle and you want to hear a live needling session to hear her laugh, let us know and we will get that set up for you.

Yeah, so one of the things we want to do on our podcast is give you guys kind of audio experience of some of the things that we do and, but also other things like doing some experimenting and running out and trying some of these all things good for you and letting you guys listen in and share those things. I think at some point we'll do videos, but I get my arms dry needled regularly. As Brian mentioned. I have thumbs of steel, but I don't. I need that dry needling to help keep me moving that down needling. So Brian and I are going to do a live session if you would like to hear that.

Well, I appreciate it so much, Amy. Thank you for letting me share my joy and passion and excitement of needling.

And people can go to your website right down needling to find out more. More.

Yeah. For dow needle specific, the website is daoneedle.com. that's a little bit more for practitioners, but you can find practitioners who are certified for that. It is a specialized technique, so definitely check that out. If you want to explore and experiment, you know, I encourage you to try acupuncture. Try dry needling. Try down needling. You know, again, the whole point of this podcast is just to get you to explore and try step outside of your box. You never know what you'll like until you try it. I mean, I like broccoli now, just like my mom told me.

Me therapy's like a box of chocolates.

Yes. Which is better than broccoli. So I don't know. I don't know what's happening now. Here it goes. All right, we gotta go. I gotta go, I gotta go.

Have a wonderful day. Go make people feel good, Brian.

All right, Appreciate it. Bye, everybody. Oh, don't forget, share this podcast and when you share it, please tell them if they like it, to like it. And if you guys don't mind too, we're getting lots of downloads and stuff like that. If you like it, make sure you give us a thumbs up and tell us that you like it. Especially if you're listening on Apple or Spotify. Because they they like that stuff. And we like it when you like it because then we know you like it. If you don't like it, we don't know if you liked it. So tell us you liked it.

I'm like us. I like you, Brian. I would never punch you. I'd never punch you. All right, have a good day. Bye Bye. Hey friends, thank you for tuning in to the All Things Good for you podcast. Please note any information, experiences, ideas, ideas or opinions discussed today are for educational and thought provoking purposes only and not intended as medical advice. If anything piqued your curiosity, please consult with your doctor or personal medical professional. And if you're enjoying All Things Good for your podcast, hop on over and leave us a five star review so we can continue delving in and providing great content. Thanks again and we hope you are inspired to stay informed and respond along your health and wellness journey.

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