From Doctor to Entrepreneur: Harnessing the Power of Scent in Branding with Suji Sanjeevan

Back in 2019, we wanted niche. We thought to ourselves, we love scent, what can we do? So we took what was a product-based business and created a service-based option, and that was scent marketing. So we've all been to these bougie hotels and shopping spaces where scent is very prominent. You'll smell it and you'll remember it. So if I exposed you to scent, 6 months later, you'll still know that was a hotel that I stayed in. And, you know, you even wanna take it home with you.

Okay, Suji Sanjeevan, welcome to The Mentor List.

Thank you, Dave. Thank you for having me.

Well, thank you for coming in today, and we're just having a pre-chat, and we know that we're ready to explode into conversation. I've been really excited about, um, getting you into the studio today because I've got lots of questions planned. But the first one, um, And maybe for the listeners' benefit who maybe haven't come across your profile yet, Suji, doctor, went on maternity leave, then to become an entrepreneur.

Yeah.

In my mind, being a doctor, you have a pretty significant market rate out there. Going into maternity leave, you have a, you know, a huge value on being able to spend, or you know the value of spending time with the family.

Yeah.

So 2 big ROI things. And then was that, did that make it harder to then sort of follow an entrepreneurial path?

Sure. I think for me, back in, you know, rolling back to 2015 when I was on maternity leave with my second child, we at that time, so Jiva and I, my husband and I both were working in the medical field. I was in research. Although I'd done medicine, for me, I didn't have the heart to continue. So I gave that up even though I'd done the degree. And I'd done the degree because that's what I knew, that's what I was told I should do and I did it. But I realized on finishing that My heart wasn't in it. So for me, it was more behind the scenes. I loved writing. I loved creativity. And so I stepped into policy governance and clinical research at RCH. And my husband at the time was working in allergy at RCH as well. So we were working together actually from day dot. And that's Royal Children's Hospital. That's right. Yeah.

Great. Oh, sorry. Yes. Bernadette, CEO, is a member.

So For us, working around the clock, we weren't having a lot of free time with our son. So migrants, we didn't have family here. My family's back in London. It was just Jiva, myself, and Tharen, my son at the time who was 4. And something, we knew something had changed before we had our second child because, and I think the turning point was really having to send my son to childcare at just 4 and a half months and dropping him off at 6:00 AM, 6:00 PM. PM, not having freedom, and within the career itself not being satisfying because I was hitting these glass ceilings. I wasn't able to move forward. And when I was on my maternity with our second child and I said to Juva, I can't put this child through the same thing that we did with our eldest, something's got to change. And business was definitely not my forte. I had no idea about business. But what I did know was I love—

Mm-hmm.

the art of scents, the psychology behind it, how it influences behavioral science, but also packaging design and how to present things. So I dabbled in that on my maternity leave with my son. And for my baby shower, I created some gifts and people said, these are really different. Why don't you step into business? I was like—

What were the gifts like?

They were candles, they were fragrance candles, but they had wooden wicks. So at the time they were, pretty novel, and they crackle. They're actually pretty beautiful, slow burning, FSC certified. All those sustainable tick boxes are there, and people love the packaging. So they said, why don't you create more of this? And this was December 2015. I thought to myself, well, I've got another 6 months maternity leave. Let me just set my— and I'm ambitious, so I love to set myself targets. So I set myself target, if I invest $237 into this business, if I can turn it into tenfold, I may be onto something. Given that it's a saturated market, I was kind of worried as to what would happen, but I achieved that and more.

Wow.

And so I knew that there was definitely something different about what we created and how we marketed it. So we talk about it in a way of putting the science back into scents for our products and Shiva at the time was still working. He was working at the RCH and he said, look, I'll help you with this because he can see it really lit a fire in my belly. Not only the business, but the, just the idea of having that freedom, having 2 children now, 2 young children and a family to look after, the time freedom as well. I was seeing my, more of my son. I was able to drop him at school, pick him up. So, and that's really why I stepped into business and why I gave it 110% to start to scale the business.

Great. And you mentioned there scale the business. So maybe tell me about, you know, getting onto Shark Tank. So what was the driver for that? Did that change throughout it? And I guess looking back now, you know, would you do it again for those same reasons or was it effective?

So in 2016, you're a candle brand. Yes, you've made your mark locally, Um, people love your products, but growing a brand that is extremely saturated on a national scale and then a global scale is a hard task. So we knew that we had to do events, create awareness, and very strategic marketing. And that's exactly what we did. We started to appear in different events and markets, very humble beginnings, and we started doing them around Melbourne, Victoria interstate. And that was Light and Glow. So that was the candle brand, the product brand, the fragrance house as we call it now. And fast forward to 2019, the brand is now scaling. We've got a number of manufacturing awards under our belt and we'd been recently featured in the American Express Shop Small campaign. So national exposure, great brand association. But we'd hit a point where we were like, we need to niche down, we need to create something different. At which point Jeeva stepped into the business full-time. He'd always been there and helped, but it was at a tipping point where we needed 2 founders to be present full-time.

So this is not just you at home with the kids now? No, this is your—

we'd moved actually in 2015, we began in 2017, we moved into a 100 square meter warehouse. 2019, we've moved into a 400 square metre warehouse. And actually in 2021, even though there was the obviously COVID and the economic downturn, we moved into a 1,200 metre square warehouse.

Wow.

So we were scaling exponentially.

You're almost due for another move, by the way.

But we were also having to learn off the cuff. Like when I started, I had no idea what cash flow meant, that I had to be aware of KPIs, all these acronyms that were being thrown at us. And I was like, okay, I've got to learn. I need to have a solid foundation to build on. And so we did, we did educate ourselves. So as I was saying, yeah, back in 2019 we wanted niche. So we thought to ourselves, we love scent, what can we do? So we took what was a product-based business and created a service-based option and that was scent marketing.

Mm-hmm.

So we've all been to these bougie hotels and shopping spaces where scent is very prominent. You'll smell it and you'll remember it. So if I exposed you to scent that scent 6 months later, you'll still know that was the hotel that I stayed in. And, you know, you even wanna take it home with you.

I think I was telling you that my wife and I did stay at a hotel up in North Queensland and we did ask them what the scent was and we sourced it. And now we've put it in our robot vacuums and enjoying that every day.

So you've gone out your way to create that ambience at home. And so we needed to tap into that. It was, you know, there's a few players there, with a medical background, the ability to talk about behavioral science and human behavior, we had a point of difference. So, and also in terms of scaling or products or merchandise, we had a factory, a manufacturing facility.

Right.

So everything was there for the taking. And that's when Brand Scent came about. So Brand Scent is a scent marketing agency. We've now formed partnerships with Shandon, Arnott's, we've done, we've worked on a Tim Tams campaign. So we created a Tim Tams smell and they then commercialized that. We've worked with Bega, we've worked with American Express, we've created fragrances for them as well.

Did you say Bega?

Yeah.

The cheese.

The cheese, Vegemite. I like the cheese. Not the, no, not the cheese, it was actually Vegemite.

Ah, great.

Yeah, the smell. So we've done, we've dabbled in this, we've done a lot of R&D behind this. Those brands have come to us and said, can you, replicate these smells for us, whether it be for a campaign or creating an olfactory logo. So if, for example, Mimosa Homes, one of our biggest clients and long-term clients, we create their scent marketing, we take care of their scent marketing, should I say, and created their scent. They use it in their spaces, so their display homes, they use it at their head office, they then use it in their settlement gifts.

So that's an interesting one maybe just to dig into 'cause, yeah, I mean, you get sort of different advice when you're selling your home, you know, bake a cake before people come or put a pot of coffee on. And then you get the opposite from another agent who's, oh, not everyone likes coffee, so don't put coffee on.

Yeah.

Like, did you find in that example, 'cause there's a wide potential audience, how do you sort of narrow in on something that's, is it something that everyone will like or is it—

It has to be, I think it has to be gender neutral. It has to be, it can't be polarizing because like you said, Firstly, you need to look at your target audience. How do you want them to make them feel? What sense of wellbeing do they wanna have? But then also you need to look at the brand and its identity, its brand colors. So put— so it's not a quick, hey, this scent's gonna work for you, but it is actually nutting down and creating a brand strategy based on the colors, based on feelings and emotions and behavior. And so that's what we did with Mimosa Homes.

Yeah.

We created a unique scent them and they've utilized it in multiple touchpoints. So when they do take it home as a settlement gift and they're burning that candle or having that reed diffuser in their house and someone comes along and goes, hey, that smells great. And when they're exposed to it again in a display home, you're really connecting the brand and feeling an emotion right there and then. And there's plenty of research done from many, many years ago that shows that scent marketing definitely does work. As much as you can't measure it. So a lot of people go, what's the return on investment? If I invest in a smell or a scent, what am I gonna get back? I flip it to them and say, what's the return on imagination? So if you're not imagining, we're not innovating. So we need to, as a brand, cultivate innovation. And that's exactly what we do at Brand Scent.

'Cause I mean, these sort of large corporates that you're working with, I mean, their customer experience is really sort of evolving. And it's interesting to hear that scent is, is scent new in this equation or has it always been there or not considered? Or is that my ignorance in this one of the senses?

I think a lot of people aren't aware of it. It has always been there. You've been into Subway, that's pumped through the scents. You've been to—

So that's not the cookies from the morning?

No.

Oh my God.

Yeah, Burger King do it really well in the US. Nike do it. So what it does, it causes people to linger. And when you linger in a retail space, you're gonna spend more because you're gonna see that something that catches your eye.

Yeah.

So it's really about manipulating human behavior to possibly spend more or have a better association. So if it's a university, what they're trying to do is get students or cohorts to concentrate. Or if it's a nursing home, we've done it with, And we're alleviating pain points. So when I say pain points, one of the biggest things is residents are not relaxed or they're not eating. We can manipulate that through scent so we can increase satiety or we can make them feel relaxed. So you're actually creating or alleviating problems for nursing homes or in that healthcare sector. So there's many opportunities.

Mm-hmm.

And like you said, in terms of How long has it been around? Crown do it really well. How— why do we— as you walk past Crown, you kind of— it draws you in. Or if you're a pop-up and you kind of walk past and you smell coffee, you might not have wanted coffee, but all of a sudden you're craving coffee. So each smell, I guess, pinpoints different. You might be attracted to it, I might not be. So there is obviously that. But I think overall, if a brand does it correctly, it's extremely powerful.

Fantastic. You mentioned Crown there, not that they're an example of this, but maybe the Vegas casinos, they're pumping oxygen out onto the floors. Would they be putting, you know, some things in the products?

Oh, casinos do it really well to get people to stay, people to keep and stay, and they spend more in the pokies. And, you know, so a lot of brands can use it for that in their marketing. Other brands can use it to alleviate problems in the healthcare. And as a brand, we're taking it one step further. So we're working with, as doctors, So to create human behavior, we've got some products and prototypes in the making to help with anxiety. And then the future of that digital space, we are working with brands to create digital scents.

Wow.

So when we're all walking around with these suits, how do you connect with a brand? Yes, there's visual, but smell is another form of connection.

Gosh.

So yeah, future-proofing the business.

It's absolutely, oh God, I'm so fascinated by this. Okay, so you've started Light& Co, the product business. Was the decision to manufacture local or did you look at, and has that changed? Are you still, or have you had a global manufacturing ring now?

Sure, so we've always remained Australian made. So we're licensed by Australian Made. And so we manufacture here in Melbourne, in Truganina. Everything is handmade and we've remained as such and will remain as such because I think, post-COVID, there has been this resurgence of loyalty and wanting to shop local, shop Australian-made, and support small businesses. And for us, it's about the local economy, the local jobs, and the people that we employ. So that's really important to us. I think as a business, you need to have not only a commercial aspect to it but a social aspect to it, and that forms part of our social aspect.

Yeah, right. And I'm hoping you might be able to help me to debunk maybe a stereotype, which James Fasino, who's one of our group chairs, is also chair of Manufacturing Australia, and he's very big on this. There's a stereotype that manufacturing is a dirty guy with a hammer and it's hard work.

Yeah.

Could you help me debunk that so we can get more diversity and just paint a picture of what it's actually really like?

Well, you need to come through our factory. Every time someone walks through there, you've got the best and the best looking factory.

Of course.

So I think this, we're a soft manufacturer obviously, so it depends on what you manufacture. But with the new robotics, like we're working with Wyndham Tech School at the moment with some R&D to create robots for wicking our candles. So there's tasks obviously staff don't love doing because it's repetitive, possible injuries.

You're still using timber?

Yeah, so we use wood wicks. We use a bit of glue, I'm sorry, we pop it into the tins. So as much as you love doing it, how do you get rid of these repetitive tasks? But also—

Is it splinter prone?

No, we've got gloves and everything like that, all cut and everything. So we've not had those injuries. We've tick boxed. And so we have people come through, check WorkSafe and all of those things. But how do you incorporate the new AI and robotics into it? And that's what we're doing. But as far as the factory is a dirty job, no, I love that job.

And I walk out every day wanting to go back And so have you got your own scent going in, or is Monday the smell of Vegemite?

Oh yeah, exactly. Well, I tried to stay away from the office when that was happening, when the R&D was happening. So, um, but some— when Tim Tam was pouring, I think everyone kind of came in. But yeah, every— the factory will smell like whatever we're pouring that day, but Brandscent itself has its own identity based on its brand colors and, um, and who we want to work with.

Yeah. So you mentioned sort of, yeah, evolving the business now into what is effectively a professional service working with some, you know, fascinating names. And Amex was one you mentioned as well with their lounges. It's, what's that sort of, is that a co-creation or is that something that you are creating? Maybe tell us a bit more about that process.

So we first, I guess, worked with American Express back in 2019 through Light and Glow. So they sought us out and said, we'd love to feature you in the Shop Small campaign, which is really about, once again, Australian manufacturing and showcasing small businesses. And that was instrumental in our awareness building. But what we realized at that point in time was business is based on people, and people love to do business with people, and we built— love to build relationships. And from what was just a small opportunity that could have been fleeting, we connected with the team, everyone on the team, from the film crew to the makeup crew. We're still in contact with them. And then American Express's marketing team. As a result, we then got given a number of opportunities. So I'm part of their American Express Business Class. I've spoken on a couple of their podcasts. We've met Mark Burris. Like, there's opportunities that would never have come about until you form these real connections and build that trust. And as a result, we worked with their marketing team and they said, hey, can you create a scent for us? They've already got a scent, but they wanted to create it for the APAC region to be able to create this incredible experience when their customers open up the boxes, they receive their cart. So it's actually going around and we sent it out to Singapore, Hong Kong, and here. So when they open it up, it's that smell that Brandscent created right here in Australia that they're smelling.

So they're sending out boxes.

Boxes smell, yeah. So again, another touchpoint, another idea. Scent can be utilized in so many ways and in so many products. So that box, when they receive it, immediately makes them think of American Express. And every time they walk past it or if they've received a candle from the company, it's really subtle marketing but done very cleverly.

Yeah, 'cause you always remember, I don't know if you're an iPhone convert, You know, you open the box and it's this vacuum seal and you just feel like there's a lot of thought that's gone into it. And then it unveils itself and it's quite an experience. So, okay, so I didn't know that. When I got my first Amex, it was just in a plain white envelope.

So I have to upgrade.

Yes. Maybe I'm not in the right tier. Okay, so maybe we could just delve into a little bit more around sort of, human behavior and sort of the impact on scent. It's obviously one of, is it 5 sensory types?

Yes.

And how they overlap.

Sure.

Yeah, Matt, you mentioned sort of it has the potential to increase ROI if you're in store or have a calming effect. So maybe if we could just dig into the different types there, 'cause I think it might be new to a few people listening in.

Yeah, sure. So where scent is processed in your brain, it has a direct connection to your brain unlike the other senses. is where emotions and memory is also processed. So the 3 are being processed in the same place and that's where the magic is. So when you're smelling something, immediately it gets emotional and it creates a memory. So aside from if you see something visually or hear it, you might remember it a couple of months' time, but with scent, it's a 60% recall even a year later. So, and that's a proven fact in terms of research.

So— What's an example of that? Like?

So like I mentioned, in terms of hotels, you're talking about it, how long ago was that? So really it's those. And if I had that smell wafting through now, immediately you click and go, it's that hotel that I stayed in. So it's really powerful in that way. But what it's also tapping in is to memory. So you're remembering where you were at that point in time, but also an emotion connection as to what happened there and then, how you enjoyed it. So it really bring, floods that back. So people, say to us sometimes when they're exposed to a smell, this reminds me of, you know, my childhood growing up. So we create that through, so we do these scents for Diwali. So we're Hindus and we created this scent and people often say to us that it takes them right back to when they were celebrating as children. You know, they may have since lost parents or been displaced or however, but they hold that childhood in that scent. And just like that, if you're— I walk past certain flowers and it reminds me of my grandmother or her cooking, things like that. Scent is so powerful and emotional. It strikes you at, you know, when you least expect it, but it really is an impactful form of, yeah, a sense.

So with that sort of power, my brain's sort of thinking, okay, the application of this, and we've just gone through a process to get our, you know, logos and branding trademarked, which was, you know, an ordeal that every business needs to go through.

Yes.

From a scent perspective, is that where it's heading or is it already there? Can I have my own smell and protect it and no one can touch it?

That's exactly right, yeah. So I remember as I walked in, so obviously you've got this dark branding with a bit of gray. So I would say your branding's quite sophisticated in the way you're working with corporates. So once again, The scents and notes that I would say would be bergamot, oud, softwood, because they're all about luxury, a sense of sophistication. So really honing down your branding, your lookbook, and all of those things, I would start to create an idea. But then also it's your brand, so you'd have input into what smells you would have to, and also your team, they're gonna be exposed to it every day. So we could expose it through the vents. You can have it as people come in. So people coming through to, you know, film or clients that you are meeting immediately be like, this is the Mentor List smell. So you start to create a brand identity, a scent identity.

Hmm.

We put a lot of focus on visual identity that a lot of people will forget, but we don't put a lot of focus on that scent identity, which they are unlikely to forget when they're exposed to it again. So yeah, so maybe that's on the cards.

No, absolutely. But I'd love to explore that. So I mean, 'cause we send stuff physically in the mail and that is currently sent with—

That's another touchpoint, exactly. And then if you're popping that in there, people are getting a smell of Mentor List, not just something like that is, okay, that's great, I'll put it aside, whatever it may be. But here again, if they're sitting on the table, it's smelling, they're exposed to it daily. So once again, you're constantly on their mind, front and center. And so if they think of a service that you provide, immediately MentorList is right up there because they've been marketed to while it's just sitting on their desk.

How do we transfer the smell? Like where is it stored? Are we diffusing oils? Is it a combination of many different things? You mentioned in the vents, are we putting something up there or?

So we can hook it up to your aircon system. So there's many ways of diffusing it. So you can have standalone units that we can have there that you can set to time and the strength that you want it at. We can have it in products so we can merchandise it right through from candles, room spray, reed diffusers, because we have that manufacturing facility, to even cost-effective small little scent cards that you're popping in with mails. It's not gonna add much weight, but it's gonna add a lot of impact. And yes, if it's your permanent space, we can put it through the Havac system. Done it with quite a few brands. Like, we work with Skydeck, and on their 88th floor, they had a pain point in that they had a little cafe around the corner, but it wasn't selling a lot. Um, no one was coming up and buying coffee or cakes. So they said to us, look, how do we alleviate this problem? So their core is parents, tourists, little kids that are there. Well, kids love cakes, so we put a coffee— uh, sorry, not a coffee, a cookie scent And we popped it in there, we trialed it for their first Q1 of 2024, and they said they've had the best quarter yet. Because as soon as the children smell that smell, they're gonna be drawn to the smell.

Mm-hmm.

As soon as you buy a cookie for your child, well, you want a coffee too, then, you know, potentially something else. And suddenly what was, you were spending zero, you thought, you're spending $40, $50, and that revenue starts to add up. So there's definitely worthy of an investment there, yeah.

You mentioned sort of migrating from the UK and I've just, when you were talking about that, you know how you get those nut roasters on the corner and you can't even see 'em, but before you even know they're there, you're like, there it is, and you make a beeline.

It's the winter markets. It really draws you in, the hot chocolates, the smells. It's, you suddenly are wanting whatever that you're smelling. It's, yeah.

I mean, it sounds like a fun sort of exercise to do. Is this also, I mean, is it a team building? I mean, it must be, yeah. Maybe talk to me about that component 'cause I bet there's a few people that are, I was gonna try and put a sense pun in there, but my brain's fried.

Yeah, so what we've done is we've really understood, obviously we understand science coming from the medical background. So we understand that the human behavior side, But the last 2 years we've spent really understanding scents, the layering of scents, the top notes, the middle notes, the base notes, how they come together, how they work. And so we realized that with this economic downturn, you've got to be very nimble in your business and you've gotta be very strategic. So we realized that although consumer spend and discretionary spend is down, people are spending money on bringing people together.

Mm-hmm.

So there was 2 parts to that. So we stepped into experiential marketing, And we stepped into workshops. So experiential marketing is really about creating an ambient. So we had one client come to us and said, we want to create these Turkish market feel. So we said, we created this beautiful scent for them. But what we did was we had standalone units, we scented the cushions, we had gifts that people could take home.

Mm-hmm.

So it was a real, or, you know, immersive experience for them as they walked into the room, the smell hit them, but then it was the visual, the music, everything brought together. So we love doing that. And those are, you know, one-off projects. But the perfume workshop is really about team building. So getting your team together, sometimes we're offsite and we wanna do something that's creative. And so right now what's trending is personalized and bespoke. So if you come to us or we'll come to you, we do perfume workshops. So you can, we'll teach you the art of creating perfumes. you walk away with a perfume that you've created that is truly unique because no one, one little drop is gonna change a perfume completely. So it's a beautiful experience. We're actually doing one with one of our corporate partners at their winery and next month. So we do travel a bit and do those things as well.

Wow, what a great experience. And I guess coming back to sort of, you know, when you're talking about making it for the builder and people coming in, I guess making your own perfume is all about you and what you like. But are there like some parts to it? You mentioned sort of the science or the research or the medical component. Are there just known components that need to give it the structure that it needs? And then there's a bit of—

Yes. When it comes to top notes, we need 2 to 3 variants, middle notes, 3 to 4. And so there's up to about 20 minimum, right through to, you can have a lot more. We like to keep it a little simple, but yes, there are certain notes that won't go together, certain polarizing, like you wouldn't put a vanilla inside a builder because I for one don't like vanilla.

Yeah.

So those scents that are extremely potent would be very polarizing. there are more subtle scents, citrus, we're very, you know, very neutral sort of scents is what we would say go with. But also we need a scent, or a scent note should I say, that is an identifier for the brand. So putting those together, and it's a working process, it takes about 3 months to create a scent for a brand.

Yeah.

We provide IFRA certification and SDSO, so everything is done. We have a French perfumer who works with us as well. She's got 8 years experience. and does this day in and day out. So the team is well-versed in creating scents and following guidelines. So definitely know what we're doing. Yeah, absolutely.

Oh, fantastic. Sorry, I'm just going a bit deep on a few areas. I'm just so curious.

No, I love to talk.

Lots of this. So just maybe before we move into sort of some of the short answer questions, I mean, you know, on your way in here today after dropping off the kids, was there a question you thought, I hope Dave asks me about this because, you know, I think that'd be really valuable for the listeners, or anything we've missed that you wanted to sort of round out the conversation with?

Yeah, sure. I think when it comes to small business and supporting Australian Made, I think as much as there is that emphasis, so we get obviously sidelined sometimes when it comes to, working with corporates. Sometimes it's a tick box exercise in terms of that. We'd love to be able to have more brands and corporates really understanding what small business does for this economy. We often say, um, this cliché, there is, you know, small business is the backbone of the economy. I hate it because we're often the most forgotten of when it comes to small business. But just when you're starting to think about supporting and shopping, you know, shop local. Start to think about the local businesses in your area. What are they doing for the local economy? And start to showcase them. So really seeking out the smaller businesses, what are they doing? And we love to do it. We like, for example, for IWD this year, we showcased some incredible women that we have been fortunate enough to meet from small business right up to huge corporates. Because we pride ourselves, even as a small business, to showcase them, shine light on that. So I think as a small business, large business, or corporate, we have a responsibility, a social responsibility, to shine light on those that are doing something a little special.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Oh, fantastic. And yeah, great advice there. And I've heard that a lot, backbone of Australia. I think I'll probably misquote this and you might correct me, but isn't it like 80% of the GDP is from what we'd classify small business.

Yeah, and yet we don't, when it comes to everything, that small business is, yeah, the least thought about. But hey, it is what it is.

Yes.

We're definitely adaptable, that's for sure.

Oh, absolutely. And I mean, in small business versus a large corporate, you've got many, many hats which you're wearing. You're the CEO, you're the product. Oh goodness, yes. You're the visionary. And just on that, where do you get your sort of inspiration for, you know, looking into the future is smell or scent evolving. You know, did we just, did we like, I don't know, tobacco or that's a bad example, but has that changed now? Is someone today got different preferences or?

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think more so, I guess, than time, it's region. So different places have different kind of, so if you take the Middle East, they very much love the deep woody sort of scents. So if you take the more rural clients that we have, they love the more outback smells.

Hmm.

So I find certainly within the clients and the cohort we work with, where they're from often influences the smells that they like and their clients too. So that is another aspect that you take into place into which region you're from, you know, in China or in places, jasmine. They love those certain smells they attribute to culture. And so if you take India, South Asia, it's that sandalwood sort of smell. So there's a lot of history in smell as well when it comes to it. So bringing those into places, it's— but like you said, wearing many hats. When we were talking about businesses, it's interesting because when you're a small business, yes, you are wearing you know, a lot of things, but you've gotta be strategic in focusing on what you love the most and what you're best at and delegating. And that's why Jiva and I are great because we're very yin and yang. So he's very— I'm very much the right brain creative side. He's very much the left brain strategic budgets and things where we only clash over when I overspend. But other than that, we work really well together. Oh, that's great. So, but as a small business also, when it comes to client interaction, we're always there. So you can talk to us as founders, as owners, you have direct connections. And that's what a lot of big businesses lose out because they lose that connection with their customers. And when you lose that connection, I think you almost lose your identity and people just disconnect.

Yeah, absolutely. And just one more question. I know I said we'd move into short answers, but the adaptability of smell and thinking about Yeah, you're mentioning whether you're rural or you're in a different area, there's a different preference. And one example I'll give you, some of the media agencies now, they can put on, this is an example, but a KFC banner from 5 till 5:30 'cause everyone's driving home and that's the prime time to get 'em for—

Yeah.

A visual on a tram stop or something versus, you know, at 9:00 AM in the morning it might be a Hudson Coffee banner Yes, yeah. Is smell as, is a space assigned smell or can it be multi-scented?

It can be. So there's 2 parts to what we do when it comes to creating a scent. There is the campaign-based scent and there's the scent identity. So the scent identity is like your logo, your branding, that doesn't change. That is your scent identity that you want, that is long-term. And is fixated in the mind of your client because that's how they identify you, through that smell. Campaign-based, on the other hand, is short and fleeting. So much like, for example, the work we did with Chandon, they wanted us to create a scent that mimicked their garden spritz. So that smell you get when you pop open the bottle, that's based on a product and a campaign. So they sell that as a candle at the moment, and we're doing the workshop with them. Or for example, Tim Tam. They wanted that smell, that biscuity chocolate smell campaign for Mother's Day that they commercialized into candles, reed diffusers, and perfumes and then sold. So the KFC that you mentioned, um, we've created the 11 herb spice smell too. So we've dabbled in that and tested it. Um, so again, it's for a campaign, it's gimmicky, it's done, it's done. It's, you know, its purpose was for X amount of time and it moves on, whereas a scent identity and a logo is long-term. That is your identity.

Yep.

Yeah.

And that's the one you can copyright or trademark or protect.

That's exactly right, yes.

Yeah, fantastic. Okay, all right, just about to move into sort of some of the short answers or short question answers now. So do you have a favorite quote?

So there's one that I really love to live by is that, It's more of a mantra, to be honest. And for us in business, humility is so important. So for me, I often say, it's not successful people who are thankful, it's thankful people who are successful. And we've been grateful for every opportunity that's come our way, little or small. How you nurture those relationships and those opportunities is— has led us to where we are right now. So as I mentioned, the American Express could have been just something that was, you know, a flash in the pan, but it wasn't. We built on that. Same with Chandon. I sat next to Matt, head of marketing, randomly at a table. I was just talking to him, but it's the relationship that I built with him that has taken us where we are. The team are incredible. We love working with them and they love working with us. So, but we are forever thankful for those opportunities.

Yeah, what a humble sort of place to start from. Fantastic quote. Thank you for sharing your mantra.

That's okay.

Just knowing what you know now, would you have any advice to your younger self?

For me, certainly failure. And I met for the first time with failure at university and it was definitely an eye-opener and I didn't know how to cope. And now I see failure as first attempt in learning, F-A-I-L.

Mm-hmm.

And I wish someone had told me that failure is just a step into a stone. It's gonna teach you something. That's all it is. It's not the be-all end-all. So not to be too hard on yourself. I was extremely hard growing up and it's only in the last years. And I'll say business, we've only been doing it for 8 and a half years, but my medical career has been many years. But this 8 and a half years has taught me so much about myself, So it's been more of a self-discovery journey than anything else.

Yeah. And very much connecting the dots, 'cause I know when we were chatting before we hit record, you were talking about going in down the medical path and at some point, whether it was during that university time, you've sort of realized that that wasn't the path that you wanted to take. But without that background and knowledge, it would be hard to, I guess.

That's true. That's exactly right. And I'm definitely, I still lean on that knowledge. So I'm grateful for the knowledge it created It gave me, I loved learning. So that's why I went through med school. But for me it was the sheer application and I'm a bit more of an introvert to be honest. My husband's very much an extrovert.

Right.

He's very much BDM, loves. But for me it's behind the scenes, the work that I do creating and just seeing that sheer joy of people when we create that scent or the packaging, the design, whatever it may be. So for me, the journey, we knew that, having done so many years of university, how do we come full circle? How do we take this business that is very much creativity and manufacturing? Mind you, when we first started, oh, you're a candle maker, that's how you were referred to. And sometimes you kind of look at yourself and go, shit, I've done so many— sorry, I've done so many years of university to be called a candle maker. But now it's a very different, it's how you see things. And so we've come full circle and like, how do we apply science into it? How do we apply the knowledge that we have and utilize it? And I think we can all do that, whatever trajectory we take in life. Something that you've done many, many years ago can be utilized in a completely different way. So I'm definitely grateful for the knowledge that I have.

Yeah, that's an interesting, um, point you make there around sort of the, I don't know, social sort of status. Yes. But, but also, um, I guess selling candles, your path to market was that sort of through the living room, a relationship type selling?

Yes, yeah.

So maybe if you could just add some flavor to why things like essential oils and it sounds like candles in your case are effectively sold through that sort of a way to market.

Yeah, I think, so when I started marketing, oh my, when I told my parents that I was leaving what was a pretty lucrative career to step into candle making, they weren't very best pleased. But it started, like I said, the business started on a benchtop, but I think the business took off and marketed really well when we explained to customers that this scent here, for example, cucumber basil is a real cleanser. It's, so if you've got really kind of potent cooking, which we do, then, and if you have this kind of palate cleansing smell post, it starts to create a beautiful smell. Or if you're in the bathroom, it's more citrus, you've got these smells. And because we explained it to our customers, they loved that, they loved hearing it. And I think, and that's the thing, because we still haven't, aren't able to press a button on our phones and smell something just yet, don't know what the future holds, but smell is very much an in-person interaction. And also, so you often, so we work a lot with wholesale. So with Light and Glow, we've got our online consumers and brand loyalists, But we also have— we do B2B, so we work with a lot of retailers across Australia who stock our products. And, um, so people go in to smell the product, um, view the product, and then purchase.

Yeah.

So yeah.

Oh, fancy. So you're sort of experiencing it and then realizing the value and then the exchange.

And then there's word of mouth. Word of mouth, we sometimes, um, don't talk a lot about. For us, word of mouth has been extremely powerful. So, um, people say, I bought this. And it's funny, I actually, my neighbor got a gift and came in and said, hey, look what I got as a gift from my friends who've just come back from Uluru, was our candle. They had gone to Uluru and then come back to Point Cook. So when you hear those stories and just the feedback that you get, it makes it all worthwhile.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Cool. Last short answer question. Is there a book or, sort of a study of content that you'd recommend people reading?

Yes, there's actually 3 books that I absolutely love. Atomic Habits by James Clear. It's those small little changes that you make that have a big— 'cause if you sit there and say, I'm gonna do all of it, it becomes overwhelming. And as humans, you kind of go, no, I'm not gonna touch it. Whereas if you small little changes, I think it's a great book to read. Feel the Fear and Do It Anyway by Susan Jeffers. That is something that I read when I started this business. And that goes back to, you know, the lessons I wish I knew growing up. And then there's one other book that I came, Infectious Generosity by Chris Anderson, that feeds into our social impact that we want to have as a business. So 3 books there.

Thank you. 3 for 1. I really like that. My job is, yeah. We'll get some links to that up on the site so people can click through and find their way to those, those books. But thank you for sharing them.

That's okay.

Now we're gonna move into rapid fire. So I'm basically gonna fire as many questions at you to tap into your subconscious as we can in 60 seconds. So ready to roll?

Sure.

Okay. Single note scents or complex blends?

Single note scents.

Wellness scents or energizing scents?

Wellness.

Physical or online?

Physical.

Floral or citrus?

Citrus.

Shark Tank or traditional marketing?

Shark Tank.

Brainstorming or structured planning?

Structured planning.

Startup culture or corporate environment?

Startup culture.

Failure or slow perfection?

Failure.

Sorry, that should have been fast failure, but good. Risk-taking or risk management?

Risk-taking.

Manufacturing local or global?

Local.

Shopfront or online? Oh, I think I did that, sorry. Cash flow or profit?

Cash flow.

Frankincense or black spruce?

Oh, frankincense.

Essential oils or candles?

Essential oils.

Co-create, create?

Co-create.

Personal preference, group preference?

Group preference.

Nice. Oh, fantastic. Well, thank you for coming on the show.

Yeah, thank you for having me, Dave.

Maybe just in closing, You know, anything you want to sort of leave the listeners with, um, you know, based on our conversation today? If they're looking to get into, um, I guess explore the sensory part of their brand or their personal image or their brand, their company image, where would they start? And I mean, maybe even where could they find you?

Yeah, sure. So the scent marketing agency is called Brand Scent. So we've got an online website, uh, we've got an Instagram page and on LinkedIn too. But I think really look at your brand closely and see how you can utilize scent marketing and the touchpoints that your clients have. So we'd love to chat and yeah, talk about how we can, you know, you can utilize scent, but really look at your, how you're marketing to your client. Is it very traditional or are you stepping outside the box and trying something new? Because this is definitely new.

Well, it sounds like a challenge to our listenership. So yeah, thank you again for your time today. Really appreciate the open, candid conversations and being, I think you said infectiously generous, generous in sharing your experiences.

Oh, thank you.

Thank you again.

Yeah, no, love it. Thanks, Dave.