“Ask a Therapist”: Inter-parent Battles, Teen Speak 101, and Tough Family Secrets. Expert Q&A with Dr. Skinner

Foreign. Welcome to Finding Noble, a podcast where we climb into the world of young people's mental health and where we provide support for the adults who support them. I'm your host, Carly Red. Welcome to another episode of Finding Noble. I'm with my co host, Dr. Kevin Skinner. Today we're doing another ask a therapist question and answer session with Dr. Skinner, taken from questions we have received from you listeners through different parent assessments that we have. And so today we'll just jump right into it. Dr. Skinner, are you ready?

Yeah, sounds good. I'm looking forward to these questions. Great questions and real life stuff. So that's a good thing.

Yes. And there always is a. A thread or a pattern within a lot of these questions that we receive. So it's nice to know that a myriad of parents are experiencing very similar concerns. Okay, let's start with this first one. My job's easy. All I have to do is ask the questions. Your job's the hard one.

The hard one is actually the people who are trying to go through this. I'm just trying to provide solutions so they get the hard part. I get the opportunity to maybe hopefully give some insight.

So good response. That's why we're asking you. Okay, fantastic. Here we go. I have two questions here that are similar. One parent says, my wife and I have two very different parenting styles when it comes to disciplining our son. It is causing issues and we're not sure what to do. Can you help? Another parent says, my husband and I are both involved parents who care deeply, and both of us are very invested in our children, their lives and their development. But sometimes we get so involved and often passionately disagree on how to discipline and teach. So much so that we fight almost daily. And it's common to go to bed upset with one another. How can we keep our marriage healthy while being so consumed with family life?

All right, first let me say I. These questions are so common. I really appreciate them because it kind of gives us a feel of, I think, what a lot of parents experience. So let's go with the first question. My wife and I have two very different parenting styles. What's interesting about that is I would actually want to know what the parenting styles are. And you say they're very different. I'm going to guess that if we were to look at the end outcome, they wouldn't be that different.

Interesting.

So the end outcome. We probably want our child to mature into a human being who is accountable, responsible, works hard, helps society. I would guess that most parents want a child who will strive for that kind of an outcome. So if we look at the end goal, I'm going to guess that you might have different ways of getting there. What you're referring to your parenting styles, the end goal. We have something in common. So now we have to ask a question. Is that accurate that you both want your child to be a contributing member of society who stays out of prison or jail and is a hard worker and contributes to society? And most people say, yeah, absolutely. So now let's work from that and say, okay, you have differences. Well, of course you do. You grew up in different homes and you were parented one way, your spouse was parented another way, because, I mean, even in the same home, children aren't necessarily parented the same way.

Oh, good point.

So, yes, we. We're going to grow up in our mindset of how to parent a child. So my invitation here is to put down your weapons of your parenting approach. The language I'm gonna use here, put down those weapons and look at the outcome of what you're trying to do with your child. And then both of you step back and say, what is the most effective way to get to this place? And the answer is, maybe you're both need to change something. And so look at the outcome, because what your child's gonna do, and this is where we actually do more harm, is, is the child picks up on parental differences.

Yes, we. I've very much experienced this.

When they pick up on those differences, then they can maybe twist or tweak or put you against each other, because they're going to do it the way that they get the best outcome. So whoever the permissive parent is or the parent who's more, I don't know, whatever you want to say here, more giving, more flexible is going to be very different than the parent who is more rigid or more strict or more intense. And so the child is going to recognize it's the environment. And again, if you're thinking about what's best for your child, you want your child to have an environment where they feel that there is unity in your marriage. So you're going to need to make sure as parents that you have identified, you know, yes, we have differences. You might not like your spouse's tone of voice. Maybe they're too loud or maybe they're critical. If you're critical, then focus on the criticism and then come to a conclusion of what are we trying to accomplish here and have that kind of a conversation, because we know that children don't do well. None of us do well with criticism. It's not helpful. Some people say, well, what about constructive criticism? Are you criticizing your child with language that's hurtful, yelling, put downs, those types of things? We need to leave them out of parenting. It doesn't matter our approach, that's just not effective parenting. Now, the outcome is a very different thing. The outcome we're trying to get at is we want our child to feel loved. Would we all agree on that? We want our children to feel loved. Yes. So how do you do that? Because children are going to be defiant by nature. Children are going to be defiant. They're going to push the envelope. They're going to say no. I mean, you think about between the late twos, early threes, you're going to hear more no's from a child at that age. But you also see it in teenagers. They're trying to push the envelope to see how far they can do things. That's just the way children are. And so my answer to the question is, while you say there are two different parenting styles, it would be very helpful if both of you would pause and reflect on what that actually means and look at the outcome. Create an environment that you want your child to thrive in. That's a self reflection. I want my child to thrive, I want them to grow, I want them to experience positive things. And so how do we best do that? And you may say, well, my spouse needs to do XYZ or my spouse is too soft, my spouse is too hard. That's usually the conflict we see in parenting. Again, can we focus on what message we're trying to send to children? How do we most effectively do that? And I'm going to tell you the answer. The answer is children do the best when they feel loved, when they feel heard, and they're given feedback, constructive feedback of things. Hey, we want to talk about this. Let's talk about it in a way where we're having a conversation because ultimately we want our children to be able to spread their wings and take responsibility for themselves. That should be our end goal, is they're taking responsibility for themselves and we're not trying to dictate their lives. And so I know that's maybe a lot of concepts in there, but my first start there is it's causing issues between you and your spouse. You guys need to pause, reflect and deal with those issues so you can have a concerted effort to have a joint message to your child.

What does that practically look like? Does that look like removing yourself and saying, hey, kids, we need to go and talk this through in another room to get on the same page before we talk to you. Because I think so much of the time we throw out these extemporaneous consequences or acts of discipline such as give me your phone or you're grounded tomorrow or you can't talk to your mom like that. You don't get to go to your friend's house tonight. But if you don't agree on the consequence or you don't agree on the discipline, then instead of it being about a rumble between you and your child, all of a sudden it shifts. A rumble between you and your spouse.

Yeah.

What does that look like? Where do you go? Are these talks beforehand? Because I think we're always dealing with new things in the moment. Right. And it's not always easy to remove yourself. Or we have a lot of other. We have a lot of kids that we're trying to teach.

Yeah. So I think what you're describing there is something that is very common, is in the heat of the moment, rarely do we handle things well.

Yes.

And so an adult timeout phrase. We use an adult timeout. We give children timeouts. Right. Go to your room, take a break.

Right.

But we as adults sometimes need to do that, or in that moment, we need to have an agreement when we are going to apply a consequence. And that's a, you know, I want to give my children as little consequences as possible. I don't want my children to have a ton of consequences. I want my children to learn how to govern themselves. So I might even turn that around. It's like, look, we don't talk that way to your mom. So I want you to think about that for a second. That's not okay in our home. So how are we going to do this differently? Right. Because the other is a punishment in contrast with it being a punishment I want to focus on. I want them to think about, wait, this is not acceptable. Well, mom said. Wait, wait, wait, wait. Mom said. Why did your mom say that? Why does this matter to her? You're trying to stay with the child in the emotional experience. Because if I just throw out. You're not going to take this away. I'm going to take away your phone. I'm going to take away this, I'm going to take away this. I'm going to take away this. Your children are going to become resentful.

Okay.

Right. That's just the way they're going to be resentful. And so what we end up doing there is we creating resentment rather than Educating and helping them learn about the behavior we're trying to modify or change. And that's what we want. We want to modify the behavior. We don't talk to your mom that way. We don't talk that way to each other in this home. We don't. Right. We respect each other. And so I want you to think about that when that happens and you're feeling that. And obviously this is important to you, son or daughter. This is obviously important to you. So let's talk about what you're really trying to say here, and let's do it in a way that's meaningful but not hurtful.

I love that. Modify. I really like that word modify. Rather than just dish out consequences for, hey, you did this wrong, now you get a consequence. You get this wrong, now you get a consequence. Because I think. I think I'm very guilty of that, to be honest.

Well, I think we all were. But the concept here is course correction in the moment.

Okay? Right.

Because I. If I can help them learn to do it in the moment, then it's going to lead to a better outcome. Because in the moment, they have instruction and feedback that's helpful. This is not okay. And so that kind of feedback is meaningful. Contrast that I send you to your room, at some point, I still have to have constructive feedback. Now I might send you to a room because it's too intense. We all need a timeout right now. That's completely okay. But we need to come back to the experience, and that's where we need to have proper information so we can talk about what happened. We need to get information from them. We need to give them information. And we ourselves might need to get more information. Like, what is the right response here? Maybe there does need to be a consequence that might even be done with a child in mind, like, especially an adolescent. They can help us define what's the best consequence for them.

I really like that. In our own experience, you know, me and my spouse are both assiduously attentive. We're ardently active and controlling over our children's lives. And I was talking to a friend over Marco Polo who lives out of state. She is now in the phase of parenting she has all young adults. And so I was kind of seeking advice, just parenting advice in general. And one of the things she said this week was, go to bed and wait till you wake up in the morning. Things are always clearer in the morning. Kind of this idea of the power of the pause. Wait until our flooded emotions or our flooded reasoning centers have died. Down. We wake up with a calmness, and we reach a place of equanimity again, almost like a rationale respite, like we're taking a break for a minute be. So we can come to this with a less flooded reaction. And I loved that. I just thought that was so good, because I. I need. I. I definitely need to just step back for a minute. So gathering more information, getting all information, especially because we often have a situation with the child coming home late from a curfew. Right. Or something. Didn't go exactly right. They forgot to pick up their sister. Something like that. Where in the moment we're about to go to bed, we're exhausted, it's been a long day. And then we'll dish out bad consequence instead of saying, hey, let's wait a minute. We'll get more information of what happened in the morning or even tonight, and we're gonna sit on it before we react.

Yeah, I think that's great advice. When our energy is low. Dr. Roy Baumeister, he wrote a book called Willpower. And in his book Willpower, he talks about a concept that you're just identifying there. When your energy is low, he calls it ego depletion. That's what researchers call it when your ego is depleted or energy is depleted. We say and do things that are usually unproductive because our energy is lower. And just as an example in the book, he refers to a case study where they ask students to do a sequence of numbers. And one group had seven numbers to remember, and the other group had two numbers to remember. And the group who had seven numbers to remember when they left, they were offered a sugary treat or a healthy one. If they had higher numbers, they were more likely to turn to the sugary treat. In contrast with those who had two numbers, they were more likely to turn to the healthier treat.

Interesting.

So when we are energy depleted, our energy's lower. It simply said we're more likely to turn to sugary treats, to frustration, to anger, to criticism, because we're exhausted. So that concept of taking a break and giving yourself a timeout and waking up in the morning, your energy is naturally higher because you've slept. You're going to see problems different. You're going to see the situation different. You might even wake up and say, it doesn't even matter.

Like, how many times have gone to bed and wake up and think, oh, I overreacted. Oh, I wish I wouldn't have said that. I wish I would have. Yeah. Handled that very differently.

Yeah. So let Me go into the second question you asked real quick. There's a part of it that's really important I want to address. And it was, you know, they're very involved in their children's lives. Sometimes we get involved and often passionately disagree. You know what? Passion is great, but it's different when we cross over the barrier to the point where we feel like we're hurting each other. And that's usually when we aren't listening and we aren't pausing enough to say, what is my partner or spouse really trying to communicate here? And to me, that's the more important question if we're going to do this effectively. What is my partner really saying here? And I have a whole how to communicate when you don't know what to say? I have a whole class on that. Oh, because people in the heat of the moment, they don't know what to do. They don't know what to say. And we really are quite poor in the heat of the moment. So there's a whole process that we need to go through to learn how to communicate when it matters the most.

That's really good. Do you have any sort of actual applicable experience or examples that could help us with what that might look like?

Yeah, so let's just go to this situation. Sometimes we get so involved, often passionately disagree on how to discipline and teach well. And just in that situation, if we went and reran or replayed the last argument, doesn't matter what the argument is. If we were just to pause on it and say, okay, I want you both to take a timeout right now, and I want you to go and identify what your core message is. What's the issue? And why is it an issue? It's what I call the what and the why. Okay, say what's the issue for me? And why is this an issue? Then we transition it into, okay, why is this important to me? And then how, what? Why, how. How do I communicate this the most effectively so my spouse can understand and hear what I'm trying to say? The same would be true in trying to communicate with my child. What's the issue? Why is it an issue? And how do I best communicate this? And at that moment, just by reflecting, I have more insight into myself rather than just going into the heat of the moment. Because when you're in the heat of the moment, you're passionately disagreeing. You're really not listening to each other. You're actually preparing to defend yourself or to say your point of view. That's how we Fight. That's just human nature. But when we pause and really reflect on what I'm trying to say and why, it's important. I'm so much more effective. You know, I know that you care about our son or our daughter. I know you do. What I was thinking about is, I know you care and why this is important to me because I see that they turn away from you and they're kind of disrespectful to you when you communicate with them that way. And I don't want them to treat you that way because I want them to see you for who you are, a good person. And it matters to me because I want them to have a good relationship with you.

That's very helpful.

So the how is what I just illustrated, right? I. I'm communicating my what, I'm communicating my why and how is in that moment, I'm trying to do it with value. I'm trying to do it with seeing the best in my spouse or the best in my child. And now we're having a meaningful dialogue rather than a heated battle.

It's interesting because as you're saying this, I'm thinking about how bad we are. Add this, as a society, we're really bad at this. We don't know how to listen without trying to respond and create our own stance, our own righteous debate because we feel so strongly about our position. Obviously, the political climate is so heated and we lack the art of listening. We really lack the art of paying attention to what someone else's experience is. And hearing you say this makes me feel like if we could do this as parents, as caregivers, to show our children how to do this, if they could see us doing this, the ripple of effect, the domino effect, would be so vast. And it really would help. I think it would really help society at large, not just within our own homes.

I agree. But I would expand it from parent, child, to marital relationships, to relationships with people that we care about, to any conversation that's meaningful to us. I think if we would really take an approach that why is this so important to me? And what am I really trying to say here? And then how do I most effectively communicate this in a validating, caring way, we're going to get better outcomes. And as a society, we need to learn to do this, because right now we're so defensive, we're so critical, and we aren't really listening to each other.

Well. And the significance of initially acknowledging, I care about you, your worth matters to me more than anything. I'm about to say right now, or more than anything, we're about to discuss that I care about you as a human being first and foremost. Let's put that on the table first and then let's continue. So if we're just saying that to our spouse, to our child, and to anyone else around us, I think that does open up an environment of active listening and. Oh, actually, maybe I do want to hear what you have to say because it might actually be coming from a place of care and concern and love.

Yeah, for sure.

Okay. Maybe I do have one more question. At the very end of this second question. It says, how can we keep our marriage healthy while being so consumed with family life? I think we could probably detach that from the first part of the question, and that could stand alone as its own question. But do you have any really quick, simple tips on how that might be possible? Because I know all people struggle with this.

Yeah. So keeping our marriage healthy when we're so busy, it. It requires. I'm gonna call em healthy rituals. Let. Let me explain what I'm talking about. So a healthy ritual are things that we do that send a message that we matter. And I think this is critical for every couple. The children need to know that your marriage matters. Let me give a few simple examples. From the time my wife and I were first married, Friday night is our date night. And there are exceptions where family come into town or it's a holiday or whatever that we don't get the opportunity. But Friday nights, our children know that we are going to go out, just the two of us, independent, no matter what. That is what we're doing. 30 years of marriage, we do that almost every week. And that's our time. That's our time to connect, to communicate, to understand, ask questions, to learn where each other's at. Extremely important time for us. And that is just one of those things I'm going to call it. That's our ritual. That's what we do. But if you're going to keep your marriage healthy, you have to nurture it. A good friend of mine, Dr. Wally Goddard, we talked about marriage. Like a garden, it has to be nurtured, Right? So. So we plant the seeds and we make sure that it has water so it can grow and be nurtured. And then we have to weed it, and we have to take out the things that aren't working. And it needs sunlight, it needs growth, and then it might be weeds come back and we need to weed it again and we need to water it, and we need to Spend time in this garden. So in truth, the fruits or the vegetables, they can grow. And marriage is no different. If we don't nurture it, if we don't take time for it, you can get so consumed by family life that it doesn't. It's no fun.

I was just going to say that I feel like a lot of us lack fun. That when you said sunshine, I just have this image of, oh, I need. We need more fun. Because. Because even when we go out, we'll still be talking about all of our kids stuff or problems that we're facing, whether at work or at home and even with extended family. And it's just. It's an added level on top of the heavy that we're already experiencing. And I think a lot of people are guilty of that, where we just need to have fun sometimes.

And I think that's the underlying thing. Regular play is really good for our marriages, but it's finding out how you guys play. It's going on a hike or going biking or canoeing, or maybe it's going to a play. I mean, literally a play, right? You're doing something that's fun. And again, there's an intentionality there. Because really, what you're saying is, I care about this relationship. This relationship matters to me. It matters.

Yeah.

And when we do that, our children, they're observing it and they're saying, oh, they care about each other. They're taking time. And that example is also generationally important, meaning it's passed down from generation to generation.

That's beautiful. Why do we do that? Why do we think it's naturally going to be fed and nurtured just by being so involved with the family that we built? Because we built this together and we're both doing it together. Why do we think that natural growth and nurture nourishment is going to occur without intentional time dedicated to each other?

I think the answer is as basic as I can be, is it's autopilot. I really believe we live Life on autopilot. Dr. Joe Dispenza, he said about 90 to 95% of the things that we think, feel, do, are on autopilot. We do it without thinking. You can't put your marriage on autopilot and not have a problem. We're not driving a Tesla. Right? I mean, literally, you have to be attentive in your marriage, because autopilot doesn't get you to the destination that you want to be. So how am I nurturing this relationship? Am I taking time for my Spouse, am I nurturing them? And are we nurturing each other? No different than are we nurturing the children. We have to take time, so to speak, to nurture and water the garden.

Well said. Okay, let's move on to the next question. I got two for you that are very similar. How do I get my child to put his wall down and talk to me? That was one from a parent. Quick one. And another one says, when attempting to talk to my teenage daughter about her feelings and how she's doing, she frequently responds, I don't know. She says it all the time. How do I help her get comfortable in talking?

All right, so rule number one, Teenagers. Yes. No, I don't know. In other words, I'm not ready to communicate about this, or I need you to break down the wall. So I'm ready to talk about this. So. So your natural response for most teenagers is going to be, I don't know that. Just expect it. That's a normal response.

Okay.

How was your day? Good. Okay. Okay. Okay. What do I say to that? So what was the best part of your day? Now, what I just did there is I gave it a direction. The best part of your day. Contrasting that with how was your day? Now, they could open up there, but generally speaking, no. So what was the hardest part of your day? Now, I. I'm again asking for direction, right? So if the wall is up, there may be a reason why. And let's say that it's a consistent pattern over a day or two. Okay? That's teenage stuff. I get you a week, two weeks, three weeks, distance. Now I'm looking at a pattern. I'm saying, okay, whoa, there's something missing here, Right? There's a wall up. Then I'm probably gonna go directly into that wall. You know, I don't know what's going on in your world lately, but it feels to me, and maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm wrong. It feels like something's going on in your world. I'd love to learn what's going on because I'm a little concerned about just what I'm observing. And not that you're doing anything wrong. I'm just concerned. Or if they've experienced anything hard, didn't do well in a test, some event that's been difficult. You know, I don't know about you, but this has been hard on me just watching you go through this. I know you work so hard in xyz and the math test didn't turn out the way you wanted it. I don't know. What are you feeling about that?

It does feel like a little bit of a conversational landmine. Like you're almost playing a game sometimes. Because I. If I were to say, hey, I'm freaking out, I'm concerned. Why are you acting like this? If I were to express how I actually felt, it would shut them down so quickly. So it does feel a little bit like a game of, hey, correct me if I'm wrong. I co. I could totally be off here. Very much like walking on eggshells. So.

So it could be right. They might say, oh, you're worrying too much. Am I? Okay, great. So what are you experiencing? How about, what are you actually experiencing? I'd love to hear.

Yeah. Yeah, right.

A penny for your thoughts, my mom used to say. Right. What is on your mind? And. And if there is, I don't know, I don't want to talk about it. You know what? That's okay. You don't have to talk about it right now. But I do care. And I want you to know that I'd love to hear more about what you're learning, what you're feeling, what you're experiencing.

That's good. So leaving the door open.

Yeah. Again, I'm not. I'm never going to force it, but I am going to leave an open.

Invitation consistent and long enough to where they actually feel like you mean it.

Yeah, for sure. For sure. And here's why. Because if they know it's in my heart, then eventually they're going to see that I care. It's actually not the conversation. They want to know that I genuinely care. And if they know that I genuinely care and I'm listening and I'm ready, I mean, that my devices are down. That means literally, my body language is, I am present with you. And that speaks volumes.

I think a lot of us are, as parents are concerned that there may have been misbehavior, and that's why they don't want to talk. But the misbehavior is causing them pain in some way. And we've talked about this in the past, but do you have a specific phrase that you would suggest using to where I could, or a parent could offer up to their child? Lately, I've been saying I care more about how you feel and more about the truth than I do about perfect behavior.

Yeah.

And. But I don't. I don't know if it's working.

Well, again, parenting is a journey. It's not a destination that we just instantly get to. We get to there over time. And we have many ups and downs, as I often say, bumps and bruises along the way. So I think to answer your questions, if you're concerned about a misbehavior, it's really an open mindedness of asking a simple question. You know, as a parent, I worry a lot. You probably know that about me. Right? Right. So now I'm just owning my stuff.

Yeah, right.

And I worry about things and I'm concerned and the things that worry me are these types of things. Would you be, would you ever tell me if that occurred? I want you to know that if you did, I would so appreciate it and I would love you. Yeah, I would want to help. But these are the types of things and types of conversations that are not easy for us to have as parents and it's not easy for our children to have with us. So sometimes that's an earned conversation. It takes time to develop that kind of nurturing, that kind of interaction where again, the concept of all human connection is safety. I have to feel safe enough in your presence that you're not going to X, Y, Z, that you're going to hear me, that you're going to listen, that you still care, that you're still going to love me. I, I think we often hold back because we're afraid of being judged. We're, we're afraid that our, our parents are going to judge us. They need to know that we are with them and we want to help and we care.

Well, that's quite profound with all relationships. Would you ever tell me if you were in pain? Would you ever tell me if something was. If X, Y and Z was bothering you but you felt like you couldn't because you thought I would be upset? I think that's really good. Very good advice. Thank you for sharing that with us. Okay. Anything else you want to touch on with this question?

Yeah, let's go. My teenage daughter, we're trying to talk with her about her feelings and how she's doing and she. I don't know. Let's talk about. I don't know. I don't know usually means I haven't thought about it yet.

Okay.

So the initial response, I don't know, you know what, that I expect, that's okay. However, let me ask you to do me a favor. Would you think about it and come back and share with me what your thoughts are? Now I've given them permission and I'm asking them to think about it and I'm asking them for commitment. Would you come back and once you've identified it. I would love to hear. Would you be willing to do that? Because I just care about you and I love you and I'm worried.

Yeah. Doors open. Leaving that door open with an invitation.

With an invitation, right.

Yes.

So again, it's. I don't know. Usually as I haven't thought about it or I don't want to talk about it, it's either. Usually one of those two things. So I'm giving you permission. That's okay. I'm. Right now, I'm not expecting you to. This is just a question that's been on my mind. I would love you to think about it and come back to me. I'd love to talk with you about it.

I just am thinking about how this requires relinquishing total despotic control over our children. Because I feel that from a very young age you almost have to have that mindset to keep them alive. You are in control of every waking, sleeping movement that they have for the most part. And so as they get older, it's really starting to understand this child is separate from me. I mean, we always talk about, is it Freud or Jung or whatever where they. A child has this moment at a certain age where they realize, oh, I am not my parent, I'm not connected to my parent. I don't know if us parents do a very good job of disconnecting from our children, oh, this child is not me. This child is having different experiences and has different thoughts and have different personality traits, all these different variables that are within them that are not me. And I have to respect them as their own person who, like you said, you offer an invitation, you leave that door open, but you're giving them their agency. You are allowing them the liberty to make choices. And as parents, I think it is really difficult to know when, what age, how we start to do that. I think that's why teenage years are so imperative, is that they naturally will let you know too much. You are suffocating me. It's too much. It's too much. I'm not you. I don't want to be you. I want to be me, which is a tough pill to swallow sometimes.

And the gift we give to our children is giving them instruction and guidance and then letting them learn through life experiences, direction, guidance, with love. And then they get to govern and learn to govern. And obviously this is done over time.

Yes.

And a 5 year old, a 10 year old, a 15 year old and even an 18 year old are going to have very different experiences. I expect much more from an 18 year old than I do from a 5 year old. Right. The cognitions are just different. But helping them make the choices, it requires more instruction as they're younger. But once they understand the principles that we're trying to help them understand how we treat each other. Respect and dignity. Just a whole list of positive traits. Right. Honesty, integrity, lifting people up and being kind. Right. These are the things that we want to instruct and help our children develop. Because again, it's the way that we help them become citizens that are going to contribute to society.

And I think that also requires not allowing your identity to be attached to the outcomes of your child's choices.

Yeah. That podcast we did earlier on that very concept. Right. How do I, as a parent, let that go? I was doing a podcast a while back, and one of the individuals, he said, the gift we give our children is independence. Letting them form their own identity, letting them learn, letting them grow, letting them know that we are here, but they are independent and we encourage and we want that. There's a phrase in relationships, if somebody loves you, you let them go. And if they come back, that means they loved you. Sometimes with children, it's a very similar concept. Right. We let these children, we love them and we let them go. And usually what happens is they come back because they free and they realize how beautiful their home environment was.

Beautiful. I feel like these have been very helpful for me today, so thank you for all your responses. Next question, Last one. Do you have time for one more?

Yeah.

Okay. This one's interesting. This question is from a child that wrote in. He says, I'm not a parent, but a child, and I believe my father has a porn addiction or is developing one. What do I do? Would talking to my mom about it be all right?

First and foremost, ouch. Right? I mean, heart rending. Yeah. Yeah, it's hard, right? I mean, I'm not a parent, but a child. My father has a problem. What's this child's experiencing is a. I. I think my father has a problem. Can I talk with my mom about it? To not do that is to keep a secret of something that you know that could be hurting your family. And it can also create issues in your parents. So this poor child is in two different spots, really difficult spots. And so my initial answer here is you intentionally have to make a decision knowing the potential outcomes. Right. My guess is mom probably knows.

Okay.

In most cases, there's instinctive feelings that when there's a secret, especially related with pornography, more often than not, a parent Knows if not, then it will become as a shock. And yet that information is going to create a shift or a change. Now you may think, ah, it's none of my business. I should just stay out of it. What's it doing to you as a child? How old are you as a child? And again, there, there is not an easy answer here. I mean, this is very complex. And so if I was asking this person a few questions, how will your dad respond? How will your mom respond? What will you do to you if you don't talk about it? These are all questions I would want to walk through with them before we conclude what the best answer is for them. For one person, it may be, yes, I'm absolutely going to tell because it's hurting my family. For other people, it's like, I don't dare. Well, I would still invite you to lean into that. Why don't you dare? What are you afraid of? And again, in most cases, I found that the parent, the other parent already does know, and now you're bringing it to them. And sometimes that's what helps create change. So my most simple, basic answer is, it depends. More often than not, I say go lean into that difficult storm, because in not doing so, I think it will actually hurt you. Let's say five years, 10 years, 20 years down the road, something because it was not addressed.

Yes.

Becomes a bigger problem. And so lean into that and say open communication when you have information like that's important.

With a child who decides not to address the situation, is there risk of rationalizing or minimizing the behavior in their own mind and maybe being prone to certain behaviors themselves?

Perhaps. But in that, that's again, we can do it with kindness, we can do it with love, we can do it with. The reason why I'm doing this is because I don't want it to hurt our family. Because I. In this question, they might have an addiction or are developing one, that there's clearly concern. Again, this child obviously knows something. How do they know it? And again, I think there's more questions that I would want to understand there. This is so complex. The type of pornography might even matter.

Okay.

Because that might have. The type of pornography, you know, still images, extreme videos, right? I mean, all of those things the child is now aware of. And again, I think bringing it to the forefront is unfortunately, as difficult as it is, in my opinion is probably the best choice.

But as a mother, I. If a child came to me and just said, look what I found. Because how does this child know this or why does this child suspected, or if, you know, a child came and said, this is what I found, I'm nervous about what this means. And instead of accusing a parent of something, but saying, I'm just presenting you the information that I already have, and now I'm going to hand it to the adults, and now you get to decide what to do with it.

And what I love about what you just said, there is, I'm staying out of this marital dyad. This is you, right? This is your issue to figure out. I'm. I want to. I'm going to stay a child. And yet that gives them an opportunity to take and be adults. But to triangulate or bring that child into it can be very hurtful or harmful to the child.

Yes. And it's not fair to them. I don't think it's fair to them at all.

Yeah, that's what we call triangulation in our field. And triangulation is generally a really difficult thing for children as they get older. They feel like they have to take sides. And if you have to choose and it's just not healthy. So to this person, I'd say, even if this was an adult, you know, mom, Dad, I want you guys to figure this out, to deal with it. I'm just giving this information to you. You might. The child might even take it to their dad.

Yeah, right.

Might go directly to dad. And I'm wondering why, if I'm the therapist there, the question I'm asking there is, why don't you bring it to your dad? Say, I think mom deserves to know this. I found this out. And that may be a completely different approach here, is going directly to dad, saying, dad, I'm going to tell mom if you don't.

Now turning towards the guilty party, the father, what is the best way to handle that? So there's less of an angry response and more of a healthy response. Shame, obviously, is a huge driver within pornography. I imagine if a child went to the mother and said, I think dad's becoming a porn addict, or he might already be one and the dad finds out about that. A good man would feel horrible to know that their child suspects that without being involved. Is there a way to handle it to where there's an underlying level of compassion, even though it's shocking, it's painful, it's hurtful, it's wrong. How is that possible? To con. To continue with healthy relationships without our relationships?

Yeah. So this is complex because the most natural response when someone is called out is to deny. And that usually Creates more problems because it's a form of deception. What we often refer to as gaslighting. Really unhealthy. Not only is it really unhealthy, but what it does is it hurts the relationship. So taking ownership is probably the best thing you can do. You know, that has been a struggle for me, and I'm sorry that it's impacted you. And you know that that's been a challenge for me. That would be one natural response. Your mom does know. Your mom doesn't know. So taking ownership, important. The other part of it, not denying it. That's the difference. Ownership versus denial. Again, usually there is denial in the beginning. Taking ownership and acknowledging it, that has been a problem of mine for years. And I'm sorry it's that you've discovered and found that out. I'm sorry if it hurts you. I've now taken responsibility. I need to talk with your mom about it. Or your mom has known for many years, and she's. She's stood by my side and she's an incredible lady. Right. Or you know what? I probably do need to talk with her because I've been keeping this a secret, and it's gonna be hard for me to do. Right. That requires maturity, and that's rarely there in the beginning.

Okay.

Rarely there. In fact, I don't know if I've ever seen that. Right. Because that requires a person to acknowledge it. And because usually it's. They're shocked into a new reality that their secret is now out. And usually shame comes up. That's why the denial. That's why the blame or excusing themselves. Or it was your brother's or it was somebody else's or. Right. And usually there's some kind of a shift into that, kind of shifting the blame elsewhere. And that's typical for shame is shifting the responsibility elsewhere.

So expect that. So if this child who wrote this message is listening, expect it to be very rare for there to be maturity on the other end. But can you give us maybe some hope of what it can look like down the road?

Yeah. Well, down the road, it's. When this person's done work, they let go of the shame. Because when you bring something out into the light, metaphorically, and out of the shadows and out of the darkness and bring it into the light, it loses its in power. It loses its intensity. So bring it into the light. And accountability and honesty and transparency is how you bring it into the light. You don't do it when it's secretive. So the hope of it is you Know, I. I need to address this. And then getting help and getting professional help, who understands how to help, especially if it's a lifelong challenge, you know, there's always hope and there's always strategies to help improve this. So, again, too, if a person's actually stuck in it, you know what? Get the help. And that kind of willingness is really a part of this whole process. I want help, and I need to get new ideas on how to change my behaviors.

That's good. Thank you. Okay, Anything else you want to address with this last question?

Well, I think this is one I could go on and on again, because what it does to the mom, the shock factor, if you are the person, and I think that's in many situations, those who are discovering it, they also need support, and they need validation. And I would encourage them to get support as well, because when you have that kind of shock, it can make you question a lot about yourself, your identity. How didn't I know? How was I so stupid? And so it can create a lot of challenges in a mom in this situation. And so if I'm the child there, it's like, I want to give this to you guys, but please get help.

Good. That's good response. Yeah, I'm. I'm asking you to go get help. That's powerful. Okay, well, thank you for being with us today, Dr. Skinner. Thank you for your wonderful preparation and experience and wisdom and sharing it with us today.

Glad to be with you guys, and thank you very much for the opportunity.

Yes. And we will leave a link below with a way for you guys to ask more questions so that when we have more of these ask a therapist question and answer sessions, we can get some of yours out there and answered. All right, thank you. We'll see you again soon. You've been listening to Finding Noble. I'm Carly Red. Follow Finding Noble on all available podcast directories and find out more on our website, findingnobel.com that's finding Noble. N O B L E dot com and if you or anyone close to you are looking for further resources on young adult and adolescent mental health, Dr. Skinner and a host of other leading professionals working in the mental health world share courses and even answer your questions all on parentguidance.org that is parentguidance.org brought to you by the Cook center for Human Connection.