Leading with Intention: John Pollaers on Building a Purpose-Driven Career and a Joyful Life

If you can be that much in tune, then you're more likely with your team, instead of telling them what to do, when they ask for input, it'll be, well, why don't you tell me how you are thinking about this problem? Let me tell you how I would think about it, and then you decide what action you're going to take. You know, you're building capability and you're building muscle in the team to take on things they might not have thought to, but you're also building a level of interdependency. So if every director shared how they think when they're at their best, and every executive team member shared it, well then you would have some inkling that on this particular On this particular issue, my thinking may not serve me best. That's a way of accessing other people's kind of genius. I am learning so much all the time from other directors and from other people I'm engaging, because I'm tuning into how they think about things, and I'm seeing the resource they are.

Well, welcome everybody and welcome John Polias to the Mentalist Podcast.

Thanks, David.

It's great to have you on the show. I've been really excited to have this conversation. I've been very fortunate to see you in action presenting to our, whether it's our CEO or C-suite mastermind groups. And I know you've been at one this morning and you've got one this afternoon, so it's great to To catch you.

Sure.

So, John, I was thinking about this sort of introduction this morning, and it's, do I say we've got John Pollier on the show today, he's the University Chancellor, or do I go with one of the other various titles? Maybe just a little bit of setting the scene, you know, tell us about this portfolio of different roles that you have, and then we can start getting into today's theme, which is all about thinking about thinking.

Yeah, well, that's interesting, David. I often do find it hard to work out how to describe myself now, you know, that I've kind of entered into this more portfolio stage of my life. I think I have always been somebody who never wanted to define themselves by what they've done. I want to define myself by what I'm about to do. And so therefore I've kind of avoided it a little bit. You can't, You can't avoid having anecdotes about the things you've done in the past to explain who you are. But I think the thing that's important for me is that in all of the things that I do, there's usually some kind of social purpose outcome that I'm looking for. So at the— as Chancellor of Swinburne University, you know, I want it to be the MIT of Australian universities and to really stand for something different. in chairing the Financial Complaints Authority, which receives about 100,000 consumer complaints a year. It's all around fairness, equality of access, and equity of access to ensure that people's financial welfare is considered. On AGL, on the board of AGL as a director, it's really about ensuring that shareholders' needs are met and community needs are met in the decarbonisation and electrification of this economy. And so, it kind of, it's more from a purpose point of view. When I've chaired government authorities like the Industry and Skills Committee or the Aged Care Task Force Review, it was, you know, with a deliberate focus around, you know, what was, what was, What was the opportunity to have them be better and have more impact than they were having? So it really, I guess it's a for-purpose mindset, how I would probably describe myself in those roles.

And do you find, I mean, in today's theme, thinking about thinking, is, are you, you know, who's John when you are running the Swinburne Uni versus, you know, who is John when you're attending a board meeting for AGL, is it the same John? Or how are you switching off, switching on? Or how does that kind of work?

Yeah, look, encouragement I've given to all of my teams over the years and to my family and myself has been you only have one life and you owe it to the people that you're around to bring yourself fully to everything that you do. So I don't try to be one person here, one person there. I'm mindful around the impact that I want to have, and I choose how I'm going to show up in the conversation, you know, whether on occasions and, you know, to this notion of thinking about your thinking, what kind of orientation I'm bringing to the conversation. But generally you get me, and that will be, you know, very much interested to hear perspective, confident enough to form a point of view and test that point of view. rather than allowing vacuums to exist. And inquiring, but always looking for like a bigger outcome.

Yeah.

For me, at this stage in my career and based on the kind of experiences, I want to be doing things that have— that manifest greatness in the organisations or the people that I have contact with.

Yep.

That's really my focus.

Because I imagine, I mean, when you're going or adding something into the portfolio now, I mean, it must, at some stage in your career, it must have been about building the CV, getting different experiences. And we can talk about when you're running Foster's and Diageo and sort of those different experiences. I think you talk about this bigger outcome and it'd be great to sort of touch on that scenario of what you did with Cola and and rum up in Brisbane. I've kind of forgot my train of thinking, but I mean, this idea of bigger thinking, is that what it's about now when you're looking at roles? So it's not about building a CV, it's actually—

No, I think, well, it's about building experiences. I don't know that it's about building a CV, although I understand the practicality of that as you're moving through your career. You've got to be able to represent what you've done in a way that opens up the next door. I, I've kind of always had a plan. And, you know, when I was just, you know, growing up and we, you know, we lived in the western suburbs of Sydney, our family didn't have a lot. It was a very loving and supportive family. But it was, you know, I knew that I had to do well at school to give myself choices and to, if you like, get out of that situation. And not the loving situation, but the economic situation.

Yeah.

And to have more choice. And so I knew that I needed to, you know, very early do well academically to give myself choice. And then when I got that choice and I started working, I knew that I wanted to be a singer. before I was 35. And then I kind of—

When did you know that?

I just, I didn't know. Well, I just decided that's what I was going to be.

Yeah.

And it's funny because I didn't have much exposure to what that meant, but I kind of knew that that was something. And then when I kind of, you know, got into that position and I kind of got that I was driven by bringing about change. So, you know, that early motivation frankly came from, you know, that's the social circumstances of the family was that, you know, that my father was blocked in the system because he was a migrant and his qualifications weren't.

Yeah.

And so I wanted to be in the system to change it. So if you bring those kind of ideas together, it then meant that I kind of have gone through life wanting to be inside the system to change it. And the bigger the company or organisation I was able to lead, or the bigger the issues that I, well, the bigger the issues I could then address.

Yeah.

And the bigger the impact I could have. And that formed up a view that if you're in a leadership position, you have a responsibility to lead and a responsibility to have impact. And so my kind of search for bigger and bigger business opportunities or leadership opportunities over the years have really come with the excitement around what's the next big issue that I can take on.

Yeah.

That will make it better for people inside the system. And, and so, you know, that, that'd be the way I would have characterised it. What went with that also, I think, David, was earlier on as I, you know, had transitioned through, you know, through the Navy and through my first couple of roles outside of outside of the Navy was I sat down with somebody once and I could see I was kind of on track. You know, I got to being finance director of a larger business, you know, when I turned 30.

Mm-hmm.

And the, you know, I met with an HR leader at the time and He kind of tuned me in a different way 'cause I felt I'd got stuck. I couldn't quite work out what the next move would need to be to be able to get to that ambition. And he simply sat me down and he said, let's just kind of draw a circle. And he drew a big circle.

Yeah.

And he said, tell me what you want to have in your life in 5 years' time. And I kind of sat back and I thought, 'cause I was looking, the answer I wondered was what's the right next job?

Yeah.

He said, well, what do you want in your life in the next 5 years? And I thought, oh, well, I want camaraderie because I really enjoyed that when I was in the Navy. And I enjoy that in sales teams. I want to continue with an international career. I want to have my judgment respected because I was still pretty young.

Yeah.

And there was still a lot of crusty older executives who would kind of just ignore you because of your age. But I wanted to have my judgment respected. And anyway, went around and did those things and then kind of, and then his advice was, well, what are the possible ways to get those things in your life? And the answer was to move sideways and actually step backward. So I stepped off being finance director for—

Yeah.

What was the largest subsidiary in the group at the time in the UK into a sales role. Channel leadership role. Yeah, got me my camaraderie. It got me, you know, a number of those things.

Had you been in sales before?

No.

Okay.

And, and so I thoroughly enjoyed it. I, you know, really enjoyed it. I was off the executive. I didn't feel like I'd given up, you know, from an ego point of view, you know, the kind of the exposure and those things. I just got into it and got the most out of the experience. That then led to another role, which was really a bit of a sideways shift, which led to another sideways shift, which then led to jumping 3 levels up and being the CEO at about 35, 36.

Wow.

And so the, of the Australian business came back out to Australia.

And which business was that?

That was, well, now called Diageo, but used to be United Distillers in those days.

Got it, got it.

So that was a really interesting learning around not just having a hierarchical view of development, but what are the experience and the skills that you want to have in your life and letting that define the next step. And when I stopped worrying about upward momentum, I made faster upward momentum.

Right.

And I think I probably at that point stopped worrying about future in terms of hierarchical. And it then became about really more of an attitude to learning and experiencing and looking at life as a series of building blocks.

Yeah.

And even now, as I look at some of the big challenges that I've had to take on in the AGL campaign to be elected as a director there, is a good example of, you know, that over the years I assembled the right building blocks, including my own inner integrity and sense of self-resilience to take it on and succeed. And so, you know, I'd encourage people to kind of look at their life in terms of those experiences and, you know, Yeah. And what you want to reflect back on in terms of the quality of life that you've been living.

And then just reflecting now, is that circle— has that changed or refined over the years, do you think?

It's kind of— yeah, it has. It has changed a lot over the years in that I guess each time I'm taking something on, I am thinking about what are the big issues that I'd like to be able to influence and You know, when I, you know, zipping all the way forward to, you know, when I thought I was giving up my commercial career, you know, I decided that I didn't want to continue. Well, I was probably at the age where I was too young to go on boards and too old to be a CEO.

Yeah.

And so we decided to start our own business, you know, which is now, you know, through merger, the number 1 in Australia in assistive technology, independent living services.

Right.

And we started out from buying a very small retail store, built it up to 17 superstore locations, significant revenue and people in about 5 years and became the number 3, merged with the number 2. It's now the number 1 and I'm passive Yeah. In that now. But it kind of, the reason that that door opened was I remember saying many, many, many years ago that, you know, that, you know, in my 50s I wanted to have my own business. And, you know, remarkably it happened. And I think that, you know, the thing that's not so remarkable about it is you do make your own luck in life. You know, if you think it and you focus enough on it, you can make it happen.

Yeah.

And so it's not, it shouldn't be a surprise to me that if that's the way I was thinking, that eventually it happened, you know, and I was kind of ready when I was ready for it. But I knew at that stage that, you know, that at that stage I was kind of in my mid-50s and knew that I didn't want to be doing it forever because I also recognized that that I wanted to achieve other things. And this was then a stepping stone to the kind of government policy influence that I wanted to have, you know, through the aged care workforce.

Yeah.

Because the business was in assistive technology for the elderly and the disabled. I wanted to have an impact on government policy in that area. And that's what I then set about to do, you know, through the the Aged Care Workforce Task Force, through the Industry and Skills Committee, and then through input into the Royal Commission process.

Yep.

And so that kind of opened up a lens then on, you know, greater, you know, on how, you know, you can have greater influence over policy and over direction, which kind of got me interested in this area of, you know, as ombuds leading The Ombud Service for Financial Complaint. So we have, as I mentioned earlier on, 100,000 complaints a year.

One of them was actually my brother who had his lovely Jeep stolen out the front of his house. And so there was an issue with the insurance and a technicality, and he's now able to—

To come through AFCA. And we've awarded $1.3 billion of compensation to consumers over the last 4 and a half years. Yeah, it's— and so that got me thinking around the impact that we can have on a much bigger scale societally. And I've already got in my thinking what I want to do next and, and I'll just gradually build the pieces to get there, which will be around dealing with, you know, significant economic and social affairs policy.

Yeah.

But the point of it is, it's, you know, kind of— that might sound grandiose now saying it, But it's not. It's been consistently building the building blocks over time to enable me to take those things on. And with a level of determination that if I, you know, if I commit myself to it, I'm going to make it happen.

Right.

You know, I've learned enough about myself over the years to know that if I'm serious, if I take it on, you know, I will do it.

And it's almost incremental. So, you know, I hadn't sort of heard the backstory about sort of growing up in Sydney and having that aspiration to sort of— I mean, we were sort of talking before the show about always around getting a bigger playing field and changing the game and sort of you've kind of done it personally.

Yeah.

And then even tactically when you're in that FD role, maybe there was a ceiling there and you've worked around that to jump up again. But then it's like, okay, That game's done. Now what's the next bigger playing field? It's almost like, I mean, the theme is thinking about thinking. I guess my question is, when you mentioned in my 50s I want to run a business and then in your 50s you're running a business or at 35, 36, I want to be a CEO and then it's happening. Was that, that was one of 20 aspirations and one came through or was that a very clear, Handful of aspirations? Like, I'm just trying to get a sense of, are you putting a lot of thinking and aspirations out there and then they're coming through and in hindsight it looks like, of course I thought about it, or was it, I just have one goal and I'm going to hit that one goal and I'm dead focused on it?

Well, it's a bit of both those, to be honest, is that I remember when I was, I think I was about 12 and I was sitting on the couch with Dad And we were watching an interview of a, of, oh, just of a young Alan Bond.

Right.

And now although Alan Bond ended up having a very interesting kind of, you know, life and series of events in his life afterwards, this was a young Alan Bond.

Yeah.

And he said, I think they said, what, you know, this, you know, what was the, you know, what was the secret to his success? And he was a signwriter, I think, from memory. And he said, I wanted to buy a ute and I just worked hard and I did everything I needed to do to raise the money to buy the ute before I thought about doing anything else.

Hmm.

And at 12 it just landed with me, the power of that level of focus But I think what I was already hearing, and I can kind of hear it in others nowadays, I was hearing his resolve. And I think that's kind of really, that was probably one of those formative moments. And that I worked out for myself that if you are not resolved, it ain't gonna happen.

Right.

And when I'm listening to young CEOs nowadays or young general managers, by definition, nearly everybody is young now, is the— is I'm listening for their language and I can tell whether they're going to make it happen or they're not going to make it happen.

Yeah.

The same as we can all tell if a politician is going to make it happen or not make it happen. Yeah, it's in the language. All right. And you can be careful in your language and you can be making sure that you're not overcommitting, but you can hear whether there's resolve or there isn't in the language. And so And I've been able to tune into that for myself over time. So yes, if I took it on, I kind of locked it in that it was gonna happen. But I haven't become kind of so focused on it to the distraction of what a good life would look like.

Yeah.

And again, you know, we mentioned my father a couple of times already in this today, but you know, I was, when I was at university and remember I had in my mind I needed to succeed to get out of this economic, Yeah. Situation. And I studied very, very hard. I was very focused on it. And I was doing, you know, I was doing very well at university. And again, this will sound ridiculous for, you know, for people, but I kind of just wanna share it is, so I was getting, you know, I was getting distinctions and I was getting high distinctions. And I said to my father one day, I just, I just know I could, I could get high distinctions in these other areas, but I'm putting all the time in and I do not, and I cannot work out why I'm not able to push it, right? So no matter what level you're at, this applies.

Yeah.

But you can see it seems a bit ridiculous for me to be saying that, right? Why was I not happy with that result? And, and Dad's advice was at the time, Why don't you just back off and spend more time with your friends and go and actually enjoy more of your time while you're at uni? And I did. And I got the results, right? The results came through. And then some years later, I met— I was on a boat and there was a—

A friend?

It must have been a supplier event and there was a 70-year-old director from Volvo and out visiting Australia and we got chatting and he said, he said, so what's your plan, John? And I said, I want to retire at 55, some silly thing like that. And he said, oh, you want to retire at 55? And he said, do you work hard? I kind of stopped and I reflected and I thought, because by then You know, I think I had a young family starting and all those things. And I go, yeah, I am working hard. He said, you're working very hard. And I go, and then at that moment I kind of forgot I was there with him and go, yeah, I am working very hard. And he goes, well, why don't you work till you're 70 and start enjoying yourself, right? And so it was kind of, again, one of those kind of reset moments where you kind of, break yourself out of a maniacal focus and restore some balance into your thinking. And I think I've been lucky to have those people drop into my life from time to time. And that's enabled me to then sustain the push because I still want to have impact, but I want to have impact and a great life. So it's that kind of thinking.

Yeah. And that sort of brings it full circle because I did have a question. One of your opening statements was defining yourself by what you're about to do. Which in my mind I'm like, okay, so you're never finished. And then it's like, okay, but you always got the next thing. It's like, how do you rationalise that this is a good use of time? Because you're never going to be finished. You've got to do the next big impact. And so you're always seeking that. But it sounds like you've been able to build it into now and enjoy what you're doing.

Yeah, I think, look, I don't think we're ever finished, but there's no doubt that you've gotta learn how to prioritise 'cause you can't be bringing this level of energy to everything. And if I was to be asked, like, what has been my greatest failing over time? It's those times where I've brought the same level of urgency and resolve to everything that I was doing.

Right.

Without discerning that this is an area to apply that and this is not, right?

Right.

And I think I've got better at that over the years. So I'm picking my areas of focus. You know, when I was running businesses and I wanted to make them run as fast as I could make them run, then I was applying that energy to everything. And then, you know, over time I learned, no, don't need to do that to everything. These are the areas that are gonna have the greatest impact, focus there. And now in my portfolio choices, if you like, that I make, I'm looking for where that impact can be had and making sure that that's balanced with the right amount of downtime or thinking time or whatever to bring that into balance.

Because I imagine that could be an option just to switch off all the engagements from a commercial perspective and you could just go and live on a beach and enjoy life. But I think there's something there that's clearly Calling you to engage in these type of choices.

In truth, David, I haven't met anybody yet who, you know, that hasn't started out with a view that that would be the best kind of lifestyle to have and very quickly get bored. Yeah, I mean, it's fascinating because if we— if you go back and think about, you know, my days at the very beginning, you know, my career when I might have been thinking about retirement, you know, at 60, 65, because that's what retirement was for our parents' generation, my parents' generation. My God, now I'd be facing 30 years of nothing to do if I retire now.

That's right.

Right. And you can only play so much golf and, you know, and you do find at this point in time where it's a fascinating time because, you know, if you did decide to retire, your mates and friends are likely to continue to be continuing to work now.

That's right.

So you're actually a lot of time on your own. So I don't, I think the whole construct around when you're finished and how you finish is changing. I mean, I've defined retirement for me as not stopping, but being less accountable.

Yeah.

Right? I want to be accountable for everything I do and everything I say, but less accountable for the delivery of the business's performance.

Yes.

But to be able to bring my experience to bear to improve the outcomes for the company through the executive team.

Yeah.

And being accountable for that contribution. As opposed to being the CEO and trying to do that job. So I think it's an evolving world that we're kind of living in. And there's no doubt that in my prioritisation now about where I want to be and the amount of time I'm spending with the family and, you know, I hate spending a minute away from, you know, Louise, my wife. You know, we've been together 40 years. I just so much enjoy her company.

Well, sorry to Louise for tying you up all day today. Yeah, I know.

But the— but I think that the, you know, so I'm kind of clear about these things and I'm kind of clear also that, you know, for so much of my career, you know, I wouldn't have accomplished half of a quarter of what I've accomplished without Louise's support and the support of my family. Yeah. And now it's their turn, right? So if they say they want to do something, I'm yes, right? So it's kind of the balance is shifting, but it's always been for me a case of understanding that, you know, the balance is something you get over time. You don't get it at a point in time. And, and, and that's part of the prioritisation decision that you have to take.

Yeah. So maybe, you know, I think your career, if we talk about maybe some of the, what do they call them, NFP or more philanthropic Would you classify DrinkWise under that? And also the loneliness, you know, the loneliness area that you were making an impact in as well. So how did you get involved in them? Was there a need or you felt like, why are you the one that stood up and initiated things?

Yeah, look, I think they're kind of 2 very different points in time, but if I take DrinkWise as an example, so Essentially what DrinkWise was set up to address was it was essentially to make intoxication as socially unacceptable over a kind of 10-year period as drink driving was already, right? Because the one thing Australia has done exceptionally well is deal with drink driving. And it came about because, you know, in leading, you know, a drinks business, and our focus was all about celebration and celebration of everyday life everywhere.

Yeah.

That there was a big downside to that industry and that, and that not everybody in the industry acknowledged or behaved like they recognized the downside, right?

Yeah.

And so it was a really early formative period. And if that industry didn't want to be parialed, it needed to change. And I think that I kind of, at that stage, I clued into that relatively early and I clued into it largely because I started, I went to a, I was asked as a kind of relatively young CEO then to present at a corporate social responsibility event. Wow.

ESG was— Yeah, it was very— I mean, it's very prominent now, but—

It was kind of, it was very prominent. prevalent now. But in those days it was really that kind of triple bottom line thinking was—

More drinks out the door in the business, more profit. Yeah, I can imagine.

And so, oh, but no, triple bottom line was coming through. So there was kind of, you know, profit, people, and social were themes that were emerging.

Okay.

And the— but the issue at the table in Australia at the time was really around globalization and how Australia sort of stays in the race. So that's what I chose to speak on. And when the questioning came, the questions were on that topic. But one person asked me a question around alcohol abuse. And it was like a really interesting moment because in the moment, the notion of social license kind of really landed.

Mm-hmm.

You know, it wasn't an aggressive question. It wasn't, but But I kind of thought, what was in my thinking that I was talking about this global kind of globalization challenge, but I hadn't thought to talk about that issue? And that issue I can do something about. And so I started up an organization within the industry called Action on Alcohol, which became a bit of an activist group within to try and wrestle to the ground what's the industry's attitude to this. And pulled together representatives from different companies, got support from a couple of other CEOs to do it, went to government, invited them into the conversation. That enabled me to get the big guys in the industry who were reticent to be involved to join. And then I got this extraordinary guy named Paul Gilding, who was the global CEO sometime before of Greenpeace, to be a coach. And we took on the issue of abuse. We travelled around the world over a couple of weeks. We looked at how industry was dealing with research. We kind of got to see how they were not dealing with the research or ignoring or—

Yep.

You know, sidelining the research. And we came back with a point of view. And in that point of view, we looked at a very different model and, and set of principles around alcohol policy and around what, what healthy consumption looked like versus the current way that alcohol was being consumed. And it was all around short and long-term risk and around the— so the longer-term health impacts, but the short-term social impacts. And there were things that could be done to address that problem.

Yeah.

In other words, if you've got people drinking small amounts, they could drink small amounts regularly, but if they're drinking very large amounts infrequently, you know, there was a difference between the outcomes you would get. Anyway, we did the work.

Yeah.

And then I managed to get all the CEOs in the industries to come together, and we had 2 big accord meetings where we then agreed that the industry had to take responsibility. We set up DrinkWise with an independent board. No research was sat upon, it all got shared. We started to get into the issues of underage drinking and the brain impacts of that. And so we just lifted the lid, but we enabled the industry to engage. And that's now been running for a number of years now, and it's been getting good results. And it became the basis then of a World Health Organisation group to address the same matters. So it was kind of driven out of what I would say was, was the early thinking around shared value. So really looking at, you know, industry issues and industry opportunity through a community lens and better understanding. And, you know, what, what we learned through that period of time, David, not to make this whole podcast about that issue. No, no, it's great. But what we learned is that You know, the people who were being interpreted at the time as being anti-industry, they weren't. They were pro-family. They were pro-law and order. They were pro-something. They weren't anti-anything. And so if you start to then say, okay, how do we get behind the positive momentum and the outcomes, then you can make a lot of progress. And in any industry that I've then gone on to kind of do work with, whether it was, you know, bringing the advanced manufacturing sector together, bringing the aged care and disability sector together, the work that I did in bringing vocational education across industry groups together, and even now the work in energy transition that I'm setting out to engage has really been around taking the wrong out and then working out how to get a collaborative effort to solve the problem. And that kind of came out of that early skill, that early area.

Well, it just sort of illustrates this example of this breakthrough thing. It's sort of like you're projecting into the future or you're, you know, in that example, you're looking at sort of, you know, what is, and it's interesting, really early example of an ESG or sustainability type initiative. And it was sort of, I mean, that's kind of before its time. So the theme of the podcast today is around thinking about thinking. So what are you doing that's allowing you to then create these visions and how are you getting— is it the vision that's getting people around it or is that the easy bit and it's really in the activation? Maybe if you could just share some light on that.

I think it's a bit about the way that I come at it. I'm not afraid to have a point of view about the future.

Right.

And so the way that I would describe it is that I, you know, I quickly graze, you know, any kind of turnaround situation I've had to go into or industry problem area, I kind of very quickly engage it so that I can hear what's happening and get a sense of what's happening. And then essentially what the process that my mind goes through is I decide the future that I want. And then I work back from there, right? So intoxication as socially unacceptable in 10 years as drink driving is today, that's a future thought.

Yeah.

Um, at, um, you know, at Foster's, um, if the whole world raised a beer in friendship, the world would be a better place. Well, if that— if you can have that world, you can't have people waking up having done something they didn't intend to do, right?

Yeah.

So you had to—

even another example of organization You just reminded me of that other example of where you got up publicly and said, people are sick of beer. We're moving towards a Bundy Rum type world. Maybe you could just share for the listeners, was that a bluff? Was it actually where things were heading? Because things ended up heading that way. But was that already happening or was it because you made that statement and set that?

A bit of both, right?

Right.

Again, I think it's partly if you want to get discretionary effort. So you come into a difficult situation in a company where they've lost their way or board that might have lost their way. And generally, what you've kind of got to do is 2 things. You've got to try and work out what's in the current thinking that's getting in the way of them moving forward.

Yeah.

And people are pretty good at telling you their gripes pretty fast if you're kind of prepared to get it out, you know, create the opportunity for that conversation. You know, quite often, you know, what I'll do is it might be in a room and I'll just, you know, could be with the board or usually with the board, it's kind of one-on-one conversations that I then pull together and then re-present. But with an executive team, you know, lots of posters around the wall of the things that are getting in the way to then gradually understand and get them to see what their current thinking is. And it could be that, you know, that they don't like their customers. It could be that they don't feel like they have enough resource. It could be things that are getting in the way of their thinking. For a board, it might be they don't trust management or they don't believe in the industry opportunities. opportunity, or they have a different kind of perspective on execution. And often these, the clarity over what those issues are get lost, gets lost in frustration, 'cause everybody's kind of dancing around the issue and it gets complicated.

Yep.

And then the simplicity of what they need to address is lost in that mix. So by pulling it, by getting everybody to kind of get it out there, You can, you can do 2 things with, you know, with boards. It's often a case of going, right, I've heard you, these are the themes that, that, that I'm hearing, and this is exactly how and when we'll deal with it. So now I'd like you to set aside that angst and that aggravation and let's work, work it through.

I mean, AGL must be a great complex scenario and example you'd be working through at the moment.

That's the kind On each of the boards, there's been an element of that, right?

Yeah.

And look, you can't win everybody. And so, you know, you try to do that in a way that kind of breaks out the thinking. But at the end of the day, you've just got to then as a CEO and as a chair, take a position and then start to align everybody around that outcome. And so, By putting a point of view of the future out there, that gives people a sense of that it's possible. It is possible to create a bigger outcome and future for the business, while we we focus on the urgent issues that need addressing, that give us the you know that you know some that create and free up resources to to invest in areas of opportunity, or that build particular capability, or that unclear decisions that have been blocked. You know, if you've got a bigger view, you can get the discretionary effort to really do that work and do that work quickly.

Yeah.

And that's really what it's about. So that notion of deciding the future that you want and then working back from there, you know, is both about galvanising against something bigger, but it's unlocking the immediacy of effort that you require to get there. Putting a thought out there for the future and not doing what I've just described Is kind of like that. That's unreal and you won't get the outcome. Makes people feel warm and woolly and they like to drift into the bigger, bigger long-term conversation. But if you don't have that long-term conversation combined with immediate action to get you on that pathway, oh, then you're kidding yourself. Yeah, because it ain't going to happen.

Well, it makes absolute sense because the long-term view can be a little bit I was going to say unmotivating because it's like, well, that's the big view, that's huge. And okay, back to today, I'll get back to work. But if you're then putting something in front, this is the immediate thing and you can show the connection to that long term.

Well, and you can demonstrate that you're going to back people to make decisions and you're going to be there even if they get it wrong. Right. I often say that it doesn't matter. I'd rather you make a decision and get it wrong, provided as soon as you're aware that it's wrong, you do something about it.

Yeah.

Right. And so, you know, you want movement. You don't want people to be so afraid to make a decision because they're going to get it wrong.

Yeah.

And I think sometimes, you know, like, you know, the, the thing that I would kind of alert people to watch out for is You know, if you're going to empower people, that doesn't mean walk away. If you empower people, stay close enough to make sure they've got what they need, including coaching and training and development support, but don't be so close that you're getting in the way of their ability to exercise that empowerment. And that's the kind of the rhythm, because everybody's always learning no matter what level.

Yeah.

You know, all the way through to CEO, you're learning. CEOs are learning all the time. Directors are learning all the time. Chairs are learning all the time. The minute they don't get that they're learning, they shouldn't be there anymore. And so it's really incumbent upon us all to see that we owe it to each other to contribute to each other's growth and learning, even at those most senior levels.

And just sort of in terms of growth and learning, thinking about sort of mindset, I mean, you're clearly in a certain type of mindset and then you're creating this certainty around these visions. What advice do you have for someone around their own internal thinking, internal dialogue, monologue that they're running? Yeah, maybe if you could just, if there's things you do, obviously something's working, so it'd be great to dig into that.

Look, a couple of simple steps, right? I think firstly, take the time to just jot down the things that you have accomplished. You know, so often we don't allow ourselves to kind of acknowledge our wins. And so just write down what you believe. It doesn't matter what anybody else thinks. What do you think that you've actually accomplished?

That's right.

And then, and this will sound like, you know, like, why would you do that? But then you'll write down 3 or 4 things. try and write down 70 things, like really go for it. And, and, you know, and, and, and have the bank account, you know. Often in, you know, in organisations, if you focus on what hasn't been achieved, you're much better off starting every meeting with what have we achieved, right? And build the bank account, get that positive, positive momentum. I'll come back to it, but that was really important.

Yep.

You know, when we when we ultimately were under a hostile takeover attempt for Foster's was focusing on positive. I'll come back to that if you wish to, David.

Yeah, great.

But when you— so list those things and then just pick 2 or 3 of them and say— and ask yourself, what was I thinking? What was I saying to myself at the time that I accomplished those, right? And generally what that will point to is your genius. You know, like what is your thinking when you are at your best, right? So for me, it's things like create the biggest possible playing field. It'll be how can I make, create the conditions for people to be their best so that I can be at my best? You know, there'll be some things you'll say to yourself.

Hmm.

Capture those and then from time to time go back and extend that list 'cause it does evolve over time. But you then have a way of reminding yourself what you are like when you are at your best. And then by definition you'll know when you're not. And I think tuning into that is—

Yeah.

What I kind of often refer to as thinking about your thinking. You know, quite often you'll observe something, you'll make a decision and you'll move to action. Well, observe and then stop for a minute and think, how am I gonna think about this? Then make your decision and then move to action. It doesn't have to slow it down that long, but just that moment—

Yeah.

Will enable you to bring a bit more of your genius to the table. And I think the other thing that I would say is if you can be that much in tune, then you're more likely with your team instead of telling them what to do, when they ask for input, it'll be, well, why don't you tell me how you are thinking about this problem?

Right.

Let me tell you how I would think about it. Now then, you decide what action you're going to take. And in that way, you're actually bringing out that kind of, you know, you're building capability and you're building muscle in the team to take on things they might not have thought to. But you're also building a level of interdependency. So if every director shared how they think when they're at their best and every executive team member shared it, well then you would have some inkling that on this particular issue, my thinking may not serve me best. You know, David's thinking might be better for me, or Henrietta's thinking might be better, or somebody. So that's a way of accessing other people's kind of genius.

Right.

And I can tell you, this is what the thing, the reason why I, just love diversity and why inclusion is such a profound concept is that I am learning so much all the time from other directors and from other people I'm engaging. 'Cause I'm tuning into how they think about things and I'm seeing the resource they are. And if you're doing that, then you don't have to listen to your own voice all that often, to be honest. You contribute when you can contribute And your thinking will add value. And you're tuning into other people's thinking when they're adding value. And that enables you to sustain the kind of commitment to a future outcome that I'm kind of talking about.

That is a— I'm really glad I asked that question, John. I've never sort of thought about it that way. And you do run the risk of if you're assessing yourself to your future, what you're going to do in the future. Having a simple step like that brings appreciation, gratitude, because the things you're no doubt doing today were a big impossible dream 1, 2, 3, whatever years ago. If you think back to when you're growing up in Sydney and maybe going into university, to think that you'd be CEO at 35 or running your own business at 50, I mean, these are big ambitions, which—

Yeah.

Yeah, I think. And so do you find that those 3 to 4 things, so writing them down, you mentioned that they change over time. Yeah, maybe if you could just share where is it sort of for you at the moment? I'm not sure if you've run this exercise, but are you noticing that shifting or?

Yeah, no, definitely. I think there's a lot more thinking now that, so if I was kind of to draw it as a, as a mind map, it was definitely about maybe a third of the size that it is today and it's built up over time. But the meaning has also moved over time. So if I think, I often think that if you're going to have a purpose-led organisation, and as I said, I've tried to do that.

Yeah.

I've got it wrong a number of times over time. There's definitely We've all got to kind of contend with that. But I don't— if I failed at something, I don't see myself as a failure. I call it, I failed. Now, did I do everything I could possibly do? And if not, now what will I do? Right?

Yeah.

So I kind of have a relationship to failure that is empowering, not disabling. And but that's not to say that I haven't been disabled from time to time.

Right.

But I think that you kind of— you're making a commitment and so it will evolve. But I'd encourage mostly all leaders, if you want to create a purpose for the organisation, and you do, so you say, this is what we see as the human truth that our business is really there to address. So take it up to that level. Why do we exist? So in the drinks industry, if it's really about celebrating life every day, what does that really mean from a purpose point of view? If in energy transition, it's really fundamentally around electrification and decarbonization to create a kind of different future for our planet, what does that really mean from a purpose perspective? But then you need to have a conversation with your team members to say, well, when you're at your best, what is it that you see your— how does your purpose emerge?

Yeah.

What is it for you? No matter what age you are, because it does change, but at this point in your life, how would you describe your purpose? Why do you think you're here? Oh, I don't know. Well, what do you get most satisfaction out of? What are the things that really lights you up? What do you look forward to? All right, so that means your purpose is defined in a particular way. How can we as an organisation help you achieve your purpose through our purpose. And then you're creating a real connection and a sense of belonging. Now, that might seem that if you've got a lot of employees in the company, a big task to do, but it's not because the span of control in an organisation means that every line manager has maybe up to 15 direct reports. Do it team by team, have that conversation. And then as people connect to that purpose, you'll get the discretionary effort, but you might improve the potential of delivering that outcome because you've connected everybody all the way through. So to your point about how's it changed, I've done that over the years and I've done it to myself over the years. So if in my early days my purpose was about freedom, right? You can't grow up where I grew up and not find yourself being bullied on the way home from school every day.

Yeah.

So for me in the early days when I wanted to get inside the system to change it, it's 'cause I wanted to create freedom. But remember I said I wanted to escape the economic kind of limit of where I was living.

Yes.

And so really it was about my freedom. So that was early on, that would've been the focus. As I got into my middle career and from CEO on, it was really about the freedom of the people that I worked with. So how could I help them do their— take on bigger things? How could I free that up? Or where I saw that people were oppressed in some way, how could I free them up? Where I saw the issue with abuse, alcohol abuse, how could I free that up?

Yeah.

And then over the years, as I've taken on bigger and bigger, it's then been moving to how can I free up the system? How can we make it work better? And now I describe it, and I've kind of deliberately chosen lofty language at this end because I talk about now that I want to manifest greatness. in the things that I do and things that I have contact with. It's not to be lofty for the sake of making, you know, the impact that that word would have on the people that I'm talking to, because it's meaningless to other people. What's important is it's setting for me a standard that says that, you know, just creating freedom is not enough anymore. It's creating freedom and creating something bigger is the standard I'm setting out for myself. So I'd only use that word in this conversation because we're in this conversation. It's not a word I bandy around, but that's the kind of way it's developed over time. So can you imagine therefore the thinking and the leader that I need to be to deliver that is different to what it was back then?

Absolutely.

But I will make a comment on this is This is my way of thinking, and therefore by sharing it, it gives other people access to the way that I think. It's not the only way, it's my way, and there are other ways, and there may be other better ways. And so when, if I'm asked by, you know, as I have been asked by, you know, even, you know, some of my sons, who are in their kind of late 20s and, well, late 20s and 30, how I would think about a particular issue. Well, I have to stop and think about my thinking because am I gonna answer that now as a 62-year-old kind of business whatever, or do I answer it as I would've answered it in my late 20s and early 30s?

Right.

And I deliberately give Both answers.

Okay.

Because the answer today is very different. And I can take the point of view that I can take today because I've got kind of the experience and the kind of— I built the network and the leverage and the trust and et cetera to be able to do things. Doesn't mean I don't have people who would try to pull that down if they could. But I'm doing those things. But at that point in time, I had to really think differently because I was carving that space out, building— remember I said earlier on about having my judgment respected?

Yeah.

I was having to do things to get that outcome. So I share both now because it is different. And that's important. So if you're going to take on this notion of really giving some thought to how you think, you really have to be prepared to sort of say, well, it's only one way. I'll share with you how I think about it, but here's how I've thought differently about it over time. And it's now up to you to think about how you want to think about it. That kind of, that's how I would position it.

Fantastic. Oh, well, thank you, John. I could ask you questions all day, but I know we've got to get you back for another CEO Mastermind being our guest mentor today. But I've got a couple of short answers and then we'll finish up with Probably a rapid, what we like to call rapid fire. But maybe is there a quote or a statement that you sort of, you know, you've held onto that you'd be willing to share?

I'd say that there's a poem that I have kind of used and thought a lot about over the years. And that is, heretic rebel, a thing to flout. They drew a circle to exclude me out. But love and wit, the will to win, I drew a circle to include them in. So, you know, if you want to change the rules of the game and you want to create a bigger playing field, then you've got to work out how to draw a circle that includes people in.

Right.

And that will create a kind of a great, great sense of power and capacity. So that'd be my quote.

That's fantastic. And so relevant to what we're talking about today. And you've probably already touched on this in a few different ways, but is there any specific advice you'd give your younger self?

I think I worked out, it's supposed to be rapid fire, isn't it? But I think I would—

We'll get to rapid fire.

Yeah, I would, I worked out a few years ago that if I look at everything I've accomplished and tried to define, you know, like I could get to my thinking, but what sat behind my thinking? then a sense of responsibility, accountability, and resolve have sat very high. Enjoyment and fun have not been motivators, right?

Right.

But I have had fun and enjoyed everything I've done. It just wasn't the motivator, right? And I think what I'm kind of saying to myself now is, but what if it was? What if enjoyment was a motivator How might I have thought differently about things?

Yeah.

So I'm toying with it now. So I'm in kind of the things that I'm taking on now, I'm practicing a little bit with how do I choose those parts of my thinking when I take things on to say enjoyment's gotta feature a little bit more highly. So I think that'd be it. I think it'd be go even further behind the thinking and just now think a little bit about that, Try something else, exercise. Yeah, because sometimes I do find myself going, I just wish I didn't take things on so much. And so I'm just toying with now, well, what might the shift be? So the bottom line is I would say to myself, and I think I got it back in those days, but life is an ongoing exercise of crafting and you're crafting yourself.

And great that you got that advice from your from your father as well around enjoying the hours. Yeah, that's right.

Well, it's funny, there it was and I used it, but I never then made it core.

Yeah. And now you're passing it back again, which is fantastic. Yeah.

It doesn't mean I'm not a fun guy to have a beer with or anything.

No, no, I can be first testament to that. Certainly enjoyed having you at some of our social events. So favorite book or theme or topic that people should look at getting across?

Look, well, it's funny because I really, I love I love reading long books, so I love reading series. And I do like reading things that take you a little bit outside of the current reality of the world. But no, I think the book that I probably would think was one that would shift your thinking was a book by Paul Kingsnorth called One No, Many Yeses. And it really deals with the underground movement for global change. And how underground movements have actually been effective over time. And it forces you to think about— we just assume that our current political and economic models are the right models, 'cause that's what we've grown up in.

Right.

But it forces you to think a little bit about when you're looking at social impact and the economic conditions of people all around the world, That, that may not— that our worldview may not be the worldview that's going to bring about the change. So it's not to be radical around economic or social structures, but, but to kind of allow yourself to be the no from time to time to really explore what that might look like. Yeah, that makes sense.

It does.

It does.

Oh, thank you for, for sharing. And John, just before we get into Maybe the rapid fire. Is there any questions I haven't asked today that you're like, Dave, you got to ask me about X? If I didn't ask you about the thinking about thinking or the simple steps, jotting down those things, I'd be very disappointed. So is there anything else that—

Well, I was going to tell you that Quick Foster story.

Oh, great.

Yes, definitely. So at a point in time when we were doing, we had the hostile takeover and we kind of were prepared for it. And so I think I described it at the time as it wasn't hostile, it was a slow seduction because we We kind of didn't at any point get kind of knocked off our sense of confidence and worth of the company.

And who was trying to buy?

It was SABMiller and they did. The transaction ultimately went through. But when it went through, it went through with a very, very positive mindset. But all through that period, I would bring the top 200 people onto a telephone call once a week and we would simply rapid fire share what had been accomplished in the week before. And you do it a few times and people are slow, but then pretty quickly the hour just gets sucked up with positivity.

Right.

And the reason that we did it was to have everybody focused on, rather than worrying about what could happen with a new owner, but was to be focused on continuing to be their best and put their best foot forward so that regardless of what the ultimate ownership of the business was, that the business was delivering results, that they were delivering results, and that their futures would be positive because they were delivering the outcomes. And so that investment in positivity ultimately led to, I think everybody was offered their roles who wanted them, and quite a number went on to have wonderful international careers, which was one of the opportunities that was available. So I think that that was that point I made earlier on about kind of injecting positivity. Yeah.

I mean, 200 people condensed into an hour, that is rapid fire.

Yeah, it was.

Yeah.

And it was funny and I got energized because when you're going through that kind of campaign and you've got to keep yourself up, it's amazing how your team are a source of energy.

Well, plus, you know, if I was in the team, I know that Monday's coming up and I know I need to have something.

Yeah, I know. That's good.

I better get cracking.

It might have been that behind it. Yeah, there was a method to the madness.

I'll let the other 199 peer members know that I'm, yeah, didn't do anything this week. But yeah, that's fantastic. Oh, thank you for sharing that. Yeah, and I guess so that was when Foster's was a whole entity and then it became Treasury and—

No, no, that was after the demerger.

After that, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Very good. All right, we're about to move into rapid fire, John. So I'll just get my watch for 1 minute. The idea is just one or the other.

Right.

Some people like to break the rules and just say both or neither or something else. So we'll keep it open for you. But yeah, we'll try and catch you in your subconscious. So first one's probably an obvious one. Swinburne or RMIT?

Swinburne.

Bachelor's or short course?

Short course.

Short-term gains versus long-term impact?

Long-term impact delivered in the short term.

Gut instinct or careful analysis?

Instinct.

Red or white wine?

Red.

Driven by pursuit of profit or social impact?

I think you can have them both.

Soft skills or tech skills, technical skills?

Absolutely both.

Nature or nurture?

Nature.

Proactive or reactive?

Proactive.

Luck or planning?

Planning.

Continuous learning or proven methods?

Continuous learning.

Long-term planning or agile adaptation?

Agile adaptation.

Go with the flow, plan every step?

Adaptive. Agility.

Future defined or future unknown?

Future chosen.

Fantastic. Thanks, John. I don't think we caught you off guard there. It's just a bit of fun to finish up. But no, thank you for sharing your thinking and talking about thinking about thinking. It sort of sounds a little complex. When I was telling someone about what we're talking about today, I was like, well, you're going to talk about thinking about thinking. And they're like, okay, see how it goes. But it's been a fantastic conversation, John. Thanks for sharing. And just the idea of learning how others think and, you know, being at this phase and having these successes, but still really being committed to being a lifelong learner and this idea about learning about how others think. And I think it's fantastic.

Terrific.

And yeah, thank you, John. Thank you for your time today.

Thanks, David. Really enjoyed it. Thank you.

That was awesome.