Listen or Lose Your Guests with Zack Oates

Hey, welcome to the Restaurant Coach podcast. It is the cure for the common restaurant. I am joined today by my good friend Zach Oates from Ovation.

Zach, what's up, Donald? How are you, man?

Excellent, man. Long time no see. I saw you in Vegas like, a week ago, right?

I know. Well, it already is too long. We'll see each other in Texas, though, right?

This Sunday, we're going to be at the Texas Restaurant association show in San Antonio, Texas Marketplace. I'm excited. That's gonna be a good show. Yeah.

See if we get a little bit of that riverwalk going. Excited.

I love. I love San Antonio. Great town. Great town. So Zach is from a company called Ovations. And the reason I brought Zach on today is because, you know, with COVID going on and everything that we're coming out of, behavior, especially buying behaviors, have changed. And we used to rely purely on the table touch, where I could actually physically walk up to a table, ask you, how is everything? How was your steak? How was your shake? How was your burger? How was your cocktails? I could actually ask you specific thing, but now we lost a lot of that. Luckily, Zach has a solution. Zach, why don't you tell a little about yourself and tell them a little bit about what Ovation is?

Sure. So I grew up in the hospitality industry. My first job was in restaurants. After my dad retired from the NFL, he got into restaurants and retail. And so that was like, my childhood, my upbringing, my high school. And then I got into technology, and I saw the power that there was in technology. And one thing that I constantly noticed is that as we know, everything in restaurants, I mean, everything, Donald, is about the guest experience. You create a bad guest experience, and you lose a customer for life.

Right.

Especially nowadays when. When it's just so easy to eat another restaurant. And the crazy thing about this is that there's really no good ways to measure it. I mean, think about it. A table touch, right?

Which.

Which is a. You know, how was everything like you were saying? Which is great, except for the fact that no one's really that honest, Right?

No one. No.

And. And even when they are honest, are your servers really, like, marking it down and giving you a report of what people are saying? I don't think so.

No.

And then you have, like, okay, online reviews. Well, look, that's like, too little, too late. It's too public. Like, you know, everyone knows the issues there. Or what? Like, complaining in person. Someone's going to call the store and complain, and then. Or go up to the manager and complain. And then they're going to get recorded and get posted on YouTube as the next Karen. Like, nobody wants to be that person, right?

So. Or worse, dude, this actually happened to me. I was at a restaurant. Restaurant. I had an overcooked steak. I complained to the manager about the steak was overcooked. And he, this is what he said. Oh. And he walked away. They never came back to the table ever again. It's really overcooked. In fact, it's really so bad. Overcooked. I can barely eat. It was like. It was like, I mean. Dead. Dead.

Yeah. And the fundamental issue is that we as restaurateurs, we want to make it right, but we just make it so hard for our guests to tell us when it isn't right. And Data shows that 20 to 30% of tickets have an issue now. That's the backdrop of the problem that we're facing nowadays, right? Too much effort, too much work. Receipt surveys, no one's doing those anymore. So what I did was I went out and with my background in restaurants and technology, started interviewing a bunch of restaurant owners to figure out, is this a universal problem? Got a team together and we built Ovation to solve this. And basically what we do at Ovation is we have an omnichannel survey. Now, this survey is two questions long. You could count both of those two. It's how was it? Tell us more. And if it was five out of five, they loved it. We pushed them to leave positive reviews on Google, Yelp, Facebook, TripAdvisor. If it was a less than 5 star experience. And I'm not talking like, oh, I'm so mad, but it's like, hey, it was great, but you, like, didn't give me any of your fry sauce. And that's like one of my favorite things. Then we send them to a private survey, goes right to the manager's phone, and from their phone, through the Ovation app, they click three buttons and they can respond to that guest with a personalized text message. So then the cool thing is, as you look at a 30,000 foot view, what we're able to do is take all of that data from online reviews and private feedback and show you trends of what's going well, what needs to be improved, which locations are doing well, what managers are struggling with service, where are, how many people are coming back in that were upset. So we're able to really show you all of that along with the roi. And so we're getting more five star reviews, discovering insights and really driving that revenue. So that's that's where, you know, we were. We started before COVID And we started because, you know, it was basically to figure out, how do you do a better table touch? Then Covid hit, and it was like we went from being, hey, this is like a really cool tool, to being like, oh, my gosh, without Ovation, how do I have any idea what my guests are thinking?

Exactly. Yeah. So, you know, and the big thing, I think, through all of this COVID pandemic stuff, I think the big thing restaurant owners have all come to realize is that we really need to embrace technology and we need to incorporate it better and more seamlessly into how we run our restaurants. Yes. Yeah.

And. And we need to not just have technology replacing humans, but have technology augmenting humans. Right?

Augment them. Yes, exactly.

You can't take the humans out of hospitality.

No.

And when. When Covid hit, a lot of people were like, hey, look, is. Is the traditional hospitality dead? And I told everyone, it's not dead. It's just gone digital, actually. And it's omnichannel. You can't rely on just people coming in your door and training your managers to look at faces. There are so many other signals you have to look at now, and that will never change.

Exactly. Right. And the big thing you mentioned too, is like, you know, it needs to be seamless. It needs to augment the human part. I mean, how complicated would be for a restaurant manager to sit down every day and start pulling up all the reviews from all the different traffic sites they have?

I mean, there's two. There's just so many.

And, like, you'd have a full time job just doing that, basically.

Yeah. I mean, and some of our brands, they literally have a full time job doing just that. But when it comes down to it, it's like one of the things, you know, we have two design principles of our product. The first one is we start with the consumer, we start with the guest. How do we make it stupid simple for them to give you feedback and make it so low effort? And the other thing is, for your managers, how do we make it so simple for them to respond to that guest? Because, you know, I don't. I don't want your manager taking 20 minutes a day responding to guests because they need to be there in the store. They need to be helping the staff, they need to be dealing with things that are going on there. And so with Ovation, I was talking with a manager the other day that was kind of bragging that she was able to be. To help out on the line. So she was flipping a burger. And then in her other hand, she responded to a guest with a personalized text message apologizing for their specific concern with her name, their name, and attached a promo to track when they came back. And choosing that while flipping a burger took her four seconds. And that's the speed. That's the effort that we want managers to put into it. And again, it took her brain power and her understanding of hospitality, but augmented by Ovation technology to allow for this experience. And now the guest responded back and was like, wow, someone read this and holy cow, someone responded that quickly. They didn't know it was that easy. And they shouldn't.

Right? And they should know. But, you know, the thing is, like, most restaurants don't even reply.

Oh, my gosh. If someone has taken the time to give you feedback, please respond. Oh, but here's why they don't respond, Donald, is because you look at the other other survey tools out there, they're 75 questions long, and all the guy wanted to tell you was that you didn't put in the fry sauce.

Right? And then.

And then the managers, it's like, okay, well, I want you at the end of your shift to go to the back, get on the computer, log into your account, go to the website, click on Feedback, scroll down, and then hand the review responses to all of the. It's like, are you kidding me? Yeah, just put it on their phone, let them click three buttons, and respond to that guest.

That's the way to do it. Yeah. So, yeah, Ovation. I mean, there's. Honestly, there's. There's a few tools out there in the restaurant world. I recommend 100, Ovation is one. I recommend 110. Because I'm telling you, it will help you manage the guest. We gotta maintain that guest connection. We gotta manage our brand reputation. And we have to do it fast. We have to do it faster than what people think. You can't. Like, I'm telling you, great intentions are good. And I know a lot of restaurant owners, like, you know, you get that alert or you get that notification, you got that bad thing. You know, I'll do it later tonight. And then later tonight happens and you forget, and then it's the next day, and then, by then, I'm telling you, man, within a couple hours, that person's actually, they're getting even. Just, like, see, they don't care. There's a thing, psychology called confirmation bias. And what happens is when we get this perception in our head, like, they don't Care. They don't give a shit. Next thing I know, I'm starting building up those perceptions in my head, and then I'm starting looking for clues that reinforce my belief.

Yep.

By not responding now, I start thinking, yeah, they don't care. They don't give a shit. And even if you do respond a day or two days later, now, I think you're not being sincere because it wasn't immediate.

And one thing that we've seen that's fascinating is the number one response. And we get this over and over and over again from the guests. So let's say Donald comes into Zach Shack. I forgot your fry sauce.

You.

You give me this feedback. And we've designed Ovation such so that you, Donald, as the customer, aren't necessarily expecting a response. Now, when I send you a text message, I click my three buttons through the Ovation app and you get a text message. The number one thing that we get back from the Donalds of the world, the customers of the restaurants, is, wow, I didn't think anyone read this, much less will respond.

Yeah.

And so you have this opportunity to surprise and delight them. And it's an avenue that without Ovation, it's really hard to give that feedback. Let me give you a couple examples. So I was eating at one of my favorite pizza places, and I hadn't eaten there in a while, and there were. When I walked in, I looked behind the counter and there were, you know, two new people in the kitchen, because you could see the kitchen, and a new person at the register. So I didn't know anyone that was there, even though I've been there numerous times. And I got one of my favorite dipping sauces at this place, and it was so watered down. Right. It was like. It was just like. Like literally just water. It was supposed to be this creamy sauce.

Yeah, yeah.

Where am I going to give that feedback?

Yeah.

Right. I'm already home. Who am I going to tell? How am I going to tell them? The owner is never going to find out.

Right.

You know, the staff might not even know, much less they're not going to tell anyone. And so that's part of the problem, is that there's nowhere to give that feedback. Now, on the flip side, one of our customers got a piece of feedback. They were sitting there and, you know, one. One day, right at the end of lunch rush, they got in a piece of Ovation feedback, and it said, you know, I've been coming here a long time, and your portion sizes seem to be getting smaller. It's A little bit frustrating. And he was like, my portion size are getting smaller. You know, he's got about six locations.

Yeah.

And so he immediately calls this. Calls the store and says, hey, why did someone just say the portion sizes got smaller? I see here on the Ovation app that they ordered the chicken falafel, and they're like, well, we didn't. You know, the portion sizes aren't smaller. He goes, well, go check. What. What measuring scoop are they using for the chicken? Turns out they were using the wrong size measuring scoop for the chicken.

And.

And so this person who was a loyal customer found, you know, realized that it was getting smaller, but it wasn't that. It was just an honest mistake. So he was able to correct the issue, use Ovation, text this person back, explain the situation, apologize, and gave her a $10 gift card. And her response was, you've got me for life. Yeah, I. I am. I am a fan for life.

See, that's how you build raving fans. That's how you build loyalty. People are always talking about, you know, driving traffic. Driving traffic. We see, you know, and you. And I know tons of marketers, you know, drive traffic. Drive traffic to my place. You know, I. I always say, you know, what, if you took just as much energy and effort to keep the customers that are coming now and make them loyal fans, they won't go to other places, no matter what kind of discounts or coupons they have, because they're going to be loyal to you because of that kind of stuff like that. Because you care. Because I think Ovation is a great tool to show people that, you know, what? I give a about my restaurant, and I give a about you as my customer. And I'm so honored you came and decided to spend money with me that I appreciate the feedback and I want to reward you for thinking, you know, for actually helping me run a better restaurant.

How's this stat? If somebody gives you feedback and you respond with an offer, you, that person is 22% more likely to come back within the next 30 days. Right. That feedback is what. Is what drives that. And data shows that it is five times more expensive to get a net new one customer than to keep a customer.

Exactly.

And yet I've seen data that, you know, anywhere between 70 to 80% of your guests will not come back after a first visit. Now, now, you tell it to restaurateurs, Donald. And what do they say? No, no, everyone. Everyone comes back.

Yeah, they think everybody comes back. No, it's not.

The truth is that they Don't. Now, there are a few very loyal people that talk to you every single time. So it seems like you've got cheers going on and everyone's coming back into your neighborhood bar. But at the end of the day, you got to realize there's a lot more tickets than those few loyal people.

I'm going to say right now, I'm going to put. I would say if I had to put my money on attraction or retention, I'm going to put my money on retention. And I win every time. Long game. Because you know why it's going to play out longer and better for me longer term? Because repeat customers spend more, they're more frequent, they tell their friends they actually are. More word of mouth. They promote my brand besides me. And also too, when I talk about attraction retention, I'm not just talking about guests. Talk about your team, too. I'm talking about retention. As far as employees, everyone's going through this thing. And I go, I can't find anybody. It's hard to hire people. You know what? If you focus on retention just as much as you did on hiring people, you probably have a better operation.

I think that is absolutely true. And it's one of those things where every single. Our mission and innovation is to enable businesses to measure, build and maintain trust. And that's really what it comes down to. I set an expectation with every. Or, you know, every restaurant will set an expectation with their social media, with the pictures they post, with the ads they do, with their signage in the front of the store. Here is our brand promise. Everything that you do is communicating to the guest or to the potential guest who you are. And the experience is either going to validate that or they're going to feel like they had the wool pulled over their eyes and that they were lied to. And that's when you get into danger. And that's why you talked about loyalty. People ask us, are we a loyalty company? And no, we've got great partners who do awesome loyalty. What we are is an experienced company and we want to help. And that experience is what creates loyalty. Not getting the 10th Frappuccino for free, That's. That's not loyalty.

No, that's not loyalty. That's addicted to the coupon.

Yes.

Yeah.

And that's not that 11th Frappuccino. I hate to break it to you, for anyone who has a punch card, they would have come in anyway. No one, no one is driving behavior based off of punch cards.

No, no, I hate to tell you that, too, but, you know, and we talk about. And you've been in the restaurant business before, and, you know, and you, you're like me. You know, we're still very active in the restaurant industry. I mean, I'm at restaurants all the time. I have clients all around the world. Leadership, to me is real critical. What do you think is probably the number one trait that leaders need today?

Great question. I think that there's this twofold mentality of it. One is today, leaders need to listen. They need to listen, and then listening is great, but I have to pair it with one other thing, do something about it. Because you have to listen to your customers, you have to listen to your employees, you have to listen to what the market is doing, and then you got to react to that and do something with it to create a great experience for your guests, to create a great atmosphere for your employees, and to make sure that your company and your restaurant is up to mark with what's going on in the industry, you can't afford to get left behind anymore. And today the status quo is moving forward. Like, grab onto it. Figure out what that is.

Right? Both hands, grab on. Hold on tight. Do not let go. We're going forward, man.

Yeah. And I see that there's a lot of people, you know, as you talked about, both in the restaurant industry. It's, you know, there's a lot of strong personalities in this industry and a lot of people who think that they know. Well, look, you ask, you could sit there in dreamland and imagine that every single employee would just. Just loves you and is raving to their guests, raising me, raving to their friends about you. But, like, look, they're not. Ask them. Right? You could think that every customer is loving you, but when it comes down to it, and you get those, like, you know, one or two negative Yelp reviews every week, and those three or four one star reviews from Google every week, you're like, oh, well, those are the idiots. Listen to them. Right? And when you open your ears and you are willing to be wrong and you're willing to change, I think that's when everything changes for you. And, you know, one thing that I do here at Ovation is I'll ask my employees for feedback on how I'm doing.

Right?

When we have our one on one discussions, it's not just around, hey, here's my evaluation of you, because who do I work for? I work for the people that are here at Ovation because I really do care about, go figure, Feedback.

Perfect. Perfect. So I'm a big, huge believer in self care, what do you, what do you do for self care for yourself? I mean, you run a company. What do you do to make sure you're at your best?

So I, I take time every single day to journal. That's something I haven't missed a day of journaling in eight years. And I was fairly consistent before that. So I'm a big journaler. And I, I also, you know, I, I, I'm a big reader. Especially with like for me personally, not, you know, not to get too personal, but like scripture for me is, is a big thing. Like that's something I, I read every day. And then lastly is massages. I am an avid believer. Everyone needs a good massage at least every other month. That's like massages.

All right, I'm gonna put it on my list.

What a good detox. You know what I mean?

Good detox actually.

Yeah, and I bought, I bought like a foot massager. Not, not one of the ones that like squeeze your foot. One of the ones you put down and it's like aggressive. That has been really nice because you know, you're on your feet all day, you're walking around, you're doing stuff. And anyway, especially after a trade show, I've actually, I've actually tried to pack one of those in my carry on before. But it like literally takes up the whole carry on.

You know, you're allowed to carry ons. Just.

It'S also kind of heavy. But anyway, that, that's, that's, yeah, massages is just like great detox.

So you know, you go to a lot of restaurants. What's, what's the, what would you say? And I know I'm going to ask you to like search that, you know, the utmost deep recesses of your memories. What's the best meal you ever had?

Oh, you know, I, I don't know if I could think of like the best meal. Well actually, I take that back. I, so I did lent one year with my like our first year that we got married. Yeah, my wife and I did lent and so we gave up sugar and on that Easter Sunday we had like Oreo cake balls and this like delicious butter baked sandwich and monkey bread and like just because I think of like going, going to whole landscape, it was, yeah, no sugar. But in terms of like restaurants, you know, we have, we work with so many amazing, amazing restaurants and, but I think one of my favorite, I love, I have clinically induced food add.

Oh, you and me both, we talked about this. We were in Vegas.

Yeah, that's right. Add man, I cannot eat a burger by myself. Like, I can't eat a single meal by myself. I can't eat. If I get something, I like to have, like, 14 little things as opposed to, like, one big thing. And so I love buffets, and we work with some great buffets, like chuckarama. But I think one of my favorite buffets in the world is down in Vegas. It's called Bacchanal. And it is like, there's documentaries about this place, and when you go, and usually you'll be like, hey, there's, like, five things I got that were pretty good. And, like, you know, six things I got that were okay, and five things that were, like, over there. Bacchanal. There were, like, seven things that I ate that I couldn't even speak, you know, that it was just. It was just so. Oh, so beautiful.

That's transcending. It's transcending, man.

And what? I guess one more thing. Five Napkin Burger. Out in New York City, I had one of their burgers one time, and I literally. I was sitting down with the owner, and I took a bite of the burger, and I stopped, and I was like, I am so sorry. And this is, like, one of my first dinners in New York City. This was my first dinner New York City after the pandemic. And I. I literally had tears in my eyes. The burger was so good. It was emotional. It's like, food is like art, you know? Like, when I was in Amsterdam and I saw Rembrandt's the Night Watch for the first time in person, it was like tears came to my eyes. The first time I heard Pachelbel's Canon, it was like, oh, my gosh. How could music be this beautiful? Like, when I had a bite of that burger, it was like, I, I. It was beautiful.

So anyway, napkin now. Now I'm putting five napkin on my. You know, I always ask that question to my guests because I make a hit list of places I'm gonna go. Yeah, yeah, I'm gonna definitely. Now my mouth's watering now I want a burger.

Oh, yeah. And if. If you are back east, you should also try Sticky's got, like. If you're into chicken fingers.

Yeah, yeah.

Stickies is amazing. Love them. And then also going along with fried chicken, I was back east. I was thinking about Garden Catering. That is, like, a brand that's been around since the 70s. Oh, wow. Like, amazing chicken. And then they have something called Potato Cones. That's like fried mashed potatoes. And anyway, phenomenal. Phenomenal.

Killing Me now. I'm getting hungry, man. All right, I'm writing those down. Those are good. Those are good ones.

I know. We could literally just do an hour.

Just talking about restaurants we've been to that we love. Yeah. So let me get back on track here about who, who are some of your mentors?

You know, Rev Ciencio, I know that he's a good mutual friend of ours. He's awesome. I think he's. He's always got some great ideas. Jimmy Frisling, Michael Schatzberg. You know Shatzi from Brandon Strategic. They're investors and advisors. And Sean Walcheff, he's a customer and super incredible. Oh, my gosh. He's. He's incredible. Someone that, like, an absolute must follow. If you know Scott. Let's see. Scott Porter of San Dieblo Churros. He is someone, like, such an inspirational guy to follow. And just. He is. If you take an energetic person who's at like a 9, this guy wakes up at an 11, like, he is just spitfire. And then some of that I meet with every single week. Former CIO of Burger King, Popeyes, Tim Hortons, she was at Hard Rock Cafe and, you know, Planet Hollywood, and she's with Union Square Hospitality Group now. But Kelly McPherson, she is someone who has been such an incredible help and so wicked smart and just an unbelievable understanding of hospitality and technology. We actually helped her write a book called table for 10. That is a great book. Actually. If anybody wants it, they can just email me. I'm happy to send them a free copy of table for 10. But yeah, I'll give you my. My email address at the end. And yes, and happy, happy to give out that book. It's a great book. And she. Yeah, Zach Z A c k@ovationup.com Cool.

Free book.

Yeah, it's a really good one. She interviews 10 different technology providers and really gets their deep dive on the space. Not just not like their solution, but when it comes to restaurant feedback, it's like I may not know as much about, you know, a different sector of the restaurant, like, for example, the, you know, the point of sale or like, you know, the task management. But man, you talk about restaurant feedback. I could talk to you for weeks on end without taking a breath of all the things that I've seen of all of our clients, of all the things that have worked, haven't worked. And happy to share any of that. But anyway, so she interviews 10 different CEOs of hospitality companies and it just summarizes her findings in that book.

So let me ask you another question. How important do you think is having a mentor?

I think it is absolutely critical. Tony Robbins talks about this. You know, Tony Robbins has a coach.

And I think that everyone needs a coach.

And I think that to be able to have that step back and someone who is not so in the weeds. I was driving one time, I was on a road trip with someone, and I took off my sunglasses because it was getting kind of dark. We were going cross country, and I had the same car for, like, five years at the time. And I'm like, man, I don't know what to. Where do I put my glasses? Like, can you hold these for me? He goes, why don't you put them in your glasses holder? And I was like, my what? And he pushes the button in my glasses compartment, comes down. I'm like, oh, my gosh. And I was like, this is why you need coaches and consultants, is because when you get so close to things, you can't even see that. And. And you don't have the time to see how are 50 other people doing it. And so that's why I think having a coach, having a mentor is so important. And, you know, I gave off a few of them. I've got lots of coaches and mentors and people that I go to for different, very specific things because I think it's just critical.

Yeah, yeah. No, I. I still have the same business coach I've had since 2009. So.

Yeah, like, find some of that works for you.

Yes, to my growth and my development that I can't live without it. So. So if I had to ask you, or actually, if I had to ask your wife, if you had a warning label, what would your warning label say?

I think. I think it would be. He really does have two speeds asleep. And Zach, like. Yeah, he. He doesn't. I don't really have much of, like, a calm gear.

Super good.

Yeah. Yeah. Like, very sensitive gas pedal.

Beware my morning. My morning label would be. Do not put on speakerphone. I always get in trouble. You're not speaker. I told you, don't ever put me on speaker. I'm gonna drop some F bombs. You know that? I am. I'm going to. That's just who I just warn people. I was like, do not put me on speakerphone. If you do, just understand. You knew. You took full responsibility.

You knew what I was when you picked me up.

You knew I was. When you. When you got on the call with me. You know what I'm gonna say. So as Far as social media, what's your favorite social media platform today?

I have been such a big user of LinkedIn and LinkedIn has actually introduced me a lot to Clubhouse. I've loved Clubhouse. It's been great to connect with people. I found a lot of podcast guests on the Clubhouse. But you know, LinkedIn has been a great tool to actually, you know, for people posting, hey, I'm on Clubhouse at this time. That's been cool. But I find that LinkedIn is a great way to connect with other like minded people and I love being able to get a glimpse into their history. Like that's one of the things I love about LinkedIn is I can. No other social media platform gives you that. Yeah, that gives you that like quick insight to what's going on and who they are. And I love that because I love getting to know people.

Have you used that app that's on LinkedIn called Crystal Knows?

No.

Oh, okay. You gotta learn. You gotta get this thing called Crystal Knows. It's an app that actually when you, when you sign up for Crystal Knows and you're on LinkedIn, I can actually see what your behavioral profile is, your disc profile, then it lets me know how I should talk to you.

Interesting.

It's called Crystal Knows. I love it. I use it on. Yeah, Crystal Knows. That's great. It's a great app. I love it. It's also great for like restaurants that want to kind of like, you know, if I'm looking for a restaurant manager, my go to recruiting tool is LinkedIn, you know. Yeah, because I, I actually, when I say recruiting, I mean actively going on LinkedIn. Like if I say I'm coming to, you know, I'm going to San Antonio and I'm working for a restaurant, I need to find a general manager. I'm on LinkedIn looking for restaurant managers that live in San Antonio and I'm sending in to them. I'm actively recruiting, saying, hey, I saw your profile on LinkedIn. Not sure if you're looking to make a change. I'm putting together, you know, award winning team in this new place, new concept. Just wondering if you had 20 minutes to talk to me. Yeah, you'd be shocked how many great people I find on LinkedIn just by actively recruiting and getting out there and asking for them. If like, hey, I'd love to talk to you, man.

Yeah, it's, it's all about that hand to hand combat. It's, it's really hard to spray and pray nowadays, right? No, you gotta go in there with, with a Scalpel, not the shotgun.

Right. Going hard, Rough. Yes. So, you know, you and I, and you and I talked about this a little bit in Vegas about culture. You know, I think, of course, to me, you know, culture is like the secret sauce. What would you say is like, the key to creating culture and maybe use some examples in your own. Your own business. And what have you done to really help create culture? And what kind of culture do you really like? What do you think? How important is culture?

Number one, I think culture is what keeps people around. Right. And you can fake culture in an interview. And so I kind of stay away from, hey, here's our, like, you know, this is who we are as a culture in the interview process because, like, anyone could say anything they want to. Right. But when it comes down to it, I think it's really important that for me, I love getting to know people. And so I have one on ones with every single person at this company because that, to me is part of our culture of I want you to know that I care about you and that I want to learn about your life, and I want to make sure that if there's ever anything, yes. You have a manager that you can talk to. But I mean, I'm here too. Right. And I love how you talked about, you know, it's the. The boss works for the employees. The employees, you know, the boss works for the managers. The managers work for the employees. The employees work for the customers. Not. Not the other way around. Right.

Usually the way it flows, if I walked into any restaurant and I asked, who do you work for? They usually recommend. They usually say their supervisor totally as backwards how it should be.

Yep. And I think that is just. I think I really, really loved when you learning that from you. And I think that, you know, innovation. One of the things that we do is we always try to empower the employees to give them the choice and to give them opportunities to do things that are building value for the brand, for our customers, for each other, for the industry. So one of the things that we actually do is we want to express. We like to express gratitude to people. So I do something every single month. Every employee innovation has a bonus that they give. And what we do is we, at the end of the. At the beginning of the month, we do a recap. You know, I like to show them, hey, here's exactly where we're at with ovation. Here's the revenue here, the customers. Here are some wins, here are some losses. Like, let's like, get everything out in the open so I want everyone to know what's going on. And then what we do is we do, you know, something called give an ovation. And there's a form that they fill out, and then I read it out. You know, Donald is giving someone an ovation for exhibiting one of Ovation's five values. Let's say, the value of, you know, celebrate or be a partner. And here's what I saw someone do. And you basically, like, want to catch people doing good, and then. And then that person will get a cash bonus right there on the spot. And the cash, though, it's kind of fun because then they could put that money into a pot, and we spin a big wheel, and if they could either keep the money or they could put it into a pot and turn the whole pot. So anyway, that's. That's what we do at Ovation. One of the things that we do as part of our culture to celebrate, to express gratitude, is we want people to catch others doing good and then celebrate those. Those good things that they're doing.

Yeah, I wish more restaurants would do that, too. That's a great thing. It's one of the things I would say. There's five things I would say all my clients have five things they preach about all day. I would say your job as an. As an owner or leader in a restaurant is to be a preacher. You talk about your mission, your core values, your vision. You talk about your standards, expectations, and then you're always talking about words of affirmation or appreciation. I'm looking. Always looking for the good. That's why I have all my clients doing all the time. But I want to. I want to kind of follow up on. You mentioned the word brand. A lot of times when people. I think people use the word. When you talk about culture, a lot of people think culture and brand are the same thing. I have a very simple definition about what the difference is. Brand, to me, is what your guests say about you, your online reviews, stuff like that. Culture is what your team says about you to their friends, their family. So I would say you need both. And they actually feed each other. You know, I need my brand because I need. You know, I need to know what the guests say, not only just to me or what they say on online, but when they say their family, what they say, their friends, when they, hey, I heard you went to that, you know, Zach Shack and stuff like that. Howard the Fries. You know, I want to know what they say. But then also, too, to me, culture is like, what does your team say? Yeah, to their family? What do they say to their friends?

I love that, Donald. I think that is. That is a great distinction to think about it. And however you want to, like, bifurcate that, I think it is critical that you realize that you have to work on your staff. There's. There's a great professor, Scott Sampson, and he talked about how. And this is also in Tim Ferriss for our Workweek, where, you know, he gave his employees the power to solve problems up to a certain dollar amount of. And they were able to help the customers. The customers were happier, but as a result of the customers being happier, the employees were happier.

Exactly.

And if the employees are always worried about, like, am I doing it? Like, can I do this? Can I not do this? It's like, look, just give them some latitude. Let them make the customers happy. Warby Parker. I got some glasses from Warby Parker. I. I've been texting back and forth with them, and it's so easy to text them and to be like, hey, I got some glasses. I don't like them. Oh, Zach, I am so sorry that they don't look good. I'll tell you what, I am expediting a new pair of glasses for you. How does this Paris look? Oh, yeah, that one looks cool. Awesome. It's going to be there in five business days. Is that cool? Yeah. Don't worry, Zach. I got your back. And this is all through text message with a giant company. And I think that's the level of engagement that we have to get to. And, and that's the thing that as we, as we work more to make our employees lives easier and better and enable them and empower them to make the guests happy, they are in turn going to be happier because that's why they're there. Yes, they're there for a check, but they could have gotten a check from a call center. Why are they in a restaurant? Because there's some aspect of them that likes the service mentality of it. And so let them serve.

I buy. I buy all my protein powders and supplements from a company called First Pharm, Andrew Frisella's company. I buy all my supplements. And the thing they got me for loyalty is, number one, every time I place an order with them, they always send me a message, personal message, afterwards, after I place the order. Number two, when I open, when the box comes, I open the box. Invoice has a handwritten note thanking me from the person who packed the box.

Oh, my gosh.

I mean, think about how restaurants could change if, like, let's say every time you're doing a takeout delivery or catering, you put like a little note in there, a little handwritten note. You know what I wanted to say? We really appreciate your business. Thank you so much.

Do you know C.G. ramirez from Doghouse? So he's one of our customers. Incredible guy. I was just speaking with him on a panel at the Ghost Kitchen conference in Dallas. And brilliant markerations mind where he's able to take marketing operations and just smash them together into the one unit that they need to be in a restaurant. And one of the things that they do at Doghouse is they'll give like a free side or a few extra, like some, some fries, like a small order of fries or something like that with a note being like, hey, just wanted to say thank you.

That's so cool.

And those are the things that turn a guest into a raving fan.

Exactly.

Those little things where it's like unexpected, you know when you get that, like, you get that little tingle in the.

Heart and you're like, oh man, hey man, that's cool.

Doghouse man, I'm all about that.

So, listeners of the show today, what I would propose out to you is like, what could you do that could be like a little, little extra that no one else in your market is doing? What could you do? Like just like takes you over the top. Number one should get ovation, but number two, number two, you could like, I mean, little handwritten notes and stuff like that are easy, easy. That's low hanging fruit, man. Doesn't cost you anything. Just a little bit of paper. I mean, you can even do it on posting notes. I mean, come on, you want to get really low tech.

Yep.

But speaking about tech, what, what was, I know you're a big tech guy, so what's, what's your number one kind of tech hack?

I, I, this is going to sound like. So maybe it's, maybe it's old by this point, but honestly, QR codes, like this is something that we have been using QR codes for years now. And like, if you don't have a bag stuffer with a QR code on it, you are missing out.

You are totally missing out. Please explain what you mean by a bag stuffer.

You know, like a bag drop. I mean a little piece of example.

Right, Just a bag stuffer.

Yeah, a piece of paper that has something for them to do that explains what the QR code is, where they're going. For us, we have, you know, designs of bag stuffers and with QR codes that get them to leave feedback. You know, we say two questions to enter for $100 gift card, two questions to get $5 off your next order, whatever it is. And it's that simple. But people do it. They do it because, you know, everyone's used to it by now.

I don't have to pick up my phone. I have to go to a website. I open the camera app, I point to the QR code, automatically uploads it.

Bing, bada boom. It's just so. So anyway, it's. It's very low tech, but I just, you know, like, I tell people, like, baggy pants and boy bands, QR codes are back, baby. And this time, you know, they're here to stay. They're gonna be around for a long time.

Yep. That's again, you know, making technology work for you, making it so it's easy for the guests to do business with you. That's the biggest thing we think we're talking about.

Yes.

Make it easy for the guests to do business with. Make it communicate with you. Make it easy for you to give feedback. That's what you want to do.

Amen.

So, you know, I've never, ever seen you stressed before, but I'm sure you do get stressed. How do you deal with stress?

Hot tubs.

Hot tubs, Massages.

Well, I genuinely though, like, hot tubbing, to me, is. Is like, you know, spiritual meditation. I love warm water. I love it. And especially when I go to, like, these public hot tubs, and I can get a chance to, like, chat with other people in the hot tub.

Yes.

I don't know. I just think it's so much fun. So, like, going to the gym, sitting in the hot tub, chatting it up with people, and. I know, look, just. If you see me on an airplane, don't worry, guys. Like, I'm the kind of person who does watch a movie, and I keep to myself on an airplane, but with a hot tub, it's like, hey, we're gonna be here for a few minutes. Yeah. But it's not gonna be that big of a deal, you know, Anyway, so. So just to let you know, don't.

Don't, like.

Yeah, don't move seats on Southwest if, you know, I'm in a new room.

Yeah. So when you were a kid, what did you want to be when you grew up? I didn't think you probably just, like, you know, I can. I can't see you, like, seven, eight years old, saying, you know what? I want to have a tech company.

No, honestly. Okay, this is gonna sound like anyway, you. You're probably gonna say, oh, okay, I can see that. I wanted to be one of those guys on QVC selling crap.

Oh, my God, really?

That was my dream. I wanted to be on whatever people brought in front of me. Like, I wanted to be on qvc. Like, I wanted to be the pitch guy. That's what I wanted to do. And you know, that was like one of my dreams. That was probably like the. The thing I wanted to do for the longest in my life was, was be a QVC pitch guy. And, you know, a big part of me secretly still wants to do that.

It might happen, man. You never know. You never know. You might still get a calling part time job for you.

Yeah, exactly.

Well, everyone knows, you know, I have a podcast. Of course you have a podcast. Tell them about the Ovation podcast.

Give Innovation, a podcast for restaurants. We find industry experts to share their secrets to grow your business.

There you go.

I think it's available on all of the major podcasting things. Yeah, so just type in give innovation.

Stitcher Radio, Google FM, Google everything, Google podcast.

You can go to ovationup.com and we have a resources tab that has my. Our podcast and our articles. We've got over 100 episodes with people such as Donald Burns.

I know, I've been on your podcast.

Yeah, yeah, it was, it was an awesome episode. The head of innovation for Brinker international, the former CIO of Kelly McPherson, she's been on the podcast as well. Just interviewed head of restaurants over at Nathan's Famous. Anyway, we've got some incredible guests that have come on this, on this podcast, and they are sharing just knowledge bomb after knowledge bomb. So anyway, and the nice thing is we keep it to about 15, 20 minutes. It's like super short. So as you're like cutting up your carrots in the morning, put on Giving Ovation.

And also you can head over to ovationup.com if you're like, you know, this Ovation thing sounds pretty cool, but I need to see it in action. Zach's team will be more than happy to give you a demonstration of what it can do and how it can help make your restaurant make your life a little bit better. So speaking of that, what book, audiobook or podcast do you recommend?

There is a book by a guy named Clayton Christensen. How will you measure your life? And it is such a beautiful book. And along that same line is a book called Man's search for meaning by Viktor Frankl, Victor Frankl.

That's a great one.

Oh, those are two incredible books. Because the way they look at it is, as Viktor Frankl says, the man who has a why to live can bear with almost any how.

That's the truth.

You can sit there and make money your entire life, but unless you know why you're really making that money and what you want to do with it, and how are you measuring success in your life? What does any of it matter?

Right?

None of this matters. Unless it matters. You could climb up the ladder as high as you can go and guess what team. And if it's leaning against the wrong wall, it doesn't matter how high you went. Right? And that's. That's one of the biggest issues, that people just want to climb ladders. And it's like, take a step back and figure out what wall you want to be climbing up and then go find a ladder.

Exactly. So what would be a. What's one of your favorite quotes besides that? Viktor Frankl one.

So. So my life mantra is, choose to live an extraordinary life when ordinary one will always be waiting. You could always go do something ordinary. So try something extraordinary. Go for it. Because if you want to get to the end of your life being like, ah, man, I could have done so much stuff if I just. But I just didn't want to leave that really safe, cushy job. No. And look, you have. You have restaurants listening to this. Some of the wildest, craziest people in the world are restaurant owners and operators, and I love them for that because they're doing something crazy. Who in their right mind opens up a restaurant? I love that there are people with such passion that they do it against all odds, and they make it, and they make it because they want to do something extraordinary. They want to make people like me cry over a burger.

Right?

Like, I love that. And I think that that is something where. That's one of my favorite things about this industry, is the people and how passionate they are and that they are choosing to do what is extraordinary for them. They left their legal firm behind. They went against their mother's wishes and dropped out of med school. And, like, they have a taco shop and freak. Man, that's exciting. That's great. I'm. I love meeting those people. And it just energizes me, every step, every stuff.

And one of my favorite quotes is over my shoulder in my office. It's a from Mario Andretti. If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough.

I love that.

That's my favorite one. For restaurant owners, everything's under control. You're just not going fast enough, man.

Just let her rip.

Let her up. Grip it and rip it, right?

Amen.

Those golfers out there, just grip it and rip it, baby. So they can. People can reach out to you. They can email you either@zach ovationup.com yep. Check out on your podcast, or they can head over to ovationup.com, get a free demo. Check out the resources page there. Zach, it's been a pleasure, man. An honor having you on the show today. Thank you so much for, number one, your passion, number one, your sense of humor, and number two, for really, really trying to. You have such a dedicated commitment to making restaurants better, you know, through technology. And I think that's really. It's admirable and commendable, and I really. I really respect you so much for all that you do for restaurants.

So, dude, appreciate it, Donald. And. And I'm grateful that there are people like you out there who are getting out the good word, helping restaurants out, and. And really appreciate all that you've done for the industry, man.

Amen. Awesome.