Leading Through Corporate Transformation with Former AGL CEO, Graeme Hunt

It was something that took me a long time to learn, that vulnerability was a good thing, not a bad thing. Rob Goffey wrote a book called Why Would Anyone Want to Be Led by You? And it, and it kind of delved into those issues around vulnerability being one of them.

Yeah.

And transparency and honesty. Most people were very happy to work for someone that they believed was genuine and was telling them how it is, whether it was good or bad news. And that was one of the most powerful aligning tools And they did a whole lot of empirical research on other things that we know what made leaders effective and what didn't.

Graeme Hunt, welcome to The Mentalist podcast.

Good morning, Dave. Great to be here.

Yeah, great to have you in and thanks for coming in. Looking forward to today's conversation and we might just sort of kick in. We've got a loose theme of leading from the front. So looking forward to experiencing or sort of exploring some of your lived experience and how maybe that leading from the front examples shone brightly through. And I can see it coming through in a few examples we're having in just the conversation before we got started and hit record. So, so, Graeme, maybe let's just sort of set the scene. Let's, to a point in your career, and then maybe we can sort of backtrack a little bit around how you've, how you've gotten into these positions or being nominated or forced in or parachuted into these scenarios. So you're the CEO of AGL. There's an individual or a group that's trying to buy one of Australia's biggest utility retailers and power delivery businesses. That sounds like a complex scenario. Why were you the right person or how did you find yourself in that role and If someone's listening in, what do I have to do like what Graeme did to then be able to be in such a scenario and position?

Yeah, well, I guess I'd say either you get lucky or you get unlucky depending on which way you look at it. Look, it's a complex story. I found myself as the CEO and managing director and I'd stood down from the chairman position. Now that's quite unusual, but not unheard of in certain circumstances. And in my view, this was one of those circumstances. And probably more importantly than that, in the view of the rest of the board, it was the right decision at the time. So to try to set the scene, AGL had embarked on a strategy that had been developed by the previous CEO and Managing Director, to demerge the company into 2 parts. One, the fossil fuel generating business centred around primarily coal-fired generation in New South Wales and Victoria and some gas-fired generation as well. And then the second part was going to be the renewables generation and the retail business. The reason for that was pretty clear business case that the company was being undervalued because of the fact that it had that mix of both traditional fossil fuel generation and green assets. And if it was split, then the green and retail business would've traded at a higher multiple.

Right.

And the fossil fuel business would've continue to have, be a tough business, but could have been managed through to the natural retirement of those—

So pretty traditional M&A tactic of taking a valuable asset and putting in a separate structure.

Yep, exactly. So one part of the business was an anchor on the rest, and if you separate it, you unlock some value and you allow 2 management teams to focus on 2 very different strategies and create more value for shareholders.

Yep.

So, you know, how did I end up as CEO? I was the chairman of the board that supported the then CEO's strategy to split the company. But just before we were kind of ready to formally launch, and I mean very just before, the CEO decided that he didn't really want to be the CEO of either of those 2 merged entities. And we were already locked and loaded and we had to make a decision which way forward. And the outcome was that someone had to step into the breach and lead the company through that demerger process.

Yep.

And my colleagues around the board table asked me to do it. And I had very deep operational experience and I'd had significant M&A transformational experience in the past. And so I stepped down from chair to CEO and managing director. Peter Bott and one of the other board members stepped into the vacant chair role and we moved forward to try to get the demerger away.

What sort of time period are we talking? Because that sounds like pretty significant title changes, role changes. Are we talking about a week or months?

No, look, it happened very quickly because As I said, we were kind of locked and loaded with ready to go to the market. And we reached the conclusion that it didn't make sense for the incumbent CEO and managing director to continue on being charged with a demerger that he'd let everyone, let us know that he really didn't want to be a part of. He believed in the strategy, but he didn't want to be in either of those organisations.

Yeah.

So it made more sense to hand the baton over. And so this was one of those things where there were board meetings very late into the night and decisions were made within hours and days, not weeks and months.

And so just sort of, I mean, with the theme of leading from the front, we're sort of talking about a long and rewarding career. And I would've probably labeled you as in your NED phase of your career. So maybe a portfolio of a couple of different things. And then I think if you're the last one back from the toilet and then it's on the table that you would be the best candidate from your board peers.

Yeah, I think it was all situational dependent. I think boards, if they've got a proper eye on succession, always like to put someone into a role that's going to be in the role for a significant period of time. But in certain circumstances when the proverbial hits the fan and you look around the room and you say, what are our options? Sometimes you've got to go kind of back to the future a little bit.

Yeah.

And put someone into a role that can hit the ground running and it's got the experience to deal with the challenges at the time. So I went into the role, I spent the best part of 2 years in it and then ultimately handed over the reins to Damian Nix, who's now the CEO. is doing a great job. Rightly or wrongly, the assessment of the board at that period of time was that Damian wasn't quite ready. And Damian had already been kind of anointed to be the CFO of one of the demerged entities. So to take him out of that and have him step up into the other role didn't make a lot of sense. So I was asked to do it. And as people have said to me along my career journey, sometimes I'm like a moth to a flame. I could see what needed to be done. It was going to be tough and I guess I was prepared to have a go. And I stepped in. It was a rocky journey. Didn't end particularly well in the end because of the fact that there was an activist investor that stepped in to stop the demerger.

Right.

And we had to pull the demerger strategy. And as a result of that, I stepped away.

Yep. Wow. Yeah, certainly are a moth to a flame. You couldn't think of a scenario that's more, just such a disruptive, I mean, even if you think your own career, you're into this NED phase and now bang, you're back into what's probably a 70-hour workweek CEO gig that's very demanding. Demerger plus BAU plus an active investor trying to you know, stop the demerger that's quite influential?

Well, I think, I think, I guess I've never been one for, you know, walking away from a challenge. But also I just find it much more rewarding to be, to be challenged and to be involved. You know, the concept of a a passive type NED portfolio of activities just kind of doesn't get me there.

Yeah.

I need some things where I can be intellectually stimulated and can see that I'm making a difference. And more and more as my career's gone on, making that difference has been also about helping up-and-comers leverage off the scars and the experience that I've got rather than have to suffer their own to learn.

Yep. And we've had you touring the country talking to, in our mastermind groups and sharing those, I was going to say sharing those wounds, but sharing those stories and experiences, which has been fantastic. Okay, so 4th generation steelworker, 17 out of school straight into work. Like, maybe let's just sort of follow some of these themes through because I think there's a bit of a leading from the front or moth to the flame, as you say, that's— I'd like to sort of tease out where that came from.

Yeah, look, you know, back in the day, and we're talking in the '70s, so it's a long time ago now, you know, starting with BHP as a trainee or a cadet, The model in those days was that you came straight out of high school, got a traineeship, started working, and the company gave you a day off a week to go to university. So it took you twice as long to get your qualifications, but you started earning money as you went. And it was at a time of pretty much full employment, not in many ways not greatly dissimilar to where we are today.

That's interesting.

And high inflation, actually much higher inflation than today. But that meant that companies were looking to bring people into their workforce early on. And it was an effective model because you started to learn kind of leadership and life skills alongside the academic stuff. So, you know, by the time that, you know, as a 17-year-old straight out of high school, you know, I was doing the, you know, kind of the maths one and engineering one at university during the day, but then I was working shift work and, you know, and pretty quickly got into a role where I had a very junior kind of leadership position on, you know, as an assistant shift foreman.

Yeah.

You know, trying to get guys who are old enough to be your grandfather to listen to you. And I'm sure they just sniggered and, you know, did what they wanted anyway. But it was an interesting learning experience.

Well, I mean, I imagine, you know, and then I'm skipping around a lot, but then back as, let's say, CEO of AGL going to site or something, you would have a greater appreciation for, I guess, who your workforce is and Yeah, maybe do you want to expand on that?

Yeah, look, very much so. I mean, I always feel like even in a boardroom position or as a CEO or a senior leader, that putting the safety boots on and the fluoro vest and the safety hat is a sign of an honest day's work, if you like, as opposed to sitting in a boardroom somewhere pontificating about the strategy of the company. So I think that that's helped me a lot really understand and relate to people across businesses. So I've always been very comfortable about standing up in the crib room, talking to people about very difficult things sometimes about why a business needs to downsize or why a plant needs to close or whatever. But lots of directors sometimes and senior managers are a bit uncomfortable doing that because they didn't have that grounding. And I think that was one of the great advantages of the system that existed at that point in time is, you know, you kind of, you know, you started at the shop floor and worked your way up literally.

Because I guess, I mean, starting into sort of manufacturing and thinking from the '70s where Australia's manufacturing was and where it's gone to now, certainly sort of an industry that, you know, generally speaking, very much in decline. And then you've got the booming resources sector. When everything is sort of moving and changing so much, is this a moth to the flame thing? Why did you end up sort of going through this path? Was it the challenge? Was it the struggle?

Well, I guess it was just a natural thing to do. As you said earlier, I mean, my father was a metallurgist in the steel industry. My grandfather was a crane driver in the steel plant. When I retired from BHP, I discovered that my great-grandfather had been involved as a labourer in the construction of the Newcastle Steelworks. And that model of traineeships where you could go to part-time university and earn a few bucks, and it was very few bucks at the time, was kind of attractive. And I guess I'd never really considered kind of almost putting the pressure on my parents to say, well, I actually want to go away to university and kind of study something that was going to cost money. Now, I was lucky again that it was at the time was the start of kind of free university education, although HECS started not long after that.

Yeah.

But it wasn't where it was before. So it just seemed like a natural thing to do. Yeah. And I don't think really I was that, I was probably fairly ignorant about what other options I had. It just seemed like something that I fell into. And a lot of kids did the same thing at that point in time.

Yeah. And it's, I mean, it's a different sort of progression into the workforce now. You've, you're sort of, let's say you're a 23-year-old and you're coming in and you've had your high school and you've had your university, but your experience of, like you mentioned, managing, being a foreman on site, managing people that have been there and are older than your father, I think you mentioned, it's a different sort of experience. And you're right, these graduate programs aren't really available anymore or as readily available as—

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, the companies have graduate programs, but they start with someone as a graduate. So they just expect most people to do their full-time university and whatever. And universities, I guess, are not as accommodating as they used to be around part-time students. And the decline of the manufacturing sector, et cetera, has meant that there probably aren't as many opportunities as there were at that point in time. So when I started in Port Kembla at At the steelworks, there was 25,000 people employed at the plant.

Gosh.

And there was 100 and something, class of 100 trainees as graduate metallurgists started. And when I finished 6 years later, there was only 6 of us that graduated. So the attrition rate was pretty high.

Yeah.

But it was a— it was just a different time. And I think, you know, So whether or not it would work today, I'm not too sure about. But there was a lot of benefit from it from my perspective.

We had a recent session with James Fazzino. He was talking about steel being— he nicknamed it, so he's chair of Manufacturing Australia, but called it the electric steel. Or is that correct? Or is that what they call it, electric steel? Because the amount of electricity you need to create steel is so high that—

Yeah, well, that and Aluminium. Aluminium, they say, is solidified electricity.

That's right.

Yeah. And that was a business that I went into later on. I ran BHP Billiton's aluminium business for a few years based out of London. So it was, yeah, it's one of a number of commodities that is very energy hungry and makes a big difference what the energy cost and availability is to whether or not that business succeeds.

Yeah, and I'm just conscious if we go into energy, I know there's so much to dig into, but it's interesting sort of looking back at your career and sort of thinking, okay, well, it started in the steelworks, 25,000 people, and then those manufacturing roles have now sort of shifted to where the lower cost of energy is. Yeah, I mean, I'd be interested to get your perspective around where energy prices are going. You know, if you listen to maybe a news reporter on what the government might be saying. They're talking about stabilising or potentially going backwards, or I'd be interested sort of what you are seeing as a bit of a trend out of curiosity.

Yeah, well, I think there's only, it's hard to defy gravity and I think that prices have gotta go up to continue to support the build out of the the energy transition. So, I mean, there's 2 ways of thinking about that. One is that our existing fossil fuel generating assets based around coal, which is what was the foundation of the electricity sector in Australia, particularly on the East Coast, as they age and get much closer to just having to close, then you've got to replace that with something. So you've not only got the fact that electrification's going to continue to increase, you've got to physically replace the generation capability that you have with renewables.

Yeah.

And then, you know, a coal-fired plant can operate 24/7, whereas a solar farm or a wind farm only operates when the sun's out or when the wind's blowing. So typically you need 3 times as much generating capacity of renewable as you do from the coal plant. So all of a sudden you've, you know, you can see where the extra capital is. And what makes it worse is that the best place to build solar farms and wind farms are not where the coal plants are. So you end up having to duplicate all your transmission and distribution infrastructure.

Yeah.

So someone's got to pay for all of that. And The way the system works at the moment is that the investments that are made in that get passed through to either the consumer or the taxpayer. And one way or another, most of us are consumers and taxpayers. And so you end up, you know, it's just a question of which pocket the money's going to come out of.

Yeah.

So while the fuel cost of solar is free and the same with wind, you've got to think about the overall capital cost of the overall investment. And, you know, it's exacerbated by the fact that we've got really good rooftop solar penetration in Australia, about 30-odd percent per capita. But what that means is during the middle of the day, energy prices are about zero or negative on a sunny day because you're getting free electricity. The problem is that that's only for that period of time and people still want to charge electric vehicles or run their washing machines or whatever when the sun's gone down. So that's got to come from somewhere. And so you've got this bizarre situation that really the only option we've got at the moment, well, not the only option, but it relies heavily on fossil fuels being there for those—

Yeah.

periods where the sun isn't shining and the wind isn't blowing. Until we can get more longer-term storage, more batteries, you know, some of the pumped hydro projects like Snowy Project is well over budget and significantly delayed. So that's not helping either. So all of that's going to lead to more pressure on energy prices.

Yeah. And I mean, all of our— this conversation comes up in our mastermind sessions around, you know, each company and even individuals having their own plans for you know, a transition in energy. I just find it interesting that there's no national plan here in Australia. Do you think that's underway or is it?

Yeah, look, I think one of the biggest problems is that there isn't good national coordination. I mean, we've set decarbonisation targets nationally, but one of the problems is really to do with just the Federation that, you know, each state has, you know, its own historically its own set of energy assets that have either been sold off or supplemented by private enterprise. And so—

Yeah.

There is an overall market operator and there's Australia-wide regulation, et cetera, but it isn't as coordinated as it needs to be. And I think the analogy that I like to talk to is we need to kind of land the transition safely, which is a bit like trying to get a plane to land on the runway And you've got to get the glide path right. And the problem we have at the moment is that, you know, it's like having multiple air traffic controllers with people having different perspectives. And whether that's the states or whether that's other commentators out there, they're expecting other things.

Yeah.

Everyone wants to land the plane as quickly as you can, but if the glide path's too steep, we'll crash. And equally, if we overshoot, we'll crash. And so getting that balance right is a real Is a real challenge.

Yeah.

And it is going to require a lot more thinking, both at that kind of national leadership level, but also as individuals. I mean, it's interesting just talking to some people yesterday about this question about, you know, the energy load during the middle of the day versus at the end of the day.

Yep.

Most washing machines, etc., now have timers on them. that you can set them up to run when you're not in the house. But most people would still wait till they come home and put their load of washing on when they get home at the end of the day. And so they're relying on higher cost electricity at that time of day to do the work.

Yeah.

That if I—

There's always a chance that it might randomly, if you don't slam the door hard enough, it flows everywhere.

Well, yeah, there are risks, right? But there is technology around now that people don't make the most of.

Yes.

Like most things, the capability of most things we buy today, you know, we all use, you know, less than 10% of it generally. And sometimes a lot of us like me, it's more like 5%. But there are those kind of things. So there's an educational thing here as well. And as we just talked about, there are lots of things that individuals can do, but there are lots of challenges in the way. So, you know, an example of that, you know, local government, you know, I can't put solar panels on my roof of my Victorian terrace house because the heritage overlay stops that happening because of the impact on the, you know, on the view of the property. So, you know, what's most important? So I think there's a lot of trade-offs that need to be thought through and And one of the biggest challenges with the energy transition is getting the transmission lines built. And the biggest problem there is nobody wants the transmission lines to run through their properties. Oh, that's true. Typically because of what they look like and the impact of those. And the same thing with wind farms. No one wants to see a wind turbine. Everyone thinks wind is great unless they, unless they can see it.

Because there seems to be a bit of perception and then Reality. And one thing that I picked up across the years is when I was looking at houses to buy, if I could see power lines near them or something, it'd be like, oh no, that's no good because of the radiation. Is that even true? Does anything come off those lines?

Well, look, there's been lots of studies done about, about, you know, various radiation. There's been studies done about noise from wind turbines. There's been study. So You know, the risks are, you know, very small, if anything at all, in most of these situations. And again, it's a case of, you know, compared to what? I mean, the radiation dose you get from flying is a lot higher than you would ever get from living near a power line.

Right. Yeah. And I think something you mentioned there just around sort of the transmission-wise. So obviously we're putting, you know, things that can capture the wind out near the coast is obviously nowhere near wherever it needs to get back to, which is probably going to a traditional, you know, making a beeline for a traditional coal-operated service. So I imagine that would be a huge delay in trying to get— well, if we need to get out to the coast to get this wind power back to the grid, then we've got to go through somewhere to get it.

Yeah, well, that's— and whether it's offshore, I mean, there isn't any offshore in Australia yet for those kind of reasons. And onshore is much the same because the best places to build wind farms means that there are thousands of kilometres of transmission needed.

Yeah.

In fact, the amount of investment in transmission that's going to be needed to kind of hit some of the targets is equivalent of, you know, imagine running a power line from the westernmost point of Australia to the easternmost point of Australia and then back to Alice Springs. So that's the kind of scale of investment.

Yeah.

And then when you think about no one actually wants those power lines to run through their property for various reasons, even though there are compensation regimes in place, a lot of people don't care about the money because if you're, you know, if you've lived on a rural property all of your life, the last thing you want is to see those big transmission towers running through your property. And then the suggestion, well, we'll just put them all underground, is even worse because the cost is going to be a multiple of what it is and no one wants a trench built through their property either.

So it is a really complex dynamic because I want cheapest energy and I want it all to be natural. But the cheapest energy is obviously going to be from a fully depreciated coal service that has the infrastructure there. And I don't want to pay for it. If you send me a bill, it's like Qantas asking me to pay for the I mean, maybe this is my preference, but they say, do you want to do the green fee, which is a couple of dollars? I'm like, no, Qantas, you can take that out of your margin. So it's like everybody wants it clean and pure, but also cheap.

Yeah. And it's a real challenge. I know in my time in electricity retail, we were— could provide fully offset electricity and gas and telco, but no one wanted to pay any more for it. And across, we had 4-odd million customers. So absorbing all of that and giving it away for free was cost prohibitive.

Yeah.

So it's one of those things where, yeah, the challenge between what people would like to have and what they're prepared to pay for.

Yeah.

I think there's a long journey to go on yet where, as a country, we're up for bearing the cost. And some European countries have done that. Germany's a good example of where they've been prepared to pay more, but there's a lot of unhappy people as well as it actually rolls out. And one of the biggest problems I think we have here is that there hasn't been the amount of transparency that perhaps there should have been about what the cost of transition should be. Because there is the concern that if everyone knows what it's going to cost, then people are not going to get on board and therefore it won't happen. When we need to transition for 2 reasons. One is that the system that we're relying on at the moment is just going to die. And then the second issue was really the greenhouse gas climate change issue.

Yeah.

So there's 2 issues here that we're trying to solve for, not just one.

And just to sort of maybe tie that into both. So if I'm running a company and I'm looking at, okay, what do I need to do? What's one thing I need to do or make sure is in place around energy transition or just whether it's procurement or is it ESG? Is it not? I'm not sure. Anything you'd say, just focus on this one thing and that's probably gonna give you the most bang for your buck.

Yeah, well, make sure it's on your agenda. I think sometimes one of the issues is that Yeah, energy costs only get on people's agendas when prices are very high in terms of the boardroom or the C-suite, and they let the procurement department just look after it. The problem often with procurement departments is they don't want to tell their boss that prices are going to go up. They're there knocking on the door telling you that they've done a great deal to take prices down.

Yeah.

But when prices are heading in the upward direction, they tend to be slow to react. And what I think that companies and leaders need to do is have a plan. Think about how you actually manage your energy procurement. But not only that, what can you do about energy efficiency? And start to do things now, even though the business case might not feel like It's going to be, you know, the best spend of a capital dollar.

Yeah.

You know, but I think that there are ways to start thinking about that. And I think the other thing that businesses need to do, you know, one of the things that has to happen is we need to get more rooftop solar penetration.

Yeah.

And we need to get storage.

You're talking commercially or residential?

Residential and commercially. But one of the problems is that If you don't own your house or you don't own the office building you're in or you don't own the factory that you're operating in, you're not going to spend the money to put solar on the roof. Your landlord wouldn't even let you. But there's no incentive for landlords to do anything about it. So I think there's a regulatory political policy gap there somewhere that needs to be filled. But so, you know, how can you go about having conversations with whoever owns the building that you're in, you know, to make sure that you're going to have access to lower cost energy going forward?

Yeah.

And if you're in the property game, then how can you differentiate yourself by doing some of that that actually sets you up to be in a better position than your competition?

Yeah. Yeah. Because I mean, It's interesting, like landlord, I get that dynamic, but even as a homeowner, and typically my wife and I will stay in a house for 3 years despite our best intentions to be there forever. And you know, there's always another project or something to fix up. But it's just, yeah, purely on a numbers game, it doesn't really stack up 'cause here's the price, here's the ROI. And by the way, it doesn't really affect my sale value in 3 years' time. So. I'll just go and— Yeah.

And that's where I think you're right. I mean, the return on, if you just do a standard return on investment, it isn't going to work. Now, you might be using the wrong assumption about what you would be paying for your energy if you don't make the investment. And I'd suggest you should use some sensitivities around how you do that. But I think what needs to happen really is how do you How do you get a faster depreciation rate, if you like, on that? And maybe that's got to be some policy positions that says, well, you know, you'd pay less stamp duty, for example, if you had more solar, you know, if you had solar on your roof and you sold it or you bought it, right?

Yeah.

Or if you've got, you know, like you, Dave, with multiple properties, less land tax if you've got more energy-efficient properties. So there's just got to be ways to actually be a bit smarter around this and to incentivise investment in what's going to be necessary as opposed to disincentivising by doing nothing. Because particularly in the kind of world we're in at the moment, that discretionary income, you'd much rather make sure that you're getting some value out of that, not just potentially feeling a bit better about it. You'd like to feel good and get some value out of it. Yep.

Oh gosh, great. It comes back to sort of that national plan. Well, you certainly have, I mean, thinking about that last role, the industry, the role you were in. Yeah, certainly that moth to the flame. I thought, well, going from a leading from the front, but maybe it's the flame at the front and you're just, you're being attracted to it. So maybe let's go back to a couple other scenarios because I know you've been parachuted in on various scenarios and we've touched on the AGL example. But I'd like to sort of maybe tease out why is it that you're the one selected? Because it sounds like the AGL, whilst you're the last one back from the toilet, that wasn't the reason. You obviously had characteristics, experience. What do you think it is that makes you thrusted forward to then be leading from the front?

Yeah, if I knew all of that, I might have lingered a bit longer. before coming back into the room on occasions. But I think it builds on itself in the sense that there is nothing, you know, real practical lived experiences prepare you for the next one.

Yeah.

The classroom is necessary, but real life experience is the the icing on top. I think that really makes the— gives people the confidence that you can do it because you've been there and done it before. So, you know, it's one of the, you know, it's one of probably the most frustrating things that, you know, I've been involved with as well, sitting around the table doing talent management assessments on people.

Yep.

And, you know, talking about, you know, Sally or John or someone and saying, well, look, they've got really high potential, but they just haven't done the hard yards yet. And then as a result of that, they kind of don't get the opportunity. So it's like a self-fulfilling prophecy that if they haven't done a hard job, they're seen as not being ready to do a hard job. So I think one of the things I'd say to anybody is, Don't shy away from any opportunity where you might be inclined to shy away because you think there's a high probability you might fail. So failure is not a bad thing if you learn. Failure is only a bad thing if you don't learn. And so I think I was fortunate that You know, some of that goes back to that early grounding that I was getting experiences that were in advance of my years, if you like. And that, that helped. And then I also, you know, some by luck, probably a lot less by design, that I was fortunate that I, that I was in some challenging experiences and worked with some people, worked with bosses that kind of were quite demanding and extracted the most from me and gave me opportunities to do different things.

Good bosses, bad bosses?

Well, I think, I mean, what is a good or a bad boss? Some people say a good boss is someone that doesn't ask too much of you. And I'd say that's probably a bad boss ultimately. You really need to have people that respect you and treat you fairly, but demand a lot of you because that's the only way that you learn. And then I think the other thing that I had the opportunity to do a number of times was short, sharp projects where I was kind of taken out of what my day job was and got to work with others on trying to solve problems. So I think if you've got a problem-solving focus and you're not scared of doing something you haven't done before, and I would say if you don't feel nervous about it, you're not doing the right thing. You've got to almost have sufficient self-doubt to drive your own performance. And that's a critical part of learning, I think. And so to your question, I had a series of those kind of opportunities and it wasn't— somehow I managed to get the balance right between not being overly like the kid in the footy team saying, pick me, pick me. I think if you do that, then you're likely not to get picked.

Yeah.

So there's an element of being, having the right persona about self-confidence, but not over self-confidence and letting your track record speak for you as opposed to self-promotion. So that's a tough balance that you that you need to learn and understanding the politics of organizations and then finding people that will be your supporters. And I think, again, if you go actively looking for them, you're probably doing the wrong thing. So, I mean, it's a balance. There is no silver bullet here.

Sounds very organic almost. Yeah. Fantastic. Well, thanks for sharing, Graeme. We're going to sort of change pace a little bit and we'll— I've just got a couple of questions. Might throw you off guard here, but who knows? Is there a book that you've read that you'd recommend sort of other people pick up? And is there a reason that you'd recommend that book?

Yeah, look, if it's for enjoyment, Then I'm a bit of a fan of kind of either spy or murder mystery stuff, but where the characters are very rich rather than necessarily just the storyline. So I love the Mick Herron books, the Slow House books or Slow Horses.

Yes.

They've now brought those to the screen. Jackson Lamb's a very flawed anti-hero, if you like, and all the characters are flawed. And I really like that. And then the other ones are, I like the Jo Nesbø series, the Harry Håller stories about, again, Scandinavian police procedural stuff, but with a character that's got lots of problems.

Yes.

And is very flawed. And there's a lot of richness in thinking about the people. If it's more kind of the textbook stuff, whenever I've moved, I've usually found that I've got a whole lot of management books on the bookcase that I've bought in an airport somewhere and I've read the first 30 pages and then I've fallen asleep and I can see my boarding pass is about page 30 or 40 of the thing. So I've been going back reading some of those. Although I have to say, I found that I really love audiobooks and I found that I'm much more effective listening than I am reading. I stay awake a bit longer and you can multitask. So I spend a bit of time on the tractor plowing fields, listening to things. And so some of those, there's, I just can't remember the author, but there's a book called Alchemy.

Oh yes.

Rory somebody.

Is it The Alchemist or Alchemy?

I think it's called Alchemy. So he's an ex-advertising executive who's really talking about buyer behavior and what drives the psychology of people making decisions.

So sort of conscious that, yes, you've had a different path to maybe what's on offer at the moment, but Any advice you'd give to your younger self or maybe an individual like yourself now in the very early stages of their career?

Yeah, I think that you always can learn and that, as I said before, failure isn't a bad thing provided you learn. I think at the point in time, it sometimes is very difficult to see that. And there is, you know, and fear of failure drives a lot of behavior, particularly in male leaders. Fear of failure is a significant driver, or maybe better to say paralyzer of many male leaders that just don't want to have a go. Of course, they're concerned about the downside.

Yep.

So I think, you know, taking risks and being aware of what the consequences of both getting it right and getting it wrong, you just gotta do that. But you've gotta, I think you've gotta bring people on the journey with you and never be afraid to ask for help. I had some good supporters and some What I'd call somewhat passive mentors along the way. But I didn't, you know, if I had my time over again, I'd probably use those relationships or use is a terrible word. But what I mean is, you know, make the most of it. Have more conversations around what I was going through at the time and listen more than I did. I think one of the things that I That didn't help me along the way was that I was often more concerned about the welfare of people that were working for me in difficult situations and crisis situations than I was about my own welfare.

Yeah.

Didn't seek out help and didn't, you know, didn't talk it through or get, you know, psychological support when it made sense to do so. And one of the great things today is the R-U-O-K thing is, I wish that had been around 10, 15, 20 years ago. I think that there was too much focus on if you're the leader, you had to prove that you were bulletproof.

Well, that's right. And you've got a persona, you're leading from the front, you're taking charge. It doesn't sort of provide a scenario for yourself to say, well, actually I need to just have a check-in with myself. shows, you know, some weakness you might perceive. And so it's— yeah, I can see how that scenario, having that advice for yourself, is actually okay. And just lean on the advice of mentors because that's what they love to do and share the scars and the wounds that you actively share with our communities and stuff now. So it's, yeah, coming full circle, I guess.

It was something that took me a long time to learn, that vulnerability was a good thing, not a bad thing. And yeah, another book. I had the opportunity to do the senior development course at London Business School. And one of the professors there, Rob Goffey, wrote a book in partnership with someone whose name I can't remember at the moment, but it was called Why Would Anyone Want to Be Led by You? And it kind of delved into those issues around vulnerability being one of them and transparency and honesty being, you know, most people were very happy to work for someone that they believe was genuine and was telling them how it is, whether it was good or bad news, as opposed to someone that they thought. And that was one of the most powerful aligning tools And they did a whole lot of empirical research on other things that we know what made leaders effective and what didn't.

Yeah.

And so I learned quite a lot out of that and had the opportunity to spend some time with Rob Goffey at London Business School, kind of working through all of that on the back of a pretty challenging 360-degree process that they put all of the attendees through to start with. So they're all feeling a bit bruised, I think, before they went into a process where they help build you up into something which is hopefully a more resilient leader in the future. Great.

Well, thank you for sharing, Graeme. We're just about to sort of close off the interview. I've got 1 minute of rapid-fire questions which I'll throw at you, but maybe just an open question back to you, Graeme, just in closing. Was there anything I didn't ask you that you thought you might have a comment on or an area you wanted to share?

Yeah, I think the One of the things about being parachuted into challenging situations, whether they be turnaround situations or whether a leader is just— the previous leader that might have been well-loved by the organization has left under whatever circumstances, is thinking about how you prepare yourself for that. And I guess it comes back to what we were just talking about in terms of being vulnerable and being open.

Yeah.

and being available to the new team so that the truth of the situation comes out and building some alignment. And if it means that more change needs to happen, don't be afraid of telling people that, well, yes, there is going to be more change. Not everyone that's in the room at the moment is probably gonna be here in 3 to 6 months' time. But what I can't guarantee that you'll all be around, but what I can guarantee is you'll be treated fairly. And I'm available to talk through whatever decisions are made about those kind of changes. So that's tough, but it's more tough if you don't actually take that approach to it.

Yeah, yeah. Be real, I think. Fantastic. Well, thank you for sharing, Graeme. So yeah, Basically, I'll throw as many questions as I can at you in 60 seconds. Well, they're not questions, they're just A or B scenarios, or some people pick C, isn't that as much?

D, all of the above.

It's just sort of whatever comes into your subconscious. I've got a little timer here. Ready to go?

Yeah, let's go. All right, cool.

Early bird or night owl?

Night owl.

Oil or gas?

Gas.

Sweet or savory?

Savory.

Onshore or offshore?

Offshore.

Comedy or drama?

Drama.

Horse or lamb?

Horse or lamb? Horse. Yeah, lots. We've got lots of horses.

I thought you might be against that. Well, um, chair or director?

Chair.

Day or night?

Night.

Public or private companies?

Yes.

Innovation or optimization?

Optimization.

Learn more from good or bad boss?

Bad.

Organic growth or outside capital stimulating investment?

Organic.

Continuous learning or proven methods?

Continuous learning.

That's it. Didn't catch you off guard at all. Fantastic. Well, thank you, Graeme, for your time today. And I'm really looking forward to introducing you into our Perth community soon with the launch of our new mastermind and looking forward to having you at the helm and chairing that group and supporting the next generation or the current generation of executives. And thanks for being so open and sharing today. And I know we could have gone in so many different directions. So Thank you for allowing me to try and keep it contained. And yeah, it's a very rich experience you have and thanks for sharing.

Well, thanks, David. As you say, I think we, yeah, there's a few decades we didn't touch. This was probably, might not be a good or bad thing for the listeners. I'm very much looking forward to leading those groups in Perth. Perth's a special place for me that I spent important parts of my career and my daughter was born over there. So it was a really important life-changing experience for me. being into the round purse. So I'm looking forward to that very much.

Fantastic. All right, thanks, Graeme.

Okay, thanks, David.