Leading through Pain: Dean Carrol's Journey in the World of Wine

The calmer you are, the more rational you are in your thought-making and your decision-making. It's tricky, it's challenging, but you just have to stay on the path that you think is most important whilst making the right tactical decisions. We can't go backwards here. We've got to actually sustain the business. We've got to make decisions that can get us best returns through the period where we've got these low-yielding impacts. So the first element is, are your people safe?

Mm-hmm.

Be that fire, be that smoke, be that floods, be that pandemic. So that has to be the overarching first decision you make. The key is to not have no surprises. So try and communicate as openly as you possibly can. Always try and find whatever the glimmering light might be that gives people reason for hope.

Okay, Dean Carroll, welcome to The Mentor List.

Thank you very much.

It's great to, yeah, it's great to have you on the show today and catch you in one of your final weeks as CEO at Brown Family Wine Group.

Yes.

And I guess the question that everybody's dying to know, how do you become the boss of one of Australia's most loved wine companies?

Yes, it's a, it's an aspirational place to work and an aspirational industry to be in. There's no doubt about that, particularly if you enjoy a glass or two. But I came into the industry quite young, so in my 20s. Um, I came in via Island Cooler. For those older people in the audience who might understand, coolers back then were the— were a real fad. So I worked for Island Cooler, I went up to Brisbane in my 20s, had a great experience with them. I was lucky enough then to, to be picked up by Diageo, who weren't Diageo at the time but United Distillers, and became the—

Yeah.

Now the biggest spirit company in the world. So that was a great learning for me to experience them as they went through growth. And they went through growth. They were an old-fashioned Scotch and gin brand back then and became a modern RTD, young consumer-driven business.

And that was great. What's RTD?

So ready to drink. Sorry.

Right.

Industry.

Yep. Is this the Bundy and Coke?

This is the cans and the Bundy and Coke and the, what now is things like Ruskies and Cruisers, vodka Cruisers and those sort of things.

Right.

So right at the start of them, because before that it was VB, Draught, or if it was a birthday you'd have Crownies. Like, the, the selection really wasn't like what it is today. RTDs is a great— Well, we were—

the, the business was actually— you had UDL was the original player, uh, Can Range, which I don't even know if it still exists. You don't see it, certainly don't see it Very much. But it was the original, um, and that's who they, um, Diageo— in fact, Diageo, as they became globally, ignored, um, ready— the ready-to-drink market, said we won't be doing that, we're a Scotch business, you drink Scotch with neat or with water or on ice, and you're a gin business and you have that with tonic, and you don't, you don't go mixing things with Coke and the like, which UDLs were doing. But they transformed, led by Australia, um, and Australia and the Asian market. So, so yeah, it was a good, great learning curve to see a business transform. Uh, from there I went to a, uh, to an agency business, which was my first foray into wine, a business by the name of Tucker Seabrook. Again, a family business, uh, that was ultimately taken over some 6 or 7 years later. But it was a premium wine business that had some spirits and beer attached, and that was my, as I said, my first foray into wine. And after 6 years with them and a year out of the industry doing something which we talked about earlier around financial leasing, which told me that's not what I want to do, Brown Brothers opportunity came up and I took a national sales role with them. And over the last 16 years, halfway through, they said the opportunity became to become CEO. So that's how I ended up there.

Wow, fantastic. And we're talking about you're at a family or a friend's barbecue and you say you're in financial leasing versus, oh, I run a wine business.

Yes.

Obviously there's a bit of an uptake in people's interest in what you do and everyone has a sort of a love for wine. So how have you found, how do you find that?

Well, people lean in in a social environment. So if you're a social environment, I've been in beverage industry all along and When you say, I work with a wine company, I work with Brown Brothers, I work with Tucker Seabrook, whatever the company might be, people sort of lean in and want to have more of a conversation with you. Or when I said I was in a finance leasing business, they sort of lean out and go, right, that's interesting. And not really that interested in, they're onto the next people to talk to. So it certainly is a social industry and one that people love, which is what makes it fun. All right.

Do you feel like you have to be an ambassador just for Brown Brothers or are you able to drink other types of wine?

Funny thing about wine is spirit companies and beer companies are very much that way. They drink their own brand. Wine is a category where you're almost encouraged to try things. You know what, if I ask you what you drink, you won't necessarily name a brand, you'll name a style of wine.

Yeah.

I like Shiraz, I like red wine, I like sparkling, whatever it might be. If you ask a spirit drinker, what do you— I drink Johnnie Walker. Beer drinker, I drink Corona, whatever it may be. Wine's not like that. Wine is a category that almost encourages you to try different things and you end up being, it's one of the hardest things about the industry in terms of being in it is how do you get brand loyalty out of an industry that's encouraged to just say, I drink red wine and I'll try Shiraz from anywhere almost.

Yeah.

So it is the, it's a challenging space. It's a good space. Like we certainly drink other people's wine as a test to see how we compare.

Yeah.

But it's, yeah, it's, it's more, it's much more common than in other categories.

Excellent. And I guess, is there sort of information exchange with the growers as well in terms of the bottling style and all that?

Absolutely. Groups like Wine Australia and Australia Grape and Wine. And we have growers that supply us, that supply other wineries as well. It's a very social and communicative industry. There's not many secrets. People try and help each other work through challenges. Like agriculture obviously is a risky industry in terms of the environment. So tend to help each other out where we can because we're all at the elements. If we get fire, rain, smoke, whatever it might be, then helping your colleague out to, you know, because they might be their whole vintage wiped out for a year and that's their income for a year. So you don't want to see that. So if you can help each other, you do.

Yeah, you mentioned brand loyalty there, Dean, and I know you went through sort of a fairly recent brand change, an actual company name change. You want to maybe talk us through What was sort of the push for that, from going from Brown Brothers into the new name?

Yep. So Brown Brothers was a single brand family business for 120-odd years. And in around 2010, we realized the impact of climate was real. So we saw the average temperature going up about 2 degrees over the last 25 years. So therefore, some of your cool climate vineyards, if you go down the track, aren't gonna be cool climate vineyards into the future. They're gonna start to become more moderate temperatures. So we started looking for cooler climate and that took us to Tasmania. And we bought some vineyards and brands in Tasmania in 2010. And then in 2016, we added Innocent Bystander out of the Yarra Valley. So up until that point, I suppose the business was always Brown Brothers with add-ons.

Mm.

And that made growing the other parts of the portfolio and those brands being able to reach their potential more difficult. So we made the decision, we still wanted to have all the cues of the family business being Brown Family, but we just wanted to lead in by saying, hey, we're not just about Brown Brothers. We've got these other brands within the portfolio that are very different and potentially play different roles within the portfolio. So that was the driver of change. It was the right thing. I think a really positive, we got almost instant momentum, particularly for Tasmania out of that change.

Yeah. I'm sure you'll touch on this a bit later as well, but just in terms of discovering that cool climate wines are becoming moderate climate, Does that imply that you need to be replanting and you are looking at different grape varieties, or is it actually just more about the style that changes?

Now we're certainly looking for varieties that we know will handle the warmer climate. So for instance, we bring a grape variety like Fiano to Australia because it handles warm climate in Italy. We know it, it can deal with the, we can deal with the, as I say, the warmer climates, less rain. So we plant that there with the view that we know it also got a good taste profile so it can deal in warmer climates. So there still are cool climates in Australia. It's a great diversity of this country, but we are certainly looking at, I say we, there is in the royal we as if I'm still going to be there for the next 10 years. But we are still bringing varieties that we think will cope better with the climate into the future.

Yeah. I guess coming back to the family sort of concept, what's the benefits of working for a sort of private family-run business? Or family?

I think family businesses, there's no one family business I think that's the same, but you do get the fundamental benefit of a family business I think is that you've got a longer time horizon to achieve what you want to achieve. So in a public business, you're obviously under shareholder scrutiny, public scrutiny very early, quarterly results everyone jumps over, half-yearly, annual results. And if you're not hitting your numbers, there's a lot of noise and a lot of pressure comes very quickly. And you tend to make decisions that may be best for the short term, not necessarily the long term.

Yeah.

And 10 years are shorter. Private family business, they're in it for generations to come. They want to hand over a business. I'll talk specifically about the Brown Family Wine Group or the Brown family. They want to hand over the brand, the company for generations to come to be successful. So they're looking at a decision framework that's 3, 5, 10 years. even 20 years down the track.

Yeah.

And you really, public companies, very hard to do that. So that's the, I think the biggest benefit. The second benefit is the familiarity. The family are engaged, they're involved. I've found that to be a positive with this family. I know not every family business that's the case, but this family have been terrific in terms of entrusting me to carry on their legacy and be a custodian of their business. And, but they're familiar, you know, you're a name, you're not a, You're not an employee identification number. They know everybody within the family, within the business. So I find that as a real positive.

And on that, I know you guys have got, you came up with some internal rules or guidelines around, because obviously when there's a family business, someone that's part of the family, there's a hesitation as an employee that, oh, well, they're a family member, so they'll be the CEO or whatever. belief is that may not be true, but I know you guys had some things to sort of guardrail that at Brown Family Wine. Would you be open to sharing that?

Yeah, the family have to go and work outside the business before they come and have the option to come and work for the business. So to use Ross's words, it's like go and stuff someone else's business up before you come and stuff the family business. So get your learning somewhere else. And really it is, it's about learning and about experience elsewhere and not just being, because they grow up effectively touched by the family business. If they never leave it, it's very difficult to get the learnings and the rounded roundness that you need to be able to take a more senior role within a family business. So they spend up to 5 years working elsewhere and then have the option of coming back. Some come back, some don't. So they get their learning elsewhere.

Yeah, great. And you mentioned sort of that long-term horizons that you get or benefits of family business being long-term horizons. But maybe just talk us through so we can appreciate the actual horizon in the wine industry. So to go from the idea of planting a vine or grafting a vine into a different variety or whatever it is to actually selling it at a winery or a Dan Murphy's or wherever it gets sold. Do you want to talk us through that process? Because you mentioned a few things like Fiano. There's a lot of innovative things that's happening, but the lead times, maybe if you could explain that to us and we'd understand the challenge in which you work.

It certainly, yeah, it is difficult for a public company to run a wine business because the returns just aren't short-term. So if you think of a beer, you can have an innovation session, you can come up with an idea, you've probably got it in market in, you know, 3 to 6 months. In beer, you're probably getting paid in 7 days. So even at the end of, from go to, from go to whoa, you're probably 6 months of getting some return for your effort.

Yeah.

Maybe longer, but certainly you can get it in 6 months. In wine, you have the idea for a variety that you don't have in the ground currently or aren't able to source. So say it's Fiano, you've gotta actually get cuttings to be able to plant the vines. You've then got to go through a— probably it's about 3 years before you get the product come to, to anywhere we can use it as juice effectively.

So that's getting the grapes to the right—

Getting the grapes, putting them in the ground, letting them grow, letting the vines grow and prosper, and then get to a stage where it can actually produce fruit. And then obviously the quantities too, is the first couple years are pretty light, so you'll get some fruit through, but you're not getting the sort of full, they're not reaching their maximum potential for some time. So it's a minimum 3 years from a pure varietal perspective, unless you can source the fruit elsewhere, which you'd obviously try and do. But for many cases you can't. So if you're, and particularly if you're gonna innovate, you are carrying the can. The idea might've been a great idea 3 years ago, but by the time you get to actually bring it to market, Right. it's like, yeah, we've moved on. So it's a tricky space. So you need a, a really long-term view.

So is this— does this create barriers to entry so you don't see as many new wines or wine cellars or wine growers appearing? Is that sort of the case?

I think that was a— Brown Brothers was a leader in the innovative space and it invested where others didn't and took a long-term view. I think these days there's more players, there's a lot more players. There's 3,000-odd wineries in Australia, or wineries or wine growers. So you've got a lot of people who are going overseas, seeing varieties that might, that might be, have potential for Australia and bringing them back. So there's certainly more competitive than it once was, but you need, you need to, you know, strap yourself in for the investment time period that you're not going to have any income for that effort. Yeah.

And those 3,000, because I know you're obviously running a very commercial operation, while we call it a family They're not disconnected around being commercial. The 3,000, because there's this uprising of hobby wineries. So a lot of our members, for example, after a big CEO gig now, not retire, but move out to run the hobby winery. And is that a commercial operation in your experience?

Now that encompasses everybody. So there's a lot of boutique in that. There's a lot of as you say, CEOs stroke lawyers who decide that's a way to, well, actually, if you, as they say, if you wanna be a millionaire in wine, you start with 2. So—

It's like an airline.

It is a bit that way. So yes, there's a lot of boutique producers. And when you say 3,000 producers, some of those would be, you know, they'd be just producing enough for, you know, from themselves and their friends and their colleagues or whatever. And everything from there to Treasury being the biggest in the Australian industry. So So there's a lot of diversity. It makes industry collective challenging because there's such a diversity of stakeholders within wine. But you're right, there's a lot of what I call part-time wine producers within that.

Well, it seems in North America and Europe especially, there's a lot of sort of life insurance companies that are sort of buying up assets. And again, it's because they can afford that sort of long-term view. Is that also seen in Australia?

So a little bit of that started about 2 years ago here. There was for a while private equity weren't interested. Then it's become interested. And as you say, some of the longer-term view with superannuation, some involvement. It's an interesting time 'cause the industry has come off quite a lot in recent time that people who've got a longer-term view would be leaning in. Whereas others, if you want a return in 3 to 5 years, it's a bit tricky. But you'd certainly need a longer-term view like a superannuation company might or a life insurance company.

Is it an industry that's going through a consolidation or is it sort of—

It probably needs, it actually needs to. It's too diverse at the minute. We're in oversupply. China was, so everyone was, everyone started planting grapes and particularly red wine when China was thriving. Then it cut off in one fell swoop and all that wine had nowhere to go. And no matter what you do in other markets, it's just not picked up the shortfall in China. So there's probably Somewhere between a year and 18 months of oversupply in red wine in this market. So it actually does need to consolidate. I think the industry would be healthier if there was some consolidation.

Yeah. You've just mentioned China, which I know, yeah, there was some logistical challenges, but going back to sort of this long-term strategy and then bringing that into your day-to-day and what you're dealing with, if I just couple of the highlights and you can probably throw a few more. We've got, I know you've dealt with bushfires, COVID, intellectual property challenges with name rights around Prosecco. So yeah, it'd be interesting to get your view around how you manage a company for that longer term, but then obviously you're faced with the day-to-day issue or crisis that you're dealing with. I'd be really open to hear how you deal with that.

Yeah, I think When I came in, I, there was, you know, I was a first-time CEO and there was, I knew there was going to be challenges. I had no idea there was going to be the size of challenges we've had over the last 8 years in terms of, we've had issues with glass exploding, we've had, we've had fires and the flow-on impact of smoke, we've had COVID, we've had our biggest export market China shut down, we've had an earthquake in Victoria and damage to the winery from an earthquake, we've had floods. So we've pretty much had everything that you could throw.

Pretty typical.

And how do you deal with that? Well, I suppose you, you need to manage, you need to manage and lead, and the combination becomes you just need to know when to lean in to do each one. But you've always got to have a view of where you're going and what you're trying to achieve. So if you think of China, for example, market basically declined by 95%. There's about 5% of wine that can still get in there. We've, we kept our staff in China, so we took the long-term view that invested 25 years in building a brand in China, was only really starting to get to the cusp of success. So we made the decision at the time, right, this could be 3 to 5 year pain, but we'll keep people in market to keep our brand with exposure, with a view that when it comes out, we'll be ahead of the pack.

Yeah.

And we'll be able to take advantage of, of that. Now time will tell whether that was a good decision or a bad decision, but—

What was the cost for the 95% Decline.

Like the, the, when they— so they, the tariffs, they put tariffs. So China, China government made a decision that supposedly Australia was effectively dumping wine into the China market, right? Put a tariff in place of 218% on all wine.

Yeah. So wine that was $10 is now $35.

Yeah, correct. Overnight.

Right. Okay. And then people will go for another option.

That's right. So Australia, so I just stopped. Chinese. And China, it's not just that, um, that tariff, it's the fact that the China government and the Australian government clearly weren't friends when, um, the PM was, was Morrison. So, so they, um, it wasn't just tariffs that, you know, everything that went through customs went slow. And China, you know, in a, in a country like China, if the, if the head government says we're not doing business with Australia, then that's what happens, right? And, and, um, so therefore Australia just ground to a halt.

Yeah.

And, you know, it was 3 to 5 years. We'd seen it happen with seafood in Norway, and that took about 5 years to work its way through. So we thought, well, it's a 5-year plan, we'll still sell some wine in that market. There was still an avenue we could sell at higher price, and we could sell direct through, through e-commerce rather than through distributors and the margin we lost there. So certainly didn't make any money through that time, but we made the decision that was, it was going to be beneficial to, to keep people on the ground in that market. And it's about to come out hopefully in March there. It's review, being reviewed now with a view that March is the, the end date, and hopefully that will, uh, come to fruition and we'll be able to sell wine into China from March openly. And we'll see whether that decision to keep people on the ground was a good decision or not. But you can take a longer-term view. Most businesses just shut their people down, stopped going there, did nothing going forward. And yeah, we decided as a family business, we take a longer-term view.

Right. Yeah. And obviously for a lot of the issues that David, you just mentioned, such as fires and floods, there's things like insurance products which help offset that pain. But obviously things like that geopolitical risk, you can't necessarily was difficult to plan for. How do you face those sorts of problems?

Which is the fire through fire obviously is the first thing about all those risks is we're a business that takes, I'm a person that takes safety first. So the first element is, are your people safe? Be that fire, be that smoke, be that floods, be that pandemic. So that has to be the overarching first decision you make. Are our people safe? And we had challenges with, you know, fires were close, we had to get people home and all sorts of things. So you, you get a real reality check of what's important in life.

Yeah.

Then you, then you look at, well, okay, business-wise, what can we do? The fires are approaching, or there's fire in the distance which causes smoke, which actually damages vines and makes them unsaleable, the fruit unsaleable or close to unsaleable depending on how bad it is. So then you're, you've got to deal with that. And of course floods is the, the other version, the flip side, which is the grapes don't ripen and they, um, and you get a much lower yield for, for the, for the year. So whatever happens, you end up with damage that has an impact on your business going forward. So in a flood year, like, a cost of goods might go up, might double overnight, the cost of fruit.

Right.

Is for the next year is now double what it was this year. Or in some cases even more than that. You know, in some, in some cases we had sort of 5 and 6 times the fruit cost going because of such a low yield. Your costs are effectively fixed. You know, your vineyard costs and your water you put in and whatever it may be is all pretty much fixed. So whatever yield you get tells you what your cost of goods is gonna be the upcoming year. In some cases 2 years if it's, if it's damaging. So you're dealing with a pain at the time and then you live with the pain for the next 2 years and you've got to deal with what it is that you do. Now vines are pretty hardy in that they'll come back in future years. The damage like on smoke or floods might hang around for the next vintage in terms of slightly lower yielding, but it generally comes out in the 3rd year. So that's, that's okay. But you, as I say, the, the business, your business strategies and goals, if you set a business plan for 10% profit growth next year and your costs have just gone just doubled, you've got a pretty challenging business to manage your way through. And that's where you say that families can take a view that say, I'm not happy with that, but I understand that's how it works.

Yeah.

Shareholding public businesses say, okay, I understand that, but that's— I'm not getting a return for that. And therefore you can make different decisions. So it's, uh, it's, it's tricky, it's challenging, um, but you just have to stay on the path that you think is most important whilst making the right tactical decisions to say We can't go backwards here. We've got to actually sustain the business. We've got to make decisions that can get us best return through the period where we've got these low-yielding impacts.

Yeah, I guess just in terms of your mindset as a leader, how do you then rally the troops, as it were, rally the work staff? Obviously you've ensured their safety. What comes next? And do you have a framework that you lean on in terms of Driving business?

I mean, my style is to just communicate openly. I mean, I think that's the only way you can handle it. There's no point not telling people you've got challenges and then you make a decision down the track and people don't understand why you've made it. So if you bring them along for the journey, be that town hall, be that obviously Microsoft Teams or the like that you've got now, that you can pretty much talk to anybody anytime and communicate openly and Q&A and be open with, with people and let them ask whatever they want to ask about the business. So I think the key is to not, not have no surprises.

Yeah.

So try and communicate as openly as you possibly can. Um, always try and find whatever the glimmering light might be that gives people reason for hope. You certainly, certainly don't want to be in a business where people don't feel like there's any hope for the future or they're going to be really, um, have an unpleasant, unpleasant work experience because of the challenges you're facing. You certainly can see If you have a bad vintage, well, there's every chance you'll have a good vintage in the future. Maybe here's a challenge that we can get, premiumise our product. Can we take product up a cog in the market? Our quality's fantastic. So talk about the things that add positivity to the business. And I generally just try and find the things that make, give people a reason to be positive regardless of circumstance, but they'll understand the circumstances.

Yeah. Hey everyone, thanks so much for tuning in. If you're loving this podcast, please give us a 5-star review.

So I think positivity and also just a— you're probably one of the CEOs that has one of the more calming natures. And maybe if you could just share, you know, along your journey how you've become sort of aware of how, how you react and how that can also sort of be perceived on others. And also maybe just to throw 2 questions in one, a lot of CEOs or executives are currently dealing with this hybrid style of work, which you've been dealing with or working within, working from somewhere like Byron Bay and then having all these remote sites, whether it's the top of Tassie or the other.

Yeah.

You've got so many different sites where you're either physically there or you're actually not, you're remotely managing. You mentioned Teams and a few little tools and tips, but interesting to just tease that out a bit more. So your self-awareness, but then also your tactical way of how you are communicating with Is it 250 plus? Yeah, the staff and how you've sort of nailed that one.

You might have to remind me the second question. To answer the first question, in terms of calmness, look, I'm a person who believes that you make better decisions the calmer you are, the more rational you are in your thought-making and your decision-making. I sort of work on the premise, or 2 things. One, I work on the premise that what's the absolute worst-case scenario out of this? And generally speaking, if you allow for that, it's— generally speaking, you don't actually have the worst-case scenario. Everything becomes a bit better than what the worst-case scenario is. But prepare yourself for the worst-case scenario.

Right.

And then make— and then take the actions you need to take. Engage your leadership team. Don't— certainly don't take it all on yourself. I'm not someone to, to do that. I trust my leadership team and work with them to find solutions. And I have a premise which frustrates my wife to some degree, but, uh, it's never— I work on the premise that it's never as good as you— when you get great results, they're never quite as good as you think they are, and there's something around the corner that's going to knock you around. Maybe that's this industry. And then when you have, when you have bad times, they're generally not as bad as you think they are at the time. You sweat it as if it's gonna, the business is gonna go bankrupt tomorrow. But the reality is that's not gonna happen unless the sun comes up tomorrow and you come up with an action plan that takes you forward. So my sort of highs and lows are probably less than most, but the middle range is where I tend to live and gives me, I suppose, a calmer demeanor than maybe some others.

Yep.

In terms of your second question, just go back and remember what you talked about. But in terms of the— sorry, go on.

You're sort of taking the edge off it. So yeah, the highs, it's sort of this too shall pass, and the lows, I will pick it back to the middle, which is like this calming spot. So even in your sort of tactics and, and maybe your language there, you're sort of bringing it back to center, uh, with each one. Um, and just before we move on to the second question, which I can't remember what it was, but this calming nature, because I'd love to know How much of this is environment? Because if I think about where you actually live outside of Byron Bay and then, okay, maybe on Tuesday next week you'll be on site, which would be in Beechworth or in Tassie, these beautiful picturesque wineries.

So it's true.

Is it? How much do you think environment plays on your personal calmness versus is that just who you are?

I think it is. probably who I am to some degree, but I think the environment does. And remembering what you're doing, like, we're not, we're not, you know, running hospitals here and dealing with life and death. We're making wine that people enjoy in social environments. So you always keep perspective of what you're doing, and it's a social— should be a social fun product. So therefore, yeah, you should create a social, as much as you can, a social fun environment to reflect the product that you're producing. So, um, yes, I think that's it. But in terms of environment, I lived in Beechworth for 5 years. That was a great experience, uh, living in the country and around the area. Um, now obviously living near Byron, again, good environment. So it is important. Like when I walk through the door at night when I come back from travel, it is— you sort of can sit and relax and enjoy. You're not, you're not sort of pent up, I suppose, in city space not too far from your office. So that's definitely a positive. Yeah, experiencing them. But I think no matter what you do, you've got to have an escape. When you're at a CEO level, there's— you can be— it can be 24/7. And if you let that happen, I don't think you end up one, in a good space from a health perspective, but you also don't make great decisions when you're under that sort of pressure. So I think you have to find what it is that appeals to you outside of work and, uh, and sort of double down on it, I think, to, to get the balance.

Dean, how do you like to switch off? What's your personal go-to?

Uh, we've got— it's changed a bit. We've got 5 acres now where we are at Ewingsdale. So as soon as I walk in the door, there's about 20 things I need to do. So that's changed things dramatically. It used to be more about tennis and golf and things like that, but these days it's— but I quite enjoy, um, potting around, and we're not too far from a beach, so a lot of swimming, uh, plays a role for me as well. So, um, Yeah, on the— I was going to say the farm, it's not a farm, on the property and then beach nearby enables me to unwind.

That's good.

Come on, Dave, you've forgotten that question. I've got it.

Well, the second part was having Velma, a lot of our members and listeners are talking about the issue about how do you rally and motivate this sort of hybrid workplace, they might not be in 5 days or they're having to change their management style, but this is something you've been, a playbook you've been running with for a while. So yeah, what have you found that works well? You mentioned town halls, MS Teams. So yeah, did you have a bit of a process or methodology around how you would plan your year? Or you mentioned sort of getting home and being able to switch off. Does that mean that you'd be on for 7 days on the road or Just be interested in sort of how you'd found that, what worked well, and anything you can share with that.

I think I always, I always traveled a lot regardless, uh, for business because we were spread around. And before that, being in national sales roles, the customers were spread all around the country, overseas, wherever they may be. So I've always— travel's been a big part. In fact, in some ways, Teams has made it a bit easier because there's, there's always— over the phone's one thing, but being able to physically see someone, see their expressions, obviously better one-on-one and face-to-face, but next best is Teams or Zoom or whatever you might be. You can still see reaction, you can still connect reasonably well with people. I think, I think you do. The hybrid is interesting. I, I personally find it the positives outweigh the negatives. Um, there's school of thought that says that's not the case, but from my perspective, I think it works quite well. It enables, particularly being a trap having someone who— being someone who travels a lot, I just think the benefits are there. You can engage people fully. The group conversations are much better than the one-to-one phone conversation. You can still have group conversations without having to be in the same room. You want to make sure you're always getting the, the opportunity to do that, and particularly when you've got remote states, remote sites. So for us, get to Tasmania, get to the Yarra Valley with Innocent Bystander, get to the vineyards where possible, uh, in Victoria. So you do have to be seen and visible. And if you can't be seen, your leadership team needs to be seen and be conveying the same messages. So it's not just about the leader.

Yeah.

We learned very early on in COVID, in fact through some of the, we do a Great Place to Work survey and it was clear that it's not just about the leader people wanna hear from. So finance wanna hear from sales, salespeople wanna hear from the winemakers, winemakers wanna hear from the, what's happening from a technology advancement and the like. So it really is a cross-functional business and you want to make sure that you are not the only one taking the leadership role and being seen around our business.

Yeah, great.

Thank you. Writing all those ones down.

Fix the trade. That's right. Yeah, I guess, Dean, when it comes to sort of long-term strategy, just come back to that topic and I guess the strategic choices of asset allocation, things like that. How do you view it in terms— I know you've got the— so backed by family, you've got that long-term view, you've got disasters happening left, right, and centre that you don't necessarily plan for. You've just touched on technological advancement and investment, for example. How do you therefore allocate what's important going forward?

It's close to the hardest part, I think, probably than than reading people in some ways, but, and the agriculture element. But that, but yeah, really understanding you've got, you've got finite resources in a family business. You've got probably tighter resources than maybe a public business might have. So, so you need to make good decisions and you can't do everything. And I've got honest assessment of myself at times through the, my tenure, I would've said we tried to do too much. And you realize that you just not end up not opportunities everywhere, but you can't chase everyone. So you need to be harder on yourself in terms of saying, let's decide what the biggest priority is here and then let's chase that aggressively rather than spread your investment 30% 3 ways and try and do 3 things and you end up not doing any of them as well and they therefore don't reach their potential. So I think you've gotta be tough. You can't be one-dimensional. export, we were bordering on being one-dimensional about China. And of course it lops off, a decision outside of your control, and all of a sudden you're left with nothing. So you have to balance that to a degree, but you've really got to be clear about what your hero positions are, what you really think the biggest opportunities are, and then give them a chance to succeed.

Yeah.

Because it's, uh, yeah, we're— I think it's— we're a fortunate business in that there are things that you can, you've got options. A business that hasn't got options obviously got challenges, but we've got options and you can be swayed around the table because the options sound good in isolation. But when you put them all together, you go, okay, well what's the most important here and what is the big prize? And then really give it a chance to succeed.

And how do you get that alignment? So let's— It's third generation family business. family-owned business. So you've probably got shareholders now that want to take the dividend and may not even live in the country versus another shareholder that's probably working in the business and loves wine and maybe even growing and making the wine. How do you bring that alignment between so many different incentives or intents?

Yeah, it's not easy. And particularly as family businesses go into the 3rd, 4th, 5th generations, obviously there's more mouths to feed and you there's differing needs. As you say, some people want to be in the business, some people don't. So the family need to align. As a CEO, you want the family to align to one set of, I suppose, shareholder objectives or shareholder principles.

Got it.

And we've done a pretty good job, I think, of getting to that space. And internally, if the family have different means of going forward, that's up to them really to sort out.

Yeah.

From a business perspective, the best benefit, the best position for the business is to be clear on what is it's trying to do. So this family business has been good in that regard. So yeah, for us it's about, I think the same thing you want. The hardest people to get on the same page, generally speaking, is your leadership team because they'll come at you, we should be spending this on technology because that's the greatest opportunity. And the sales guys are going, no, we need more heads on the ground because that's where that's where the revenue comes from. And marketing wants to spend on the brands because the brands are more important than anything else. And viticulture wants to— we need more vines and we need better winery. And so, so you have to get everyone to come to the, to a conclusion that this is the best outcome. And they don't— we have this sort of logic that says you don't have to agree, but you do once you leave the room. We all agree, we're all on the same page, right? So have it out there, or you're just in the, in the leadership Discussion, absolutely. We can debate it till the cows come home and we cannot, there can be people who don't agree with the position. But once we leave the room, we're all chasing that position.

Yeah.

And that's really important. And you see businesses that tend to topple over is where leadership starts breaking down itself about what it thinks it should be able to achieve. So I'm lucky in that I've got a good group of people around me that once we agreed something, as much as we debate it vigorously, we go out and execute collectively.

That's great. And how, in terms of cadence, in terms of those strategic meetings where you're deciding on what the priorities are and the success of past strategies and whether to continue, is it an annual meeting or do you actually meet more regularly than that?

We have an annual where we have board and senior leadership team together and we built into that and then senior leadership team would have a session before that to clear its mind and then board and SLT would come together from a strategic perspective. And that's, that's once a year. But we really, these days, it becomes rolling. Like, you're forever rolling your priorities and the environment's changing all the time. So you are, you are tweaking along the way, but you have to keep coming back to this is what we said we would do in terms of priorities. And generally speaking, you try and stick to somewhere between 3 and 5 that don't— that are what you're chasing from an annual perspective and then review at the end of the year your progress against those.

Yeah, aligning with your long-term vision.

Exactly. Yeah, exactly. So we're spending time at the minute on like a 2030 sort of North Star, which has 7 years in— well, a lot will change within 7 years. We won't, you know, anything could happen. But the reality is it just gives us a point to what could be. And therefore you start to align your resources to what could happen and what if you say you're effectively doubling your business in that time, what does that look like? What have you got to do? What has your business got to look like to be able to manage that? How do you make that sustainable?

Yeah. Walking back from that point.

You're correct.

Yeah.

To the reality of your customer doesn't want to talk to you tomorrow. But anyway, minor detail.

Yeah.

Fantastic. I like that hero positions. Yeah, took a note of that. Yeah, it sounds like it was almost, and I'm not sure if that was the intent, but it wasn't with the ownership structure that you're talking about, should we do initiative A, B, and C? That was more, here is the framework. And then when the rubber meets the road, it's with your exec team around how do we best execute that? So that sounded quite eloquent the way you've had that structured quite clearly.

You've got to have the right shareholders, family shareholders for that to happen. And they, they're passionate about what they want the business to look like. And you're interpreting that, checking in to make sure that feels like we're on the same page. And then our job's then about how do we execute. Yeah.

What's your tip for finding the right people to work with in terms of thinking about your executive team or your, your general staff?

combination of, uh, people who challenge you and won't just be yes people and tell you what you want to hear. But you also want a group of people who've got values aligned to yours and values aligned to your business. And I'm luckily either by, you know, good recruitment or people we already had in the business that we've got a good mix of that. We have the ability to have a laugh. Like, I think it's a you spend a lot of time stressing and in serious discussion, but we find ways to enjoy each other's company as well. And I think that's important. And challenge is about respectful challenges. Like, people can challenge in a way that is disruptive to your business, and there's people who can challenge in a way that's respectful of other people's opinions but are very strong in their own opinions. And I think the people that you want to have around you are those people.

Yes.

They've got the ability to say see other people's views but not be frightened to come forward and tell you what they think. And that's the type of culture I think, particularly from leadership, but not just leadership, it has to be through the business and the particular— the level underneath your leadership team. So middle management has to have that philosophy as well. And you have to, you have to, um, really sort of garnish and try and create that level underneath. We're spending some time now on what we call our high performance team which sit underneath SLT, the senior leadership team. And that's very much about them, warts and all, this is the business. Tell them everything that's going on within the business and give them an opportunity to have input. Because I think people by and large perform better if they feel like they're having input and they feel like they're being heard. Now you can't agree with everything they want to do.

No.

But you can give the impression that we're taking into consideration what you said and okay, we're not going to do that now, but it's still on the table for future, or we can't do it because of this reason. Did you know? Because a lot of people coming up and you're coming up through a brand lens, say for argument's sake, but you might want to spend $1 million on Fiano next year. There's no point doing that because the grapes aren't here yet. So we can't do that. So that's the type of thing that you're always managing. But if people underneath understand that, generally speaking, they're going to be better performers for your business.

I see. Providing that context, I would've thought would be crucial. Otherwise it's just a flat no.

Absolutely.

Yeah, no, thank you.

Say flat no sometimes though.

Captain's petting on the ass.

Yeah. All right, well, Dean, you've taken the, the long-term strategy. It's seen you through— was it 8-year tenure in the CEO role?

Yes.

Um, as, as you mentioned, the first-time CEO, you, you've been cool, calm, and collected. You've survived and thrived through family business. Now are you ready to, um, See if you can catch him off guard with a couple of your questions. I think you're faulting.

No, I'm not sure.

I'm like, come all undone right at the end. It's all this beautiful and smooth and then crash.

Exactly. Well, hopefully not. But, um, so Dean, in this segment, if you don't mind, I'll probably ask you just 5 sort of, you know, short, short questions, but feel free to expand on these answers. Uh, so I think the first one is, um, do you have a favorite quote?

Do I have a favourite quote? Probably the one I used earlier around it's never as good as it seems and never as bad as it seems. And I think that steers me through my management life and probably life in general.

That's a self-quote too.

This is it. Have there been any books that have inspired you personally or professionally that you've read recently or at all?

A few. I'm a bit of a scanner. I think I have— there's a couple. It's amazing how many times I refer back to an old book, which is, which is, and a well-known book, which is Good to Great, um, the Jim Collins version.

That's great.

I found it when I was packing up my office in, uh, Miller. It was there again, and it was one of the books on the shelf, and I started flicking again. Right, that's right, that's like it. It's so— it's, I think, a good reference. There's another little book I use because decision-making's the I think the biggest challenge in leadership and being— what is it that drives your decision-making? There's a book called— it's called The Decision Book, and it's only a small little book, and I refer to that quite a bit, which has got 50-odd different decision strategies within it.

Okay.

I can't remember the author, just in case you were going to ask me that, but, uh, but it's— but it's something that I refer to quite regularly.

Yeah. Just in terms of decision-making itself, is it— do you— just in terms of approaching a problem, or are you worried about biases, cognitive biases?

What's the Yeah, um, they try and take the biases out as best you can. There'll always be some, and particularly when you're dealing in subjective matters, um, which often can be like— you think of wine and wine quality, they're subjective areas, but you try and take as much of that out as you can.

Yeah.

But as I think you just used the term captain's call before, but I think sometimes you just want to lean in and go, my gut says this. A lot of the things here don't necessarily say that because a lot of the decisions you make are based on history, not future. You don't know what future is. And you go through your brand planning process and your business planning process and you look back and go, well, based on what happened historically, that will happen in the future. But we all know that doesn't necessarily happen. It just gives you a basis to make decision from.

Right. Yeah.

I guess you need some gut, you need some gut call within that.

Yeah. Yeah. I guess the confidence to make a decision where you don't have all the answers or all the data.

Well, that's one of, I think, the early learnings when I became CEO was I— you come into a— so you're generally a manager of some sort who's got one, um, report. You're reporting to a CEO or general manager or whatever it might be. You go to a board and you report effectively to 6 people, and 6 smart people, and you feel like you've got to have the answer all the time and you don't. And the first couple of years I sort of really grappled with that. I was trying to prepare myself for every board meeting and have every answer, and you just can't. It was when you realize it, well, just say you don't admit your vulnerabilities and go away and learn what it is that the question might be and be able to come back. It helps you in making better decisions in the future. You don't have to have the— because you're never gonna have 100% of the information.

Yeah.

None of us know what's going to happen tomorrow. So you just— and COVID helped that a little because I think it gave everyone this huge, wow, things that are uncertain can happen. No one would ever thought a pandemic was going to happen to the scale it did. And when it did, it just— I think it softened everyone a little about the decisiveness of what you had to know into the future. Yeah.

Yeah, that's a good point. One positive out of COVID Every cloud has a silver lining.

Every cloud. Exactly. So you have no positive thoughts?

Yeah, exactly. Walking the walk. Are there any people in life that have really inspired you? Dead or alive?

Um, there are, and probably there's a multitude of people. Uh, from a purely historical feature, Nelson Mandela was probably one of the most inspiring people who's ever lived. And my wife's South African, so I got to understand a little more about, right, the culture over there and the ability to see— we talk about positivity— you could see the light in what was Um, yeah, a very dark period for him and for his country. So I think he's one of the most inspiring people within this world. From a people I know perspective, yet there are. And, um, I think early on in my career, I was— if I think through my 20s and 30s, and I was sort of rolling along, and I wasn't— didn't really— I could never certainly never have a career aspiration to be a CEO. I was, you know, Rolling along, enjoying life and playing sport and whatever. And he'd get to a point and he, and he, he had this ability to, to say, well, you'd talk about, oh well, there was a role, let's say it was a national, national sales manager at the time. And so, oh, it's probably, you know, I'm probably not ready for that. And he always had this, um, ability to say, well, why not?

There's—

why aren't you good enough to do that? And like, just challenge challenges. So it was a bit of a confidence thing for me at the time, but it was also an attitude thing that I didn't have the attitude to probably be there. But he just kept straightening me up. We'll go, well, why can't it be you?

Yeah.

There's, there's lots of people working in roles, but as you— and as you go up the line, you realize that you always think the people above you are smarter and more effective and better. But reality is, if you, if you back yourself and you've got confidence in your own ability and you're prepared to listen and learn You can be every bit as good as them. And you get up there and go, well, actually, I wish I'd known that 5 years ago. It would have made more confidence to pursue. So the one that why not sticks in my head is, why can't it be you?

Yeah, be your second quote.

Yeah, that might be. Yes, that's true.

No, that's really interesting. It sounds like that mentor's been really useful for you in life.

Mentors. Without talking About MentorList specifically, but that's the perfect environment to just listen. Now, I'm very much a believer of listen more than talk, become more effective. And having the sessions with people who are at a similar level with you, totally different industries, but by and large got a lot of similar challenges, it's such a great one, comfort, because CEO role can be quite a lonely role.

Yeah.

But comfort. But 2, you can chew the fat and discuss similar situations and come up with solutions that help you from people who are faced with the same challenges and potentially either found their way through them or you help each other find your way through them.

Yeah, exactly. Good support network.

Yeah, exactly. Very much so.

I guess my last question in this style would be if you could go back to your 12-year-old self you can give yourself?

12-year-old.

12-year-old.

Okay.

Used to be 6, I think.

That's where I was.

12, yeah.

Going back to 12.

Yeah, you're in Melbourne then.

I was in Melbourne then, yes.

Is there any advice that you give yourself?

I think, I think the fun— I think the— you would— I think I would say is you want to do something in life that you enjoy and be passionate about.

Yeah.

Um, so spending— you spend a lot of hours in business, at work, and if you really don't enjoy it or you're doing it as a means to the end, it's a long journey. I think if you're doing something that you enjoy or you have a passion for, then life is a much more enjoyable journey. And, uh, because you spend so much time at work, no point doing it if you're not going to enjoy it. Like, it just defeats the purpose of really going through life. So I would say find something you're really passionate about and then back yourself, be confident.

Yeah.

Which is when you're 12 or young, it's harder to be. But as the further up the line you go, you realize that, you know, you've got every, every good, every good a chance as anyone else to be able to to achieve whatever it is you want to achieve.

Excellent. Thanks, Dean.

All right, you survived.

That's it. That wasn't as hard as I thought.

But there's one more segment which goes for about a minute, which I do time. Yeah. So we'll get a bit of an alarm noise sounding off very shortly, but Alex is going to fire as many questions as he possibly can. And it's basically A/B— not A/B testing, A/B questioning. So you're picking one or the other.

Is this my profile, is it? And at the end of it, I'll realize I've been in the wrong job all my time.

All right, Alex, let me know when you're ready. I'll start the timer and we'll get some answers from Dean.

All right. Hmm. It's been spread across a couple of pages, I see. Here we go. I won't be looking at you.

Okay, that's fine.

Just, yeah, answer whatever. So, Dean, this next segment, just answer please whatever first comes to mind. Okay, don't worry, there's no pressure. Let's just, just have fun.

Okay.

Ready, Dave?

Yep, go, go, go.

All right, early bird or night owl?

Was night owl more early bird now?

Sorry, I did one second.

That's we might restart that.

That's okay, guys.

Okay, Netflix or YouTube?

Netflix.

Early bird or night owl?

These days more early bird. Used to be late owl.

Coast or country?

Coast.

Pinot or Chardonnay?

Oh, depends on the occasion. Both. Can you say both?

Yeah, why not? Books or movies?

Movies.

Fiction or nonfiction?

A bit of both, probably sit on the fence, a bit of both.

Cash or card?

Becoming more card.

Still or sparkling?

Sparkling.

Dogs or cats?

Dogs.

Beach or snow?

Beach.

Home cooking or dining out?

Dining out.

Business to business or business to consumer?

Business to consumer.

Marketing through social media or traditional channels?

Blend of both.

Risk taker or risk averse?

Blend of both.

Watching sports or playing sports?

Was playing sports a lot more and then, uh, But now probably a bit, again, bit of both.

I guess the last one is new world or old world?

Definitely new world. Although there's some very nice old world wines. Thanks, Dean.

That was fantastic.

Bit of on the fence there, Dean. You're sort of a bipartisan.

That's true. But you shouldn't ask such questions that have got positives on both sides. That's true.

Well, just before we sort of wrap, Dean, was there anything we didn't ask today that you sort of thought, oh, Wanted to share that. So it's a chance to create your own and answer your own question.

Uh, no, I don't think so. Yeah, but I'm, I'm finishing up and having a break, and you never know, there might be an opportunity to do something in the future that maybe someone listened to this and thought that's a— he could do a good job. So maybe you can get him.

There you go.

There you go.

Come to work for you.

You want Dean to run your business?

Exactly right. On your board? Yeah, give me a break first. I need a break first.

2024, the new year. But yeah, it must be quite a privileged sort of position to be in. And I imagine after 8 years running a business, it might be quite an emotional thing to be working through and it's a career transition. So yeah, we wish you all the best with that and look forward to supporting you into whatever the new and wonderful adventures that await.

But thank you very much. My Colleagues have said that it's— I've had more farewells than John Farnham. So it's been a 6-month journey of when I've told everyone I was— well, 6 or so months that told her I was leaving. So, uh, it has been a long journey. So, well, it's— the emotion's almost drained out of it by now. It's like, oh, just get to the end. But people are sick of me already. Yes, you said you were going, get out. Now, thanks very much for your time. And as I said, I really enjoy, um, the time spent with Mentor List.

So, no, thanks, Dane. And yeah, thanks for coming on the show and, uh, sharing all that That wisdom. I think there was about probably 2 or 3 self-quotes there that we could pull out as well. And I love the fact that you've had your own quote there as well. Never as good or as bad as it seems. So hopefully today wasn't— hopefully it was as good but not as bad.

Exactly. Perfect living example, wasn't it?

But no, and thank you for always looking for the optimism in things. It's quite refreshing and energizing. So thanks, Dean.

Thank you.

That was a real pleasure.

Thanks for your time today, Dean.

Thank you.

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