Betrayal Withdrawal: When Sexual Secrecy Creates Emotional Abandonment (Episode #135)

There's something about you that I can't help but smile when you smile and laugh when you laugh.

Something's around you. Welcome to the Human Instincts Podcast. Dr. Kevin Skinner with Marianne Michaelis, licensed clinical social worker. Today, we are going to be talking about one of the more important topics that I've been seeing recently with clients and in situations throughout my career. And it's this: when the betraying spouse has pulled away emotionally, physically, spiritually, in so many ways, and the person who is being betrayed but doesn't know they're being betrayed is really struggling. Like, why can't we connect? And so with those introduction thoughts, Marianne, your initial thoughts.

My initial thoughts on this, Dr. Skinner, is I think this is part of the equation that feels crazy. Betrayed partners so many times are saying like, what's going on? I don't understand. And in my own experience and with a lot of my clients, what I'll hear my clients come in and say is something feels off. There's this distance. And for me, that right there is a huge red flag where we have to say, okay, this is where, boy, I want you to trust your gut. I want you to listen to yourself because if something doesn't feel quite right, There's probably a reason and you're probably not crazy. And you're probably saying, hey, what's going on? Is everything okay? And if your partner says, yeah, everything's okay, that's gaslighting because your body and every signal that you're seeing is saying there's a big disconnect here. Something's off. No, everything's fine. And then you hear that and you think, oh, I must be wrong. This is where betrayed partners start to distrust themselves. They start to abandon themselves. They abandon What their body's telling them, what their emotions are telling them, because they want to preserve this relationship and believe and trust their partner who's saying everything's fine.

And for me, Marianne, I wanna go back in this relationship where I've observed it from sometimes as early as the very beginning, from the honeymoon or early on. I ask about the sexual history timelines. That's one of the things I do as a therapist. Like, let's walk through your sexual history timeline. And what I find is there's times where people emotionally pulled away as early as the honeymoon and their spouse is like, I thought men wanted to have sex. I thought that's what we would be doing. I thought that's what was going to be happening. And what's wrong with me? Why? I mean, I talked with my friends and they're having sex frequently and here we are. And I'm like, is there something wrong with me? And sometimes I've seen that in therapy that has lasted for years. Year after year after year. It's like, I tried this and I tried this and I tried the lingerie and I tried this and it didn't matter. I was simply, felt rejected. I felt like there was some, must be something wrong with me. So painful, especially when they discover. So painful.

Right. I think you said, let's go back. And I think this is probably something that Oftentimes it's showing up in the dating relationship, but maybe when we're not together all of the time, it's a little bit easier to ignore or to, or to minimize away. I think maybe minimization we should talk about here, because I think oftentimes, because we're usually loving people and we want to see the best in this person that I care about, that I'm sharing my life with, we make excuses.

Oh.

They're tired. Oh, they're stressed. Oh, it must be that. It must be this. And I think there's also a place where we don't know how to confront it, or we may be afraid to confront it because if I do confront it, what do I do? If I confront it, what do I do then? So instead I excuse it. I rationalize it. I minimize it.

And you're speaking from the betrayed partner's mindset there. I wanna speak to it from the person who's acting out for just a second as well.

Yeah.

Because the person who's acting out, you ask the question like, why am I holding back? Because that's, that's a question I often will ask my clients. Like, why did you hold back from connecting with your spouse? So usually we're going to start with shame, but sometimes it's the idea that my spouse is too good for me to engage this. So I feel guilty trying to connect because I'm not worthy of them. Maybe the Madonna complex. So there's something there where I'm holding back, withholding, because I don't feel worthy. Shame. And so the acting out then is not because you're not enough, not because I think there's something wrong with you, it's because of me.

I don't have the scientific research-based terms for this, but I also think that there is energy. And the way that I view porn or sexual acting out, oftentimes the behaviors that my clients share with me, the ways that they act out sexually, are in ways that exploit other human beings.

Hmm.

Where things are done maybe without their consent, like through porn. There are things that are dark that carry what I'd call maybe a really heavy energy. And, and so when we're talking about this, This this distance that's there. Yes, I agree. Oftentimes it might be shame, but I also think that there is energy that is that when I'm consuming that, it's not filling me with light. It's not filling me with love. It's not filling me with goodness. And and so that is reflected in how I'm interacting with other people. And so whether it's on a I don't know if I want to say like a psychic space. I don't know what to call it, but there is there is an energy I think that. That we can't touch or we can't feel, like we can't feel it with our hands, but I think we feel it when we attune. And so if I'm filling myself up with, with the exploitation of other people sexually, that has to impact me psychically or spiritually in, in a deep way. And I do think that's reflected out as well.

So from Lawrence TrendCredy in one of his books, I actually quoted him in my book, Rebuild Your Relationship After Sexual Betrayal. In his book, he actually talks about the research that shows that there are 4 core hormones, 2 of which are bonding and 2 of which are lust-based. And when we look at it from the context of oxytocin and vasopressin, that those are the bonding hormones, also known as the trust hormones, the love hormones, where we feel bonding and attaching to other people. And he says simultaneously, we have these lust hormones and those lust hormones Can be actually increased to the point where we no longer have a deeper desire for connection, he said in the research. So the oxytocin and vasopressin may be released, but they can be dampened by the excessive amount of the lust hormones. I think that's part of what we're talking about here is I have so much of the lust that my desire for connection goes down because the lust has been excessive. That's a scientific explanation in some cases. of why people hold back because they're getting so much of the lust hormones that the bonding hormones— anyway, I thought that was a fascinating thing. I put it in my book, Rebuild Your Relationship After Sexual Betrayal, because it was so profound when I read it.

I think you also addressed that in your Treating Sexual Addiction: A Compassionate Approach, because I often cite that and use that with a lot of my clients as well. And so thank you. That's great to put the science behind it as well. I just have seen it. I think it's felt as a betrayed partner. It's something that you feel, you can't touch, but there it is.

It's a withdrawal. It's a withdrawal of affection. It's a withdrawal of warmth. It's a withdrawal and leaving the partner saying, what is wrong? And as I work with individuals, I'm no longer surprised by it when I hear Like, who was initiating sex? Well, I was trying to initiate sex, but they weren't interested in it. And that sounds so counter to what our culture says, you know, the men always want sex or the person who's acting out always wants sex. That may be true. And there are other cases where they've completely pulled away, rejected, abandoned physically, emotionally in ways that they feel completely rejected. And this is to our listeners and those who are watching. I'd like to provide the other side of the coin to this. What do you do when you have been there? How do you transition out of that pattern into a relationship that is now more present? And we're learning how to connect maybe for the first time in a deeper way than where we've been.

Yeah. I think what I wanna comment on this, Dr. Skinner, is maybe just before the what do you do, I think it's important to notice what did I do? In the previous relationship, because in this dynamic, usually with this betrayed partner, they are saying, hey, something's off. Let me seek, let me pursue, let me reach out. Let me go and try and try for connection. And because I think there's 2 options, there's the, let me try and connect. And then oftentimes there may be this frustration, which is I'm done. I can't do this anymore. And then there's a turning away.

Mm-hmm.

And there may be a big rift that happens and it gets bigger and bigger and bigger because there's a point where your body and your mind, where you say, I can't continue to do this because it's making me crazy. I can't.

I can't continue to be rejected. Oh, I can't. I can't and won't do it anymore.

So I might be angry. I might be lashing out. I might have rage, or I might just turn off because it's too hard.

And then when We've talked about this in marital therapy. You have a pursuer and a distancer. The person, the partner who's being betrayed, but didn't know it, pursue, pursue, pursue, eventually hopelessness. Like, why am I going to do this? And in that pulling away, and sometimes in discovery, and sometimes in the anger of this discovery, like all that time you were flying solo sexually and you, right? And you abandoned me. That I can see why that's enraging. Right. And now you want connection. And now you wanna be with me? That's why this is so complicated in helping couples heal, because they've been doing this dance. And yet there's a deep longing in many betrayed partners to be wanted, to be validated, to be accepted. And so I long for it, and yet I'm angry that you deprived me of that for so long.

And what you just said, I long for this. I am seeking you out. I am seeking connection. I'm giving bids for connection like crazy. And they're not going anywhere. And so then I'm giving up and going the other way, but still with that longing, we're just talking about a big, huge pile of longing. And I see it almost as we're, what we're trying to say here is, is there a bridge back? Is there a bridge back over this chasm of grief and longing?

And this is not a fast process because what we're going to be talking about here, and I mean, I don't want to sugarcoat it. This is a lengthy process of rebuilding that type of connection and intimacy in some situations where they maybe never had it, or they had it, then it was gone. And now we're trying to figure it out. For me, it all begins with honesty and truth. But like, that's why a disclosure, that's why an impact letter, that's why emotional restitution has to create a foundation that we understand. Can you imagine the betraying spouse saying, and I pulled away sexually, I abandoned, I rejected, I wasn't warm. Can you imagine that as a part of the emotional restitution? That's why it's so incredibly important to own, this is how I am aware that I hurt you.

And I, and I think this is so important because so many times I'll have the betraying partner say, okay, well, I stopped the behaviors. I'm here now. Let's connect. But what you and I are talking about is great. You're turning around saying, hey, let's connect. And there is such a big chasm here that's been created by this distance, by this disconnection. Because what I want to maybe add onto this is usually if that disconnection is happening, I think we also usually see irritability, frustration. Why are you bugging me? Why won't you leave me alone? There's a lot of dynamics that are often happening here. It's not just— Just a simple disconnect. There's often a lot of other emotions that are not healthy. A lot of emotional dysregulation going on here. Oftentimes it feels like it's kind of like this black hole of just sucking into the person who's acting out. They don't have energy where there's giving, where there's connecting, engaging. It is so sucking in. And oftentimes I'll hear clients say like they're doing video games and they're just— Not present at all.

Self-focused. So focused, self-focused is what you're describing there.

Yes. And so training is saying, okay, great. I'm here. I'm stopping the behaviors. I'm doing some therapy. I'm ready to connect. And the betrayed partner's like, oh, there is so much that needs to heal to get to that connection place.

And that space is something that I've been talking about with one of my groups is a sense of loneliness. Like, like, what Wait, I'm doing better. Like, I mean, we're working recovery and there's a sense of loneliness now because I'm not acting out in that fantasy world that I'm creating. And now this gap between what I was doing and what I'm now saying I want, and that is not instantly gonna come back into play. It just isn't. And that is a process, especially if you're the betrayed. Like, how do I know you've stopped? And even if you have stopped, like, I'm angry that you were gone for so long. When we could have had so much more deep and rich connection. That's where the pain seems to be, and at least in the people that I work with, so present every day. It's like, are we going to connect? Are you going to be there for me? Using Sue Johnson's language, are you going to be there now? Are you going to be there this time? And if you go away again, I don't know if my heart can handle it.

Right.

And so of course there's hesitancy. Because it's a tremendous risk to be able to say, I'm going to open my heart up again and please don't break it again. So—

I want to go back to your earlier question then when we're, 'cause I think it's really important to understand where we've been, where, what's been happening there. And for us just to really lay it out and spell it out, this is the hard work of repair. And as you said, it takes a really long time. And so then when we're saying, okay, where have I been? As that betrayed partner, it is important for me to realize and say, have I been that pursuer? And what is maybe my scar tissue that I've got around that? What does it take for me to be able to step into a place to start to even trust when my partner turns towards me that I can say, okay, let me, let me let down my walls. Let me even try to be open to connecting here because I've got a lot of baggage probably just surrounding that, around the pain of the abandonment that's been occurring, even though we may have never even called it that before.

So I have 2 thoughts on that. One is specifically when we do an impact letter as a part of this 3-part process, that impact letter often can include the feelings of rejection, giving that part a voice because Somebody has to witness that pain. And if the betraying spouse can finally witness that pain of how they're pulling away manifest and how it influenced their partner, that's part number one is who's witnessed that pain and really sat with it. So we need, especially if you're the betraying spouse, to witness that pain. That's why we do an impact letter. And that's so incredibly important. So that's part number one. But when you are hearing that what you've created is this place of pain for your spouse, you may be witnessing it. If you can't stay present with it, then that's another form of abandonment. And so it's like, I'm asking you to be vulnerable. And can you hold the pain that was created by your disappearance, by your lack of connection? Can you hold that pain? That's why you have to be emotionally to the point where you can handle that without going into your shame. Otherwise, what happens, Marianne, is it feels like another rejection.

Oh, 100%.

Where did you go?

I came to you with all of these emotions and then you got swallowed up in your shame because all you keep thinking is what a horrible person I am. How could I do that? And it's all about you again. Why would I even bother? To try to connect here. Because once again, it's not about me, it's about you.

Which leads me to maybe a third concept here is most couples can't do this part on their own because it's so intense and it's so difficult. And that's why learning how to deal with the shame, learning how to stay present with your partner's pain, that this is actually one of the key reasons why I developed the Intimacy Repair Method. I mean, it really is because I know that there's crucial conversations, crucial moments, And the topic we're talking about today, if you're listening to this, I'm going to guess many of you, if not most of you know exactly what we're talking about. You're like, oh my gosh, yes. You guys are giving a voice to what I've experienced.

And I would call it raw pain because a lot of times, as you said, we are giving voice to it. This isn't a topic that we hear about very often. This isn't one that we talk about very often. And oftentimes I think this is where a skilled clinician or therapist can say, hey, I wonder if it's this. And suddenly it's like a bubble coming up to the surface. Oh yes, that's exactly what it is. But I didn't recognize it before. I didn't have the words to even call it, or even I wasn't able to recognize it. And here it is. And yes, now it's fresh, fresh and deep. And there's so much pain with it.

And so when couples heal, when they work through this process, Again, I don't want to put a timeframe on it because every moment could, can be a healing moment, or it can be a moment of more fracture. I mean, every moment we have choice, we have how we're going to respond. So learning how to deal with shame, learning how to stay present with your partner's pain, skill and skill, learning how to do those things, but being able to be accountable and acknowledging and that kind of awareness, that's again, some of the foundation that has to be created. So when we're trying to reconnect, We know how to do that. The next part of that is having a community. If you're the person who's acted out and you weren't present or you were pushing your partner away, you still have to have a tribe of people, people who you can connect to, to help you through those moments where your spouse doesn't want to connect. They don't want to be sexual because they're hurt in their wounds. And having your people that you can talk to and reach out to and get support when your spouse is not available is also an important part of this process. So do you have people that you can reach out to, or are you still flying solo, feeling isolated, feeling rejected, feeling like the victim of your spouse who's no longer available?

What I'm hearing you talk about is this is, these are skills and these are muscles that have to be built. So learning to talk to our spouse about it, we're going to be awkward. We're going to be clumsy. We're not going to have the right words. We might get frozen and we'll probably do it wrong.

Hmm.

I expect that with my clients. So when a betraying partner is there coming and saying like, hey, let me try and hold your pain. Let me be here with you. Let me do this. They may or may not get it right. They may or may not say the right words or something may be triggering. And this is the ebb and flow of The work of a relationship. And so if they're trying and they're not getting it right, absolutely, they need to have a group where they can go back and say, this really hurt. This was really hard. And they get the support and they work through it and they figure out, oh, here's where maybe I— yeah, I didn't realize when I said it that way, how minimizing that might be. And oh, I can hear that. That was the wrong thing to say.

Yeah.

And now I can come back and say, let me try again. Because we're building muscles and skills, and this does not happen with one conversation. It doesn't happen overnight. It is over and over and over again. From my own experience, Dr. Skinner, my husband and I usually like to walk in the morning. And we've done that for years and years and years, but there have been mornings when things haven't gone quite right with the conversation. And one of us has had to say, you know what? I'm going to go around the block this way. I need a little bit of time to think, to process, and I need a little bit of space because things haven't gone, but then we come back.

Yeah.

How do we talk through that? But we all need spaces and time to work through where we don't get it right, because this is vulnerable and it's hard. We're dealing with PTSD triggers and we're dealing with not knowing how to do this.

And what you're describing here is being comfortable with disconnection.

Yeah.

So we have to be comfortable with that disconnected state where we, again, I think this is a part of life. We won't always be connected. And while we're disconnected, not feeling like I did, I married the wrong person or they don't care or they don't love me. It's if we're trying and we're working, we're We're going to make steps and then we're going to have things that didn't go well and we're going to have setbacks. Are we committed to the process of change? Are we willing to stick in there and say, we will figure out solutions. I don't know them right now, but we will figure them out. That is why we tell people this takes time. It's not rushed. You can't just get there.

And those stories that you said that we're telling ourselves, they can feel so valid in that moment. And that is why we need People that we can call and say, this just happened because we need people, I think, to also call us out a little bit, to call us back to reality, to help us see things. When we are emotionally charged, it's hard to see things clearly. And so having the people that can help us talk through, get us back to a place where we are ready to be relational, we need that. So then we can step back into the relationship.

Yeah. So a couple of final thoughts today, Marianne. What we're talking about today is a very common issue. So if you've experienced this and you relate to it, please share it with your friends. I say that because there's so many times where we share something like this and then like, oh, I shared this with a friend and they're starting to understand. I'm gonna tell you, today's topic is one of the more common ones that I've seen, especially as I do deeper work with couples in intensives. It's just there, Marianne.

So Dr. Skinner, before we wrap up then, I'm putting you on the spot, but I think we need to find a name for this. So if we're saying, talk like, like, let's put this on the table and let's start addressing it. What are we calling this?

So Marianne, I think what we're going to call that is betrayal withdrawal. How does that sound to you?

For our listeners and viewers, Dr. Skinner and I actually paused this for a minute and we, we really batted around, what do we call this? And, and of everything, that we've talked about calling this. I can't find better words. When I am betraying my partner, I withdraw from my partner and my partner feels that and they feel rejected and abandoned. I think giving this the name of betrayal withdrawal.

Yeah. And the steps then necessary, because it's interesting because it is a continuation The betraying partner withdrew. Now the betrayed partner withdraws. And so this play on words, it's both, both directions. Like, I'm withdrawing 'cause I don't feel safe. I'm withdrawing because I was in my shame or acting out. And now we're trying to help this couple stop withdrawing and learn to reconnect again. So stay tuned to our listeners. Our goal is to help you create healing after these experiences so you can find the kind of relationship that you long for the most. Those are my final thoughts, Marianne. How about you?

I think this has been a really important conversation. I know it's not one that we've talked about before, and I'm really grateful that we've had a chance to really discuss it, shine some light on it, and even say, hey, here's what we want to call this because it's real. And betrayal trauma Work. This is such a new field and we're constantly grappling, trying to say, how do we understand this? How do we make sense of this? And so I think today in this episode, we are saying, here's one facet that we hope makes more sense for you. And we're recognizing it, that this is really addressing the withdrawal that happens in the relationship, which is a deep, deep, deep, deep attachment wound. Because what, as human beings, we long for and we need is connection. And we turn to our relationships for that. So I am really grateful for this conversation today. Thank you, Dr. Skinner.

Thank you, Marianne. To our listeners, thank you so much for being with us. May you be blessed that you've been listening to the Human Intimacy Podcast with Dr. Kevin Skinner and Marianne Michels. Have a great week, everybody.

Thank you.