Mentorship in Motorsport: David Brabham and Pat Heuzenroeder Journey

All of a sudden, you know, the money that was supposed to be there wasn't there. So the big mental battle there was one, you know, I went from Formula 3 to F1, so I skipped, I skipped a category. So there was a lot to absorb around there. The car was obviously a lot faster than I was used to. The team politics was an interesting one because when I went into that environment, you know, the team was falling apart around me. The car was late. Half the car wasn't there till halfway through the year, the gearbox and rear suspension. It was just a mess and not what I thought Formula 1 was going to be about. So, you know, I walked into areas I just didn't know or understand how to deal with. And it's those type of experiences that you learn from and you grow. And as my career continued, yes, I had a lot of success, but I had a lot of challenges as well. I lost the hearing in my right ear. I lost my balance. So for like 6 years, my balance was completely out, even though I was still Alright, well, welcome to The Mentor List, David and Pat.

Thank you.

Thank you. It's great to have the 3 of us in here today, so we're sort of changing the format A little bit. Usually it's one-on-one, but today we're very excited to share a live mentor-mentee relationship with the listenership here. So maybe we might start with the mentee. So Pat Hoitzenroeder.

Yeah, spot on.

Tell us about where you are in your drive to F1 career, and that might paint a bit of a picture from a mentee perspective. And then we'll hear from David around who's your mentor, and we can can start digging into this relationship for the benefit of our listeners. But maybe, Pat, just a little bit about where you are at currently in this career journey you've chosen.

Yeah, well, thanks, Dave, for having us on the podcast. Um, so at the moment I'm competing in GB3 Championship over in the UK. It's the UK's leading single-seater championship that you can compete in and actually spills over into Europe for half of the championship. I did that same championship last year in 2024 Before then, in 2023, I made the jump over to the UK from Australia to compete in British F4. So it was all sort of swelling in Australia, and then to really compete against the best, you've got to go over to Europe, and that's where I'll be this year.

Cool.

So that's over in Silverstone, is that— so that they call that the home of motor racing, is that—

Yeah, I guess. I mean, I think, you know, motorsport was started around Silverstone and in England. Um, so it's, it really is the hub to be, uh, and, you know, just being over there, you meet people like David and open so many doors just, uh, being around motorsport there.

Yep. And just for the listeners, so Pat, your, your current age, so you mentioned 2024, how long, how long has this been going and your current age, just to give them a, a view of that?

So I'm 19 at the moment. I moved over to the UK when I was 16 and then competed, started competing in the championship when I was 17. So I live over in the UK on my own. I had mum and dad with me for the first year, and I think, you know, talking about sacrifices, they, they spent 4 weeks with each other the whole year, but they were just tic-tacking in the UK. So yeah, 19 at the moment and living over in the UK, so it's quite a big step.

Yeah, fantastic. Yeah, I can certainly resonate. I know what I was doing at 19. It certainly wasn't 3 years into a A progress tracker around, you know, vying for F1 eventually. So, David, you're our star mentor today. Maybe, um, and David Brabham is your name, it's a very famous family name in racing history, especially in Australia and globally. Maybe if you can share a bit about yourself, or maybe someone that hasn't come across your profile, and then we can get a sense for how Pat's sort of come to, uh, to be mentored by yourself.

Yeah, sure.

Look, thanks, Dave, for having me on. Um, yeah, my background, I guess, you know, from a family background goes back 7+ decades. So my father, Sir Jack Brabham, 3 times Formula 1 world champion, Australian legend, um, obviously started the journey in motorsport, and, uh, his sons and grandchildren, uh, are all in, in the industry. And for myself I actually started racing quite late, actually, when I was 17, started go-karts. And I eventually moved over to England a few years after that where I ended up being in Formula 1 and then sports cars, back to Formula 1, more sports cars, touring cars. So, I ended up having like 35 years of a professional career.

Wow.

And I also ran over in the UK the young driver development program for the governing body of motorsport, back then called the MSA, but Motorsport UK now. So I've always enjoyed working with young people and helping them to grow and become the driver they want to be. And obviously when Pat came to me, when was that? That was the end of—

End of '23.

End of '23. He was on a train journey, as you say, kind of in England you meet lots of people. He was on a train journey and met Karun Chandhok, who's an Indian F1 driver, and he's on Sky. He's a mate of mine. He was an ex-teammate as well. So they ended up having a chat and he said, oh, you should meet David.

So he thought I knew you. Yeah, yeah. I was like, well, everyone thinks Australians know each other.

Yeah, exactly.

I don't.

But yeah, so next thing, Pat You know, gets introduced to me and I said, yeah, come to my office. So we sat and had a bit of a chat, listened to his story and then over the Christmas period because I was kind of thinking of getting back into this kind of mentoring and management role, it was, it kind of made sense to reach out to Pat and say, hey, would you be interested? So that's where it all started and we've been working together now for just over a year. Wow.

Fantastic. Yes, Sir Jack Brabham. So, I mean, tell me a bit about, because there's the Brabham racing stand. I was looking at the Grand Prix map to working out where I'm going to be this weekend.

Are you going to the Brabham stand?

I'm not that lucky. No, no, no.

I got 4 tickets for that.

Oh, wow. Okay.

They're taken though.

Yeah, there you go. Well, I might see you in the stands from the general access areas. But So tell me what it's like having a big family name. I mean, there's obviously pros and potentially cons to both of them. Maybe from your perspective, how has that sort of been beneficial with helping, I don't know, get into the sport? You mentioned late at 17. I can't believe that's actually the reality.

Well, my dad didn't want me to go racing. It's as simple as that.

Why is that?

I think there was a number of reasons. I think, you know, it's It, it, um, he had a farm, um, and it was like, well, the other 2 have gone racing, who's going to be the farmer?

Yeah.

So I went to an agricultural boarding school, um, and yeah, there, I mean, obviously no motorsport discussions really around, around that. And so I was being groomed to be a farmer, and it wasn't until I went to America to see my brother racing and I saw a go-kart that that was the spark for me to go, actually, I'd like to have a go at that. And that's, that's kind of where it really started. But growing up in Australia, I guess I had a slightly not normal life in that sense because, you know, my dad was probably one of the most famous names in, in, in Australia. So, you know, everywhere I went, it was, that's Jack's son, that's Jack's son, that's Jack's son. Or, you know, it was It was insane, really. Every time, everywhere we went, Dad would get stopped. Autographs, pictures. And I'm a kid now. I didn't really understand what he was really all about other than he was my dad. And there was a bunch of trophies in the, in the house, which I didn't really understand either. They were just objects to me.

So, um, things to play with on the roof.

Oh, well, yes, that came later. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Pat alluded to me being on the farm, picking up one of my dad's trophies and standing on the roof because I love to climb stuff. And whether it was trees or the house, I'd climb the house quite regularly. I'd get on top of the roof.

Yeah.

And my mum was gardening and all of a sudden I'm starting to do a victory speech holding his trophy, not even thinking that I would become a racing driver at that point, but I was acting out.

Right.

Being on the podium and, and, you know, thanking everyone and all that sort of stuff.

And did, uh, I mean, having the family name, was there just an implied intention, uh, expectation? So you mentioned 17, you've seen your brother racing in the States, and then you're getting behind the wheel of a go-kart or whatever vessel it was. Was there just an expectation that, oh, he will be excellent at this because, you know, there's a family history there?

Yeah, I think definitely, um, the expectations I think were very different to, let's say, someone that was new to the sport and didn't have any family background or sort of that kind of success that my dad had. I was lucky in a sense that even though I didn't like— I, not that I didn't like, I didn't think about racing, but on the farm I drove flat out and sideways.

Mm-hmm.

I loved speed. I loved to balance the car or drifting and Should have been a rally driver, to be fair. But speed and excitement, like I said, you know, I climbed trees, I, you know, rode bikes flat out, I rode— drove tractors flat out and sideways where I could. So I was developing my skill set even though I didn't really think I was going to be a driver. So when I did get in a go-kart, I was fast straight away. So I kind of met the expectations quite quickly, and my progression was quite quick. So from the minute I sat in a go-kart, you know, sort of 7 years later, I'm sitting at Monaco on the Formula 1 grid for my very first Grand Prix.

Yeah.

So it happened quite quickly. Um, but yeah, I remember my first— the first press release that came out about me joining the Ford Laser Series, and it said David Brabham finished an excellent, and they hadn't filled it in. And it's like, that was the expectation, that I would be doing excellent in my first race. You know what I mean? My first ever like road race, you know, instead of karting, this was a Ford Laser.

So, wow.

Yeah.

Um, so maybe that's a good segue, Pat. Uh, we sort of talked about, you know, big family name expectations. You, you've come from a maybe a different, more, um, more of a starting point. I know there's, there's obviously family history where there's passion in motorsport. There's a couple of fantastic automobiles that you've, uh, got in the family that you've been able to get access to, but Was it by accident, or how did you find yourself going in this path?

Yeah, I mean, like you said, it was, it was always on the TV in the family home, and my grandpa on my dad's side was very much into cars, not necessarily racing, but just into old cars and tinkering. So whenever I'd go and visit them, I'd get behind the wheel of something old and, you know, learn how to drive it and things like that. I was mad into cricket and playing at quite a high level before switching to motorsport, and that was the path I wanted to take. So it really was just a chance visit to Eastern Creek Motorsport— well, karting track— and just doors opened from there, really. We met people that you wouldn't expect to meet at a go-kart track. They introduced us to people, and then all of a sudden we've got a go-kart, and a few months later I'm rolling out of pit lane. So it wasn't you know, really anywhere in my mind that I would be racing. I was just happy, you know, watching and sort of taking an interest in it. Um, but yeah, things progressed pretty quickly after that.

Yeah, it sounds like you've had some chance, um, meetings in strange and interesting places that have then had a really sort of pivotal, uh, push in sort of your direction.

Yeah, I, I think definitely. I mean, everyone that I've met is sort of you know, quite liked the way I operate and the way I go about things, that they really want to encourage me and get behind me. So, you know, whether it's meeting Karun in London or meeting a, you know, driver coach that Dad was like working with at the time, and him saying, look, we need to get him in a car. And then I went in that car and he got me into a Formula Ford. And, you know, and then Motorsport Australia getting behind me and saying, after this Ferrari driver selection camp and saying, look, we've got to get you overseas because this talent has to be sort of explored and, um, you know, the potential maximized if we can.

Yeah, so it sounds like it's fun. Talent was identified, or natural raw talent, and now we're overseas and now it's real. Um, so tell me about that transition. Now you've obviously got one of the best mentors that you possibly could have wrapped around you, so from a support perspective, I guess the expectations starting to come in there now, whether that's yourself or your support team around you. Um, tell me about, uh, yeah, what it's like being in what I imagine is a very competitive environment. I mean, are you living with the other drivers? How does it all work? What does it look like?

Yeah, so I live, I live with a host family in the UK, so definitely landed on my feet there. Um, don't have to worry too much about cooking and sort of living on my own, I guess, which is nice, and I can just focus on myself and my racing. Definitely, like you said, very competitive. I mean, we're talking hundreds and thousands of tenths making a difference between 1st and 5th, and then 1st and 5th making the difference between a supporter getting behind you or not. So there is a level of expectation, I think, now because I just competed in New Zealand in the Toyota Formula Regional Oceania Championship. That was successful. And this year in GB3, you know, I think I am looked at as, as one of the people to win the title, and I definitely think I can. So expectation comes into it. It's always been there for me, and now I think a few more people are getting behind it and, and sort of believing that I can get to the top.

Do you think you can, or do you know you can?

I know I can.

Thank you.

There we go. Which might sort of bring in maybe a conversation. It's a great little reminder there, David, around mindset. So I guess you mentioned before about, you know, your first F1 drive in Monaco. So you've obviously lived and breathed, I guess, the stress and the games that the mind can play. Maybe if you could share some perspective on that and how Being there before and how you're sort of now articulating that with Pat to help him when he's going through these scenarios. Um, be great to get this.

Yeah, sure. I mean, um, obviously I talked about being on the grid at Monaco, but the race before that I didn't qualify, right? So, um, we had, uh, when I went to Brabham F1 at the time was obviously pretty exciting and You know, my dad started it in the '60s and the Formula One team continued without him, but pretty successfully. And in 1989, they had a pretty good car and a pretty good, pretty good results. They finished third at Monaco and stuff like that. So when I was asked to drive, I thought, great, I'm in a great team, you know. But when I got there, the financial crisis that went on at that time, there was a big global problem, right? Uh, and the Japanese owner that, you know, went from a billionaire to a millionaire overnight.

Um, nothing to do with the—

Nothing to do with the racing. It was just the financial crisis that was going on. Japan was hit really hard, um, as he was. So all of a sudden, you know, the money that was supposed to be there wasn't there. So the big mental battle there was one, you know, I went from Formula 3 to F1, so I skipped I skipped a category, so there was a lot to absorb around there. The car was obviously a lot faster than I was used to. The team politics was an interesting one because even though in today's world, you know, if Pat was at Formula One at 19, 20, 21, it would be seen as fairly normal. But, you know, I was 24, I was second youngest on the grid, right, with not that much experience. So half the team were like, well, why is he in the team? Because We want someone more experienced, which is what they were used to. So, but I had half the team that kind of wanted me. So you were kind of like in a really strange situation where the year before in F3, everything was molded around me because I was the one winning the races and the championship. I won the British F3 Championship and the Formula 3 World Cup, you know, against Michael Schumacher, Mika Häkkinen, all those guys. So I was seen as the kind of the next the next star as such. So, um, when I went into that environment, you know, the team was falling apart around me. The car was late.

It had—

half the car wasn't there till halfway through the year, the gearbox and rear suspension. It was just a mess and not what I thought Formula 1 was going to be about. So, you know, I, I walked into areas I just didn't know or understand how to deal with, you know what I mean? Um, And it's those type of experiences that you learn from and you grow. And as my career continued, yes, I had a lot of success, but I had a lot of challenges as well. I lost the hearing in my right ear. I lost my balance. So for like 6 years, my balance was completely out, even though I was still racing.

Right.

So you're having to find ways of keep— keeping going. And there are days when, you know, you think, you're kind of mentally exhausted trying to keep going, but deep down you know you've got to and you find ways of doing it. So I kind of feel like I've lived the highs and the lows. So when I'm working with young drivers, certainly like with Pat, you know, and I see some of the challenges he's going through mentally, you know, might be some self-doubt, might be, you know, just not quite getting there where he needs to be in the mindset and things like that. I've lived it and I can see it really quickly. And I, and I helped Pat, you know, just shift slightly in his thinking because to me it's all about the way people think. You know, it's, it's Pat's creating his experience through thoughts, feelings, emotions, words and actions. And if you just focus on the human being and the human being that creates that experience, Then you can make changes. And when Pat— I can't, it's Pat. Pat's got to make those changes. So it's when he starts to think differently about something, the world changes for him. So that's, that's my way of mentoring is getting inside what goes on the individual, how they think, what they're thinking, how they're saying it. Example earlier, I think, I think I can win. Whoa, whoa, hang on. Do you think or do you know? Because there's a massive difference.

Yeah.

Between I think I can do something or I know I can do something. So you can feel the energy change within you when you just say those words.

Yeah.

And I can feel it when you say it. So, you know, that's kind of the way I work with drivers.

Yeah. And I mean, sort of the language is super important. And did you have, you know, is there habits and Um, like, how do you— when you talk about going from F3 to F1, so to prepare for that race, like, mentally so that you're clear, how long does a race go for? Just—

Well, that really depends on the car too, right? Because the reliability that year, some of the races just didn't last that long. But, um, back when I did it, there was 30 cars going for 26 slots in qualifying, and it was so competitive. down the end there. I mean, sometimes I missed out on qualifying by like, you know, 2 tenths, you know, or a tenth, or, you know, half a tenth, or, you know, it was, it was that. And they were very good experienced drivers that were back there. Michele Alboreto, Stefan Johansson, myself, um, Roberto Moreno. There was, there was, there was, there was really good experienced drivers. They were either in or they're out because of the machinery that we were all driving.

Yeah.

So, you know, the, the pressure to put your lap together to try and even qualify for the race back then was, was, was a lot of pressure to deal with, you know. Um, and I would say you're learning on the job too. And the preparation that someone like Pat does now with, you know, young racing drivers, they've got the simulators, they've got all the data. They've got the videos, they've got so much more than what we had in the day. You know, if we got around the racetrack to have a look to see which way it went, that was about as good as we were going to get. And then you had to learn the track really quickly, which obviously helped you to learn tracks quickly further down the road anyway. But we just didn't have that data. They've got so much more information.

Makes it very close now as well, I think.

Yeah, it makes it extremely close. But at the same time, and we've seen this with, with you halfway through last year, you know, I kind of felt like, I think we're getting a little bit too reliant on the data and information and not getting it from inside.

Right.

So I took the data away at Snederton.

Yeah.

I said, right, you're not looking at data, you've got to figure this out. And he's like, what? Yeah. But The process worked because all of a sudden he had to think more about where he could go faster, what he had to do in with himself, but also what did he need from the car to go faster. He had to start to figure that out. And sometimes you've got to bring those things in for the development of the driver. And he responded really well because all of a sudden he's writing all this stuff down and he's, he's thinking about it. And then the progress really started to Accelerated again after, after that.

And then you see it again a few months down the line, or, you know, half a year down the line in New Zealand, where you're just having to analyze yourself while you're in the, in the session, because you can't look at data when you're in the car, obviously. So you have to go, how could I approach that corner differently? And it has a lot, yeah, a lot to do with, um, self-analysis, I guess.

So you mentioned, um, yeah, New Zealand was a, was a success. So, successful trip over there. So, maybe just paint a picture. What are your metrics? Because I mean, there's obviously the podium finish, which we all kind of, you know, resonate to, and champagne flying everywhere. I'm not sure if that was part of that cup, but what are the metrics that means that that was a success?

Yeah, I think we, well, we established some goals before heading to New Zealand. wanted to come out of there a race winner, and I did that in the last weekend, almost did it twice, and, you know, got dominant race win, pole position, multiple podiums, 4th in the championship, ever so close to 2nd, and to challenge those drivers that were there with far more experience than me was very successful. So that's, that's really what made it a success. And New Zealand, for those who don't know, it's It's a championship that is a lot of— is a winter period, a winter offseason sort of preseason championship that you go and race in. And so you get drivers from F3, F2. We had the Supercars champion Will Brown there. You had IndyNext drivers from America. And so really is a whole bunch of drivers from different championships coming together to compete. So you get to race against drivers you don't often race against in your usual championship. So to prove myself against those was, was what really made it a success and a nice confidence boost into 2025.

Yeah, yeah. And I guess, um, yeah, how much of sort of your, your own sort of judgment of your— not judgment, but your own sort of factoring of your success is based on, you know, your own PB versus— I mean, if you're flying laps and you're getting PBs, personal bests, every lap personally Is that the win, or does it need to be that but better than, you know, the other 2 tenths of a second? Or how do you sort of manage that?

Yeah, it's always nice to, you know, go faster than what you were, but sort of at the pointy end of championships, you can do well, you can come in and you're a tenth off, and you'll be like, how am I a tenth off? I need to find that tenth to be first. And so Yeah, it is. You know, my, my old go-kart, go-kart coach used to say performance, not position. For if, if things go wrong, how did you bounce back? How did you perform yourself? But when you're challenging for championships and wins, it's all about beating everyone else really in the end. And, and results are the things that matter, not just beating what you've done previously.

And okay, so obviously the driver, you've got a very, very big part of the team's success or not success. And you mentioned it before, David, around, you know, coming straight into F1 and there was sort of politics at play. And, you know, you mentioned the word team. Maybe could we explore that a little bit further around how much of it is the car, how much of it is the driver, you know, what are the scenarios that can play out there, just so we can get an understanding of what's involved in this path that you're sort of on?

Yeah, I mean, yes, like you said, the driver gets to stand on the podium and spray the champagne, but everyone behind you and around you— the team, the engineer, the mechanics, the truckies, even like, you know, the catering people— um, everyone is willing you on to win. And when you win, they win as well. When you lose, they lose. So I have to put it You know, a lot of trust into the mechanics that they do bolts up, so then when I go into a corner at 200 k's an hour, nothing's going to break and end badly. You have to have an extremely strong relationship with your engineer, because if you, if you don't have that communication and that connection, then things can go, you know, you can miss things, then you lose time. And, you know, and so it really is a massive team sport. I don't think people realize that. you have to build that team around you. So you have to get to know the mechanics and engineers. And I think a great example of that is in, in New Zealand. We had the first 2 race weekends. My engineer and I were getting along and, you know, things were going along, but there was just a little sort of—

Edge.

Yeah, it's a blank spot that we couldn't quite put our finger on. And David, you know, with so much experience working with different engineers and at different teams, recognized that and said, I think you need to sit down with your engineer and just explain what you'd like more of and what you want less of. And then he actually came back when I did that, he came back and said, okay, Pat, I think you could do more of this or less of this. And after that, it was just, the relationship was so good. And that's when the results started coming as well. So it was—

But it was more than just your engineer. It was the whole—

It was the whole team.

The whole team. So by the time Pat finished round 2, where it was a little bit— wasn't in sync, the energy in the team could have been a lot better. And then by the time the end, when he won his race, he 100% had literally, obviously, other engineers working with other drivers.

Yeah, yeah.

And everyone in the team all were focused on him. So he was able to galvanize that team around him. By his attitude, the way he treated people, and also, you know, his performances on track where the whole team was willing him to win. And that's a powerful thing to happen around you because that just gets more out of you. It gives you more confidence and you can sense it even though consciously you might not think too much about it. You do really, you do feel it. So that, that gets the performance levels higher and higher to the point where Pat's like, bang, pole position, bang, won the race, dominated. And everyone is so happy for him, obviously, as well as him. But, you know, it showed— it was a great example of how to bring a team around you to get more out of them and to get more out of you.

And how does it sort of work bringing this team together? So you've obviously gone over there for a certain championship, like, do you have to— like, excuse my naivety, and I can't say that word— do you have to take your own car to the track, or is there a car that's provided? Like, I'm just thinking, and then we're talking about an entourage of engineers and other people within a team. This is quite a, um, you know, commercial outlay, I would suspect. But how does that actually work, bringing a team together? I imagine there's some you know, sponsorship components involved? And how does it work to, um, to be able to actually do it? Because making the decision to be, okay, I'm going the path of F1, obviously there's quite a strategy and, um, discipline around making that, that aspiration a reality. And then obviously the performance. So it's about 50 questions there, Patrick.

No, that's right. I'll see if I can remember them. Um, so, so you join a team So they, they've got their spot in the championship already.

Right.

They have in New Zealand 5 cars, in GP3 they'll have 3 cars. Generally makes up a grid of around 20 to 25 cars each championship. And so you join the team, there'll already be mechanics and engineers there. So then when we talk about bringing a team together, it's not actually picking and choosing across the world and saying, I want you and you come here and things like that. It's actually just—

The team does that though.

The team does do that. Yeah, yeah. So the driver arrives and, and the team is there already. So bringing the team together is getting everyone gelling and working together and getting to know them. In the UK, it'll be heading down to the workshop, you know, just spending a lot of time with people so you get to know who they are, where they've come from. And, and, you know, arriving early, looking at data, showing you're dedicated, and then leaving late, making sure you thank everyone. even if they're not part of your team specifically, they'll be another car's engineer or mechanics. And, you know, you still get to know everyone. And I think that's what David touched on before, is in New Zealand in the last 2 rounds, and I was, you know, probably up within the top 2 of the championship by then pace-wise, I could really feel mechanics and engineers from other drivers getting behind me, which was very sort of significant. Um, and then what was the other part of the question?

Oh, there's so many in there. I was just more interested—

I think you've probably answered it.

Were you creating the team, or it sounds like the team is being created and you're an integral part of that team coming in with a specific, um, championship.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But perhaps that's then, you know, your next race in a different championship, the same thing would happen and you're So you're sort of building a CV of performance, to call it a CV, I'm not sure.

Yeah, that's right.

Or racing history. So then you're getting invited into different teams and that sort of—

It doesn't always work like that though. You know, obviously at Pat's level, it's very professional. You know, the budget has to be found to pay the team and off you go racing. They've got the mechanics, the engineers, and so forth. You know, more on the club level where it all starts. You know, a lot of people do it themselves. You know, they put the car in. I did when I did Formula Ford. I had a trailer. I put the Formula Ford in the trailer. I had a mechanic and I had my mum, which was— my dad was always traveling, so my mum was there doing the timing and scoring like she did back in the '50s and '60s.

Yeah.

You know what I mean? So there's so many, you know, people that do that. But when you go up to, to the next level, you know, when I went from Formula Ford to the next level, obviously there was a team. I, I wasn't allowed to touch the car anymore in terms of mechanical stuff because they had mechanics to do that. They didn't want me to get in the way with that. So, okay, fine, you know. But so yeah, it depends where you are in the, in the level of racing.

Yeah.

You can do it yourself or you go with a professional team.

Yeah.

And what's sort of the, I mean, it sounds super competitive. What are the, you know, you're mentoring Pat and Pat, you're sort of striving for, you know, one day having the pole start in F1. I would imagine that's the goal. And then what are the, what does the runway look like? So what, how do you plan to be positioned to be one of those drivers? What does that sort of look like?

So, so I'm GB3 at the moment. That's a very recognized sort of step to Formula 1, and it's, it's all single-seaters up, up that ladder. Um, you'll see this weekend for the Grand Prix in Melbourne, the F3 and F2 are racing. And so my goal for next year is to be on that F3 grid. So first round in Melbourne, 10 rounds on the Formula 1 calendar with Formula 1. Um, but you do need backing. Uh, so there's, like David said, a financial cost to racing. And luckily I've had the parents— I still have my parents, right?

Yeah, fair enough.

They'll be pleased to hear that.

I've had their support to get as far as I can, yeah, but, but the step to F3 will require some backing. So that'll be, you know, individuals getting behind me, and I'll sort of get— well, not get back behind them, but thank their support by keeping them in the loop of how I'm getting on. Um, it could be high net worth individuals that are generous, and, uh, you know, drivers in the past have been lucky enough to have those back them up to the top. Um, and then you've got the business side of things, so backing a car, putting a sticker on the car, um, business to business sort of discussions that go on. And, uh, you know, motorsport is growing massively due to this Netflix series. I think it's brought a lot of recognition to not even, you know, Formula 1, also the junior formula below it. So, so it'd be on the F3 grid next year, uh, and then step up to F2, whether that'd be 2 years in F3 or 1, but up to F2, um, and then, you know, be a champion along that step into Formula 1.

Well, maybe David can tell you the secret how to skip F2 straight into F1.

Oh yeah, well, that's still a part. Yeah, well, to be fair, um, Uh, I was going to be doing the sort of the next level from F3, which was at the time Formula 3000. And the team that I was racing for had bought the Brabham F1 team, so they were expanding pretty quickly. You know, like I said, the financial crisis put an end to all of that. So by the time we were about to start the season, the first test with a new car was actually going to be Damon Hill's teammate. So we were both going to be racing together. And then I got called into the office. We're stopping the F3000 team because of budgets, because of what was going on around the world. Uh, we're canning that, but we want you to be in F1. So I wasn't even thinking that I was going to be a Formula 1 driver. I thought 2 years in Formula 3000 and I might get to Formula 1.

Yeah.

But I, I skipped, I skipped that through circumstances more than anything. Thing. And I think also because it was so much harder back then to find sponsorship and stuff like that, having a Brabham in a Brabham, they probably thought, oh well, that, that'll help the PR side of it to, to get, get the attention. But of course the financial crisis was such, and the results during that year weren't great. Yeah. So, um, you know, that, that put a challenge on the whole, the whole project, and Brabham finished up collapsing midway through '92 anyway. So it sort of did, you know, made it dead and buried after that.

Yep. So you mentioned sponsorship. It'd be great to sort of peel back a couple of layers because my simple thinking is here's X amount of dollars and now I get my profile somewhere on the car or brand or logo, but I know it's a lot more Potentially sophisticated than that. And you mentioned the Netflix show or series really accelerating people's interest in the sport. And I mean, it's a great example. The Melbourne Grand Prix is the largest sporting event in Australia now. I mean, just try and book a hotel at the moment. It's unbelievable here in the city around people flying in for the, what is the first race of the season. Um, maybe talk about the sponsorship, uh, side of it. And, you know, for, for the corporate, um, individuals that are listening in, some from their perspective, you know, what are some of the markets and channels that that can help unlock, or the benefits of sort of looking into sponsoring, uh, whether it's the individual or the team, or— yeah, just maybe a 101 for that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, yeah, so So really, like I said, motorsport isn't cheap, so it does require backing to get sponsors behind you. GB3, you know, there's a few layers to it. You've just got donations, you know, just wanting to back a young driver to Formula 1. Then you've got coverage in terms of putting a sticker on the car, social media coverage. The GB3 team I race for Also have an F4 team that race along British touring cars, so you can put stickers on my car as well as their cars. That gets around, you know, 80,000 views a weekend as spectators and then views as well as online. And then you've got the business-to-business side that I touched on earlier. So for example, I had a potential partnership going on last year which unfortunately didn't go through, but instead of putting Their sticker on the car. They would put their supplier sticker on the car. So if you're trying to get into a supermarket, you wouldn't put your brand sticker on the car. You'd put the supermarket's brand because they then you say, "Look how much coverage you're getting," and then we can get our product into your supermarket. Then of course there is the you know tailored I guess completely how do I word this? completely, you know, you can do whatever you want. It's fully flexible. If you just, you know, feel like backing a young driver but you want something from it, you know, you can do whatever you want and have me come and talk at a function or go into a track day, get in a go-kart, you know, go on a flying lap, and, or, you know, like this weekend, have me in a box and explaining what Formula 1 is all about. So there are quite a few aspects for it. And If anyone's interested.

Yeah, you know, you have been flying laps.

Yeah, exactly. So it's a, it's a good way to sort of get around Formula 1, um, especially if I'm on the F3 grid next year. You get the same sort of exposure without paying the big bucks of Formula 1. So I don't know if you've got anything to add to that, David, but—

Um, yeah, I think, um, what's, what's been important is that there's a lot of companies getting involved in motorsport. So, you know, when you walk into the paddock and you see all the different cars that are being sponsored, you know, the event brings everyone together. So all the key state players that make decisions, they're all in one place. So it's easy access to get to the person you've been probably trying to get hold of, you know, trying to get a deal across the line. It's a bit like going off and playing golf and and then you're having a nice easy chat about it. You know what I mean?

Yeah.

It's the same sort of environment in motorsport, which obviously is a high-octane kind of environment. And, you know, so many deals get done in the background through a motorsport platform. And of course it depends on the type of sponsor too. You know, they might be really looking for that B2B type environment or they just need pure exposure to let everyone know who they are. And of course, motorsport's so popular, it allows, allows people to, to feel confident about putting money behind, you know, drivers like Pat, or, you know, depending on what category and that expense they want to, want to do. Or do they want to, you know, toe in the water with someone like Pat and then grow it and get to Formula 1 on that journey? So you start opening up all those channels to other people.

And just sort of as a very much a ballpark, you know, if I think about F1, I think about the, some of the brands that are associated with it. I mean, just for someone, just for simplicity's sake, what is sort of a level which you could start to get involved with? I'm not talking about branding the whole car because that might be a bit intimidating for a small business owner like me, but how could How little could it start at, or how simple could you start at looking to get involved from a sponsorship perspective?

I think as little as you want. Obviously, individuals and companies have different values and wealth behind them, so it really can be customized, whether it's helping cover the cost to come to the Grand Prix for my flight, or covering a set of tyres or helping me buy a new helmet or something like that. You know, you get your brand on my suit, on the car, on my helmet, and then from there it's really what sort of response you want from— in terms of like how big you want your sticker on the car and/or B2B, whether you want me at the track or things like that. So it really is very customizable. And for anyone that wants to get involved, it can be from, you know, like I said, just helping cover little things to then backing me all the way to Formula 1.

Fantastic. And so just for those that do want to get involved, because I know there is a way they can get in connection with you, how do they go about finding you if it's online?

Uh, so I have a website, uh, pathoitzenroeder.com, uh, on LinkedIn, Pat Hoitzenroeder, or you can just send me an email pat@pathudsonroader.com. So obviously open to anyone getting in contact and any questions they have, I'm more than happy to answer.

Fantastic. And you can get in early, uh, while you're on this fast track.

Get in on the ground floor, that's what we've got to say.

Yeah, ground floor, I like that. Um, okay, so I just wanted to ask a question, just, uh, thinking about from the listener's perspective. I mean, the F1 is a huge source of innovation, especially into the automotive industry.

Yeah.

You know, my naive assumption is that's around the pressure and the sort of intensity of this. You know, from your perspective around high performance, you know, this type of environment, you mentioned sort of pre-race, race, post-race, this whole feedback loop around driving high performance, maybe just give us a bit of a flavour around how that works operationally. So what, what is your next race? What's the prep that goes into it? And then what are you looking to sort of, you know, draw out of it from analytics? And how is that then— what, what are you looking at from a performance perspective?

Yeah, so, so my next race will be the end of April, uh, just the week after Easter, but we started preparing 3 weeks ago. So that's preseason testing with the team, getting to know the new car for the championship. What sort of characteristics the car has and how we can improve those. That'll be some more of a team's point of view. We'll analyze data together. It's an extremely data-driven sport nowadays, so we'll have a 45-minute session in the car and we'll be doing 45 to an hour of data analysis afterwards and video before then getting in the car again. That's only the driver's bit, and the engineers continue once they've got all that feedback.

And those will then continue to look at data, all looking for fine increments to make improvements because your competitors are in the same paddock, not spread all around the world. They're all in the same paddock, aren't they? And everyone's got the same timelines that they all have to abide by. So if you're not ready, you can't ring the organizers and say, can we just move it 10 minutes? No, sorry. If you're not ready, tough.

Yeah.

You know, and every, every team is up against those timelines. So it puts a lot of pressure on getting stuff done. And I think that's where motorsport's really good. It gets stuff done because it has to.

Yeah, I think, and, and that's, you know, it goes back to the individual side of that as well. You know, like for me personally, being overseas, no parents or anything to tell me I've got to be somewhere. And so I have to be very disciplined, um, and, you know, make sure that I'm doing my physical training know the car technically so I can understand what sort of is going on beneath me while on the track. And then David introduced me and I work with a mind coach, so that'll be clearing all the head noise, clearing all that chatter, and make sure you're at the track— when you're at the track, you're 100% on it and being exceptional. Um, so then you come in from the car, you can debrief well, and it all, it all sort of circulates. You need to be fit enough. If you're fit enough, you've got more mental capacity to think think about the car, then you can give better feedback to your engineer, then you can analyze better, and it all comes around again.

So what sort of, uh, just out of curiosity, when you say fit as a race car driver, what does that mean? And do you need to be at a certain weight?

If you're overweight, do the engineers then, oh shit, you've got to get more power? So engineers look at you as this squishy bit, unreliable variable in the middle, um, that, that, you know, you brake too late and they can't keep you consistent. So physically fit, I mean, we've got to— I do neck training and it's 25 kilos on your neck sideways when you're going through a corner.

Right.

I've got a VO2 max of like a high-end Olympic athlete. So you got to be able to have that endurance as well in the car, 'cause it's 25 to 30-minute races. And, you know, often test days, it's more time in the car. you never want to be at the point where you can say, oh, I just, I can't perform because I'm not physically fit enough.

Yeah.

So that'll be, you know, 6 days training a week. I work with a trainer who writes a program, and to be honest, probably haven't missed a day in about 2 years without like a genuine reason of travel or sickness or things like that. So, uh, yeah, it is quite full-on, but I'm over in the UK living it, and, and that's what I'm there to do. And I think it can be different for kids that live over in England, you know, because they've got their family and friends and maybe school. Whereas I go to a race weekend, do the race weekend, analyze after it, and then start preparing for the next one.

Yeah.

And so there's no, you know, there's always preparation. Yeah.

No distractions, no bad influences.

Not enough.

Well, you're looking for such fine margins, you know, you really are. So from a personal point of view, from a technical point of view, from a team point of view, it's a difference between winning and losing, you know. So the intensity in motorsport to deliver every time is quite high.

Mm-hmm.

So, and that's where, you know, a team has to work as a team. The individual has to get the best out of themselves. Best out of the team. Because, you know, when you're in that kind of environment and everybody's kind of on the same page, there's a bit of a buzz, there's a bit of confidence in the team, you know, then the kind of decisions they're going to be making in the future are going to be the right ones. But when it all starts to go a little bit south and the pressure's on and people aren't quite performing, the confidence drops within the unit of a team. you know, then the decisions, the way they perceive everything is going to change. The decisions that they're going to make are going to be not quite what they should be.

Yeah.

So this is why I say, got to look internally at the individual, but also the team, because when the— when everybody's on that up, everyone's got that confidence, everyone knows what they're doing, their jobs, role, responsibilities, and they're fully focused on the job at hand. Stuff happens. You start to make good progress and you start to get to the goals that you want to get to, but in that environment with that pressure, it can go south really quickly, really quickly.

And when it is, well, in that scenario, and this might be sort of hypothetical, but if Pat's in that scenario, what advice are you giving him? Are you telling him to intervene to try and turn it around, or is it just purely you've got to get the results on the track and that will then help the culture or the, the feel of the team?

Like, what, what—

Yeah, I guess it really depends, you know. It depends. Sometimes it's, um, it might be the driver that you need to pull aside and, you know, have a little bit of a chat to, you know, sort of rebuild the confidence or whatever, depending on what's happening in the environment. It could be a team environment that's affecting the driver, so you focus on obviously the driver, trying to help them change what's going on within the team as well, you know. So it's, it's quite complex in many ways, but it's kind of easy to see in a, in another way. You've been in—

for me, having been in it for as long as— So good at recognizing it.

I can pick that up really quickly because I realized in my career, I guess halfway through my career, It was all about me.

Yeah.

And then for the last half of my career, I realized it was about us.

Yeah.

So my— because in sports cars, you're not just driving by yourself, you're driving with a teammate or another teammate. So it might be 3 of you in the car. So the 3 of you got to work as a unit to, to get the best out of each other. And also from, you know, your team might be— your team's what, 20 people maybe on a weekend?

Yeah, 15, 20 people.

You know, when you get to Formula 1 level, you know, there's obviously it's over 1,000 people, but there's a, there's probably 50, 50-plus people that are at the racetrack that, that all have to be in sync with the goal and their jobs, roles, responsibilities, and, and working as a team as such, you know. So, um, certainly working in with younger drivers who obviously, I know what that's like, you've got a lot to learn and having someone on the side going, you kind of need to focus a bit over here 'cause this is not gonna get you where you wanna get to.

Yeah.

So, and that could be from a team environment too. It was like when we were working with your engineer, I could see where the direction was going. I was like, no, that's not gonna get to where you wanna get to. Let's have a rethink, get everyone together, put everything on the table. You need to have, start having conversations that you probably want to have a talk about, but you don't know how.

Yes.

You know what I mean?

I think so.

It's just clearing the air and making the environment kind of relaxing where there's no judgment. It's like you're putting everything down on the table. You're expressing— you expressed yourself about your frustrations. He expressed about his frustrations.

Great.

Let's, let's all talk about it. And the great thing for me was I was able to sort of bring that together and sort of go, okay, let's put it on the table. No one's going to judge anyone because we're all human beings at the end of the day. And so it's just a case of, right, okay, let's shift the energy in this camp because we need to do that because the way people make decisions in the future is based off that energy. So you've got to, you've got to raise that to get the better choices down the road.

And that's where David is so good at. Like, I could sense that we weren't communicating very well, but I didn't know what to do about it. And so David steps in and goes, look, just chat about it. Or, or the second round of the championship, wasn't in the best mindset, but I didn't really know that, but he recognized it from the outside. Um, well, I took a picture, remember?

I took, I took a picture of his— well, I took a picture of him when he first arrived into into New Zealand, there was a, there was a change from the year before. There was, there was a real, like, focus and attitude and confidence with Pat. And to be fair, he couldn't— he should have been on pole for the first race. He was, he was right there. And of course, there was a car issue in qualifying, so he couldn't, he couldn't maximize the situation. And then got caught out in traffic, got pushed out, and all of a sudden the results weren't there to the level. And you could sense this frustration Building in in Pat, yeah too. And by time we got to race two, I took another picture of him warming up and I showed him. I said, "Dude, can you see the difference between this Pat and this Pat?" And it was so obvious that he was overthinking everything. He was getting worried about stuff where when he turned up for the first race, he had that clarity. He had that walk about him. He just oozed confidence and it showed when he got in the car because like in the race, like—

Yeah, just mad.

I mean, he made more overtakes than anyone's ever done in that championship, you know, because he was on it. But race 2, he was starting to have doubts and bits because the results weren't quite there. Frustration was creeping in. The engineer was getting frustrated as well because he could see the results and they didn't quite know how to communicate together. So it was like, right, we need to, we need to, we need to— was race 3 then? It was like, right, let's, let's have a reset. Let's get everyone back on board again, you know, get everyone. And that's where it really then started to accelerate to the point of race. Well, I went away then, so I wasn't there, but I knew, I knew the scene was set for Pat to carry that on. I didn't have to do anything.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You know.

All right, well, this is a fantastic conversation and I can see that sort of playing out in corporate as well, where we're sort of creating this safe environment, people are feeling heard and we're coming at it with sort of a problem-solving approach. It's just so great to see that playing out in this scenario that you're just mentioning over in New Zealand. So we're sort of coming towards the end of the conversation here and I mean, I can see the obvious benefits of having you as a mentor, David, certainly if I'm striving to do something similar to you or following in your footsteps. And maybe just for the listeners listening in, if you could share, you know, it's obviously a two-way relationship and maybe some of the benefits you didn't expect from doing a mentor arrangement like this and sort of some of the Some of the things you take out of this, maybe it's an intrinsic or the rewarding elements that you find from actually being a mentor because you've got nothing else to prove, you've sort of, you know, the trophy cabinet's full whether it's the family or your own and maybe if you could share your perspective on what you get out personally around mentoring.

Yeah, I find it a very fulfilling experience to be fair. You know, when you When you're working with someone like, like Pat as a driver, and you're passing on that experience and helping them, and you're getting the feedback from that, and we have conversations, it's not a one-way street in terms of him just learning off me because I learn off him too. You know, we learn off each other as we go along because I don't think anyone can sit there and say they know everything. And when you start passing information across the table to somebody else, you're always going to get something back because you've opened the channel, because you've let it go. And something always comes back. It might be directly through Pat or it might come indirectly through another source. So you're constantly building and evolving yourself as a human being. Yeah. As well as just passing information on to, to, to a mentor, a mentee, you know what I mean? So for me, it is, it is incredibly rewarding, but it's also rewarding in a way that I also learn about myself. Always, you know, sometimes you get in a situation, you're passing advice on to someone. It's the same words you need to listen to yourself. Yeah, that can always happen as well. So it is very much a two-way street and I think that's where Things start to really build between a relationship that you're having with a mentoree and a mentor and yeah, you both grow together.

Yeah, and you can feel the sort of, you mentioned energy a couple of times, David. I think you guys have got a great open energy and you guys could probably say anything to each other in a safe way and a productive way. We're sort of coming to an end of the interview now, and maybe this is a chance just to answer your own question. Maybe I'll throw to you, Pat, is there any closing remarks or questions I didn't ask today or things you'd like to share?

I think we've covered it off pretty well. You know, I just hope that we— I've had quite a strong trajectory, well, a strong pathway to now, you know, from karts to the top level of UK motorsport and 5 years. And so hopefully we can just continue that path together. And Dave and I will be working together again this year. And hopefully—

or you will?

Hopefully.

Hopefully.

Oh, I will.

I will.

Okay.

So he's always there. Um, words are so powerful though. No, seriously. It tells you how they think and how they think is going to come, what's going to come.

Yeah, yeah.

Change the world.

That was like our first conversation. Yeah, um, so we'll be on this trajectory, uh, from, from here on to get to Formula 1. But great. Yeah, well, thank you very much for having us on.

Rooting from the sidelines, that's for sure. And, um, no pressure, but, uh, what's this? That was a public claim, F3 next year.

And yeah, well, I mean, it goes with that backing. I hope so.

Yeah.

Okay, so there's a call out to our membership base there. And maybe, Dave, same question for you, uh, answer your own question or a closing remarks from the conversation?

As Pat said, I think we, we've covered quite a lot. Um, and you know, I think this year for me, seeing Pat the way he's developed over the last 12 months, and for me it's kind of laying the foundations down, because you lay them down properly, you have a long career. Uh, whether he makes Formula 1, we'll have to see. You know, a lot will come down to the backing and it'll come down to opportunity, but if Pat just focuses on the process, things can happen. And if it's another direction, it's another direction. But, you know, if you lay those foundations down properly, then you'll, you'll have sustainability in your, in your career. So, yeah, this year he's absolutely now ready to, to fight for a championship, and it's going to be exciting to, to watch, watch him progress through that.

Great. Well, we'll put a link to all the social hooks there and your website up on The Mentalist And for those that want to get involved and even support Pat or follow his journey, we'll make that extremely easy for you to click and connect in that way. But I'd like to thank you both for your time and just the open, honest conversation. As I said, I really enjoyed the energy and I've got you on the eve of the, or not the eve, the Grand Prix starts today in Melbourne.

Yeah.

So no doubt you'll be heading off there very soon, but it's great to catch you in this moment. And look forward to introducing you to our members tomorrow at our Grand Prix event here in Melbourne. So thank you both, David and Pat.

No, thank you, David.

Thanks for having us. It's a great chat. Thank you.

Legends.