Elevating your Game: Lessons from Football Veteran Gavin Brown

I talk about when I first started, I wasn't worried about, to be brutally honest, was not thinking about winning a premiership. All I was thinking about is, am I going to survive in this industry? Am I going to get a game? Am I going to keep getting a game? So there is competition for spots and you know that. You know you're competing. I might be competing with Johnny and yet we still need to be working together and we still need to have a strong relationship. And when we get onto the ground, we still need to conform to the team and be selfless. And it becomes really, really difficult. And that's where you can come unstuck with some players. The mentality is, no, I'm— and you've seen it. Some players can't do that. It's all about them. When you get that attitude, like anything in life, that's when the team starts falling apart. So that's where the coaching is critical and the leadership is critical to make sure that everyone is aligned.

Gavin Brown, welcome to The Mentor List.

Thank you.

Well, it's great to have you in the studio here today. I'm really looking forward to digging into some of the topics. So the overarching theme that we've sort of— we came up with with our pre-briefing call was around sustained high performance and competitive advantage, and really looking to digging into sort of, you know, what is a high performance culture, and knowing that you've been probably Probably at both ends of performance. Be interesting to sort of dig into, is there a secret sauce? Or, you know, maybe what's your view on sort of a high-performance culture? Or, and when have you seen it not generating the output, if you like?

Yeah, well, it's a good question because I've been involved in both as a player and as a coach, actually in Premiership as a player and a wooden spoon as a player and on a coaching panel, um, in a premiership and, uh, and also in wooden spoons as a coach. So I've experienced the highs and lows as both a player and a coach over, what, as we said, 37 years. Um, and I think, look, in, in elite sport, clearly you've got to have a level of, um, of competency and technical ability and talent.

Yeah.

I mean, that goes without saying. You can't just drag people off the street and expect to have success. But by and large, you take that for granted that most teams are going to have the, I guess, the required amount of talent to be able to, to be capable of being successful, whether that means winning premierships or whether it means playing finals. Because let's face it, some teams do have a little bit more talent than others. But I think at the end of the day, it's, it's about how well the, the teams are led, are structured, are run. The motivation involved. And I think it all boils down to, you know, everyone buying in, basically. I think that's probably the bottom line.

Yeah, right. Okay. Everyone buying in. So as you mentioned, sort of 14 years playing and then also captaining teams, 23 years coaching 3 different clubs, some more successful than others. Just something you were mentioning there around gotta have the right talent, everyone buying in. On the talent side, and something we're throwing around in a few of our mastermind sessions around, if you've got a McDonald's model, which almost takes the creative thinking out of something so that you can effectively hire someone with a low level of experience and skill and they can do the job.

Yeah.

Versus the other end of it, extreme, which may be a creative role or something that requires creative thinking, creativity, less process, more brilliant. I don't know what the contrast is, but how do you sort of see that within a football club running? Is it process? Is it just natural raw talent? Maybe it'd be great to get your view on that.

Yeah. Oh yeah, well, no, you're right. It's both. It's both. You have to be really— AFL clubs have become, particularly now, really structured for everything from the processes and protocols and structures to get the team to perform, but also out on the ground. Every single player will have a role and a responsibility at every minute or second of the game, really.

Wow.

Even if you're not involved in touching the footy or your team hasn't got the ball. Structurally, you'll have a role to play in whatever position you're playing at the time. So you have to abide by that because clearly if you don't do that, then the team falls apart. You're only as strong as your weakest link, as they say. So that's critical that everyone plays their role. But within that, and the old saying, swim between the flags, hopefully the flags are wide enough to be able to allow that creativity and that genius, if you like, within some players.

Yeah.

Like anything in life and like any people, some people are, yeah, have, have more creative juices. It's the same with sport, I think, or particularly football that I know. Some players are, uh, need real structure and they need to know their role intimately because that helps them perform. Whereas some players, yes, um, they don't necessarily want to, want to play with structure, but they know they have to for the sake of the team. But can coaches are smart enough, I think, to be able to give those type of players or know those players and give them a little bit more leg rope, if you like, to be able to— and you look at all the superstars in sport and in footy today, and they seem to have a little bit more leniency to be a bit more creative, I guess.

Yeah.

And I think that's important. You can't take that away from them, otherwise what's the point? And they need that themselves to be able to be motivated intrinsically to to play the game. So, so I guess the answer to the question is you need both.

Yep. Oh, great, great. And, um, just in role and responsibility, you mentioned there, you know, everyone has their role and responsibility, and I mentioned that's sort of changing depending what the dynamics of the, the game are. Um, how much of that is consciously being done by you, and speaking to you as a player now, versus you've just done this drill, you know, every day for the last 3 years and you're not even thinking, but you're just doing it. And then therefore, if your role changes, yeah, how does that dynamic sort of play out?

Yeah, it's a great question because that comes up, you know, and particularly again today, you've got to be able to play multiple positions. So players are expected to, to know the roles and responsibilities of other positions. Now, they might not necessarily play that that position or role much, if at all. But when they're called upon under pressure in a final, maybe when all of a sudden someone's got injured or something's happened, they have to be able to do it. So therefore they have to know it. It's like anything. I think if you're doing things day after day, it becomes habit and you know that really well. But it is your responsibility as a player to also know other people's roles as well. That's— that is very, very important for sure.

And as sort of, you know, captain and, and later on sort of coach, you're playing more of an influential role, not just yourself as an individual. How did you sort of, um, find that transition?

Um, yeah, look, initially I, um, as when I was playing in my playing career, I didn't have any inkling at all or, or necessarily want to be a coach or stay involved. in the system. But the opportunity was presented to me when I retired. Would I— do I want to stay on and be involved in some capacity? And so I was really fortunate and lucky that I was asked, number one. And I thought, well, look, I love the sport, and I think if I can give back— I don't know how, but if I can give back to the playing group and the club in some way, then yeah, I'd be interested. So I did that. I stayed on, and I was a bit of a jack of all trades, really. I, I was on match committee, I was the runner, I did a little bit of defensive work. I helped out training. I was a bit of an assistant conditioning coach, if you like. And this is going way back when the staff, there was nowhere near as many staff.

Yeah.

So it was much, much different. So it was a really good segue into my coaching. The following year, a line position for the backs came up. And again, the opportunity, I was there and I took that on board and I loved it. really enjoyed it. Um, so yeah, look, some people, some players find it really difficult to end their playing career and then go on with life, full stop, really, because they've had in some cases a lot of adulation, pats on the back. It's a real passion. They wake up in the morning and they've got this, this really strong goal. And then when that's gone, the next day virtually after you retire, what's next? And some people can really struggle with that. I was really fortunate, I guess, that When I retired, I reckon I was done both mentally and, and, and probably physically, which brought about the mental— my mentality that I was probably done. Um, you know, sustained a few injuries along the way and then it'd become really, really difficult at times to keep going. So after 14, 15 years, it's— um, yeah, look, I knew my time was up. I was pretty realistic and honest with myself.

Yeah.

And I guess I was lucky in a sense that I was the type of person that was able to leave that behind and then look for the next challenge in my life.

Yeah.

And then so that become— obviously had a young family at the time, but also apart from that, my work, my job at, at the club, which was Collingwood at the time. Um, and therefore I had a new, a new goal, a new aim, new passion. And so it become pretty easy.

Yep. Oh, fantastic. And, um, you mentioned sort of passion. I imagine it's quite rare for someone to have a playing career of 14 years, so congratulations. Obviously something was working There. I mean, we're sort of talking about competitive advantage or this sustained competitive advantage. How did you find over those 14 years, 'cause it's not all players get to have that amount of tenure and have the natural body telling you to move on to something else, which is, I imagine, why it would be quite hard when you still have the love and the passion for the game and you've still got your energy up. How were you sort of reinventing yourself to stay relevant within the game. And obviously that's happened within, you know, assistant coaching to coaching and having premiership. How have you continually stayed relevant?

Um, I think, um, you talked about competitive advantage before. I think I realized really early on in my playing career, even, even at the start of my playing career, I, I came in, um, and everyone's a good player. You're, you're on an AFL footy list, so therefore you're not necessarily better than anyone else. In some cases you might be a little bit better, and others not quite so. But I realized then, for myself personally, to have longevity in the sport that I love, that I needed to, to have a competitive advantage. So I'm thinking, what is that? What's something that I can grab hold of that will give me, I guess, sustained success? And for me, it was about living the life of a consummate professional. So back then in '80— I started in '87— it wasn't quite— it was obviously professional, it wasn't full-time. Didn't get to full-time until my last couple of years in my career. But for me personally, I decided I would be full-time professional in terms of my diet, sleep requirements, looking after my body, you know, even things back then, you know, doing extra training. going down to the club doing extras when things— when it wasn't really done by a lot of people back then.

Yeah.

You know, I was really anal about my, uh, getting the, um, hydration. So I used to carry around, you know, 2 liters of water all the time. Used to make sure I'd go to the sandwich bars and get, you know, the, the same meals all the time, get the rest that I needed. So I, I become really fanatical about, about that. And I, and I— and that was the life that I lived right through for the 14, 15 years that I played. It was was geared around that. And then, and that inner drive to, to make sure I did that, uh, not every second year but every single year, all the time, all through the year, I think really helped me. And, uh, yeah, and it really helped, um, you know, stay in the game for a long period of time.

Sounds like you've got a very significant base level that you were, you know, deviating. Maybe you had a bad day, but going back to such a— how did you refine that base of habits that you're doing each day? Was that a gradual process that you built in and then you added to it, or how did you come up with it? Did someone tell you about it?

No. Yeah, it's a great question. I've never really thought about until you asked me how I come up with it. Maybe I learned through watching others, but I do know that as soon as I got there, I realized that I needed to have that mentality and I needed to do that. Uh, yeah, it's a good question. Looking back now, I probably learned it from players that were down there subconsciously. There's not one particular player I can look at and go, yep, that's the one I followed. But I guess, you know, keeping my eyes open. I was a really skinny, immature, unconfident kid at the time.

Yeah.

So I didn't— you know, my nickname was Rowdy when I first got down there. Darren Malone gave me the nickname. So I didn't say a lot, but I obviously probably paid attention to what was going on around me. And I think probably from there it resonated with me that, you know what, this can help.

Yeah.

So, and the base level, yeah, I didn't deviate too much. I, you know, you're going to have good days and bad days, but I think I just backed— call it the system— I backed it in that it was gonna, that was gonna come to fruition. And, and then I felt the benefits throughout the course of the year, which gave me more confidence to keep doing it.

Yeah.

And then, you know, and then I got better at it. I learned more and I looked into it more. Okay, a bit more study around what is a good diet, how much sleep do you need, you know, massage, physio, all those sorts of things are really important. So let you know, so then I, I started really doubling down on those things and, and then learnt as I went on.

Sounds like you're sort of learning this, uh, it's been self-driven, where I imagine now being a player, being scouted, coming into the club infrastructure that would be a big focus in a current club. Is that—

Yeah, spot on. Yeah, that's the norm now. You go into an AFL club now and a young guy will— so when I first started playing, I think there was 55 players on the list. So you've got under-19s, the VFL back then as it was, and the seniors all on the same list from memory. So, and I had Lee Matthews as my first coach and he had just gone full-time as a senior coach. And I think he might've been one of the very first ones to do that. I think we had one assistant coach at the time and that was it. So now if you look at the coaching panels and not so much, say pre-COVID, it was outta control. It was like you'd almost having 3 players to a coach. And very specific coach from development coaches to, to defensive coaches, to S&C coaches, to nutrition, to psychology. You've got everything. And you go through a program where you learn all those tools and it becomes part of your daily life because you are full-time.

Yeah.

Whereas when I first started, you didn't have that. You had to learn that yourself or you didn't learn that yourself. But you mentioned the word inner drive. I think that's what it was. I think I had the hunger the determination, the dedication, I guess, to want to do that. You know, I was very passionate about the sport and, uh, and trying to get to as good as I could possibly be. So I think that's, that's what drove it. And therefore, I, I was self-taught to an extent. But you're right, nowadays, um, really, uh, and so therefore there were some gaps in the system, you know, clearly that some players didn't work it out. They, they They relied purely on talent alone. Whereas now the players that come in, it's given to them on a plate in terms of, this is, if you want to be the best you can be, this is what you need to do. So then it's a choice for them. Do I do it? Do I not do it? Whereas back when I started, it was a little bit like you've got to work it out yourself.

Yep. Yep. Yep. And sounds like you did and potentially even passing that wisdom through in these other roles that you're now involved in. Something you mentioned before was you were getting this— everyone that comes to the club is exceptional. Wasn't the right words, but you said people that make it into an AFL club team are obviously playing at the highest levels to just be able to do that. Everyone is a good player is your words actually I wrote down.

Yeah.

Knowing that, is that an environment where it's quite competitive that you know, there's concern over your role? Is that an environment that because you're all so good, you're all just naturally gonna be good together? What are some of the dynamics there that, are you all like, you know, are you all gelled by winning the Premiership or are you, is there competing, conflicting, you know, ego around, well, I need to kick these goals or I wanna get the sponsorship deal or I'd just be interested in—

Yeah.

All good players coming together sounds magical, but I imagine that's quite a thing to manage.

Yeah, it's an interesting dynamic because there are varying differences. You've got young kids coming in. I'll talk about when I first started, I wasn't worried about— to be brutally honest, was not thinking about winning a premiership. Uh, all— and it's human nature— all I was thinking about is, am I going to survive in this industry? Am I going to get a game? Am I going to keep getting a game? So you start off going in, and with the young, young players, all they want to do is is get a game. And then from there, uh, get their first game and then play regularly. And then once they play regularly, become great, I guess. Um, and then you've also got, uh, players that are on the verge who might be, say, getting on a little bit in their careers, or who are just hanging on because maybe they haven't quite got the necessary talent. So therefore, uh, there is competition for spots, and you, you know that. You know you can You're competing. I might be competing with Johnny, you know, and yet we still need to be working together and we still need to have a strong relationship. And when we get onto the ground, we still need to conform to the team rules and be selfless. And it becomes really, really difficult. And that's where you can come unstuck with some players' mentalities. Now I'm— and you've seen it, you know, everyone, we're all human, we're all built differently.

Yeah.

And some players can't do that. They— it's all about them. And when you get that attitude, like anything in life, that's when the team starts falling apart. So that's where the coaching is critical and the leadership is critical to make sure that everyone is aligned, whether you're a player who's coming in playing his first game or you played 300-odd games and you've won Best and Fairest. You all need to be able to know your roles. You know, it's a constant thing that AFL coaches always talk about. Know your role, play your role. It's said ad nauseam, but is it done well? No, not always. And I think the really, the successful clubs have the ability to be able to do that and their leaders are able to ensure that that happens. So yeah, it's a very interesting dynamic.

Speaking about interesting dynamics, maybe we'll just sort of switch gears and maybe talk about some of the contrasting components with corporate life. Versus maybe this high-performance environment you're talking about. Maybe something we can dig in is around feedback. So feedback and performance. So a typical corporate environment, maybe a quarterly, 6-monthly, or if that's not so great, maybe an annual review, which is, you know, a very lengthy document and you'll work through it and you'll go through it with your one-up manager. And at the end, you maybe— Somewhere in a, what is it, standard deviation, and that'll potentially determine if there's some bonus at the end of the year. So maybe talk me through now, what sort of feedback are you getting, receiving in this sort of high-performance environment? Where have you seen it sort of work really well? And how have you come up, how have you gotten over from a personal perspective, you know, our natural humanistic inclination to say, put up a defense, or how do you sort of break through that so it's a constructive feedback session? That's a lot of questions in there, Gavin.

No, I know, I know where you come from, and it's, uh, it is, it's a really interesting one because in the AFL system and, or any professional sporting world, I would imagine, um, talking through an AFL lens, is that feedback is constant. Um, not so much There is a gap with the coaching side of things, but from a playing perspective, so I can talk through both, playing is constant. You have a game, you are reviewed, and you are reviewed big time on the Monday after the game, so to speak. So the coach of that line, say you're a defender and your defensive coach or your backline coach will pore through vision for 5, 6 hours on his line or his 6 or 7 players and will be editing and writing feedback for that player for the Monday. So a typical feedback session might go for 20, 30 minutes. And within that is growth areas, opportunities to get better, but also just as importantly is showing the player what they do really well. Because it's no good, I've been guilty of this as a young coach myself, is you're restricted by time. I need to get this player up to scratch. I know he's good at this, but he's not so good at that. And this potentially holds him back. I'm drilling down on that, and it's all I was doing. And in the end, the players come into work big and, and they get a little bit like, gee, you know, they can become down on themselves. We are human. And, um, so it was a good lesson for me that you gotta, you gotta show them, if not as much but more of what they do. And we used to always talk about bringing your weapons. You know, you're here for a reason. You've got some great tools. That's why you're in the AFL system. So let's capitalize on those. Let's keep improving those as well. Let's not just work on the, on the RFIs. But having said that, it is, it is critical because for high performance you need to be able to improve the skills that you're not so good at and get better in those areas. But typically, yeah, you are doing a review with a young player, so to speak. I'll talk about a first, second, third year player maybe who comes in, and everyone's different. And I think, yeah, you're right, we're all human and you can get defensive when you're receiving feedback. I know I was. As a young person, even a young coach, someone gives you a bit of feedback. Yeah, hang on a minute, um, they're having a bit of a go at me here. So you take it personally. It's not until you, uh, realize that, uh, as long as that you have a relationship with that person, you understand that the— that where they're coming from and the intent is to help you. Once you have that connection with them and you know they're here to help, then it's much easier to, to take, um, I won't say criticism, but feedback for growth and improvement. And I think that's really important as a coach, as a leader, as a mentor, that you do have a connection or relationship with that person you're going to give the feedback to so that they know it's coming from a good place. I used to have a philosophy when I coached that, and I've got 2 young boys that played in the AFL system and a daughter who still is in the AFLW system. And I always used to treat the, the young players that I was coaching as if I would like my kids to be taught down the road. You know, how's that coach going to treat my kids when they're giving them feedback and coaching? That's how I'm going to treat this, this person. I thought if I do that, then I know I'm doing the right thing. You're not always going to get it right, but I think, um, it's coming from the right place.

Yeah.

So, so yeah, you, they, they need constant feedback. And the really good players I've found The ones that really go and become great, they crave the feedback. They want the feedback. And in some cases they don't worry about what I'm doing well, show me what I need to do better. They're lapping it up. So I think, I think that's really important if you want to become great, probably at anything. I'm referring to footy at the moment, is you need to want to get that feedback to help you get better because sometimes you don't know what you don't know.

Yeah. And You mentioned sort of weapons, you know, bring your weapons there. And one of the, um, one of the views that we've heard in, in one of our mastermind sessions was around this, the ROI of, of, of feedback or effort. And so if you're playing into your strengths and you're maximizing your strengths, you're going to get a bigger ROI than focusing on something you're not naturally good at. Um, you know, the other school of thought, which is becoming more rounded and bit of better at everything or a generalist, or maybe if you could talk about that model, is it about minimizing where you're not so good or is it about bringing, what's your sort of theory there?

Yeah, I've probably changed a little bit on the continuum. I've gone from, and probably because it stems from me as a player that I, I, and looking back, I, I probably needed to change a little bit. And the things that I did really well, I didn't, I didn't stop to smell the roses, so to speak. And, and, um, and I just accepted them, right? That's what I'm good at. Okay, I know I'm good at them. I need to get better at this. I'm going to pour all my energy into that. So as a coach, I probably followed suit a little bit. Um, but I've found now that it's probably, I think, more important, and maybe society's changed, that, that that we need to embrace and encourage and applaud what we do really well. Of course, in a really elite environment, you need to keep working on those things. But I think, as you said before, there's probably— if you can get to a baseline, I think it's important.

Yeah.

I used to think, no, I've gotta be good at everything. But I think it's important. No, I don't think that's necessarily possible all the time. So I think to get to a baseline, but then really embrace and applaud and significantly look at improving your weapons and your strengths. I think, yeah, it's probably where I've changed a little bit.

Yeah.

And I think because you're going to get a better outcome if, depending on your personality, of course, you've got to know who you're dealing with. In some cases that might not be the case, but generally I think we all like a pat on the back. And I think if we do something really well and we show that we're Encouraging that to a player, he's more likely to be inclined to keep doing it. So I think that's why it's important.

Okay. Oh, it's interesting that that's shifted over the time. So just talking about the pat on the back and sort of the positive reinforcement component that sort of goes with that. I mean, I'm envisaging an environment where you've got some fairly healthy um, I was gonna say egos, but healthy sort of, uh, people are successful just to be there. Therefore, you know, in theory they should have a fairly healthy, um, view of themselves and a high— I can't even think of the word, but I think you know where I'm going with it.

Yeah.

Um, do you taper that back in that circumstance so that, like, is it— is this sort of to the individual? Um, is it different? Or— and do you think you've shifted because Society sort of changed a bit now where positive reinforcement is very much encouraged and brought through this.

Yeah, yeah, no, I think you're right. And I think it's— I think maybe the word you search for is possibly self-awareness. And I've, I've seen, you know, I've seen guys come in with zero self-awareness, and in some cases that can be good. In, in some cases, uh, I, I've played with and coached some players who have this real talent and the coach can be, you know, they might be making the same mistake over and over and the coach can be really, really hard on them. But it's like water off a duck's back, you know. For example, you know, you might be in a big game and the player is a great kick. So his weapon is his kicking and he's continually looking to bite off a little bit more than, than what he should. And it's hurting the team. But in his eyes, I'm capable of doing that. I want to test myself. So it's that challenge between teaching them. We know you're good at that. We want you to, we want you to use your weapons. But at times, if you're not choosing the right decision or you're not pulling that kick off, you're actually hurting everyone. But they don't see it that way. So that self-awareness at times can hurt them, but other times you've got to, you've got to push. There's, there's others that come in and who do have those weapons and who, who do look at the consequences. And you've got to say, yeah, yep, we know there's consequences attached, but We're encouraging you, yep, you're going to make some mistakes, embrace it. It's going to happen. We're in a high-pressure environment, but we want you to use your— we want you to keep going for that kick. So there's competing interests with different types of players. So it's a really interesting one.

Yeah, it sounds like ever-evolving by the sounds of it. You mentioned before about you sort of deflate the guard that naturally comes up through feedback. It sounded like you had built relationship capital and they knew that your intent was, you were coming from the right place. Was there any advice you could give to people that are listening in thinking, well, that's all well and good, but what's the practical application of that? Or is it just too individual that, were there things that you did that helped you get that sort of position?

Yeah, yeah. Look, I think there, Looking back, I think there were things that I did. And you're right, I think it still does depend on the individual, but you still gotta have your own philosophy on it and your own process. So yeah, I think that's important. I think that I've— people used to tell me, oh, you've gotta have a relationship with them to get the best out of them. I agree with that. But some people— And you've gotta be yourself, you've gotta be authentic. And someone said to me, are you taking these players, are you bringing them home? And, you know, like some coaches I've noticed, they'll bring players home to the dinner table and meet the family and, uh, and they'll, and they'll create a really strong bond there. And, and I used to think about that and I've tried, I did try and it wasn't me. It wasn't natural.

Yeah.

I, I wasn't that type of person. It was a bit fake. I think the, the players I coached knew that I was really, really genuine and authentic, so I didn't have to do that. That didn't mean that I wasn't able to have a really strong connection with them and a relationship with them. And I think that, that by me asking about their, their family, having— showing interest in their lives outside of footy, I think was the catalyst to be able to do that. And showing, uh, showing empathy, I reckon, at times when they might have shared something with me and it wasn't going well, and, and I showed real, real compassion or, or empathy or interest in it. I think that's what builds strong working relationships. And I think that's— and I think the players that I coached, um, I think they, they knew that, that I was genuine and that I, that I was genuinely, uh, trying to make them better. And I think by, uh— and I was able to therefore then give them really strong feedback knowing that I had that relationship. But I also was really, really the first to, to encourage and, and applaud when they did things really well, and they appreciated that as well, I think. So that was my philosophy.

Yep, yep. Okay, great. Well, thanks for sharing. It sounds like having that sort of story about, you know, I would treat— maybe when you're talking about the younger individuals, you would treat, you know, you like to have them treated as you would like your kids to be treated in the similar environment. So it's nice to have that sort of anchor that you can come back to. My next question's around high-performance culture, high-performing teams. But coming from a place where it's not high-performance culture and it's not high-performing teams. So I imagine there's been a few locker rooms where the energy is off, and sometimes you come into the corporate environment, the energy's off. Any advice that you'd have around, one, having the self-awareness to identify it, and maybe any tips, tricks, processes, methods around how you can turn that around gradually, quickly? Yeah.

Yeah, well, yeah, I think you can learn. I've learned you can learn just as much what not to do as you can what to do. But I think that's come from tasting success as well. So therefore, and then being down the bottom of the ladder. And one of the big things is around communication. I think it's just paramount. It's critical that you have open, clear, transparent, consistent communication because I was always taught And I think it's true that when there's a void of communication, it'll be filled.

Right.

And people are gonna fill it in their own heads. They're gonna make things up and they're gonna think, not necessarily out of malice, but they're just gonna, if they're not getting communicated to, they don't know, they're not in the loop, they're gonna start overthinking things. And then all of a sudden that can turn pear-shaped pretty quickly because then they, in the locker room, you talk about, they're talking to their, their peers, their mates, or, you know, and then it becomes detrimental. And then before you know it, there's a bit of a landslide going on and it's hard to control then. So, you know, it's critical to have trust in a high-performance environment. And part of that is having really open, strong, clear, transparent, consistent communication, as I said.

And when you say sort of communication, are these what sort of What sort of mediums are you using? Are you— I mean, you're getting the team together, so you've got an audience, or are you communicating in other ways? What sort of— is there a whole method of—

Yeah, all the above. I think I come from one organization that the coaching was all about— it's a needs-to-know basis, right? And in some cases that's true, but sometimes you've got to be really careful of that because someone's interpretation of that is, oh well, they don't rate me, I don't need to know. So what does that— you know, they don't trust me. So that's— so I always come from— I try and be really open with everyone to include everyone so that everyone feels like that they are important, that they're needed. Even if at the end of the day it doesn't affect them and they didn't need to know, they still are in the loop and they still feel like they're involved and they're rated. I think that's I think that's the critical thing for me anyway.

Just out of curiosity, that environment where the needs-to-know basis was going, was that a high-performing or low-performing?

Well, it was low-performing in the end. Look, I'm sure that on the quiet at times, there's no doubt there is a needs-to-know basis. You can't be sharing— some information is really, really, I wouldn't say secretive, but it is a need-to-know basis. There might be something going on with someone that this person shouldn't know, let alone need to know. So therefore it's your obligation in that position of leadership to keep that within that inner circle. As long as that's not filtering out and loose lips sink ships and all of a sudden you're telling them and they shouldn't need to know and the person goes, oh, hang on, how come they know? And they've didn't need to know and I don't know. So as long as you're honest and you're true to yourself and you're consistent and that needs-to-know basis is kept rigidly and strongly where it needs to be, I think that's where it's important. But where I come from, that wasn't necessarily the case and that's where things become unstuck.

Yeah, right. Gotcha. And how do you— so when you're sort of having these communications, it sounds like Is it 2-way? Is it one-to-one? Are you having, you know, do you have a cadence? It sounded like you had a Monday morning review where you had about a 20-30 minute tape with each player.

Yeah.

I mean, as going maybe into your coaching role, um, are you setting the cadence? Is communication wrapped into that? You know, after every session, is it sort of summarized, documented back? Um, yep. Uh, you mentioned the word The T-word, trust, that I'd be interested to sort of, in a competitive environment there, how does that play out? Because you are swapping people in and out. How are you managing to keep trust and open transparency where you— maybe it's an idea that doesn't need to be communicated yet, or maybe just some advice about that sort of dynamic and managing that.

Yeah, particularly in the sporting world, in the AFL world, communication is is many and varied. And in some cases, we often hear players talk about too many meetings, but you'll have, as we mentioned before, you'll have individual meetings with your line coach. So that's an individual meeting, one-on-one. You'll have line coach meetings with your line. So I mentioned before, the backs, you might have 7 or 8 players, or in the VFL as well, you might have 10 to 12 players in a line meeting. So you are specifically talking about what happened and the feedback within the game. around those 6, 7, 8 people.

Mm-hmm.

So you've gone from a one-on-one to a small group, and then you'll have a team meeting where the whole team is affected. So therefore, in the team meeting, the communication is around not necessarily what happened in the line, but what happened overall as a team. But what happened in the line and individually affects what happens in the team. So you need to cover off, you know, full group, you know, small groups, an individual.

Yeah.

And you need to be able to cover all of that off. And as I said before, sometimes when I'm guilty of it, sometimes we think we have so much good information that we need to share all of it. And it becomes so time-consuming that you start losing the players. If you have a meeting, Mondays are big days. You've got your individual meeting goes for 20, 30 minutes max. You'll have your team meeting, your line meeting that might go for 30, 45 minutes. You'll have a team meeting that probably goes for an hour. And you'll have your casual conversations as well with other coaches and other players around your performance on top of that. So it's all bases are covered, but it becomes mentally really draining. So you've gotta be really careful as a coach that you're not overwhelming them because you start losing them. And as soon as you start losing them, it doesn't matter how much good information you've got, waste of time.

Yeah.

'Cause they're, you know, we've got an attention span and you've gotta try and keep them hooked for as long as you can. it can become difficult. So you need to have breaks, certainly. You can't have back-to-back meetings, that's for sure. Sometimes we should spread it out over the week if you can, but all of a sudden your, your post-match pretty quickly turns into your preview for your next week. So you need to get on to your next week.

Wow.

So you've got to leave it behind pretty quickly. So it's challenging, um, and, and you've got to be really disciplined to go, well, you know what, I can't— I've got all this great stuff I need to pick the eyes out of the best of the best and then share that. And then if it, you know, if I lose some of that, well, bad luck, because I want to keep— I had a coach who used to talk about keeping your players— fresh coaches, fresh players. So keeping them really fresh mentally as well as, you know, it's just, it's a big season physically for them getting banged up, but also mentally.

Yeah.

Mentally really challenging. So you've got to be careful how much communication Uh, and meetings you have with them.

Yes. Yeah, I, I would say that that's absolutely, uh, um, valid and happening across the corporate landscape as well, this sort of meeting fatigue. And, um, yeah, it's, uh, something that's, uh, not unique to football. So fantastic. But well, Gavin, I've really enjoyed sort of this conversation and looking at sort of, you know, this high-performance intense environment. You've got this weekly cadence of game and it's just sort of It intensifies what maybe what happens in a corporate environment but really brings it out. So I've really enjoyed, um, sort of seeing him under that sort of pressure or pressure cooker. Um, was there any questions that I haven't asked you just before we move into sort of some short answer that you thought, oh, you're on your way here today, you're like, oh, Dave better ask me about this because I've got a cracking answer?

No, not really. Look, you touched on it in terms of the difference between corporate and, and an elite sporting world. I mean You know, I've often thought about that, and, and probably we're all people at the end of the day, and we're all after an outcome and a high-performance outcome in most cases at that. So I think the only, the only difference is, you know, we've talked a lot about protocols and feedback and performance and team dynamics, but I guess the only difference in, in an elite sporting team, particularly AFL, is it's, it's a really popular sport and, and people want to— they want to know what's going on. So there's a lot of media coverage, and particularly these days there's a lot of social media about, you know, how a player or a team's performing, how much money that person's on, you know, what's going on in their personal lives. Whereas you probably don't get as much as that necessarily in, in a corporate world or in other worlds. But, but by and large, you're still faced with the same pressures and, and frustrations to be high performing. So it's all interlinked. The only difference probably being, as I said, that there's a little bit more scrutiny in the media around elite sport, probably.

Oh, absolutely. And I think that's, um, it's come up in some of, some of our media, or was it not disaster management, but sort of managing a breaking story and looking at sort of just the dynamic of a newspaper. I think it was the Herald Sun, and we counted, see, the 14 or 28 pages at the back that they've got to fill with stuff. Um, and you look at how many reporting staff they've got versus players, the ratio is ridiculous. Um, so it's not surprising that there's so much in the papers because they have to fill those pages with AFL-related content. So we sell some papers.

Exactly.

Um, no doubt you've, you've got some, uh, that's probably another podcast around, you know, helping individuals manage through, um, you know, breaking stories because there is such a profile on AFL players. Um, okay, so just going to switch to some of the short answer, uh, questions now.

So do you have a favorite quote or a mantra that you Um, yeah, look, I heard once, and it was when I was coaching actually, early days, um, on the radio, and I came in late on an interview. I was talking to, to someone. I just talked about, um, you know, making decisions as a leader and how difficult it is. And, and they just mentioned, and I've heard a number of times about, just do what's right. So do the right thing. And I've always embraced and adopted that philosophy or saying that I'm, I'm personally never going to make the right decisions all the time, but I feel like if I try and do the right thing, I'm going to be on the right track. then at least I know that I can put my head on the pillow and I've tried to do the right thing. I think you come unstuck if the opposite is true. So yeah, try and, you know, always try and do what's right.

Yep. That's good. Served you well so far.

Yeah, so far.

And well, it may even be the same, but advice for your younger self?

Advice for my younger self would definitely be probably back yourself in a bit more. You know, I think when I first started playing football, I probably, you know, capped myself in terms of my capability at times. And, and, you know, and I think I'm not the only one guilty of this, and you become a little bit worried, um, about the consequences. I think that, you know, probably advice to my younger self, don't worry about it, just go out there and, and go for it.

Yeah.

You know, um, and there's certainly times when I, I did do that and I learned to do that. And the funny thing is, and later on in your career, so you get through that and then you become a little bit all-conquering and bulletproof and feel like Superman. And then at the other end of your career, you start, um, with you so many experiences, you start realizing that the consequences are pretty drastic. So then therefore you start sometimes, or I did anyway, not backing yourself in it to do things at times because of the consequences. So yeah, I think that's— that probably would have been a good one. Just back yourself in.

And when you say consequences, is that that you can't play anymore, you're injured, or—

Yeah, look, it's just the responsibility. Yeah, as you say, you know, if you've got some injury concerns, you might let the team down, or, or, um, that you become too defensive-minded maybe, um, instead of being a little bit more attacking and playing a little bit more with flair. Um, I think that, you know, so, so either end of the spectrum. When I went in early days as a player, I probably lacked a bit, and at the very end of my career, I probably went back into Michelle. And in the middle part, when probably I had the most success, was when I was at my best, was when I was my most confident, proactive, you know, felt, you know, felt really good about myself.

It sounds like in that phase you're out of your head, and then at the start you're in your head, you're overthinking it, you're second-guessing. Yeah, yeah, maybe even a bit of imposter syndrome.

Yeah, yeah, all those things. Staying in the moment, you know, not worrying about the future, you know, don't, you know, forget about the past. You can't change that. Um, just staying in the present. I think I did really well without knowing it, um, for a long period of my career.

Yeah.

Um, and then as I said, you know, the very, very start when I'm trying to find my feet, you know, maybe, uh, look, look, it worked for me. I, I ended up making it, but, but maybe I could have, uh, done a bit earlier or done a bit better.

Um, yeah, if you've got the, the secret sauce to staying in the moment, whether it's, you know, as a parent, as a, as a corporate citizen, or as a As an elite athlete, um, it sounds like something worked there, but, um, if you know what it was, please share.

Well, it's interesting. Yeah, look, what was it I done? Look, I think it's just maybe just thinking about it now, it's just staying on task, having a really strong— you know, I used to have a couple of things, and they were just things for me that I knew that I needed to do to play well. And I used to always— and I had them up around my house there at varying stages times I was waning or wasn't going so well. And work, work hard.

Yeah.

And hit the ball hard. And they were very basic, um, they were really, really basic things, but for me they worked. And if I, if I didn't deviate on those things and I was really strong on those things in game, and as basic as they were, and if I stuck to them, I knew I would have a reasonable day or a good day. And I've heard Ricky Ponting talk about, you know, making notes to himself He came out and spoke to a group when I was coaching at North Melbourne, a young group, about, you know, he used to write notes about, you know, and I was really interested in what he said. And they were really basically just a couple of points. And one of them was, watch the ball, keep your eye on the ball. And I'm thinking, that's pretty obvious for such a superstar, but yes, so basic for him. So I thought that was interesting.

Yeah, that's, yeah, it's absolute no-brainer, but it makes complete sense. And bringing back that focus.

Fundamentals.

Well, that's fantastic. And I mean, we've sort of dug into a few of the habits and it sounds like you had that baseline around diet, sleep, looking after your body, whether that's physically, mentally, and then just having these focusing areas and that's getting you in the zone of performance. I think you may have shared the secret sauce there. Next question is just around a favorite book or a book relative to these topics that you think might be beneficial for someone to read.

Yeah, I read a book called Legacy, which I think is well documented about the All Blacks, about the leadership culture, high performance. And I was really eager to read that when I was coaching, just around how, because it's well documented how successful they have been as a team and as an organization. And I was intrigued. I loved that book. I thought it was terrific. Yeah.

A fantastic book and, um, yeah, would absolutely recommend it. And one of the concepts in there is around this sort of sweeping the sheds, which I just found, you know, it's an international elite club and clearly competitive advantage over many, many years relative to their population. It's unbelievable how they can perform for such a long time. It's at that. And then to have this grounding process of after the game, these elite athletes coming together to sweep the the change rooms.

Right. And the other thing I really loved about it is that one of their values is better people make better All Blacks. And I think that says it all for me, you know, because I'm not sure I mentioned, but I think integrity is the basis of good leadership. And I think there it is right there, you know, good people make better All Blacks.

So, well, it's an interesting sort of book that you've mentioned, and it is a different sort of code. Within corporates, we can look for the market leader or we can look at other business models and draw pretty good parallels or look at other geographies and sort of bring that concept here. With an Indigenous game, where did you sort of draw inspiration for best of class or was there pockets of inspiration? Because it's not like you can go to the big AFL and—

Yeah.

America, or maybe the NFL is another Indigenous example. But where did you— was there other codes, or how did you draw inspiration?

Yep. Um, so Mick Moldhouse, a famous AFL coach, coached the most amount of AFL games, used to always send his coaches off. And I coached under him. He used to send his coaches off every year, um, all over, either interstate or overseas, to study and bring back intel on on world's best practice. And he used to always say, I'm not too proud to take ideas from, from, from anyone if it's going to make us better. Um, probably why he had such a lot of success. But, um, so yeah, I actually spent a week— I was really lucky, he sent me over to Canterbury Crusaders in New Zealand.

Great.

And I spent a week over there. Robbie Doones was the coach at the time, and, um, and I was fortunate enough to be, to be involved in their coaches meetings and player meetings and Um, Richie McCaw was there at the time, the captain, and I remember him bringing his notebook into a meeting one day with the coaches. And I was just in the corner, but just to see this guy, this young guy at the time, 2003 or '04, I can't remember now, um, who was so organized. And, um, any wonder he becomes such a good leader. He, he turned up and I don't know whether he was told to bring a notebook, but he had it and he, he was writing notes and, you know, and he was right into it.

Wow.

And, and, uh, it was an eye-opener for me and, um, And Robbie Dean said to me, how did you go? He said, what did you take away from your experience here? Because he knew Mick as well, they'd had a relationship. And I was umming and ahhing a little bit 'cause there was a lot of little things. And he said, don't think that you have to rattle off 8 things that they're gonna change the AFL. Little things, even if you take one thing away from the experience, 'cause he used to say that he would always travel the world every year. And if he could bring back one idea, it was worthwhile. So yeah, but I, I learned a couple of things, particularly from an S&C point of view, that I was able to bring back. So yeah, I was lucky to go to the, the, um, the LA Clippers and spend a couple of days there.

Yep.

And, and just, just going out and, and spending time at different professional organizations. It doesn't have to be your code and it can be anything, you know, even in the corporate world, and, and bring back some really good ideas or even In some cases just consolidate, I think it's just as important what you're doing. I think that's equally as important and beneficial as coming back with new ideas. You know what? They're doing that. The All Blacks are doing that. We're doing that. Tick. So I think that can be just as important.

Fantastic. Well, I'm glad we went on that, or I took you down that little tangent. 'Cause certainly something that some of the feedback with our mastermind sessions is, It's great to see another example which either consolidates or gives you inspiration to maybe pick up something, but also, you know, taking the pressure away. Just one little thing and, you know, pick up that and, and take that along. Um, we're going to move into rapid fire now, so I'm just going to get my little stopwatch here ready. So we've got 60 seconds, and what I'm going to do is try and ask you as many questions as I possibly can within that short amount of time. Um, okay, so the alarm's on. You ready to go?

Yep, I think so.

Don't worry, you don't have to be worried. Uh, player or coach?

Player.

I probably should have, uh, said the rule, so it's one or the other. Uh, if you— yeah. Yep. Um, okay, which is without context makes it difficult. I'm gonna reset because I've been banging on too long. Sorry. Okay, so we did player or coach. Um, team dynamics or individual performance?

Team dynamics.

Giving feedback or receiving feedback?

Receiving feedback.

Long-term strategies versus immediate wins?

Long-term strategies.

Collingwood or North Melbourne? Uh, you don't have to answer.

I spent so long, I've spent 10 years at North Melbourne, invested pretty heavily there.

All right, we'll leave that one for later. Authenticity or empathy?

Oh, tough one. Ah, tough one. Empathy.

Sport or business?

Sport.

Winning or development?

Development.

Evolving leadership or consistent leadership?

Evolving.

Physical training or mental training?

I'll go mental.

Leading from the front or leading from behind?

Leading from the front.

Quick decisions or thought planning?

Quick decisions.

Process or technology enhancements?

Process.

Intuition or analysis?

Intuition.

Creativity or pragmatism?

Pragmatism.

Meditation or exercise?

Exercise.

Oh God, I don't know how to turn this off. Uh, fantastic. Thank you, Gavin.

I'll, uh, I'll probably— it'd be interesting if you did that to me again, whether I'd change a couple of them. But anyway, no, that was—

well, that's your exercise. That's the idea. I know you're, um, very well versed in high-pressure environments, so that was probably a walk in the park for you.

Yeah, it was high pressure.

But yeah, I guess it's just designed to ask you questions so quickly that we're tapping into the subconscious.

Yeah, it's good, good idea.

But you're still slightly awake with the Collingwood, North Melbourne. So I don't know if you'd deny—

I'd been there for 10 years and I've got so many good friends there and relationships. And it was my, in the end, even though I didn't have much success in the end, it was my livelihood. And Collingwood seemed such a, You know, clearly, you know, they've got deep-seated roots there because I played there and had success there. But, um, yeah, as I said, relationships are pretty strong.

Yeah, sounds like an unanswerable question.

Yeah, yeah.

Who's your favorite child? I won't ask you that. Well, Gavin, that sort of brings our interview to a close. And I know you've sort of— you're moving now into helping corporates, helping businesses, uh, establish their own form or even improve their form of high So just sort of calling that out, and I'm sure there's people that are listening in that would love to get in contact. We'll make that sort of easy through the website there. But just love to sort of thank you for being so generous with your experience. It's not often that we get an individual like yourself with your experience and just for being so open and willing to share it. And any sort of closing remarks or, you know, just to round out the conversation?

Not other than to say, you know, thank you. And no, I really enjoyed it. line of questioning was really interesting. So yeah, I've had some of those questions thrown at me before, but thought-provoking. No doubt I'll get in the car on the way home and think, how do I answer that?

You'll have a perfect answer.

But I really enjoyed it. Thank you.

Well, thank you, Gavin.

Thank you.