Empowering Entrepreneurs: Ana Marinkovic on Cultivating Success in the Small Business Ecosystem

At NAB, we are fortunate enough to be looking after the financial needs of some 1.1 million of those businesses.

Right, yeah.

What I think is at the heart of being a small business owner, an entrepreneur, I don't think it has changed in decades, and that's the passion and enormous hard work. In a role like mine, there is no work-life balance ever. There is nothing that people dislike more than that inauthenticity of saying one thing and doing another.

Are there any other sort of traits or lessons that you'd like to highlight as in terms of being successful in life?

A couple of things I'd say. One is— Hi, welcome to the Mentor List podcast.

Today we're talking to Anna Marinčević. She's the EGM of Small Business Banking at NAB. Anna's going to talk to us today about entrepreneurship in Australia and also discuss more of her frameworks for success, whether you're an entrepreneur yourself or you're on the corporate ladder. Thanks for tuning in, and I hope you enjoy the episode.

Okay, Anna Marinčević, welcome to The Mentor List.

Thank you very much for having me. It's an absolute pleasure.

And it's great to have you on for a second time. I know we've had Richard Elstone interview you first.

That was a while back, wasn't it?

It was a while back. So yeah, great to check back in. Last theme was around sort of diversity matters, and we might sort of head into that today as well. But congratulations. I know NAB has just been voted the best small business bank by the Digital Banker.

Yes.

And that's obviously the part of the portfolio that you are running. So obviously you're doing something right with your team and your services there. Anne, I guess my first question's really around small business in Australia. Is it really small? How big is it? Can we get a bit of context around what is that as a collective?

There are about 2.8 million small businesses across the country. They employ about half of our workforce, and at NAB, we are fortunate enough to be looking after the financial needs of some 1.1 million of those businesses, with bankers that are located in some 500 locations, both in our metro, regional, as well as rural areas of Australia. There are about 5 million Australians that also earn their living by working in a small business. And as I often say, small businesses are the lifeblood of our local communities.

Yes.

They are on the high street. They are the ones that provide the colour and the sentiment to the local communities. And it is incredibly important. for Australians to continue to support, um, yeah, their, uh, the local entrepreneurs, to continue to buy local and ensure that we continue to support the entrepreneurial spirit that, um, and the courage that it takes to open up a small business.

Because I think the word, and be interesting to get your perspective on the The sort of definition of entrepreneur, um, and maybe how that's changed over generation from sort of immigration and setup of small businesses, and now it seems to be in hyper mode, and it's really— is it fashionable? Or I'm not sure what the word is, but how have you seen— is that changing, or is that just me changing my—

Look, as I, as I, I spend a lot of my time on the ground, visiting businesses all across the country. And I always am so amazed by the courage and the tenacity that I see. So people have an idea, people are incredibly passionate about that idea, and they will test and learn and fail multiple times in order to realize the dream that they might have. And if they're lucky enough, that dream will end up supporting themselves, their families, and then they will start employing other people.

Mm-hmm.

I have never seen the kind of cultures that I have in, in the small business, in corporate world, for example, Yeah. The small business owners really care about their employees and will often sacrifice a lot in order to ensure that those employees continue to be paid, and they have this sense of accountability and responsibility. But conversely, their employees tend to be very loyal. To them as well. And I get to see absolutely the best practice entrepreneurship on a regular basis across many different sectors, industries, geographies. And, you know, things might have— trends might have changed, they might have different technologies, they might, you know, have different supply chains, But what I think is at the heart of being a small business owner, an entrepreneur, I don't think it has changed in decades, and that's the passion and enormous hard work.

Yeah.

And feeling of accountability and responsibility for others.

That's interesting. So, Anna, you've, you've touched on the values of entrepreneurship or being a good entrepreneur. Are there any other skill sets you'd add to that in terms of what the best looks like?

Well, the best is about continuous improvement as well.

Okay.

And what I often see is these brilliant businesses that have really differentiated product or service offerings, but often they get to a point where they're doing okay, they're doing well, but in order to take that next step, They actually require an investment into different capabilities, different technologies. But because they are so busy working in the business, they do not get a lot of time to work on the business. And so what we always recommend to businesses that get to that stage and who want to grow is to ensure that they have the best possible team around them. So the right financial planner, the right banker, the right tax advisor, a business coach, a mentor, someone that's already been on that road. They need to understand what government grants are available. They need to understand what the best practice looks in other markets or even overseas. So the best entrepreneurs are those that are continuously learning and really utilizing the help and capabilities that they might not necessarily have in their own businesses.

So just a question on that. So it sounds like this segment of the market, I mean, I would probably classify as the risk takers in terms of starting the business or maybe the ones new into it. Maybe if it's a established. But I guess sitting on the other side, you're the bank that's providing potentially funds and loans and services. So how do you go working with these risk-takers and people that are taking chances, where if I think about a bank historically, they've been quite conservative with, you know, who you're lending money to and things like that? So I'd be interested in your perspective on—

I came across a really interesting stat recently, and that is that Australia is something like 72nd or 74th in the world when it comes to commercialising our innovation.

Wow.

And I think you raise a really good point there around this innate conservatism in our— in the banking and finance sector. when it comes to support and financing of entrepreneurship. And look, a lot of the businesses do fail as well.

Yeah.

So we have a duty of care toward both the business owners as well as our shareholders to ensure that we go through the due diligence in terms of ensuring that people are investing in businesses the highest chances of success. So as a bank, we require business plans. We like to understand the full skill set of the directors. Do they have the experience in that particular line of work? And each business owner presents a very different case to us. And we, by having those local bankers, as I said, across 500 locations in Australia, it gives us an opportunity to assess these businesses on an individual basis, but also to have an empathy and an understanding of the local environment.

Yeah.

Business needs of, you know, an agri-small business in rural Queensland are actually quite different to a small business in construction industry in, in metro New South Wales. So we really do take the time to ensure that we assess each and every application on its own merits.

Yeah, and in order to better protect your investment, do you see yourself as also a bit of an advisor? So helping them fill in the gaps potentially in either a business model or advisory or skill set once you've made the investment?

Look, our bankers are definitely part of the team, of the support team. Obviously, we will ensure that we are advising them on the best banking products and services, and we will leave financial planning or tax advice to the relevant professionals. But I think that having someone on your team who can really give you a direction around whether you should take an equipment finance loan or a commercial overdraft, whether you should— whether it's a really good— whether it's a good idea for you to go and use your home as security, which a lot of businesses do. I mean, it's— I think it's really important to have someone that is experienced, that understands credit. and that can advise you to be able to set yourself up for the plans that you have for the future.

Yeah, it sounds like a very personalized interaction. If I reflect on my last interaction with a financial institution, it was a website, a Xero file loaded into somewhere, and then a yes/no kind of Can I touch on that?

I think because you actually raise another really important point there as well. Once the business is set up and once the banking is set up, what we also find is that what our customers want is interaction with us in those moments that really matter for them.

Yeah.

So if they just need another $5,000 or $10,000, or they need a commercial credit card, or they need a small top-up on their overdraft, they would prefer to do that digitally and for it to happen in minutes rather than go through procrastinated and complex application process.

Yeah.

And because we now have digital capabilities utilizing machine learning and AI, We can make those determinations about the viability of your business based on your trading history with us. So we can pre-approve customers or we can assess them rather quickly for those moments when they just want a really quick interaction with us.

Yeah, I'm just like blown away. That data set you must have on Small Business Australia, the value in that at the aggregate, and the insights you'd be able to pull out of that without sort of, you know, being able to work out who it is. But I think you mentioned 1.1 million of the 2.8 million companies are sort of within your data set, which is— I can't imagine the insights you get out of that.

Well, I think the key insights for us are always around looking at different geographies, industries, and sectors, how they're performing, and then knowing proactively which of our customers need extra help and support, probably even before they know it.

Yeah.

Because sometimes a small business directors or owners can get caught up in the day-to-day And having that ability to put in a call and ask, how are you going? Have you considered this? Do you know that this is what competition is doing? This is what's happening in the same industry in this market. It kind of helps us ensure the sustainability and longevity of that customer base.

Yeah.

And for us, obviously, it's in our interest to have as many profitable and as many robust businesses out there and banking with us.

Yes, it's funny, Anna, you've— you mentioned the fact that leaders and entrepreneurs, you know, have a tendency to be stuck in the day-to-day and not take that sort of strategic step back and overview. I imagine it would be the same in your case. So are there any sort of techniques or strategies you use to be able to take that distance?

Look, I often say in a role like mine, there is no work-life balance ever. It comes down to rather disciplined prioritization.

Right.

It comes to trusting people around you to be able to guide you, provide advice, or do the work. So you really have to be comfortable with delegation. as well. And you also, I suppose through experience, need to have that innate sense of where it's okay for you to know 80% of the data and where do you need to know 101%.

Right.

Where do you go super deep in terms of detail and where you need to rely on imperfect information to make a decision.

Sure.

So having a great team around you makes such a difference, and I am incredibly fortunate and blessed that I have the most extraordinary team around me who are all rather inspiring leaders and brilliant operators.

That's, that's a good shout out.

Yes, I was allowed to send them the link.

But I think delving into that, how do you go about building a, a team that you trust and can delegate to and rely on?

Look, I always look at, um, character. I look at, um, authenticity. I look at, um, their previous leadership experience and the impact that they've had. And I try to bring together a team that is complementary when it comes to both Their styles, their different experiences. And for me, diversity is also incredibly important. When I talk about diversity, I don't talk about gender diversity necessarily. I talk about diversity in its true sense of the meaning, which is experience, age, it's different cultural backgrounds, education, different kind of work experiences, different ethnicities, people that have global perspectives, though, and then those that are experts when it comes to, you know, local market— markets and experiences.

Yeah.

So building a team, it takes time, it takes dedication, And it takes trust. You really need to have people that you can absolutely trust.

Yeah.

Uh, people that, um, people that, uh, in another life would be close friends, okay, of yours. People that you would feel comfortable to have in your home. Um, and I think if you, if you do surround yourself with people like that who are aligned in terms of values and integrity, you end up with a winning team.

Yeah, I guess that's a good rule of thumb and probably better than the old airport test. You know, if you're delayed at an airport for 4 hours, who would you like to hang out with?

That one. Okay, well, that's obviously working quite well given the— I think this last week you've had the award and you guys are the biggest bank in that space. And I mean, with 500, an extended team of 500, I would imagine that that's now flowing through your leadership team.

And so the team, the team is over 1,600 people in 500 locations across Australia. So, and, you know, there is this huge, there's a huge sense of accountability and responsibility for a large team for their personal growth, development, for their engagement with their work. Banking is not always this easy, and it's an industry that has been through the Royal Commission, and in many ways is still recovering from that. So— and our employees are also facing the challenges that small businesses are facing increased interest rates, inflation, cost of living. So there is a lot that you need to be congruent to and empathetic to as you manage large teams.

You mentioned trust before and you mentioned the Royal Commission. How are you finding the Are we moving away from that? I know a lot of new regulatory reporting sort of came in, especially within the financial services industry. But are we taking some of that compliance away, or is the board pack just growing and growing? How are you feeling after all of that? And now you're sort of in what I'd consider maybe a clean runway into a new space, but is that still weighing you down?

There is an enormous amount of compliance and regulation. Our small businesses feel it. Now, where I have an advantage over a small business is that I have a risk manager, I have a compliance manager, I have controls manager, I have an analyst, and the list goes on. A small business that needs to comply with all of our red tape regulation, IR laws, does not necessarily have access to that capability. I spoke recently to an owner of an IGA who rang me up and told me that he had over 100 pay rates to calculate for a few students that work over school holidays at the supermarket.

That's crazy.

And there are serious consequences if it does not calculate each and every single one of their entitlements 100% correctly. So whilst I will say there is a significant compliance and regulatory burden on big business, I am a bit more concerned about the impact that it is having on the productivity of smaller end of town. So regulation is super important, but we need to have quality regulation versus volumes of it that tend to sometimes cater to the 1%, but are And I wonder, you mentioned before, 70—

we're the 74th best country, or 74th best country to commercialise our ideas. I wonder if we're— how we sort of sit from a regulation perspective, and whether there's a— do you think there's a correlation there?

Look, regulation is important because it, at the end of the day, it protects the consumer and it protects the business owner. So the intent of regulation is right. The issue becomes when you end up with a very complex ecosystem of multiple regulators and multiple regulations and different IR laws, and when we try to apply the same regulation to a business with 3 employees with that one of 3,000 employees. And I think that there is a need for simplification and assessment of quality and the impact that it is having on people being able to commercialize their ideas. How much time do they need to spend on red tape versus how much time they're spending on thinking about e-commerce, digitization, and new revenue lines, best practice overseas, strategy, etc., etc. Yeah.

And who do you see driving that change?

It has to be a— it's got to be a combination of industry, government, chambers of commerce, banks. It is not something that one party or one interested party can go and change. It, you know, the government needs to listen to the public. The chambers of commerce need to think about the alternatives. The banks need to look at the best practices overseas and, when appropriate, challenge some of the regulations, because we deal with customers every single day. my teams speak to 40,000 business owners each week from a servicing perspective. So we kind of know what is going on and what is working and what's not working. And it's really important for that information to flow across board.

Hey everyone, thanks so much for tuning in. If you're loving this podcast, please give us a 5-star review.

No doubt that you are Absolutely fantastic role model for individuals, but also for female individuals that are progressing their career. I think in our last podcast, you mentioned that before the age of 6, you were doing piano, tennis, and ballet at an elite level. And by the age of 12, you'd been smuggled out of the country you grew up in and loved and found your way into Australia. And education was sort of your path there. And you didn't reunite with your parents.

No.

till sort of a late— later stage as an adult. Um, so obviously you took a blend of many different influences, and, um, obviously they've worked in a, in a, in a good way because of where you are today. Um, but where do you sort of see that landscape at the moment for, um, you know, within funding or venture capitalism at the moment around, you know, uh, I think we were mentioning sort of 3% of female founders are getting backed?

Look, you don't have to be a refugee with quite as dramatic backstory as mine to find the commercial environment in Australia for female entrepreneurs, or indeed females in, in corporate world, or those industries that are traditionally male-dominated, to be challenging. It is challenging. There's no doubt about it. Yes, I mentioned to you that 3% of venture capital goes to female business owners. 12% of venture capital leadership are female. So it's a self-perpetuating cycle. In corporate worlds, you will very rarely find the top 100 ASX companies whose boards or execs and leadership teams fully represent the diversity of their customer base.

Yeah, you got that stat on the way in, can you recall it?

Well, I think it was, um, 26% of the ASX 100 have females in their executive group. Yeah, that's right.

And that's just one measure of diversity. When you add a full view of diversity around ethnicity, around sexual orientation, disability in particular, it's, it's much lower than that.

Yes.

And we've seen the pay gap stats that have also come out.

Mm.

And that also reinforces not so much the inequity in terms of pay for same roles, but what it highlights is a significant lack of representation at senior levels and in highly paid jobs. And this is both a structural issue, but it's also cultural. And I think there is a long way to go until meritocracy becomes a true measure of who is promoted, who is demoted, who is sponsored, who is mentored. And who gets to the top and those that don't.

Who do you think is leading the charge with that, Anna? If you look maybe overseas or potentially maybe a different company or something, is there anyone you'd like to highlight?

Look, I think Scandinavian countries are leading the way. They tend to lead the way on most progressive issues. But look, they have their own challenges as well. I think that in some countries the issue of childcare, which is seen as one of the major issues for women being able to return to the workforce, is better managed. But overall, globally, we are not where we need to be.

That's interesting, the cultural element. I know you're off to India, I think, at the end of the week, And I mean, the cultural norms there are that your mum and dad move in and sort of you're raised in more of a household setting of multi-generational, not— whereas here maybe the norm may be that you live with your kids as parents. And so that support and childcare is super expensive. I don't know where I was going with that question. Maybe I was just venting, but different. Is that what you mean by the cultural?

I sit on a board of a large childcare provider who do the most extraordinary job in terms of educating thousands upon thousands of preschool children. And interesting talking to their leadership team who have been in this industry for a very long time and who have been advocating for universal childcare. entire lives. It is a— it has a— the lack of universal childcare has a real impact on female workforce participation.

Yeah.

Even if a woman takes 2, 1 or 2 years out of workforce with each child, her male colleague has progressed.

Yeah.

Is earning more, has more capability, perhaps has learned more. So it's— for me, it is a real structural issue that those women who want to be back in the workforce can't, because as you said, childcare can be prohibitively expensive.

Yeah, definitely. And anecdotally, I was in Germany this summer, and again, it's like a lot of kindergartens are free, for example, or state financed.

Yes.

All that sort of to encourage females to go back into the workforce.

Most of continental Europe has free childcare.

Yeah.

Right.

Coming here and hearing my friends with their young families.

You'll get there, mate.

Work to be done. Yeah.

Yes.

Yeah, I guess, Anna, obviously you've, you've reflected a lot on the great values for entrepreneurs, and I think a lot of those align with your own, you know, given sort of the fortitude or the grit, hard work, compassion, passion, and commitment. Are there any other sort of traits or lessons that you'd like to highlight as in terms of being successful in life, whether that's in as an entrepreneur or as in a corporate, for example?

A couple of things I'd say. One is being honest with yourself. I think it's really important, and being comfortable in your own skin. I often talk about this sense of being comfortable about not belonging and not trying to fit the stereotypes, because you lose your authenticity in the process. And by losing your authenticity, you lose that key ability to really connect with people at a genuine level. Working hard. And I'll repeat that. Working hard. Work ethic. Demonstrating that you have what it takes to go the extra step.

Mm.

That you're not afraid of discretionary effort.

Yes.

That you've got that continuous improvement perspective and that you never think that you've reached the panacea of what something— of what good looks like. Because for me, there's always a better option out there. There is also something about making sure that you surround yourself with the right people and being really particular about who is in your inner loop and who is in your outer loop, because those people have a lot of influence on you sometimes when you don't even realize it. And then the piece around educating yourself and learning continuously. We are living in this extraordinarily changing world where, you know, that what good looks like yesterday is very different to what good looks like today, and it will be very different to what good looks like tomorrow. So you've got to kind of keep up with the times even when it is really difficult.

Yeah, that's interesting. And just coming back to that inner loop statement, what does good look like in your inner loop? What sort of people do you want near you?

You want people— I go back to that word trust— and you want people that will be honest with you. And I feel that for a leader these days, the most dangerous position to be in is when you're in that blind spot of you don't know what you don't know. And if you are able to surround yourself with people that they will care enough to tell you and have enough, I suppose, care, knowledge, and understanding to point it out to you in order for you to improve. It's so much better than learning through a mistake.

Definitely.

Now, nothing wrong with making a mistake. It's actually not about the mistake itself. It's around what do you do after you've made the mistake? Do you learn from it? Do you repeat it? Do you acknowledge it? But surrounding yourself with the right people who are both capable but also who care, I think, precludes you from making too many mistakes. And the other thing is people that can challenge you as well and are not afraid.

Yes.

To challenge you.

And do you have a mentor or a couple of people you use as like an advisory board?

There are a lot of people that I lean on in terms of advice, and they're different people for different types of issues, challenges, and opportunities that I would discuss with them because they each have a particular strength that I absolutely love to tap into. But the key there is also that they feel that you're there for them.

Mm.

And there are certain people in my life that I'd do anything for. And again, that mutual respect, trust, and being able to pick up the phone in absolute confidence It's quite comforting to know that you've got people like that in your corner.

So, Anna, just one final question, because I know Alex has got a couple of short form he's going to throw your way. But just on work ethic, and it's clear to see, you know, through your backstory, the gift of having, you know, parents with high expectations and high expectations on yourself. Continually brings out this work ethic. You know, with a very large team, I imagine your team sort of covers every demographic in terms of Gen Zs, Gen Ys, baby boomers, the whole lot. How do you— I sort of see when I look at your story that the struggle helps to define and crystallize a work ethic which Without— I don't know how you could get out of the struggle, but with— my question might be strange, but without a struggle, how do you sort of get this work ethic?

Yes, sometimes I— and I think it's a challenge. It's a challenge both professionally as well as at a personal level. I've got 2 children, and I often worry about what I sometimes called affluenza. surrounding them. And the fact that, of course, I would never ever want my children to go through in their early life the experiences that I have had.

Mm-hmm.

At the same time, there is danger in living in a life that is incredibly comfortable and without relevant challenges because it doesn't set you up for the resilience that is needed to get through life.

Yeah.

So when it comes to my teams, I try to define a culture of what does excellence look like.

Yeah.

What is a performance edge? What is a business that is continuously improving? What does success look like? And through your own actions and through being very clear on your expectations, as well as who are you promoting, who are you demoting, who are you investing in, sending very clear signals about those standards and expectations, you start molding a culture that is a little bit more progressive, that is a little bit more successful. And I find that it creates a bit of a snowball effect. You can't even start attracting people with similar aspirations and who like to do things to a higher standard.

Yeah, great. Thank you for answering it. Sorry, I fumbled the question, but I think you got the gist of it. So I didn't make that easy for you, but thank you. And I'll hand over to you, Alex, and we can jump in.

Well, I guess actually before we close off that segment, it'd be quite interesting to think, obviously that's how you sort of operate in the work environment, but if you're talking on sort of a more personal community level, how do you help encourage sort of a work ethic in, for example, in a family or in children or in oneself?

Yeah, again, it comes to a couple of things. One is setting up those really, really high expectations and standards of both behavior as well as work output. But on the other hand, providing enormous amount of support, encouragement, and love, and care. I am— with my children, it's sometimes it can be do as I say, not as I do. But in the work environment, you've got to walk the talk.

Yeah, you've got to lead by example.

Because people— there is nothing that people dislike more than that inauthenticity of saying one thing and doing another. So you really need to demonstrate through your own behavior the conduct that you expect of others. I've gotten into this habit of every single day when I drive back home of going through the day and thinking about who do I need to thank that I interacted with today, who do I need to apologize to, and who do I need to extend the conversation with.

Yeah.

And that kind of grounds you into ensuring that every interaction that you have every single day is constructive and that you don't leave things to chance. That point of reflection to me is really important.

Sounds like that's your transition time.

Yes.

Day's closed. There's your 3 grouping. Do you action them straight away or do you grab them tomorrow morning?

If it's going to take me less than 2 minutes, I am going to action it straight away. If not, I am going to ensure that it is done in the time that that does it justice.

Yeah, great.

That's powerful. I love your point as well about leaders having to lead from example.

And yeah, well, if you can keep up—

If you can keep up.

High expectations.

That's right.

Anna, we're going to transition now to the more short-form questions. Please do expand on your answer as to why you've chosen these things. Do you have a favorite book?

Yes, absolutely. I read my favorite book when I was 8 years old, and then I reread it in 3 other languages. It's Tolstoy's Anna Karenina. And what I love about that book is that in each language it felt completely different reading it. And again, I think that also much later on, I reflected on the fact that it's— that that is in itself a reflection of different cultures and how language can be very different in expression as it is applied.

Yeah, that book is on my reading list. I'm ashamed to say I've never attempted it.

Tolstoy's Anna Karenina.

Tolstoy's Anna Karenina.

Great. Okay, we'll put the link in the show notes.

Anna, do you have a favorite quote?

Yes, I do.

Can you please share?

Former Supreme Justice Ginsburg, she said something that I've really tried to stick to in my career and how I lead. And that is that it is okay to fight for things that you really believe in and care about, but you have to do it in a way that will get others to follow you. And that for me means that the how is just as important as the what.

Yeah.

And sometimes We forget the how in the pursuit of what, and that can be quite destructive, both at home as well as in the workplace. And, you know, the journey to get somewhere is just as important as the destination itself.

Absolutely. Thank you for sharing that. Anna, are you— have you picked up a an interest or a passion recently that we might not know?

It's been imposed upon me.

Okay.

My son plays a lot of tennis, so I have ended up having an unusual level of knowledge and understanding of the game, of who plays the game, or where the game is played, on junior game versus professional tour game. So I've kind of been quite inundated with tennis, and it's actually a really nice way that our family gets together.

Yeah.

And it's a passion that we've now ended up sharing collectively. I think it's so important that families have something that they can really connect over, be it a hobby or a sport or a common interest.

Yeah, definitely. That's great.

We had tennis, piano, ballet.

The other two are gone.

Fantastic. And is that— so at 6 years old, were they sort of semi-professional? Has this sort of— is it sort of, you know, hereditary?

No, I grew up in a very, very different context. where children were expected to do certain things and learn certain things regardless of whether they had talent for it or not.

Right.

Which, whereas in this culture, thankfully, we, you know, children tend to choose what they have an affinity with, and as parents, we support them in that. So it's quite a different context. My son's tennis versus my tennis.

Yeah, but actually, more generally, do you think people should focus on their strengths or sort of improve their weaknesses?

You have to improve your weaknesses if they're absolutely debilitating. Yeah, but it's also important to acknowledge that your weaknesses are probably never going to be your great strengths. I'm never going to be a good piano player, no matter how much my family wanted me to be. Your strengths is what differentiates you, and but at the same time, you have to be careful about not overplaying your strengths as well, and just making sure that there is a level of balance with an accent on your strengths.

Yes, thank you. And Anna, what advice would you give your younger self? If you could.

Just because my childhood was so interrupted and traumatic in a way, I would— the only thing that comes to my mind is just, don't worry, it'll be okay. It's that constant worry and anxiety about what's going to happen tomorrow, what's going to happen now, is everyone okay? You know, growing up with that. The idea of, you know, don't worry, it'll be okay, would have been really, really comforting.

I can imagine. And what would you like your legacy to be?

I often think about that, and I tend to come up with— people ask me for help, And I helped and people didn't ask me for help and I still helped. Because my life has been blessed simply because I had so many people that have helped and I have this really strong sense of gratitude but also need to contribute back. Otherwise I get consumed by a sense of guilt about not contributing enough.

And I saw that. Firsthand, so thank you. I benefited greatly from that. So in a previous life, I was— I've approached you about getting some career advice and you'd never met me from a bar or so, but you said, yep, sure, come and see me. So I came and met you at, I think it was, yeah, NAB down in sort of Docklands there, one of the new buildings.

Yes.

Then we basically ran through my CV, you gave me all this advice around, oh, don't put that in because it doesn't really matter and shorten this and shape this up and Which ended up being successful enough to get me a job.

I'm so pleased to hear that because I just don't remember it, right?

Good, good. But I didn't do the follow-up. I think the old Joe Miklius rule about when you meet with, you know, have a mentoring engagement, you always follow up. So I should have told you that thank you for the career advice.

Maybe that's why I don't remember.

Yes, follow up. But there it is. So you really do live, your legacy's already at large. and it's impacted my life. So thank you.

Thank you.

I didn't stay there very long, but I got the job.

Well, you got the job. That's exactly— at least you had choice then, right?

That's true.

Anna, before we go into the rapid-fire questions, is there anything that we haven't spoken about or touched on today that you'd like to—

There we go, fully comprehensive there.

That's been good.

I don't think so.

Yeah, fantastic.

Better to keep it short and sharp.

Absolutely.

Which is a good segue into a short and sharp segment.

Excellent. Dave, you got your timer?

Oh, yes, I do.

Excellent.

I might go analog here. Okay, ready? 3, 2, 1.

All right. Anna, commercial or retail banking?

Both.

Domestic focus or international?

Both.

Culture or strategy?

Culture.

Formal or informal education?

Both. You need both.

Free markets or government intervention?

You need both.

I was gonna say, I see a pattern here. Fiction or nonfiction?

Nonfiction.

Sweet or savory?

Sweet.

Books or movies?

Books.

Summer or winter?

Winter.

Comedy or drama?

Drama.

Classic art or modern art?

Classic art.

Dancing or singing?

Dancing.

Board games or video games?

Board games.

Innovation or optimization?

Innovation.

Entrepreneurship or corporate leadership?

You need both.

Risk-taker or risk-averse?

Risk-taker.

Traditional office or remote work?

Traditional office.

Organic growth or strategic partnerships?

Both.

Long-term planning or agile adaption?

Both.

And we're out. All right, wasn't too grueling there.

Yeah, I just said a lot of boths, right? I just don't see that you can have one at the exclusion of the other.

No, life's not black and white.

No, it's shades of gray, isn't it?

Yeah, I agree. Yeah, well, thank you for coming on today and, um, yeah, sharing your perspective, especially sort of the opening part of the podcast where we did dig into some areas to really get your perspective. And I think, yeah, we've really taken a lot of value out of having you on. And thank you for coming on the show a second, second time.

Absolute pleasure. And thank you for having me.

Thank you, Anna.

Thank you, Anna. It's been a pleasure. Hey, this is Alex. If you enjoyed the content so far and you want us to do more, if you want to hear more, click the subscribe button. It allows us to bring on more guests in the future. Thanks.