Why Business Strategy Should Start with the End Customer with Joe Sofra

I'm very clear about the 4 main things that I think are unique to my position that others don't do. I often hear people saying it, but I don't see the behavior. If I was talking to my younger self, I would definitely say, you know, you don't have to go crazy, you know, but acknowledge your achievements. I actually inherently believe that most people aren't emotionally resistant to change.

Mm.

I think it's more that you've gotta be able to help them understand.

Hi, Dave here. Hope you're enjoying the show. Thank you for tuning in. If you like what you're hearing, you want to become part of the conversation, please just click the show note link and we'll connect there. Bye. Joe Sofra, welcome to The Mentor List. It's great to have you in the studio with us today.

Thank you, David.

And thanks for coming down. I hear your folks just live around the corner, so—

They're down from Shepparton. For over a couple of hours. I've got no choice after this but to pop in and go and say g'day.

Oh, good, good. But yeah, great to have you on the show. Really looking forward to sort of jumping straight into the content. Today we're sort of discussing sort of this positioning for growth and really wanting to get into sort of this whole idea and philosophy around how you can operationalize that whole customer centricity, which I know is sort of an an area which you're very passionate when we sort of discuss this offline. So, Joe, I might just sort of start there and maybe if you could sort of maybe let us know about what you're currently doing in your role and sort of some of the opportunities you're seeing and maybe, yeah, from that sort of lens of customer centricity, maybe if you could just share your thoughts on that.

Yeah, no, thank you, David and Alex, and look, thank you very much for having me. Look, currently, um, sort of leading an organization, uh, ANC. We're, we're a last-mile delivery company, a logistics company if you want to think about it that way. I don't think about us that way, but that's, that's predominantly where we've come from. So, you know, I've been with the organization for 2 years, and, and I joined with the notion that, um, there seems to be a great opportunity in this sector as customers And when I talk about customer, I mean the consumer. And when I talk about client, I'm talking more about the organizations we contract with. So when we talk about customers and consumers or buyers, that the power of that cohort or that group is increasingly becoming important and more important to a level where they are choosing and that is driving behavior within retailers and merchants and brands. So when you're in the last mile, you're fundamentally doing that piece of work that says, you know, you take a product and you deliver it to the customer or the consumer. So, you know, customer centricity almost sounds like a default status for an organisation like ours.

It does.

But I think for a lot of people that operate and play in our space, it's much more about logistics, i.e., from a point of dispatch all the way through the supply chain, rather than the way we sort of are trying to think about it, which is from the customer work backwards. What do you have to do to deliver on a promise that's been made to a customer at a point of purchase?

Yeah, because you're right, your business model is obviously the revenue is coming from the client, the client's picking to go with you, but then the end customer is the actual person that gets the new TV from JB or Yes. Whoever it was. And so their involvement in that decision point of whether to use A&C's. Yeah, maybe if you could flush that out a bit more, it's quite an interesting dynamic.

Sort of sounds a little bit, sounds non-obvious or it doesn't sound, we obviously get paid by our retail clients. So the brands that hire, engage us predominantly to do what on the surface of it looks like a logistical activity. take this product from here and deliver it to a customer there. And so, you know, and I think we do get asked often questions around that business model. Well, they're ultimately the ones that are writing the check for you. They're paying you. So how does that work? And I think, David, this one sort of relates a little bit to direction and strategy. So I think one of the hardest things in businesses to do is for a business to articulate its value proposition. And I mean articulate it to a really granular level.

Mm-hmm.

In our business and the work that we've been doing over the last few years is to get very, very granular on that. And what that means and the way I articulate it is what we see as our why, our purpose is to unlock the full potential in a purchase, if you like, by delivering an exceptional customer experience. Why do we do that? Why do we focus on that? We focus on that because if we can do that well, The value that we create for our clients and our brands and our merchants is increased sales, retained sales, so drives their revenue. So our job in our, in, in our heads is, is to create that exceptional customer experience and drive value back to the client. So if you look at our fleet, you will not see ANC's brand on our vehicles. you'll see our clients' brands. We would rather have that when, when an ANC delivery professional comes to your door, the memory we're trying to create and the promise we're trying to fulfill is an extension of our clients. So that's how we take our responsibility in that piece. So it's a little bit like we know if we take care of the customers, our clients, will be satisfied with the service we provide to them.

Yeah, absolutely.

So go and focus on the stuff you control, which is the experience that you can deliver to the customer. And what that forces us to do is to swim upstream to enact that in any way we can. And so we're becoming increasingly more data-led. So we're extracting data from that experience to optimize that, but also to work out What's the right price point to deliver the right customer outcome? Because at the end of the day, we see our job as converting that customer into a net promoter, somebody that will promote our client's brand, will recommend that brand to others, and obviously repeat purchase themselves. So that's how we see our job.

Which is very different to, if you talk about sort of where the companies come from around that logistics as an overarching banner, which has always been about volume and unit cost. And so this is a very different sort of, I guess, way to drive the business.

It is, Dave. And because in part there's a cap on that because that model is leveraged to the cost side of a client's business. It's just a cost. There's a cost line that sits there that says, I've got product ultimately that I have to get to the customer and that's going to cost me money. That's it. Whereas what we're trying to do is reposition and say, well, Actually, if we do what we do well, then that should drive your brand into the mind of the consumer, and that should generate new sales for you. So now we're pivoting from being on the cost side of the ledger to being perhaps much more on the value-based side of the ledger. And we're extending that even further. So we're going, right, okay, we're putting our brands, we're putting your brand on our vehicle, How effective is that? So if we then drive that van into deep suburban environments and that van is getting looked at 13,000 times a day, creates that impression. How do we demonstrate to you that actually you're getting significant market penetration through that? If we then even push that further and say, how do we leverage technology? So not only Do we know how many people are looking at it? We actually know who's looking at it. And how do you then push marketing and advertising towards that person that relates to the product that you're actually out there promoting and pushing?

How does that work?

So there are, I mean, I think we all kind of had the experience of, you know, you plug into, how does Google know that? How does Apple know that? You know, I searched the website and all of a sudden, You know, I keep getting advertising for polka dot socks. You know, how is that? So the technology is ever-present. It's just the ability to tap into that. You know, we've got devices that we're starting to fit now to vehicles where, you know, if you stop and stare at one of our vans because the brand catches your attention, it notes that.

And so it knows there's a person or it knows the person or—

If you've got a mobile phone in your pocket.

Wow.

It knows both. So there are, but then on top of that, what we're linking it to is when we've done a delivery, we are responding, we're requesting from you that, how was that experience? Did you get what you wanted? Was the service the way you needed it to be? Have we left you as a net promoter? And so those insights, when you couple it with other things, One of the interesting pieces, when you ask people straight out, what's the biggest parameter that often drives customer experience? A lot of retailers will respond to speed because in their mind, people have kind of responded that, well, normally if there's a delivery involved, it's taking the place of the consumer having gone into the store and bought it immediately.

Yeah.

That has moved on significantly. So what our data is actually showing, particularly in the sort of the products that we are supporting, it's customer choice more than anything else that's most relevant. So David buys something, whether it be online or in store, and what he would rather get is a link to his phone that says, hey, you've got— there's 3— ANC is offering you 3 delivery windows. Pick which one most suits you. You go click. I'll have it next Thursday, you know, in the AM because I'll be working from home and that'll suit me. Now what we're seeing, that's not a speed-based decision. That's a choice and lifestyle-based decision. And if we can deliver in that window and we deliver it in a way that's professional and offers the quality, you will be a promoter of that client's brand. And that is really important. And I think it's increasingly important. Even in this economic downturn, that market share and market retention is such a big piece for our clients and we need to be able to support that.

Absolutely. That's really interesting that you're talking about moving away from the speed towards flexibility and sort of integrating with the end customer's lifestyle effectively. Yeah.

And maybe in a lot of our contracts and for our clients, Alex, We don't just deliver. So there may be an installation component that's involved. White good gets taken out, new one put in place, removed, plumbed in, whatever it be. So it's really quite a turnkey integrated solution. And I think, again, it's probably one of those ones where if you go and stare at the data versus old held assumptions, Australia is increasingly becoming a very densely populated environment. I think, and I'm sure I'll get this slightly wrong, but I think the statistics say that if you displace Melbourne and Sydney into the US, you'd have the 3rd and 4th largest cities in the US. They are quite compact, dense cities that we are living in. And even by extension, as you go into those sort of slightly inter-regional big cities, they're still quite densely populated. So, so, you know, increasingly more people are living in apartment-style living, you know, where it's a turnkey outcome. Products are getting bigger, life cycles are shortening. So, so it's no longer a function of, you know, I went to a retailer, the product's too big for me to somehow squeeze into the back of the station wagon, I'll organize delivery. People aren't even giving that a consideration anymore. It's all of that has to be a turnkey element of what I'm buying as part of a heightened convenience solution.

Absolutely. How are you adjusting your company to the increased density of these cities?

Yeah, look, it's a great question. And I think you've only got to talk to our delivery professionals every so often and the things that they have to navigate on a daily basis, be they traffic and everything else. There's no doubt that So we're pushing quite hard to electrify our fleet. So our aim is to sort of have 20% to 30% of our fleet electrified over the next 2 years. Part of that is that electrification is driven from a number of different things. One is certainly that customer client impact. There's no doubt that that's what our customers are demanding more of. And And it certainly supports our clients' transition to that, but it brings different asset classes in. And I think some of that deals with that increased flexibility and agility that we need in a metro environment. And a really good example of that is that we've recently deployed 2 electric tuk-tuks in Sydney for IKEA.

Brilliant.

As an example. So they are kind of custom built for that. So we'll expand that fleet. And in part it's so they can get these deliveries into these tight little environments and they can move quickly and agilely.

And I imagine they attract a lot of looks as well.

Yeah. Well, that's remarkable.

Yeah.

And also I think what it does, which when you sort of think about it sort of sounds obvious, but it's not until you do the work that an electric van can make deliveries at different times that conventionally powered vehicles probably can't, or there are some restrictions around that. So if the product has authority to leave, as a good example, then there is no reason why they couldn't be doing those deliveries at 2 o'clock in the morning when there's less traffic on the road. So you're actually using— you're more efficient, so you're using less energy. They're quiet, all of those sort of things, as opposed to brown-powered vehicles that clearly cannot do that.

Do that.

So it does introduce a whole degree of flexibility, but it is certainly becoming an increasing demand. There's no doubt that what we're seeing is a proportion of transactions now that have a delivery component is going up. And customers, we know customers are actively choosing based on their convenience, their ability to get that integrated outcome. The amount of feedback we get through our customer rating technology around even just that interaction. For us, we do a lot of home-based delivery. A lot of our sort of 1,200 people spend time in people's homes. That's a responsibility that we take quite seriously because you're letting 1 to 2 people across your threshold. And that's not delivering a parcel box that you just leave at the front door that requires a signature, maybe nothing. You've now got people in your home for a period of time. And that's, you know, we do that sometimes in hospitals, we do that sometimes in construction sites, we do that in the homes of vulnerable people, you know, as well as just, you know, everyday people as well.

So that's interesting. I thought it was going to lead on to sort of my other question, which I guess is around your staff or delivery professionals being sort of the last bridge between your customers. And but yeah, so I imagine there's been a lot of training and screening that goes into that. As well into them?

Look, for sure. And, and, um, you know, we, we're— we continue to refine particularly things like our training and development. Um, I think traditionally, normally a lot of that training and development goes around how do you do the technical element of the job, you know, because you're often lifting heavy things, how do you— the safety elements, all of those normal things which are all important. But increasingly what we're overlaying that with is customer advocacy training and how do you interact with people better. And because in many regards, I'm also conscious of our delivery professionals. They're often put into circumstances that they have to navigate that are actually quite complicated. Sometimes they're on the wrong end of some of the negative things that you see in society. Sometimes you have disgruntled customers and for whatever reason, unfortunately, it's the delivery professional who's rocking up at the door that's that's not able to meet their expectations. So they become the whipping boy or girl and they receive the tirade or the unreasonable request. So how do we make sure that they're equipped to be able to manage that?

Yeah.

Yeah. So we do invest quite a bit in the upskilling of those. And yeah, you're right. We're very mindful of the type of people that are part of that organization in part for that reason. But we also are conscious that we need to be able to drive productivity and efficiency because a lot of people have this misconception that if you want to deliver an exceptional customer experience, it actually costs more. In actual fact, what we're finding is it's actually creating opportunity for us to reduce cost. Part of that has to be that we've always got the right incentivization to drive productivity. But the other part of it is also to be very clear about the level of experience you're trying to deliver. And we've got to make sure our delivery professionals can execute on that.

Yeah, that's fascinating.

Thank you. And you mentioned sort of some of the customer behaviours there, but talking about sort of COVID going through what was probably a period where online delivery, including last mile, would have really benefited from that from a volume perspective. Are you seeing that some of those behaviours are sort of sticking around or is it coming back to sort of a more bricks and mortar type pickups? How did that sort of impact how people in the home are behaving and therefore what your business model's sort of geared for?

It's a great question, David, and we reflected on it quite a bit because COVID wasn't, as we all kind of know, it wasn't like 3 months and we all breeze past it. I think it was for long enough that it really shifted people's expectations, behaviors, and everything else. I think the things that definitely have stuck, we've seen this, is that customer choice and expectation definitely stepped up. So customers, that has stuck. People are buying with an expectation now and sort of, you know, when I get it is not good enough anymore or near enough, you know, without, you know, clarity on what am I going to get, when am I going to get it, definitely has moved in Australia. You know, and I think in some regards maybe we've caught up to, you know, other markets in the world where that heightened expectation was already advanced compared to here. I mean, the volumes and everything, obviously, as you quite rightly say, I mean, we had so many large retailers that just basically just shut their doors and the only mechanism to get product to their customers was through delivery. Every single one of our clients fit into that category and volumes definitely did surge through that process. I think with everybody at the time, we were all just trying to make it work. So in some regards, I wouldn't say it was a particularly profitable time for us. Because there was a lot of cost and inefficiency thrown at how do we stand something up in the space of days just to be able to allow and help our clients continue to trade. So there was definitely an element of that, but the volume hasn't receded. So I think a part of that has been now that the customers are aware now that that optionality is available to them. So even though perhaps more customers have gone back into stores, the delivery component of transactions, I think to some degree has sustained itself. Online is probably now back on that trajectory. I think there was that view that it sort of went up, now it's coming back. The growth rate now is sort of back at that 8 to 10% of transactions, but the delivery component, like, you know, we've got some clients now where you track back 4 years ago and And the delivery part of a transaction, there might have only been 10, 15% of transactions that would have involved the delivery. We've got some clients now that are approaching 50/50, that 50% of their transactions require a delivery because customers now want that convenience and that choice.

Because if you look at, I mean, and you'd have a great perspective on this, the whole sort of value chain of delivery and whether that's the pre-production or the raw materials to whatever example of product or service it is. How much is last mile sort of the total value chain, if you like, of a product?

It represents a big chunk. People can, you can do the numbers and it varies, but 50 to 60% is tied up often in that last mile. And It's a strongly productivity-driven, flexible, fast-moving environment relative to some other aspects of supply chain, which is perhaps a little bit more static and a bit more known and a bit more directed. You've got deliveries that are moving around densely populated metropolitan environments, often different volumes going in different directions on different days. Flexibility in that last mile is really what makes it work. Points of fulfillment, fleet, and where that fleet moves. And in some regards, a lot of where the solution sort of thinking goes is how do you get— how do you create interim fulfillment points so that you are really trying to minimize that cost per delivery, if you like? And that is a big piece of If I think back to where we've come from, from a strategy perspective, the 2 driving parameters in our business are customer experience or happy customer, customer satisfaction and a cost per order. So we start with the first one and we work out what that requirement is and then we work backwards pretty hard to try to optimize the cost base to support that. And I think often what that means, so the tools that we use, like we do customer experience journey mapping with our clients. That's where we start the process because it's often not until you ask the question, what is that experience you're trying to deliver? What does it actually look like? But sometimes you're actually overboiling it. You're trying to do more for the customer than what the customer themselves So if you find out what that right point is, does that actually allow you to lower cost? So we've had some really good examples where a lot of our clients in trying to drive the right experience for their customers will offer them rapid delivery windows. When we've deployed our tech to ask the customer what you want, they actually push it out 3 days.

Right.

Now, obviously, that's a much cheaper option than it is delivering it the next day in the morning.

Yeah.

So through that point, we've got, actually, there's a cost per order downward adjustment here, whereas they've got it in their mind, hang on a minute, if I'm going to deliver a better experience, it's going to cost me more, right? In actual fact, we're going the other way. So the way I kind of think about it, Dave, is our whole strategy has to be predicated on rather than asking the customer retrospectively, give them the choice right up front and wire that into your solution. leave it so that it haphazardly happens at a point of sale in a store somewhere. Have, you know, let the customer go in and purchase the good and then send them the link that says, here's the choices, pick which one suits you best.

Yeah.

Click, I'll have that one. Then as long as you deliver to that, they're going to be a satisfied customer. And if they change their mind, they can do that as well. You go, actually, I'd selected next Thursday, that's not going to work for me, can you guys do it Wednesday afternoon? Click another link, gets sent out, they click the link and away they go. So that's what we're trying to get through is you can just eliminate that uncertainty by just giving them the choice. Yeah.

And talking about sort of choices, one of the probably fundamental shifts through COVID was this sort of concept of authority to leave or taking the picture of the goods at the front door. I mean, how has that sort of impacted the industry?

I think there was a spotlight thrown on some bad behaviour in the industry as well through that, David. I think that's a— look, we deliver for some of our clients, most of what we do is an authority to leave for some of those clients. So that's a really important part. Look, at the end of the day, we have to take accountability for the integrity of our fleet and be very clear that what happens to make sure that they do the job to the requirement. Our preference is to interact with the customer. That's what we really like. We work for some fantastic brands who are really trying to interact with their customers. And a lot of those are online e-com brands. And the only way to interact is through that delivery activity.

Right.

So our preference is to do the delivery personally. Here you go. If it's a handover, And if we can't, then we offer them the ATL. And you're right, we do the validation to make sure that the delivery is completed. We've done our part and our clients have met the promise that was made. If something happens after that, we want to make sure that we've done everything that's right.

Yeah.

And I mean, maybe this is showing my naivety, if that's even a word, but I think of last mile, I think of a new big screen TV or a new fridge. You know, from a customer perspective, I think it's quite exciting to get those types of big home purchases sort of delivered. Are there other things that's sort of running through last mile that maybe my simple brain isn't thinking, well, of course, that's a big part of, it's not just TVs and fridges?

Look, there are a lot of e-commerce players who push product down into the market A good example is Pet Circle is one of our larger clients. We've been involved with Pet Circle for a number of years now as their business has grown as has ours. We offer as part of the partnership that we have with Pet Circle is you will see Pet Circle vans all over the place. They're our vans.

Right.

So we're out there promoting our brand. So in part, the value that we deliver for Pet Circle is not just about the delivery and the efficiency and the effectiveness of that delivery, It's how do we interact with their customers? Because their interaction with their customers are through a website. We're the human component of that if you want to think about it that way. So there's that, people can go to a pet barn and buy that product if they wish.

Yeah.

But there's a convenience that goes with that. And there's an efficiency that goes with that. And then there's an interaction that goes with that. Who Gives a Crap is another good example of a client that we're doing a lot of work with. We've just deployed some electric vehicles with them. We're pushing, we've just branded those with their brand and we're really helping to try to drive some brand awareness and brand promotion for them as well. But at the same time, what we want to do is still deliver a product to people's homes, interact with that customer and make that experience for that customer in relation to Who Gives a Crap a really positive one, one that they would say. And you know what I must say, David, Here's one of the things that amazes me that I didn't appreciate. So about 12 months ago, we switched on a piece of our tech that is to elicit direct customer feedback. So a star rating similar to an Uber, 5-star, 4-star, 3, 2, 1. And then we offer the option to our customers to write a narrative around that.

Okay.

Now, I always sort of worked to this assumption that The ones who are ticked off, the 1-starers, will write you the 2 paragraphs.

Exactly.

I am amazed. And we actually look at the narrative we get. The 2 things that amaze me most is we are operating at really high stars and people who leave 5-star reviews bother to write a response. So that That was a bit of a— because we get a really high response rate on our rating system, which I think goes to the sort of questions we're asking. But I was surprised by that because I just assumed people who leave higher ratings won't write as much. The second was the amount they wrote and the detail they went into. This is on their phone because this is where they receive the link and the time that they take to acknowledge— the work and effort of the delivery professionals. Even if sometimes that is, I'm just dropping off a box of toilet paper to you. I'm actually handing it over. Have a great day. I've left you with an impression. I get in the van and I drive off. And they write a paragraph on that. And I'm still amazed at that. So in some regards, it's kind of heartening because it just sort of tells you that there are some good people out there who can be bothered giving people a pat on the back.

Yeah.

But I always sort of went into it with this assumption that it's normally the people who've got some negativity to project out that bother to write. So what it reinforces for us is like, we know they're actively promoting, they're actively saying it. You can imagine how that individual now is going to behave when they talk to their colleagues and their peers.

Definitely.

Which lends to both the need, the value in turning them into a promoter and continually maintaining them as a promoter. But also the power of the brand on things like vehicles and acknowledging the impressions that you make in terms of driving value for your clients. So I was a little bit surprised by that. I didn't expect that people would bother even now. And what we've started to do now is we've got internal television systems going. We've now just started to play that for our people so that they can see it. So it's just scrolling through.

Yeah, I was going to ask if that was fed back to your delivery professionals and We are. With APIs as well.

Yeah, so I think that's a great question, Alex. And I think we touched on it a little bit sort of pre this, that there are, you know, in trying to drive customer centricity into your organization, which is a pivot for us, you know, as it is probably for a lot of, you know, very operational companies, there's that component around the hard and then there's a component around the soft, if you like. typical of most things that involve human beings. We do feed that back to our delivery professionals, but what we're actually trying to do now is do what the likes of the Ubers and co do is we also want them to self-correct and get visibility to that performance as the customer rates them, not anybody else. Now, they're not solely responsible for the rating that's ultimately given. They can do their best and And it could be a delay in loading or it can be a delay in something else that causes that. But there are active management tools along that journey that says we can do lots of things to reduce the friction point for the customer that ultimately will either result in a good rating or a bad rating. So the hard stuff around, well, what do you actually have to do to wire it into your basic tools and measures? And then there's the soft stuff that says when we've got delivery professionals who are doing an exceptional job that are getting great feedback from customers? How do we acknowledge them in our business and hold them up as going, that's what good looks like. Now let's make that more and more consistent.

So that's fantastic. I was hearing about hard and soft and sort of putting that into your operational rhythm. One of the other, maybe if we go down sort of some of the other harder customer centricity Things that I sort of see that are remarkable, you're mentioning the tuk-tuks and the Pet Circle vans, but can you sort of maybe, are we going to see drones flying through the air carrying fridges soon? Where are we heading with all of this?

Carrying fridges?

And how does it come back to, as a CEO of sort of helping to guide that or even making that informed decision, what's your sort of guiding principle to Should we have drones or should we even— is it— yeah, I'd love to hear your perspective on some of the new remarkable things that are out there.

Yeah, look, it's a great question, Dave. I think from my perspective, I think we'll always go back to how do we innovate around the element that drives the customer outcome and gives us that potential to lower cost. They're always going to be the 2 basic parameters that we've got to play to. There is no doubt that there are a whole bunch of emerging medium-term technologies that are going to create potential for us to change. There's no doubt our fleet mix will move over the next few years as our requirements to meet those customer expectations move. And then they have. The introduction of the Tuks is just a really simple but obvious example of that. I think we will The benefit of things like battery electric vehicles is that they also introduce different classes of vehicle that are both capable. Like if I think about the tuk-tuk again, is they can carry half a tonne. Conventionally powered tuk is noisy, loud, and just simply cannot carry half a tonne. So it's not a viable option, whereas an electric powered one all of a sudden becomes viable. I think we'll continue to see that and we'll be looking for those technologies more and more. When I think about things like drones and things like that, I think it will all come down to the viability of those for the type of customer requirements. I think what I actually think the sort of things that we will also look for more in terms of in-field technologies, if you want to call those, versus sort of the backend technologies, it will be more about, well, you know, how do you deliver, you know, a fridge that weighs considerable weight up 4 levels of a building, manoeuvre it into a tight space, remove the old. What are going to be some of those more innovative ways of doing that that doesn't require you to have 2 guys that weigh 120 kilos each and can powerlift a van?

Yeah.

Those sort of technologies will become more present. We've also got to deal with the ongoing element around productivity, I think, you know, that what's the most efficient and effective way to consolidate and move freight in the lowest cost mechanism possible? And then there's that interaction technology with our customers. How do we make that experience the right experience? How do we continue to maintain that focus on them being active promoters of our clients and our clients' brands?

Yeah.

So I have no doubt that we'll get, I think we see it in other markets where things are getting trialled. I think there's been an imperative to trial that. I think we'll see that more and more. A lot of the product that we deal with isn't tailor-made for robotic warehouse handling, as an example. We aren't dealing with parcels that are kind of shoebox size that can be easily sorted and dealt with by small robots. But I'm sure there'll be elements of that that will continue to change to drive efficiencies.

Yeah.

I've got the sort of mental image of a delivery professional wearing some exosuit.

Well, you know what? That doesn't sound as crazy as it sounds like, you know, the bionic-powered kind of, you know, he slips into his suit and carries the fridge one-handed up a flight of stairs.

With a friendly grin.

With a friendly grin. That's right. And a cheerful smile. It is becoming, it is getting to that point increasingly as products have gotten larger, as living environments have become more dense, more compact.

Yeah, definitely.

And lifecycle rates are turning over faster. So people are changing out white goods faster, brown goods faster. So it's happening and in part You know, when I was growing up, mum and dad would only change the fridge once it had blown up twice and could no longer be repaired. Now I think people are changing it for not just reliability issues, but also lifestyle requirements and other things. So yeah, definitely. So yeah.

And also that probably generational difference probably would have had the car with the tow bar and had access to their own or a friend down the road's trailer to You know, to do that themselves and invest half the weekend.

Yeah, no, David, you're exactly right. I think when we looked at some demographic data not that long ago, I think now there's, I think something up like 10% of the population that is licensed to drive no longer owns a car. So, you know, that you don't, you wouldn't have to go back many years where you'd go that, no, no, that's not right. Surely you've missed something there. So that's changing. And we, I think we do see it now increasingly in rideshare cars. And vehicles that are not made to have a tow bar and a trailer. And we ran, we did a couple of little sort of spot examples going into stores where we've explored just to inform ourselves of, well, go in and run the scenario that says, hey, I've come in to buy a fridge kind of thing, but I need to get it up 3 flights of stairs to deliver it to my mother's place. What should I do? Well, you could go around the corner and sort of rent a trailer. And it's like, really? And yes, even if I could do that, and yes, if my vehicle can tow that, how am I going to get it up 3 flights of stairs? It's just no longer a valid solution for customer.

That's true. And then you also need to store, what is it, not the dolly wheel, but maybe one of those little trolleys or the blanket.

As a point of frustration that, and I think maybe one of the questions back to you guys is, as a customer, when you think about your buying choices, how far do you think through? Let's say you are buying a larger product, something of value. How far do you think through to the total outcome? Or do you go, I'm just looking for this particular model of this, this is what I want? I don't know whether that's something you give consideration to.

Depends. Yeah. A new car versus, you know, a bag of dog food at the shops.

Yeah.

Yeah, I think it's the timing of making the decision. The price wouldn't really factor into that. A new car, I'll, I'm already like, I'll have a 3-year sort of research window while, whilst the other one gets sort of 3 years older and then I'll probably know exactly what I'm going to buy and I'll know, you know, when, when it's a good deal and be ready to strike. But otherwise it's all convenience and Trying to manage, you know, how much time and effort. And yeah, what do you think, Alex?

Well, it's funny, I think, yeah, if it's a big white good, then I would be considering the installation issues. I mean, I used to live in Hong Kong and I felt the city survived on men with these very low sort of push trolleys, which would seemingly deliver all sorts of things up like multiple flights of stairs. I don't know how they did it, but it was absolutely extraordinary to see.

Yeah, well, look, I think increasingly that's what we're getting as well. My own personal point of frustration wasn't that long ago that We replaced our built-in oven, which, and we had a seamless experience in the store. We picked what we wanted, we bought it. Actually happened that ANC delivered it to my room of choice, which was my lounge.

Undercover boss.

Yeah, but I'd actually paid through the retailer to have it installed and integrated. My frustration was it sat there for 4 days in my lounge room in a box. So the ANC team had delivered it to the window, but the experience wasn't seamless. And then when we're about to get it installed, my wife gets a call at work, we're 15 minutes from your place, we can come in and do it now. And it's kind of like, well, that's not a seamless experience. That creates actually a lot of friction. Now she's obviously intimate with what we were trying to do here, but no, it should have been in my mind very simple. The ANC guys, should have delivered it, pulled out the old, installed the new, taken away the package, seamless, done in the time window that I've chosen. That then creates that brand promotion or that merchant promotion that I would say, you know what, I went in, the product cost 100 units, I paid another 40 units for it to be completely integrated. And that was fine. Whereas these guys over here sold the unit for 10 units less, but they didn't offer that. Well, that was no good to me. That just didn't complete the—

Yeah.

And we're finding, and the data coming back to us is very clear, is customers are shopping with that eye in mind now. It's not just the cost of the unit, it's what will it take me to get it into my home, integrated into my home, everything removed? If I factor all of that in, what does that mean? And we're also starting to get the sense that customers are also looking for that old product. How's that going to get disposed of? I want that disposed of in an appropriate and environmentally and socially beneficial manner. So I want visibility on that. So customer choice and expectations has definitely elevated in my mind over the last 3 years. And COVID, I think, David, back to your original point, contributed to that. Yeah, fantastic.

How do you deliver on that expectation of sort of replacement and disposal?

Well, we're doing it in a lot of areas, so a lot of product categories that makes that a bit more easy. So washing machine, dryers, dishwashers. So our guys are trained to be able to pull the old out, put the new in, plumb it in, take it away, take away the package and do that as a seamless offer. So that, and we're trying to push and promote that with our merchant clients a lot harder because we actually think that that is the demand in the market rather than just what's the lowest cost way of getting it into somebody's home, job's done. Well, no, because the customer experience doesn't end until effectively the customer can go and turn that product on and start using it.

Yeah.

And that includes don't scuff up my floors when you're doing it. Don't chip the wood on the way past. Be nice 'cause you're in my home. All of that contributes to that promoter behaviour.

Even personal appearance and hygiene and things like that.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, you're absolutely right, Alex. And the thing I give credit to our customers about is when they get that, they are so positive about it. That's why I keep saying, imagine if they're at the other end of the scale or if they are positive about it, imagine what they're saying to others, not just what they're writing in a review.

Yeah.

So yeah, that's very interesting.

I know, I feel like I'm hogging questions, Alex. I'll pause for you and I know you've got your 5 in 5 coming up soon as well.

Hey everyone, thanks so much for tuning in. If you're loving this podcast, please give us a 5-star review. If you don't mind just changing tack a little bit, Joe, I was going to ask you about sort of how you go about building teams and sort of your management team, your Yeah, the wider organization, what's the secret there?

The hard questions now start to come out, Alex. How do you go about building teams? Well, it's a very iterative process for me anyway, Alex. I don't believe that there's a really simple way of building a team outside of, I highly value diversity of thinking in teams. So that is definitely a core component of the design component, if you like. But I think one of the things that you sort of need to get to really as quickly as you possibly can, I think there are 2 main things when you step into an organization and you start thinking about your team. One is, yep, you definitely have to do a pretty fast and critical evaluation of just the people that you're now working with, not in terms of—

Mm-hmm.

are they going to be right for the organization long-term? But can they work with you over the next whatever period to develop the clarity around strategy?

Yeah.

So that's the first part. Then the second part is get that strategic directional clarity as fast as you possibly can because that informs so many other things. And then, yeah, then from me, from my perspective, when I When I've gone into organisations, that's how I've approached it. And then when you sort of start to come out of that a little bit, you start to get much clearer about what do you need both from the team as a collective and then the individuals that constitute that team.

Yeah.

I suppose I see my role as helping us form that team, but also then get the potential out of the individuals and the potential of the team. So I'm often, assessing my role in all of that and what's my role now in phase 1, which might be from 0 to 9 months. What's my role then from 9 months through to 18? I'm always critically evaluating my piece in that to make sure that I'm giving them the opportunity to level up.

Right.

And if they're not leveling up, is that because I'm not giving them the space to do so or is that just Is that now other, you know, an issue that I now need to address in terms of capability? But diversity of thinking for me is a really big piece. So, you know, I go pretty hard on trying to work out what are the 4 or 5 key components for every role that's really important.

Okay.

And then what does the team need to be able to do? So are we rebuilding a strategy and trying to change the culture and, or are we, trying to take a pretty well-established way of working and strategy and really build on that and scale it. What are we really trying to do is a big piece of what goes into that build.

And you mentioned before, Joe, I can't remember the exact words. It was something about sort of defining and clearly articulating the company's value proposition or mission. Is that sort of I see that as being really consistent with probably your second point there around getting that strategic clarity. How do you go about getting and cutting through some of the noise to get that statement and then test it that it actually resonates with not just you, but the team of 1,200 who effectively execute? Maybe you could share the secret.

Look, I don't know if there's a secret, but it is a great question. It's probably one of the harder things that you do, David. So from my perspective, I probably like a lot of people that sort of step into CEO roles, they do that critical evaluation very early of what's key to the business, what's key to the culture, what's key to the people just to understand. But at some point, you've got to be able to, well, for me anyway, I've got to get to the reason why an organization exists. So I kind of like, I'd go to that why early in the piece. I go like, if we didn't exist tomorrow, would it make a difference? And if the answer to that is no, it wouldn't make a difference, then you've got to ask yourself the reason why that is the case. What are you not articulating clearly to yourself that relates to the value that you bring? So In the example of ANC, the team and I went through this. We had lots and lots of sessions, lots and lots of hours, not only unpacking the business, but unpacking and trying to understand what was going on in our sectors and our market. What is going on? What are we seeing? What's changing? What's moving? And then, yep, we use some basic tools. I'm a big fan of Good to Great and those. So I just use some Simple things like, well, we developed our flywheel. How does our business work? If we build on things, what unlocks potential in our business? We did the piece of work around, well, what is our real purpose? And that's why we're able to articulate that purpose is that our job is to unlock that potential within a transaction through some sort of exceptional customer experience. That is our purpose.

Yeah.

What that tells me as well is what's the stuff that we're not going to do. So we're not going to do middle mile logistics because that doesn't involve meeting that criteria. So we won't go into that space. Sometimes we'll do elements of it because it facilitates a customer outcome.

Yeah.

But we won't. So I think you've just got to in part prioritize it. And then you've got to keep grinding at it and grinding at it until you're able to articulate it. I think a lot of people talk about it's as important to understand the stuff you're not going to do as the stuff you are going to do, which means you should understand your place in the market. What is it that creates a difference? What is it? One of the things that I think my team know reasonably well that sort of grinds my gears a little bit is that I don't like, if we are sitting in front of a client and we're saying, well, tell us about ANC and what we do is prattle off a whole bunch of things we do, that's laundry list selling to me. That's just saying that here's the stuff we do. But if I go and compare that to our competitors, they can probably tick every single one of those boxes as well. So what's our point of difference? And that's when I get to that part around, well, what's the value proposition? What is it that we do today that creates value for our clients? And in our case, it is about that customer experience and it is about that ability to then link that to the way we can assist our clients generate sales. That's it. So if the problem we're trying to solve with the client doesn't relate to that, then We're in the wrong space. This is not something we can help with.

And I can certainly hear that and feel like that clarity of direction must be, it's got to be refreshing having that. It just, as you say, it cuts out all indecision, distraction, and this is what we're going to do. It's a guiding compass.

Yeah, I mean, I'm sure you guys have heard it many times and being part of it yourselves is the hardest thing you do as a leader is to try to get all the arrows in your business to align and head in one direction. And if you can't articulate your value prop and others in the organization can't do so, I mean, I think we've all heard the, our job here is to put the man on the moon. Everybody within the organization understands that very simple basic concept. And that's something that is unique to our organization and no other organization is trying to do. Or if there is, there's only one or two others doing it. But that's our clear value prop. And that's, to me, I think it's just a question of prioritizing that. For me, I prioritize that now. That's what I've learned the hard way in many instances. I think, no, you can't. And you can't do that 3 years into your tenure. Because what else have you been doing then?

That's right. And on average, you'll only get 6.

That's right. But I kind of go, if you've let 3 years slip by, without bringing that clarity, you've missed that opportunity to tell people that the reason why we're all here is to put the man on the moon.

Yeah.

So why would you leave it for 3 years? But it is easy to get caught up in the grind of the day-to-day and the business as usual and the need to deliver financial results, which is all the stuff you've got to balance. But I think if you can't drive that, then you can't go forward with a value proposition. And I mean, I kind of say that, why did I join ANC? Why did the shareholders of ANC want me to be part of the journey? It's not to just keep the car in the middle of the road and don't drive it off. And they could have done that. They're looking for something different. They're looking for us to go upwards. So to do that, you've got to be really clear about what that looks like.

Yeah. So Joe, thank you. Do you find you have to give yourself or prioritize space in your day where you can sort of take a step back and sort of give yourself that space, strategize?

Yeah, so I have to admit to some hard learnings here, Alex. So if I think about— and I think the advice I got from a former boss of mine was very much about— I mean, I'm sure we've all heard the joke about the old bull and the young bull. I was the young bull racing down to the back paddock rather than the old bull walking down and doing what I should have been doing properly. So I think there was a time where I was guilty, like probably a lot of business leaders where we're doing lots of things, we're trying to spark and stimulate lots of things going on and we've got busy calendars. At ANC, mine is probably one of the easiest calendars you could break into. I've got lots of white through my week and that is by design because I'm very clear about the 4 main things that I think are unique to my position that others don't do. And that does require me to have time to consider these things because this is what my team relies on. I think Drucker used to make the linkage that one of the key things that CEOs need to be able to do is link the outside to the in. What's going on in the market? What are you hearing? What do you know? What do you understand? What's your experience and your strategic capacity telling you that you need to help people inside the organization relate to and then let them go and do what they are doing on the back of that? Do I need to drive results or do I need to make sure that the activities that are going into delivering those are happening? So am I actually driving or am I monitoring? So I think they're the sort of things that for me, as I've sort of gotten older and learned some hard lessons different ways, is about understanding those 3 or 4 things that are actually unique to my position that nobody else in the team can really do. And I've got to make sure that I'm always doing those. Culture and standards and principles within our organization definitely sit with me. So, you know, if I— and But I need to be mindful that that doesn't mean I'm doing it all. So I have to allow myself time to always give consideration to that. So yeah, people go, oh, you must be very busy. Yeah, well, you know, I got time. I got time.

So I guess, yeah, you could potentially run the risk of if it's not blocked out, it can, well, it sounds like you must have a system in there to keep it sort of white and make time for—

Look, I think, and everybody's got their own style. My style definitely, Dave, is to help the team understand their autonomy, the individuals and the team as well.

Yeah.

So I really want my team taking up their full authority within their role, which requires me to make sure that I'm being really clear about my expectations and what they're accountable for. But then it's also my role to get out of their way and let them either operate as a team or operate at an individual level in accordance with that. And I think that's really easy to say, but I, and again, through my own bad practices at times and what I've observed from others, I often hear people saying it, but I don't see the behavior.

No.

I.e., the boss has popped in, the boss is in the meeting. Why are you in this meeting? Because as soon as you enter that meeting, you change the dynamic of it whether you like it or not. Now, sometimes you do it by design, but I think a lot do it by default. So that's how you create that space. You're right. I mean, it does take active management of your calendar, but I'm definitely not one of those. And sometimes I work at different times and I do all that sort of stuff, but I'm not one of these people that has to see pink and red and green and yellow on my calendar to think I think I'm having an impact. Definitely not.

Refreshing.

All right, Alex, well, I might let you sort of kick it into a different sort of energy and frequency of the questions. Maybe do you want to lead off with a couple of 5 and 5?

So Joe, these questions coming up, please do feel you can expand on them. So you're not timed, so don't worry. what is your favourite quote?

Alex, look, I don't know if I've got a favourite one, but I think the Henry Ford one in relation to the faster horses. If you ask the people what they wanted, the reason why that one relates, because I think one of the things that's always been a little bit of a guide for me is that it's actually your job to figure out what people need, not what they're telling you. Because often, and I think Steve Jobs had a kind of similar I am a little bit of a Steve Jobsophile, so guilty. I think a lot of what I've read and listened to in terms of those breakout thinkers is about the job that you have if you're selling a product or a service into the market is now you've got to keep asking, you've got to keep probing, you've got to be pushing to understand the need because the need is what drives the innovation, not the want. And it is a little bit like, for those of us who've got children, if you ask your children what they actually want, they'll tell you something that maybe you want to give them, maybe you don't. But in real terms, most of the role of a parent is actually getting past that want into what is it they really, really need. And that's why quite— that's a little quote that sometimes I— Yeah, but is this a faster horses one now? I've heard what you've said, but I don't know that that's actually what you're saying. We need to unpack it, which is the reason why we're using things like customer journey mapping as tools, because as tools, they're designed to unpack and unpack and unpack. It's the same around safety, around the 5 Whys. You don't take the first answer and say, that's it. You keep unpacking and delayering and delayering. I think that's what he was getting at.

Yeah, that's the process. Thank you. Has there been— well, you've mentioned one already, Good to Great— but has there been a book or poem that's had the biggest impact on you professionally or in your personal life?

Yeah, look, the Good to Great one certainly has as a toolkit, definitely. I think maybe it's a life one. Viktor Frankl's Man's Search for Meaning is just one of those ones for me that I've read a couple of times now and I think part of that is because aside from the humbling nature of the story, of course, is the lessons to be extracted from that, be they applied to life or business or people interaction, whatever they are. And so that one's definitely been impactful. And then—

Is he the one that was through the concentration camps?

Concentration camps. Yeah, a psychiatrist. Yeah, yeah. And developed, I guess, from that an extension of psychoanalysis as well that went with that. But it's almost built on sort of Stoic philosophy around control the elements that you can, which there's a passage in there, and I will not quote this correctly, but he said, you get down to a point where they've even stripped the visceral fat off your body. You've pretty much got nothing left except for the way you frame things in your mind. And the whole basis that I take out of that book through so many examples is the one thing that after 3 and a half years in a concentration camp he had left was how he framed things that were outside of his control. And that's the lesson, I guess, for all of us, right? There's no good or bad, it's just how we choose to frame it. So for such a The experience can't be validated in any form, but it's actually a relatively short read, but such an impactful one for me. So yeah, I'd highly recommend that to anybody because it's a positive, it's a very positive uplifting view on life. Look, and the other one is I love Walter Isaacson's biography on Steve Jobs because—

Of course.

There's somebody there for me that clearly a very flawed individual and aren't we all? But somebody that seemed to have that ability, that genius to look through things and look at the art of the possible and then find a way to make it real and to change things in such a dramatic way.

Yeah.

So yeah, I love that. And I love the fact that he's so flawed through it. I love the way Walter Isaacson's written that book. And I love the actual, the end part of the book where after Jobs has read it and clearly he's got an ego, a pretty healthy ego, even at that point where he's near death, that he was happy with the way it was all produced and presented. Great book. Brilliant.

Thank you. Do you have any passions or hobbies that we might not be aware of?

Oh, look, I'm a pretty simple guy. Look, the biggest one for me is I love training. So it's something that, you know, for me, you know, and I love mixing my training indoor and outdoor. So I am one of these guys that's, you know, out at sort of 6 o'clock in the morning. I have a mate of mine that I train with. Doesn't matter what the weather is, I'm out there. And I have this kind of rule around it that basically—

Yeah.

Within 10 minutes of me being out there, I've got to be in shorts and a singlet. I allow myself a beanie because I obviously don't have a lot of hair, but that's it. That's my thing. And it's one of those passions that's developed because I know it helps me manage myself as well, not just physically but mentally as well.

I remember when we first met you, Joe, I think at a mastermind session, we had a dinner on that night and you're like, oh no, I've I've gotta have an early night because I can't remember what you're doing. It's like 50 days or something every day you're working out or it was like—

Yeah, I was working out a lot, but it was also, I'm over 50 now. I've sort of had this maybe slightly unrealistic target for myself that I'm gonna continue to make gains. And so to understand that more and I do like to sort of trial things on myself a little bit. And yeah, definitely there was a piece of that I have a feeling that might have been in the winter, Dave. I can't remember, but I was convinced that by being out there in singlet and shorts, which is now just habit and it has been for quite a few years now, that you actually burn more calories in working out in the cold with limited clothing on. So I don't know whether that leaves me in a good light or a bad, but that's it.

It certainly shows the discipline.

What has been your longest distance then?

I lift weights, knees are shot from playing footy, so I'm not a runner. I'm a lifter of weights.

Fair enough. If you could mentor your younger self, what would you say? What advice would you give?

What would I give to my younger self? Look, definitely, certainly around live more Live more under the spotlight rather than projecting out. So definitely focus more on the today and think less about the future scenarios. I think there's definitely an element of that. And take the time to acknowledge your achievements. So if I was to quote my wife, I'm a terrible goalpost mover. And I think I always have been. And I think that's been to my detriment. So if I was talking to my younger self, I would definitely say, you know, you don't have to go crazy, you know, but acknowledge your achievements, not just the next thing and the next thing and the next thing. So yeah, definitely. Well, that's what I say to others now. So I'm assuming that's what I would say to myself.

Yeah, I know.

That's it.

That's our 5. At this stage, would you mind if I sort of come back a little bit to and sort of retouch on what we were talking about earlier when you were talking about transformation of your systems, the hard versus soft? I guess for me, I'm quite interested in how you drive change in an organization, what that takes.

Yeah, no, it's definitely one of the 4 key things that I think sit under the responsibility of the leader is to understand And the magnitude of change that you're trying to promote within your organization. Is it, you've got clarity on your strategy and now how do you help rebuild the organization to accommodate and drive that strategy? And I think that's definitely been ANC's focus over the last couple of years. That certainly, that's what I've been trying to promote. So we became, We got to a point where directionally we understood where we wanted to go, building on what the business was already good at doing in parts. So if we could consolidate that, if we could make it more consistent and then really leverage that with clarity, we felt like we had a proposition in the market that would differentiate us from others and really push home that fact that we are a last mile specialist that can create value for clients. But when you go to the underlying systems and processes and the way people within the organization have been working, there was an inconsistency. So I think with any change and transformation, I think for me there's always an element of what's the hard stuff and what's the soft stuff. The soft stuff is more about what do you want people to align to and support and do. The hard stuff is, yeah, but I actually need you to behave that way or operate that way. Do that, make that your focus. And that's not, I actually inherently believe that most people aren't emotionally resistant to change. I think it's more that you've got to be able to help them understand what it is, the change that you're trying to put in place.

Yeah.

So a good example of that is around just things like basic processes. So over the last sort of 12 to 18 months, we've been resetting a lot of processes within our business to make them customer-centric. Now, a lot of organizations say, hey, we've got customer-centric processes, but more often than not, the one stakeholder that gets kicked to the curb when things don't go right is unfortunately the customer. So what we've done as part of that is we've gone, no, okay, let's reworkshop our most critical underlying operational processes and put the customer in the middle of that, which says, how do we make sure that outcome is delivered to customer and rewrite those processes and then support those with the right KPIs, targets, and metrics that go on the people that are doing that every day. So the hard stuff for me is about what happens every day and the softer stuff is what people believe and the clarity of that. And I think you've got to do both. You've got to iterate around both consistently. It's never you do lots of one and then lots of the other. You do a bit of this, bit of that. But I think there's a point where transformationally, then you then have to drive hard to rebuild underlying elements of the business to align with the way you want it to be and then continue to develop your management competencies or your leadership competencies to continue to promote your strategy. So for us, it's been rewriting processes, reorganizing elements of our business more investing in tech that allow us to better leverage those systems and processes. And I think the mistake, and we were definitely guilty of these mistakes, is sometimes you look at what you've been investing in and you sort of realize that you haven't been taking enough of a systemic approach to how you work. And again, that is the role of a leader. I think you've got to be thinking system because it's natural for people to go towards Well, there's a problem. Our customer service people are dealing with lots of volume. How do we fix the way they manage that volume? Whereas your job is to ask, well, why do we have so much volume in our customer service area?

Yeah.

What's the systemic issue there and how does that relate? So I think that ability to separate the hard and the soft and understand that, because a lot of people when they talk about customer centricity, Focus a lot on the soft stuff, the communication. We went through and redefined our values and principles very early on in the piece.

Yeah.

And we made it very clear that what we wanted to do was not to create values. Actually, what we wanted to make was decision-making principles. So part of what's allowed us and helping us drive that transformation is we've defined a set of decision-making principles. So make decisions based on these principles and you're good. So part of that is around sparking the change that you want. What does that mean? And then coding it in. It's hard plumbing it in so that once we've done that, that is our way of working and we just continue to build on that. So I don't know if that quite answers your question, Alex, but—

I think it sort of talks to that hard and soft element. Yeah.

And measuring it. I mean, I think most people will tell you that if you don't measure that improvement, that change, it will revert back. If you don't reorganize to make sure that your people are only focusing on what's most critical, you'll spring back to ways that you were working or people will develop new workarounds to the way you want to work. Yeah, fantastic.

That's great advice.

Well, yeah, absolutely. And thank you, Joe. Today's conversation has been so engaging and I've really enjoyed sort of chatting and sort of feeling your energy and passion. Clearly you're in the right role, in the right industry at the right time. So it's really quite infectious actually. I feel like I want to go and work at ANC as well. But I mean, we've asked a lot of questions today and thrown a lot sort of at you and appreciate sort of your openness and candidness and talking us through from a leadership to sort of what's happening in the industry and business. Was there anything we didn't cover that you thought, oh guys, you didn't ask me about X and that's something I wanted to share or just sort of leave an open question? or a reverse question for you to wrap things up.

Look, I think I've had that leave an open question. So one of the things that fascinates us a little bit, so one of the things that we are obviously doing is we want to test our strategy or our conceptions with people out there. So are we right to think that if we give customers choice and expectation that that will drive positive value. So maybe one question that if I was to leave to people is, how important does that element of choice and self-determination, how important is that to you? So if I was asking you 2 guys that, would you make choices on the back of that? Would you spend your money accordingly? It's not a deeply philosophical question, But there is so much different views out there. We obviously harbour the view that increasingly the more you give people choice, the more choice they want. We've taken examples out of the banks and others that initially maybe some of their strategies were criticised. Now you try to take us off internet banking and I think there'd be a revolt, right?

Yeah.

Whereas when it was first introduced, people were going, are banks just abdicating their responsibilities?

Yeah.

So, you know, it's, that's probably the open-ended question. You know, does that philosophy hold true that the more choice you give customers, the more choice customers want?

It's an interesting question. I mean, if I had a crack at it, like, I think it's a spectrum. Like, I think there's probably, if I think about one example, which I've experienced, which is Telstra, who's dropping a modem off, they can drop it off between, I think it was 8 AM and 12 in the day. So I'm like, or you can have us drop it off between 1 and 6. Those 2 choices weren't so appealing. So I didn't like that element of choice, but I liked, I guess, that they didn't block out the whole day. Maybe at the other end of the spectrum, I'm a craft beer fan. I go to the fridge in the local shop next to my house and I've got too much choice. So I'm sort of paralyzed by, is it a hazy pale ale or pale ale? And I'm like, gosh, it used to be so easy when it was BV Draft or maybe one other one. So I don't know, I think maybe it's the spectrum of different choices. What do you think, Alex?

Yeah, I suspect there's a limit to how much choice people want or can process at once before it becomes a problem with themselves.

Relative choice.

Yeah, and I think they're good perspectives. Is it choice? Is it control? Is it assurance? Is it reliability? Is it a What are the things that we now sort of expect as a standard? Maybe the other way to think about it, is it more that maybe the pendulum is swinging slightly back to the customer or maybe to the customer for the first time that sort of says, well, I bought something, I should have a good understanding and maybe some choice as to when I receive that good or how it— I think it's Increasingly for me, it feels more like that where we're moving to as a society is that people want to control that, that self-service, to have more influence over that and self-determine that. I mean, if I talk to my kids, my kids don't like talking to people on the phone. They'd rather interact through their phone, right?

That's right.

Their preference is to be able to have that interaction through that mechanism and have some visibility as to when their promise is going to be fulfilled. One of the other interesting ones for me, which I reflected on a little bit, is for my children, they see the transaction from the point I order it to the point I get it, not just when I order it. So if I walk into a store and there's a delivery requirement, the transaction's not done until I have it.

Yeah.

In whatever form that looks like, which is a little bit different to probably my old mindset, which was Oh, well, I've bought it now, it'll come at some point. No, no, for them it's, well, I bought it and I'm going to receive it then. Yeah. And I want visibility of that.

Yeah, I think also just having thought about that sort of briefly, it's great to have a bit of choice in terms of when it's delivered, when it's going to be delivered, whatever product it is, but to have a bit of sort of assurance and knowledge around where it is in time, I think that's great. So as you know, to your point earlier saying like, you know, get a phone call going, well, it's only 15 minutes away, it's like, well, I've been waiting around for it. It's a bit of a shock. Sometimes it's just a knock on the door, it's here, you don't feel ready. But if you've got sight of where it is along that journey, I think that's quite powerful. It just calms you down a bit. You can plan for it.

And it hands back that sense of control perhaps back to the customer. Somebody gave me that example of if I was to turn around to Dave and say, hey Dave, we're having Chinese tonight. Dave might go, well, hang on a minute, are we having Chinese tonight? Whereas if I said to Dave, Hey Dave, we've got the choice of Chinese or Thai tonight, but I think the Thai may or may not be available. I think the Chinese is available. What do you think? Dave says, I think Chinese is good. Same outcome, but somehow Dave feels like he's in control of the process and it's a much more viable one. I mean, look, the only other thing I would, if I could just make it as a comment, Dave, Alex, I just wanted to give kudos to what the MentorList are doing around, like we talked a little bit about leadership and the importance of that. I think the forums that you guys are creating that really help some of this stuff, I'll say quite unashamedly, I've tested around that table in select pieces. We've talked about transformation. We've had people come in and talk to us about their journey around change. I'm certainly open enough to say I've begged, borrowed, and stolen as much as I possibly could in that, even, and coupled that with my own experiences as well as part of that. So I think that's been terrific. And I think having a forum and continuing to open up forums around leadership conversations is so important because it isn't— there isn't a rule book, there isn't a playbook. People's expectations are always shifting as well. I mean, we could have God knows how many of these conversations around staff requirements and people requirements, and we've had some of those around the table and we can see how much they've shifted through the period of COVID alone. And I think that's as dynamic environment as any customer expectation environment is as well.

Okay, so we're going to sort of switch up a little. And Alex, I know you've been patiently waiting for to fire these rapid-fire questions you've carefully crafted whilst thinking about Joe. So over to you, mate.

Too easy. So Joe, just whatever comes first.

Okay.

All right, here we go.

You ready? Ready.

Bike or car?

Car.

Cats or dogs?

Cats.

Netflix or YouTube?

Netflix.

Phone calls or texts?

Texts.

Beach or snow?

Snow.

Drone or remote control car?

Remote control car.

Dining out or home cooking?

Home cooking.

Passenger or driver?

Definitely driver.

Augmented reality or virtual reality?

Ooh, augmented.

Tea or coffee?

Coffee.

Marketing or sales?

Sales.

TV or book?

TV.

Strategy or implementation?

Strategy.

Beer or wine?

Both.

Wine. Racket sports or motorsports?

Motorsports.

Chocolate in the fridge or pantry?

Fridge.

Pineapple on pizza, yes or no?

No.

Electric or petrol?

Petrol.

Cash or card?

Card.

PC or Mac?

Mac.

Still or sparkling?

There you go.

There we go.

Good stuff.

Well done. That must reveal some interesting, you know, when you profile that.

It does. I like the cats and dogs one because it does sort of, it's like, oh, okay, Joe's a cat person. Or beer or wine. I thought you were going to say neither, but you're down for both.

Yeah, both essential for a good evening.

But I am old enough, I think, Dave, to say I'm not going to drink a bad version of either.

You are good.

It's kind of like one of those ones where I'm going to go buy a bottle of wine, it's going to be a good bottle of wine. And I was listening to a really interesting podcast actually. It was a guy that actually runs a large equity business in the US, but he was on the plane that landed on the Hudson.

Oh yeah.

I forgot his name. I can't remember his name, but he was talking about, and he's got this expression that he uses, which is I collect shit. I think he said shit wines, bad wines. And, you know, immediately, what do you mean you collect bad wines? He said, well, because I drink the good ones. So, so the only thing I end up with in my collection is bad wines. And so it's all part of living life. So if you're going to open a bottle of wine, make it a good one, you know. So I like that one. Collect the bad wines. Collect the shit wines.

Yeah.

Fantastic. He sounds like a good host.

Well, that's all right. That's what it sort of sounded like, wasn't it? If you're going to go for dinner, you know you're going to get a decent bottle of wine.

Well, I mean, if you've been a passenger on a plane that's come down and you've survived, you're like, the first thing you're going to go out is go and live your life.

But it is, it's a, it's a really interesting listen because he describes in some detail what it felt like, you know, to— they all thought they were going to die, you know, and, and what it means to be Give them that second chance.

Yeah. Well, we were chatting sort of before we got going today and we're talking about some other podcasts out there like the Tim Ferriss one and the sort of the concept of the 4-Hour Workweek. And you're sharing, well, how that would sort of help focus what your actual job description or what you should be doing was.

Yeah. I think there's a lot in that. I think if I think about my own journey about sort of evolving or learning to become a leader, that, you know, people often talk about the, you know, the must-dos, the could-dos, the should-dos, all that sort of stuff. I actually only think that there's only ever room for the musts. And so the hardest thing to figure out is what is really essential. So if you only had 4 hours a week to give as a leader, what would you do? And I think one of the things that a lot of leaders— we're all guilty of in some regards— is diving into areas in businesses and organizations that It's our job really to pull ourselves out of those and help people elevate into those roles rather than go the other way around. So yeah, I think it's a discipline that's worth thinking about. If you only had 4 hours a week, where would you put them?

Absolutely.

Do the essential only.

Thanks, Joe.

Where did you go to sort of learn leadership in that sense? Was it on the job or was it—

Look, I think, Alex, for me it definitely started at home when I was young, being the product of immigrant Italian parents where you watch them do whatever they have to do for the benefit of the family that you're growing up in. We didn't have a lot of money, to be fair. We had very little money. My father had a pretty significant truck accident when I was 5, and I'm the eldest. Which, you know, he spent 4 months in traction, like really bad at the time. And then you watch him recover from that and you watch him go and turn his hand to something completely different because his body now says he has to. And you just watch and learn and grow through that. And you watch your mum and dad struggle and find different ways. You know, that leaves a pretty big imprint from, you know, what's important and what's not. And I think that's a big aspect.

Yeah.

perspective of leadership. And then you go and apply yourself, you develop a work ethic that goes with that. And then I guess from my perspective, just watching some great leaders and maybe some not great leaders as you evolve and what works and what doesn't work. So I think there's also, if I had to be brutally honest with myself, I think I came to a point in my career where I had to ask myself the question as to whether or not I really enjoyed being a leader. And that was really useful for me because I answered that question and said, yeah, actually, that's the part I really love most about the job. So I do think you've got to have a sort of a bit of a real desire to want to be a leader.

Absolutely. And what else does it take to be a good leader in your view?

Look, for me, I think a big, big part about leadership is clarity and helping people understand what is it that we're trying to collectively accomplish? And then at a more individual level, leaders trying to understand your people and then go, well, what do I need to do to help unlock the potential in that individual?

Yeah.

And sometimes there are some hard parts of that in the sense of, well, even if we unlock that potential, that person is not going to be able to contribute what we need and therefore make the decision and make it faster and earlier to change. But I think that's sort of the collective clarity around the direction we're going and then the part that goes at a more individual level, you know, how do I unlock that potential?

Oh, thank you, Joe. And thank you for contributing back into this forum and into sort of the listenership.

I love it. Thank you for the opportunity. It's been fantastic. Thank you.

Well, thanks, Joe. Thanks for your time today. And we'll get you on your way. I think your parents will be waiting to probably see you.

Probably tracking my phone as I speak. Good on you guys.

Thanks so much.

Thank you very much.

Hey, this is Alex. If you enjoyed the content so far and you want us to do more, if you want to hear more, click the subscribe button. It allows us to bring on more guests in the future. Thanks.