Dan Koe & Dickie Bush On One-Person Businesses, Creative Workflows, and Lifestyle Design

What's up, man? Mr. Dan Coe, how we doing?

I'm good, man.

Dude, I'm excited for this. Um, I guess framing this is we're here in Scottsdale. I've been here since Thursday, Sunday now, and wanted to get this conversation on the books. When did we plan this? Monday, something like that? Pretty, pretty short.

It was very short.

Quick turnaround.

Yeah, because you didn't even come out here for this. It was more so Like, you had something planned. The idea came to mind. We executed.

And here we are.

Yeah.

Yeah. I knew that I was only going to be here for a certain amount of time, and getting this was a priority. Because— so why are we here? We've known each other now for 2 years, a little over 2 years, probably sometime in 2020. And a lot has happened. During that time. And I think catching up, like, we haven't sat down and said, damn, what's really happened over the last couple years? Where are we at now? How did we get here? And I think it'd just be fun to go over all that— life, fitness, business, pretty much everything we got going on.

Yep. Now, I like how you framed it, um, earlier, where this is what we would've wanted when we were just starting out is like long, unfiltered, unedited for the people that like that kind of stuff. Like I personally enjoy very long-form content. Like a lot of the time when I'm not looking specifically for like a strategy or something else, it's more so to gain perspective so that I can approach a strategy or like generate ideas or— Yeah. set a new goal or just gain clarity on what it is. Because throughout this entire 3 hours, there might be one thing that one person picks up that changes the entire course of their life, even if that thing is insignificant to us right now. And I liked how you— we talked briefly before we started about how, like, we— I personally, I don't know if it's an aspiration for you. I want to hear about that. But it was an aspiration for me to become not necessarily a YouTuber, but like the people that I looked up to that I aspired to be like when I was a kid. And at that time it was like fitness YouTubers that I was watching. It was, and then that branched into like podcasts I was listening to. And that really opened me up to like what is becoming possible with this entire space and where things are moving in terms of not only like the creator economy, but— just what's possible for the individual to achieve and what's even more possible once they find people with those shared goals, shared purpose, shared perspective to kind of 10x the power of what it is that we're building. And this is already sparking a lot of ideas, so we can break this down subtly. But—

I think for context, we are the same age, 27.

26.

When do you turn 27?

October 22nd.

OK, cool. So I just turned 27. Last Saturday, we have very similar inspirations. Like you said, fitness YouTubers. I think we started. We have interesting similarities in our fitness journeys, business journeys, all that. And so that I think we look up to very similar people and have similar inspirations. And like you said, those people that we look up to whenever. I was exploring or listening to them. I loved these long-form conversations, especially when two of them would get together that didn't really interact that much, right? Because you got to see them. A lot of times they would operate in their own lane, and then getting seeing them together and letting their ideas mix. And we're fortunate now. It's still kind of interesting and funny to say, but like we've become those people for a lot of. individuals on Twitter, Instagram, YouTube, all that. And getting our ideas back and forth, I think, is going to be fun. Who knows how long we'll go today? I think 3, 4 hours. We'll see. I got plenty of caffeine. So

yeah. Same. No, it's— I want to know who your, like, first inspirations were, the ones that actually stick out in your head. Because for me, the first people was like the golden era of fitness YouTube where it was like Matt Ogus, Chris Lovato, or Yucky Lovato, and they had like Legends of Aesthetics. They started their clothing brand. That was when Gymshark was just starting up. I don't know what happened to them recently, but it was them, Joe Delaney. And my favorite things were when they got together like this. Hmm. they either did Q&As or it was just the unfiltered, like, back and forth questioning. So like one of my favorite videos in— well, it was from this guy, Abdullah Zineb. If you've never checked him out, dude, he's severely underrated, but it's because he's like just dropping straight heat and he doesn't care or give a shit to like cater to the algorithm. Mm-hmm. He's this insane endurance bike rider. He started out with like Olympic lifting, and then he met up with like Matt Ogus, Yuki Lovato. He became like friends with them. That's how I was introduced to him. And like he's done just insane shit, and he just comes with these philosophical lessons from it, from endurance racing. And I could go into like weird stories that I've heard from him, but he was like riding one time, and he just didn't want to stop. He was riding for Hours straight, like staying at hotels, getting straight back on the bike. He was literally shitting his pants on the bike because he did not want to stop. Like he was just deep in the trenches, and that's what he talks about. I don't know; it's it's those type of videos where you wouldn't expect to pull an insight from it because I'm not an endurance bike rider. But at the same time, it's like holy shit! Like this guy can go forty hours riding. As hard as he can while putting himself through the wringer, living homeless, like nothing to his name, scraping by and still just doing— that's what he likes to do. It's like he's found joy in— it's like David Goggins, but I think it's more extreme. Like he does— I don't think he— he probably has a home now, but during the time he was like homeless. Hmm. He was riding across the country scavenging food. here and there for an endurance bike race, which is insane, and all of those different things. So I hope that we can drop some insights.

And I've— what, what's so cool about that is you've developed a relationship with him and watched so much of his content. And same with those guys, Matt Ogus, like that golden era of what— that was probably 2014, 2015, like early, early YouTube. Those videos are 7, 8 years old. And you have developed a relationship with those people just by them documenting their life.

They've influenced my entire journey. Exactly. And I'm not even in the fitness space.

Me too. Me too. And I think fitness is definitely a— and that could be just where we start with some of this, but it is a funnel into everything else, I think, because you take ownership of your fitness and your overall health and it's a gateway drug to business, to taking just full ownership of everything. But why don't we start with when— because I know we can spend a lot of time on that because I think our fitness journeys are very similar in terms of how we got to where we were. But we met when? It was like mid-2020, I think. Yeah. I shot you a DM after listening to you on Danny Miranda's podcast. Right, we'd both been guests at that point, and Danny's up to like a couple hundred episodes at this point, and we were pretty early on there. And this was at the time when we probably had, what, 10,000 Twitter followers, 15,000 Twitter followers, something like that, still trying to figure that all out. Like, maybe it

was probably— I think it was a bit higher.

Okay.

It was like, I think I was at like 50, you were at like 100K.

Really?

Yeah. Oh, because you were flying at that point. Like, I was just like sitting back watching it, like about the writing. But that's what was interesting to me is that you realize, like the shared interests where it's like, at the time it's like, I only think you are interested in writing because that's your niche. Mm-hmm. And then you may only think that I was interested in something else, but then you get on a podcast, you get introduced to like what these people are interested in. And it's like, oh, like you like this thing or you're on this fitness journey. I resonated with it a lot. Let's connect. And now—

Here we are.

We're here.

That's a good point because I think you can, on Twitter especially, you can talk about a very specific thing and become known for that thing. But, and I think that's a pretty good strategy in the beginning of just talking about what you're learning, what you're interested in, all that. But then you get on these kind of conversations and you hear someone talk about everything they're interested in and That's how you know you're aligned with them, right? Because I've been in a— finding people like you that see the world similarly to me has always been a challenge throughout my whole life.

Right.

I talked about this on Danny's podcast, but like growing up, I was extremely obsessive with everything I did. Like Rubik's Cube, I was a speed— Dude, same. Dude, and—

Did you do stack cups or whatever those things are?

I never got into stack cups, but I wanted to. 5th grade, I was a professional speedcuber, like 18 seconds, going to tournaments, and everyone— I mean, like, I was not cool at all. Right. But I mean, video games, all of that was always— I would start later than other people. My friends would start something and I'd still be on the old thing, and then I'd be like, oh, that looks interesting, let me go do that. And then I would pick it up quickly, become fully obsessed with it, and then have to go find new people to do that, play that game with. And that has repeated many times over in my life. And I think it's happening right now.

In what sense?

Well, with like meeting you, right? When you first start playing the Twitter game or playing any social media game, you're kind of just figuring it out on your own. And then as you progress, you continually have to find people that are interested in continuing to take it to another level, right? I always struggled with that in school because you didn't have the power of the internet. It was like if you surpassed your friends, you just were kind of stuck. Like, there was a reason that I was doing all those things on my own.

You kind of isolate, you make yourself lonely though.

And the internet has completely democratized the ability to find other people that are interested and All it taught me was that obsession was not a bug in my personality. It was a feature, right? Where instead of— I picked this thing up, I got good at it, and then there was like not resentment, but you just— that self-induced loneliness of no one else is doing this like I am. Does that mean I'm doing something wrong? And I think parents, not my parents, but other parents, society in general, discourages that kind of obsession and intensity that you can bring to things. And that's why I'm so passionate about people putting their ideas out on the internet, because you become able to find the other people where you realize you are not alone in that, right?

Yeah, dude. The— I feel like one thing that always freaks people out to an extent, and it's very difficult to understand without actually doing it and without experience. Like the one thing I love actionable advice, everyone does. But at the same time, it's like, it's prescriptive. It's not gonna teach you the nuances that experience will teach you. Mm-hmm. It's not gonna make things click for you. And one of those things is just putting out your ideas where if, and especially people have trouble breaking out of their niche or like something that they not forever, but something that they like when they're talking about their expertise and money's on the line, they're doing it for lead generation. They need to build a business, whatever it may be. And they're freaked out that making one tweet out of 40,000 over their entire lifetime on something like their fitness progress is going to ruin their account. And so they keep it. Hmm. They suppress it. But it's so interesting what kind of people can find and spread that message. Where Justin Scott said like the internet is the great attractor. And after like so much time in the game, like we have such diverse audiences that it's easy, or not easy, but it's crazy how many people have those nuanced interests that you think are weird, but you won't know if someone else likes them unless you put the idea out. If that makes sense. So it's like, I like to think of it as whenever you tweet, you're kind of putting it out into a void. Like you can assume what kind of engagement or like who's gonna read it, but it could end up on the entire different side of the internet just because someone found it interesting. Where it's like, I posted content and I have people like John Cena following me out of nowhere. Mm-hmm. Right? Or these DJs that I've been seeing for years or even Yucky Lovato, like Chris Lovato, DM'd me one time just out of nowhere. He was like, dude, I love your content. And I was like, no fucking way. Like, you're in my DMs right now, dude? And we talked for a good amount of time. Yeah. And it was insane. It's like how you can attract these people simply by putting your ideas out on the internet, kind of into the void and letting them circulate, get better with time and attract the right people, which I don't mean to drag on here, but it's such a different, Like, I really see the internet marketing space shifting quite a bit because before it was like, okay, you need to learn how to find this perfect target, do this customer avatar market research, figure out where they are, send a hyper-tactical message. And now it's so much more broad. It's the opposite end of the spectrum where I can put out like, I don't necessarily recommend only putting out simple platitude tweets, but I could put out some just random tweet. And that could lead to a client, that could lead to a friend, that could lead to me traveling across the country. You don't really know unless you stick it out for a certain amount of time and like trust that something good will come of it.

I think it's, it's an iterative game for sure in terms of figuring out what you like to talk about. Now, when we met, you talked a lot more about fitness at the time.

Yep.

Right? And that has evolved now into more of the one-person business, more of the creator economy, that kind of thing. And I actually am curious to hear, because you went on maybe a year ago-ish, like you got off the grid for like 2 or 3 weeks. And I remember you sent me a voice note when you got back. It was like, You had a bunch of realizations, and one of them was like, I'm not going to talk about fitness anymore. I'm only going to talk about these things. What happened during that time? Because like you said, you can talk about a ton of things. You figure out what you really like to talk about. I just want to know because I think that would be helpful for people, and I can kind of share my evolution of things too.

Yeah. So fitness is— Well, it's a part of everyone's life, but it's like a major part of my life. That's the thing that I started with. That's the thing I've experimented with to no end. And during that time when I kind of just went off-grid and stopped talking about it, I found myself becoming very dogmatic about like certain things that were being promoted on Twitter. Mm-hmm. And it's not limited to Twitter by any means, but I found myself in this little pocket of advice that didn't seem to have the right context behind it. And so, I started experimenting with eating raw liver from Liver King. That's only one example. That's an extreme example. And I found myself without— it's like, yeah, I noticed some benefits, But I kind of just conformed to that mindset of like, I'm doing this weird thing. I'm gonna talk about it because it gets engagement. Mm-hmm. It got engagement that reinforced it. And then I slowly realized like, okay, I'm like pushing this weird piece of advice that is, is helpful. But like, I don't want to become one of the people that just acts as if it's an absolute necessity for every single person. Mm-hmm. And I don't have the time to, uh, like, if I were to keep fitness in my brand, I'd really feel like I'd have to dedicate so much more time to it to bring like the holistic perspective to it in order to properly educate people. And so that didn't feel right to me, throwing some things out here and there where it's like, like a tweet or a video where it's like, here's how to 10x your energy. Eat raw liver, drink mountain spring water,

right?

Uh, put salt in your water and all of these little esoteric things that are straying further and further away from the principles of fitness or, or just health in general.

The high-level stuff, the basics. Yeah.

And then, and then I found myself stopping or, or feeling bad if I like didn't abide by it. Like if I had an artificial sweetener, I'd be like, I need to tell Twitter that, like, I need to confess for my sins. And so that's when I was like, okay, fuck this, I'm stopping all of it. And then I like went in the complete opposite direction just to see what would happen. And so I was like eating, and this was like a conscious experiment where I knew that I may damage my health. And so I was eating like more fried foods, I was going out a lot more, um, and I, I learned, or I kind of cert— like came back full circle to Just experimenting and finding what works best for you. And if some— and you just have to be conscious of the mistakes that you're making through self-reflection, where it's like, if I go out one weekend and have a good time and maybe have too much of a good time, drink way too much, and it's impacting my work and my goals and everything else, and it's preventing me from making progress, and I don't internalize that and I let that drag on, and those goals continue to— Go unachieved, then yeah, that's a major problem and I need to do something about it. But that's the thing. That's the entire essence of life is like making mistakes on your own, by your own doing, without where it's like, if I hadn't gone, if I hadn't like consciously experimented with the fitness information that I had in my head, like the knowledge that I had around fitness, and consciously put myself in a place where I was going to make mistakes, then I wouldn't— it would just— I'm having trouble articulating this where it's like you need to make mistakes. Hmm. Rather than adopting one specific diet, business model, relationship ideology, you have to experiment with multiple things and figure out Like, okay, how is this going to be implemented in my life in a sustainable way that will allow me to reach my goals but not become— not take over and take away from other things in life that may be beneficial? That was the big takeaway I got from it, is where it's like writing anything off for good, even if it's like the worst thing in the world, which I'll probably never touch, like the worst drugs in the world. Of course. Maybe, who the fuck knows? But like, you have to approach it from the place of, I don't know, you can't find what you enjoy if you don't find what you don't enjoy. Right. That's slowly becoming apparent.

Where I think the higher level principle of what you just said was when you were writing and talking a ton about the fitness journey, It was public experimentation, right? You were figuring it out as you went.

But it wasn't framed as that. And that was my problem.

Exactly, exactly. And then once you get those basics down, then you have to start talking about the new things you're doing. And that gets into the more esoteric side of things, the liver and whatnot. And at that point, it turns away from, I'm experimenting, to, Because I'm experimenting with things that are less of the fundamentals, I feel like I have to justify why I'm doing it in a sense.

Yeah.

Right? And I mean, your fitness journey is relatively similar to mine. Like, 5 years ago, I was 280 pounds. So less. And you were never drastically overweight, I don't think.

Not drastically. Yeah. But I definitely bulked a bit too hard.

Right? I mean, so I played football in college. And so it wasn't like I was in— in poor shape. But right when I took my last snap and I could no longer play football, I basically was 280 pounds and said, I have to figure this out. I was either going to 380 or 180, right? And so as I was taking my steps, I started to kind of think and write publicly about that, of what I'm trying, what I'm doing, as a way of crystallizing that experimentation. Right? And I think that's the higher-level principle here is you want to be doing that experimentation and sharing it. And this beyond fitness, sharing that journey is what people are interested in.

Yeah.

Right? Because they want to see that you are— you don't have it all figured out. And if I've learned anything of getting to meet these people who we've looked up to for a long time, they were figuring it it all out along the way as well.

Yeah.

Right? And so that takes a lot of pressure off too, right? Instead of, hey, I need to go be an expert in this and then tell everyone that I'm an expert.

Yeah.

And completely flip it and say, I actually have no clue what I'm doing most of the time.

It works so much better.

It's so much better, so much easier. And you learn because of that, right? You take that beginner's mindset of, I'm going to put things out through the lens of, Here's what I'm trying. Here's what I'm thinking. Anyone else interested in this? And this goes back to how you attract those people. It's, hey, I'm running those similar experiments too, right? So most of my tweets and content and things I'm thinking about right now are always through the lens of I'm trying to learn this. It's like a reminder to myself, or here's what I'm currently learning. I'm gonna try to distill that and then hear what other people have to think about it.

Yeah. And I think that's why I was so, I liked watching those people so much is because they approached it from, they approached everything from an open mind where it's like, this is what I'm doing. It may work, you should try it out, but it doesn't matter at the end of the day. Like this isn't the end-all be-all. And that's what I started to realize more and more with social media. And the more you get on it, And the more you get immersed, this can be a very potentially dangerous thing for people that are just starting out is like finding those little pockets where people are giving out confidence or confident advice, which is a good thing. But you have to approach everything with a critical mind and you have to take into account the context and goals that everyone is working towards because this applies to much, much more than health. And this is also another reason why I kind of like went off-grid is because I found myself in a radical pocket of the internet. And it was people, like, it was all the COVID information or even wearing masks and other things. And I started intentionally exposing myself to other sides of the argument. So I started researching the opposite, like, are seed oils good for me? Mm-hmm. Right? And I found some stuff, But then that just showed me that any side can, any side of any argument, regardless of health, politics, whatever, it can be argued on either side to the end of the world, right? And just picking one side without regard for that seems to just be the source of suffering in someone's life. When you attach to some form of idea or ideology, that is the source of your suffering because you're gonna— Mm-hmm. Like when people challenge it or people are getting results with something else, then it's gonna threaten you and you're going to feel the need to defend that. And it's only gonna dig those pockets of the internet deeper and deeper. And so that's what I'm trying to move away from is to try and give more holistic advice where it's like, I like the one-person business model. I love Twitter and I'll give you all the information I can here. But I try to preface everything with like, make sure this is aligned with your goals. Like if you wanna try it out because you have nothing to try out, go ahead and do it. Mm-hmm. But at the end of the day, like there may be a better option for you and I want you to keep your mind open to that and not get in these petty little arguments online about the best outreach strategy or the best way to write a tweet or the best way to grow on a platform. It's like, there's so many different ways to do it. And the fun is found when you, that's where the joy in our lives come from. is through experimenting and figuring out a solution, creating some form of value, and then passing it off to others in a non-dogmatic way. That's like where a lot of joy in my life comes from.

Have you found, or you ever read that article from Paul Graham, Keeping Your Identity Small? Mm-mm. It's all about— That sounds good. It's a very good article. It's all about you want to minimize the number of labels that you give yourself, right? I am a, someone who follows the ketogenic diet, or I am an intermittent— like, whatever you— that's on the health side. But the more labels you attach to yourself, the more you are going to fall victim to consistency bias, which is Cialdini's, like, number one driver of human behavior is aligning on some kind of identity you formed for yourself. Right. So, when you prescribe to a specific dogma, right? And then you do something. I think your point on the source of suffering is literally acting out of alignment to some kind of label or identity that you've crafted for yourself.

It can be spun in a positive way too. This is something I've been writing a lot about, not in public, but in private for now until the book launches. But I think Naval said this somewhere where your purpose is your axis of suffering. And so you have to choose that wisely. Hmm. And I like to frame it as conceptual survival where you— so when you identify with some form of an identity or goal or label, whatever it may be, your actions are gonna follow suit in order to survive that identity, right? Since we're, since we're like humans and we conceptualize things like the, the principles of survival don't only apply to our physical nature, but you can like note those patterns in the mental nature, right? The mental plane of life. And so if this is how I frame the 4-hour workday, right? Mm-hmm. Or just like working 4 hours is if I identify as a person who works 4 hours a day with an open mind, then my actions are gonna follow suit in order to only work 4 hours a day, right? Anything outside of that is going to be registered as a problem. And so that's the source of your suffering. But it allows you to, like, just that alone makes the problems reveal themselves. You can become aware of them, and then you can work in a best— in a— or your actions are just gonna follow suit almost automatically, kind of, to solve those problems and start to work 4 hours a day. And so it's like, if I identify as a writer, then my actions are gonna follow suit and I'll eventually become a writer, right? And so that's kind of what I mean. And so if you're identifying or labeling with these unconscious goals, let's say of society that they project on you, like the conventional example, there's nothing wrong with this, like, but go to school, get a job, retire at 65. Those are what most people's goals are when they are— Mm-hmm. A kid, they don't question them, they don't think about them, and then their actions follow suit, right? And so you have to take that, and that's the source of their suffering. But if you take that, frame it, figure out what you want in this life, identify with those goals loosely— it's like firm beliefs held loosely. I really like that saying.

Yeah.

And it actualizes, like, as long as you're consistent with it.

I— part of the number one— I had like 10 takeaways from last year. So last year I

love those takeaways, by the way.

Yeah, that was a lot of fun. I mean, I spent an entire week in Sedona off the grid, no phone, like, let's think about the year because next— so today's what, the 25th of February? 4 days from now will be my 1 year of leaving BlackRock. So 1 year, no full-time job, which definitely the best year of my life, but I made it a priority to get that time off the grid at the end of last year to reflect on it because I saw it as such a pivotal year in my life. But one of them was, me especially, but I think this goes for a lot of people, is the liquid takes the shape of its container. Yeah. Right? Where when you craft some kind of container, like you talked about, of I'm someone who works 4 hours a week, right? And you find out what those actions are that either vote for that type of— so I love the quote from James Clear of like, You become the type of person you wanna become by, I don't know the exact quote, but every action you take is a vote for that type of person. So overwhelm yourself with evidence is another thing Alex Hormozi says. It's like, figure out who you're trying to be and then gather a ton of evidence for that person. And I've started to do that with identity lists, right? So an example would be if you want to label yourself In something that you want to live up to, right? So you can go the other direction, like we talked about, of like being very dogmatic, or if— but you can spin it in a positive way of aspirational. I want to be someone who works 4 hours a day. What does that entail? I need to be focused. I need to be organized. I need to be whatever. And you can— what's hard about that kind of behavior change is it's not very easy to see tangible progress towards that. Right. It's hard to think in your head, like, what is that evidence? And so what I've started doing is anytime I want to start some kind of behavior or make some kind of change, I just make a list and pin it as a note in my phone and turn any action I take towards that. I just put it in there. Right. And so I'm gathering this big list of evidence over time that is supporting that thing. So if you were to do it with, I'm someone who works 4 hours a day, it could be, I plan my day the day before, right? And it's fun because it's now kind of hacked the dopamine of, I take those actions because I know I get to go write them in that identity list, right? Yeah, I love that. And it's like, it's a new source of gamification in a sense of like, I'm going to take those actions, that's going to reinforce my belief that I am that type of person, And then that flywheel starts to spin more and more. And I've been experimenting with that because I have to be careful with those labels or things I give myself because I will execute them. Yeah. And for a long period of time without looking up.

Yeah.

Right?

Same.

For better or worse, right?

Yeah.

It could be, if you do it correctly, it's a superpower, but obsessive personalities like we talked about, Applied to the wrong thing, not good. So, I have to be careful about what those labels are.

Yeah. I like the— I told you I need to do this, but the identity list is good. Like, I want to come back and frame it. So, would you summarize it as like you have a goal, you make a goal conscious, and then you're working to Change your behavior to actualize that goal. And with everything you do that will help you reach that, you write it down to reinforce that. And then it becomes that.

Yes, exactly.

It's like you start to do it so you can write it down. Yes. And it reinforces itself.

So an example, right? I have a big frame I'm trying to develop right now is a mindset of financial abundance, right? So I grew up— I was by far the poorest kid in my neighborhood, in my friend group, all of that, right? Very, you know, financial situation, not good. I've been able to break out of that through various things, working, whatever. But there are still behaviors and beliefs around money that I can tell were entrenched at a young age. Mm-hmm. And for a while I was like, what does it actually mean to develop some kind of abundant mindset around that? And now I just have a note of, I'm someone who has an abundant financial mindset. What does that mean? Well, I always have more than what I need and I operate that way, right? Instead of hoarding things that I have, I let money kind of flow as energy or something like that, right? Mm-hmm. So an example, would just be growing up, like, tipping a valet driver, right? I think learned from my dad or something like that of like, they didn't do that much. Like, don't worry about it, right? Yeah. And you think that that's kind of a normal thing, but that is a sign of scarcity, right? I can't be tipping that extra amount. Those are little things. But now, like, I tipped a valet driver $20 and I put it in that note, right? And then that's like stacking evidence against or for someone who operates that way, right? And, you know, I have that, I have some others that we could talk about, but that's really what it is, right? And as I'm going through that scenario of like, here he comes with the car, I feel that belief of like, don't tip valet drivers, right? They're just doing their job, something like that.

Yeah.

But then I know, okay, if I do this, I get to go write it down. And it's silly, but it works. And that starts to reinforce because over the last 6 months, I have like 100 things in that list that I can then read through whenever I— you do that for a long period of time. And what I've been trying to do is just gather one thing per week on those like 6 or 7 things that I'm trying to do. If you do that for a year, you have 50 pieces of evidence, right? Where— Mm-hmm. You just read into that note of like, am I that type of person? Well, I've taken all of these actions. Not every action has been perfect, but it becomes a source of truth that otherwise kind of stays out there of like, am I really making progress on this? So that's been, you know, I've started doing that this year and it's been really helpful.

Yeah, I'm gonna start doing that too. But this popped a question, um, that I have for you is like, how has your relationship with money evolved over from the time— I, I wouldn't say high school, but like, uh, from the job you had, possibly even before that, if you like had a different, like maybe a part-time job before that, into getting a full-time job, into starting the business and trying to balance both, and then like where it is now.

So A couple of ways of going about that one. I think starting back in high school. So, I have been financially independent from my parents since I was a sophomore in high school in terms of any kind of financial help from them, like getting any kind of money at all. Really sophomore, junior year because I started to tutor. On the side in high school, and I was getting paid ridiculous amounts of money, like at the time, $40 an hour as a tutoring math to— Damn. You find a way. Tutoring SAT math is like the most profitable thing because you're pricing off of value, right? Yeah. The parents are very—

Oh, you learned that early.

Right, I learned that very interesting because the parents were like, you're gonna save me a ton of money if you just get his score up. And I was just good at math, right? I don't remember my math score, but it was pretty high.

Oh.

Right?

Because there's like potential scholarships and—

Exactly, right? And so, any— there's some, some business alpha for anyone looking to start a tutoring business. Don't, don't tutor subjects, tutor to a test. But anyway, I was making a couple hundred bucks a week, and that was absurd at the time. I mean, you have $100 in high school, like I have everything I need for a long time. And that came from, I mean, 2009, I was 13, 14 years old, right? 14 years old, kind of started high school. My dad worked in real estate. That was a zero at the time. And my mom was raising me and my sister. So it was pretty much like, figure this out. Otherwise, you're just going to be kind of stuck in this. Yeah. So I tutored junior year, built up enough money where I was like, okay, I feel very confident in my ability to earn, right? Bought my first car for $800 cash underneath the highway. It was a 1995 Ford Explorer with like 150,000 miles. Wow. Bought it in cash, drove by. All my friends had brand new cars for their 16th birthday, nice trucks, nice this. I didn't get a car till my senior year of high school, second semester. Bought it with cash. Hmm. I say that because I have been building up that kind of sovereign, earn your own money, this is what needs to get done. And in college, same thing. I tutored. Pretty much the entire time. I worked an internship, and then that led to working at BlackRock. So, I still remember I started working— this is the only full-time job I've ever had. I was an intern there going into my junior year and my senior year of college, worked there for 3 years completely. Only job interview I'd ever had. Like, everyone else was running the gamut of like—

Oh, wow.

Tons of interview, like 20 interviews, banking, all that. And I never had to do that. But even when I started there, I was like, this is an absolute dream job. I'm gonna make $100 grand a year, like an absurd amount of money. Mm-hmm. And then I got into New York City and that like feeling of scarcity came rushing back because I'm making that much, but 50%, 55% of it goes to taxes. Right? I'm paying an absurd amount of rent. And I was like, here I am.

Damn, I didn't know that. Ripped all our New York people.

Oh, yeah. No, I mean, seriously, it's like 50— so the take-home rent or take-home money of, like, a first-year analyst in New York City is negative. If you factor in rent, you factor in taxes, you factor in any kind of social activity. And so I was like, this was a dream job for me. I thought, like, oh, hedge fund trader. This is amazing, right? And I started working there and immediately was like, this doesn't feel like right. I felt wealthier when I was just a tutor, like— Right. Where I could ramp things up. And that was extremely uncomfortable to get back in that situation. Like, oh, dream job. Oh wait, no, it's not. Like, you're stuck here. You are not even, saving any money. You're not earning. You're barely able to invest past what you spend on a monthly basis. And so, that was paired with the vivid image I have in my head of someone on my floor asking their boss to go to their son's Little League game and their boss saying no. And this guy was in his early 30s, mid-30s, something like that, where I just knew that I wasn't going to work a full-time job forever. But I didn't quit right away. I just started to kind of put other ideas out there of how could I get back to a way of earning my own income, right?

Yep.

Back to being a tutor in a sense, right? It was a side hustle. And so I just started to put my ideas out on the internet.

Yeah.

When Ship 30 started, which kind of skips a bunch of steps, but the original goal with Ship 30 was to make $10,000 in a year.

Yeah.

I was like, oh, if I can make 10 grand in a year, that's an extra grand, $1,000 a month. Like, that was so much more than I was saving or investing at the time. It's like, that's a dream. And I love saying that because people look at what it's— multiple 7 figures now of like, you had to have had that big ambition.

Yeah.

But no, it started much smaller. So, long-winded way of kind of coming all around this story of I sought the ability to have control over my income again, where inputs directly led to outputs.

Yes.

I was slaving away 14, 15-hour days, right? Learning as much as I could while I was on Wall Street, but there was literally no way I could have done 1/10 the effort. And that never sat well with me, of seeing other people who either worked way harder than everyone or way less and everyone made the same. That just, that wasn't it. So I sought that ability to earn my own. And here we are.

Yeah, that's incredible, man. And I think it, I don't know why this came to mind, but I've thought a lot about like why I've made the decisions I have throughout my life. 'Cause I grew up like in a religious household. Mm. I don't like, I don't think anybody in my family actually went to college. I was the first to go to a 4-year college. I didn't graduate, but first to go. And like, I was the first to kind of do everything differently. And for some reason this came up like, the example came up with like a TV show that would illustrate like a boss telling someone else like, no, you can't go see their kids. And like when I would watch things like that, it would hit hard. And it's like, like the signs are all around you. Why, like, why are you doing this? Why are you doing this? Like, what's the dissonance here where there's clearly a different path? There's clear that this is a problem that I don't think anybody should have to face. Mm-hmm. Maybe at times, but And I think it's starting to catch on and like the symbols in not necessarily mainstream media, but just media in general are being internalized by more people. And it's slowly leading to like where we are now, not only as individuals, but like more people being introduced to, or the, I would say the internet marketing space is shifting away from like what it was before where it's like all these crazy funnels. flexing screenshots, all this other stuff. And it's opening more people up to the possibility that they can do it too, 'cause I believe a lot of people can. But the stigmas are dying, which I really like, of like, oh, he's just a sleazy salesman or he's a sleazy internet marketer, when they're slowly becoming things of the past. There's still a few here and there. Yeah. But the majority of them are Like people are favoring and paying the authentic people that we used to like watching, not only through attention, but money. And more are becoming open to providing a product or service that is genuinely helpful to other people. 'Cause back then with YouTube, like the internet marketing space was just starting out as well. So they were creating clothing, like the clothing brands just out of like pure passion. Mm-hmm. But now if they learned from the internet marketing principles and were able to package something up that is more helpful. You see that all the time now in the fitness space. And I've bought a ton of programs that I've toyed with and have really enjoyed, and they've really helped my life. And everyone's giving out great information, giving great guides most of the time. But yeah.

You've said this a bunch where everyone has $100,000 worth of product ideas sitting in their head.

And Will says that too. Mm-hmm. It's a good angle.

It's very good. It's true because people that are dissatisfied in their job maybe don't think they have that ability.

Yeah.

Right? It's a very frame-breaking thing. Like I said, $10,000 in a year would've been crazy for me until that first $10,000 month. And then you're like, oh, wow, okay. Yeah. wasn't any more effort than I thought it would be, right? And I can see a path to scaling that. I don't know. I think people are coming around more and more to the fact that the internet has created the ability to take the ideas in your head, share them with other people, and be compensated for it.

Yeah.

And takes remarkably few people To accomplish that amount, right?

Yeah. I wanna hear, I wanna frame it like this. So I feel like a lot of beginners until they make this realization, like they don't want to create a product or they don't think they can create a product. Even if they have some form of expertise, they don't see how it fits in the market. But even then, like let's say an absolute beginner, Right. Someone who's just starting out, maybe they like productivity, but they haven't dove into it. They have no skills, no interest, nothing. Slight interest in productivity. It's like you don't have to— like while we or I talk about like consulting, coaching, freelancing, talking about like giving actual advice online, all these other things, it's like you don't really have to do that to start a personal brand, share what you're learning. Because even a brand, it's like they develop a product for a problem in the market. If you are interested in productivity and wanna dive into it more, you can create a product immediately. Like I can go on, you can do it digital, but I'll use like a physical example. It's like if I like productivity, I can buy a planner and I can make my own without any expertise. Mm-hmm. Right? And if it's helpful, that you can only know it's helpful if it helps you or if it helps the market. Like, that's how you gain the experience is by actually creating it and putting it out there rather than waiting until you have the experience to create the same exact planner and then put it out. So I'm curious, you couldn't, I feel like you have something to say.

No, no, no. You are spot on. And the important thing about what you just said is you have to pick something to then go build the skills that picking that thing does. So, for example, are you going to— say you make that planner. OK? You're going to learn so much about physical products, about marketing, about sales, all that, because you picked that one thing.

Yep.

Then are you going to make planners forever? No, more than likely not. But you've developed 50 skills that then you can switch the foundation. And I think that's where people— get stuck is I don't wanna niche down because then I have to stay with that forever. But if you just start talking about one specific thing for now, you don't have to talk about it forever, but you have to make that choice to go then build the skill of how do I write about that? How do I communicate those ideas? How do I learn effectively? So, I think it'd be interesting to share how I made my first couple dollars on the internet was—

That's what I was gonna ask.

Right. I went, 30 days of writing Twitter threads. So, how this all came about and it's how this all came together. I'd started writing January 2020. I was still working at BlackRock at the time, but I knew I needed to find new opportunities. So, I started writing a weekly newsletter. That was gonna be my thing. And 40 weeks in, I was writing a weekly newsletter and a weekly blog post on my blog that Basically, no one was reading.

Yep.

And except my mom and like people that I would forward it to.

Dickie's mom.

Yeah, exactly right. Yes, yes. She's been she's been reading every single thing. So shout out mom. So good. Shout out mom for who's probably listening to this. I'd been writing and felt super stuck, right? Because I was putting that on my own blog. No one was reading it. I was like, this is the whole cracked up like writing thing, and I was ready to give up entirely and just stick with working finance. But I started to say, okay, I'm gonna take one last shot at this, but I'm not gonna write on the blog. I'm gonna write on Twitter. And what am I gonna write about? Well, instead of writing these blog posts that like I'm not an expert in, I'm trying to like frame myself as an expert in this thing that I'm not, like writing about productivity, that whatever. Instead, I was just gonna go listen to 30 podcasts, which I was already doing on my own. Mm-hmm. Taking notes on all of them in that kind of learning consumption journey, but I just started tweeting Twitter threads on them for 30 days, right? So, I was taking something that I was already doing, listening to podcasts every day on a walk, taking notes on them, but they were living in the back of a Notion folder that one, I never looked at again because that was just— because I didn't have the public forcing function of putting those ideas in a concise way, I wasn't really internalizing them. So, right away, I was like, OK, I'm just going to put those out every day for a month. Hmm. What that did was started to attract people who were interested in the same things as me because I was putting them in a social environment, not on a blog. They could interact with them. I was then meeting people and I— people began to see me as a trusted curator and source of information. So, all of that All of those benefits, just taking something I was already doing and putting those ideas out there, right? 30 days into that, day 28, I put one out on Naval or on Balaji. This was like June 2020, July 2020. So pretty early on, like recognizing that Balaji had really cool ideas.

I don't even know who that is.

Balaji Srinivasan with like the network state. He talks about— What? Oh, well, we can talk about that later. But I basically listened to like 10 podcasts that he was on and distilled his worldview. I was ready to kind of quit this 30-day challenge. I tweeted it out, went to bed, woke up, and Naval had retweeted it, a bunch of people, and it had 4,000 or 5,000 likes. My newsletter went from like 100 subscribers over 40 weeks to 1,000 in the next 24 hours, right? I recognized the power of consistently putting things out there. Finished up the challenge, recognized the power of putting something out every single day, sharing what you're learning, all of that. Then people said, hey, you've done this for the last month. Do you have all these ideas anywhere? Like, have you put them in a product? Because I'd love to see all the things you've learned over the last month. I was like, no, but I can. And I did that for the rest of the weekend. Woke up Monday, put it for sale for $20 and made $500. Right? And that was incredible. That was the most— and I'm sure you feel this way too, like making that first dollar on the internet is by far the most addicting feeling ever. And you spend the next, I mean, 3 years is where we're at now, chasing that feeling of that first dollar again. And—

It's sad that it becomes normal.

Very sad. And I try to keep that perspective. Yeah. in a big way. But all of that came from just doing something I was already doing, putting those ideas out there. And then one person asking me, hey, is this like distilled anywhere? And I said, no. But would you pay for something like that? Yes. And there we go. And the number of things I learned from putting that for sale on Gumroad, how to launch it, how to fulfill it, all of that all started to spiral. And that eventually led to Ship 30 and all that.

Yeah. This is why this is like summarizing in a better way one of the YouTube videos I made on, I've changed the title like 5 times to try and boost it 'cause I know there's so much like in there, but it's called like Learn New Skills Fast something. But it's the same thing. It's like start then build or no, start then learn. So you have to actually build something, right? And this goes back, this is becoming more and more of a pattern of like behavior change where you're trying to survive a project, right? A project is like a structured goal in a sense where it has other things that bring clarity to it. But this is also why I recommend, we could go into like where you think personal branding or the creator economy is gonna be. Mm-hmm. But I genuinely think that everyone that is interested in this should have one. They should have a personal brand of sorts. No matter if it's for increasing career opportunities, if they're not like interested in business just yet, because employers are hiring from the value that you provide. But dude, building a personal brand, I had learned this stuff previously, but when I was building mine, it was incredible how many skills that I had to have to make that work and how it could introduce me to all of these skills. And the skill stacks, the skill stack that I need to develop, right? Because it's like, I need graphic design for my banner and my profile picture. I need some form of like visual composition knowledge. I need to understand what creates a compelling bio, which kind of revolves around top of funnel persuasion. Mm-hmm. I have to understand like how to write content, short, medium, long, like what the purpose of what, What's the distinction between like content and marketing in terms of like a sales page writing or like an email? Like how does that all flow? How do I take that idea and design it in a way that goes on Instagram? How do I actually build a product? Or like then you branch into, okay, I need to monetize this, build a product, learn the skills associated with that. And it's like the skills, like I feel like people, Or like, what skills do I learn? It's like you need the goal or project first. Yes. And then they all reveal themselves. And if you aren't getting results, then it's like, okay, what's missing here? Because that's another thing that I could talk on and on about is persistence and iteration where it's like, if you aren't seeing results and you're about to quit because, or like the most tragic thing is when they're like, this doesn't work, this is a scam, whatever. And it's like, dude, you're just, you're not paying attention. You're not at least trying to find what the gap is and realizing that you aren't skilled enough to make this work. That's another thing is you can think that you're very skilled. You can attach to that label in a sense where it's like, oh, I have a— I went to—

The market's wrong.

I went— yeah, the market's wrong. I went to grad school to get my PhD in writing. This is shipped 20 for 20. Why is nobody buying it? And it's the same thing where it's like you can I feel like credentials can hurt you a lot in this space, and especially since it's evolving.

My framework for this is just-in-time versus just-in-case learning, where what you just said of creating a product, the number of skills that go into that, and not even creating a product, but just creating some kind of internet presence, Too many people are like, oh, I need to go read these 10 books before I start doing anything. Yeah. But you have to have a lens to apply what you're learning. If you do not have that lens, you are not going to learn anything. So, way too many people spend time learning just in time or just in case, right? My framework for this is, have you ever heard this? I've written about this story, but of 2 men learning to fish.

I think I have. I don't remember details.

So 2 men starting to learn to fish, and one of them goes, great, it's time to learn to fish. I'm gonna go grab every book on fishing there is. I'm gonna go get a custom fiber specced-out rod. I'm gonna go buy this brand new boat. I'm gonna get all this stuff ready. I'm gonna spend 6 months preparing to fish. And he does that, right? Whatever. The other fisherman goes, time to learn to fish. He grabs a stick, he grabs some rope or line, attaches a hot dog to it, goes down to the lake and throws it in. Catches nothing on day 1. And then day 2, he's like, okay, I have to learn from this. Why didn't I catch anything today? Well, I was probably in a bad spot. Let's go try this spot. I go there. Oh, I got a nibble, but now my rod broke. That means I need a better rod. Okay, went and got that. Every single day he iterates while the other person is doing all this high-level, oh, I can't. Yeah. It's procrastination disguised as productivity. By the time the other fisherman gets ready, finally feels ready to fish, gets on his boat, he gets down to the lake and every single fish is gone. The first fisherman has sucked it dry. He's now running a fishing business that helps other people start learning to fish. He's running a restaurant. He's got all— all because he just got started.

Yeah.

And I love that because anytime I want to start something new, in my head I go, grab a shitty rod and start fishing, rather than go try to have this perfect plan, because that plan never works out and you don't understand what you need to execute that plan. And that has stuck with me for so long and prevented me from launching a product, but saying, nope, I need to read these 10 books before I do it. I have to feel ready. You're never going to feel ready. And that's been very helpful for me.

Yeah. But when I write my newsletters, I have to reframe it so much because it belongs in every single one. But like whenever I enter some form of step-by-step advice, The first advice is always set a goal or a different frame project, whatever it may be. And it's because I like to think of it's, again, another principle where it's like you can start to perceive your life from your future self, which is a goal in itself, right? That's a good lens to go about life. Because let's say my future self, um, or my ideal self, you could call it, is fit, right? And let's say right now I'm not fit. And then the situation comes up where I'm tempted to go to a buffet and eat a bunch of shit, right? And if I didn't have that lens to view the situation from and how it could impact my future, then I may make the bad decision. Or like I wouldn't be able to learn from it. I wouldn't register it as a bad decision, right? Mm-hmm. Or a mistake. And you're supposed to make mistakes, so I'm not saying like, yeah. But it's the same thing with learning because that's such a huge lesson to learn where it's like, I'm building this thing and now I'll read a book on it because I'll pick up those, like, That's how you register what's gonna help survive that project, right? When you are like, okay, I'm trying to get fit and I'm scrolling on Twitter and now it's no longer mindless consumption simply because I have a goal. Mm-hmm. And so I'm gonna pick something up, even if it's not related to fitness. I can see a tip, like a mindset tip, and I'm like, oh, that, that's good. That applies to my goal. I'm gonna try that out, implement it. But if you don't have the goal to view that from, That's just another tweet that's going to scroll on by, right? So you see life as a whole. You notice things. You pay attention to life in a completely different way when you are working towards things.

And that is how I frame— someone asked me the other day, what do you write about? And to me, it's always writing about what I'm learning at the time. For a year, that was learning to write because I hated it in school. I recognized the power of it. So I spent basically an entire year learning that skill and sharing. And now I feel very strongly about it. Now, as I learn new things, and we can talk about some of the projects we have planned over the next like 3 to 5 years, I'm simply on a search for what are the projects I could take on such that the byproduct of starting that thing is tons of new skills that I don't currently have. Yeah. And that is at the moment not quite there yet, but the Shipyard. And for you, the Mastery facility, right? So you think about something like that of an in-person gym cafe. I just smile thinking about it because it's like everything I've wanted for so long to be able to have. And what goes into learning something like that? So real estate, I have no clue how to do any of that right now, right? Legal stuff of operating a gym, operating a reception area, all of that publicly documenting that journey on YouTube. What would that look like? That's a whole new skill. And so as I look at any time I'm starting a new project, I say, is that going to guarantee that I learn a bunch of new things? If it's not, I don't take it on. Starting to write on the internet was a forcing function for me to learn all those basic marketing, sales, everything, right? Now, the new thing is I need to learn 10 other things. This sounds like the perfect thing that I could spend 3 to 5 years on.

Yep. That's how it— That's how it was with like, I'm building the software right now as well. Mm-hmm. Where it's like, I know a bit of code. Like, I definitely couldn't do it by myself. Mm-hmm. No way at all. But at the same time, it's like the challenge is what makes it fun. And I've like, through what we've done, we've proven to ourselves that we can like really make anything work. Like, it's, it's, it's, not fear anymore, it's just like challenge. Like, what's the next challenge I'm gonna take? But with the software, it's like, I'm big on the one-person business and I'm kind of labeled as that, right? So there's things which are challenging my beliefs there where it's like, okay, I'm gonna have to hire a team. I'm gonna have to manage that team, which I don't know if I'll like or not, but I won't know if I like it or not if I don't do it.

Yep.

Right? Because that's the other thing is I can, I'm personally at the point where it's like, happy to— like, it's just fun to build stuff. Like, I'll put money into this knowing well that I don't, I don't have any plans to like get rid of it. Mm-hmm. But one day if I get rid of it because I simply like— it doesn't belong in my life or it's like causing too much of that suffering, I'm gonna get rid of it and I'm just gonna let— like, I'm gonna lose a lot. But that's, that's what you pay to learn in a sense. And then your life gets better because of that, because you're actually building And allowing problems to come into your life so that you know what you don't want and how you can move forward in a different direction.

One of my core values, things I want to always be spending my time doing, is progression. Progressing in something. And anytime I feel that I'm not progressing, it means I need something new to take on.

Or peace. The balance. Peace and progress. That's my motto. lately is like, like progress feels fucking amazing. Mm-hmm. Like when you're making it, a lot of it. But then it can get to the extreme where you don't have that piece to balance it out, where you didn't go to Sedona for a week to do whatever. You don't have these habits in your day, like me going on a walk, right? Where it's the middle way. I'm, I'm— I want to write a piece on this where it's like the spiritual warrior or the spiritual materialist where like I personally don't see like getting rich, buying fancy cars, having a lot of money, that I don't see that as the picture of absolute evil that some people paint it as, right? That's like a personal thing. And so if it's not balanced, In the sense, or you're just like pursuing it to pursue it for status, then why? But really, we're pursuing it now because, or I'm pursuing like bigger and bigger things now because it's taught me so much. Like it's led to me refining my lifestyle because I've gained so much experience doing that that I'm able to come in and actually create some form of a life. Like it's not absolute, it's not absolute progress. like the, the businessman, you know, the typical picture of like a workaholic. Mm-hmm. So it's not absolute progress like a workaholic, but it's not absolute peace like a monk. Mm-hmm. And I feel like those 2 polar ends are collapsing as we like move forward because there's so much information coming up that we're able to synthesize it and understand life from this balanced

Perspective. So many things there. It's finding that balance through extremes is how I've thought about it, where I try to avoid operating in the middle of peace and progress because that's where all the horrible results come from. All the negative results come from I'm going to try to make a little bit of progress, but I have a lot of peace. Like, work-life balance never made sense to me.

Right.

I always think of it of polarity.

Yes.

I want to be heads down, absolutely cranking out 15-hour days for long periods of time, or I want to be completely off the grid with my phone on airplane mode.

Yep.

And that's how I achieve that middle ground. And I do that with a lot of things of any kind of intensity. Bring it. or totally shut it off.

Yep.

And I think you can do that on a macro level, on a year, right? I work very hard for 12 weeks and then I take a week off. I think you can do that on a micro level of 50 minutes of work, 10 minutes of break, something like that. And I think you could, unlike the, whatever the middle of macro and micro is, but like, On a daily basis, I have periods of intense work and then periods of completely— like, that applies to every timescale, right? Where the opposite would be, I spend most of my day kind of doing nothing. I spend most of my week kind of in that middle. I spend most of the year kind of in the middle.

Right.

And then you look up 5 years later and you're in the same spot.

Yeah. I think this adds the much-needed, I don't know if this is what he meant, but I think this adds the much-needed nuance behind, I actually don't know if anyone said this, but it's like everything in moderation, even moderation. Like the keyword there is even moderation, meaning you aren't in the middle. You're moderating how much time you expose yourself to each extreme. Mm-hmm. and letting that like teach you the lessons of life where it's like you go through, you're gonna go through seasons. I like to think of it as like chapters in a book, right? Mm-hmm. And each chapter has a purpose. Mm-hmm. Or a purpose that you're pursuing, right? And so when you achieve some form of a purpose, you're going to potentially, like, unless you, It really depends on life situation. But a lot of the time you're going to like get launched into this phase of feeling lost or like you don't know what's next. You don't see the light at the end of the tunnel 'cause it's too early in the chapter. Mm-hmm. Right? And so you kind of have to stay mindful, test goals, learn from certain lenses, move forward. And then to me, a purpose like that clarity is built over time just by going about life consciously, like noting those little things, that can apply to a better future. And then like a puzzle, right? It's, you start piecing it together, it starts taking shape, and then finally you put in one piece and you see like this part of an image and you're like, oh, okay, I need to move further in that direction. And then this side starts to take shape. And then you finally put that last piece in the puzzle and it's like, we're going all in on this. Like I'm obsessed for the next 6 months. Yeah. Like I'm building this out. No matter what, and nothing is going to get in my fucking way.

So what is that for you right now? Because I think you spent that time off the grid, right? You came back, realized that you wanted to go harder on the one-person business, creator economy, creating your own ideas, shaping however you would define that right now. And it worked, right? You came back with that clarity, blew up on YouTube, blew up on Instagram, honed in Twitter, right? You could see all those pieces start to come together.

Yeah.

As that, I don't know if you're reaching the end of that season or just the beginning, right? That's where my head's at for you is, Is this the beginning of going even harder in this direction, or how are you thinking about that right now?

It's slowing down for sure. Because if we view like from a very, like, not on like a week-to-week lens, because there's occasional lows, like that's the other thing is like there will be one day where you're like, don't really feel like doing anything today. I'll try and force some stuff out, but just wait it out. Mm-hmm. But that intensity really started in Texas when I was like, okay, I'm still dabbling in fitness here and there, but I'm not really enjoying this. Like, I would have to see myself like turning this into my entire brand if I wanted to produce the value necessary that I know I have to actually make an impact in that space. But I also have this unique frame of the one-person business that I can take along the way. And so that's when like Digital Economics was born. 2-Hour Writer was broken off of that. And then after that, that gave me like throughout the entire, that entire time that started giving me more clarity for the closing of my book. And so I'd written that previously, the first draft. And then when I had that clarity, I went back to the book and I And I reread a lot of it and I'm like, this is dog shit. Like, I can't believe I thought this was good writing 2 years ago when I started it. And then I started re-outlining it, refilling it out. And then that clarity started building again with the book. And then in, I want to say it was like 30 days, I wrote the first draft. Like it was done, 230 pages. And now I'm going through it with the editor. And so that's kind of like on the comedown. Mm-hmm. software is kind of like on the come up. Mm-hmm. 'Cause I haven't had to do much with it right now 'cause the developers are still building, but I'm slowly piecing together the puzzle pieces of like a marketing strategy, like who I'm gonna reach out to or like what kind of content I'm gonna do, like how am I gonna position it and all of that fun stuff. But right now, like the book is being edited, it's coming a bit slower. It's less out of my direct control right now. And so that's slowing down. And I'm in this phase of like, I have these projects that I'm sustaining. Life is going good. We're kind of in this middle phase right now. But I know that like a very intense season for the software or book promotion is coming very soon. And I'm just like waiting. Hmm. I don't know what it is that's gonna cause that click, but I know it's gonna happen at some point. And we're gonna build. It's gonna be great. I'm excited.

And you're gonna learn so much on the book and software side. It goes back to you're gonna have a completely new lens.

Yes. Well, the book has shaped like my philosophy on a lot of things. Like, uh, like I've created my own lens to— like I've created my own holistic lens to view life and business from. Hmm. And it's worked pretty well so far. And it has helped me like go back and reframe the book. And so that's kind of like what I want to give other people is like a lens or how to create your own lens, right? It's less of a— it's both, here's my lens, but I tried to create this in such a malleable way as possible that you can like fit it to your own situation and fill in the missing pieces through experience.

And the book's called The Art of Focus.

The Art of Focus. But it's, it's not— we're gonna see how it does. Where focus means so much more to me. Focus to me is like, it's the lens, right? It's less about like, okay, I'm gonna sit down and do deep work. It's more so, where is my focus at any given point in life? Like right now, where is it? What am I noticing? Like even building the skills. It's like you focus on a bigger goal, and by doing that and holding that in the back of your mind, it kind of directs your focus to finding the things that will survive that goal. So to me, focus is life, 'cause that's what it is. Like, focus is conscious attention, and we're in the age of attention or the age of however you wanna frame it. Mm-hmm. But attention is foundational. And so focusing that, I'm trying to bring like the unique Business, spirituality, life, health, tie everything in. So, it'll be unique. I feel like people that pick it up, The Art of Focus, hmm, this is gonna be some deep work stuff. No way. You're in for a surprise.

So, it's not focus in, it's attention. It's direction in a sense. The art of figuring out where you are honing your limited resources.

Yes.

In a way.

Yes.

But more, but higher level, less tactical.

It should be called like the art of life, but focus is more, I feel like it's a better lens to position it towards my audience.

Okay.

Hmm. And to not speak in a very woo-woo language. Because that's what I've, like, I really like the woo-woo stuff, but I've noticed obvious gaps. Where it turns people off. And so I want to bring the same lessons from like the lens that I'm bringing it from and kind of like inject it into people's minds via something enticing like business.

Hmm. And are you going to— how's that going to change both on the software side and the book while you're creating Twitter, YouTube, Instagram? How do you think about that? Is that gonna change your content strategy?

No, it'll give— well, the software will because I'll start incorporating more creativity.

Give a TL;DR on the software just so anyone who's unfamiliar.

Software is like how to take an idea, make it your own through like a system that we've been developing. So, take an idea that you like, make it your own, have some form of a second brain, like an intellectual database.

Right.

And then be able to connect and reference those ideas when it comes time to start a project. So whether that be sales pages, newsletters, articles, tweets, book chapters, all of that fun stuff. So it's like, That gives it away.

So it's a note-taking system at the highest level, but directed at a lens of creating from those rather than just gathering materials.

It's like, yeah, it's like synthesis. So like the synth software. That's not what it's called. And I don't wanna give too much away for the name because it'll, people could hop on that.

Yeah, I think.

And we wanna make sure we have everything in place before we start giving out too much. But yeah, in terms of, so that'll like start to direct me more towards that style of content sometimes.

Right.

Work it in. But the book, my purpose for writing that was, or at least like what makes me want to write it is I would look at the comments like in the comment section and not like bad ones, but any of them. And I just think like they're not understanding what I'm saying. Like this is getting good engagement. But they're on like a completely different, like they have no idea what I'm trying to get across here. Like I need the book. Or when people ask questions and, or like questions to help with their problems. And I'm like, this isn't even a business problem. Like I'm gonna have to approach this from a very different lens. They need the book. Like I just kept getting evidence that like I need to give people the lens to view the content from so that it is more impactful. And so it's like, and of course it's a play to help with like spreading the ideas and building the brand name in a sense. But without, like, I'm not trying to make it actionable or even lead into courses or anything. Mm-hmm. But I want it to be like, when you think of habits, you think of James Clear, right? And if you've read Atomic Habits, you read his tweets or any of his content, From a much better lens. And because of that, he gets so much more engagement. Hmm. In a sense, this is my way of creating a modality for myself to be able to write whatever I want, no matter how philosophical it is. Like, this is my way of being able to write what I want to write and have it be understood. When if it was just a standalone tweet with no depth behind it, it would do maybe okay. Some people would get it, but I want more people to get it because it's the shit that's like impacted my life the most.

You made this point at dinner on Thursday of your impact is less about someone engaging with your content, but more how much You— and you should definitely write about this, by the way— when you plant an idea in someone's head and that goes on to influence a lot of their decisions, it's almost like you are buying stock in a sense, or a venture capitalist, like some kind of investment. Mental real estate. Yeah, because when they go on to do a bunch of awesome things with that idea, you are compounding your— their— what's the right word? Like, their gratitude to you gets more and more valuable, right?

Yeah.

It's kind of like with Ship 30. We're seeing people now who are building hundreds of thousands of followers, making hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Yeah.

That equity has been compounding, and now they all are looking back and saying, how did I get my start? It was with Ship 30, right? How did I come up with these 5 business ideas and kind of change the way I think? The Art of Focus, right? Yeah. This single idea then plants seeds in people's heads that go and grow. And that, you said that, and I went home and thought about that a lot because that is the true, the reason James Clear is seeing more and more success is because he planted those ideas in people's heads, that has led to such immense change in their life where their affinity— that's the right word— affinity to him has compounded because of that, because of the success that they've seen via his ideas. They feel like they owe him even more. Yeah. And that's a really cool way of thinking about creating and spreading your ideas in the first place is how can I put something in someone's head that they're going to be able to use and reference and act on and see success with, such that it compounds favorably for them and for me.

Yep. No, I see this as a— this is how I talk about it in the book. I really like the, uh, the angle of conceptual survival or mental survival, like surviving on that plane, because There's so many different patterns you can notice where it's like in, like in our ancestors per se, when they'd pass by like a bare bush over and over again, there was nothing of importance. There's no dopamine, like, oh, novelty. It doesn't aid in their survival, whatever it may be. And we're talking physical survival here. And so one day when it grows new berries, and they're hungry, novelty, dopamine, they're gonna register that because it's going to help them survive, right? And so if we take that to the conceptual level and we're trying to survive a project or goal that we're working on, then we're going to notice the novel things in everyday life that help us achieve that goal. Hmm. And so, with mental survival, there are multiple things that come into play. And that is reproduction. Like if you want to frame it that way, I like framing it this way 'cause it's fun. But like you're reproducing ideas, concepts, and you're spreading it. You're kind of like creating children in a sense. Yeah. Well, not really, but you're like, that's how you form like a community or a family or like that tight-knit bond is by spreading those ideas. And if you want to take this from the spiritual lens, raising the collective consciousness by doing that, like from A New Earth by Eckhart Tolle, that was like his big point is like you have to— I like to frame it as levels of mind because consciousness, again, like people can get turned off to woo-woo stuff. Not that consciousness is woo-woo, but I like to frame it as levels of mind. So you are educating and entertaining and inspiring people as a creator and reproducing your ideas on the spiritual or mental plane to help raise that collective level of mind so that we can solve better problems, right? Because a lot of people get stuck in these low-level problems. They don't have the— they don't have the income, they don't have the body, they don't have whatever. And this whole self-improvement space and creator economy is getting to the point where more and more people have solved those base problems in their life. They've solved their biological problems to the point where eventually, I think, automation, AI, tech— and I know Naval has said something similar to this at some point— but they're going to take over a lot of the groundwork, like a lot of the productive mechanical robotic-ish style work that is against human nature. And then once you solve your own problems, you Open up that mental space to start solving creative problems, to start entertaining yourself, or not entertaining yourself, but you start to survive on that mental plane. And it becomes a lot more rewarding and fulfilling that way because one, your mind is expanded to the point where you don't really get trapped in these little like petty thought bubbles or pockets of the internet anymore, per se. Mm-hmm. Occasionally, maybe you might, But that's kind of on a very high level where I see things going eventually. And I really do think like that's why I push the one-person business model a lot right now is because it kind of— I like how you— I like the term forcing function. I just registered what that actually means. But like the one-person business model is a forcing function for improving every area of your life. And this is why I think the creator economy can't get too saturated is because people evolve. It's like if I wanna start as a web designer, but then I learn enough where it's like I can create something better, then I desaturate the web design market and someone else can take my place. And then everyone evolves in their own unique way. Mm-hmm. And then they get to a point where it's like, I don't really even need this anymore. I wanna go and pursue building this business because I have the resources to do so. Like, you go and look at, I'd say, 50% of the YouTubers with over a million followers, half of them don't even post. Like, they stop because they've reached the point— Hamza, Hamza just stopped, like, at least completely, or they're just very inconsistent with posting. So once they reach a certain point, once they've actualized that purpose or whatever they were trying to achieve, and they stop, they open up room for the rest of the people. So it's individuals and communities evolving through the internet, through the mental plane, right? That the internet is kind of how minds interact now.

Education is never going anywhere.

Nope.

And that to me is the foundation of creator economy, is you are figuring out ways to do things and sharing it with other people. Now, you make an interesting point that I want to pull on a little bit of AI, tech, automation, solving a lot of these problems, allowing you to then work on higher-level things.

Yes.

There's another side of that though, where if you are not putting yourself in a place to leverage those, you are not going to solve those problems. So it's— Yeah. Maybe they take care of— where I'm— where I just— I have the picture of WALL-E from the movie where they, like, the people are 500 pounds and they're sitting there and it's like every dopamine receptor is hooked up to whatever you need because every other problem is solved. And it's like, all I want to do now is That, right?

I think it's gonna either widen the gap or close the gap.

Oh, I think it— everything— You

think it's gonna widen the gap?

I mean, technology is an accelerant of polarity, in my opinion, where the people who use it— look at what we're doing right now. This podcast is gonna reach thousands of people, maybe more, like, who knows? And that is a benefit because our ideas are able to spread that way. Automation, tech, all of that, you can arm yourself with it, and it's all going to turn into a power law where the people who use it effectively are going to continue to capture more and more and more and more value. You're seeing that with wealth in general right now. Yeah. Like, the highest leveraged individuals in the world are Jeff Bezos, Elon Musk. Why? Because they've used technology and automation and labor and everything in the right ways to ascend to the highest levels of leverage possible. Mm-hmm. That is only going— like, we look at now these trillion-dollar companies versus how, like, all the smallest, like, relative how much more valuable they are than the smallest. That is only going to get wider. The most powerful individuals are only going to get more relatively powerful than the least powerful, like the bottom of the spectrum. And that's all technology's going to do. So that to me is terrifying. It is. Because if you don't see that happening and 5 years pass by and you're still not figuring out a way to use these technologies it's game over.

Yeah.

You're eating crickets, you know, which is scary.

And this is what, like, again, this is why I don't think that the space can be saturated. Like, I think there needs to be more people because, like, awareness of this is the first step. Like, some people have no fucking clue what's coming. Like, we're in a decent position because we started earlier, but the only way people are going to start is if they have The awareness of it and people are actually talking about this stuff, right? Like some people, people that listen to this and actually decide to start from listening to this, they're in a 100 times better place than someone who wasn't, didn't even know this podcast existed.

100 times ahead of anyone that doesn't. Just listening to this puts you in a certain level of awareness of these tech, because otherwise you're just kind of an NPC. This goes back to—

Not absolutely, but in terms of like—

No, yeah, yeah.

In that domain of life.

Playing and understanding and staying, that's why I'm extremely grateful for getting on Twitter 2 and a half years ago.

Yeah.

Because I was immediately exposed to those ideas that completely reshaped what the trajectory I was on, where you work that job, You slowly increase your income. Because you slowly increase it, you slowly inflate your lifestyle. So you're always stuck, right? You make more, but you accumulated more recurring costs because of that. And then boom, you're 35, you're 40, you're, you're done. You're stuck. Golden handcuffs.

Yep.

Right? So I'm extremely grateful for the people who I started following and learning those ideas. And it's also important to preface that it's by no means too late to start doing any of this.

Oh, no way.

Like, not even close.

Yeah. And, and as I said, it's like you have to start in order to learn the skills. Like, listening to this isn't— frankly, it's not going to do much aside from prime you to start. That's it. Like, it's up to you to start and then figure out the rest. as you go and learn from the people that you resonate most with. Like, that's what I like about— that's what I fucking love about all of this is kind of individuals becoming their own public schools or building like brands that are somewhat public schools that people can attend, is that they all have different lenses from which they teach and they all attract people according to those lenses. Dude, Every single time in digital economics, the, like my bigger course, I have everyone do the Myers-Briggs personality test. And I've heard a few times that it's inaccurate, but this is still like super interesting to me is that I have all of them take the Myers-Briggs personality test and treat it as their customer avatar to like write, start writing to. Um, but it's insane how many are so similar to me. Hmm. Where it's like, I'm supposedly INFJ, and then when people join, they're like, oh, what are you? And I would say 50% plus are that. Like, you attract who you are, and that's who you can help best. That's why I'm so big on like, you are the niche, is if you just help yourself, help your past self, self, like write through your problems right now, give yourself advice, like kind of use social media as like a note-taking software, like where you're putting these ideas that you're sharing, you attract people that are like you, especially if you share your interests more. And then they're going to resonate with your style of teaching much, much more than some general curriculum or someone else's school. And so it creates its own filter where everyone, I mean, buyers buy again and they're all gonna buy different courses over time, but you're eventually going to like gravitate into your own little pocket or community of people. And then you're gonna be able to become that community. The way I like to distinguish it is like dominator hierarchies versus actualization hierarchies, where dominator hierarchies are like, A classic one is like a pyramid scheme or like a— like alpha ape that gets all of the like female apes and like his choice of food and everything to himself, or like a business structure, like a corporate job structure where like there's less people at the top, more people at the bottom, and just by sheer probability, you're not going to be able to— most people, 99% of people aren't going to be able to get to the top of that ladder. Mm-hmm. But in this creator economy, like, it evolves. That's the entire point behind the actualization hierarchy is that it transcends, includes, and it keeps evolving, right? And so anyone can get to the top. I can't really prove this, but like, it's a much more— I don't even know the word for it. It's a Better way. Like, we're slowly finding these different solutions for people to be able to make a living doing what they enjoy with technology. Like, that's— I firmly believe that, like, technology, whether it's unconscious or not, is, like, solving the base human problems that we've been experiencing so long. Mm-hmm. Yeah, and it's just slowly moving more towards that.

Tactically, we talk about this in Ship 30 as the 2-year test, where there's probably a good chunk of people listening to this right now, like, this all sounds great, but what the heck do I start talking about? And the immediate framework we teach in the first week is you are going to write to yourself 2 years ago. Mm-hmm. So what does that mean? Inside your head right now, are hundreds of thousands of ideas and frameworks and lessons and things that just over the last 2 years you've developed. Because they're part of your life now and you've internalized them, you think they are obvious to other people.

Yeah.

Unlocking those and getting comfortable realizing that you are an expert in a lot of things is the gateway drug to creating on the internet. Yeah. It's, well, Wow, I actually do have things to share. And so we force them to come up with a list of 20 things, skills you've built, hobbies you've started, life transitions you've made, mistakes you've made, jobs you started, jobs you quit, things you've learned. And that's looking backwards. And you can write about all of those things to the person you were 2 years ago who would do anything to have that information. And if you do a good job distilling that, the internet guarantees there are millions of people on that exact same journey as you. Yep. And there are only going to be more and more of them exposed to those ideas over time. It's only going to grow.

Yeah.

Also, you can look forward 2 years and say, maybe I don't necessarily— I'm a complete beginner. I'm 18 years old. I don't have that much First off, you do, because just how you got to here means you have something interesting to share. But you can look ahead, and this is really the path we've taken at the very beginning. Look at what you want to learn over the next 2 years.

Yeah.

Marketing, sales, branding, health and fitness, all of those, and go curate the experts of those things.

Yeah.

And that is the evolution of Right? There are now people who are curating our ideas. Yeah. Because they are saying, I'm looking up to these guys. I want to learn from them. Let me go dive into their worldview, curate it. They're going to better understand it. They're going to share it to the people behind them. And because— and this is interesting to see come full circle— when you do that curation, you then have a new foundation of ideas that you can put your own spin on. Yeah. Your own personal expertise, right? That's what keeps compounding. And I like to share that because it can— all this can sound good, but then what do I actually do to get started? So for anyone watching or listening, make that list of things that you've learned, mistakes, lessons, failures, transitions, or— and you can do both— look forward. What are all the That's your raw material to then go share. And the more people that do that, the more it compounds because then new people come in and they learn from those and you just keep ascending and ascending. And that's why your point on it never getting saturated is so important because there's always going to be evolution of everyone and new people coming in and new people to learn and new nuances to share.

Yeah. And that's the— I think that's the distinction here is that it's, The, how would we label it? Like the, okay, creator economy, I would label it as the creator economy because being a creator implies growth. But like, I like the word creator because it does that. But let's say influencer, that's like, that could be static. Like the influencer economy can definitely get saturated. Creator economy assumes that you're consistently trying to make progress in life. Mm-hmm. Right? As on an individual level and the community that you are bringing up with you, both are evolving. The other thing is that like people, I see this take a few times online where it's like, especially on Twitter, Twitter's very raw and has like those unique little Twitter-specific things where it's like, oh, when people are at 1,000 followers, they can talk about whatever they want. And blah, blah, blah. And then when it's like you get to like 100,000 followers and they start doing all these platitudes and it's like, it's kind of like it holds meaning, right? To me, I slowly have shifted over time into like much more pithy, big picture stuff because all the other stuff is documented. Mm-hmm. And then that holds a lot more meaning to me now. And I truly feel like it's a bit more impactful for just like keeping people, like nudging people to stay on the path. And so it's interesting how the content evolves with it too. And like what you talk about, how you talk about it, why you talk about specific things over others. And of course it's not absolute. Like I give out actionable stuff all the time. Mm-hmm. It's just like, I, me personally, I prefer the just high-level information that reminds me of good lessons to, use as, like, a part of the lens for me to go about life.

You're still growing when you're sharing that information. I think that's the point is—

Yeah.

At the very beginning, you know, that— and that's what's important about it is as you were sharing those things in the very beginning, it was you making sense of that. Once you have made sense of those low-level things, you only can ascend to the high-level things.

Right.

You know, or you pick a different angle, right? Of I'm gonna go start this in-person mastery facility that has a cafe, grass-fed steak bowls, things like that. And now I'm gonna share those ideas. And that would be, you'd go back down to low level of what is it? What is the actionable stuff, right? Yeah. And that's what's so fun to me is it's all I wanna do what I'm creating on the internet is learn new things, document it, and continue to grow. Picking that thing to go and learn is the fun part.

Yeah.

Because you can choose anything. You could not take the path of going and starting an in-person facility or starting a software and just purely go, I want to completely understand my own philosophical mind, and that's my new public experimentation.

Yeah, I like the shape this is taking because it's like, it's figuring it out at scale, but it's really just making sense. Like sense-making. Sense-making as like a very broad topic is very fun to dive into. Like podcasts on people that just talk about sense-making from like a philosophical perspective, super interesting. But like this, it sounds like You're just making sense of your path in life in public, and the things that you want to share. Like if I'm I'm in my life, I'm going to be interested in maybe like ten things with dedication, and then my entire job is to become like those are the crevices reality of reality that I am dedicated to synthesizing, making sense of, and creating with. Right? So my creations. Or the value that I'm putting out in the world or my business. Like if you label business as like the way you distribute value to the world, that's what you're doing is you're just packaging up and making sense of the very unique. That's another thing that decreases the saturation is that your combination of interests that you kind of trek through and like leave your own path in over time online, Or even in a physical location, anywhere, is like what you're doing from a very big picture is you're just learning, packaging up, distilling. Like, you are the perspective vessel that things are like passing through.

And the byproduct of that, you're going to attract people who are on the same path as you, which is the whole goal of— that's why we're sitting here is because very clearly When I came across your profile, it was, I know exactly the type of thing this person's interested in. Very similar to me.

Even if it's not like directly, like it's weird how you have that sense where it's like, I like this guy.

And then the second one is you learn it faster.

Yep.

If you are doing that distillation, when you have the lens of, I am going to be sharing this information with other people, it goes back to my 30 days of podcasts where I learned, Still to this day, some of those frameworks I learned during those 30 days sit top of mind for me because I took an extra amount of time to share them in a way that other people would find valuable.

Yeah.

And that's what excites me. When I go start the shipyard and I sign the lease on whatever that facility is and I make those YouTube videos, I want to share that process because it's going to attract people who want to eventually do that too. I'm going to learn it. If I have to share and write up a video on all of the real estate tax and legal implications,

Yeah.

I'm going to very well understand that. And that's going to be fun. And there's going to be people who reach out. And it all comes full circle with— I put those ideas out there. I'm going to better understand them. The people who could help me in the next step are going to say, hey, you're probably going to run into this problem next. Yeah. At the highest level, it's start sharing the things you're doing and learning.

Yep.

And you're going to learn them. People are going to help you. And that's what you go back to our very— the very beginning of our entire journey is the same thing. It was, let's go figure this thing out. But rather than pontificate about it—

What's that word mean?

Think.

Oh.

Yeah, pontificate. I don't even know if that's a real word. But let's go get in the trenches and actually learn it and share it.

Hell yeah. What's next on the menu?

I think we got to talk vision for the Shipyard Mastery Facility because—

I feel like that's— we've talked about it like here and there, but—

In 3 to 5 years when we're looking back on this as we are

Yeah.

Cutting the tape on this.

See how accurate we were.

Yeah. I have always had a vision to have some kind of in-place or in-person place. And to me, the whole point of building any kind of business online is to eventually have some kind of in-person manifestation of that community and make that a byproduct of the type of person you attract.

Yeah.

So, the Shipyard, and it's funny because we had these ideas independently. We started talking about it and it was like, I've been thinking about that exact thing forever.

Yep.

And maybe it's traced back to our, original influences of fitness influence, fitness YouTubers who have gone on to do this actual thing, where we got to see them start a gym at the very beginner stage. And I remember thinking that is impossible to even fathom. But if we wanted right now, we could go start both of these things. We're in a financial situation that we could do that. I don't think I'm ready for it from a skill perspective because I want to max out. I want to get the business side to a place of I'm managing more than doing so that I can give other things my attention. And so we're not there yet, but— The shipyard to me is going to have some kind of gym, some kind of coworking cafe, some kind of massive reception area where you can host events. And some kind of, I don't know if the restaurant needs to be in there, but some kind of steak bowl, healthy base style, all of that. And it, I think, and then obviously an office space where whether that's a small team, whether that's a big team, that just sounds so much fun to me to go and do. Yeah. And that's where I wanna go next is, Take this idea of the community that we've started to attract with Ship 30 of people who want to write every day. What happens when you start writing every day? Every other area of your life improves. You start to take your fitness more seriously. You start to recognize the business potential of what you're doing. Creating some kind of place where that person can gather is very exciting to me.

Yeah, you actually— this made me realize, um, I've always— I was the same way where I always wanted to start something physical. Like, I wanted a physical location of something. And at first it was like, I want to open a cool coffee shop. And then next it was like, maybe I want to open a gym. Mm-hmm. And then next, like, I started realizing these problems and it's like, there's not a good gym here. There's not a good coffee shop here. Like, I want to start one. I want to start one. And then the last one, as you mentioned, is like, why isn't there a food place where I can just like create a good bowl? Yeah. Like, yeah, Chipotle's fine, whatever. Modern Market's okay. But it's like, where's the bro stuff? Like, where's my steak? Where's my white rice? Where's some seasonings? Like, where's what I would have at home, just a little bit amplified without the bullshit? at like a price where I would be able to pay for it every single day. So it's like all of the problems in my physical location, I want to solve with the Mastery Facility.

Yes.

Right? So it's like have an espresso bar.

Of course.

Have the coworking space, have some form of, I'm still ideating this one, but like, I feel like it'd be like the, Like, you know how at Whole Foods they have like you build your own? Oh, the hot— You put your food in the box or whatever. It'd be similar to that. It'd be like build your own Chipotle, but with like good stuff.

No seed oils, of course.

Yeah. And then I didn't think about like something like the big reception or like conference room. I don't know if I'd want that or be able to rent it out because like, well, I want the gym as well. But I feel like we could have live events there, but we'd meet somewhere else, and then it's like, we're gonna go get in a Lyft, or we're going to like go co-work for a bit. And the co-working space, I feel like, could double as—

That's what I think happens. You can clear all that stuff out of there, and that becomes a group if we wanted to have a presentation that could hold 50 people, something like that.

Yeah, exactly.

And I think there needs to be some kind of like mini hotel attached where that— I think that is like the last level. But here's what I already know is gonna happen. We would build that, and then how do we continue growing with that? It would be expanding it or create some kind of long or larger scale one.

Yeah, it will be like the progression of like Christian Guzman with—

That's my number one fitness YouTuber influence. It's been very cool to see his whole journey because he's, I think, just turned 30 or 31. So he's like 4 years older than us. And it's been cool to see his progression. And that's how he's thinking about it, is he started that home one and now wants to go expand a bunch of them. Obviously, that's future pacing in a big way, and there's a ton that goes into that. But that to me is where this starts to get fun, is you get to just do bigger and cooler things. And tracing it back to hitting publish on a newsletter on the very first time 3 years ago is absurd to me. Absurd. Because how quickly this can happen.

Yeah. I like the Or now I think of, um, it's like for people that don't have the resources to go out and do what they want to do, the internet has created more stepping stones in order for you to get there. Mm-hmm. And, and allows like people of whatever financial position, even mental position, like whatever position you're in, like the internet is— it's a ladder that you can create your own rungs to reach the things that you actually want to do and generate the resources to do so.

And those preferences will evolve as you play the game.

Yeah, exactly.

Which is fun. If you would've told me— I studied math and computer science in college, right?

Yeah.

If you would've told me I was running a writing education company and writing software company 3 years ago, I'd have thought you were absurd. So maybe we're looking back on this in 3 to 5 years, and who knows what has accelerated or changed during that. And that's what's fun about this is you can put those ideas, start to maybe act on them. But here's what I— like we talked about earlier, I'm not going to right now go read a bunch of real estate tax and finance books. I'm going to—

It's not going to do anything for you right now.

None, because I don't have the lens yet. But the second I do, that is where I'm going to place all my attention.

Yeah.

And that excites me too. But for now, I don't see that getting my attention for 2 years, 3 years, something like that. I think you and I both have a lot more on the business side to go and do before we can give that our attention.

Yeah. Yeah, I just had— there's more logical steps. Like, I was— very close to just dropping like $150K to $200K on like gym equipment and finding a place. Mm-hmm. I was very close to doing that. And I just decided like, or I thought about it, I'm like, this isn't like, this sounds fun, but I'm not all, I'm not bought into it 100% yet. Like I'm kind of, I feel like I'm forcing my hand as to like what's next. And so I sat it out a bit and it's like the software makes more sense to do right now. That fits the puzzle piece to perfection. Yeah, it just didn't make sense at the time.

It's hard because the solution, whenever I start to think about these things, is almost always just make more money right now. Because then you have a completely new lens for, do I want to start this gym? Okay, it's $200 grand, great. Done. Check's in the mail. Let's get all that going and hire someone to do it for us.

I think that's one of the— it sounds pompous to people who aren't in the space where it's like, just make more money, bro. But once you get to the point, like— Once you start, yeah, it's like, if we wanted to— I've said this a few times in the newsletter and I don't like talking about it too much because as I said, you can it can be very heavily misinterpreted where it's like, if I wanted to right now, I could probably make $200K in 2 days. Yeah. If I crafted a promotion strategy, I have the resources available to do so in the form of product, audience, traffic, whatever it may be. But I may have to step on some toes. I don't wanna do that right now. I don't really care to do it. And it could, like, it just, it doesn't make sense.

You would tap into equity that you've been building and extract dividends too early.

Yes.

That's the entire way I think about it. That's the entire way I think about it is you are building goodwill, stacking equity.

Yep.

In the beginning, you build a little bit and then because of your financial situation, you need to tap into that equity and extract some dividends. Then you go back to building equity, extract a little bit of dividend. The whole game is that balance where every time that you ask, you have to kind of reset that equity a little bit. Now, you look at the people who are building billion-dollar brands, The Rock, his tequila, all of those, they have gone a long time before tapping into that equity and then it goes again.

Yeah.

The whole game is striking that balance.

Balance. Yep.

Where if you wait too long, then— and it all changes as you hit these different levels. Like, it goes back to in the very beginning when I wanted to make $10,000 in a year, how I would think about extracting those dividends is way different where single emails can generate hundreds of thousands of dollars now. You have to completely change. And it's way easier said than done to make that adjustment because 2 years ago, I say all the time, growth is having problems today that you would've begged to have had a few years ago, where you are now facing things that sure feel stressful right now, but your 2-year-ago self would've said, dude, that's your biggest problem today?

Yeah.

Like, snap out of it, man. You're living an absolute dream. And that only, Every 2 years that should happen if you're making progress.

Yeah.

But it all— yeah, just make more money, bro. It is— It

holds truth.

It does hold truth because you start weighing these things. It's like, well, this would probably be easier if I was operating from a better situation. So how do I go do that? And then I go do that. And then that could change. But if you are— Hmm. I'm trying to think about where it becomes most useful.

For the advice? Like, just make more money?

Yeah.

Once you know, like, you have to— well, I don't think the lesson there is just make more money. I think it's you, like, have the resources. You just aren't aware that you have them. You know what I mean? Where like, if you don't know how to just make more money, then you have to do the thing. Like you have, you can start the project, learn the skills and acquire the information necessary in order to do so. Like right now. Like, or at least over the next like month, 6 months, whatever it is.

Alex Hormozi talks about An ignorance tax. Yeah. It's my favorite term. My favorite term. Because I have realized that over the last few years, the number one— every time I have invested money and time into a course, into coaching, into some kind of education to pay down that ignorance tax, I've seen 10 to 20 to 50 to 1,000 times ROI.

Yeah.

Every single 10x in income I've had, I can point to some kind of paying down that ignorance tax. And so right now, the fact that he says it at a higher level, the fact that he's not a billionaire is costing him $1 billion a year. Yeah. Or the fact that he cannot make $100 million a year is costing him that much. And we talked about this at Tenor. Because all of those resources are there at this point, that makes me extremely uncomfortable.

Yeah.

Is at any moment, there is some piece of information out there that I could tap into to 10x my income or reach or growth again? And the fact that I don't, I'm not working towards that is like, it's hard. It's difficult because it's there. The path to making your first dollar is,

Yeah.

If so, if you haven't done it, you just haven't given it the right amount of attention. And that is probably the biggest piece of advice, is figure out where your ignorance tax is. Right now, for me, is completely different than where it was 2 years ago.

Yeah, same. I feel like that brings up— I was gonna say it sounds similar to a concept I have called tactical stress. But it's a tad different where most of the growth in my life has come from forcing myself to push to that point and let my actions follow back up. Mm-hmm. So whether that be like 2 years ago, at some time where I was like, I was very— I had a lot of scarcity around rent. I just don't I didn't like the potentially high prices. Like I'd gone from living in the dorms to like having 4 roommates and paying $300 a month for rent. Damn. And so I was always paying this low cost. And then when it came time to move into a nicer place and I was like looking around and there was like a $1,700 a month place. And I wasn't aware of like what rent prices look like anywhere, but I saw that and I'm like, Damn, that's like nothing I've ever paid before in my life. But I know I'm at the point in my life where I can afford that. I know I can sustain it. And if I have to, like if it's uncomfortable, I can make myself comfortable paying that. Like that can become, it's like the opposite of lifestyle inflation where it's like, I'm going to move here so that— Mm-hmm. I'm offsetting that where I have the skill in order to make 10x that. And this is gonna be what launches me into that. And so it's like gradually increasing that ladder, but that can get dangerous very quick, clearly. Mm-hmm. But it hasn't in my life yet because it's like, that's what's like, I wouldn't be here, I wouldn't be doing that thing if I hadn't put the money on the line. And it's the same thing with coaching where, It's like, I know I can make something work. I don't know what I'm missing right now. So I'm gonna drop $5K on this coaching. And every single time I do that, I get what I need. And then I usually stop showing up. Like, I don't even need it anymore. I stop showing up because I already made it work. I know I put the pressure on the line. I got what I needed and I built it. Mm-hmm. And so the money was kind of just like a, A way to force that.

2 things there. There needs to be a term for the opposite of lifestyle inflation, where you make an investment that forces you to grow into that.

Yeah.

So whether that's striking a— signing a lease on an apartment that is out of— it's slightly in that uncomfortable range, and then right away you go, I better live up to that. What does that type of person do who makes those types of choices? Otherwise, you're not in— you're not growing.

Right.

If you're not making those investments that continue to be what your former self would think is either not smart, but risky or not on the trodden path, right? constantly untraining myself from the take all your money, let it compound at 3%, 5%, like invest it in the market, invest it in whatever that everyone teaches, put it away for retirement. Because now, and this goes back to the identity list at the very beginning, I need to be investing all of my time and money in figuring out why I'm not making more money. Yeah. Or why I'm not using my time correctly. This picture of the ideal scene is very related to the ignorance tax. If you don't know what it looks like to do this thing well, and that's costing you a ton of time. Mm-hmm. And the byproduct of that is it's costing you a lot of money. So, I was just finishing up my kind of quarterly reflection, why I came out here. I like to break my frame a little bit, get off the grid, spend some time without my phone. All that.

In the Matrix. Exactly.

And one of it is— one of my big takeaways is that I have to continue to— anytime I'm starting something new now, I go, who knows this and knows what doing this well looks like? How can I pay them to win back my future time?

Yeah. Oh.

Because otherwise, I'm just wasting time. Because someone else has figured this out. And now we are in a situation financially where we can invest in that, where otherwise, like, the most direct teaching is one-on-one tutoring.

Yeah.

The most indirect teaching is a book. If you think about, if you could talk to one-on-one with Ray Dalio to talk about investing, or you could read his book, Obviously, the book is $10 and his one-on-one time is millions. Why? Because of how much value you're going to get in that unique experience. And so, that is uncomfortable to recognize because of those financial beliefs that we talked about at the very beginning.

Yeah.

Is, oh, wow, it's $5,000 to do that one-on-one coaching or course or whatever it is. 2 years ago, that was absurd.

Yep.

Now it's, I have to be doing that.

Yeah.

And so both— I tweeted this the other day— growth is having problems today that you would have begged to have had. Growth is making investments today that you used to think were absurd. Growth is saying no to opportunities that you would think were absurd to turn down 2 years ago. Yeah. Right? Someone could come to you right now and say, hey, I could help you make 10 grand tomorrow.

Yeah.

2 years ago, you'd be like, tomorrow?

Yeah.

Like, where do I sign? And that to me, I'm thinking more and more about this. What are those indicators of growth?

Yeah.

And saying no to opportunities, making uncomfortable investments, having problems today that you would have begged to have had. Those are things that you have to stay on top of because otherwise you're not going to continue growing.

It's dangerous, man, where like I— I'm trying to figure out how to get rid of this where I could probably— I can just outsource it, but I hate checking my email. Like, it's very quick too. It's very quick because I have filtered it to the point of like I don't get too many. But when I do check it, it's like, I need to practice more gratitude with this where it's like, there's just money sitting there where it's like Grammarly wants to sponsor the video. This person wants to sponsor the video. This person wants to like sign on for coaching. It's like, I'm not, I can't do any of this. Like I'm not doing it. And if I entertain it, it just wastes my time. Mm-hmm. Like frankly, it wastes my time. But the— what you meant, man, I had something for this, but— oh, that was like the main— oh, when you— I've never understood the— like, it wasn't made important to me, the whole like investing in some form of like retirement account. Mm-hmm. That wasn't really a thing when I was younger, but it became more of a thing when I started doing this and I started exposing myself to financial advice. And it's like, once I was already in the spot where it's like, why? I don't see the importance in this because you're asking me to set aside this much for this amount of time in order to make this much when I could just do this instead and use this money to make 10x that amount in a year. Like, why would I do that? You know what I mean? Like, I'm setting aside this money that I can't use at this very critical point in my life. Mm-hmm. To put towards better results.

Because there's never been— the returns on that money have never been as easy to multiply as they are now.

Yeah.

Because you can consume new skills quicker than you ever could have.

Yeah.

To then compound that.

I love that topic. Yes.

Right? The reason investing in the market was because you worked a fixed job with a fixed salary that had a fixed amount. And the only way to grow that income was through that.

Right.

You can't— if you were working a 9 to 5 where your inputs are not tied to your financial outcome, it makes no sense to try to invest in yourself in that way. But the second you have that sovereign lens of, I can earn more the second I have a better skill set, the idea of investing in the market goes completely away. Yeah. I need to be putting every single dollar into either something fully safe that gives me the peace of mind to go take bigger risks, or in aggressively paying down that ignorance tax of learning a new skill. Like, that's the entrepreneurial barbell of investing in your money. It's as safe as possible to give you the peace of mind or as aggressively as possible to compound your earning potential.

Yeah. Damn. That's interesting. Like, there needs— you could probably frame a tweet much better than that, content mode. But it's like investing in yourself is like— I'm not like— I have trouble seeing right now Aside from like the Bitcoin like hype at the time, Bitcoin hype, shitcoin hype, all of those things where like you could 10x your money. Like you don't— that's like once in a lifetime thing. Not once in a lifetime, but very, very rare thing that you probably shouldn't embark in when the only other way in my eyes in this point in time to get those types of returns is investing in yourself. Yeah. Like, and what better thing to be able to invest into? 'Cause it just, it not only 10x's like what, like resources you have, like money and knowledge, but it 10x's quality of life because you're your own.

Right.

In this case, it's hopefully an actualization hierarchy rather than a dominated hierarchy. But like, you can see how it's like you're just investing in the pyramid scheme of yourself, but under the actualization pyramid scheme.

The only recession or inflation-proof investments are in your skills. I love the idea of financial confidence versus financial security.

Yeah.

Financial security is very scarcity. It's once I have this amount of money, then like interest rates, interest on that takes care of me forever. That is like, uh, I never sat well with that. I get I just got to get to this point and then I can live off the interest. One, I never see myself not working. I'll always be wanting to grow in some way. Yeah, same. Financial confidence is you have the skills necessary to generate an income in any circumstance. Yep. Right? And I— that to me has always stuck of how am I developing some kind of financial confidence with what I'm doing? What are the skills that are lacking right now? What are the beliefs I have around money that are keeping me from progressing in that.

Yeah. And even if, uh, even if times change, we've developed the personality that we could adapt to the times. And one thing you mentioned there about like never stopping working, I, I agree, because it's polarity again, where work and rest are on the same spectrum. Like, it's not like one cannot exist without the other. Like, work would either become too boring or it just wouldn't make sense. Like, literally the word would not exist if the word or like feeling of rest did not exist because they play into each other. But at the same time, I want to, what do you see retirement like? Like, let's say, so in the timeframe, like age 65, you're an older dude. Hmm. What does like morning, afternoon, I

have no clue.

Really? I see myself sustaining a 2-hour writing habit.

Oh, for sure.

100%.

I mean, everything I'm doing right now is to build the foundation to be a world-class father in the next 10 years.

That's good. I'm kind of— I'm on the spectrum where it's like I'm doing now— no, I'm experimenting now Or I'm doing what I— how do I frame this? Sorry, I kind of took over right there. But like, people— I've questioned myself a lot when someone like wants to do something fun and I just have no desire to do it. It's like, I'd rather do what I do every single day 'cause I'm living my ideal lifestyle right now. Mm-hmm. And if that ever changes, it changes. And so it's like, I have that power Where right now I would hope that I'm doing the thing that I'm going to do when I'm 65. If I'm not, why am I doing it? Like, if I'm not going to do it, it's like, if I want to become a writer, why am I not writing every day right now? Or every week, month, whatever it may be. Why is it not a habit in my life if I want to become that already? Like, you're only increasing the scale at which you do it, where— As a beginner, if you don't have the time or resources, like it's gonna be 30 minutes in the morning regardless of whether you're getting paid or not, right? Mm-hmm. Some people wait until they can get paid when you're missing a crucial piece of the function there where like you have to start before you can learn or before you can get paid. It just has to, like you have to live your ideal lifestyle right now or at least seek to create it so that you can sustain it.

To me, there are certain things that I know are only going to get more difficult as I get older. And right now, all of my focus is on building my health foundation and my financial foundation. To me, that leads to everything else that I want to develop as I get older. Right. And it only gets more difficult to build your health and financial foundation as you get older.

Yeah.

So, I look at it as—

Oh, that's good.

I have to start now on those because if I can store as much energy as possible in those foundations, they become more passive over time. You have—

Systems. They're more efficient.

Exactly. And so, The way I think about this is maintenance is the same level of difficulty wherever you're at. So let's take the financial and the health side. A billionaire with $1 billion in his bank account and someone with $50 in their bank account, maintaining that level of wealth is the same difficulty. They just put it in a bank account.

Right.

It earns 3%. That person with $1 billion of stored energy, makes way more because way more has gone into that.

Yeah.

The person in ridiculously good shape and the person in horrible shape, maintaining their current health is the same level of difficulty. They just continue doing the things that got them to where they are now.

Yeah.

Or at an even lower scope. But getting there is a lot harder.

Right.

In both of those scenarios. So, the amount of effort required to get to that passive state is way more than most people think. And the level to maintain it is way less.

Yeah.

So, I look at what are the things that are only going to get harder to reach as I get older? And it's my health and financial foundation. Because with that set, I think I can go on to the relationship side of things, having an army of 10 children plus, a giant ranch in Argentina, all of that. Who knows where— obviously, my preferences and things like that are going to change. But to me, those take care of themselves with these foundations set. So where I'm at at 65, I don't know.

Yeah.

I don't know where my— I think my— you look at entrepreneurial primes, they're always like late 30s, early 40s.

Yeah.

Where people really hit their stride. And so I look at where we're at as like the preseason of all this, which is very exciting. But I don't know where I'm gonna be at 65. I don't know where I'm gonna be at 35. I have a pretty good sense of where I wanna be At thirty, and it's continuing to do the things I'm doing now. I I woke up this morning and was doing my quarterly reflection and was like, "I have twelve blocks of twelve weeks until I'm thirty," and I that kind of freaked me out. Kind of freaked me out a little bit.

So twelve quarters? Mm-hmm.

Thirteen weeks.

Yeah.

Twelve weeks. Whatever. Twelve and twelve sounded better. But yeah, right away I was like, wow, okay, what just happened over the last 12 weeks? Great, awesome progress. But the sense of urgency I emerged with— It's so short. So short, so short. And only gonna feel shorter as we go. So I don't know where 65 is. I know that 30 is, Very similar to what I'm doing now, but just at a higher level.

Yeah. I love that. That sparked good discussion. Even though you don't know what you want at 65, that was a very good lesson.

How about you?

I definitely wanna write. Like my— so when I said earlier, like the things in life, I see it from The— in terms of like habits, like the— like progress, like peace and progress, right? That balance rather than like certain individual things in life that like— yeah, I'd have to frame it more. But what I really mean is like, what's the one habit that is going to result in progress, which is writing? Hmm. And what is the one that's going to result in peace, which is I mean, there can be a few, but it's like walking and going on walks. And so in terms of like very like the principles of my lifestyle, it's probably the things that I'm doing right now, which is writing, walking, reading, getting sun when I can. It keeps disappearing on me here, but—

Come to Miami, man. Yeah.

Yeah, one day soon. Eating good dinners. That's one thing I remember I was on Noah Kagan's podcast the other day and he asked like, what's different between now and like then? And from like the start of the freelancing journey to now. And it's like, I really like fancy dinners. Like that's what, that's if I'm willing to spend money on anything, it's dinners. Because they're so good. And so I wanna maintain that. Like, it's not, it's maybe like a biweekly or like a bi— yeah, biweekly thing where it's like we'll go out like with 2 or 3 friends and just have a good dinner and have great conversation. That those are like habits I wanna sustain. Yeah. 'Cause that's really fun.

There's, there's certain things that Group dinners, definitely up there on— but it's very interesting. So, I'm now 15 months without alcohol. Yeah. Just experimenting with that because when I was at that beginning 15 months ago, I was doing some reflection on I probably hadn't gone more than a week without alcohol in 10 years.

Yeah.

When I was 25, because I looked about like beginning of high school, middle high school, whatever.

Damn.

Right?

Yeah.

But, but it was so normalized, extremely normalized. College, you drink, whatever.

Yeah.

And why I bring that up is very, very nice dinners are not— you can get the nicest things on the menu for like a couple hundred dollars if you're not drinking $1,000 bottles of wine. Like, that's the power law of if you keep— they can get progressively, progressively more expensive. But like, I went to one of the nicest steakhouses here last night, did a solo dinner, was like, I want to try everything on this menu. It was like $300.

Yeah.

2 years ago, 3 years ago, I'd have thought that was absolutely absurd.

Yeah.

But you recognize that there are a lot of things that are not that far out of reach when you reach a certain level.

Yep.

And not much will change. Like, I don't see very much changing in my life for a long time in terms of what I'm able to do. Like, from certain levels of income, you need $100 million plus to have a private plane or a yacht or whatever. Like, those are— and I think you see that in how people operate. operate is they hit the level of wealth where they can do just about everything except those things. They can travel wherever they want. They can fly first class. They can stay at the nice hotels, but you're not going to be able to buy the plane or the boat. Then you have to go take shots that help you get to that. I don't know what the exact numbers, what kind of to break that down, but not much has changed. And that has been an interesting realization is that— Yeah. The things I really, really like do not cost an absurd amount of money that I think in the very beginning you're like, oh, I need this, this, this. No.

Right.

And nice steaks are definitely one of them. Yeah.

I'm not— honestly, I like steak, but I— to me, they all— I need to try that place that you mentioned. But like, to me, I have trouble noticing the difference between like a nice steak and a Just like, I, I don't know. I really like cheap steaks.

Yeah.

Like, and like the thin, like beef jerky-ish. That's like my texture. People will hate me for that, but I, I've just never liked— I like it.

Yeah.

I've just never like loved like a fatty, juicy steak. It just doesn't sit well.

Dude, you're about to get absolutely canceled all across Twitter. That's gonna get clipped out.

I know. I was like, I'd honestly— this might get me canceled even more. I like Just like shredded chicken more than steak. Like, that would be my preference of like a carne asada taco versus like a chicken taco. It's probably the chicken taco or fish.

The monotony— there is something, and you've tweeted about this before, of falling in love with the monotonous, boring stuff is the superpower where you learn to love that 100th day in a row of eating ground beef and rice. And when you do that, but that That is what unlocks all of the progress.

That's why it's enjoyable. Yes. Is because you know that you've experienced the progress to the point where you know the consistency with it. You can feel the little progress.

Yes.

Like, you know that it is just subtle increases in progress, even though you can't, it's not tangible. You know, but you know you're making progress with every single action.

And that's, you have to do things for a certain period of time consistently before you can recognize that you're stacking another brick on that. Every time I sit down and heat up ground beef, brown rice, 2 hours before I hit the gym, knowing I'm going to do the exact same workout I did on that day a week earlier and try to add 1 pound to each lift, and that's the 34th week in a row I've done that exact one.

Yep.

I always— I never would've thought that I'd fall in love with that process. Mm-hmm. But that's where I'm at now, because I know I've done this long enough now that I can project 5 years of that and say, I am doing the things today that if I simply continue doing, I know exactly where I end up. That is very fulfilling to me, is that when I can see the actions I'm taking today as inevitable to achieve what I want if I just do them.

Yeah, that's really it. Because, you know, like, that's the other thing is once you've started, you've gotten that result, you made the— you've applied the just make more money, bro principle across like all domains. Like, once you solidify that, you reach that little peak, then like everything becomes a lot easier. But then you reach that point where it's like, okay, time to experiment with different things. here and there just to see how it impacts the routine. Like, that's what I've noticed. And you mentioned like alcohol, and I stopped for a bit and like started to introduce it back because I wanted to like tackle it, right? 'Cause it was either like, that was my thing is I, for me personally, I didn't see myself like winning the alcohol battle by getting rid of it completely. Mm-hmm. It was more so, okay, how do I moderate this so I can like have that drink at the table instead of— because normally it'd be like once a week I go and I didn't even have the intention of having 1, 2 drinks. It was I had the intention of having 8 to 10, and how do I plan that into my calories? Which, which like I, I do on occasion. This is like every like 3 months now.

Yeah.

Where it's like, that's a hard reset.

Uh-huh.

And it helps. And then I realize, okay, yeah, I didn't like that, and so I stopped for a bit. And it's a good—it's a good reminder. It's not a very conducive reminder to my health, but at the same time, I don't think a lot of things are that we do. But no, I—I like questioning things a lot pertaining to that, whether it be like the—the diet stuff that we talked about earlier, like specific—the pure

seed oil diet for a week.

Like yeah, like magic foods. But it's the same where it's like I heard Alan Watts died of alcoholism. And I'm like, this dude was an alcoholic? And then I was like, so is he like fake? Like, and so I dove down certain rabbit holes. I started reading books on like the philosophy of drinking and like exposing myself to the other side of the argument. And now I'm not trying to recommend anything in any way to anyone, but that's the thing is I do think I won the alcohol battle. And it's like, we went out to dinner the other night. It's like, I had a drink. It was fucking awesome. Yeah. I loved, My first martini was good.

The idea that complete abstinence from anything is easier than slight moderation.

I feel like it is.

Way easier. And so in my head, I'm like, oh, I cut alcohol to zero. But I know it's like, you take ice baths ever? No. Oh, really? Oh, dude, you're just continuing to get canceled on.

I know I'm gonna have to, yeah.

It's easier to stay still in the ice bath than it is to move around, but it feels like it's harder. You're like, oh, I'm staying here. I'm like, but if you were to just flail your arms the whole time, it's actually way harder. So with alcohol, it's— I cut it to zero, and this is where I'm at right now, is I know it's actually easier to do what I'm doing than it would be to do what you've done.

Yeah, but it's difficult. Yeah.

But I haven't done that. I know that for my entire life, I'm not going to keep it at zero, I don't think. And that's with a lot of things. But cutting it to zero to then reset the slate and then break the frame of— yeah.

And you know you have that tool as well because like cutting it to zero is better if you're trying to build things with the saved energy, right? Like, you know that you can allocate more energy to something else by doing that. Yeah. So it was a conscious decision on your end.

And I'm still in that season of, I know that every day that I lose is costing my future self in a big way.

Yeah.

Which is why I'm sticking with that. And will that be the case for 5 years? I don't know.

Right.

I know it is for at least the next year because I've never felt as confident in the path forward to take ship 30 to 8 figures, which is the goal by the end of this year, than just showing up and doing exactly what I know I need to do. It's like a literal number of hours away. And I'm sure you feel the same way with once the book is going live, it turns into— or once the software is going live, it's literally just a number of hours of execution away.

Yeah, I agree. It's like with the, yeah, the book is the same thing where like that is the first, the book is the first long-term, like super long-term project where it's like, I'm gonna be working on this every day for a long time. Hmm. Like I mentioned how I wrote the draft in like 30 days, but that's because I spent 2 years or like 6 months writing the first draft. Like very first draft, another 6 months re-outlining it and starting to write it and picking up ideas. Like it's a culmination that's like slowly improved and it's been that 2-year process that led to that. And so that alone has been great. And now it's like leading to the point of launch and I'm very stoked about launch. Like I wanna make it special to the point of— Yeah. Like, I wanna do custom covers for like the first 1,000 copies with like silver foil. And I wanna send Joey a like purple foil one 'cause he's been helping me a lot with it and have like one for you and Justin and both Justins and then other people with like the name engraved on it. Mm-hmm. I feel like little minor touches would just be fun. I don't know. It's one of those projects where I'm grateful to be at the point where it's like I can treat this one as a passion project, where it's just, I wanna have fun with this without expectation.

When is it launching?

I have no idea. Okay. I don't know how long the entire revision and editing process takes. I've talked to like one person, I've talked to multiple people, but one person said they went through like 8 revisions on theirs. And I was, and they were like, and I was like going through mine on the first revision and it's taken me like a week to get through like a chapter or 2. And I've thought of 8 revisions. I'm like, this is gonna take another 6 months to like revise this entire thing. But I don't think it's, it'll take that long. So I'm hoping it'll launch Q3 or Q4 of this year. Hmm. If I can. Depends on publishing stuff. I'm learning on the go. Like I don't even know what the publishing process looks like yet.

Well, I'm glad you're going through this because I do want to write a book eventually. I don't know about what. I don't know on what yet. But my upcoming sprint is getting our ghostwriting coaching up and running, which is a completely different skill than anything I've built before, which goes back to, great, what are all the things I need to go— it's going to be hiring a larger team. It's going to be learning to manage versus do. Yeah. I'm 100% Entering— and this is actually my third takeaway from the quarter— is I'm in a consumption and delegation season, not a creation season, where you are about to enter almost purely a creation season. I'm in a— I know what needs to get built. I'm unable to completely build that myself. I need to go learn the skill and then find people who are able to support in completing that.

Yeah.

And that's been another good realization for me is that there are seasons of both where I haven't been writing nearly as much this year and that has been somewhat uncomfortable, but I've been far more in a, I need to be talking to people. Like my deep work time is much less because we have a larger team now. And the highest return on my time is not sitting for 4 hours writing right now. Will that be the case forever? No, I intend to go back to creation seasons and things like that. But that's been another area of growth is recognizing what— where is my time best spent right now?

Yeah. Are you enjoying that? Are you enjoying the managing side of things or just like talking to more people instead of the writing?

I think it's It's a slightly different level of kind of comfort in the sense that there's always— when you are in a management mode, there's always something you could be doing to push other people along, where it feels like I'm never completely shut off from it.

Yeah.

I'm always a Slack message away from making progress on that thing. Whereas a creation, I think I am cognizant that you cannot be creative all day.

Yeah.

You cannot put in 15 hours where you have to step away from it. But something like, hey, I'm working with a team of 3 customer success managers for our community that I know I could be coaching to do things more efficiently, Giving them feedback, helping them get clarity on things, unblocking them on— in certain ways where I feel that my day is longer in that sense.

Yeah.

And I just haven't built the skill. That's how I know that it's a skill deficiency, because I feel busier, which means I lack the skill of prioritization, planning, delegation, execution, all of that.

Yeah. Which degrees of clarity. clarity to an extent.

And back to the ideal scene, I don't know what that looks like. So I'm thinking about going and hiring a— some kind of productivity/focus management coach for me of, hey, this is what my day looks like right now in this current chapter. Where am I just completely off base? And anyone can apply that level of thinking wherever they're at. of, hey, I'm just starting to write on Twitter. Where am I just completely wrong? And figure out a way to talk to someone about that. And that's where I'm at right now is I'm entering a new chapter. I'm probably doing so many things that are painstakingly, glaringly, obviously wrong that I have no clue.

Yeah.

Right? I need to go figure out who knows what the ideal scene is that can— because for me, and you're the same way, the second you see a blueprint to do something correctly, you can instantly apply it.

Yeah.

It's like, oh, wow, I've just been doing this horribly wrong. Okay, let me change that. But I go extended periods of time doing things wrong because I'm unaware that I'm doing it incorrectly.

Yeah.

The way I think about this is You look at someone who— I don't know the best way to explain this, but when there are tangible things that you can see. So let's just take someone, for example, that is very overweight. That is a physical culmination of their choices and doing things incorrectly for a long period of time. Mm-hmm. But that you're able to see that. So I'm constantly asking myself, where am I that, but it's just, I'm not able to see it.

Yeah.

There's no physical manifestation of it.

Right.

Where am I compounding these small decisions day after day after day that are leading me to being metaphorically obese, but I just can't see it?

Yeah, that's how I like to put it too. Like the, as I applied like the survival and reproduction things to the mind, it's the same thing with like bulking and cutting in bodybuilding. There's so many parallels where like you bulk and there reaches a point where you push too far, you've gained too much mental fat. Mm-hmm. And it's overwhelming. And eventually you're gonna have to cut back down to reveal the muscle that you built underneath it. Right, and that is like the new baseline, whether it be in like monthly revenue, maybe you do a promotion and you push super high, but that's clearly a spike, but you have to reach some form of a higher baseline from that. You can't just drop back down. Well, you can, but you won't just drop back down because that's how it goes. It just increases.

But in terms of am I enjoying it? Yes, because fulfillment for me is learning new things. Yeah. Full stop.

I feel like that's what a lot of people don't realize is they like learning one thing and then they can, they, or they become passionate about one like skill, but that's because they were passionate about learning it. Like the psychological processes behind that that made you enjoy the skill is what you actually enjoyed. You enjoyed the process, but you mislabeled it for the end result. And so that reframe would help a lot of people because I think it's more so you're passionate about life itself rather than like you try to find the passion.

Yes. That has been my entire life. The different hats and things. So we talked about I was a speedcuber in 5th grade.

I did that. To bring it up, I did it. My fastest one was like 56 seconds.

Okay.

I didn't compete or anything. I just loved doing it. I'd like— So fun. Petroleum jelly.

Oh, of course.

That was fun.

I was doing exercises to spin the cube faster, man. I took it seriously.

Nice.

And then 7th grade, I played professional Call of Duty for a year and a half. I was one of the best players in Florida.

Really?

On the pro circuit.

Wait, which Call of Duty?

4. Call of Duty 4.

Dude, I had pneumonia at the time, and that's how I got 10th prestige is because I was home for 3 weeks. I was just sitting there with like the nebulizer mask on grinding matches. And yeah, that was such a good game.

But I've always just loved playing a new game, getting up to speed on it quickly, feeling like I mastered it, and then moving on.

Yeah.

And,

and that's metaphorical. I would say that isn't like Call of Duty. That's—

No, it's everything. Yeah, everything. And now I'm looking at how can I apply that in the highest leverage way possible. So, what business model, what operating vehicle allows me to obsess over something new, learn it, and then step away from it? But instead of losing all— like, the amount of time I spent playing Call of Duty that doesn't pay me anything right now, like, if that had been a business that was now compounding dividends for me forever, like, that amount of stored effort. I'm trying to apply that same level, but maybe it's a portfolio of businesses, maybe it's whatever I end up choosing that stores that energy somewhere. And leaning into that is kind of my personal superpower in a sense.

Yeah, I love that. I feel like mine is— I'm leaning very— if the universe has it as it will, like where I thought or I always wanted to become a YouTuber and kind of came full circle to that. I've always wanted to become an author too. And so like reflecting on it and how much I enjoyed this process, I could really see myself like not pushing further in certain areas simply to write like 10, 20, 30 books. Damn. I feel like that would be fun. Hmm. Of all different things, like a health book, a creator economy book, like all these different ones, like how Alan Watts wrote a bunch and they're kind of just, Random, honestly. Like, he just picks a topic and muses on it, and it's good, and it's fun and rewarding.

Is the higher level there that you like to educate?

I like to conceptualize. Like, I like to create concepts. Like, one-person business isn't my concept, but I like to bring new meaning to it. Like, I like to fill in the blanks to help people see. So yeah, educating As a game, like not as a, like here's these steps that I've been told are the steps. It's more so here's the steps that I've learned from this specific perspective and here's some other perspectives to help back that, right? So it's like synthesis is my passion. Well, synthesis is fun.

I feel the same way.

But there's so many different ways to do it. That's the thing is you like find the vessel. And that could be the Mastery Facility is a physical synthesis, right?

Yes.

That's what we're doing. And I feel like that's where things are moving because it's like we have all of these individual things. And so the next step is like to avoid saturation, you transcend and include. Like that's— You integrate, where it's like you create something new by combining them together.

Right. And that unlocks new lenses to go and create from. Yeah, you're just constantly evolving in that.

You want to take a break real quick?

Yeah.

Yeah.

How long have we been going? What time is it? My watch is on East Coast time.

2:10.

2:10. So we've been going like Damn, like two and a half hours, three hours.

Oh wow! Damn, it's already three hours.

That's crazy.

We need we got to keep this part in.

We we keep this part in honestly because I had no clue we'd gone this far. That's awesome. Yeah, I was lost in that.

That is wow. I'm

going to take a five minute break, come back, we'll hammer home some questions. So that was two and a half hours. That I get why Joe Rogan does this now because that was immersive. I don't. So we have this timer here. I didn't look at that one time. My watch is on West Coast or East Coast time, so I just couldn't even tell what time it was.

Yeah.

And that was crazy.

Yeah, I thought we were like maybe 2 hours in. I did look over at that because that was only set to 60 minutes for— and that went out fast. Like I saw it sitting at zero and I knew that like double, if not triple, the time had gone by. So That's crazy.

I want to do more of these. I want to do more of these for sure.

Yeah.

So why don't we finish? We asked Twitter to submit questions. I think the one question that covers pretty much all of their questions are daily routines, what, how we spend our time currently. But I also think how we spend our time currently is far different than how we spend our time 2 years ago. And I'm always wary of looking at people's current routines versus—

Yeah.

I want to know what they were doing when they were at my stage. So why don't we— you can go first. Let's do, what was your daily routine 2 years ago when you were just— when I sent you that DM like, hey, loved the podcast you were on?

It was the same. Hmm. And before that, I would argue it was the same too, because like I've always— I've the only— I only worked one full-time job. And even then it was— I was able to go remote after some time being there. But even when I was there, I— it was like, so it wasn't lax, but it was like they would assign me clients and then I had to manage, like I had to get the work done for them. And so I would just push everything back and procrastinate that work while working on my own stuff for the first 2 to 4 hours. The only differences in my routines is that I used to go to the gym first thing in the morning. Hmm. And now it's at like 2. So I've had the same components in my days. It's just been a matter of like, changing them, changing the when they're done around. So there's always been deep work of some kind or deep study. And especially in college, like it was more so deep study. And it'd be like 2 to 4 hours ranging, usually 2 if like I was doing something else. But right now I'll just go over like the pieces of—

Yeah.

what I do and the intention behind them, the why, 'cause I feel like the why is very important as well. Right now, we talked about this, but I, first thing I do, I'm experimenting with morning cardio. Mm-hmm. Just like straight down to walk on the treadmill for 20 minutes. Mm-hmm. Get sweaty, get blood pumping, wake up. And the main reason behind that is I want to, not only like have a good way of waking up and something to do where I don't have to worry about anything but that activity right when I wake up. Like I don't have to guess, okay, I gotta, am I gonna turn the shower on first or am I gonna go like make coffee first? And with this, it's like, I don't have to shower, I don't have to anything. It's like throw on the clothes I took off last night, go get sweaty, take 'em off, shower, and then decide. Hmm. The other thing is that I want to start paying more attention to cardiovascular health because as bros, we put that off for a long time just for the sake of like lifting weights. So that's another reason. But then after that, I like hygiene, shower, make coffee, and I'll sit down and I'll write the book. So my very first time block, which is like 45 to 90 minutes, Right now it's usually about 60 minutes. So we'll just, whenever I say time block, let's say it's like 60 minutes, right? Mm-hmm. So the very first time block of my day is done at home and it's always based on the highest priority project that I'm doing at the time. And right now the highest priority project is usually something I'm building. It's usually not a maintenance phase. So first time block is always like a building phase. And right now it's the book. So I've been doing that every single morning. And then after that, I will, I just moved, but I will drive to the coffee shop. I used to walk to the coffee shop, but I'll drive, I'll get an Americano just for the sake of, I like Americanos, keep it simple. No decision fatigue, no calories. And then I'll set up shop there, write the newsletter. For the newsletter. for a time block. And that's more of like the— that's like a maintenance phase where it's like my content, newsletter, outlining the newsletter. It all revolves around like, what are the main things that I have to maintain that I enjoy doing in business? And then after that, I'll drive back and I'll usually go on like an hour-long walk. This is when I like walk a lot. If there's sun out, then I go shirtless and like, that's how I get a tan. And I'll listen to whatever I want to listen to. Hmm. It's not a quiet walk. It's me trying to— the intention isn't to generate ideas, but it is where I'll listen to an audiobook that sounds interesting. I'll listen to a YouTube lecture. I'll listen to a podcast or something. It can— or I can catch up on like who I missed on YouTube or something like that. And I usually come back with some good ideas written down on my phone. After that, I'll do the second maintenance. time block. And that is just like checking in on the community, checking emails. That's pushback. Like, I have to do that last in the time blocks because that will fuck you up if you do that like first thing in the morning. It just opens way too many loops. Mm-hmm. So it's structured like slowly opening myself up to the world as time goes on throughout the day. And that's what I've found to be the best. And then after I expose myself to emails and more people and community, Then I go straight to the gym to like kind of wash myself from that and take out any potential rage that emails may have caused. So it's pretty well balanced. And then after that, I usually, I've been going to lunch a lot lately. It's less like nice dinners. It's more like sustainable, healthy lunches at like solid restaurants around me. Mm-hmm. So I love walking to those, sitting there, just walking around for Like, it usually takes like an hour or 2. Come back, check in on community again, and then that's it.

Kind of it for the day.

Yeah.

So you're going to lunch after the gym?

After the gym, yeah.

So it's like you get to the gym at what? What are the times basically on a lot of those blocks?

So in the morning, I wake up at 5:30. Morning cardio is usually done by 6:00. I usually can get to my desk by 6:30. Write until 7:30, take dog out, get to the coffee shop a little bit around-ish 8, get home by 9. No, get home by 10, do the walk, check in and stuff. Usually gym is like 12:30, 1. Sometimes stuff happens and I've been moving right now, so like things are all over the place. But then after that, usually back from lunch and errands by like 3, 4, and then more walks later in the day. More— that's like when I can read or just watch YouTube or just not work.

Mine has changed so much. I

think ours, like, the little things have, but we've— I remember we were like brainstorming.

Yeah, current currents are pretty similar, but when I was working in New York and knew I was gonna eventually— because that's completely different routine than the one I'm on now.

Yeah,

I mean, for all of 2021, granted I was working from home at the time, so I did have a little bit more flexibility, but I was still working that full-time job at BlackRock, scaling Ship 30 on the side. So it was 4:30 AM to 7:30, pure writing for a year or more.

Yeah.

Because I had to be present for a meeting at 7:30 AM pretty much every day for the 3 or 4 years that I was working there. And So, even going further back, when I was in New York City, it was 4:30 up because I had to— I was still trying to improve my health at the time, granted, unsuccessfully doing so. I experimented with everything. I mean, I was on my weight loss phase then, going from 280 down to 220 down to whatever, fasting, keto. I've tried everything, done everything. Yeah. But it was always 4:30 because I had to exercise and do anything productive before I got to the desk at 6:50, 7:00 AM. And then I'd be under those fluorescent lights from 7:00 to like 5:30 or 6:00, sometimes later. Damn. And then walk home, realize that I could eat dinner, and then start to panic that I had to be up at 4:30 the next day. And basically I did that for a year and a half.

Yeah.

But I share that because that is what had to get done.

Yeah.

And people go, how did you do that working a full-time job? And like, the inconvenient truth is I spent from 4:30 to 7:30 and 7:00 PM to 10:00 writing, learning, building, doing things. for 2 years.

Yeah.

To unlock the ability to not have to spend that middle 12 hours of my day working for someone else. So I do like to preface that because that was what got me to have the freedom and flexibility for my current day. Where I'm at right now, it is always a game of experimentation because there are so many— the— as someone who likes structure and prefers routine. I'm always trying to set my day up in some kind of repeatable way. Yeah. And always kind of struggling with that because the growth that the business has seen over the last 2 years has meant changing that quite a bit. So, and I moved cities, I moved from living at home to having a place in Miami. That's completely different living on my own. et cetera. Mm-hmm. But the broad blocks that I have are some kind of morning cardio. Now, it's funny because you get into the weeds of those little things where now I'm hearing that you're back on immediate first thing cardio, whereas I've now gone— I'm up at 5:00, but I immediately go to the computer and work for 90 minutes. Like, I'll foam roll, drink some water, do all that, supplements, et cetera. But then I try to squeeze out a 90-minute work block because I've enjoyed going to bed thinking about one idea, waking up and then executing on that first thing. But I also realize like my brain fires a little bit better if I've done cardio beforehand.

Yeah.

But now I do the cardio after cardio. Health is important. You mentioned that. I'm running like 8 to 10 miles a week right now and enjoying that because I know that that is hard to maintain in the long run. But I— and then I lift it at 4. So I go 90 minutes of work, usually some kind of creative work or some kind of immediate learning. But I try to stay away from consumption early in the morning. I think you have— Yeah. You have pure, uninterrupted— I went to bed thinking about an idea, I thought about it all night, that's been marinating. I wake up and I express that, and I always have some kind of clarity. I basically go to bed and I write one thing down of like, what is the one thing I'm thinking about overnight that I can then do it first thing? Mm-hmm. That to me has always been when I've had my most powerful idea breakthroughs. Then I either run or do some kind of cardio or yoga or whatever it is on that. I run 4 to 3 times a week, do yoga twice a week at that— in that time block. Come back, cook breakfast, eat breakfast. That's a new thing over the last 6 to 8 months that I've been doing.

That's what I've been doing too. I'm switching back to IF.

Oh, really?

Intermittent fasting, or at least to experiment again, because like, I like eating in the morning. I just find it like— and I'm definitely more full And it benefits my life, but I don't know, there's something about intermittent fasting that I just genuinely enjoy, like the structure of that. It's— and the morning of just like—

Nothing.

I'm not eating until this time.

So, it's decision fatigue.

Yeah.

But it's funny because the two, they're 100% at odds of putting on muscle and maximizing your productivity. Right. They are simply Opposite. Because to truly maximize adding muscle and building in that way, you need continuous consumption. But I 100% operate the best mentally when I'm fasted.

But even then, like, think about it. So you operate the best mentally. And so decision fatigue and stress, like, there's a lot of different things coming into play. And do you know Martin Berkhan? He's like one of the people that helped popularize intermittent fasting. He has the Lean Gains Method. He's like, His whole thing is super, like 60% protein with every single meal and fast, of course, and do like very high-intensity training 3 times a week, very compound-focused. He's fucking huge. Yeah. Like he's jacked. He's probably one of the most jacked and shredded dudes that you will see. He's kind of fallen off, but he's like, he looks natural too. So I don't think he's taking anything, but at the same time, he blows most physiques, most natural physiques right now out of the water. And so it makes me think, it's like—

Yeah, but then it's like, yeah, but is that just despite everything he's doing or because of it?

I think it's both. Like, it could be consistency, it could be like he's strong as hell. At least what he did for me is he broke the Believe— well, look at Thomas DeLauer too. His physique is insane and he's like huge on fasting. Yeah, like that's his thing. So

my take on it is like almost none of it matters except calories in, calories out, and you find a way to get enough protein. Like those, those— we just went down the rabbit hole a little bit. It's like, oh, come back out. What does it mean? I need high level, you know? And the truth is most of that doesn't matter, and I try to remind myself of that.

Yeah, especially consistency and like sustainability and enjoyment definitely play a role.

And I— so I've found that I like taking 20 minutes eating breakfast on my balcony in the sun. It's like, okay, I'm gonna keep doing that. And then depending on the day, I either— I'm trying to figure out what days of the week I have meetings because now I've entered a season where I need to be talking to people. At the beginning of the year, Before I kind of made the objective decision to— at the beginning of the year, I was kind of debating, do we want Ship 30 to kind of stay where we're at and execute in this way, or do we want to try to take things to the next level with new products, new offers, things like that, which require more people? And Cole and I sat down and said, we want to go with the latter. It's more fun. We're going to continue to grow rather than just do the same thing over and over. So Tuesdays and Fridays have kind of turned into my pure meeting time where I'm stacking those days full of meetings. And then Monday, Tuesday, or Monday, Wednesday, Thursday, I try to leave the mornings as free as possible. I'm, right now, I don't have a set daily routine in that regard. I'm trying to figure out because of the changes that we're undergoing what that looks like. So I don't have a clear one other than I lift at 4. Wow. Because I found that, If I was just maintaining what I was doing, I would 100% lift first thing in the morning. I'd just check that box and get it out of the way. Like, when I'm a dad in the future, up early, in the home gym, done.

Yeah.

Right? But not in this current one because I know that it's better to have meals in me. I feel better. I'm stronger, things like that. Other things. I'm at like 20,000 steps a day. Yep, same. So, anything that I can do away from the computer that is not required, I take on a walk. So, that's almost all my writing. I have recognized that I am an audio-based learner. I do not read well in terms of downloading information. But if I hear something, I can tune in and Very quickly picked it up and listen at 2 to 3 times speed and have no drop-off in retention versus reading. Again, I always thought that was some kind of deficiency. Now I say, wow, I can learn and walk at the same time. That's great.

Yeah.

All my calls, all my write— almost all my writing actually happens now on walks. And

same. That's a game changer, dude.

So much better, especially too with ChatGPT. I use it as a formatter now where I will do a lot of my writing in bullet points, and then I'll say, hey, format this as paragraphs. And it'll just take those exact ideas that I feed it as an outline and boom, it just does light formatting changes. It's saving me hours.

Wow.

What else? That's kind of it. I try to have all my stuff shut off by 8:00 and spend the last hour of the day either journaling or thinking about what I want to do the next day. But that is my current biggest weakness in terms of my routines is that my evenings are very sometimes not unproductive. And not that every moment has to be productive, But I haven't found out what I want to do the last hour of the day.

Yeah.

Because all I really want to do is go to bed and wake up tomorrow to start on the next day's thing, which is like, it's funny to say out loud, but I want to fill it with some kind of hobby. And I think it's going to be learning to play house music in the last hour of the day.

Oh, that'll be good.

Right? Because I can completely immerse myself in that. It's so separated from everything else I'm doing. And if I I can just lock into that creatively every night or some kind of hobby there is kind of the next step I wanna take. Oh,

I like that. Yeah, my nights are usually pretty unproductive. Like I would consider, yeah, maybe I could, I don't think I would coin and promote this by any means, but it's like normie nights. That's what I do. Like usually by 7, That's like when it's just hard cutoff where it's like, I'm gonna sit on the couch, I'm gonna watch some Netflix, watch a good show. Last Kingdom, that show is so fucking good. And it gives me ideas, like, especially if you're watching shows that are like story-based. It's like, it's like, as you said, you're an audio-based learner. I'm kind of the same way where it's like, I'd rather— clearly I think a lot of most people would, there's just a lot of dangers behind it. It's like you'd rather go and see a movie. and get immersed in the movie itself to understand a story. And so it's similar to that. And then I usually, um, there's times where like I don't feel like doing that anymore. I feel like I've become very in tune with my body, which sounds weird. Hmm. I've become very in tune with like, I'm watching this too much. Like I'm gonna take a few nights and I'm literally just gonna go into my room and read for an hour before bed. And so I'm very aware of that. I don't talk about it too much because I know how it can be spun. And I know that there were times in my life where I shouldn't have been doing that because I could have been making progress in the areas where I was trying to make progress. Same with video games. Like, I don't play video games much anymore. There's definitely periods, like when the new Call of Duty came out, I played that for like a month, and then I quickly realized like, I'm not making fucking progress. Right. this out immediately. And so did that. But yeah, when it's like 7 to 9, the only thing that I am worried about is blue light. But then again, I've found like studies that argue the opposite point. As with everything, it's like,

yeah,

I don't know. That's the one downfall I'm okay with because I've really— I've done both options. I've experimented and I don't notice a huge difference, but it could be compound. Who knows?

I try to just avoid destructive things. So what are, what are destructive evening activities? It's scrolling Instagram for doom scrolling. It's eating right up close to bedtime, things like that that I know. But I was big on the wear a Whoop, track my sleep. Once I got those fundamentals down, I stopped wearing my Whoop like 6 months ago and I haven't been tired in 6 months.

Yeah, I know. That's the funny thing, right?

Seriously, I have not woken up one time like, man, I'm tired today. Whereas for a while, I was like, wake up, ignore bodily feeling, check Whoop score.

Yep.

Red, better take it easy today.

I'm tired.

You know, it was a horrible habit to get into. It was good to get the feedback loop of what led to certain things. But now I've gotten away with it or done away with it. And I seriously have not woken up I have too much to build to be tired. And that is where I've tried to be is I had to gain that level of awareness. It played its role. Now, don't tip too far down that of like, if I don't have my blue light blocking glasses on an hour before bed and I'm looking at this, then that means I'm gonna be tired tomorrow. Then I'm tired tomorrow, which means I need more caffeine. And if I have more caffeine, that's—

Yeah.

That is the destructive, self-improvement game that is— I have fallen victim to 100%, where you, you listen to too many people's opinions of what you should be doing until— and you like completely forget that it's all about how you feel.

Yeah, dude, it's the weirdest thing where like not too many people talk about it because you kind of have to go through that wringer where it's like you make the mistakes yourself. Um, but I've Recently went to like a big party, like quote unquote party with like a bunch of entrepreneurs. Mm-hmm. And like talking to all of them, there was like, there was like some that were just passed out drunk. Like some of the biggest players that I know just passed out drunk. There was others who were like, it was weird like seeing these high performers, genuine high performers, that can put out and seem to have an enjoyable life, like doing things like that. It was somewhat refreshing where, I don't know, like it's—

It breaks your frame.

It does. It breaks your frame and it makes you think like, okay, this guy can do this. Like, what's going on here? They're just conscious. They make conscious decisions and they know themselves to the point where it's like, if I'm not making progress, I'm changing something. And it doesn't matter how painful that's gonna be, it's done. Like, it's already a decision, it's made, right? With the games, it wasn't even a struggle. Like, when I played Call of Duty for a month, like, it was fun, but then, like, after it, I was like, oh my God, like, I have 30 minutes to get into bed. I have to do this, I have to do this. Like, just trapped in that thought loop. Mm-hmm. And, like, one day I was just like, no, it's done. Like, this isn't worth it for the lifestyle I have.

It's all self-awareness all the way down.

It is.

You have to develop that.

It's like the Alan Watts thing as well, where like he— well, it's like a bunch of them. Like, you, you actually— when you actually read into the like stories of these people that we praise all the time, like Marcus Aurelius, the philosophers, whatever it may be, the leaders, like What's his name? Like Alexander the Great. Like read their actual backstory and learn what kind of person they were. And you'll realize like that the frame that they're promoted from is like a highlight reel. Like we all talk about how to not get sucked into because it just gives you false expectations. And you realize that everyone's human and that it's really just a matter of making beneficial choices and self-correcting them over time.

And I think it's important for people watching to see that with us.

Yeah,

because it's easy to look at.

That's why I'm becoming like more okay with like— but that, that was a— that's another problem that I don't want to happen is like if I say I go out and have drinks and I talk— I keep talking about that because I want to talk about it more, then I just sound like an alcoholic,

right?

Right. Or if I say like, uh, I go to music festivals— I love raves, right? I love raves and I'll go every like 3 months when a big one happens, which is like a weekend out of the year. But if I keep talking about them as like, that's my hobby, then I just sound like a druggy raver, right? And so I have to be very careful with the picture I paint. But at the same time, I want to get the point across like, hey, you can do these things. Like, you can— you don't have to close yourself off to any aspect of reality. Yeah.

It's all reminders to yourself too. Yeah. Because there was probably a time where you thought, I wouldn't— I'll never do those things again if I want to be productive.

Yeah. And it threatens— like, when you set a big goal, you may not want to follow through with it because it may threaten, like, what you currently enjoy doing in your life, right? Where it's like, if I'm going to build this software, I'm gonna be, I'm gonna like, I'm not gonna be able to go to music festivals anymore. I know it's gonna come to like an end at some point. Mm-hmm. But I'm enjoying them right now. And it's like, if I were scared that like I wouldn't be able to go to one because of whatever I'd have to do for the software business, then that may impact how I build or if I build the software business, right? When you can, like that's the entire fun is to treat all of these little things as Legos in your lifestyle. And slowly take pieces out here and there and learn from your mistakes.

You can only focus on, I think, 3 things at any given time, 3 kind of larger picture goals. I've been very aware of that and started to see evidence that anytime I have more than 3 things on a day, on a week, on a 6-month horizon— so every time I slot something in now, I'm thinking, What am I removing to add that thing in?

Yeah.

And that's on a daily basis. If I'm choosing to do more than 3, obviously I'm doing more than 3 things in a day, but figuring out what those, at what cost, what am I willing to do, what am I willing to not do, or what am I willing to sacrifice to add this new thing in? And instead of just trying to add, I've fallen guilty for adding more and more and more in. And then I'm never saying, okay, as I do this, what is that? What am I sacrificing to get that? And being extremely aware of those. And it goes back to the current priorities of physical fitness and financial foundation. That is likely at the expense of pursuing relationships right now.

Yeah.

Or all those other, traveling as much as I'd eventually like to, or starting these various hobbies that I know I can get to in the future and keeping that perspective of not now, but not, not never, but not now.

Yeah.

And how I remember that is I'm gonna be able to build anything I want, but not everything and only a couple things at a time.

Yep.

Extending the time horizon and saying, yes, I will get to that eventually, but right now in this season, not quite.

Yeah. I love that. Should we wrap it up?

Dude, this has been fun.

That was good.

3 hours.

If you made it this long, props to you.

Leave a comment, let us know. I mean,

here, what can they comment? The Mountain Valley Spring Water if you made it this far.

Just comment Mountain Valley.

Yeah,

Mountain Valley if you've made it this far. But what I want to make sure people do with this is if anything stuck out, think about it, distill it.

And create with it. That's what I'm so big on, man, is like, I love that. Like, I don't like plagiarism, clearly. I like people building on the ideas, like, like using them in your life and like plugging them into your own perspective and then building from there. That's what we're all doing with like books. Like in my book, I preface, I'm proud of this, where it's like, use these, like build with the ideas, take them. Like if you wanna write a chapter on, if you wanna write a book on one of the chapters that I did and like feel free, build with it. Just don't like take it and avoid what results in your own lessons or perspective with it.

The worst thing someone could do is watch this full 3 hours and feel productive because of it and do nothing with it. Because then it's just— might as well have wasted 3 hours.

Everything is awareness. Like, even everything you see online, all information is just awareness until you execute and, like, make it real. Even the most actionable advice in the world, it's still awareness. It's like, okay, now I know that that thing exists. Let me go and do it. And then it's real.

So anyone listening still, still watching, 10 takeaways from this. If that was the least, like the lowest level thing you did was just write, hey, here are 10 things I've— one thing, start with one because that makes it real. That makes your effort stored in some way, your attention stored in some way. Yeah. Anytime I'm listening to a podcast now, I have to leave with 3 takeaways. Otherwise, it was just, I might as well just been listening to music or junk food or whatever. But now it's, okay, I have a lens, I have to take 3 things away. So hopefully anyone watching at this point has got some good stuff. We need to get another one of these on the books for a year, 2 years, 6 months. Should we do more of these? I think people are gonna like these.

Yeah, I feel like we need to, like, I wanna have a rotation of like 4 people and just do it every single year. It'd be like you, Joey, Justin Scott, someone else.

Yeah.

And then just do those where that— because that's the other thing, going back to the very beginning where we followed specific YouTubers, they had their little tribe, like, of like the shared goal, the shared perspective, the thing that people want to hear more of. And I feel like that's kind of one pitfall of a lot of podcasts is that They branch out into too many different domains. Not that it's like an overall bad thing, but it can be made better if you just follow one person's journey or like a community of people's journey over time.

And selfishly, I want to have a series that we can look back on and find. That was why this was a priority to get this one done, because otherwise, like, we have one on my channel and I have one on yours from about a year ago.

Yeah.

Right. I think 20— it was October '21 I was on yours and maybe June '22 last year-ish. And people can watch those and then watch this and then they'll watch the next one and say, okay, these guys that I look up to didn't just happen here. We're documenting. And so that was the goal with this. I think we covered a ton. I can't wait to relisten, talk through some of these, think about them. Write about them. I want to just—that's my goal—is I'm going to say what did I learn from you in this episode? That's going to be my goal with it. So that's all we got. Thanks, man. Hell yeah!

Like, subscribe, share.

There you go.

Peace. Boom.

That was fun, man.

Damn, how long was that? You think we definitely surpassed three hours.

Yeah,

I wanted to, I wanted to hit that 3-hour mark because it's like a— Yeah. Oh

yeah,

we definitely did.