Good To Great: Dionne Higgins on Steering Business Evolution and Organizational Growth

I am genuinely excited and worried about this sort of next big industrial revolution with AI, and so I do want to play a positive part in helping people and organisations to adapt to this new reality and think about it quite deeply. I was in newspapers at the time of the dot-com bubble. It actually became a matter of survival. That was a pivotal moment where actually you started to see the business model completely shift. And it started to move away. Couldn't no longer just rely on broadsheet advertising.

If you could mentor your younger self, what advice would you give?

Hi, welcome to the show. Today we've got Dion Higgins joining us and having a chat. Dion's the former SVP Strategy and Ops at RMIT University and also the former COO at Earsens International. So Alex, what's she talking to us about today?

Well, I think we're talking today about a human-centric approach to system design thinking, identifying strategy, and creating an environment for transformational change.

Dion Higgins, welcome to The Mentor List. Thank you for coming into the studio today. I'm really looking forward to having a conversation today, and the first question's around leadership And just maybe if you could share with listeners a little bit about how your leadership style has sort of developed.

Yeah, thanks, Dave. And it's great to be here with you and Alex. Look, I think that my leadership style has probably evolved over my life into a— probably with more courage, I would say. In a word, I would have to say it's authentic. So I don't know how to be anyone other than who I am when I turn up to work, and I try to create a culture that allows other people to be that too. I think that, you know, I really do think that probably I do take a very human-centric approach to how I work in any organisation. So, you know, it doesn't begin and end with the people, but I think that the people absolutely critical to driving the culture and driving the success of any organisation.

Yeah.

So whilst I might take more of a system design thinking approach, so I think probably what's natural to me is to look at the whole of an organisation, look into the complexity of it, and think about how you put together the components of that. people, systems, processes, at the very centre of that is actually how you organise people and actually how you motivate them and align them and connect them to do amazing things.

And just sort of, you know, we're talking about, you know, what we're going to talk about before today, and you're sort of sharing some of the examples about, which is sort of across different geographies and areas, but there There was sort of this consistent theme about sort of coming into a business and there's a need for change and then sort of this rallying. And maybe if you could talk about what it is that you sort of look for and maybe if you've got an example to share around sort of some of those transformations that you've been involved in.

Yeah, I think actually, to be honest, I can't actually think of a time when I was in a role that there wasn't some sort of transformational element to it. And it's probably not because I was asked to come in and do transformation, but I can't help but look at where there's opportunities and things that needed to be fixed or there's opportunities that are not being realized.

Yeah.

One very early example was when I was working in London. I was at the Financial Times. I was hired in to do a small process improvement job off the back of backpacking around Europe as all good Aussies do. I took a 6-week gig to fix something, and then I sort of became known as the person to fix a process. And eventually I was asked to step into a role running the group credit management, which wasn't actually— I'm a chartered accountant by trade, so that was my formal qualifications. It's not a natural path to kind of step into sort of accounts receivable. And why would, you know, that's not a natural sort of career path. But at the time, why it was interesting was because cash conversion was one of the 3 KPIs for the FT. So it was top line growth, it was EBITDA, and it was cash. And the problem to be solved there was actually how to light up the organization to understand. It wasn't a concept that people really understood in a collective sense. of what they could do to impact that.

Right.

And so what I did was align not just my teams, but also the advertising and the sales teams around a mission to get cash in faster from our advertisers, for instance. So we built a great big wall that had a big thermometer. And so really understanding what it would be to sort of drive performance. Now I was just a junior burger, But I was able to step out from the role that I was just given to try and align around the organisational ambition. And that was the first year we had achieved that target. So it was just, it was about sort of working out what was the problem to be solved and aligning people around it and connecting people that wouldn't necessarily work together in a normal sense. That's a small example.

Is that sort of, Thinking about the FT and then there was a huge shift in business model for not just FT but all sort of printed news. Was this in preparation for that or was that model shift happening? Or maybe if you could share a little bit about that.

So it's interesting, this will date me because I was in newspapers at the time of the dot-com bubble. So really the emergence of the internet and sort of the thinking of what we now just completely understand is a 24-hour news cycle. So I was there in the days of the broadsheets. And it's interesting actually looking back in hindsight to think about that moment because it's very— it's not going to be dissimilar actually to what I see, I think, potentially with the disruption that's about to come with some of the AI in the business.

Yeah.

It was a very, very successful business model. The Financial Times was incredibly profitable, but they could see that there was a shift and there was an opportunity with online. And so it had sort of created a business off to the side, FT.com, and ran it quite separately. That was sort of the sexy innovative part. Part of the cash conversion, of course, was about actually bringing more profit and more cash in to fund that disruptor. off to the side. But the interesting thing was at that point it was incredibly profitable. We're the big ship. And so it was difficult to drive change and bring along hearts and minds when people couldn't yet see the possibility. There's a lot of organizational resistance to it. There was a lot of, well, we're the profit makers and you're just the guys over there with the cool stuff and the balloons and burning cash. It wasn't really until I was in New York by this time as the finance director for the Americas. But it was actually at the time of the dot-com bust, to be honest. So this is— and it was also the time of September 11th. So 9/11, I was in New York for at the time.

Wow.

And what had happened was the core business went from— so all the newspaper advertising pretty much went went away very quickly. There was, you know, we went into, you know, a deep recession very, very fast. And the business went from being incredibly profitable to unprofitable overnight.

Yeah.

And that's when I found that the innovation and the acceleration to bring those 2 worlds together happened faster because you got to that kind of— it was no longer something that was an intellectual exercise and it might happen or it would happen, but it actually became a matter of survival. So they were— that was a pivotal moment where actually you started to see the business model completely shift and it started to move away. Couldn't no longer just rely on broadsheet advertising. It had to— we really had to accelerate subscription-based models. We had to think about what was the core parts of the business, such as the editorial newsroom and the 24-hour cycle.

Mm-hmm.

Being a more cohesive unit coming together and think about what would it take for actually that to become one business.

So was 9/11 a catalyst or did that—

It was the things that happened at the same time, I think. So it was, I guess it was a matter of a number of shocks that happened, sort of felt like quite simultaneously. Yeah.

Feels a little like déjà vu in terms of when we start talking about your experience at RMIT and working through COVID is sort of the accelerator.

It totally is. So, you know, I think about, you know, interestingly, it was a little bit the same when later I went to the Penguin Group. So the Pearson Group was where— who I first started with at the Financial Times. They owned a number of assets. So the Financial Times, they owned Penguin Books, and they owned the Pearson Education publishing group. But it was a little bit the same when I came back to Australia. So in 2004, um, we came— I came back to Australia and there was a— Penguin was just the darling of the book publishing industry. There was authors getting, you know, 6-figure advances. You know, we were protected by the lack of parallel importation, so it was quite a protected industry. But what the disruption that was coming, of course, was Amazon, and it was the collapse of the sort of high street. So you started to see Borders and what, you know, that collapsed. Again, that was an organisation that was incredibly successful and incredibly profitable that knew it needed to change, but there were so many damn offsites and convincing people to change, but without the urgency. It wasn't really until that major disruption happen. Now, the good news in both cases is that both of those things were being worked upon, but probably not to the pace that they needed to be. And I think that's probably the lesson I keep seeing and learning in organisations in which I've worked, which are often not— you know, I sometimes lust for the startup that starts with a blank sheet. I seem to always be in organisations that are— Older and successful organisations that are having to rapidly transform themselves under a different context.

Yeah, turning the ship around obviously takes a lot more effort than—

And great storytelling and the case for change and aligning people behind it and convincing them that it's the right thing to do to disrupt themselves when they're feeling quite comfortable, I guess, in their success.

Well, maybe that's sort of a good question, if you don't mind me asking, sort of tips for our listeners, I suppose. But obviously you've had to undergo this process a couple of times. Like, how do you align staff and refocus them on, you know, a new problem or a new threat? And how do you bring people along that journey?

Yeah, I do. I think that one thing that I've learned over the time, and I've been so fortunate actually that I've been, I've been the receiver of some great leadership programs and at different points, work from Stephen Covey and then work from different coaching programs. But the one thing I think that I probably have taken with me and continue to evolve in my own leadership practice is really aligning your team very early on. And that doesn't necessarily just mean the team that works for you. It's actually around the mission. It's probably, you know, it's thinking about what is the mission that you're trying to solve for? And that might not just be your team, but it might be, you know, peripheral, you know, even back to the example I talked about at the Financial Times. Like what was it? What was the job to be done? What were you trying to solve? So I would always naturally not necessarily look to organizational hierarchy or structures, but bring people together around a mission. And also probably be quite deliberate in how I— I hate the word onboarding, but there is a part of it which is about inducting them into the problem solving and co-creating around the resolution, what could be the possibilities of achieving that mission together. So aligning them around the mission. And then thinking about I probably take, I don't necessarily just say, you know, Dave, you are from finance, so that's your job. I would actually look at the people that I'm bringing together to solve for the problem and think about best people for the best job. So deliberately designed to sort of cross-pollinate a bit.

Right.

And get them in the work together. And I think in doing that, you actually break down organizational silos and you bring real humans into the room. So you move part— I really, one of the things I just, just in my, at my core, I cannot stand in organization is the othering. You know, the invisible are there from sales, or therefore everyone has a role to play. And so I think that in, in doing that, aligning around the work of the core mission and co-creating in that right up front, that sort of stuff starts to seep away. And I'm very deliberate about reinforcing those sort of behaviors as well.

So I think you've touched on it, but I guess what traits would you look for in your team?

Diversity is Great. And so I don't want a lot of homogeneous people, but I do expect, you know, like me, an authenticity. So, you know, sort of be brave, have courage. What else would I look for? Optimism, generally. I just— the people who will say you can't do it because, you can't do it because, without actually thinking about how you could do it. I think they're probably some of the hardest people I find to work with. I need to have a solutions-orientated mindset. And generally people who can have fun. You know, you can't take yourself too seriously. People who sort of hold themselves, you know, with such regard and their perception of other people, I think it stops them from probably realizing their own potential and the potential that you can have. have by being more vulnerable and, you know, and, you know, having a crack and making mistakes. That's, you know. Yeah, that's—

yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I think we spoke about this before the podcast. Sorry, David, you're going to jump in there. But yeah, it's sort of creating that sense of team, but also that environment where people can sort of make mistakes and have a crack.

Yeah.

So that's very, very important. How do you go about sort of creating that space for people?

Well, again, I think it's visible leadership, right? So I think for me it's being in the work with them, not being the loudest voice, in the room. It's really important. The best ideas don't come from, you know, necessarily from the leaders. It's actually about creating that environment where good ideas can percolate, but also discourse can happen. So I'm a very big believer in creating the environment, actually programming it in for where discourse can happen in a safe way, because you've got to be able to spark ideas off each other.

Yeah.

So, and that doesn't have to, that shouldn't feel unusual, but it's about you're working the problem, not the person. So you never play the person.

Right.

Then, yeah. So then, you know, it's about visibly just showing up, being in the work and also, but also not crowding the work, to be honest. You've got to step away as well. And you really do need to let, you know, bring together teams to go solve problems and bring it back in and sort of have that sort of 3, that sort of 360 kind of feedback loop that happens and show the work.

Yeah, I just had a question. You were mentioning sort of slow burn versus almost the burning platform sort of, and the difference between both. And just knowing your sort of rich background in these very big operational roles and then the ability to then execute, is there a, can you sort of share maybe some of your experience and perspectives around, were you able to respond so fast, for example, at RMIT around the response to COVID or in Penguin? Did you have these scenarios already laid out as sort of when you're up against the inertia of the slow burn and there's no pressure to change and you are there scoped to maybe transform a business and take that focus? Then there's a catalyst. Like, do you have that stuff in the back?

Like, here we go.

Is it ready to go or is it just co-created?

I think it's actually about having it. So this goes back to why culture, why I say culture, to be honest. So it's actually having that culture of that adaptive. So it's not change is happening to us or there's a crisis coming. We're always adapting. So we're always looking for the opportunity and there's kind of a, There's a disciplined practice around that. I would always be picking off one or two things that you're looking to adapt or improve. It might be a global supply chain. That was a big project when I was at Pearson. That was really important. For COVID though, specifically to that one, I actually, I would attribute two things of why we were so ready for that one. The first one was, and I guess it doesn't, you know, it's not just COVID, it's actually about understanding where have you got capability gaps in the organization.

Yeah.

If you imagine what the future might be, is your organization ready to adapt to that? And so I guess part of what I intuitively do when I step into an organization is I assess where the capability is at and I look to the strategy and I think, gosh, Where are we coming up short? Now, the first thing that struck me at RMIT was actually around crisis management, and it probably wasn't even called that. We had a, you know, sadly, we had a student suicide. And when I realised that I was the person accountable for bringing together this complex organisation around—

Hmm.

deep care and respect and appropriately dealing with that situation with family and not letting information come out, think about holistically around the student community, thinking about how we would do all the necessary things associated with that. I looked to the playbook and there really wasn't one, and there was actually no natural way to even get to the right person in the organisation or the number of right people to organise around that thing.

All right.

So that was a real wake-up call when I first realized that I had that accountability, that I actually looked at the complexity of what it was to run a 100,000-people business across multiple geographies that is doing everything from welding in a, you know, in a VE course to homestays for international students to, you know, crazy kind of experiments that could be happening in a lab or drones, that actually what you were running was a city. And anything that can happen in a city could happen here. So it was never going to be appropriate to have a kind of cottage industry red book that was sitting in some auditor's top drawer that never got picked up or was made. So it was actually an organisational capability that really needed to be developed.

Yeah.

And so way before COVID, we, and to my boss's credit, Martin Bean, who many will know on this cast, he absolutely could see it too. That's why he put me at it. And he allowed me to invest in the capability buildup. So we trained people, we built our own playbook, we were on, we tested it, we constantly used it actually. And it wasn't just my people, it actually connected the whole organization. Whatever it would be, it would be a flood in a room or it would be a, you know, Yeah, I can't even— I won't go through a bunch of the things that— there's so many things that you could imagine. And we would be, you know, I'd sometimes come to work and I'd have a TV crew and I didn't even know that we're just ready to, to just make me practice, you know, speaking to the media, etc.

That's pretty full-on, actually.

It was. But what that meant though is we was constantly— it wasn't just about reacting, it was also about scanning the environment. So When it came to COVID, actually, we were used to scanning for risk and for a change in the environment. And we picked up very early that we were having some difficulty getting some of our Chinese students to come and start our English language courses back in January. And so I was quite alert to what was happening over there, and I just had a bad feeling. And so I rang a few of the people on the crisis sort of team and said, this doesn't feel right. And we actually pulled everyone together in a war room on the 25th of January in the long weekend. And we never left that room.

Because that was the Chinese New Year in Melbourne before it basically—

That's right.

And that was the goal.

And that just, and that changed. We didn't know what it was going to become, but then we started to map out all the major events and then started to think, well, what did it mean? How does it mean to rewire the university? Oh my goodness, we've got over 4,000 courses that we need to take online. No one, even to the point that I think before that point, there was no way There was no mechanism where you would communicate with all the deans of each of the colleges in one way. Information went up and down the organisation, not information out at all at the same time. Oh, of course. So that really started to think about just how information needed to flow to do, to take on such a big transformation. And gosh, it was, you know, we were making it up as we went along, but also we stuck to a couple of core principles that always stayed up on our board. And it was so, It was health and safety first of our, of our people. It was helping students to progress as quick— as much as we could. And the other thing that had happened was also prior to that, that's not a crisis, but also the other thing I noticed when I stepped into RMIT, it was like this wildly and unbelievably wonderful strategy, so ambitious, but not a capability to deliver against it because they're so— universities are such complex places and there's so many stakeholders and so many ways to get the job done, it's very hard to make choices. So we'd been on this sort of journey of creating a way to execute against the strategy in an annual quarterly. I'd been sort of building a practice of getting to quarterly planning cycles that built into, and that had been an ongoing capability. And that wasn't just like my operations team, that was working out with all the leaders, the professional leaders across the university into each of the schools and the colleges, and also with bringing on board some of the academics as well to work with us. So we'd had this sort of more connected way of working that had started to break down some of those innate barriers.

You mentioned it before, you're sort of creating this environment for this Cross-pollination.

Yeah.

Yeah, what's your sort of thinking? How do you actually do that? And what do you sort of look for to know that it might be working or it might be not working as well as you wanted to? How do you sort of foster that environment?

Yeah, and I do, I mean, look, and you don't ever do something like this and not make mistakes. So I'll just start with that. There is no silver bullet to this stuff. I think that, I guess it's because I'm naturally a systems thinker first. So I go to cause and effect and like, if I don't address this thing, why, you know, that thing's not gonna happen. So there's just a natural way that if I look at the strategy and what needs to be achieved, I can't do it in isolation with one group. So generally I'll be naturally looking at the whole organisation.

Yeah.

But to your point about it doesn't always work, right? Just because that's what the organisation want, you don't necessarily, it doesn't mean that it's gonna work. Like it really doesn't. So you kind of need to meet people where they are and you need to work out the thing that's going to have the biggest impact. So choices and focus is really, really important. And so I'm a firm believer of sort of testing things quite early and incubating things, you know, and starting to get some runs on the board and also equally being okay to say, actually, that's not gonna work and keep adapting. So yeah, so it is a little bit organic. And I have been, you know, definitely can say that some of my, you know, my learning over the years has been where I have just been so committed. It's been so clear to me about this is the course to go and I haven't been listening enough. Right.

Yeah. And do you think obviously big differences, maybe if we take your American experience or maybe British a little less, but the American style of leadership versus, you know, what you would have experienced in RMIT with so many different factions of power and this collaborative sort of thing. Maybe was that—

And corporate versus university is so different. So I think that was the biggest thing. I was like a very slow study on universities when I think about it. I, you know, when you're in a corporate, you align to the organization and whether you like it or not, you know, that you're employed by the organization.

Yeah, yeah.

When you're in a university, you don't necessarily align to the organisation. You align to your tribe, to your discipline, to your practice. So that is a very different way of actually having to understand how to motivate people to work together. And why now? Don't get me wrong, actually academics are incredible collaborators. They come up with great research and innovation all the time, but it's around the things that they desire to do to come together.

Right.

They're not necessarily desiring to do the thing to come together to make the university is sustainable, that's a level of thinking that they're not that interested in. They just like that to be done. So that was very, very different. And the US is very, very— each culture I've worked in, the Brits of course are passive, they say very nice things but might mean something else. The Americans are very, very direct. I'll never forget my first time going into my boss and the the fist bump, which I'd never encountered a fist bump before in my life. And I gave his hand a little pat. I mean, each culture is different. And working, gosh, working in Hong Kong. So I was in Asia for a while, for 4 years before I came back to RMIT and did a lot of work there. I had a very international role. So I was based in Hong Kong and Hong Kong's a fairly easy in for an expat. Pat, but I did a lot of work in China and in mainland China. I did a lot of work in Brazil and in India and in South Africa. And as you step into each of those cultures, you have to appreciate, you can't just take your one sort of, and particularly, you know, an Aussie bombastic kind of leadership style and think that you're going to, you know, have the hubris to think that you're going, that you know better or you're gonna— bring people to your way of thinking. You've got to actually meet them where they are.

Hey everyone, thanks so much for tuning in. If you're loving this podcast, please give us a 5-star review. So how did you go about sort of maintaining your sort of status and I guess gravitas, but also sort of understanding more about a culture or a particular way or industry in those different cultures?

Yeah, I mean, because you can't— I mean, I'm quite— I was quite often going in to do a big integration or to build a team or to You know, I don't think in any of those situations have I gone into a role that was someone else's role and I was just taking it on. It was always a new role. So you're building a team and you're trying to build alignment and win trust and convince people of the way to go.

Sure.

So, you know, and I very often was, I, you know, it was a bit scary. I was a fish out of water quite often. These were not necessarily my people. I didn't have a lot of trusted people around me, so I had to actually win that every single time. So I just treat people like humans, to be honest. I start to go in and make the connection. I've found that wherever you go in the world, that people are still mums and dads and they're someone's daughters and they're someone's friend. And actually, the human characteristics are very similar.

Mm.

And they're all there to work. The point is listen first and don't lose yourself. So that kind of sense of gravitas. So I try to be— I try to hold myself centered without being arrogant, you know.

Yes.

And I think somehow you've got to be humble at the same time but also centered, which is You know, it's a tricky thing to do because your natural thing is to try and make yourself fuller and put up your guard. But yeah, actually I try to stay as open as I can and just learn as much as I can.

Yeah, well, I guess beyond that as well, you're sort of— there's also pressure to be delivering, whereas actually you sort of— you're in the information gathering stage.

So yeah, absolutely. So, but that's, that's the thing though, you can't stay in information gathering forever, but you, you can sure as hell guarantee if you don't do information gathering and you don't understand the context in which you're sitting, you're not going to be successful. So it is a good investment of time because you'll execute twice as fast if you align the team around you. Yeah. So I never, it might feel a little bit slow at the beginning, but it always pays off. Yeah.

And looking back down, you've always managed to get some pretty quick traction in these big operational roles. Is there a sort of playbook? I know you mentioned there's no crisis management book, Is there one you've sort of developed that you sort of—

Well, I think it's this guy that I was— so one of the people I worked with is this guy by the name of George Bratt. And he's got a number of books actually. And one of them's, I think, the 100-day, the Leader's 100-Day Plan or something, I think. But basically it's a plan on a page that you can take a team through. to accelerate impact. So it really is, it's a bit of a framework. It's a bit of a dry read, to be honest. Sorry, George. But what I like about it, because I'm a pretty intuitive kind of leader, Yeah. I always like to work within frameworks and structures to actually put some sort of, some boundaries around what I do and sort of some structure around what I do. So that way, that is really, it's a pretty structured process of actually how you understand, how you align the team, how you move fast through through execution and it really accelerates the execution part. And that's why I think it's, I'm a big believer of sort of the 2-day offsite or whatever, really getting the team to really, really focus on what the mission is and build that trust with each other and get really clear about what we're trying to achieve together and whose role is it going to be to do what and actually setting the deliverables. So I think it's really important in those sort of, it's not just a 2-day love-in to have a love-in. Yeah, I really believe you do it within the work. So you kind of have that, you make the contract when you're there about what you're going to achieve and you actually, you agree that together about what does success look like over what horizons and then you sort of hold yourself and then you've got a basis to then kind of, you've got your 100-day plan, right? To build momentum.

Right, that everybody's signed up for.

They've signed up for it. They did it. I didn't do it to them.

You're aligned.

Yeah. So in that sort of scenario—

You can also select out your people in that time too.

Right. Yeah.

And not that it keeps us longer.

You learn a lot in those moments.

Do you ever worry that, and I've always wondered this, as sort of the senior leader in the group you're bringing or you're with your peers or whatever it is, do you ever worry that it's going to get facilitated into this 100-day plan that maybe you didn't want? Or is it already sort of like, I don't know, because you do run obviously the risk everybody's got to buy into the next 100 days? Or is that just down to pure being sort of ready for the day and sort of how to operate it and move?

What do you mean that you got the 100-day plan wrong altogether or that it just morphs into some sort of Frankenstein thing? That's a terrible question.

More like, so if you've got your 2-day offsite, you're fairly new into the role in that sort of scenario. So you're still sort of finding your feet and how do you get that clarity about, yep, this is the way, or do you already have that purpose and strategy built in? And so that's sort of the anchoring.

Well, I think part of it is always you build a team. So there's a team alignment piece as well. So you agree about what are going to be your practices as a team and what's acceptable and what's not going to be acceptable. So actually through that, you kind of can't, you know, part of that is actually a mutual contract that we're creating with each other about what performance looks like, I think. And so whatever the thing is, I think that, you know, and then a lot of that will, you know, that'll be around, you know, regular check-ins and progress and all of that. I'm not sure if I've understood the question.

Yeah, I think I asked a terrible question.

Right.

It sounds like, You sort of do have a little bit of, or you have a fairly clear idea about what you wanna get out of the session before you're going in. And so you're sort of moving already to—

Yeah, and look, it's not set and forget. It can adapt over time, right? It doesn't mean you won't have to revisit it, but actually that early stage, so it depends on where it is. I don't think it's the same every single time. So if it's a big transformation or a project and you're bringing people together for that purpose, it's quite clear there's a beginning and end, you know what you're doing, right?

Yeah.

If it's, I'm walking into an organization and I wanna align my leadership team around that, around sort of what are we sitting at? Well, maybe that is a, you can't do that in your first sort of thing. Maybe actually you've gotta take a few bites of that. It's about actually bringing the human and creating the trusted environment sort of at that first step. And then it's working on the strategy together. So you might begin to work on strategy together because you're looking at the whole organisation. But I do believe that there's definitely value in taking people outside of their independent work to align around actually your team perspective. Does that make sense?

It does make sense. I think my question maybe didn't make sense, but I appreciate your answer. And one other thing, because you're sort of talking about being a systems thinker and having a structured approach. And one thing you're probably known for is really developing that human character, that really deep connection with—

Yeah.

And, you know, you sort of talk about maybe if your upbringing maybe had an influence into that because we were talking before the show started. But maybe your sort of approach to developing relationships, because If I was to go and survey the people you've worked with and for, there would be a lot of camaraderie and mateship. And so it's not like you're, you know, torching and scorching the earth and moving to the next one. No, these are big transformations and things that weren't easy, but the relationships are still all intact. So love to know your thoughts on how you sort of create those long-lasting relationships.

Growing up in hospitality actually I learnt to study people. And it's really, you know, not only just, you know, how to— for them to show enjoyment and all that sort of stuff, but observing relationships and, you know, the good and the bad. And I think probably without knowing it, I became a study of people through that. And it's sort of just innate in me. And I'm interested. I generally am interested. I think It's interesting to think that I've been so lucky to have such an international career. And it wasn't actually until I was 27 and I took my first trip to London that I'd ever been outside of Australia.

Right.

And what I've naturally found is actually the thing that really drives me is I love different people and cultures and immersing in what makes them tick and what motivates them and And also what does and what hurts them as well.

Yeah.

Have you discovered that mostly just through experience or have you studied any psychology or anything else like that?

No, I haven't. I actually studied, I did a Bachelor of Business in Accounting, Alex. And as much as I love the numbers because they tell a story about an organization, actually the part of it that I really did love the most was probably the organizational design and human resources and psychology parts of that business degree. That was what I was most naturally drawn towards, not necessarily the accounting, the debits and credits, but I like them because it helps me to understand something.

So yeah, that's great how that's just sort of, that's been a theme throughout your life then, sort of pivoting towards that part of the business or the change.

Yeah, I mean, funnily enough, I actually was, maths and science was all I did in high school and I was going to become a physiotherapist but stuffed up my English exam. So there you go, here we are. I'm not running my physiotherapy practice anywhere.

It's not too late.

No, I'd have to pay someone else.

And would it have taken you to New York, London, Hong Kong?

No, exactly. Who knew?

It's amazing.

Who knew?

Yeah. So, yeah, next question. You mentioned when you were in 9/11, your boss stepped out for a minute and never came back. So that's probably another scenario of just sort of being thrown in there. But what's next for you? What are you sort of throwing yourself into? Because we're sort of talking like, I mean, it's obviously a huge career. Yeah, sort of mid— we've caught you sort of mid-break, and so it'd be great to sort of get your perspective around, you know, how do you step out of such a big role and then sort of start looking into and facing into opportunities? What are you batting away? Is it hard getting clear? There's about 40 questions in there, Jo.

Sure. I mean, it's been such a— this has been such a I'm so grateful for this year that I've never had such a big break in my career ever, actually. I've gone from one thing to the next and I've had these big, big, big roles and I haven't probably had the discipline of reflection that this year has afforded me. And I was, to be honest, I was knackered after I finished at RMIT. I was pretty tired. It was pretty big leading through COVID, interim vice chancellor, cyberattack.

Cyberattack, yeah.

You know, massive ERP and the biggest back office transformation sort of in the, you know, just Such huge things. And I knew I was pretty tired, so it was a good time to step out. And I thought, well, that's it, you know, that's good. And that, you know, I've done enough transformation now, tick that box. But actually, as I found that my energy's come back, I know, like, I'm like, oh, you know, I want to take the, you know, the accumulation of this experience to do, to do it better, to do it smarter.

Yeah.

But I still, I do, you know, I'm drawn to a complex problem. I'm drawn to, an organization that is at the precipice of needing to change and needing to align its people behind it. And I do deeply feel like, I mean, I am genuinely excited and worried about this sort of next big industrial revolution with AI. And so I do wanna play a positive part in helping people and organizations to adapt to this new reality and think about it quite deeply. I do care about actually creating a better world and thinking about actually how technology can drive environmental sustainability in ways that it could be revolutionary. And I do care about the breakthroughs that are going to happen in health. My challenge is people say, which sector? And I'm like, well, actually, give me a big problem and give me some great people. And I'd love to have a crack at that. Fantastic.

That's amazing. Definitely not business as usual.

No, I wish. You know, I try. I thought it could be.

Diana, I just had another question which sort of brought into the room, which was— and we had James Fazzino recently on a live online session, and he's sort of chairing the Champions of Change here in Melbourne. And something that he said which I wanted to ask you about was about whilst the, you know, numbers of gender diversity, female-specific leaders are getting better at the headline. What he's probably not seeing in the alarming stat is there's not an increase, but actually a decrease in these bigger operational roles, which are really the line roles, which tend to move into the MD, CEO type roles traditionally.

Yeah.

But you've had a lot of very big operational roles. So I mean, is there a Any inspiration, advice, or was it luck? Was it planned? How did you sort of find your way into these roles, which statistically aren't the norm? Not aren't the norm, but yeah, we're not seeing that sort of representation.

I wouldn't say that it was planned and like I saw this big— it just felt natural to me because it was about sort of stepping in to solve big problems or to And I'm naturally inclined to wanna look towards growth. So where the opportunities are, so whether that is driving a revenue stream or thinking about new product lines. So I was fortunate that I have had some incredible mentors and bosses along the way.

Yeah.

And I think that probably what I would say to women, and that is definitely true that I didn't, people, I was being tapped on the shoulder to take a bigger role before I felt that I was ready or felt that I had given myself permission that I was good enough to do it.

Yep.

So it was quite often, and it was quite often men, I've gotta say, you know, that would be the ones to say, go for that role, you know, have a seat at the table. I wanna hear your views on marketing. So that mentorship piece is really, really important. And I try to do as much of it as I can. I try, you know, I don't— I really do try to. And I think creating that sort of space where you can speak up and sort of think beyond your exact, you know, I think probably my breakthrough moment was, you know, realising a boss, John Markham, when I was at the FT, you know, asking me not just to be the finance person, but actually to give a view on the on the marketing and the sales side of the business. So yeah, so I feel like that was that moment where I was given permission to speak and realize that I could outside of my role was probably the beginning for me.

Great. Thank you so much for sharing.

Yeah. And if, I guess, again, advice to our listeners, if someone doesn't have a mentor in an organization, how should she go about finding one?

Well—

What should she look for?

Well, what should they look for? Look, I think that people are getting better at finding them. So how should you go about finding them? I mean, I think just ask, like look at— look to people that inspire you and reach out. People generally wanna help you. So I've mentored a number of people formally and informally, and generally they, you know, I'll be happy to give my time, but be ready also with what is the problem that you're trying to solve as well, and make sure that you make it easy for them to sort of draw that out.

Yeah.

So really think about, you know, how you best use their time when you do.

Yeah, that's good advice. Thank you.

Yeah.

And then, yeah, I do recall sort of we did, I can't remember what we were chatting about, but we connected and you were just about to give the, is it the valedictory speech to the graduates for that graduating year? I mean, that must be sort of one of the highlights of a pretty demanding role.

Oh, you know, a life highlight, to be honest.

Yeah.

To think, you know, when we graduated sort of 20,000 students after 2 years of being in lockdown and, you know, the, the things that people won't see of just, you know, how, yeah, the ins and the, you know, how many people we could have. Could they take a parent? Was it going to be no parents? And we were constantly negotiating to try and get the, the capacity things. And we had, you know, different, you know, so many ways we had to organize together. But it was so important to get those students to have that moment where they were rewarded for their efforts because What incredible people, you know, these students that had what they'd endured during that time to have then, you know, kept at it and, you know, got all the way to the end where they were graduating. It was just the most fulfilling feeling to be part of their success and their family's success to get them to that moment. So that felt like, you know, it was just wonderful. It's like best— I said to my husband, you know, I used to say my wedding day was the best day. Well, this is like the best day of my life. Like nothing wouldn't have mattered what— and things went wrong and it didn't like— you couldn't have wiped the smile off my face.

It was just—

Oh, that's beautiful. So wonderful.

Yeah.

And I'm not— I mean, I know you're going to ask in the short answer soon, Alex, but like, was there 2 or 3 things that you like, you know, if you've got an audience of 20,000, was there something that you were trying to get across, like from your perspective to that audience?

Yeah. Look, I think there was one of them was just really about actually them acknowledging the journey that they'd been on. And so they like giving them the confidence that they had so much already in their toolkit to navigate all the uncertainty and the bravery that was about out there. It was really about like really like making them feel amazing, like what they'd achieved. So, and like deeply. Secondly, it was about lifting others up around you, not taking the credit for just what sort of human you wanna be.

Yeah.

You know, so giving credit, you know, it doesn't happen in a vacuum. There's lots of people that actually helped them to get to this point. And so it's great to acknowledge those that have been around them to support them.

I think there was 3, but I can't recall what the That second one certainly ties into your approach of creating that environment and lifting others around you. Alex, I might throw to you if you've got another question or to tip into your short answer form. Yeah, if you're happy.

So this next section is some, you know, a couple of short questions, but really please do expand. I think it's really fascinating to understand the why behind the answers.

Right, okay.

Yeah, we'll kick off with, do you have a favorite quote?

I have one, but it's way too long and it's probably so typical, but it is the man in the arena. I love it. So it's the Theodore Roosevelt quote. So look it up if you haven't. I'm not going to recite it, but perhaps one, another one is Maya Angelou. So I think it's that people will not remember the things that you said and people will not remember the things that you did, but people will always remember the way that you made them feel. Yeah, that's a good one for me.

I think it's a lovely one.

Yeah, that just reinforces the leadership style again.

Exactly. Yeah, and even the man in the arena as well.

Oh, I love it.

That's fantastic.

Gotta get—

yeah, in terms of getting your hands dirty.

Yeah, have a crack, stand up again, blood and sweat, you know.

Don't be a critic, be a doer.

Yeah, that's right, exactly.

Fantastic. Um, what book would you say has had the biggest impact on you, either Professionally or personally?

I have to say, so earlier days it was the sort of stuff that I spoke about COVID and that sort of stuff. But I think the thing that probably in more recent times, which probably has validated my leadership style as Brené Brown, so Dare to Lead. Someone gave me that book and I probably couldn't have put a, if anything, I was sort of thinking, oh, it's such a female trait of the way that I lead. But actually they've put some science behind it that talked about actually what really courageous leadership looks like, what authentic leadership looks like, and actually put some real value to what can be achieved through it. So I feel like that for me was really great. And it also was a reflection of also knowing, and actually was a good practice as well to think about, when am I guarded? When am I not at my best? When am I creating the environment that's not allowing other people to be at their best? So it was good.

That's pretty useful. Yeah, and validating.

Yeah, yeah. And I like the thing about the correct, you know, the stuff around rumbling and conflict, because that's really important to innovation and to really drive performance as well. Absolutely. Yeah.

Do you have a passion or hobby that we might not guess?

I have a really dorky one.

That's what the question's for.

It is travel. It's all the stuff that I can say outwards, but do you want me to say the dorky one?

Absolutely. Yeah, we want to get to know you.

I am a tragic I'm a big mini golf person.

That's amazing.

Every time, whenever we go on holidays, we have to look for the mini golf.

I love it.

I don't know whether it's like the childhood thing of like always when you went to the beach, you went to the mini golf and that was a big day. That was the big, you know, exciting thing. But I just love it because it always means holidays.

So what's your favorite mini golf location? What's the most challenging course?

Oh, see, we're in Melbourne. So I've done Holy Moly. They serve cocktails. So I don't mind that. Actually, that's probably a good one.

Would you say it gets increasingly easy or increasingly difficult?

Yeah, it's always just fun. It doesn't actually— no, I do like to win it though.

That's brilliant. Yeah, ideas for the next offsite.

Well, there's one called What the Putt in Brunswick.

We've got to exchange tips then, Dave.

Here we go.

It's got like skeleton ones. It's like, and it's a whole full bar. It's a good adult bar.

I had a trip with my mum just recently. We went down to Meetong and my mum's not been well. And we like, I couldn't believe my 73-year-old mum who's got You know, only one leg she's been amputated, she decided that we were going to play mini golf down at Lakes Entrance, and we did. So it was a big victory moment.

Do you bring your own putter, or are you happy to rent?

No, no, I am happy to just accept, you know, the quality of what's there.

Okay, so next question, what's next on your bucket list?

Well, I mean, I said, you know, obviously I want to solve big problems, um, that, you know, and put my heart and soul in— into that again. I'd like to do it with more boundaries this time. So I actually— I think that my current self and my smarter self is probably what I— what I did last time was I was just so all in that probably to the detriment of other— of everything else. So I'd like to do it more about— have the absolute intensity of what I'm doing, but keep up the You know, the rest of the life stuff. So the great, you know, sleeping and exercise, you know, and there will always be travel on my bucket list, always. So that's always the first thing I ever use my discretionary money for. Excellent.

Yeah.

Where's the next destination?

I was so annoyed that I was supposed to go to Europe this year, but I think we're going, well, actually it's Noosa in September, but we're off to, I think, Italy and Croatia next year. Yeah.

Wow. Yeah, that's brilliant. So, Jane, if you could mentor your younger self— and you've touched on this a little bit— but if you could mentor your younger self, what advice would you give?

Um, I think it's probably to trust your instincts and back yourself sooner. So I think, you know, that point I was saying about Being a, you know, having a voice at the table, being, giving myself permission to speak beyond what I thought was my role structure or my hierarchical sort of stuff. So yeah, that I've usually got pretty good instincts and probably just back my judgment. Yeah.

Yeah, that's powerful. Thank you. I think they're my, my 5 questions, Dave.

Hey, didn't it? You didn't catch her off guard or anything, but we did find out about crazy golf. The, uh, yeah, putting. So we'll have to bring that into one of our events.

Oh, can we? Can I come? Yeah, definitely.

Do you have one of those, uh, sort of small office—

But now that I've put it out there, I'm going to be— if I'm terrible at it, you're just going to be— you're going to be judging me. So I just— I said it gave me joy.

All right, Alex, so I think it's time for, uh, a couple rapid-fire questions. I've got my stopwatch here ready to go and see if you can get a personal best today with Dionne.

Yeah, thanks. So again, it's just whatever comes first to your mind. Here we go. You ready?

All right, ready.

All right. Cats or dogs?

Dogs.

Netflix or YouTube?

Netflix.

Texts or phone calls?

Texts.

Beach or snow?

Beach.

New York or London?

New York.

Primary news source, TV or online?

Online.

Hong Kong or Melbourne?

Melbourne.

Strategy or culture?

Culture.

Proactive or reactive?

Proactive.

Publishing, dead or alive?

Oh, complicated.

Pink or white?

Pink.

Remote or on-site?

On-site.

I love— Home cooking or dining out?

Dining out.

Staycation or adventure?

Adventure.

Cash or card?

Card.

Still or sparkling?

Both.

Entrée or dessert?

Entrée.

TV or book?

TV. Hmm.

Candy or chocolate?

Candy.

City or country?

City.

Sleep-in or early riser?

I've taught myself to be an early riser.

Walk or run? Oh, there you go. You can answer that one.

Not a record.

No, that's good.

That's great.

Thanks, Deanne. I think you were running out of questions. That was your last question.

You did really well.

I hate pineapple on pizzas.

Yeah.

Off piece with the next one.

Yeah.

Deanne, thank you for your time today. Was there anything we didn't sort of get to that you thought, oh, actually I just had this perspective to share, or maybe just a closing remark from yourself if we have covered sort of most of the questions that you were pre-interviewed?

No, I think it's been, I mean, it was pretty comprehensive. So yeah, no, I think I'm I think I'm good. I think I've told you too much already.

Great.

Well, thank you for your time today. And yeah, on behalf of the listeners, really appreciate everything you've shared and being so generous with your experience and your past learnings. And yeah, thank you.

Yeah, thanks so much for sharing today. Thank you for coming. Hey, this is Alex. If you enjoyed the content so far and you want us to do more, if you want to hear more, click the subscribe button. It allows us to bring on more guests in the future. Thanks.