Uncover Neurodiversity: Empowering Hidden Strengths in Society and the Workplace w. Dr. Shae Wissell

If you're neurodivergent, you know the strengths that you bring, especially in C-suite and executive level.

Yeah.

But I think it's how do you bring those strengths out within your teams, ensuring that they're supported as well. And I think what we're struggling to see, particularly in the dyslexic community, is leaders in organizations coming forward and saying, I am dyslexic. We're really struggling to have high-profile people that feel okay to talk about it and then to help and mentor others. So, but also that the work we do can really support your staff around how they can work to their best through the tools and strategies that we have as well. Yeah.

Shay Wissell, welcome to The Mentor List.

Thank you. Thanks so much for inviting me on.

Well, it's great to have you in the studio, and this is a topic that's, uh, very close to my heart and research. Um, we're going to be going deep into neurodiversity in leadership. Um, we're going to sort of COVID you know, a whole range of topics, including, you know, you've written the book, which is not a Neurodivergent-friendly name, Insights into Hidden Disability in and Out of the Workplace. Sorry, Dyslexia: Insights into Hidden Disability in and Out of the Workplace. So looking forward to touching on some of the, um, the uncoverings in that. But maybe if we just start with a very simple question, and excuse my naiveness if that's even a word, but neurodiversity, can you define kind of what that is, neurodiversity and dyslexia?

So neurodiversity was actually a term coined by a researcher called Judy Singer, I think in the '80s or '90s, and she was studying intergenerational autism within her family and the women within her family. And so she coined the term neurodiversity talking about how in the environment we need biodiversity, and so the same within the human race, we need a variety of different ways of thinking to enable us to thrive and to see autism as a positive way of being, thinking differently and doing things differently rather than the negative connotations that autism can have. And then I think over the last, particularly in the last 5 years, we've seen this cultural movement of neurodiversity being talked about. And now what we say is those that have autism or ADHD or dyslexia or other neurodevelopmental differences are actually neurodivergent because we've diverged off the neurodiversity path. So—

Got it, non-typical.

It's complicated but not complicated. So in that sense, everybody's neurodiverse because we're all different thinkers, but those that have neurodevelopmental differences like dyslexia And not the same as someone that's neurotypical.

Right. So is it becoming more prevalent or are we becoming more aware or what's happening? Is it, are we getting more diverse, neurodiverse or are we like, what's happening? What are you seeing in your research?

Well, it's interesting 'cause your lift just said 1 in 20 people are now diagnosed with ADHD, which was interesting coming up. It's like, oh, that's an interesting topic while we're talking about this today. I think part of the reason—

That's diagnosed, so how many—

Yes, that is diagnosed.

Sorry, keep going.

We'll get to that. We saw a lot of boys in particular when they were younger being diagnosed, but what we're tending to see now is women being diagnosed in adulthood, and that's across all the different neurodivergences. And I think partly because as girls we're good at masking, or we tend to be good girls and we fly under the radar. So I went to a Catholic school, I was very well behaved, I hated getting into trouble, I was very fearful of getting into trouble.

Hmm.

And so I always made sure I did all my homework even though I'm very disorganized outside of school and work. And my mum was a schoolteacher, so she made sure we kind of had that routine. So girls are really good at covering up our differences, but as we get into adulthood, particularly if we have children, We might see those differences in our children and we start to think, okay, that could be me, 'cause it's highly genetic. They're all highly genetic. And also that we might've had really good strategies to manage, but then once we've had children or we've got married or we've progressed in our careers, sometimes those strategies don't work as well anymore.

Yeah.

And so what we find is we start to struggle and then we start to investigate why are we struggling. And it could have been that in the past we might've had a lot of anxiety or depression. Sometimes people get labeled bipolar. Um, and so people start investigating. That's why we're seeing particularly women being assessed and diagnosed more now. So whether it was always there and we just, we've improved our way of diagnosing, I think is partly that. Um, and that, yeah, it's been talked about a lot more. That was a long-winded answer to your question.

No, it's very, very interesting. I have many, many questions and just when you're talking now, I'm thinking, well, does like attract like? So if I'm, So I'm ADHD off the charts, if you haven't picked that up. Now my wife is sort of where we're undecided whether she has it or not, or, you know, where on the spectrum she sort of sits. And we'll come back to spectrum 'cause I know I'm using that incorrectly there. But do we attract to each other and therefore have kids that have higher proportions of ADHD? 'Cause it is a genetic, or all these things, sorry, I've got so many questions.

That's all right, we'll do a 2-part podcast. That's what I tend to find in my other podcasts I'm glad we're not having 2 parts 'cause we talk too much about one thing. And yeah, yes, it is highly genetic. Like in my family, it's my dad and I'm pretty sure he's dyslexic. He's definitely dyslexic, but he shows strong traits of autism and ADHD.

So what, so your dad would be in a different age bracket, probably 50 to 70. That is a low diagnosed cohort.

It would be, yes.

So how do you know when you say, oh yeah, he's got, He's dyslexic, but this is you as an expert. What traits are you seeing that, you know, we could see in others to say, ah, that person's got dyslexia or?

Well, for my dad, he doesn't read, so he can't fill in forms.

Right.

Partly he didn't finish school, so he left and went and did a trade very young, but also he struggles to read. My mum always helped him. My mum, since she's passed away, We have to help my dad if there's a lot of reading or computer, digital literacy, things like that we have to support him with and his finances. So that was probably an indicator. He's highly creative in his ability to, he could build anything. He's building a car at the moment, but he just couldn't manage day-to-day activities.

Yeah.

And also as we've expanded more into ADHD and autism through our work and through ourselves and understanding more, a lot of my dad's social cues aren't there. He can't follow social cues. He has to stick to one topic. He gets highly fixated. He's highly routine. So if he's out of routine for a few days, he doesn't seem to cope.

Wow.

So lots of different indicators that he's quite neurodivergent. And one of my brothers is dyslexic. He was diagnosed. And now that we've learned more about autism, we can see some traits in him, not that he'd want me to say that, but like he loves everything white.

Right.

He's always had lines of white runners. He's very routine, he's never late. He's always early.

'Cause isn't late a—

ADHD kind of tendency.

Yes, time blindness.

Yes, yes, but for him, he's very much early. He's never late for anything. So there's lots of different traits that we see in our family. And some of my nephews also have been diagnosed with dyslexia. So it's quite strong genetically. But going back to your point about like and like, I think the research tells us that particularly dyslexics, we tend to associate with people that can help us. So like my dad married my mum who supported him. And so it seems to be that a neurotypical, which my husband hates that term, but people that aren't neurodivergent, can either go to someone that can kind of support them with those things. And that's what the research has said with dyslexia. But my friendship group, As I got diagnosed and as they've gotten older, a lot of my female friends have recently been diagnosed with ADHD and dyslexia. So I tended to have a cohort of friends that were quite neurodivergent. And my husband always says, do you just attract, attract these people into your life? And maybe we do to a certain point.

Yeah.

Whether it's, you know, trying to find your own tribe really, which is really important when you feel different.

Yeah, so we've got a fantastic tribe or membership base here of entrepreneurs and CEOs, and I'd be interested, you know, from your perspective, um, and we've had, uh, some of our guest mentors openly speak about, you know, how they've got ADHD and they, they see it as their superpower, and they also have their, um, methods for dealing with some of the challenges with, with that. And I, I heard it, um, One of our mentors, Adam Bennett, who runs one of our Sydney C-suite groups, he sort of said, oh, Dave, you're telling him about my issues and I'm spilling the beans with him. He said, the cost of focus is peripheral vision. And I thought that was like such a nice summary. But maybe, sorry, it's a long-winded question, but is it a higher percentage of, you know, non-neurotypicals or neurodivergent individuals in these senior roles? Or is that sort of the exception rather than the norm? What are you sort of seeing in the research? Yeah.

Well, the research tells us there's a high percentage of entrepreneurs that are dyslexic, ADHD, and autistic as well. We're seeing— and there's a lot of high-profile people like Einstein, Steve Jobs. Sorry, his name is out of my head. So there's multiple high-profile individuals that we've seen that have some type of neurodivergence.

Yep.

And I think in executive and C-suite roles, especially if they've created their own business, then there's a high chance that they could be neurodivergent, whether they've been assessed or not or had access to that because it's quite expensive when they were younger is a different story, which is what comes back to that cohort of undiagnosed people that we work with. But yes, we tend to see a big cohort.

Yeah, and I mean, talking about diagnosed, undiagnosed, I imagine this is a, there's a range of, you know, everyone has flavors of both non-divergent and neurotypical. But from your perspective, you know, I found out about ADHD through my daughter because we were doing an assessment and we're trying to work out her learning styles and how she can, you know, do better in the way she applies herself at school. And then we're in talking to an expert and she's sort of going through the process and I could look back on it now, it's very obvious what she's doing. She's like, have you had a test Uh, David. And I'm like, no, no, I haven't had a test. This is about Ava, my daughter. We're gonna, you know, we're gonna go down this road. I think she's got ADHD, so we're gonna go. And she's like, okay, it might be worth, you know, just for, um, information's sake. And anyway, I ended up doing it, and it was obviously, um, there. And but they're all along. And so I've created all these coping mechanisms and things to be able to get by. But from your perspective, do you think it's better to have a diagnosis Or not, to not know and just work it out, or like, what's your view on that?

I'm caught up that your daughter's name's Ava because so is my daughter.

Oh, there you go, very popular at the moment.

Watching her dancing the other day, I'm like, I'm sure she's got ADHD. She just would not sit still and all the other girls were sitting still. I don't wanna diagnose her because, you know, labels, we've just released a paper actually on labels, but I think Labels are really important. And I think a diagnosis is important so that you can understand for yourself. And I think because we have these labels put on us, particularly in childhood for kind of our generation where we were dumb, stupid, lazy, you know, careless. Why haven't you proofread your work? Surely you've— why couldn't you see that that was the— I said, my brother, I was helping him with his writing. I put dear dairy throughout his whole essay and it was supposed to be dear diary.

Right.

So it's like, we're constantly told we're doing things wrong. And if we don't get a diagnosis, then all of those negative terms are internalized, and that can come up in many different ways— through post-traumatic stress syndrome as adults, through depression, anxiety. We see higher rates of attempted suicide as well, so significant mental health problems. And part of that can be because we've internalized this self-concept that we're not good enough. So when we get a diagnosis, we can actually say, it's not me. In that sense that I'm not dumb, I'm not stupid, I'm not lazy, because we're trying really hard. We actually work a lot harder than people that aren't neurodivergent to manage in life, whether it's remembering our keys or, you know, being able to do a 9-to-5 job, which isn't the best structure for us. And we have to put in a lot more energy to make sure we can sit and finish that task or start that task or read that document or have it proofread before it goes to the board. So there's lots of things we're doing that other people don't don't have to do. And so I think having a diagnosis enables us to see that it's not us, it's a difference that we have, and that there are tools to manage it now. And I'm not dumb, I'm not stupid, all those labels that can be attached to you as you progress into adulthood, and we still see in adulthood.

And you mentioned sort of 9-to-5 work, so we're sort of getting into the workplace. I mean, is the current workplace sort of set up to you know, get the best out of, you know, neurodivergent individuals? Or are there, you know, is there practical things we could do to maybe identify it within a team and make it a more inclusive sort of working style and arrangement and physical location?

Yes, I think that the 9 to 5 is, is good for someone who really likes routine. That can be really helpful having that kind of structure. I know for me as a dyslexic, most likely ADHD and 9 to 5 does not work for me. I normally start early and finish early, partly so I can get my daughter, but I also tend to work before my daughter. I would work really late as well 'cause I could—

Right.

I knew that that was a good time for me. So I think since COVID this ability to work from home has, I think, enabled us to thrive in an environment where we've got that flexibility to start early, to finish early if we need to, or vice versa, to have those breaks where it's okay if you, you know, you're standing up to do a meeting. Like I've got a standup desk so no one can see me fidgeting or I've got a treadmill. So sometimes I might walk in meetings, like all those things that can help you with your movement and your concentration. All of us struggle with background noise that's neurodivergent. Like that's a big issue and that sensory overload, bright lights. So when I'm at home working, I don't have lights on in my office. It's quite dark because I just have the natural light coming in. I, for me, I think the only challenge working from home is that I hyperfocus. So sometimes I might realize I haven't got up from my desk for 4 hours.

Right.

And then I'm like, right, I haven't had a glass of water in 4 hours. I've only had a coffee. So that can be a challenge. But being able to work from home, I think, enables us to be really productive in a way that we haven't been before. And ideally, if I didn't have my daughter, I would have a nap as well. I'm really good at napper. That's how like my brain has it made.

European circadian rhythm, I think.

And I still try now on the weekend, but I think that's been really helpful working from home. And I think, you know, as we progress in our careers, that type of structure where it's a little bit less unstructured, I think as we get into leadership and executive roles where I think that helps us thrive as well.

Yeah.

For some neurodivergents, for those that are autistic, you know, that process and that routine is, So working from home is good for neurodivergent? For some, yes, and I think particularly for autistic people if they're struggling with their social skills, so working from home can be really helpful for them. We find that though with dyslexics because we've got email, you might have Teams running, you might have Slack running, trying to keep up with those 3 different channels can be really hard and keeping up with the threads of written content can be difficult. So I think hybrid models are really good where you've got that mix where people can come in, still socialize, still get that brainstorming and ideas, but you've got that ability to kind of work the way that you work best.

So if you had to stereotype, which is always a dangerous thing, but you've got 2 individuals, one's got 12,000 unread emails, 50 unread texts, one's got You know, 20 emails and a couple of unread texts. Where's the non-divergent typically sitting? Is that even a good question or is that just—

Well, I mean, my husband is neurotypical and he has sometimes 2,000 emails. All right.

Okay.

So I think it depends on workload where for me, I hate the red dot. I cannot go to sleep with the red dot on the phone on an email.

I have to check everything off. Oh, the notification, right.

Yeah, I don't.

Yeah.

cope with those notifications. But I think if you've got the 1,500 emails, it's, and like I say to my husband, who's not neurodivergent, like what is your work structure? How have you broken up your day so that you've got time to work and time to have your meetings and time to do that admin? 'Cause we all have admin in our job. And so that can be hard to balance all of that. And it's looking at how we can structure things. But I think coming back to your question around strengths, if we're working from a strength-based approach for our whole team, not just the neurodivergence, it's like understanding where everyone's strengths are. So then we're working at a high performance rather than this person can't do that, they're being lazy, they're not pulling their weight.

Yeah.

I think if we know that one person in the team is really good at writing, then what's wrong with them doing that bit if someone else is really good at strategic thinking and problem solving? So trying to understand your team makeup is really important. So that then everyone's enjoying their job role because they're doing the things that they enjoy and that they love and that they're good at.

So you mentioned before, up in the lift, coming up in the lift, there was an article on the screen said sort of 1 in 20 benefit from ADHD or diagnosed with ADHD. And what is the real stat? And then knowing that, If you've got a team of 5 or 10, how do you identify the traits? And then how would you sort of support that in a way that's beneficial for the whole team, if that's possible?

Well, if we think of a workplace with say 100, 'cause that's easy for me to do the maths on.

Yep.

Around 10 would be dyslexic.

Okay.

Around 5 to 8 would have ADHD and then 1 to 2 might have autism. Which is surprising because we probably talk about autism the most in the workplace. And we see, if you're looking on social media, there's a lot of conversation about autism and we've just seen the National Autism Strategy come out. So—

Is that because it's the most obvious one when you meet someone to identify or to see?

Yeah, possibly. And I think that for some people with autism, it can be significant where they need a lot of support. And I don't know whether for someone that's dyslexic, you know, functional reading skills is significant if you can't read, but people can't see that. And so I think sometimes it's the—

Mm-hmm.

There's hidden traits that make it hard as well to understand what's going on for somebody. When I do presentations, I have a photo of my family and my uncle's significantly intellectually disabled and he's partially blind as well. So you can see that he's got a disability, But in our photo, my mum's terminally ill with cancer, we've got some others with chronic disease, and then we've got our neurodivergent cohort. And you really can't see that, and I think that sometimes as well, because the difficulties are so hidden. And I don't know whether it's just the autistic community have had a— they've been really good at self-advocating, and they've really come together well to get that support, and possibly other neurodivergent conditions, we're still learning how to do that right now.

Yeah. Yeah, right. And when you say those numbers, so 1 in 10 dyslexic, 8 in— or almost 1 in 10 ADHD, and then what's that, 2 in 100, 1 in every 50 has autism within the workplace. Is this diagnosed or is this just the underlying statistics?

This is a diagnosed statistic.

Okay.

So we don't know who's sitting there undiagnosed. And, um, I'll send you a little picture for our show notes. So we have One person that is open and happy to talk about their neurodivergence in the workplace, and they might not wanna be the poster person, but they're happy to say they've got dyslexia or autism. Then you've got the people that are masking that are too scared to come out in the workplace because of fear of stigma.

Yeah.

And then you've got that cohort that know that they're working harder or they don't get things done on time like others, or there's something different about them, but they haven't had that opportunity. And so when we think of the workplace, it's— we've got a variety of people coming in at all different levels with all different skills, different things happening for them at home. And so I think if we're able to treat— know that everyone's coming with something, you know, we have to learn on the job. We don't come with that full skill set, as an example. And I think it's just asking. We've got a really good video around how to talk about, you know, when do I work best? and when do I need help? And it's a really good team one to do to really understand the different dynamics without people having to say, I'm autistic, or, you know, I'm a single mum and I have to leave early to get my child. Like, we don't have to disclose all that personal information then because we're just asking people—

Yeah.

What makes you work at your best? And then what are things that you might need support with? And for a single mum, it might be, You know, I need to leave by 3.

Yep.

But I don't need to disclose that. I just say I work best from 7:30 till 3 o'clock. And so it's really getting to understand your employees rather than their areas of weakness or their areas that they need extra support with because they're neurodivergent. Does that make sense?

It does, yeah. And you've sort of touched on something, you know, some people aren't open to talking about that and maybe we can sort of You mentioned labels being important before and having that awareness, you know, at an individual level. And I see it, you know, my daughter's in grade 4 at the moment and they're so open and transparent around different learning styles. It's just, you know, and that will flow into the future workspace. But maybe we can talk about sort of some of the stigmatism, what's happening from a, you know, a broad overview with awareness of these different neurostyles?

I think, well, for me, the reason I started this work was because there was such a significant lack of awareness and understanding of dyslexia. And I have dyslexia and dysgraphia.

Sorry, what's dysgraphia?

So dysgraphia is a writing difficulty. And so for me, my dysgraphia actually impairs me a lot more than my dyslexia. So dyslexia is around reading and spelling and grammar, where dysgraphia is putting sentences together properly. So like tenses correctly. I tend to write from the middle out. So I don't always put the context, or I don't put the introduction or the conclusion. So it's just kind of the middle piece. So for me, like writing an email, I tend to not do the niceties. I just get to the point. And so people find that really rude.

That's fair.

And I've been given a lot of feedback, same with my texting, you know, where— and Even my brother's like, why can't you just say, how are you? I'm like, yeah, but you already know that.

Like, so— Straight into the business. Let's just get it done.

Yes. And that works really well for some people. I find working with male colleagues, that's actually, that works really well. And I can just be that direct. But for other colleagues, it's putting the beginning and end that's really important. And again, it's how we work differently. So my dysgraphia means that I've always had to have people proofread and edit my writing for me. AI now has, Oh, that would be genius. Very independent.

That would supercharge your ability to be direct and it would add all the fluff around it.

Yes, it does. Gobelin Tool is my go-to for everything now. But before it was my mum. So she helped me with all my writing throughout secondary school and through university. And then when I went to do my doctorate, she handed it over to my auntie and said, I can't help you anymore. She's already— she already did 3 degrees with me. But for me, as I was going through my career, I kept, hitting roadblocks because of my writing and my dyslexia. And every time I disclosed in the workplace, people just really didn't understand. And so I was offered a lower salary that had been advertised because I said I needed some help in my writing during an interview. And so I had to wait for 6 months till they gave me the actual advertised salary because they wanted to see how much support Right.

Oh my gosh.

I've been told by another manager that they needed a few stiff drinks before they read any of my work. And this is disclosing that I've got this difficulty. So I kept being told I was different or I wasn't doing my job properly, or that I wasn't at the expected standard in a manager or senior role because of my writing. And, and it was really because of that lack of awareness and understanding of dyslexia and dysgraphia and neurodivergences that led me to do this work because it's still like no one knows that 1 in 10 are dyslexic and yet it's our highest prevalence in our community.

And just on that sort of stat, because I'm talking about sort of pairings of neurodivergence, so when we say 100, 10 are dyslexic, around 10 have ADHD, are they They're not necessarily different people though, are they? Or there could be a pairing because it's, they come in pairs, don't they?

Yeah, so it's highly, it's very rare that someone only has one. That's just maybe they haven't had the opportunity to be assessed for more than one because assessing is expensive. But no, they're just the standalones. So I don't know what the stats would be. So if you think of that cohort of those 10 dyslexics, they might already have ADHD, they may have ADHD, but they haven't been assessed for it.

Yeah.

So the stats at the moment aren't telling us, okay, so what are the prevalence rates of people with multiple differences?

Yep.

Um, and that's, uh, something that would be really interesting to look at because we know that they correlate so highly.

And so if, if an individual's sort of listening in and they're sort of resonating around sort of neurodivergence and, um, maybe sort of thinking, well, you know, that probably sounds a little bit like me, um, What sort of, um, what, what sort of activities and tools and frameworks do you see undiagnosed ADHD or dyslexic individuals working with to make them, you know, super effective? Because there are a lot of high-performing neurodivergent individuals out there. What sort of, what have you sort of picked up along the way that you think, oh yeah, that was quite clever because that plays into a You know, a potential weakness or I don't know.

I think if you, once you get into that higher levels of a workplace, an EA really helps.

Right.

Really helps. And, but then the challenge is being able to give the direct right directions to the EA to be able to do the stuff that you need help with. I think also, you know, you'll see people in those areas working long hours to keep up with the work as well because it's a high-pressure role that they're in and there is a lot of work. Reading tools, so you might see people, and this is what we work with a lot of the times, the executives we work with, they may not have known what the tools are anymore because they've had all these strategies in place where they've had an EA or they've had a colleague proofread things, or, um, there's been a support team around them.

Yeah.

And sometimes you don't know that you've created a support team. Like when I used to go into jobs, I made sure I knew I was friends with the IT person because they could help me, and then, um, someone in administration that could check things for me, and then usually someone in the team as well that I could ask, could you just read this quickly.

Yeah.

So I think we build little teams around us intentionally or unintentionally that can help in managing the things that we're not as good at. And then really fixating or being strong in those areas that you need in leadership to kind of help you manage it all out. But there's lots of tools now that, particularly with AI, that help where we just, you know, a need for an EA's Not as strong maybe now because there's things we can do independently. Yep.

Oh, fantastic. Well, thank you for sharing that. So we're going to move now. Maybe before I do, was there any questions that, you know, you were thinking on your way in? I hope Dave asked me that because that's an area I'd like to sort of explore just before we move into the short answer questions and start talking about your recent book you've published. But was there a question? Maybe this is a choose your own adventure. I mean, I got excited and asked you a lot of questions in a short amount of time, but Is there an area you'd like to sort of share?

I think having neurodivergent, whether you're neurodivergent, if you're neurodivergent, you know the strengths that you bring, especially in C-suite and executive level. But I think it's how do you bring those strengths out within your teams and ensuring that they're supported as well. And I think what we're struggling to see, particularly in the dyslexic community, is leaders in organizations coming forward and saying, I am dyslexic. We're really struggling to have high-profile people that feel okay to talk about it and then to help and mentor others. So I think if you're someone listening and you are in that space and you do feel comfortable, please come out because we need, we need your voice. But also that the work we do can really support your staff around how they can work to their best through the tools and strategies that we have as well.

And again, the— well, typically stereotyping now, the leaders in C-suite and exec roles at the moment are a certain age bracket and not necessarily a big diagnosis cohort. So it could be a really— and let's say there was a bit of a thought about, ah, Maybe I do have, I don't know, one of those things. How would you go about exploring that further? Is it a Dr. Google thing or do you go through your GP or what would you sort of, what's a good path to just, I don't know, find out some more?

Oh, well, come to us and we'll just help you work through the path. I think it depends. We provide dyslexia screening, which a lot of people are coming through. We've got a high proportion of women coming through at the moment and that gives you a lot likelihood of dyslexia and we also look at your family history and that's done with a clinical psych. If it's ADHD, probably your GP because you do need to have, if you'd like to try medication then you need to see a psychiatrist and that is a bit of a wait time. But you can start the journey with the psychologist, they also do part of the assessing as we were talking about before. And for autism I think going to your GP because generally You need a couple of different specialists to help with diagnosing that. So your GP is a good starting point, and then there's ADHD Australia, there's a lot of different autism organizations that people can Google that might help as well.

Okay, fantastic. Thanks for sharing. We'll try and put some links up in the show notes as well for those that are curious to learn some more. And maybe just a final question, we'll move on to sort of some of the short questions, but maybe what's the future of neurodiversity? You know, where are we heading?

Oh wow, that's an interesting question considering what's happening overseas at the moment. But I think I started this work probably 8 or 9 years ago, and the shift has been since COVID Like, the conversations we're having now didn't exist 8 years ago when I started. So I think There's never been a better time, I feel, to be neurodivergent, partly because of the tools that are now available to help us succeed, but also the conversations are being had, whether it's with DEI teams or people and culture or leadership. We're now having these conversations and seeing the benefits of thinking differently in a workplace and knowing how that can increase profits and increase high productivity. And so I hope that, uh, one day I can just go and do research and I don't have to do this work because organizations are well set up to support everyone.

Yeah.

And, and tools are accessible for everyone to work to the best of their ability.

And when you say the shift has been since COVID is this that the conversation is more around a sort of mental being and wellness? Is that kind of the shift that now is making it okay to talk about these things, or—

I'm not sure what I've just, whether it, I've seen there's a huge push on social media. I think also the Senate inquiry into ADHD has helped, the autism strategy has helped. So there's been some political changes and whether that's because politicians themselves have seen their children get diagnosed and so they wanna see change. I mean, in South Australia they have an autism minister.

Right.

So I think also that advocacy has become very, strong in these, with these different conditions as well. And I'm not sure, but it's great. It's really exciting to see after all this time that these conversations are starting to be had, but I'd like to see more dyslexics at the table.

Right, okay. Well, never been a better time, so that's quite a call out. So, oh, fantastic. Well, thank you for Yeah, being so generous with all of your experience and hard work and research and the work that you do. Maybe we'll just switch to 3 short questions. One's, is there a quote that you'd like to share with the listeners?

A quote? Now I'd have to go into my book. There's one from Maya Angelou that we always share in our presentations, and I'm not going to get it right, so sorry, but it's around people won't remember what you did or who you are, but they'll always remember how you made them feel. And I think that's really important in the workplace because you'll always remember how someone makes you feel, or in school or in society. And we want to make sure that people leave our workplaces feeling good about themselves and what they're doing.

Very nice. That's the same quote as our chairman, Mike Smith. Oh, there you go.

So he'll be able to tell me I've got some words mixed up in there.

No, no. Well, that's, uh, I think the general gist is that his other one is, um, yeah, everyone's got a plan until you get punched in the face. Um, all right, next question. So what advice would you give to your younger self or your younger non-diagnosed self or non-enlightened self?

Yeah, I wasn't diagnosed till I was 27. So I think, um, I would tell my younger self to be more confident. And that, you know, if someone had said to me at 27 after I had my mental health breakdown, after I was diagnosed, that, you know, in 20 years' time you've got— you would have written a book, you would have done your doctorate, you've seen successes that you would have never imagined. Sitting in that hospital bed, I would not have believed it. So I think for me, for my younger self, it would have been building that self-worth and that self-confidence. Because I didn't know, I just knew that I was different and I knew I just couldn't do things like everyone else. So it comes back to, you know, that opportunity of being diagnosed young so we can build that self-confidence and that self-worth.

Yep. Well, speaking of confidence and self-worth, the next question is your favorite, if you could share a favorite book, which obviously would be the one you wrote. 'Cause I can imagine the time and energy and passion and focus that that would have taken. So maybe just share a bit more about your book, about maybe if there's particular insights that you could draw out for us. I know we're getting the short form of it, but yeah, it'd be great to find out a bit more.

Well, someone with a reading difficulty, I actually do love to read, and I now listen to a lot of audiobooks. But yes, I think my book, Dyslexia: Insights into the Hidden Disability in and Out of the Workplace, is a big mouthful, and it's really because originally the research was based on looking at workplace experiences for the first time in Australia, and adults and what they were going through in the workplace. But over the period of time that we did the research, we were able to unpack so much more about mental health, about childhood experiences, about educational trauma, areas that we'd never spoken about in Australia before from a research perspective. And so that's why the title ended up being so long because we couldn't— for my thesis I could only talk about the workplace, but for the book we wanted to talk about the journey into adulthood. And so the first part is really that journey. What do labels mean? What does the term superpower mean? Should we use it? And then into the workplace across the whole employment life cycle that there are challenges for people with dyslexia that we didn't know about before. And I was really fixated on retention because that's the challenges I'd had in staying in a job.

Yeah.

But what we found was there's significant barriers being put up across that whole employment life cycle, and then there's strategies and tools in there to help.

Okay.

Which, you know, for me is exciting because it's something that's never been written before. It's not anything we've seen in Australia before, and it really does start to highlight that there's other neurodivergent conditions that we need to be looking at in the workplace, not just autism and not just ADHD, because they're the ones that are— I don't want to say flavor of the month, but they're the ones that are spoken about the most at the moment.

Yeah. Oh, thank you, Shay. And we'll put a link to— yeah, if you want to go through and get a copy of your book, and you can purchase that online. Okay, we're about to move into the rapid fire, which is 60 seconds of as many questions I can ask you as quickly as possible. Get into your psyche.

Oh, actually stop watching. Wow.

Yeah, this is like very serious. Um, okay, uh, okay, neuro— oh, these are big words. Neurodivergent leadership or traditional leadership?

Neurodivergent leadership.

Not sure what that is.

Do I have to say the whole sentence?

Uh, just one of the options.

Option 1.

Yep, okay. Uh, structured workplace or flexible environment?

Option 2, definitely.

Diagnosis or non-diagnosis?

Diagnosis, if you can afford it, is really important, but we know there's barriers to that.

Creative problem solver or analytical thinking?

I have to go with my personal preference of creative problem solver.

You're putting— laying context on this, I love it. Empathetic coaching or traditional training?

Empathetic coaching.

Inclusive policies or standard practices?

There's no— definitely option one.

Yeah. Offer support systems or independent strategies?

Uh, both.

Early intervention or late identification?

Early intervention for sure.

Celebrating differences or conforming to norms?

Celebrating differences.

Oh, these questions are really loaded.

That's part of our values. Has someone been looking at our values? Yes.

Neurodiversity awareness is in business or still under the radar?

I think it's still under the radar for a lot of people.

Entrepreneurial mindset or corporate career?

Entrepreneurial mindset for sure.

Strength-based leadership or skills-based leadership?

Strength-based.

Workplace accommodation or self— accommodations or self-advocacy?

Both.

Open plan or offices?

Oh, an office for me, but open plan for everyone else that likes it.

Audiobook or physical book?

Depends how you like to learn. I like both.

That's a tough one because you got to say physical book because that's what's out there in the market for you.

Well, we have gone to ebook on Kindle and we're supposed to be on Amazon at any minute. And I am doing Audible, but I have to use my own voice, I've been told. So it's going to take a bit of time to do.

Cool. Oh, good. Well, it's good to get some practice on the mic today for that. Well, thank you for your time today. And thank you for Yeah, going into a topic which is obviously, you know, a sensitive topic for, for some individuals, and I hope sort of the listeners can, um, can listen to this. I, I, as I, as I mentioned, I've got ADHD and probably a couple of the other things, as we mentioned, there's a bit of pairing, undiagnosed. Um, so my questions are, you know, coming from a place of innocence. So if you're sort of listening in, I hope that you've enjoyed today's conversation. Maybe there's some practical things that you can take away. from that. But, um, Shae will put some notes around how people can get in contact with you, how can they get a copy of your book. But yeah, thanks. Did you have any closing remarks to finish us off?

I know, I think those last 60-second questions really gave an insight into what we should be doing in the workplace. So thank you for the opportunity, it's been great.

Thank you.