Legacy, Leadership, and Life Lessons: Navigating Challenges with Andrew Demetriou

the more we stayed true to our values, the more profitable we were. And we were incredibly profitable. I used to say to people 3 things. The executive team stayed together for 9 years and we never lost one. And that created a lot of continuity. We were outcome-driven. Some of the people worked extraordinary hours and they'd start late. Sometimes the executive would say, are you gonna exercise your 9 votes in this meeting? And sometimes I did.

Hi, Dave here. Hope you're enjoying the show. Thank you for tuning in. If you like what you're hearing, you wanna become part of the conversation, please just click the show note link and we'll connect there. Bye. Okay, well, thank you, Andrew, for your time today. We've got Andrew Demetriou here as our guest in our podcast studio. We've had Andrew speaking to some of our CEO and executive groups here in Melbourne and across the country. We're very lucky to have him in conversation here today on the show. So Andrew, welcome to the show.

Thanks for having me, David.

That's great, great to have you here. And we're doing a little bit of preparation just before the conversation. You're like, just fire them at me, Dave. So here we go, mate. Yeah, sort of wanted to start talking about, you know, the expansion, or I guess looking at strategy from a sort of exponential perspective. And just looking at what you did, uh, well, if I took the example of the AFL, um, in terms of broadcast rights, in terms of expanding the game, in terms of, you know, the Sydney and Brisbane expansions. But maybe, maybe if you could talk through, you know, what is your thinking as you're going into maybe a strategic planning round? And, um, yeah, maybe I'll start there.

Uh, well, I was pretty blessed to put together a a very young, enthusiastic, energetic, bright executive team who were all very hungry and all bought into the values proposition that we were trying to articulate at the AFL.

Yep.

And part of that was we all bought into the fact that we wanted to make significant change, leave the game in better shape than we found it, leave a legacy for the game. In order to do that, we had to not be satisfied with where we were at one point in time. So the strive for excellence, the pursuit of being better tomorrow than we were today. If it ain't broke, fix it anyway. That was a philosophy that we adopted. So, you know, the expansion of the competition.

Yeah.

Getting as much reach out of the game to as many people as possible throughout the country. If we wanted to be a truly national game, we had to do that. So we had to put another team in New South Wales, another team in Queensland to be truly national. And part of that was also securing a broadcast deal that got more eyeballs onto the game as well as people attending the game.

Yeah.

So, you know, the broadcast rights deal we did in conjunction with the expansion allowed us to have 9 games that were shown live and simulcasts on pay TV. So if you wanted to watch a game, there was no reason why you couldn't.

If you—

whether you wanted to watch it on free-to-air or on a combination of pay and cable, you could watch streaming through Telstra.

Yep.

You watch it on your phone, your iPad, your whatever device you wanted to watch it at any time, and even on demand if you wanted. So it was terribly important as part of the strategy to get the game in as many states as possible. 2 teams in New South Wales and Queensland, more eyeballs watching the game, which would translate into more people attending the game and grow all our revenues off the back of all that. And thankfully it worked.

Yeah. And when you talk about, you know, bringing this sort of young, energetic team together, um, who were you looking for? Were you looking for people outside of the industry? Like, how do you just sort of pull this, this team together? Where did they come from?

Well, I started off on the basis that we we had some talent from within and they had to be given an opportunity. So I moved a couple of people on when I started, promoted a couple of people, gave a couple of other, um, individuals some new opportunities on the management team. So for example, Ben Buckley, who was our General Manager of Commercial Operations, I gave him a new title and said, you're going to be General Manager of Broadcasting and spend the next 2 and a half years really focusing on getting the next broadcast rights outcome we need. And in order to do that, we'll spare no expense. So I want you to get in under the hood of how broadcasters think, understand the valuation, understand production costs, go overseas, learn about the new technologies that are going on. What does broadcasting look like in the next 5 to 10 years? Where's it going? And bring all that back and just focus on that and nothing else. And he did, thankfully. So putting that management team together was a crucial part in delivering the strategy because I started off on the basis that I wanted to employ as many smart people, hungry people, people who had the same values as I had. And I was happy to employ people that were smarter than I was. And we did. We had a lot of young, smart people who were hungry for success. And willing to buy into the proposition that we wanted to leave the game in better shape than we found it.

Thanks, Andrew. Can you talk to us a little bit more about the values that you shared with your team?

Well, they were pretty easy because our values that I've carried, I've tried to carry throughout my whole life, and they were about, all about transparency, honesty, acting with integrity, staying true to our values, never compromising our values. Um, and we were, we were, you know, contrary to what being in public life, you're always accused of hiding things and, and not telling the truth or leaking and all that sort of business. But we, we knew that we, if we stayed true to our values, never compromised our values, we would always act in the— with the utmost integrity and with the utmost honesty in everything we did. And, you know, interestingly, the more we stayed true to our values, the more profitable we became. I often tell people that I can't think of a meeting I went to, a management meeting where it was every Monday morning, or a board meeting where the word profit was discussed. We didn't just— we didn't talk in those terms. We didn't talk about EBITDA, ROI, profit. We just talked about staying true to our values. And interestingly, the more we stayed true to our values, the more profitable we were. And we were incredibly profitable. You know, our whole Our reason for being was to generate as much revenue as possible to distribute to our stakeholders, to our clubs who are our major shareholders, to the players who are a major stakeholder. Keeping the game affordable allowed us to keep the public able to attend football at a very reasonable price, particularly for children. And we were a very profitable business, but profit wasn't at the forefront of our mind. It was always about staying true to our values.

Yeah, and that must have been interesting as well when dealing with the media, probably from the player's standpoint and how you're managing that and how you're helping them to manage that as well.

Well, you know, people who have worked in the industry know that AFL football, which is the largest sport in this country, attracts probably somewhere between 1,600 to 1,800 accredited media between journalists, program people, um, production people and so forth. And when you think about it, we've got 800 players. That's almost 2 per player.

Wow.

So the, the desire to be first and first breaking a story is very important. And sometimes it comes at the expense of getting things accurate. And the more— there's significant increase in social media, significant increase in in instantaneous stories being broken through Twitter and so forth really put a lot of pressure on everyone in the industry. And it became even more important to become very, very transparent and honest because you couldn't hide anything.

Yeah.

You know, I played football in the '80s and lots of things that occurred would never have been exposed through phone cameras or stories breaking instantaneously within the next 5 seconds and spreading like wildfire. Things in fact probably were covered up back in those days, but you couldn't do that these days. So it was terribly important to always be transparent. And a lot of time's been spent educating players, educating club officials, educating coaches, educating staff about the pitfalls of social media, and educating them about being transparent and honest. Because if you, for whatever reason, decide that you want to try and cover up something, it won't last. You'll be exposed and you'll pay a heavy price.

Yeah, I can imagine.

And even with the media, Andrew, I know you would sort of hold them to account. Was that part of your remit? If they got something wrong, you would—

It wasn't part of my remit. Look, I mean, I'm grateful to the media because the media has been one of the key drivers in the success of the code. So a combination of Television through News Limited support, through Foxtel, the Herald Sun, and all their newspapers throughout the country has helped grow the game. So the media has played a significant part— radio, pay television, streaming. If not for the media, we wouldn't have the code. I mean, people, other sports would die for the coverage AFL gets.

Yeah, absolutely.

You know, and I used to say to my management team, who sometimes would get affected by negative media, 95% of the coverage of the game is positive.

Right.

And you've got to just take some of the negative criticism as part of being in the caper. And sometimes people would be down on opinion pieces and I'd say to them, they're just opinion pieces, doesn't mean they're right. You don't have to agree with them. But, you know, we had golden rules at the AFL and that was never to lie to the media.

Yeah.

Always return calls to the media. And if they got anything wrong, we would hold them to account.

Mm.

So, you know, um, I never in my time in the AFL picked up the phone and rang an editor to influence a story or pull a story or try to get a story edited. It served no purpose. Had a good relationship with the media proprietors. They knew how we operated. We were very transparent. I think we enjoyed a good relationship, but it Didn't always— wasn't always positive. And sometimes you get belted and you get negative media, but that comes with all the good media.

Yep. Yeah. And you mentioned sort of, you know, the code, the AFL code. And if I think about growing up over this time and having the kids sort of go through different sports, I mean, AFL is, you know, the code in terms of growth, in terms of Ozkick, you know, It used to be in Sydney, you'd never think about following AFL or even Brisbane. It was all about the rugby code. And now potential further expansion with Tasmania. But how has— so what did maybe the AFL code do differently than maybe some of the other codes to really get that adoption of the sport?

We've done a number of things differently, but I think one of the most significant elements of our growth was the introduction of Auskick, which started off as Vickick. So, you know, the concept that you'd introduce boys and girls between 5 and 9 to a game of football on a Friday night or a Saturday morning for an hour, which meant they would bring along at least one parent and engage in a physical activity for an hour and get a kit bag with a football and a drink bottle and a bit of memorabilia. You know, those children got introduced to the game in the early '90s. And we'd get them to fill in forms about which team they'd follow. And then those, they'd be tracked. So after they'd play Auskick, hopefully they'd get into a junior football club and play the game. And if they weren't good enough to play the game, they'd get involved in the club in some capacity. They'd be a volunteer or they'd be an umpire.

Mm.

And they would be tracked. And we would track them through to their teens and through to their adult lives. And invariably, they'd become members of a football club or a viewer on television or a purchaser of merchandise or a purchaser of a membership.

Yep.

Or a player, a participant in the game, an official or an administrator. So we've tracked those people for the better part of 30 to 35 years. It's been one of the reasons why 48% of the attendees are women. Because, you know, the game at that junior level is introduced to boys and girls. And I think that's one of the most successful strategies that the AFL implemented long before my time. Yeah. They've got to take great credit for that. But the tracking and the monitoring of those people and converting them into viewers, spectators, purchases of merchandise, purchases of memberships. participants has seen the growth grow exponentially, to be honest. Yeah.

Yeah. And it's almost like a sleeper, not a sleeper, but it's like the investment now for this sort of long-term, it's almost like a life cycle of a football.

It's a generational investment. And we always used to talk about building from the bottom up. And that's absolutely true. I mean, the game, It gets introduced at that junior level. And that's what happened in New South Wales with Auskick. And got into— it was very difficult to get into a lot of the private schools 'cause they were rugby union orientated or rugby league. But we've persisted and we've seen significant growth in New South Wales and Queensland by the introduction of Auskick programmes, junior football programmes.

Yeah.

Boys and girls getting involved. And it's all on the basis of building from the bottom up.

You mentioned before, um, you know, in the board meetings you'd never mentioned the word profit. Um, you know, I've heard you sort of talk about changing the conversation at the board. Can you maybe elaborate on, um, you know, what you sort of— I think you're— I recall you sort of sat in on a few board sessions before you started and you're talking about, you know, the players or what was happening in the actual games.

Yeah, well, I've often told this story. Um, When I was appointed by my then chairman, the late Ron Evans, and he sat me down and said— he said 3 things. One is, congratulations, you've got the job. Now I want you to understand that we're here as custodians of the game. We get to borrow the game, have a lend of it, and hopefully leave it in better shape than we found it. So that was about legacy. He then said, I want you to go away for 2 weeks with your partner and come back and tell us what you really want to do with the business. Not what you told us in the interview, because everyone says what we want to hear in the interview.

That's right.

And I thought that was an interesting insight because it's probably true. And he said, the third thing I want you to think about is your successor. And I said, um, well, that's a funny thing to say. I haven't even started yet. I start in October. We're now in June, July. He said, well, if you're true to your word about leaving a legacy, You need to think about succession plan. The board wants you over a number of years to develop options for the board to choose your successor if you believe in continuity and legacy. He was right. I am going away for a couple of weeks. I came back and went to the board and said, I said to the chairman actually, I said, look, interestingly, I have had a good think about it. One of the things I want to do is change the executive team up. Get some young hungry people in. So I went through that discussion with him.

Yeah.

But I said, interestingly, I've noticed that every meeting I attend with management and with the board, we always talk about the game. Now I know we're a football code, but we talk about players, we talk about rules, we talk about umpires, we talk about the tribunal, we talk about scoreboards, we talk about grass growing, we talk about goalposts, we talk about kickouts. We're forever talking about the game and we've got all these stakeholders that want their pound of flesh. We're a bit like a government. We've got to get revenue in and distribute it fairly and equitably and try and keep as many stakeholders as happy as possible. And we had a number of stakeholders. We had, of course, the clubs who are the shareholders.

Yep.

Players who are a significant stakeholder. We had broadcasters who wanted their pound of flesh. We had venue operators who wanted their pound of flesh. They want the best games. And then in the best time slots. We had governments that wanted their pound of flesh. Can you play on this weekend, on this night, combination with a race car event the next day? We had sponsors that wanted their pound of flesh. Can I get my signage on the ground and the signage in the right camera angle? We had corporate partners that wanted their pound of flesh. Can we have events that we need to have around the ground? Can we get— people into the rooms before the game. And the most important stakeholder was the public, the fans. We had to appease them. So I went to the chairman and said, look, in order to do that, what I want to do is shift the emphasis away from 80% football, 20% business to 80% business and 20% football. I want to get in and under the hood of every commercial transaction we've got, understand how the venues operate, understand how sponsors operate, understand how broadcasts operate and generate more revenue so we can distribute to our stakeholders and impact the game. If we do that, the game will improve. And we did. We went from 0.5 strategic planners to 5 strategic planners when I left.

Yeah.

We set up a government relations division. We set up an infrastructure division. We set up our own events. We took over, we removed third parties and intermediaries from a lot of our commercial operations agreements. And we just started to make— and then we set up our own broadcasting team, which I said earlier. And we just started to generate significant revenue streams. And what we did is we ploughed it back into the stakeholders. The clubs got more distribution, the players got more. We were able to invest more in the game, invest more in research in the game, invest more in technology enhancement, invest more in government relations and get stadia built and infrastructure built.

Yep.

And it was a significant turning point.

Is that like— how did you feel? Like, that's quite a luxury, having 2 weeks off to then actually have a truthful conversation with your new employer. I doubt that— that I haven't heard of that scenario happening very often. And it could have been a different trajectory if you didn't have that headspace to think through that sort of clear strategy and set that intention. I mean, how did you sort of— I mean, it's probably thinking back a little now, but how did you think it'd be received before you sort of said, this is what I want to do?

Look, I was lucky in my professional life to work, particularly the AFL, to work with 2 fantastic chairs.

Right.

Ron Evans was a man who— the highest integrity, great values, great family man, a successful individual in his own right but very modest about his achievements. And we were completely aligned in what we wanted to do and what we wanted to do as a code and what we wanted to do with the game. And I bought into his values proposition, he bought into mine. And the relationship between chair and CEO in any organisation is fundamental. There was absolute trust between the chair and the CEO. And then when Ron passed away, I was blessed to get Mike Fitzpatrick, a very successful individual in his own right.

Yeah.

A great player of the game, captained 2 premierships for Carlton, the Rhodes Scholar. And he was, he was different to Ron, but he was similar in so many other ways because we were completely aligned as well. And we had a great relationship, very honest relationship. He'd have no hesitation in pulling me up. But would always have your back in a board meeting. He'd challenge. We'd meet regularly like I did with Ron. And I think in order— if you want to execute your strategy and you want to be aligned and you want to try and do the things that your team have done the preparation and the recommendations to implement, you've got to have alignment with your chair. You've got to have that trust relationship and that acting as one in the best interest of the game. I was just fortunate to have that. I would have hated to have worked with a chair that wasn't aligned to the way I was thinking.

Then back, so sort of got that clear alignment and then you're getting the team together. I think you described them as sort of this energetic, young energetic sort of team. I've heard you sort of talk around getting them to commit to you and you committing to them. Do you want to just maybe elaborate on how you set clear intention?

Everyone who's a leader, who leads an organisation's got their own style and there are lots of common traits to leaders. I had a pretty simple approach and if you ask most of the staff that worked under me, they'd would say the same thing about me, I would think. And I used to say to people 3 things. One is that I'm here first and foremost— I know I'm here as the CEO of the AFL, but I'm here first and foremost to develop you as people. When you leave this organisation, hopefully you'll be multi-skilled and you'll be a better person. If you do that, if you do that, all I ask, if I can deliver that for you is that you commit and that you commit to me and that you're loyal to me as your CEO. If you can't commit, then come and see me and we'll make other arrangements for you to leave. We'll still be friends.

Yeah.

And if we do those 2 things together, we'll achieve amazing things. And everything we did, we did as a collective. You know, the, the woman working on the Switch was just as excited as record crowds as the finance team. The membership team was just as excited getting record memberships as the people who worked in game development. Everyone shared in this, in the good stories, and everyone shared in the disappointments. So we, we did our very best to make sure we operated as a collective and as a group, and I just was blessed to work with some wonderful group of people.

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Fantastic. Well, yeah, we've sort of covered 2 pretty key stakeholder groups. I think one I'd like to get to is probably government, because I know we've had Phil and yourself sort of speaking with some of the leadership groups around how that can be a really effective sort of relationship. Yeah, maybe if you could just share a little bit about your approach to government, maybe when it was in that role, and maybe some of the success you achieved.

Uh, was probably more so under Mike Fitzpatrick. He, he started a new iteration when he became chair and challenged the executive to be bolder. And with being— the challenge was to look at expanding the competition and to set about getting better infrastructure. So in my early days, you know, I stated as one of my objectives in the role was to get every club similar, if not the same training and admin facilities. Because some clubs had outstanding training and admin facilities. You know, West Coast had built a $40 million facility and North Melbourne were working out of portables.

Right.

Right.

And the other part was we wanted to enhance the infrastructure and stadium that we were playing at. Whilst we had a great stadium in the MCG, we had Marvel Stadium under a roof. We wanted everywhere we played in Australia to have the best infrastructure. So We set up our own government relations department and we set about a strategy in fostering and nurturing relationships with government, both at federal and state level, and even went to the extent of having relationships with local government. So we were fortunate enough over a number of years to get every club having great training and admin facilities where there was a combination of AFL contribution, federal, state, and local governments. And that took a few years. And we were blessed that we probably had $2 to $3 billion of infrastructure commitments from state governments and federal governments in the stadia we played. And outside of the NFL, there wouldn't be a sport in the world that's got better stadia infrastructure than AFL football.

Yeah.

And in my time, we were lucky. We got Adelaide Oval built or refurbished for $525 million. MCG had a couple of hundred million refurb. We got Carrara built on the Gold Coast for $135 million, a combination of federal, state, local AFL. We had $60 million put into the GWS Stadium, giant stadium in Western Sydney. Perth Stadium, $1.25 billion, new stadium, Optus Stadium. Tasmania went through 3 or 4 iterations of refurbishment at both Bellarive and Launceston, refurbishment in Darwin. Every state had a contribution from state and federal government and local government. We put our hand in our pocket as well. It wasn't by accident. People often say to me, you guys have got— the AFL was blessed with so much cash. Why would governments give you money at the expense of hospitals and— Schools. Well, they were terribly important. But we, you know, we spent a lot of time trying to justify the investment that it would translate into tourism, economic activity, jobs. Um, Adelaide Oval was a classic case of transforming that city. Um, you know, the city of Adelaide's become alive since Adelaide Oval.

Yeah.

The footbridge that connects the Oval is connected to the city. And it wasn't an accident, and I'm pretty proud of what we did in the infrastructure space because one thing was certain, when we went to the government to present for funding, I often say to people, you know, governments of all persuasions want to be associated with success.

Yeah.

And going and crying poor that we've got no money and that we're a mendicant code was never going to cut it with government. And I happen to think, you know, if you're going to present to anybody, people do want to be associated with success as long as you behave with the utmost integrity, authenticity, and you're transparent. And we've been fortunate to work with governments of both persuasions, um, and I think that served the code well.

It certainly did. And yeah, I imagine that sort of, you know, some of the other codes would be, uh, chomping at the bit to look at and break down, you know, what was stakeholder management method. And yeah, to try and sort of, I guess, follow in those footsteps. But it wasn't just the big stadiums. And there's also sort of investment in sort of the local grounds. And we're seeing that especially with the women's division.

Well, we early on, we went to the Victorian state government and said we want to invest in regional areas with netball, cricket, and football because a lot of the regional towns, all the sporting clubs were amalgamating.

Right.

Because people were leaving, young people were flocking to the city. So it wasn't unusual for a particular region to have a netball, football, and cricket club. So we would— we set up a fund with the Victorian government. We'd put some money in and they would multiply that with a multiplier and invest in it. And all of a sudden, lots of pavilions and change rooms were being built. Infrastructure was being built at these grounds. And it was a collaboration, to be honest. I mean, in every infrastructure project, the AFL put its hand in its pocket. And that was one of the fundamental keys. People would say you didn't put your hand in enough. But the fact that we'd put our hand in our pocket was significant.

Yeah.

Fantastic.

Well, Alex, you're hogging the questions, man.

That's good. I love the passion. Andrew, you talked a little bit about sort of being forced to choose your successor almost on day one. I mean, that sounded unique to me. I'd never heard anyone be challenged that before. Do you think that's a good practice that should be translated into other businesses?

And it did work, by the way, with Gil.

Look, I think it is important. Once I was told, that was told to me, the penny dropped, not immediately, but after a while. I often say to people, it was not a day that I did not go to work, the words did not resonate in my ears about why we were there, why we existed, and that was to leave a legacy.

Yes.

I always went to work thinking, We're here as custodians. We need to leave a legacy. We need to leave the game in better shape. That's what drove our team. It dawned on me that part of that continuity had to be succession planning. I knew that I could count on a couple of individuals. In the early days, it was Ben Buckley before he went to the FFA and became CEO. Then Gil emerged as a potential leader. And it wasn't— I wasn't going to be involved in the decision-making, but I was certainly going to give the board every opportunity to expose— have him exposed to the board. And if they wanted to go outside of the organisation, they could obviously, but I wanted to make sure that they didn't because I believed in rewarding loyalty and rewarding people who knew the stakeholders and knew every transaction, every club CEO, every club president. We are in and under the hood of every transaction we had ever done. As it turned out, I have often said to Gil, he has been a very successful CEO and if he had not been, it would have reflected poorly on me.

Yes.

It would not have been a reflection on him, it would have been a reflection on me given the fact that I did everything I could to anoint him as my successor. It was not my decision, it was still the board's. I'm glad that he's been successful because it vindicates my faith in the, in the process of succession planning.

Yeah.

So I think it is terribly important. Um, you know, Gil would probably admit that he hasn't done as— one of the things he probably regrets is not having a succession plan as immediate as mine. Um, but he, you know, he got interrupted with COVID and other factors. So, um, but mine was pretty clear. Everyone knew who I was rooting for.

Yeah.

And ultimately got the, got the gig.

Yeah, that's fantastic. Obviously you touched a little bit sort of, yeah, in building teams, you, well, initially with your executive team, you promoted people internally, young and hungry people. And you talked about as well sort of wanting to develop everyone that you were working with. What sort of processes did you put in place to help achieve that?

Well, first of all, the executive team stayed together for 9 years.

Wow.

Um, and we never lost one, and that created a lot of continuity. We had an outer executive, so we promoted people into the outer executive and would invite them in to executive meetings sort of once a month to be exposed to papers and strategies and so forth. And outside of very confidential matters, they would have known what was going on. So the executive was given a mandate and we empowered them to make decisions and appoint whoever they wanted. I wasn't looking over their shoulder. And we often say you live and die by the decisions you make. So we had an absolute trust component going from top through the executive, through the outer executive.

Right.

Constant meetings, constant communication, constant feedback. Everyone was allowed to debate and challenge. We welcomed disagreements and that cultivated good decision-making. I was very fortunate that strategic planners we got, particularly Andrew Catterall who headed up, who was ex-BCG, he's just a brilliant mind who did a lot of work. Every decision we make had been thoroughly researched top and bottom, hours of work that had gone into it, and when we were ready to make a decision, we pretty much, nail it based on the information that had been provided. So a lot of it was about the information gathering, a lot of it was about the communication strategies, a lot of it was about the development and empowerment of the team to make decisions without being second-guessed. And we had continuity because, as I said, we had an unusual situation in our executive team. We'd all grown up together. 3 of the executive had lost their partners through, through death. You know, I'd lost my wife, Ben Buckley lost his, Ian Anderson had lost his. Everyone had had— got remarried, everyone had children together. So we were a very close group. So that, that helped a lot. You know, we were completely aligned in what we were trying to achieve, but we'd been through some difficult times as well. So it wasn't the perfect scenario at off Off the field, but we managed to build a wonderful relationship with these people.

Yeah, that's extraordinary.

Yeah, fantastic. That word of, uh, yeah, alignment keeps, uh, shining through. And, you know, across, I guess, all stakeholder groups which, which we've sort of mentioned today, whether it's board, staff, fans, you know, the government infrastructure is a great example, bringing capability inside, getting alignment externally, the media Bringing that team in or getting your key man to just focus solely on that. I mean, what a refreshing sort of dynamic to work in where it's just so clear. We don't have to have Monday morning sessions about whether I'm in 9 to 5 or where I'm working from. It's like, did you get the broadcast rights? Yes or no?

Yeah, well, we didn't have timesheets, I can tell you that much. Now we were outcome driven.

Yeah.

And some of the people worked extraordinary hours and they'd start late. Andrew Caddell, the example I used before, is our strategic planner. He was a late starter, but he'd be in the office at 10 o'clock having pizzas brought in with his dog in the office and— or his cat. I think it was a cat. But we were outcome-driven. If we asked the team to have something ready by a particular day, Would you be ready? You only have to ask once.

Yeah, fantastic.

It sounds like there was a— there's a lot of sort of radical ownership there. You allow people to just get on with it, which is fantastic. A lot of trust.

There's a lot of trust, but there's also a lot of belief and also a lot of hands-off empowerment to make these decisions, right? And they were held accountable if they got the things wrong. And sometimes you could forgive mistakes because if we didn't try and didn't take a risk, we wouldn't know. That's okay. But there was no looking over their shoulder or second-guessing and saying, why did you do that? You make the decision, you get on with it. If it's a good decision, you'll be, you'll be thanked. It's a bad decision, well, you'll be held accountable.

Absolutely. Absolutely. I guess that the next question I have, what decisions made their way to you then?

Uh, well, it's funny stories, a lot. But I guess the best examples I can give you is often in management meetings there'd be some decisions, whatever it may be, that would go around the table for quite a while, and the executive might be divided or it might be slanted in a particular way. Might be vehement disagreement from the finance guy because it's not bold, it's too risky. Our finance guy was very conservative.

Okay.

And sometimes I'd have to do my— I'm going to exercise my 9 votes and this is what we're doing. And that used to happen a fair bit. Sometimes the executive would say, are you going to exercise your 9 votes in this meeting? And sometimes I did. So there were decisions sometimes Sometimes there were decisions which required a blunt instrument. You know, it's too much conversation, too much talk, too much procrastination. And, you know, I can't think of some off the top of my head, but there were some very tricky— sometimes the decisions that required the ultimate 9 votes were dealing with the unexpected.

Yeah.

A crisis that happened. You know, we could— we, we planned for every scenario, but sometimes you couldn't plan for the unexpected.

Of course.

When the unexpected happened, we'd go into crisis management mode. We'd think it through, we'd discuss it, and if it hadn't happened before, ultimately it required something more than a group discussion. It might have involved a conversation with the chairman. This is what I think. He might say, if that's what you think, do it. Don't, you know, don't listen to anyone, just do it. You've got my backing.

Yeah.

And they were often hard decisions to make, but you had to make them. And I've always said to people, in the, in the role I was in, and Gild would be the same, and the previous CEOs, I would get 50 or 60 emails or letters a day from supporters or the public, 60% or 70% of most of them were critical. I hate that decision, you know, you're an a-hole. But often, if not always, they'd say, thank God you made the decision. Thank God you made the decision. You didn't give a spin, you didn't try and trick it up. At least you'd made the decision. Now we can get on with life.

Yeah.

And, you know, being decisive was very important in our, in our in our way of doing business. Being decisive was far more important than stringing people along and trying to spin. And often people in public life get into trouble, but the public can see through palaver.

Absolutely.

I guess you can always go back and recorrect if you need to down the line.

Well, you can never lie to the public, and you can never You can only spin for so long. And we, you know, we believed, and we had a lot of public eyes on us, a lot, because football's— a lot of football's so important in their lives, it's like their religion. That talking to them in a language they understood and being clear and transparent and honest with them, even if it was something they disagreed with, was far more palatable than spinning.

Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense.

Um, yes, maybe just sort of switching gears. I mean, um, you know, post-AFL life, um, been a couple of board appointments and roles. Maybe any of your, I guess, uh, key learnings if someone's looking at moving into board roles or considering that type of a trajectory post the CEO role?

Well, I've had both ends of the stick, so I've been chairman of Capital Health, which is a public company that operates radiology practices.

Yep.

And been fortunate to work with 3 MDs and enjoyed the role of trying to mentor and coach the managing directors and managing— helping to help them learn to manage upwards to a board, and me trying to impart some of my experience on them. And Capital Health's enjoyed a very good trajectory and success. And I've been at the other end where I've been on the board of Crown Resorts, and I was just a board member there. And Crown's been a very public, um, been subject to a lot of public inquiries and public scrutiny and condemnation over some of its activities. So I've experienced the, the, um, damage that that can cause.

Yeah.

And, you know, Crown— I can't apologise for what happened to Crown, but I have seen how you can get immersed in a situation where not everything gets fed up to the board.

Yes.

And that is a very difficult situation to be in. Boards can be very rewarding from the perspective of if you believe you can improve a business, you can mentor management or CEOs and you can see improvement. That can be very rewarding. It is not about the financial reward. It is about I have tried to get involved in companies that can grow and see results and see the improvement of your benefit of your experience. They are far more rewarding than getting involved in companies that hum along and do not want to change and do not want to improve. I would just say to people, think carefully about the boards you choose. Do your due diligence. Um, the chair is terribly important for the board, you know, how they deal with other board members and how they mentor the CEO and how they shouldn't overreach into management and interfere. Boards are there for good governance and approving the budget and helping the management team with their strategic direction, but they shouldn't be involved in day-to-day decisions.

Yeah.

So I've seen the good and the bad, uh, but it can be very rewarding if you see improvement.

Fantastic.

I suppose it comes back as well to aligning with your own values in terms of choosing the company, choosing the board.

It's true. Um, you do your best when you make the decision to join a board or any organisation that you hope that the values will be aligned. Sometimes they are and sometimes they may not be. But sometimes you find out too late.

Well, Alex, we might switch up into some short-form questions. Yeah, we can definitely do that. I'll get you started on that unless you had a last— a burning question for Andrew.

Andrew's been very generous. I think we can change into the short questions. Sure.

Yeah.

So just with a little bit of explanation behind maybe your choice of answer, if you don't mind.

Sure.

What's your favorite quote?

My favorite quote comes from my favorite book, which is a children's book.

That was my next question, so this is good.

Well, the children's book was The Little Prince. And the quote was, it is only with the heart that one can see rightly. What is essential is invisible to the eye. And it's the fox talking to the Little Prince.

That's fantastic. When did you first read that?

I think I read that as an adult, probably in my 20s when I was finished uni and I was playing football and I was working professionally. And I thought I didn't want to read it, but someone told me to read it and I thought it was a children's book, but it was Much more than a children's book.

Thank you. Do you have a passion or a hobby that people don't necessarily know about you?

Well, everyone would know that my passion is my family and my children and my family, extended family. Some people would know my passion is also Horse racing and punting. So that would be another passion. I've got a passion for all sports and watching. I've got a passion for junk television, reality TV.

What are you watching at the moment?

I've watched— I just finished watching White Lotus.

Okay. The, uh, season 2?

Number 2, because it was set in Italy.

Yeah, great.

Excellent. What is next on your bucket list, Andrew?

Well, I have got 4 children. My twins just finished VC and are both studying university now. We are pretty proud of them. So next on my bucket list is I have got another daughter in year 11 and it is to help her get through VCE next year.

Yeah.

Terribly important that we support her like the twins were supported through COVID. And then we've got one more, uh, son who's 13, and we'll do our very best to support him. So next on my bucket list is making sure they're— my wife and I are there for our last 2 schooling, because education is terribly important. We've told all our children that Year 12 matters. I'm not fussed about all the other years, but, you know, as long as you do your best, give yourself every opportunity, having an education and having something behind you gives you a far better chance in life than the other option.

Absolutely.

And, you know, thankfully, children have got great values and they're very— we're pretty proud of them. So next on my bucket list is not about me, it's about supporting our children.

Right, thanks. If you could mentor your younger self, what advice would you give?

Well, as you get older and you start talking to your children, you find— I find myself invariably thinking, that's what my father used to say and I used to argue with him. So I'd probably say Listen to your parents and understand a lot more because they're more experienced than you are at that age. Um, because I didn't, I didn't actually believe that I'd say some of the things I say as an adult now to my children that my father used to say to me.

Yeah, that's good.

It's that generational, uh, knowledge. Yes, maybe. Yeah, maybe. Maybe you weren't ready to hear it. I'm a similar experience.

I used to push back a lot. But some things that come out of my mouth, I say, oh my God, my father said that to me. And I used to yell at him. So it's an odd thing, but it's true.

So here I'm just going to ask you some short questions, and then just whatever comes to the top of your head.

Sure.

That works for you? All right, off we go. Cats or dogs?

Dogs.

Netflix or YouTube?

Netflix.

Calls or texts?

Texts.

iOS or Android?

iOS.

Beach or snow?

Beach.

Dining out or home cooking?

Dining out.

Best one, red or black?

Repeat the question, please.

Would you bet on red or black?

Probably red.

Governance board or advisory board?

Governance board.

Racket sports or motorsports?

Racket sports.

Mykonos or Ibiza?

Mykonos.

TV or book?

TV.

Tea or coffee?

Coffee.

Passenger or driver?

Driver.

Candy or chocolate?

Chocolate.

Electric or petrol?

Petrol.

Cash or card?

Card.

PC or Mac?

PC.

Entrée or dessert?

Entrée.

City or country?

City.

Sleep-in or early riser?

Early riser.

Coke or Pepsi?

Coke.

Walk or run?

That's it.

Walk.

There we go. Thanks very much.

I forgot to set a timer.

Break that down psychometric.

It is, isn't it? Do some psychometric breakdown, tell me what I'm like.

Tells us a lot about you when you tell us, what is it, red or black? Or yeah, I thought you might go Mykonos over Ibiza.

I think, yeah.

Given your perspective.

Given where you're holidaying. Exactly.

Part of the world? Well, I was late with getting the timer started there, Alex, but I think that might be a record for you. You almost got through all of them. Nice one.

Is there anything that you feel we've missed in this talk? Is there anything else you'd like to add?

I could talk about lots of things, but as I said, you can fire any question you want and I'll do my best to answer them. But no, I thank you for your time and hopefully someone might get something out of this particular podcast.

Yes, very humble. No, yeah, thank you very much for your time today, Andrew. I'm looking forward to Yeah, seeing you again at one of our member events. And thanks for taking the time to chat with the listenership. Thanks, David.

Thanks, Alex.

Yeah, thank you very much, Andrew.

Cheers.

Hey, this is Alex. If you enjoyed the content so far and you want us to do more, if you want to hear more, click the subscribe button. It allows us to bring on more guests in the future.

Thanks.