Cum scapi de RUȘINE | BOABE DE CUNOAȘTERE | cu David Bedrick
Interview (YouTube podcast) with psychologist/researcher David Bedrick about shame. Bedrick proposes defining shame not as a discrete feeling but as a viewpoint of the self that declares “something's wrong with me,” often formed when children are hurt (abuse) and invalidated (e.g., caregivers denying the hurt). He contrasts shame with guilt (guilt = a critic one can notice and defend against; shame = when the critic is believed or unrecognized), describes somatic effects (tension, cramps, freezing), and explains therapeutic strategies he calls 'unshaming'—speaking the internal critic aloud, role-play and somatic expression, witnessing and repair, and building supportive micro-communities (e.g., pride, mattering) to counter cultural shaming. Clinical examples include money/body-image shame, chronic illness dismissal, parenting and redirected anger, sexual abuse and institutional silence, and strategies for reclaiming impulses (anger, creativity) for constructive use.
Chapters
Everybody has certain amounts of shame, but shame hides things from ourselves.
I was thinking why that happens.
Yeah. What is this thing we're talking about? That's a very simple thing to say. But if you read the best people on shame, they won't ever say that what it actually is. Am I allowed to ask for the amount of money that I think I deserve? Oh, am I greedy? What's wrong with me? Why aren't I productive? I should be doing something about that. I should have more coffee. I should sleep better. See, you're trying to correct that. Many people have shame about their bodies. My stomach should be thinner. Shouldn't be. I shouldn't be balding. What's wrong with me that I'm like this? Then they want to hide their bodies because what lives inside people's heads is not small.
What's the difference between guilt and shame?
Okay, I can tell you that didn't happen. You're making things up. Why are you so sensitive? If I don't know I have power in defending myself to that critic. I will go out in the world and people will put me down. And I won't defend myself there either.
What is shame, basically? What is that as emotion?
Shame psychologically is foreign.
David bedrick. David bedrick. David, Yesterday, professor autor conciliar avocadi fundatoro santa fe institute for shame based studies. The inner mapping inside. The inner mapping inside the esteem experience. The exploraria study the B Personala. Welcome.
Thank you to the podcast.
Our podcast is named bobe, which means seeds of knowledge.
Seeds of knowledge. I love that.
So we just spread little seeds, and if somebody needs them, they just take them. They put them inside and they grow, if they can.
Beautiful.
Yeah. We talk about shame.
Yeah.
Are you ashamed nowadays of anything?
Yes. Everybody has certain amounts of shame. Because one of the things that shame does is it not only hides myself from another. Right. I don't want to show you my naked self, so to speak, physically or. Right. But shame hides things from ourselves. So there are things I'm less aware of, and as I learn about those, then I become less shame. But a lot of shame impacts us by us not knowing ourselves. So I had a lot of shame in my life. That changes over time about money. Am I allowed to ask for the amount of money that I think I deserve? Whoa, am I greedy? That would be a thought I would have. Right? And then that thought, am I greedy? I don't want to look greedy by asking for a lot of money. I'm saying that in an animated way, because that's a part of me. That part has some shame around it. It doesn't say, this is what I charge, this is what I'm worth. I'm happy to do free work, but to be more confident about that. So I have some shame around money or that may.
That can translate in. I, I will not do things for free because I'm ashamed. People will think that I don't worth something, right?
It. It could be if a person, if a person wanted to do something for free, but they thought I better not do it, there might be shame. Does that make sense?
So, yeah. So what is shame basically? What, what, what is that as emotion?
It's a really good question. Many people define shame as a feeling only. And that definition is not very useful. That definition is a moral definition. It comes from Judeo Christian viewpoints. I should be ashamed because I'm a bad person, I've done something bad, I hurt you, and I should be ashamed of that if it was misright, if I shouldn't have done that. But psychologically, that's a moral idea, right? Psychologically, shame is not like that. Shame psychologically is a viewpoint of oneself that says, something's wrong with me. It's not a feeling, it's a viewpoint. So I look at myself. That's a bad way to be. It creates feelings. But the viewpoint itself is not only feelings, it's a way of looking at myself.
How does shame take root into ourselves?
It's a really good question. It's a very important question, actually, because I've studied that exact question.
Okay?
So I know how that happens empirically speaking, meaning not just an idea, but I've studied it and here's how it happens. When a person is younger and they're hurt, we would often call that abused. I'm hurt by somebody I can't defend myself against. Okay? Right. I'm not just falling down. I could hurt, Right? But let's say my father's a bigger person, I'm a smaller person, right? In my. Let me give you an example. It'd probably be better. Yeah. When I was young, I had a father who used fists and belts to express his anger, right? Not only as punishment. Not that that would be okay, but he was like, come home angry, right? So then I get abused by that. I get hurt. Then in my family, I have a mother, and here's her role in that system. She says, that didn't happen. You're making things up. Why are you so sensitive? Does that make sense?
Yeah.
So now I internalize that mother. That means I start thinking, did I do something wrong? Why? Am I too dramatic? Am I making this up? Did that really happen? Instead of thinking, ow, this father hurt me, this father abused me. However, I would say that. But I don't have a story in my mind of being hurt by somebody. I have a story in my mind of why am I so messed up? How come I make things up? Why do I do things that deserve to be belted? Yeah, that idea is shame.
Okay?
That's what's wrong with me. I don't believe I have a story. I believe I messed up.
I am inappropriate.
Yeah. Yeah.
Okay. So do you have any other examples for shame that we can use? Like nowadays, as we are adults and there's not a father to hurt us.
Right?
Yeah, but what other situations can create shame? When we feel something and people or society says, no, you're wrong, you are wrong, we are okay, that's right. There's nothing wrong with us.
That's right. And yeah, if you. There's many areas, the area of chronic physical symptoms. Many people have chronic pain and Lyme disease and inflammatory diseases, but many people in the medical community say those don't. That doesn't exist.
Okay. Yeah, that's right. Yeah.
So then that person says, I have all these symptoms. And then there's a medical community that says, you're making that up. You're not hurting from your body. You have something wrong with your psychology. Something's wrong with you. Not. And then that person thinks, why am I screwed up? What's wrong with me? So instead of thinking, I need help, I need to find someone who understands why I'm getting migraines, for instance. Nobody can understand my migraines. I'm messed up. I'm screwed up person. Something's wrong with me. And that idea that something's wrong with me comes from that culture. And then that person begins to be ashamed. So then they're not going to want to tell you about the symptoms they have. I have this, I have that, I have Lymes, I have inflammation, I have autoimmunes. People don't want to talk about some of those things. So that would be an area. And then many people have shame about their bodies. My stomach should be thinner, but I shouldn't be gray, I shouldn't be balding. My breasts should look like a 20 year old. Perky. Right. I shouldn't have those kinds of things. So. And then people think, oh, I have to hide that. What's wrong with me? Am I not doing it right? Do I not look young? Am I not eating right? What's wrong with me that I'm like this? So then they want to hide their bodies to make their bodies look whatever, younger, thinner, etc. So many people have shame about their bodies. And rather than think, what am I doing? How should I address that? They think I'm a bad person. I'm undisciplined, I'm not doing it right. Yeah.
And I would like to ask you, how does this shame affect us? But before that, I want to ask.
Yeah.
You said we are a lot of the times we are ashamed of things that we hide from ourselves.
Yes. Yeah.
What can be those things? Or how to. How to identify them? Do we search for these things? Do we. Or do we search for the shame? Feeling that we have to search for these things we hide from ourselves different ways.
Some people know that they have certain experiences, but they're against them. For instance, I say, I get so angry all the time. Help me not be angry.
Okay.
Right. So that would be an example. So I'm against my anger. Does that make sense?
Yeah. Okay. Because you don't like your anger.
I don't like my anger. So rather than say, I don't know what to do with this big fiery energy in me. I don't want to hurt anybody, but maybe I need it. Maybe I needed to finish writing my book. Maybe I need some power or some force that lives in me. Maybe I need to set boundaries. Maybe I need to tell people, I don't like the way you're treating me. I need a little oomph, a little fire. But I don't have those capacities. Instead, I think all those powers in me are anger. I should put them away. They're bad about me. So then I walk around kind of going, I'm nice all the time because I put away my anger. Again, the anger itself is not only good, but if it's. If it's looked at properly, it can be a very useful energy.
So you kind of get like, this is an example when you can get ashamed of your energy. Right. And you hide it.
That's right. That's right. And many people are like that. I want to look even and balanced. Some people say, I want to be balanced. And I say, what do you mean by balanced? And they say, well, sometimes I get so intense and I spend two days doing something. What do you do for two days? I'm writing a book. And then. And then I crash. I said, so maybe that's a creative style. It could be. It could Be a creative wave. I have a big wave of energy and then I collapse. No, no, no. I should be all even equanimous. I should be a meditating, even minded thing. But some people are creative and they have big ups and downs. So in that case the person would be shaming their intensity. I go up and I go down. No, no, no. I should be level. But they may never look like an even balance. They may look like high energies and then rest. And those high energies could happen over a day or two. That can happen over months. Yeah.
I had actually I had this problem like few years ago because that is my pattern. I just, I have days when I'm so energic and I y. Write things and I film things and they have ideas and then I just crash.
That's right.
And, and I was really thinking what's wrong with myself?
Right.
How can I, how, how can I reach that balance?
Right. Right.
And then I, I, I talked with my shrink. My, my therapist.
Yeah.
And he just said look, that's how you work. Just embrace that and just, I just make sure that in those days with full of energy I don't over consume myself.
Yeah.
And then just, I know that there's gonna be like resting days, let's say, when I just let everybody know, like this is not my best days. I, I just, I'm just, this is how I am. But I still think about them as not my best days.
Interesting.
You know.
See, I would think, this is how I would think about that. If you said, David, I do have those waves of energy.
Yeah.
But a part of me thinks that's not my best.
Yeah.
I would say can you make an argument just for one moment that that's the best way to be and you love it and give it a try. Let's say you, let's say you were. I said to you, convince me just for a moment. I know you don't only think that, but convince me that that's the best way of living. It's exciting. It's really you.
Well, I kind of find, I found some things that are like the best things in this moment. Because if I would have this great energy all the time, I would miss those moments when I just go in the park doing nothing, just walking. And I. This may sound silly, but I love watching. Yeah. Lifts. I just take them and they're so beautiful. And these are my moments that I think about them. They are not the best, but they really, they make space for new ideas.
That's gorgeous. So, so even in that example you're telling me something new. We started off with that's not my best. And now you're telling me that. David, there's a kind of a beauty in the leaves that I find. Can't you find that another way? I don't know. He finds it this way. Like, can a bat fly during the day instead of night? They don't. Why don't we think that that's nature, that's part of your nature, that you have a nature that looks that way, and then the more you open to that, then you think, oh, I look for beauty these ways, and then I find this thing in that ways, and then I become one way. And once. That's why I was saying make an argument, because I knew that wasn't going to be only a false argument. Because when I ask people that, they start saying things they hadn't said before, they don't say, well, I used to go. I go up, but then I come down and I find the beauty in the leaves. That's that. Before this, you didn't say that. You said, I just go down. But now you're adding beauty. And if it kept going, you would talk. You would talk about the highs and that intensity, and you would talk about the creative moments. So in a sense, we take that whole flow of your nature, the seasons of your nature, and we turn it into something wrong with that. Take a supplement that brings you up, take a supplement that brings you down. Exercise. So you're this way. Do something. Let's add things to your life that. That try to balance you out. All of which don't understand the leaves and the beauty and the. We wipe all that out. Then you become a normalized, socialized person. But not a very interesting you.
Yeah.
You're no longer you. You're something created. Yeah.
That's so nice.
You smile when I say that. Yeah. Yeah.
That's cool.
Yeah.
You know, actually, when I had these moments of. Of downs, let's still call them downs, but we can agree it's not necessarily something bad.
Yeah.
Yeah, I felt guilt.
That's right.
I felt guilty that I'm not so productive anymore in those days.
That's right.
And what was the difference between guilt and shame?
Okay. I can tell you. Guilt that you're describing says you have what I call an inner critic. Something lives inside of you and says, you're not being productive. You should be more productive. Yeah, something like that. Yeah, that's like. That's like a criticism that you've internalized somewhere in your life. Your parents or the culture or whatever, or your profession says, this is productive time. Looking at leaves is not productive time. Right? Something like that. Right. So this is productive. That alone doesn't create shame. That alone is a criticism. So if you said to me, sometimes I just criticize myself because I'm not productive, it still may feel lousy, but no shame. Here's where shame enters. If you don't know that's a criticism, and you're just thinking, what's wrong with me? Why aren't I productive? I should be doing something about that. I should have more coffee. I should sleep better. You see, you're trying to correct.
Okay.
Right. If I said, you're an idiot, then you would say, screw you. I'm not an idiot. But if you had shame and I said, you're an idiot, you would think, why am I such an idiot? One would be nasty. You might say, that hurts, David. I don't like when you talk to me that way. No shame. Just. Just don't like me. Yeah, but if you. If you took it in and believe it, and you start thinking, what did I do wrong? I always do this. Whenever I talk to people, they say this about me. Now you're in a state of mind that's looking for what's wrong with you. You're trying to diagnose yourself. That's shame operating. And you can spend forever in that cycle of, why don't I do this? I should do that. I'm. Et cetera, go to my therapist to make myself a better person.
Yeah. So. So if feeling the guilt is not. Is not that bad as feeling the shame. Yeah. The guilt is like, I. I know I have a critic inside of me, and I hear it. Hear it. And I may be feeling guilty, but the shame is when I believe the critics.
You believe the critic. Or. Or you don't notice it at all.
Okay.
You just walk around kind of going, I'm just not productive today. I haven't been productive for three days. And you're just, like, lost in that. I'll give you an. Give you an example with that. If I were you and you were criticizing me, I'm you, and you're criticizing me for not being productive, what would you say to me?
You're wasting your time and you're not doing what you. You're supposed to do.
Keep going. Give it to me harder. Give me a punch.
Okay. You're such a lazy person, and you don't have any ambition, and you don't have any structure and discipline, and you're. Yeah. You're. You're such a stupid boy that just sits right all the day.
I'm lazy and not ambitious.
Yeah.
So? So there's two things. One, if I said those words to you right, you're smiling. Okay. I'm gonna say those words to you. Yeah. Okay. And notice what happened. Notice what it feels like. Forget about what, fighting me back. Because. Yeah, because I'm not serious. Right. Yeah. Yeah. But notice what it feels like, especially in your body. Notice. I'm gonna say those words, and your job is to notice what happens to you when I say them. Do you get tense? Do you. Whatever happens to you.
Okay.
Okay. You ready?
Yeah.
You're not being ambitious enough. You're lazy. You know it. You're not productive. What starts to happen?
Well, I have mixed. Mixed feelings.
Yeah. Tell me the mix.
Yeah, it hurts a little bit, right? And more than a little bit. I kind of know. Don't believe you. I don't believe what you say.
Great. Great. There's a hurt that's important to know. Both parts are important to know. It's important to know it hurts because some people have a critic going on all the time, and it hurts. They're in pain. Emotional pain. Some people somatize those pains, meaning they'll start getting cramps, they'll start getting stomach aches. I'm not saying all cramps and stomachaches come from that. But people are in pain. And if they felt their bodies, they might say, oh, I get like a pain. And they might hold. They might put their hand on their belly. Yeah. They might kind of go, I'm in pain. And they might cover up, meaning even their body is saying, yeah, you're thinking something.
Yeah. I mean. I mean, you can have a constant critique that you believe or you don't even notice.
Yes.
And you feel ashamed. And that hurts physically in your body.
It hurts physically in the body. It's always. It's always in the body because anytime you have a critic, you're going to feel something. You're going to go, oh, I felt like a tension, like I wanted to stand against you, or I felt like I wanted to fall over. So the body is still responding. It's just that people don't usually think of those as physical symptoms, but they can be. So if I did that. So the second part of what you said was. And I don't only agree. Yeah, okay, go ahead and disagree with me as forcefully as you would ever imagine doing. Go ahead. You're lazy. You're not productive.
Well, I spend like all of my time doing my work. And I have a structure and I have a to do list which I usually fulfill all of it's not good enough things.
You were yesterday, you didn't do anything, and then you didn't do anything for two days. And that's just not okay. You're smiling, you're good. Keep going. Don't let me win this argument. Okay.
Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yesterday I had a full agenda and I completed it. And yeah, I think that there's. There's no more time for me to do more things than I am doing right now.
Right. And now what's important about this conversation is you're defending yourself.
Yeah.
So many people are not defending themselves. Right. If somebody hurts somebody, okay, you should be able to defend yourself.
Yeah.
It should be free. Right. If I say, if I say to you, I don't know you very well, but I wouldn't. If I start criticizing you, I would defend. Yeah, it would feel it should be appropriate. If I want to punch you, it should be appropriate for you to run away or put up your hands or punch me back.
Yeah.
Right. But this violence is happening inside and people don't defend themselves. And then they. Then things go in, and then not only the critic goes in, but they start walking around kind of with pain and feeling hunched over, feeling depressed, and they don't know why that shame. Okay, now I just feel shitty. Is that okay to say? All day long. But I don't think I'm getting beaten up. Right. If you hit me up on the street, I would think I'd come over and say, somebody beat me up, I'd be, no shame, I'm just hurting. But if I walked around and said, I'm just a screwed up person and I didn't tell you somebody beat me up, why am I so bruised? How come I have my face is all hurting? You'd say, david, somebody punched you. Yeah, but inside people don't notice. I just walk around thinking, what's wrong with me? Why is this happening?
How can people learn to defend themselves from their own critics? Does it come from the childhood when we had no defense and we just accept that we cannot defense right now?
Most of it, it comes, most of it comes from childhood with family or the culture. Right.
Okay.
The way people learn to defend themselves is by having somebody who witnesses them when they get hurt. For instance, if you're a child and I smack you and somebody else says, you just smacked that person. How are you doing, Mihail? Am I saying your name? Yeah. How you doing? Mihal, are you okay? Do you need something? Next time David hits you, I'm gonna protect you, or I care about your pain, no shame will enter. You'll think, I'm worthy of being cared about.
Okay.
But if nobody sees, or if somebody says, well, you deserved it. Like my mother, right? You deserved it. That was nothing. So what? There's a big black and blue mark on your face, right? Right. Then you don't learn to defend yourself. Instead you think, why am I like this?
Yeah.
So. So one way people. So that's the early story. Then one way people learn to not have shame around those is to do exactly what it did with you. Say those criticisms out loud, okay? Make them strong enough. Don't just say, I'm lazy, go for it. Because what lives inside people's heads is not small. It's usually like, you lazy piece of shit, I can't believe we're in it. It's got a lot more guts and toxicity to it. So people need to hear it. Oh, that's what's going on inside me. That's intense.
And then you go and defend.
And then they should learn to defend themselves so they can hear, oh, I have this. Even if it's to say, that hurts. Oh, or I want to hit you back, or I want to scream at you, or my stomach gets tense, or I just sat up, or my shoulders went up, right? Yeah. That means I'm like ready to fight. So I know there's something in me, that I have some power in me. If I don't know I have power in defending myself to that critic. I will go out in the world and people will put me down and I won't defend myself there either. I'll go do a talk tomorrow, right? You did a talk today. I'll go do a talk tomorrow. And let's say somebody said, david, that was the worst talk I've ever heard. Yeah, Right. If nothing in me defends myself inside, whether I do that to that person or not, it's up to me. I can say to that person, you're wrong. But inside, I'm going to have to be able to defend myself. If I can't, then I'm going to. Right. I'm sitting up straight now. Otherwise I'd be like, oh, man. And I'm going to look around. Oh, I can't believe. And I'm going to be in a bad state. I'm going to be up all night. What should I have done? What did I do wrong? And in that spinning, right, what I do I shouldn't have done this. I should have done that. Maybe I should have slept better. I shouldn't have eaten the. Drinking coffee. I'm going to self. I'm going to analyze myself to figure out what happened rather than feel a defense coming up in me. If I don't have that defense, I won't even remember that somebody criticized me. I'll just remember how bad our job. I did.
Yeah.
Isn't that wild? Yeah.
So let me repeat that and tell me if I understood that. Well, so if you feel ashamed of yourself.
Yes.
The. The thing you need to do it is to find what the shame is hiding from yourself. And so the good exercise is to hear the critic, to speak it out loud to yourself. Maybe in the mirror or whatever.
Out loud is better. If people do just in their heads, they don't hear it.
Okay, so out loud.
Because then your ears hear it, right? Yeah, yeah.
There's actually other circuits in the brain that activates when you speak it out.
Amazing.
The same is when you write things on a paper.
Yes.
There's different circuits that are integrating the. The. Are integrating the information in the brain. So we speak it out loud.
Yes.
The. The critics. Yeah, you're lazy. You're. You're such a stupid. Yeah, yeah. And then we defend ourselves out loud.
Yes.
So we exercise the, the. The defending of.
Yes. It's like a dojo. It's like a martial arts studio. Right?
Yeah.
Now I'm going to practice, Right. I mean, I'm gonna throw my left punch and you're gonna block. Right. And you're gonna practice that. So people practice, they develop inner strengths. Yes.
I have a question that I don't know if it makes sense anymore because like how you described it is completely like a new way of defining shame.
I'm gonna say one thing. It's really important to define it differently because the old way of defining it, shame is a failing. When I'm a feeling of me doing a bad thing.
Yeah.
We'll never discuss this inner criticism. It doesn't discuss. Discuss early trauma, which is when these things go in, it doesn't tell you what to do about it. There's ideas and there's things you can do about it. For instance, work on the inner critic and other kinds of things. So the old definition doesn't understand what you and I would call ideology. Where does it come from? We don't know. What do you do about it? We don't know. How does it live inside? People who write about shame, they don't define the Basic science of it. Where did it come from? What do you do about it? How do you change it? They literally don't do that. And they get very confused kind of definitions. Well, it's like this. It's like guilt, but they can't. But it's. It's not. It's its own thing and it has its own power. So it's very important to be. For me, I'm a scientist in that way. What is this thing we're talking about? That's a very simple thing to say. But if you read the best people on shame, they won't ever say that. What it actually is. They say, well, let me give you an example. And they'll tell examples that don't look different than guilt.
That's a very good point.
Yeah.
And, yeah, the question that I think doesn't have meaning right now, but I still want to. Want to ask you, is there. How would you define toxic shame and healthy shame? Is there such things as toxic shame, like bad shame and good shame?
Yeah. So here we go back to the definitional problem.
Yeah.
If you stay with the idea that shame is a feeling that comes when I've done bad things and sometimes I really have done bad things. Yeah, exactly. Hurt people. I've hurt my wife, not my. Physically. Right. I've hurt her feelings. And it was wrong for me to do that. Yeah, Right. And I felt like, oh, and when I realized it. Or that shame.
That's not.
That's not shame. That I call that remorse. I call that accountability. I call that compassion for someone I love. I call that empathy. I call that wanting to make amends. Oh, I'm sorry. Actually, I realized I did something and that was not. Okay, that's clear. And there's no reason to put the word shame in there. Why did the word shame come in there?
Why?
I'm going to answer that question. I can tell you, because people had an original idea. The word shame was immoral notion. I've done bad. Right. Like a biblical notion. I'm a bad. I've done bad. And then when psychology came along and started talking about shame, then many of the people researching it started saying, you know what? This shame is not only a good thing, a lot of it looks really bad and hurting people. So then the people who loved the immoral notion said, well, there's got to be some good. Let's break it into two different things, toxic shame and healthy shame. Yeah, it got more confusing. Yeah, it is. It was like, let me save my moral idea and for me, throw out the whole thing and define it clearly. Shame is a way of looking at oneself that pathologizes. It looks at you as if something's wrong with you that needs to be fixed. It's never useful to have that idea. Never. Absolutely never is it useful for you to know, I've hurt somebody and I feel bad and remorse and I want to make amends and I want them accountable. Absolutely.
But that's not shame.
That's not shame.
Yeah. You know, that makes so much sense, because when you don't have the proper definition of a shame, as you just offered us, then the shame, if you like. You know, a lot of things that we hear nowadays is like, the shame is one of the worst feelings you can have.
Yes.
So if you don't have the proper definition of the shame you start to feel, and a lot of people are doing that, you feel, you think, look, then I. If shame is unhealthy, I should feel no shame at all. And they go, they are losing, actually the accountability.
That's right.
They think, okay, if shame is bad, then I have to not feel shame, which is that kind of guilt that you did something bad.
Yeah.
And they say, like, okay, then that means I can do whatever I want. Yeah.
The shame isn't healthy, which is crazy. It's not. That's not the idea at all. Yeah. But the idea is if you've done something right, if you've hurt my feelings inappropriately and, you know, like. And I didn't deserve that, then I would hope that you have feelings, remorse, care. I'm sorry, David. I didn't mean that. Or can I make it up to you? I hope that you feel that if you felt some remorse or some care or some empathy or some accountability, and you said, david, I'm going to call you up. I said some things during the podcast. I think they were. Could have hurt your feelings. It matters to me. I'm touched. If you have shame about that, you will think I'm a bad person. What's wrong with me? You will not be in touch with your empathy. You will not be in touch with your remorse. The only thing you'll be in touch with is, how do I get out of feeling so bad about myself? That's not about me. You know what I'm saying? That's not about. You're not caring for me. If you're just saying, I just want. I'm sorry, make me feel better. That's not about caring about David. I want you to care about me. Does that make sense? That's different. Caring about me is not. Doesn't come from shame. Shame puts you out of touch with your feelings. It makes you narcissistic in a way. Then I want to apologize. I want to apologize. I'm really sorry because I want to feel better about myself, not because I really care about the fact that I injured you in some way or mistreated you in some way.
Yes. It's so important to keep in touch with your feelings, to feel bad if you did something bad. Come back and apologize if you feel you hurt somebody.
Yeah.
This is healthy.
Yeah.
But it's unhealthy to feel ashamed. Meaning that thinking that something wrong with you and you want to escape the feelings.
Let me give you a radical. A radical example.
Yeah.
Okay. I had a client, a man, who says, I need help because I hit my child inappropriately. Now, is there ever appropriate hitting? That's a whole discussion. Right? But. But this person was doing something inappropriate. He shouldn't have hit his child. And he said, I. I feel terrible about this. I said, great, let's talk about your feelings. How are you going to repair that relationship? And let's figure out ways for you to not use your hands in a fist with a small person. That's not okay. We understand that. I'm going to help him not do that. Here's the unshaming part. I call it unshaming. I say, now your child's not here. Right? Right. You can't hurt your child right now. Right? Yeah. You hit him with a fist? Yeah. Can you show me the fist? It's bad. No, no, no. He's not going to get hurt right now. Can you show me the fist? Right. Then that person would say, if they were. If they were less, they're too shame. They'd be like, no, no, no, no, no. That's not helpful. Because they don't understand that fist yet. They just think I'm gonna suppress it. So I don't have that. That's not gonna work.
Okay.
Suppressing it means I'm gonna get angry, I'm gonna have her drink, and then it's gonna burst out again. That's not sustainable solution. I want to know that fist. Take out your fist. Let's see it. Let's get to know it. Take the shame away from the fist too. That doesn't mean use it. Not at all. Take it now. Show it to me. Okay. How did you hit your child? Did you punch them? Did you smack them this way? I want to know every detail. I want that person to become fully aware not to make them feel bad. I want them to know themselves. And they kind of. And I say, go ahead, keep using that fist. And they bang on a table like this, I say, keep going and tell me where you need that. I put up with my boss every damn day. I can't stand it. Oh, you need some of that fist. You don't tell your boss, but you take it out on your child. Yeah, maybe you shouldn't be working there. Maybe you need a fist to give up that job. Maybe you need to speak back at work. The fist. There was nothing wrong with the fist, okay? They just didn't know what to do with it. They didn't own or accept their fist and say, what am I going to do with the fist? Not use it against the child. But if we unshame it, they might actually learn. I may need this fist somewhere. I need this energy somehow. If you don't know it, if it's hidden, if it's shamed, then it can go anywhere. It can be used. As my child, I could beat myself inside. I could hurt myself accidentally. I could over exercise with a boxing bag and bruise myself. Not so smart. But if I get to know it, you have to unshame it to get to know it, because shame keeps it hidden. I might find out I need a fist. I just don't know where. Now let me help you learn where to use that. So my job with that parent is stop, be clear about what's happening to the child, repair with the child. Now let me help you do something sustainable. So you know what to do with a fist, because you've got one. Let's figure out what to do with it.
Can you do that by yourself? Or you need a professional by your side to unveil that shame from the fist.
If it's a little bit shamed, you can do it by yourself. If you. If it's a lot shamed, meaning I'll play a person who's a lot shamed. It's really bad. I should never do that. Fists are always bad. You should never be angry. You should never hit anybody. I'm a bad, bad person. I'm a bad, bad person. That person is not going to be able to get anywhere by themselves because they're so thoroughly shamed about that fist that the only thing they'll do is to try to make it go away. And if you have power in you that you don't know what to do with, and many people have a lot of power in them that they don't know what to do with other than. Then the fist will be held down and it'll go. Come out when they have a drink or when they're too tired or whatever, when they're frustrated. And now all of a sudden, I'm misusing it. I'm a bad person. You're not a bad person. You should feel remorse for hurting people inappropriately. You should go to jail if it's really bad. Yes. And now what do you do with the energy that lives inside of you?
This is such a great perspective, David, because it's not anymore.
Yeah.
You're aggressive. You have to do something with your aggressivity.
Yes.
It's just. Look, this energy goes the wrong way.
Yes.
Let's see what you have to do. Actually. What is that energy for?
Yeah, it goes back to your laziness. You say, if I'm lazy and my energy goes down, I start looking at the leaves and how beautiful they are. Now, if I were to unshame you, I would say, can you become really, really lazy in the moment? And I would help you do that in your body. You might lay back or close your eyes. I don't know what you would do. Right.
Yeah.
But I would help you feel what you're calling lazy. Lazy is a shaming voice idea. You're not lazy. I can tell that about you plenty. You do do things that somebody calls lazy. Does that make sense? But that's not because you're lazy. It's. But then we don't understand that. So if we then took you into that. Let's imagine we had time.
Yeah.
And I said, go ahead, act lazy. And you, like, you know, you sat back and go ahead and move. Let's say, let's. You kind of go, oh, keep going. You kind of go, life is a dream, you know? And I would ask you more about that, and you would start showing me things about yourself that are really beautiful ways of living in addition to your ambitious self. Great. I'm glad you have that. Don't shame that. Keep on being ambitious. Make podcasts. Be a great doctor. Keep learning, bringing out your voice, changing people. Yes. And then there's somebody called lazy. Who is that? He's a nature person. He loves the leaves. Maybe he learns about medicine when he's watching the leaves make sense. Now he understands something. We've redeemed this thing called lazy, and it's no longer wrapped in the idea of lazy. It's wrapped in the idea of your flow, your creativity, how you're in touch with certain things that inform your medicine. Now it's part of your medicine. It's part of the ambition, even, right. How am I going to get good ideas about nature if I don't do what you're calling lazy? So now the whole idea of lazy is lifted. You can still decide not to do it, but we understand what you're actually doing.
And this is like. This is what you just described is the therapy for shame, right?
The therapy for shame. Get to know what's actually happening. Somebody says, I was working with a person recently. I do a lot of work about. On trauma, right? And somebody said to me, I have a lot of trauma. And I say, tell me what it's like, because I want to know what their experience is. Otherwise, they're just a bunch of words. Trauma these days is a very big word. If you say it, people say, oh, yeah, here's my. Here's what to do about it. We don't even know what's happening for them, right?
Yeah.
You know, it'd be like, let me hear. The person says, I freeze. That's a common trauma response, right? I freeze. I can't. I numb out. I don't know how to move. I get physically or mentally frozen. I can't speak. I can't get words. So then people would say, oh, you're freezing. That's a bad thing. Like an illness. Yeah. Like it's a symptom of an illness. I call that pathologizing. It's a pathology, this freezing. Let's give you medicine so you are not frozen. Yeah. Right. Let's work on your nervous system. Let's help you calm down so you can find yourself. Now I'm going to give you an unshaming approach. You're freezing. Show me what it's like to freeze. So the person. What do you mean, show me? Act like you're freezing right now. All the way. The person, their hands go up. You can see my shoulders are getting tight. And you can see my fingers start to move like this. Keep going. Freeze more. Why would I do more? Because I want you to feel and get to know this thing that we have a word for.
Yeah.
That's unchanged. Let's get to know it. Now look at me. This is what the person does. Now if you're looking at me, if people can't see my hands are shaking.
Yeah.
And I say, go ahead and keep shaking. The person starts doing like this. Keep going. Let yourself freeze all the way and shake. The person's like crazy with their fists, right? They have a lot of fight in them. They don't need relaxation. They need to. They need this. They say what's so good about being this way? If I'm this way, I would never freeze. Can you follow? So the medicine for their freezing for this person?
Not all. Yeah.
For this person's medicine is being able to. They got locked inside. They have a lot of fight that got locked up. They got hurt and they weren't free to punch back. That could happen. Right. If somebody's bigger than me, I might not be able to punch back because I might get hurt. If it's a police officer putting a gun to your head, you might sit there and say yes, officer. Right. And not curse. Right. You might. So the person doesn't isn't free to do that. But those feelings live in the body. For instance, all that fight might live in the body. So it's in there so the person can show it. And now I learn that that person needs more fight in them. How would we ever have known that if we calm that person down. Here's a nice music. Relax. They never find out that they have fight in them.
And what's the solution for this kind of person?
Learning where to use this? Where are you going to use that fight? Where do you need that? Every day I wake up and I have an inner critic back to that. That tells me I'm a piece of. I'm a piece of. I'm a piece of. Stand up and make some hand motions because that's what lives in you. Yeah. Or I'm living with a person who's abusive to me. Stand up to them. Should I punch them? I don't think so. Let's be careful. But. But you could also walk out the door. That's a kind of a punch. Does that make sense? I'm leaving. Yeah. That also could take a punch. You know, could use it. So that person is going to need this in their life. I needed it to get a degree. I never would have finished a law degree. I studied law. I would never finish a law degree if I didn't have a little punch in me. Because people made it hard on me. And I. Earlier on in my life I went for to get a degree I couldn't finish because once I was up against challenge, I shrunk. I'm not putting myself down. I just. I didn't have a lot. I wasn't in touch with much power then. I couldn't do certain things. I wouldn't have been able to write a book because finishing it means I have to push against things and people that are liking What? I said, so. Yeah.
How did you. So you first studied the law?
I first studied psychology.
First psychology. And then.
Then I went to law school because I was interested in social justice.
Okay.
And then I went back to psychology. I did both. I practiced law and taught psychology for a while.
But how do you. How did you go for studying the shame.
How.
How did it all started?
It started with a teacher of mine when I was 34. I'm 68 years old. When I was 34, I went to a workshop, and this man was doing a conference on working with physical symptoms. Long term, chronic symptoms. Yeah. So he. He would ask people who had symptoms to come forward. And he would show you his method. Yeah, there's like 100 people in a room watching. And this woman came forward who had cerebral palsy. Right, okay. Cerebral palsy means you probably know better than me, right, that she's not unintelligent, but she can't control the muscles in her body as easily. Right? Yeah. So she would say, hey, David, I'm not mimicking her. Right. Yeah. This is. This is how she spoke. And then she couldn't walk. Like, I can walk towards you. Like, one foot in front of the other. She would be off balance and kind of her body would do strange motions. Okay, okay. And he asked her something that was. I blew my mind. And he said, how did you learn to walk? You said, well, when I was young, I did physical therapy. I had to practice. Otherwise I would just fall over, move my foot, move my leg. I had to consciously think about, like, a walking meditation. I had to constantly think about moving my body. And then he said this amazing thing. He said, what would happen if you didn't do what you were trained to do? You didn't walk by moving your body consciously? I'm like, why is he asking that? Like, she needs to know how to walk. She had to get to the bus to go to work. Yeah. She doesn't get to the bus unless she can do this walking that she practiced as a young person. So she says, I would. Don't know. I'd be afraid I would fall over if I didn't keep my balance. And he said, how about if I put up my arm and you can put your hand on my forearm and you can walk however you walk. Put away all the ways you are supposed to be and let's see who you are naturally. That's the idea. It doesn't mean she shouldn't use her method when she goes to the bus. Yeah. It's good to know how to do that. Yeah, but the question, like your laziness, wonder what she's like as her.
Yeah.
Not as a fixed person. Again, if we had a cure for cerebral palsy, I'd give it to her. I'm not against that. I'm not thinking it's a psychological problem. She's got a difficulty and it makes her life freaking hard. So I'm not thinking, don't help her if we can help. So she says, okay. So she starts walking and she starts, I'm going to use my hands like the foot. So rather than go left, right, forward, forward, she puts one foot, right foot up and over and the left foot up and over and the right foot up and over and the left foot up and the right foot up and over and left foot over and over. And if you can see or if you can't see people, it starts to look like a circle. Yeah, right. So she's kind of going around like this.
Yeah.
So he's holding hand like that. She starts going in a circle and she's getting more comfortable and more balanced. They're going faster in this circle and she's trying to look balanced. And he says, can I put my arm down? You look pretty bound. She says, okay. And within a couple minutes she was spinning like a child. You know how you spin and you get dizzy as a child spinning. And she's making this radical noise. She's going, woo. And she's spinning. Nobody's holding her. Yeah, totally balanced. Spinning.
Yeah.
She tries to walk straight, she falls over, she's spinning and he yells out to her, what kind of a person are you? And she says, I'm a wild woman. Like that again, I'm not.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, of course.
Yeah. I wept watching that. So I thought, oh my gosh, she's like that. She's a non linear person. She's a circle person. She's a spinning person. She's a wild person. Now she still walks forward.
Yeah, right.
But I thought, why did he ever. How did he even think of doing that?
Yeah.
How do you think of saying, what do you like when you're not fixed, when you're not even healed right? When you're just you. I was like, I want to learn something about that. I want to learn something deep. Why would you ever do that? How come we don't always do that? How come people don't say, what's your anger like? Let me see. That's the same thing he did with the cerebral palsy. Changed my life. I moved. I left a consulting firm for 12 years. I was making a bunch of money. I left. I was like, I want to understand what that guy just did. And his cerebral palsy didn't go away. Yeah, right. So the healing wasn't. I don't have cerebral palsy.
Yeah.
That somebody else could do that. Great. Yes to that. But that's not what. But I thought, that's a different kind of healing. But it was fantastic. And whenever I see her name is Sandy, she lets me tell her story. She says, david, and she puts one arm around me, we spin together, and we're both joyous, you know, so there's all this joy living in her in addition to the difficulty of having cerebral palsy.
This is such an amazing story.
Yeah. Yeah. I thought, I want to do that with everybody. I want to take what anybody says, this is what's wrong with me, and say, what would you be like if I can help you be more of that freely? Maybe there's nothing wrong with you. That's shame. Maybe there's an intelligence, a seed, you said at the very beginning, that's living inside of you that could flower. And if it flowered, maybe it looks wonderful. Maybe rather than trying to make it go away again. Help me with my pains. Help me. Yes. Help me with my infections. Give me an antibiotic. I'm not thinking. Some people say you're against everything. No, I take antibiotics. If I get an infection, I'm glad they exist. Sometimes I take an aspirin. If I have a headache, that's fine. But I'm also wondering, what am I like? What are these headaches like? If I let them express what might come out of me, what seed is living in there? That's an unshaming paradigm. That's a radical different paradigm from how we think about healing, psychology, any other Eastern medicine. It all has a corrective notion. And good.
Yeah.
Because some things really could be corrected and then made.
But not all the science. I mean, we. We are used to correct everything. And like, just this talk kind of healed me right now of my notion of being lazy.
Yeah. Yeah.
I mean, yeah.
And the more you go into that laziness, like we really spent. More you go into it, the more not only you'll accept that I can accept I'm sometimes lazy. Can you hear the negative? Yeah, I can accept it. But I am lazy.
Yeah.
You'll start to fall in love with it. You'll be like, whoa, this is part of me. This is where the genius. This is what made me want to practice medicine. You may learn all Kinds of things that you never thought of because something put a label on that territory.
Yeah.
Usually by a person who didn't like that you had that freedom. Yeah. That you were a dreamer, that you were coming up with creative ideas and things like that. So people I want to ask you about. Yeah. Yes.
Like maybe somebody puts. Yeah. A shame on you or a label.
Yeah.
That you are ashamed of.
Yeah.
How much of our shame is a cultural notion? For example, in Romania, we have a form of education by shaming people. So people, like parents, often say to their children, you should be ashamed.
Yeah.
In Romania, we say this is one of the most used term to like to correct your child, like if he's doing something bad, if he's not. Not. He's not, let's say, behaving the way you think he should behave. People will say, you should be ashamed. Yeah. Other things we say is, you've shamed me. You know, I mean. Or if you go somebody somewhere with. With your child, you're gonna say, numa fache derushine. It means, don't. Don't shame me in the public.
Got you. As a parent, you may I look bad from. Because you're not acting appropriate.
Yes. Because you're acting inappropriate. Because people will say, I didn't give you the proper education, so don't ashamed me in the public, you know, or what you did is shameful. You know, so we have like a big cultural background and is it. Is it bring. Does this bring shame to us?
Yeah. I want to say yes. And be a little careful because here's why I hesitant to say that. And then I want to say yes. Right. Okay. The hesitance is the parent, child relationship. The relationship that parent and child have in the general way, very much impacts what happens when they use that word. For instance, if I'm your parent and we have a really good loving relationship in many ways, certain things I do that are not the best way to do it won't have a negative impact because there's a lot of love and resiliency. And I apologize sometimes when I've hurt you. So I just want to make it easy for a parent to not say, I've made a mistake. I'm a terrible parent. You know, because parents can also be like, I'm a terrible parent. That doesn't help. Right. Parents need to learn. Parents do things that are not good, but that the idea of I'm a bad person doesn't make parents better. Now why do I say yes? Because if the child is taking in the Idea that something's wrong with me, then that lives inside of them. And then they have a sense of themselves where their feelings come up, impulses come up to act, and they're not going to understand themselves. They're not going to understand. They want to be. That they're lazy. And this means I'm dreamy and I'm creative, that my punch means I want to fight, that my loud voice means I have a lot to say. They're not going to learn that. So the person is going to start truncating themselves, cutting parts of themselves off, and those parts of them are going to be very vital to their uniqueness. Because you're talking about a cultural thing. Right. So that means I'm going to stop not becoming the unique person I am, then I'll become like everybody else.
Although we have norms and we have. We need to imply discipline in schools. Right. So if the child is not behaving well, how can we guide him? Because you're not like, say, okay, be unique, do whatever you want.
Yes.
You need to teach him, like, discipline and how he should behave.
Yes.
How can you do that? Being careful to not imply that he is. He has to fix something.
Yeah.
You know, how do you balance this?
I understand with the parents, it's gonna be different than the teacher situation with the parent because it's an intimate relationship. The thing that is the most useful. Parents should disagree with me, by the way. But I'm going to say what I think, right? Yeah. What is the most useful in an intimate relationship is something direct. In the relationship, if you do something like if you're screaming in my ear. Yeah. Right. Rather than say, you should be ashamed of yourself. You're a bad boy. I should say, ouch, that hurts. Or I don't want to be around you when you're screaming in my ear. That's just truth. Right. I'm not trying to put you down. I'm just going to say, if you keep doing that, I'm going to put you in your room. If you keep doing that, I'm going to walk away from you. Right. Because I don't want to be around you screaming in my ear.
So you have a reaction to his actions.
You can have a reaction. I could even be angry. Within the limits of the child and the age, I'm not going to be angry by using my physical power to hurt a person.
Yeah.
But I can say that I'm really angry. I can use my voice, I can use my strength, depending on the child, to really use some of that Power. So if I say stop it now, that is enough.
Yeah.
Right. You can hear that this oomph, there's punching. I'm not physically punching, but this.
Yeah.
I'm allowed to do that. That's going to be much more effective if I'm genuinely angry. Yeah. Than saying, you should be. You're a bad person. The first example, I have a genuine relationship with you.
Yeah.
And you're going to go, oh, I can trust that person because I know they're angry. I know they're upset with me. I know when they hurt, I hurt them. I'm kind of a little scared because they look really angry. That could be just fit just fine. As opposed to, you're a bad person. The bad person doesn't make a more intimate relationship and a better relationship. The child just starts monitoring themselves in a way that's not so good. And the same thing will happen, as I said before, if I'm suppressing myself because I'm a bad person. Right. I'm monitoring myself. I better not be this way. And my self monitoring is so strong that I never act that way. It will come out. It'll come out internally. It'll come out in physical symptoms of energies or it'll come out by bursting out. Yeah. Right. We know this. Like, I can't tell you how many people I've worked with around, around their sexuality who were told, sex is bad. Sex is bad. Unless you're married, sex is bad. That's an opinion. I don't have an opinion about whether that's right or wrong. But I do have an opinion about this. If you tell a person they're really bad to have sexual energy and feelings and impulses, how they live that. Yeah.
This is what parents told us. Yeah. When we were kids.
That's right.
Like when I was watching movies with my parents and there was a sexual scene. Yeah. That's bad.
Put your, that's right.
Your hand in front of your eyes go out.
That's right.
This is bad.
That's right. Now what's gonna happen with that? Now what are you gonna do with the sexual things that have come up in you? I'm turned on. I'm interested. I'm. Ooh, I'm a little excited. I'm curious. What am I going to do with that energy now? It's not allowed. And if the shaming was strong, then it's not going to be allowed inside. Now what's going to happen? Well, one possibility is when I'm 17 and 16, I start drinking all of a Sudden all of that suppressive thing goes away. Now I have no control of myself right now. I don't think this is not a good idea now. I don't think let's make it safe now. I don't think I'm not ready. So it's an now, it's an on off. So rather than me learning what do I do with this sexual energy in me, I suppress. Or I burst out of it.
Yeah.
Or I suppress it so strongly that I get hung up about that or I have problems about that. Or I think I'm a morally bad person about that. And that's going to injure that person. And that person's more likely to do sexually inappropriate and hurtful things because when it comes out, it doesn't come out in appropriate ways because I haven't learned. This is a beautiful part of me, but I don't want to use it in this way. But I want to value myself. I don't use. Learn that I learned just to suppress it. And you again get a huge problem. Yeah. That can't be talked about. Like in the Catholic Church.
Yeah.
And other. And not only the Catholic Church. We shouldn't put them down. All religious institutions, whether they're Eastern gurus. I work with those groups. Sexual abuse all over the place in organizations, in religious organizations. Sexual abuse all over the place. What's happening? People are kind of not knowing what hurts them and not. It's all. Yeah.
I was thinking why that happens.
Yeah.
And this may be the reason.
Yeah.
Because you suppress that and it just gets out like a volcano.
You suppress it. So the person lets it out like a volcano. And then the person who's hurt thinks I'm a bad person. I should never talk about this. Yeah. I don't say, mikhail, is it okay that that person is touching me? And you say, no, I'm going to go report that person. Or I'll never let you get hurt by that. Right. You'll do something. But if I'm full of shame, I won't tell you. You'll never know. That's not good. I want you to know because how so? In this example, you're my parent, Right. In this example, I want you to know because I can protect myself sufficiently. And you're going to then help me. We hope that would be the idea. But the whole system is in silence. The person doing it is doing it in a hidden way. In the church example, again, I don't want to pick on only the church. They just got caught. It doesn't mean it's okay. But they're not the only people. Right. But the institution is. The people in the higher ups are saying, don't tell anybody. The people who are getting hurt say, I should never tell you because I'm a disgusting human being. If anybody knows. So the whole system is wrapped by shame. That means nobody's allowed to find out what's actually happening. That's the bigger problem then, is not that some people are sexually abusing others. That's awful. We should condemn that. But the bigger problem is that it grows so big because nobody knows it, nobody reports it, nobody talks about it. Does that make sense?
Yeah. And as far as I know, nobody links the cause to this effect.
Yeah.
And I mean, yeah, it. It probably will be so hard. It's not our job. But it's going to be so hard to change that. Yeah. Because religion shames sexuality.
Yeah. There's a doctor in the United States, his name is Larry Vassar and he was the doctor for the United States Gymnastics Olympic team. Yeah. I got feelings when I talk about this because it's so painful. So he started sexually abusing 12, 13, 14 year old girls. Right. Under the idea, guys, that this was medical treatment. Right. Their bodies know this is not okay because they're scared or whatever or they're getting cramps or. Right. These girls are having experiences in their bodies. Isn't that awful? Somebody should scream about that. You know what I mean? We should all scream or cry or both. Right? Yeah. So that's happening. Some of those girls go and tell other people. They tell the parent. Nah, he's a doctor. I know you are. Right. But that's the idea. Yeah. So I don't believe you. Something's wrong with you. Right. I don't know why you're having these weird feelings. You're making up stuff about maybe you got some sexual problems. That's why you're making stuff up. So you tell parents. Then some of the people are telling other doctors. Then some of the people are telling higher ups in the institute, in the Olympic institution. Then people are telling police, then people are telling district attorneys. 20 years. This goes on 20 years. And then 160 women came forward before the court, said we should do something. What? And if they came forward, there's a lot more because most people don't tell. Why does it take 20 years and 160 women to report somebody before they say maybe there's something going on? Because the whole culture has perhaps this whole problem in shame? What's wrong with you? He would never do that you just got a problem. Huge. Huge. And those parents who then realized what was happening, think of the pain that they're in. Oh my gosh, I left this happen to my daughter. They were telling the truth. Yeah, but the shame. The shame is the bigger problem because it makes a silence about everything.
But are the parents ashamed also of something that they. They imply to the child that it's their fault? Like we have. I try to understand this. It's called victim blaming. Right. We have this in Romania a lot of the time. So in Romania, if you're a woman and you're sexually abused and you go to a police.
Yeah.
It's.
Yeah.
Pretty often the police is going to blame you for the way you dressed up.
Yeah.
It's your fault that you dressed up.
Why did you walk down that street as if, as if you're walking down the street? Means. Not that we shouldn't be careful. Being careful is good. But that's not why somebody abused you. Right? Yes, you should be careful.
So why do we use victim blaming? Is it because we are ashamed of something also? Like the people that they use the victim blaming? Why?
That's a really good question. The first answer I have is, I'm not sure why it's trained in the culture. It has certain functions. I know. It protects people who are powerful. Right. Because the perpetrators have more power than the victim in the world. Right.
But also it's like I try to imagine that I'm blaming a victim. That means that they don't want to accept a change. I don't want to accept that something is wrong. If I say no, that's. You're wrong.
Yeah, that's right.
Right.
Right. Then you get protected. So does protecting me. You don't take responsibility. And then a culture gets protected. Like Western psychology. Right. Most people would say Western psychology started with Sigmund Freud. Maybe this, this. We can argue whether there's other people in certainly indigenous cultures, we're doing things with dreams and. But Western psychology starts more or less with Freud. Freud did his original research. He worked. I. I can't remember how many. I want to say it was 18 women, but maybe it was 15. I'm not remembering. And he. From every single one of those women, he heard stories of them being what we would call sexually abused as children. He wrote that down. He wrote a paper. I'm not making that up. He delivered the paper to a bunch of doctors in Vienna. And you know what they did. You're crazy. You can't talk like that. And then. And I'M not making this up. You can read the original paper, right? It's not like an idea that I'm having about it.
Yeah.
And then he changed his theory. The theory was children have sexual fantasies, fantasies about their parents. Think about that. We move from a story, a victim hurt by a perpetrator, an actual story that could affect you. If sexual abuse, that'll affect you. Your psychology, your freezing your body. Maybe you get cramps, maybe you get tumors. People get all kinds of things when they're sexually violated. Now rather than having a story to tell, that's not a shame thing, that's a real story. Yeah, that's my real experience. Now I have a psychological problem. And now when I go to therapy, I don't say can you help me with what happened to me as a child. I say can you help me with my sexual fantasies? Make sense.
Yeah.
Now I'm pathologized, Now I have a sickness, I don't have a story to tell. And I genuine hurt. I have a pathology. So psychology's root is shame based in that way. We don't think you have a story. You have important things living in you that can like seeds that can flower. You've got problems, something's wrong with you. So I can't treat your story. Now people are learning a lot more about that. Right. Learning about trauma and abuse a lot more and talking about those stories. Thank God or whoever we should think about that. But psychology has its roots in shame based ideas. You have something weird about you.
Yeah, yeah, that's. I didn't know about this story and the change from sexual abuse to, to fantasy just because, I mean not just, but because it was criticized by.
Yeah. Culture. The culture was like now you have the induct in your example. Now you have a whole culture says I don't want people looking at me as some, as a potential sexual abuser. I'd rather people. Yeah, let's have a lot of people.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah. So there was a lot of that. And when I practice law, I studied, we used to call it thinking back to your victim blaming. There was a movement, it was called false memory movement. And there was a whole bunch of people who were saying people are going to therapy and making up stories. They're false. Okay. Can people tell, say false things? Yes. Some people lie. Is that the norm? No. Are there a lot of stories that need to come out still? Yes, because some people say, well aren't some, don't people make something up? Yes, but then we have to look at how many people Are making up a false story versus how many people have stories that have never been told? There's a lot more of the not told stories. So we need a lot more support. We still do. That was like 30 years ago. We still need that. Because still people take a long time because of shame. Because I don't want to tell you what happened to me. Why? Why don't I want to tell you? Well, I'm ashamed. Why? Why am I ashamed to tell you I got hurt? Only reason I'm framed to tell you I got hurt is because I have ideas inside that something's bad about me, something's wrong about me. I'm not telling you about something that happened that I'm telling you about something bad about me. How did that happen? That shouldn't happen. If somebody mistreated me. Yes. Yeah.
What about the shame of being different today? Like we have some sort of social norms. We have to fit in.
Yeah.
And if you don't fit in as the way you look, as the way your body is, or maybe as, let's say, sexual orientation.
Yeah. Huge.
And you ashamed of that. Yeah. And you don't. And you, you hide that from the society because society thinks you're not appropriate. What about that? And what people that are different, what can they do about this shame?
They feel huge. So there's a couple of things. One is solidarity with other people who live in your difference, who live in your diversity group. Right.
Okay.
Is really important because they will. Because they will have similar experiences. And rather than thinking, what's wrong with me? You'll say, oh, David, let me tell you, I have the same experience. Or I'm older. I came out five years ago. It's normal what's happening for you. Right. So rather than pathologizing, you're normalizing. Of course you feel that way. Of course you're scared about that. So, okay, so now I'm living in a micro culture where people are not looking at me as a sick person.
This is helpful.
Yeah, yeah. That's a huge thing. If I can't find the community, read books of people who have come out in their way, whether that's a queer person. Read books and then somehow get close to people who are intimate with that experience. So you can kind of go, oh, this is not because something's wrong with me. This is what happens. So that's one thing. Then we go back to inner criticism. Because the culture has criticisms. They internalize. That makes sense. So now I have something inside of me. You're a weirdo. You're a pervert. I'm saying those words. Don't take those in. I'm amplifying them because they're gross. In the cases we're talking about, we're not talking about perverts, right? We're talking about people who have loving relationships that perhaps are the same sex. Yeah, right? So that person has ideas like that, and they're in their head, but they may not know it because no one may ever said it to them out loud. You are a disgusting, sexual deviant human being. No one may have said it, but the ideas are everywhere. They're breathing that in all the time. So they may never have had anybody say that, but yet they absorb that. So now those viewpoints, like an inner criticism, are living, but they're not aware of it and they don't defend themselves from it. Okay? Now particularly that happens even more with what we call today microaggression, and if you know that term. So an aggression is I hate queer people. Right? Yeah, that's right. You should never be able to adopt children. Okay, sorry, everybody. To protect yourself. I don't want to hurt you.
Yes, yes.
I'm not saying my views right. That's a direct aggression. Yeah, right. You should not be allowed out of the house. You're a deviant. That's a direct aggression. So. And then we. Most people recognize that. Yeah, right. That's a person who hates gay people. Watch out for those people. But many aggressions are not direct. Okay, right? Like, let's say you walk down the street and you put your hand in your male lover's hand, right? Yeah, right. I'm not. I don't know your identity. Right. I'm just. Right. Yeah, right. And then you pass by and I look at you and I make a face like, you're disgusting. But I never say the words. Yeah, right. And I walk across the street and I whisper about you, and you walk into the family room and everyone gets quiet and you know. And you kind of know, and you take your hand away from your boyfriend's hand. Because I shouldn't look that way. Yeah. So now a lot of messages are coming at you. But I'm never saying I'm against queer people. I think that's bad. But I'm. But the message is all over the place. That makes sense. So I'm delivering those messages. But they're what. They're called microaggressions, meaning we don't usually see them directly. They never said anything. David never said anything. You didn't see the face. I didn't see the face. But you're sensitive to the face because you get it all the time. Yeah, but me, I don't know. I don't think so. They seem just fine. I think they were just, you know, looking, had a bad day.
But they get them.
Yeah, but they get it. So you absorb that. But I don't see it.
Yeah.
In that case, there's no inner witness. So you're just kind of going, why? Maybe I'm screwed up. Maybe I'm making things up. Why am I feeling so bad about myself that all that's internalizing and it's not seen? And when it's not seen, then you don't know you're being hurt. You don't know. Those ideas live inside of you. You're not defending yourself. And then you'll end up feeling bad about yourself, trying to fix yourself. That will be shame. So you'll walk around and shame about all these different things in this case related to being queer. How I do this, how I do that, how I dress, how I pronounce words, all these little things. I won't even think about it. But I'll try to put them all away and feel like something's wrong with me. How do I get over this? It's getting easier because the culture is more out. I don't know what it's like in Romania, but over the decades, and I'm 68, when I was young, there were many people who got married to a straight, same sex, opposite sex person because they didn't want to be out in the culture.
Yes. It's the same in Romania. Yeah. Actually, I don't know. I think we have a lot of microaggression against queer people, but we have a lot of open aggression. Like, let me give you an example. We have every year we have on the biggest trade in Bucharest, we have the LGBTQI plus parade. Parade. Yeah, yeah. And the next day we have priests that go on the same street and they. They clean the energy, you know?
Yeah, yeah, right. And Right. Gross. As if I'm dirty, so to speak.
Right, exactly. And we have television filming that. And so. Yeah, the thing is that if you're, if you're queer in Romania, you know, there's a lot of aggression against you. So you probably, you will think it's better choice for you to hide. Yes, it's easier. It's going to be easier for you.
Yeah.
So how can you do that without internalizing that shame? How can you see that aggression that is against you? And what should you do? To feel, I don't know, to heal yourself.
Huge. I mean, there's. There's a few things to say. I always say that because there are. One is the culture itself needs healing, not just that person. Right?
Yeah.
I'm in the. I'm. If I'm on the outside putting that person down and parading that they're dirty, I should heal.
Take time.
I mean, that takes time.
That takes generations.
It takes generations. The whole thing takes generations. I just want to say that shouldn't only be on that person, but let's talk about what that person can do. Just so we hold the whole culture responsible for making people sick. Yeah, Right. So. So what can that person do? As I said, getting to build a micro culture, friends that you know, who understand you. So you have some places where you don't feel something's wrong with me is a really big deal, you know? Okay. Some African Americans in the United States would go to Africa. I want to be around a place where there's all black people and they kind of go, oh, my gosh. You know, just to feel what it's like. Because they don't. We don't know what it's like. So that's a big thing. Again, that inner critic exercise I was doing, having somebody say the words out loud, even if they were never said. Even if I just looked at you, Right. Or put incense around you. Right. Say the words that were implied. You're a dirty person. We have to clean up the air just to be near you. Somebody should say the words so that you hear. You were saying in terms of the neurology. Right.
You have to say them for yourself.
You have to say them out loud so you hear them or have somebody say them out loud.
Okay.
And then you have to let yourself respond. And you. And that response could be like, I want to collapse. I want to die. I don't even want to live anymore. That's important because people are suicidal. Yeah, big time. In the queer community, in the trans community, suicide is huge. So if I'm thinking, I don't want to live, that's serious. I'm going to actually take my life. So I want my response to come out right. The criticism comes out, you're a dirty whatever. Then I want the person to know, I don't want to live. This is terrible. And if the person has some fight in them, I want them to express that fight, not necessarily with the people who will hurt them.
Okay?
They have to figure that out. But first by themselves or with other people. I hate this People are hurting me. And let that up so that you feel it, because inside of you is like, I want to be able to defend myself. I can't on the street, because I will get hurt.
Yeah.
But I have. But I can't put. I should feel it somewhere. Otherwise that energy gets bottled up in the body. It's not good.
So how do you express that energy?
Yeah. You can do that. If you couldn't do it with other people.
Yeah.
Then just. Then doing it with a few friends or even by oneself. Even by oneself. And sitting in a room. Right. If it were me, I would stand up, I would pace around and I kind of go, is it okay to do that? Yeah. I go, people are putting me down. I can't stand this. They're bunch of phobics. And I would let myself really go all out and I'd be like, wow. And it would be medicine for me to know that's in me, to express it. To not have it all bottled up in my shoulders and my cramps, in my stomach acids. Yeah. That lives in me. No, I'm not going to do that on the street. I don't want to get beat up. But I know who I am. I know. I want to punch the shit out of you. I'm not going to do it. I know. I want to scream in your face. I'm not going to do it. But I'm not sitting there kind of going, oh, gosh, I feel terrible around you. I'm inside, I'm thinking, you are an idiot. You're an asshole. And I know it's inside of me. I have a fist in my pocket. I'm not.
And I'm expanding myself.
Yeah. Inside, at least. Yeah. On the outside, we have to decide how far you go. Is it dangerous to do that?
Yeah.
So you have to be careful. But you should know what's inside of you, because people, if you're in touch with that kind of power, then you look at me and you kind of go, queers. And I kind of go. And I shake my head and I kind of think, you know, And I know I. I have a fist in my mouth. Sorry, spit. I have a fist in a. In my. In my pocket, in my energy. So I sit up when you say that. When I walk down the street, I have pride as opposed to curl up and want to die. That's. We need that. People need that if they're put down regularly. Yeah. Otherwise they get sick. Literally, people get physically ill.
I love what you said. You. I have pride. That's What? Probably. Yeah, it's called pride. Yeah. The parade.
Yeah. In the, in the black community in the United States the words are black lives matter.
Yeah.
Mattering. I matter is an antidote. Not to thinking you're no good, but I don't even matter. Throw me away, get rid of me. Right. I have a Jewish background. Throw me. Right. Throw me in the chambers. Just. We don't need these people. Yeah. Sensitive topic, but yeah, you know, sensitive because of the Middle east also. But that's too political. But you get the idea. It's like you're a throwaway. So in the black community it's the. I matter as a black person. So mattering is an anti shame in the gay community. Pride. Right. So instead of curling up and dying, I sit up and put my chest up. That's right. I am beautiful. You know, I need that kind of defense from something that would say. And many of us need that. Women need it around their body and beautiful. I'm beautiful. So there's a lot of, a lot of work around body positivity. I may be large for some people or I may be rounder, I may be flabbier. And a lot of women are finding a need for positivity. Why I want to not. I want to do something that doesn't look like I'm ugly, I'm not attractive, I'm not lovable. Yeah. So different communities have found different anti shaming medicines as a community. Yeah.
Never thought of that of it this way. Look, sometimes driven by shame, we don't allow ourselves to complete ideas, decisions, actions or choices out of fear of embarrassment.
Yes.
So how can we overcome that? Or how can we, how can we notice that we are blocked because of the shame and we cannot go forward because of the shame.
Yeah, it's a great question. So in, in every action or idea, there's an impulse. I mean, something inside of me is moved.
Yeah.
Right. In like physics, I call it a vector. It's got a. It go. It wants to go in a direction, has a certain amount of energy. Right. So I like want to say hi to you. So I'm going to put my hand out. Something in me was moved to do that. So. And that could be whether it's writing a book or shaking a hand or whatever, asking a question in a conference when I'm quiet. So it's really helpful to people to get in touch with the energy of their impulses because most people aren't in touch with that. There's an energy that lives inside me that wants to do something. And mostly that's useful to do somatically in the body. How do I know I want to put my hand out to you? I don't know. But my hand right now is up.
Yeah.
And it's starting to move. So if I kind of. What would my hand do if I let it go? Move forward. And that same thing is like that with other things. If it was writing a book. I know about that because I've just finished my fourth book and it was. Took me many years. It took me into my 50s before I can publish my first book. I got what you would call blocked. Something inside me was like, you can't say those kind of things. And inner criticism I couldn't deal with. I was not strong enough in myself to handle people's negative opinions. Etc, so. But then if I. You said you once wanted to write your book. Yeah. What was that like? Well, it was really important to me. Can you feel how important it was? And at some point I will feel that. And if you help me stay with that, then you'll help me get to know that impulse, the energy to move, to do something lives in the person and you can always find it in the body. So that's really helpful. And then if you want, you can try to block a person and help them get to know that. That's my first idea. But what. Maybe ask more. I'm thinking it's. That's not adequate for people to actually maybe get a lot of use out of what I just said. But what do you. No.
Well, actually, yeah. Like you're. You're ashamed. I don't know. Let me give you.
Yeah. Give an example.
So let's say there's a man or a woman that wants to make a social media account and say things and say stories. She. And he. Or he has a lot of things to share.
Great.
But he's ashamed. Or she's ashamed. She's embarrassed.
I don't.
Embarrassment and shame is kind of.
It could be. Yeah, there could be a shame. That's. That's. Yeah. Yeah.
So she's ashamed of taking the phone and filming herself and expressing herself because she's thinking, well. Or he is thinking, well, I'm not enough people are going to laugh at me.
Yes.
What will my friends say? They will say I'm crazy and she's blocking all of that impulses and the energy she can share just because she's ashamed of doing that.
Right. So there's so. So there's two things again. One is then I would say to that person. Tell me more about wanting to do that social media thing. I know you may not be able to do it, but tell me more about that. And I would let them talk for, and ask them questions for five minutes. It wouldn't, it wouldn't take more than five minutes, okay. For that person to start becoming animated, even a little bit. Right? Like it could. It could be like they would talk a little faster like I'm doing right now. It could be they would use their hands. It could be they were smiling a little bit more than they were before. Well, they were more boring. They're a little smiling. It could be they would have a little laugh. Something about them would communicate. I'm feeling energy in my, in my being and in my body. It would show every time. My eyes might light up a little bit. I'm really leaning forward. When you ask the question, something would happen. And as soon as the person's starting to show that energy in the body, then you have to ask them. Then one useful thing is you're starting to lean forward and you're making a hand motion. Lean forward even more. Make that hand motion again. Exaggerate, stand up and do that more. Because we're helping the person be in touch with themselves because they don't know all that lives inside of them. And pretty soon they're making wide motions or they're saying things or they're whispering. This is really important to me. Even that's very strong, right? Because all of a sudden everyone's going to listen and they're going to find the voice that lives inside of them that's been blocked. Doesn't mean it's going to come out yet. But now they at least know what they're blocking.
Okay?
Because if a voice is blocked, the person doesn't know what it. The voice actually is because it's blocked before it comes out. They don't know whether they whisper. They don't know whether they're poetic. They don't know whether they're intimate and tender. They don't know whether they want to say strong, fierce things. They don't know that, I guarantee it. Because the impulse is being blocked and ever saw themselves do it.
Okay?
So that would be the first, the first thing. The second thing goes back to the inner criticism thing. Once they're in touch with that impulse, then I would say to them, okay, feel that impulse. Feel that energy. Make those hand motions. Say those words in whispers or shouts. Say those words and I'm going to try to stop you consciously. They're going to be there. Your friends are all going to walk away from me. I'm going to start and I'm going to help them find a response to me.
That's so nice. Yeah.
You know, so that they can start playing, making play. Like if it was a child, we'd call that play. With an adult, we call that play. So that they're getting used to the territory they're walking into. Now, after they do that, will they be able to do the social media thing? It depends on them how fast that goes.
But we. So you, you try to stop them and then you, you ask them to defend themselves.
Yeah. Right. Push back. I might even do it physically. You might say, let's say you use your hands and you said, I want to say this, and your hands went out. And I would say, can I put my hands against yours? And if you said yes, I would say, I'm going to put my hands against yours to stop them literally from moving.
Yeah.
Okay, makes sense. I go like that and I say, go ahead. And then you'd kind of go, I'm like, well, you're stopping you. I would stop you. It looks like, no, I'm just not using energy. Please use it. And then you would push your hands out and I would push against you.
Okay.
Because that's what you're manifesting in the physical realm, what you're experiencing. And then I would put the words to it. Everyone's going to dislike you. And I'd push against your hand and help you feel what it's like. And we might wrestle and play and, you know, I'd say, oh, now I'm getting to know how much energy is in you. You're going to need that. We're back to some fight that lives in you. You're going to need that to beat people up. No, to get in front of your microphone. It's not hurting anybody. It's helping people. But I can't get in front of that microphone because there's something so against me. But I don't know it.
Yeah.
And I've never tried again, like a martial arts. I never tried to go in, into the boxing ring and deal with it. I taught a class in a university for students who had to do presentations at the university and they had a hard time doing them. And one of the administrators of the university said, can you help our students? And I said, sure, I'll make a presentation class. Okay. And here's what I would do. I would say to people, listen in your head for criticism. Make it louder and louder. And louder. And write down two or three key phrases. You're stupid. You should shut up. No one's going to listen to you anyway. Go away. There's other important things to do. Right. And then I had them stand in front of the class and say, get ready. Get ready to fight. Don't get ready to take it. I don't want you absorbing this. Get ready. Put your hands up. And I say, okay, you ready? Yeah. You're an idiot. And I would help that person do that. And we just practice. Yeah. And then they'd be able to make a presentation easier. Right. So again, the fight, they're not going out and beating people up. Yeah. They're just. They might even be saying something very gentle. So what about all the fight? It's to get them past the thing that would stop them from living. So lots of people have, again, external oppression, internalized oppression, microaggressions, things that we learn from families, humiliations that people had very young, especially if it's public. If a person gets publicly humiliated, like a kid in a classroom says something and the teacher puts that person down, that's bad. But if everyone laughs, it goes in very deep. It goes into the shame territory. I'm a weird person. I'm screwed up. Everyone's laughing at me. I'm a laughing. I'm a laughable. People should laugh at the kind of person I am. That's really, really bad. And then some people can never come out and speak in public because of those events. Speaking in public is one of the hardest things, the scariest things for people in the research. Speaking in public is scarier than losing a parent. Having a parent gets cancer, having a war. Literally, like, it's like, yeah. Speaking public. Why is speaking public just itself so scary? It's because people were hurt, ridiculed, put down in public.
Oh, my God.
And shamed. And shamed about their reactions because they couldn't do it, because they were too tender, because they weren't tough enough for all these different. They felt shame around it. And because of that, we have a lot of voices that don't come out. It's pain, an abusive scene, and then shame gets wrapped around it.
Yeah. So many. So many shamed people, right?
Yeah.
Around the world.
And then people walk around, what's wrong with me? What's wrong with the throne? I'm like, some. Did somebody ever put you down in a classroom? Yeah, but it was a small thing. No, it wasn't. Because being put down in front of a group of people can look small. I Can just kind of go, I could be in a. You could be in a classroom at 6 years old, and I can say, mihail, that's the laughingest thing I've ever seen. A bunch of kids could laugh. That's. That's not. That's not that big. But if you're vulnerable, that could go in in a way that will silence you for 30 years.
Yeah. And it's. It's amazing in a way how, like, you maybe don't care. And it's a small thing.
Yeah.
But from the exterior, it can be. It can be seen as a small thing, but if you take it inside and you start to believe that there's something wrong with you, you go and you stay there.
That's right.
You're ashamed of filming yourself. You're ashamed of talking in the public. You shame of a lot of other things. That just keeps your energy there.
It's a huge thing. The initial criticism of the teacher. Obnoxious. Someone should tell that teacher how to teach better.
Yeah.
But the shame around it and the giggling. Not that. Not that the kids are all bad because they did that. But how it goes in. Yeah. Now I'm. Now I'm not thinking about the teacher. I'm thinking about everybody laughing at me. You know what I'm saying? I'm not even thinking about the teacher anymore. I'm in a world where everyone's gonna laugh at me. And that world is very painful to live in. There's a great story. Some people will know. You may know there's an African American writer named Maya Angelou. Okay? Maya Angelou. And she died, I wanted, five, six years ago. So black professor and incredible writer. When Maya was young, I think she was five. Right. She got raped. That's just slowed down. And people take. Get triggered. Right. That's like a big deal for a young girl, for any person, any age. But. Okay. And she's thinking, should I tell anybody? This is bad. Should I tell anybody? And then she decides to tell. I think it was an uncle. I never remember the relative. I forget. So she tells. And a few days later, there's a knock on the door. And it's the sheriff, the police, they find the man who raped her dead, Kicked to death. Okay. And she concludes in her child's mind, I did this terrible thing. Right. I caused this person to die. Right. She didn't cause the person to die. But that's. You can see a child might think that. Yeah. So she decides, my voice is deadly. It's a bad thing to speak up about anything. She gets silent. She doesn't speak. She didn't speak for five and a half years. Five and a half years, she wrote.
She didn't speak.
She didn't speak. She wouldn't speak. And then her relatives sent her to her grandmother's house. Yeah, because grandmother was a special, loving grandma. And maybe grandma knows what to do with her. Grandma says one day, you're going to be a great teacher. Don't you worry. Five and a half years, grandma's just loving her up, not saying, we have to get you to speak. Anyway, that's a long story in itself, but I want to tell you this part. So one day, Maya goes to school and she gets a new teacher at the beginning of the year. And the teacher asks everybody to say their name. And Maya doesn't speak. Yeah, she write it down, Right. And the teacher ridiculed her, teased her, criticized her in front of the classroom. And Maya came home crying to grandma. Right? And Maya had a brother. The brother tells grandma what happened. Grandma gets dressed, takes Maya to school, goes to the front of the classroom, smacks the teacher in the face in front of everybody. And then the teacher says, why did you do that? And. And the grandma says, do you have grandchildren? Meaning, do you understand? Do you love some children that you would want to protect? And then she says. And the teacher gets quiet. And then the grandma says, I'm sorry. I should never have hit you, and I shouldn't have done that in the classroom. Grandma's now modeling. This is how you act. Still give it. Right. And then. So that she does that in front of Maya, this whole thing right where the. Right where the wound happened in the classroom. Right back to the wound. She goes home and she makes Maya her favorite cake and gives it to her. And this is what she says. Slapping that teacher and making this cake will never, ever make up for what happened to you today. But it's the best I could do. Now that's unshaming. Can you follow? Maya is now filled. Isn't that beautiful? Makes my hairs on my arm go. Yeah. Now my eyes filled with. I matter. I got. I. I didn't deserve this. I'm a precious human being who should be treated certain ways. I should be loved. See, it gets. Makes your eyes moist.
Yeah, it makes it.
Yeah. Isn't that. That's an unshaming event. The teacher is a. Is an abusive person, a terrible, nasty person. But the. But we need somebody who's going to witness the event. Letting Maya. Telling Maya there's nothing wrong with You. That shouldn't have happened. People hurt you. Right. Let me tell you what really happened. Not something's wrong with you, and you did something wrong, and you should have spoken, and that's why you get beat up. Yeah. Let me tell you about the worth, the pride, the dignity of your humanity. Let me make sure that's known, like, say, inviolate. That's solid inside of you. Yeah. And Maya becomes this, you know, amazing teacher, amazing voice. Millions of books she wrote. Speaking. Yeah. And the first thing she spoke, telling the story.
Yeah.
That story. She wrote a book called. The first book she wrote was I know why the caged bird sings. Does that make sense? I. I'm a caged bird. We're talking about losing a voice. I know why the caged bird also sings right inside the cage I was living in. And the cage was. I know.
I know the book. I know the book.
Yeah.
I never put my hand on it, but, yeah, I know the book.
Yeah. Grandma's story. I learned about that story because Maya Angelou wrote a cookbook, because I read almost everything. I think I read everything she wrote in her cookbook. She told the story about grandma taking to school and where the recipe for the cake was. I was like, this is a great story. Is it great?
It's nice.
Yeah. Everybody needs a grandma, so to speak. Grandma, a parent, a friend.
This is a genius grandma.
It's a genius grandma. Yeah. Amazing. That's an unshaming culture that grandma creates.
Amazing. Because, you know, this is. This was actually my last question when I wanted to ask you. How can we create a supportive environment that helps others feel less ashamed and more accepted? We need this kind of grandmas or friends or parents. Right.
Elders meaning not elders meaning that you don't have to be older. Elders meaning I have enough resources to not only care for myself, which I should, otherwise I can't live my life. But to care for. To see other people, to not just care, but to see them. Oh, you're over there. Oh, that group over there or that person over there, they're not getting with. Oh, that kid got criticized. I can see another person and offer them with Maya Angelou. I call that a blessing. But that word gets confused. But I can put eyes. My eyes on you that see a beautiful, intelligent person worthy of care and respect and protection, worthy of caring for the flower that could. The seed that could grow. Even if people think it's a bad seed, I would think maybe something's in that seed that nobody knows about. And if I took the time I might see that anger turn into power or that laziness turn into leaves in nature or etc, you know, or Maya, to turn into one of the greatest writers and speakers in the American history. It might turn into that.
And it's such a great story and such a great advices you gave us today. So. Yeah. David, thank you so much for taking your time. You had a long flight. You told me I had a bad night in a hot room.
Yeah, yeah.
But thank you so much for taking your time for. And shaming me basically for being lazy a few of the days.
That's the word. I. I developed that word you can unshame.
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And teaching us all of this good things. Finally we have a proper definition for. For shame. I understood what shame is and how to fight with that.
Yeah.
Because we have instruments to fight with that.
Yeah, we do. Yeah.
Tools. Real tools.
Yeah.
Thank you so much. I will switch back to Romania to think. Thanks.
Okay, go ahead. Thanks for having me and spending so much time with me and giving me a. A microphone and an audience, your audience to say my. To speak my words, which I couldn't do all my. For many years. So. Yeah, you're giving. You're like Maya Angelou's grandmother for me. You're saying, david, I want to hear what you have to say. Does this make sense? And that's beautiful words. Yeah. So I want to thank you for that.
Sorry I don't have a cake now.
Well, you owe me a cake. Yes, yes.
Okay. Thank you so much. On podcast. So. Interior. The inner mapping inside. Podcast. David, thank you so much again for all of this tools you gave us today. So let's click the button, subscribe. Ciao.
Sam.
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