When Your Partner Won’t Engage in Healing: Finding Clarity When Values and Recovery No Longer Align (Episode 136)

There's something about you that I can't help but smile when you smile and laugh when you laugh.

Something surrounds you. Welcome to the Human Intimacy Podcast. Dr. Kevin Skinner with Marianne Michaelis. Today, Marianne, our topic is for individuals who are struggling to get information. They're maybe they're, or their spouse is not engaging. in the recovery and the healing process. And so they're kind of left to themselves trying to figure out, what do I do? Your initial thoughts, Marianne?

Well, Dr. Skinner, because this is a podcast where we're talking about healthy intimacy, we're talking about how to turn toward our partners, how to connect, how to engage, how to have a healthy relationship moving forward. I think this is a really important topic because What we're going to talk about today really focuses on what happens. Betrayal, first of all, is such a huge attachment wound and rupture in a relationship. And so, you know, we focus oftentimes on the betrayal and on the couple that's healing after the betrayal. But today we're also talking about some of the things, not just with the betrayal that occurs in the relationship, but sometimes there are some pretty big shifts that also occur in the relationship. And my hope today is that we're going to be a validating voice and talking about some of the topics that maybe aren't talked about as often or as frequently. And also with that validation, giving some compassion and also some insight and some support.

So as an example, you may be a spouse who has discovered that your partner's been acting out. They don't want to address anything. That would just be one example. And and so you're left to yourself like what happened? What if I don't get information? What if I don't get that information? Or perhaps they've changed their values. They no longer espouse the same. Maybe it's a religious belief, or they don't no longer believe that whatever the sexual behavior is is even a problem. What do I do in a case when I I want to hold to my core beliefs and values, and my spouse has changed. And this is not an uncommon thing in our society. I think we're seeing more and more of it.

Right. And this is another type, I think, of a betrayal, or it can be felt and sensed like that. So if I had some experiences in my childhood and said, I don't want this when I get into a relationship and was very, very intentional About who I chose to be in a relationship with, felt really good about it. We're really aligned. We have the same values. We have the same goals and the same dreams. And then there's betrayal that comes up. And then my partner says, well, yeah, this maybe has been going on all along. And I want to hold onto it because I like this.

Hmm.

Right there, we have this really big shift in What do I do? Where do I go from here? So we can be talking about beliefs and values that may or may not have to do with sex or sexuality, but there can also be a big shift of, I no longer want to live this way that we had agreed to.

Mm-hmm.

Or I want to move forward and my partner has brought behaviors into the relationship that I don't feel comfortable with. What do I do with this? How do I move forward? If my partner doesn't want to embrace recovery, or if they just have decided that they have a different value system than I have. This is really perplexing. And that's the— this feels like another betrayal. I thought we were in this together. I thought we had mutual goals and now we don't. And now what does that mean?

And I have observed that many in my career, many individuals have experienced this type of shift in perception, values, experiences. What I used to believe was maybe wrong, now I don't. Or now, you know, you used to engage in this with me. I, one common one that I've seen is that maybe earlier in their relationship, they were pretty open sexually. And then one spouse says, you know, I, you know, we're having children. I want to settle down. And now that we're settling down, I don't want to engage in those types of sexual behaviors. Or activities. And so now it's the other partner saying, wait, this is what we were doing and now we're not. And so I've seen it where people shift with maybe more responsibility, children coming into the home, a job or something. And it's like, wait a second, I want to shift to more traditional values that I used, that used to be important to me. And then I, or I let go of those for a period of time. So again, I think it's a wide range here, Marianne, of shifting.

Right. And I want to validate this. As you were talking about that, I was just thinking about my own life early in our marriage. When I was younger, I loved to go whitewater rafting in some pretty crazy whitewater that, you know, was very potentially dangerous. And there, like, I didn't mind some things that were a little bit more extreme. Like, this is great. And then I had kids and suddenly my whole world shifted. And I said, like, hold on a second. I, I want to be around for my kids. And so these things that, that I had more abandon with suddenly shifted and changed. And it didn't have anything to do with sexuality, but I'm saying, I think that shift can be pretty normal because as you said, we have more responsibilities. Life changes and suddenly we see the world in a different way. I want to be around for my kids. So I needed to change and said, nah, I'm maybe not going to engage in the same things that I used to. And so just in a normal life process, I think this can happen, but we're also talking about then in the sexual relationship as well.

Yeah. And I think it's more difficult when it has more meaning to it. Like, like I'm no longer whitewater rafting versus my sexuality is like, I no longer feel sexually that this is even in. And so maybe I used to believe that, say for example, viewing pornography was an issue. Now I don't believe it's an issue. Or I used to, you know, think that, you know, just being out there openly sexual was not that big of a deal. And now it's like, wait a second, I don't want to engage in those sexual behaviors. And so I've seen it both directions as a clinician throughout my career, but it really begs the question of what does it do to the relationship? If you're the partner, you're either looking for, are we on the same plane? Do we share these same values or no longer share those values? And furthermore, where we started, like there's times where I think we have shared values, but I don't know what your values are and you won't talk with me about it. That's also frustrating because now I can't, how do I put closure on something that I don't yet understand?

And I think as we're talking about people who are developing, because I think we're developing all of our lives, as we're developing, most of the time, I think It's not usually this cut dry, here's where I am. We're talking oftentimes about evolution where, hmm, like maybe I'm not sure what I think or how I feel. Maybe I'm not 100% sure. And like, I may engage in this, but wait, I do really want this relationship with you. I do really cherish this. And this is okay for me too. And so kind of like saddling two sides of something and And so what I'm saying is sometimes we get to a point where it's very definitive, but most of the time I think there's a progression and that can be so confusing for the coupleship and the betrayed partner, because I don't like, just tell me yes or no. Are you, you know, where are you? But most of the time I don't think it's that cut and dry.

As people try to figure out, as their values change, they may not know, or they may be afraid to open up and talk about it. And so now there's this chasm between them because we're not talking about it, but I feel something's off. And many times when I'm talking with people, they're like, I just want to know. I just want to know what you think. I want to know what you feel. Well, sometimes they don't know themselves. And that's something that they have to be able to pause and reflect and really get that personal insight. What is it that I'm feeling? What is it that I'm thinking about myself and our relationship? And that's the other thing. Sometimes people shift out of a relationship For whatever reason, maybe it's because my spouse, you know, isn't meeting a need. And so they think that they need to leave. And the challenge of that one is when they pause and really reflect, they don't realize what they're giving up. I've had situations where people are like, you know, it seems like the grass is greener on the other side. And so they think their values are shifting. And then all of a sudden they get a cold bucket of ice water thrown on and they're like, what in the world was I thinking? And so there's a mix there of people who are like, maybe I don't have these values. Well, yes, I do have these values. And so it's like a yo-yo. And if you're the spouse there, you're like, what in the world is going on here? And that is a very common occurrence.

And I think that puts that questioning, wondering spouse, the one that's saying, what is going on here, into a place where, as you said, they can either pursue And really attack and really go at it. What's going on? Or I think a lot of times what I see with my clients is I see avoidance when I bring it up. Maybe the interactions aren't healthy. My spouse might be defensive because they're figuring it out or they feel shame or they don't know.

Yeah.

And so I think a lot of times I see clients who will say, I'm walking on eggshells. I don't wanna address it. It's easier for me to maybe live in more of a roommate mode or just to ignore and pretend like it's not going on, because if I do bring it up, it might all come to a head and I might lose this relationship and things might be definitively said or decided. And I'm not ready for that.

Right.

And so it's easier for me to maybe suffer in silence and avoid that. Then actually having that conversation is the— this may be one of the belief systems that I often see in my office around this.

And then it really boils down to, in my mind, when I have clients come to me in this situation, they're so confused by their spouse's behavior, or maybe they're the person who's shifting their values. Like, I don't even know what I believe anymore. And my assignment in all of those situations is just pause and do a self-reflection of what are your core values? Like, what kind of a relationship do I want? And how do I want to show up? What are my values? Me, like, what are my beliefs? Do I think this is a problem? Do I not think it's a problem? That kind of clarity is actually part of the answer to the question. You need clarity. You need to understand yourself well enough to say, I know who I am. It goes back to our conversation on differentiation that we've had on the podcast. Do you really understand yourself? And if you don't, then your spouse, they're gonna be in this world of like, it's like a yo-yo. You're all over the place. And steadiness helps our nervous system. And when our nervous system can't predict and it doesn't make sense, if you tell me, and I've had many betrayed partners say, if my spouse tells me what they're doing and I understand, it helps me immensely. The deception, the lies, hidden behaviors, I can't deal with not knowing or hidden behaviors. I need to really know what's going on.

And I think this is a process that takes a lot of time. I think one thing I want to add to this conversation is if a couple can get to a place where they can say, this is the problem. You're not the problem. I'm not the problem. Let's put our heads together and let's identify what are the challenges that we've got here. And can we have a conversation about them? Can we begin to troubleshoot them together? This is a different space because I think we're talking about conflicts in relationship that often seem unsolvable. And sometimes they are. I know sometimes in working with couples, we'll say, it doesn't sound like you guys have the same value system. So what does that mean for you? Can you continue to have a relationship together? And that's going to be some difficult And possibly painful conversations or very constructive conversations. So this is your value and this is my value. Can we still maintain a relationship if we have a difference in values? And if so, how do we work around them? And so what does that mean?

And I think, Marianne, the really important part there is, can we have the conversation or is information still being withheld? If you really want to talk about anything that's really critical, if you're hiding information or if you're not divulging the full truth, then really you're holding back is harming your spouse or harming your partner, probably as much as the behavior itself that you're considering. Am I going to engage in this behavior or not engage in this behavior? And my bigger concern here is healthy couples have to have hard conversations. And in this situation, your values, maybe they are shifting and maybe they're not aligned the way that they used to be. But can we talk about it? And can we agree that there's going to be times where no, we're not going to agree. And I have to say, it hurts that you've chosen this pathway. And now I have to make a decision. Am I going to stay? Am I not going to stay? And if I choose to stay, it's because I understand the information. I understand what's going on. And if I don't stay, It's because we don't share the same values, and that too has to be okay. I've seen couples do both. I've seen couples who've— maybe they are no longer sharing the values, but they're staying in the relationship. It's cordial. It's not as connecting as it could be. I've seen that. And I've seen people come to that conclusion, like, our values are no longer aligned, and that has to be okay. And I still care about this person, but we don't share the same values. And I don't wanna be in a relationship like that. So I've seen it go both ways.

So if I were listening to this, Dr. Skinner, I think I might be questioning and saying, so how do I figure out what my values are? Because I think that's what we're talking about here. And I think this is such an important part of work for any couple or any individual. This is something that I really work with my clients really hard on, of looking and saying like, What am I not okay with in the relationship? Making a list or just in my life, what am I not okay with? And that might be, I'm not okay with my partner being dishonest with me. I'm not okay with my partner cheating on me. Those might be some really basic ones. And so I might look at that and say, then what are the things that I really need? Well, I need a partner who's going to show up and take accountability. I'm going to need a partner who's going to be faithful to me. And so those working with that, that's going to then help me figure out my value. My value is that honesty. My value is that faithfulness. And so then when I'm looking and saying, or at least as I work through this with my clients, I really invite them to write this out and then for them to really say the words out loud that they've written down and see, how does that feel inside my body? Does that resonate with me? Does that feel like my truth?

Yeah.

Because we want to work from a place of what feels right for me. How do I want to live my life? Because that's what we're talking about. How do I live my life? And if my partner chooses to live their life a completely different way, that's really good information that then I have to take back and say, can I live with my partner according to my values? Because if I'm not living by my own values, And I'm going to be betraying myself. And there's intense pain that comes with that. There's intense wounding when I'm not even being true to myself. Yeah.

And I want to speak to the other side of this. Like, as an individual is in a state of trying to figure out their values, and maybe they've been the person maybe in this situation acting out. And initially they may have said, you know, I, you know, in the middle of it, they're like, I loved this affair partner, or I loved this sexual behavior. And then as they step back and reflect and maybe get more insight of themselves and what they really care about, their real values, those earlier statements are hard to pull back. Like, wait a second, you said you love this person or you cared about this person. And so you cared about these acts. Well, really? Well, I know that I can when I'm acting out in that mindset, but now as I reflect, this is truly the person I want to be. And so can we allow people to shift or change? Can we allow them to really come back to themselves, as is often said? I think about the father whose son took half the inheritance, the prodigal son. And I think about the riotous living and that mindset of like, I'm going to go do this and all of that. And yes, he had spent everything. And yes, he was eating with the pigs. But he came to himself and he woke up. And I think about that story in the context of, you know, do people hit that bottom, that proverbial bottom? Is that what it takes? Sometimes yes. And sometimes people realize earlier before, you know, it's too late or too long. And they're like, I don't, I don't want this lifestyle. I want to be different. And yet I struggle to change. It's not that their values have changed. They're struggling to overcome behaviors. That's also a different story. So we have to understand really ourselves well enough to say, I have to define myself. And that's really the core of what I hope our listeners are getting from this is if there's value differences, step back and pause. Are we aligned? I love it when they realign themselves and say, you know what? I was off balance. Like a car that's out of alignment. It was not good. And now I'm trying to align my life with the character that I want to be, and this is the person I wanna show up. That's the person I see make a lot of progress in themself and in their relationships.

I think this comes back to the concept we were talking about a little bit earlier of the progression, of the timing, of how this doesn't usually happen exactly overnight. When we're talking about addiction or unwanted sexual behaviors, We're often talking about what's going on in the mind. And we use words like sobriety. Oftentimes we don't think very much about them, but when we slow it down and look at that, what we're saying is if we're stoned, if we're drunk, we're under the influence of something and our mind is not working properly. We're not making really good decisions. And when we're talking about sexual acting out behaviors or addictions with, with Related to sexual behaviors. In that same way, we are not thinking clearly and we're not sober. And so I know chapter 1 of Dr. Carnes's book, Facing the Shadows, talks about how it can feel like you've got a Dr. Jekyll, Mr. Hyde, 2 completely different personalities. And that's what I was hearing you talk about is—

Mm-hmm.

I might be in this mindset where I'm not thinking clearly. In 12-step tradition, we often call it stinking thinking. I have a lot of distorted thoughts where I've rationalized behaviors. I've justified behaviors usually to deal with the shame or the self-loathing or the self-judgment, or just to deal with the voices in my head. And so I've numbed things. I've pushed things away. So I've been acting in these behaviors and I've told myself stories so that I can look in the mirror. And as we begin to work through Recovery work, those shifts happen. And once again, the 12 steps, they talk about a spiritual awakening. And so often, as you were talking about that prodigal son waking up and saying like, oh my goodness, let me come to myself. That is often part of the process. But it doesn't always mean that when our partner does their work and begins recovery work, sometimes at that point, their values change even further. And I, I often have betrayed partners who will say, I'm also afraid that if my partner really takes off and does their work, what if they don't want me anymore? And so there's, there's fear on that side of it as well.

Yeah. Like if they don't do that work, they're going to continue in a deceptive place where you won't see them. You won't know them. And that is a form of denial. Like, I don't want to see what you're really struggling with. I don't want to understand that. And it's, it may be, it is because of a fear that you will leave me or you will abandon me. And yet in so many ways they already have.

And I think this is what we talked about in our previous podcast, that betrayal withdrawal where you're there, but you're just not really there. You're just connected. You're not present. I think if I were to maybe summarize some of our key concepts we're talking about today, we're talking about the process that this takes time, the importance of that, figuring out what are my values? What do I need? We're also talking about the really important conversations that we need to figure out how to have.

So for me, if you are the person who's looking for your spouse to give you information, so maybe they've been avoiding difficult conversations or they Keep putting it off. Like, I don't know. I don't know what I, I don't know. Then the conversation, if I was role-playing with this, is, okay, I've thought about this. And when we talk about it, it seems like you have a lot of I don't know statements, or you seem to be struggling with it. Can I ask you to reflect on this? Because this is really important about our relationship and moving forward. I just want to know whether our relationship works out or not. And I've, and I will role-play this with people, whether it works out or not. I want a relationship filled with honesty and truth. And honestly, if you choose to go down that pathway, I can't stop that. And I'm not gonna try to stop that. I need you to figure out how you're gonna show up. I need you to figure that out. I know what I want. If I want the relationship, I want the relationship. But what I don't want is a relationship where there's lots of question marks and I don't really know you. And so I want an intimate relationship where we can be seen. And I invite you to think about that, if that's the kind of relationship that you want or not. As hard as it is for me to say this, where we've been has been so painful. It's been so difficult. And I don't want to be in that kind of a difficult relationship. So I invite you to consider what kind of marriage you want. That was a role play.

Those are really hard questions. That's a really hard conversation. And if I'm— as I listened to you, I thought if I were the betrayed partner, thinking about some clients that I've worked with where Their partner has said, I don't think this is an issue and I want to continue embracing it. And my clients who've done a lot of work figuring out this is not okay for me, and these are the reasons why, what that conversation might mean is, okay, how does this mean that our relationship's over now? Because what are my options if I don't condone the behaviors? If your behaviors won't work for me. If they don't feel healthy or safe or connecting for me, then what we're talking about might mean that this relationship can't work as we've—

Yeah, it could be the end of it.

It might be the end.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And again, as hard as that is, there's so much stress in really not knowing what your partner's feeling or thinking. The fact that they said, I wanna continue these behaviors, As strange as it may sound, thank you. Thank you for telling me the truth. Now I get to make a decision and I need to make that decision. And so a response to that may be, thank you for being honest. Now I need to go reflect on what that means. I don't know if I have the answer right now, but it may be the end of our relationship. And as hard as that is, I have to be okay with that because you've just told me where you're at. You've played your hand. You've told me the truth. In a non-shaming way, because I could shame them. Oh, you've changed your values. You don't do this. We don't share the same beliefs. That would be my natural angry response, which I get, but that's going to push them further away. So thank you for sharing that. Now I've got to make a decision. It hurts. It hurts deeply. So I'll be back in touch.

And boy, I'm going to have that anger. And I'm going to have all those emotions and I'm going to need healthy, safe places to process that through, to work through that. Because boy, is it hard when I've got all those emotions to not shame if I haven't worked through the emotions. And this feels like another bit, like as we're talking about more betrayal and grief and, oh, this conversation might mean that I have to face some of my worst fears. How do I—

Yeah.

How do I not be in this relationship now? And what does that mean for our kids and our livelihood and our future? And some of the biggest grief with betrayal is all of the hopes and dreams that now I have to grieve.

There is nothing easy about what we're talking about. And yet far too many people are currently living it, not knowing what to do. And so we stay in the same environment, fighting the same battles, struggling, same conversations. Almost begging our spouse, please come back to who you were. Please come back. Be that you that I met. Please be, be that person. And when you realize that you can't force it, you can't control it, you can't make them choose. The moment you, as somebody once said, if you love 'em, let 'em go. And if they love you, they'll come back. As hard as that is, that may be what it requires. So painful. So difficult. But you can't force someone to love you. And that's something I've learned over and over and over again. Either you're gonna choose to be a loving person and you're gonna love into this relationship, or you're not. And when you're not, when you're not, it's very painful cuz you're withholding, you're withdrawing. It's its own version of trauma.

Right. The Gottmans talk about a large majority of the conflicts in our relationship, we might not find resolutions for them, which means we have to figure out ways to negotiate around them and compromise around them. So I just want to make sure we're bringing that into this conversation. We have to figure out, can we compromise around this? And we might be able to, and we might not, but that's the conversations that we've got to learn how and figure out how to have these really crucial conversations.

And that final point is, I think maybe how I close today, because there are people who say, I now understand that our values are no longer aligned, but we are going to stay in this relationship. And at least I understand. And so there are no longer secrets. There's not that hidden information that's not being divulged. And I think that kind of honesty, at least I understand it rather than feeling like, what don't I know? And I think honesty, transparency in relationships, even if we don't share those values, it can go a long ways in at least helping us make sense of where we're at and what's happening.

And I can't agree with that more because that then lets me figure out if you're honest with me saying, here's where I'm at. And I don't ascribe to the same values as you. That gives me the information that I need then to start making sense of what does this mean for our children? So if we have children, how do we work through your values versus my values? And let's just be honest, most people come into their relationships with different values because they grew up in different homes. They grew up in different situations and so they see the world differently. Some are deal breakers, some might not be. But so if you have different values and I have different values around certain things, what do we teach our kids and how do we negotiate around that in a way, if we can, or can we negotiate around that in a way that isn't damaging to our children, that isn't creating an unsafe, unhealthy environment? Is there opportunity to still thrive and grow? In this space, if we are compromising and working through together, or is this the deal breaker that says, I can't do this? And I think we still have to figure out that same conversation. Even if we divorce or separate, how am I talking to my children about this? How are we doing this in a way that's not going to be more damaging to our children and the people around us? Yeah.

And I think the answer to that is the children need to know they're loved first and foremost, even if we aren't sharing values or we have differences, that love is always important. And then the next part of that is a sense of honesty of like, as your parents, we've come to realize that there's things that we no longer share the same beliefs in or the same values. And it doesn't mean that your mom or dad is not a good person. It's just, we no longer share these same same beliefs or values. And I want you to know that I love you and I know your parent loves you. I mean, that's a more mature way of doing it. Throwing them under the bus is not really good for the children. And so it's very important to be aware of that as well.

So I think today, Dr. Skinner, for my wrap-up, what I would just like to share is that I know this may have been a more difficult conversation that we've had today. And so I encourage our listeners or viewers To make sure that you're doing your self-care, make sure that you're reaching out to your support systems. And if you need to, I'll invite you to turn to your spouse or partner and say, what do you think about this? Where are we on this? What are the things that we need to maybe talk about that maybe we haven't talked about? And I'll also invite you to take a step into writing down, again, what are my values? What are the things that are really important to me? that really direct how I want to live my life and share them with your partner and start those conversations. Because once again, almost 70% of the conflicts need compromise. Thank you.

And thank you, Marianne. And to our listeners, thank you for being with us today. You've been listening to the Human Intimacy Podcast with Dr. Kevin Skinner and Marianne Michels. Have a great week and we'll look forward to Seeing you next week.